May 8, 2021 • 26 mins
What’s the biopsychosocial egg, what it means to “act as if” (plus Amy’s personal story of using this exercise!), and mantras for dealing with food and exercise guilt.
Follow Jennifer: @jennifer_rollin
Get her new book, The Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I won't let my body out me out well everything
that I'm made do. Won't spend my life trying to change.
I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who every part of me.
It's beautiful and I will always out way if you
(00:24):
feel it with joys in there, she's some love to
the boom there. Let's say good day and did you
and die out? All right? Amy here and Lisa and
I are super excited to be joined today by Jennifer Rowland.
She has been on Outwagh before and she's someone we
(00:44):
reference quite a bit here on Our Way and even
on my four Things podcast. I feel like I'm always
referring people to something that Jennifer has posted on Instagram
because I just feel like she uses Instagram. Well, it's
a powerful tool. Instagram is how I even connected with Lisa,
and Lisa opened me up to this whole world of
(01:04):
people that are really making an impact. I'm speaking from
someone who I know We've got a lot of listeners
that this is new information to them. But y'all have
really been digging deep in this stuff for quite some time,
and you've made it your life's mission to help people
in a different way, you know, and you're a eating
disorder therapist. There's other people that do work in your
(01:26):
field that I feel like sometimes you even have to
call them out. I just learned so much from what
you put on Instagram, which if people want to follow you,
you're at Jennifer Underscore roll in r O L L
I in. But we're extra excited to have you on
today because we're gonna be breaking down your new book,
which is called The Inside Scoop on Eating disorder Recovery,
(01:48):
and it's advice from two therapists who have been there
and out of the gate. Just let us know what
inspired you and Calleen to write this book. Why did
you want to put this out there? Because working on
Instagram and working with clients, which that's your main thing,
working the clients, that's a lot. But to take on
writing a book, that's a whole another animal. So why
was it important to you to do that? Yeah, So,
(02:10):
speaking of meeting people on Instagram, Colleen and I actually
met I want to stay on Instagram or Facebook many
years ago and became friends and we both kind of
came to the idea separately. It was actually very like
serendipitous where I had been thinking, you know, Colleen, like,
wouldn't it be so cool if we had a recovery
book that was kind of how to guide for people
(02:31):
and eating disort of recovery, where each chapter was a
different topic, And she's like, Jen, I've been working on
this book for like a couple of years actually, like
I had the same exact idea. So then a publisher
ended up reaching out to me randomly on Instagram a
couple of months after we started working on the outline,
and basically long roundabout way of saying, I wrote the
book because I personally struggled with the eating disorder and
(02:53):
my passion is really helping other people to recover, and
I saw this as another avenue to reach people who
maybe couldn't come to see me for therapy. Well, you
know something that I have really enjoyed as how y'all
did the book was you back it up with a
lot of research and it's very thoughtfully done. But every
once in a while you'll sprinkle in, you know, Colleen's
(03:14):
personal story or Jennifer's personal story, so then it makes
it so relatable and for certain people reading it, including myself,
it's like oh wow, Okay, there are others out there
that have the same things that I have going on
inside of my head. So I thought that was a
nice little touch that you know, is occasionally sprinkled in
and made it very, very very relatable. Yeah, that means
(03:37):
a lot, and we've gotten that feedback that people love,
like the personal antecdotes. We also tried to write it
in kind of like a snarky, sassy tones that it
wasn't like to make a serious topic kind of I
don't want to say fun, but relatable, to make it
sound like it was your best friends, kind of like
talking to you about recovery tips a little bit more
approachable as well. And I think a lot of people
(03:59):
really put therapists and maybe registered dietitians who work with
eating disorders on this pedestal. And by inserting your story
of I get it, I've been there, I know the struggle,
which is very I feel like different than perhaps how
you were like professionally trained to do business. And obviously
there's a perfect balance that you've found of sharing so
(04:19):
that it's helpful, not you know, over sharing. I personally
also find it really meticulously well done how you to
share and the fact that you really had the courage
to share and disrupt what's expected of therapists, because not
just for your own personal like, yeah, you did something big,
but for so many of our listeners. I think they're
(04:40):
afraid to knock on a therapist store. They think that,
you know, it comes with judgment, or they just don't
really know what to expect. Maybe, so I think softening
that and prying open that door a little bit to
your own life creates some safe place. Yeah, and that
was again like, really our intention was not to come
off as this traditional therapy where it's very stuffy, like
(05:02):
you're laying back on a couch, the person is a
blank slate. We wanted to, yeah, do exactly what you're
talking about, make people feel more open and more comfortable
with reaching out for help. So if people wanted to
pick up this book, and again it's called The Inside
Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, and on the cover it's
this really pretty pinkish purpleish color, but then there's a
(05:22):
big old ice cream scooper full of some vanilla ice
cream and so and then if you again, if you
follow Jennifer on Instagram too, I love the different you know,
yummy coffee posts and all the eating disorder recovery looks
like this, and she's doing like an amazing food post.
But who is this book for? And maybe who is
this book not for? Yeah, so we say it in
(05:43):
the book that this book is really for everyone. I
think I know myself, and from hearing a little bit
about both of your stories, I think it was similar
this idea of like I'm not sick enough, maybe I
haven't been professionally diagnosed. Maybe I'm not you know, in
a quote unquote underweight body. And so this book is
for everyone, for people who've been diagnosed with eating disorders,
(06:04):
for people who struggle with disordered eating, basically for anyone
who struggles in their relationship to food and their body,
because we wanted to debunk that myth about like what
it means to be like quote unquote sick enough. And specifically,
we hear a lot from our audience that they are.
When we talk about eating disorders, what they hear is restriction,
(06:24):
and that's not their problem. They struggle with binging over eating,
and sometimes the weight comes with it, sometimes it doesn't.
But would this book provide tools for somebody who is
struggling with the binge portion. Absolutely, and we've gotten that
question a fair bit, and we have a chapter on
binge eating disorder as well as orthorexia and trauma, so
(06:45):
we cover a whole host across the eating disorder spectrum.
One activity that I enjoyed doing was filling out my
bio psycho social egg so explain to people and obviously
they get the book they will have a better understand standing.
But I did think that that was an interesting activity
to have us do as we were working our way
(07:07):
through the beginning of the book, just so that we
understand our egg, and like, what does our egg have
to do with what's going on with us? Can you
explain why it's important for people to know their egg
and why you'll put that in there. Absolutely. So when
we think about eating disorders or other mental illnesses, it's
this saying where we say genetics loads the gun and
then environment pulls the trigger. So looking at your biopsychosocial
(07:31):
egg is looking at biological factors, right. So I happen
to have a close family member who had air XCO,
which I later learned temperamental factors. So there are some
personality traits like perfectionism, harm avoidance being a highly sensitive person.
And then lastly we look at environmental factors, so we
know oppression, you know, fat phobia, racism, trauma, going through
(07:55):
food and security. These are all things in our environment
which come together for that person who has maybe some
of the underlying genetics and some of the personality factors
which creates this eating disorder egg and ultimately causes it
to crack, which causes the eating disorder. If that makes sense,
It makes so much sense, and I think as it's
(08:15):
such a helpful way to really break down that eating
disorders aren't caused by one thing. And one word that
you just said that really spoke to me specifically was
it can be caused by trauma or trauma is one
of the things that can bring on an eating disorder
in conjunction with some other things. But a lot of
my clients and perhaps people you work with, some have
obvious trauma, such as you know, sexual trauma or emotional trauma,
(08:40):
but others aren't able to say I have had trauma
because they don't view their experience as quote unquote traumatic.
So do you find in your practice that it's helpful
to explore what trauma actually means? Absolutely? And that's such
a common thing where people think, oh, trauma as only
(09:00):
sexual assault or physical assault or abuse, and they will
minimize their experiences and say, oh, well, that couldn't possibly
have been a trauma. So in our book we talk
about big tea and little t traumas, and it's not
to diminish anything, but it's to recognize that trauma is
anything that overwhelms your nervous system's ability to cope in
(09:20):
that moment. So if you're a child and your parents
go through a really awful divorce, that could be a trauma. Right.
It's common, a lot of people go through that, but
it can be highly traumatic, and so we have to
realize that trauma is way more broadly defined than how
it's typically defined, you know in the media. Yeah, I
think it's so important for people to recognize big teas
(09:42):
and little teas and then if they do have the
resources to put in the work to maybe even access
sometimes we yeah have trauma that we don't even realize
is there because we don't have the time or the
resources or the energy to tap in to trauma, whether
big or little, And depending on how long we've been
(10:03):
numbing with whatever various thing, for however long, then yeah,
bringing that trauma to the surface is very challenging, but
then validating to be like, yeah, even though you didn't
go through physical or sexual assault, you went through something
else that was challenging, and even if no one else understands,
it's real to you and this is one of the
causes that you know is how you ended up in
(10:26):
this situation. So how how do your clients respond to
doing this biopsychosocial egg work. I think you know, for
people it can be a big like light bulb moment,
or even just it feels good to gain more insight
into the different factors that caused it, because we don't
necessarily need to know what caused it in order to
treat it, but it's definitely helpful right to guide our
(10:49):
course of treatment. Right, if it's partially caused by trauma,
then trauma work might be indicated. For instance, like after
somebody has worked on healing their behaviors with food, I
will say with the I'M a specific component that can
be challenging, Like you both kind of alluded to, where
it's like someone might have never identified as a trauma survivor,
but as they're looking at the environmental stressors they went through,
(11:11):
and they have someone like me or another therapist who's
validating and saying, wow, you know that sounds traumatic that
your parents weren't emotionally available. Um So recognizing that they
might have struggled more than they are aware of can
also be a little bit jarring. I think at first
for some people. I had to read actually a few
times because I had never had it put this way
(11:31):
for me, but was acting as if and I went
ahead and started doing that. I was hearing you. I
mean maybe I had heard it in different ways from
other people, but I was traveling the weekend that I
was reading your book, and I went out to eat
a couple of times, and I thought, well, this is
fun for me to do that act as if activity.
(11:52):
And we went out to Mellow Mushroom or something and
I ordered yeah, and I ordered a year barbecue chicken
pizza with jalapenos, and yeah, it's got this barbecue drizzle.
And I don't think, honestly, i'd had that in I
don't know, twelve years, not for any reason. I just
had not been to Mellow Mushroom. But even if I
(12:14):
had been, like eight years ago or something, I probably
would have only ordered the salad or soup or something
like that, and it was fun for me in recovery.
And I'm not trying to throw in anybody's face that
isn't quite there yet, but i will say it was
a great activity, even on the other side of things,
to still act as if. And I'm gonna have you
break that down because some people are probably like, wait,
(12:36):
what do you mean to act as if? But my
example is I ordered my barbecue chicken pizza and I
acted like this is totally normal for me. And it's
cool because now it is normal for me, But I
just wish that I had had that activity years ago,
because you know, I do think you have to to
practice it. You have to practice doing those things that
(12:58):
maybe you're like, oh wait, I'm I'm not supposed to
have this pizza and I'm doing air quotes, but as
a podcast you can't see. But when you do the activity,
you act like it's totally normal, and you're like, yeah,
it's very normal for me to be ordering this pizza
right now, and then it creates that new narrow pathway
(13:19):
of like, yes, this is normal. I absolutely love that.
That is such a great example and it's so awesome,
like just to have that joy and food right like
after you deeply struggled with eating disorder. It's the joy
coming out of Amy's mouth right now, Like you're so
alive telling that story that it's giving me life and
making me want to find a mellow mushroom. But it's
(13:41):
like it's so contagious what you're putting out right now
telling that story by using the tool in this book. So,
I mean, I think we all feel that, which is
also Yeah, even though that's an activity I've done, I
just wasn't ever calling it act as if. So then
even when I read it in your book, Jennifer, I
read it a couple of times, and then I wanted
to implement my act as if. And now now it's
(14:04):
making sense. I don't know, maybe I was tired at
the time, but it like wasn't clicking for me, and
then I was like, oh wait, now I totally get it.
But so for other people, like breakdown act as if
and what it is, and then why it's important to
act as if when you are really seeking recovery. Yeah,
So I love this skill and some people might just
kind of know of it without knowing the name, But
(14:25):
basically what it is is thinking about, first off, like
your true life values and like what you want for
your life. And so for someone in recovery, maybe that's
my value is I want to be able to share
pizza with friends. Yet and in recovery, I feel really
scared and terrified. My eating disorder is telling me you
know you're gonna gain x pounds or like X is unhealthy, right,
(14:46):
And so instead I choose to act as if And
basically that's doing the action while feeling the fear or
whatever other emotion it is. Ultimately, just to explain it further,
I think often in life we say I'm gonna wait
till I feel motivated or I'm gonna wait till I
feel confident before doing that hard and scary thing. But
the thing is that the behavior changed comes before our
(15:09):
thoughts start to change. So we only gain confidence by
doing actions that we would do if we were confident
while feeling scared shitless inside. So that's ultimately kind of
what it is. And I think your example was so perfect.
I'm so glad that you wrote a book because you
have such a succinct and powerful way of putting things
into words. And I think that makes you want to
(15:32):
do it. It's really incredible. In your book, you also
talk about mantras for food guilt. I can't tell you
how many times get d m s from somebody in
a panic who's going through the guilt of I just ate,
or maybe the guilt of I didn't exercise today. Can
you tell us a little bit about what inspired you
to include mantras, maybe even backing up and just explaining
(15:55):
what a mantra is I define it. Mantra is kind
of just something a coping statement, some thing that you
tell yourself in the moment, And for people in recovery,
often there's a lot of guilt and anxiety around eating
or like around exercise behaviors, things like that, and many
of my clients struggle with guilt and anxiety around food.
So these are just like short statements that you can
(16:17):
kind of tell yourself if you're in the heat at
that moment and the eating disort of voices yelling in
your head about how quote unquote bad like some food is.
It can be so powerful to have that, and if
it sounds like that won't help me in the moment,
It's one of those things that you just got to
try it, and it's so centering because it gets you
out of that fear mode and into safety. And even
(16:40):
though you're in the same exact physical space you just were,
it's like a new door has been opened and it's
just a glimmer of light. But that glimmer of light
is all you need to keep going and know that
you just did something really hard and keep going with
acting as if. Even pairing those two together, I feel
it could be really helpful. I was just about to
say a mantra could be Okay, act as if, act
(17:03):
as if, act as if, and you can repeat that
to yourself and it's not lost on all three of us,
Like we've all been in your shoes. If you're if,
you're listening and you're like, okay, but really, what did
they know? And it's like, no, gosh, we've been there.
Everybody's story is a little bit different. But yeah, I mean,
maybe that mantra for you is act as if, Like
(17:23):
maybe skipping the workout is what you need, and you
act like that's your normal. Oh, act as if skipping
your workout is no big deal, and then eventually it
will become no big deal, like your life will go
on I just remember thinking like if I did not
work out for a day, that my whole body was
what was going to happen. I didn't know if it's
gonna wake up and my clothes wouldn't fit, Like I
(17:46):
had those thoughts, if I don't go to the gym today,
I'm gonna be bigger tomorrow. And you know, I wish
that I had had had a mantra or something else
to tell myself of like that's just not the case.
And I was giving myself more stress and anxiety and
worry in all my thoughts instead of keeping them more
positive and believing that that I did have more control
(18:08):
than I thought. Does that make sense so much? And Jennifer,
I'm a huge fan of therapy, have been in therapy
my whole life, but I'd say, if I had to,
I really don't like having regrets. But if I have
one regret after meeting you and reading this book, even
is that I didn't ever seek out specifically and eating
disorder therapist specifically, because even though I knew I had
(18:34):
food stuff going on, to have somebody walk you through
these things that I did alone and provide the tools
rather than feel so freaking alone when you have that
food guilt or that workout guilt, and to have somebody
to say it to and to that person to first
of all validate your experience and then provide a tool
to get you through it. I mean, you're saving a
(18:55):
lot on emotional energy that you know. It's hard to
figure this stuff out on your own because you once
you're in that fear brain, it's really hard to realize
that there's any other way to feel. In that moment.
It feels so scary that your clothes aren't going to fit,
or that you've caused damage to your health, if you're
struggling with orthorexia, you know all those things. So yeah,
(19:16):
you know a dred percent. And I think even when
you do seek treatment, it's so helpful right to have
someone to walk alongside you, especially if they've been there,
but even if they haven't, who has lots of experience
with working with eating diswortters. I highly recommend that. And
we also have to set expectations that when you're starting
to act as if like you're going to be scared
and that fear brain is going to be activated, right,
(19:39):
and like you said, something like a mantra or other
things can be grounding to get you out of almost
that like fight or flight, which can come up because
you know, we all understand for people with eating disorders,
taking that day off of going to the gym feels
like taking someone with a fear of heights and saying, Okay,
we're at the top of this really tall building and
I want you to stand here and bungee jump off
(20:00):
of it. Right, So we have to acknowledge that this
work is really hard, but I think we can all
say that it's incredibly rewarding and the payoff is really big. Okay, Jennifer,
do you mind if I read something from your Instagram? Now?
Go for it. You put up a big picture of
Hoggendoss ice cream, and that was the photo, and then
your caption was my life without an eating disorder is
(20:21):
a million times better than my life with one. In
my eating disorder, I was miserable, frequently, didn't want to
be alive, and very anxious. Today, I've been mostly off
exploring Baltimore with Mark. We got lunch at a restaurant.
I asked him if we could grab some ice cream
and we'll be eating dinner out in my e d.
I would have been so anxious about all of it
(20:42):
and missed out on joy, not just the food, but
being able to enjoy the moment and the day with Mark.
I feel happy and at peace with myself. I just
wanted to share that as a story of hope and
encouragement to anybody listening that if you feel anxious and miserable.
I remember feeling, yes, tons of negative emotions when I
(21:05):
was in the depths of my eating disorder, just so
much negativity, and it really was just I was toxic
to be around, quite honestly, because I was no fun.
And now here you are sharing a story of hope
where you feel true happiness and joy, and you're with
Mark and you're able to to enjoy life to its fullest.
You're not living small. So I just wanted to to
(21:27):
read like one of your posts because again I think
people following you they'll get a lot of that kind
of stuff. But can you speak to like the joy
and happiness that you do feel now. Yeah, So I
appreciate you reading that. It's interesting to hear what you
wrote read aloud. Yeah, I think I felt very emotional
honestly writing that post because as you know, and you
(21:48):
know at least to knows when you have an eating disorder, like,
vacations are miserable, at least they were for me. In
the past. It was constant anxiety about when can I
get to the gym, I have to eat out? Can
I bring my own Like it was just so much
stress and anxiety. And so now being able to like
go on vacation, even for like a weekend and just
like have so much fun and explore places and eat
(22:10):
out and not have that like eating disort of voice
in my head is just the best feeling ever. So yeah,
I just want to provide hope to people that recovery
is possible. And I would just say to anybody that
does have a little weekend getaway coming up, or maybe
even it's just exploring your own city. Maybe you go around,
you pick a weekend, whether it is a trip or yes,
in your own town, and you act as if for
(22:32):
the weekend, act as if you get to enjoy your city,
you get to enjoy the food, you get to enjoy
missing a workout, act as if that is your normal.
And then we're all living proof that it can be
your new normal, and we want to be your biggest cheerleaders.
That's why Lisa and I even wanted to do outweigh.
(22:54):
When I called her to start this, I was like,
I'm just feeling like I want others to have this,
and so what can we do? And so I'm thankful
for her and you, Jennifer Experts that I've been able
to lean into and and gain so much wisdom from
and hope, So thank you for that. And this is
coming from someone who used to travel to third world
(23:15):
countries because my kids are adopted from Haiti with her
own almond milk and other produce that I'm pretty sure
it was probably illegal for me to travel into another
country with, but I didn't care because it was more
worth it for me to have my organic limons than
you know, possibly going to airport jail, but whatever. Yeah,
And I just wanted to say I'm so honestly grateful
(23:37):
to you both for doing this podcast. I think, you know,
for them what I was on before, there was so
much positive feedback, and I know you guys are just
continuing to like change lives and inspire people in recovery.
We're grateful to have you as a resource, and our
audience really is freaking fantastic. The d m s that
we get and the shares on social media. When we
(23:57):
have an awesome expert like you, like I know this
episod it is going to be shared a lot. Is
what keeps this podcast going. And you know, it's like
just a very small trickle effect of each person positively
benefiting in such a safe space breaking down ideas about therapy,
about eating disorders, about orthorexia. And I'm super grateful for
Amy for really introducing me to a whole new group
(24:20):
of people that have never heard of things like orthorexia
or think that because they're in bigger bodies that they
don't deserve to have care, to a treatment team or
to get eating disorder help. It's been so surprising even
for me, the people that I've reached, and they're just
the nicest people. So thank you for being a guest today.
Let's do a part two so we can talk a
(24:40):
little bit more about your book. So we'll pick back
up with another episode with Jennifer to learn a lot
more about her book and the amazing takeaways that we
can use to make our lives enriched. But in the meantime,
order the book. Will put a link in the description
and again it's called the Inside Scoop on eating disorder
recovery and its advice from two therapists who have been
(25:01):
there so they know what they're talking about. Not only
did they have the credentials and they're very smart, but
they are witty and offer some levity in it and
also sharing their personal journey along the way. I feel
like too, I just want to say this because I
don't know. It just came into my head, but I
feel like to that your book, Jennifer, I know would
be so beneficial for some people in my life, but
(25:23):
I don't know that they're quite there yet with it.
But is it weird to just gift a book like
that to someone? Or how how do we share your
message more or I don't know. I'm stuttering because I
don't want to offend anybody, but I'm just more so
like it's something where when I was reading it, I
was like, oh my gosh, this would be so good
for so and so to read. But is it weird
(25:43):
to give someone a book that says the inside scoop
on needing disorder? I think it could be okay to say, hey,
like I connected with this person or I found this
person on Instagram and I kind of like her message
and she wrote a book. You know, I'd love to
send it to you or whatever, just a kind of
funny anecdote. My parents to visit our wedding venue, and
they gave the person who we've been coordinating with at
(26:04):
the hotel a copy of my book, which I personally
was like, well, that's a little strange, but she seemed
to appreciate it. So I guess my point is, I
think it's okay to say, like, hey, here's this cool person,
feel free to check out the book. Like you're not saying, well,
this means you haven't eating disorder because I'm giving you
a book. Well, and I think more so some people
that I mean thinking of it's just more just educating
(26:25):
yourself onto what other people were going through. I feel
like maybe some of my friends or even my sister
or something. I wish she would have had it to
read when I was in the throes of my eating disorder,
because I think it would have helped her better understand
a little bit more of maybe what I was going through.
But okay, well I could keep going on and on,
but we'll do that in part two. Thank you Jennifer
as always, and thank you to our outweigh FAM,
I won't let my body out me out well everything
that I'm made do. Won't spend my life trying to change.
I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who every part of me.
It's beautiful and I will always out way if you
(00:24):
feel it with joys in there, she's some love to
the boom there. Let's say good day and did you
and die out? All right? Amy here and Lisa and
I are super excited to be joined today by Jennifer Rowland.
She has been on Outwagh before and she's someone we
(00:44):
reference quite a bit here on Our Way and even
on my four Things podcast. I feel like I'm always
referring people to something that Jennifer has posted on Instagram
because I just feel like she uses Instagram. Well, it's
a powerful tool. Instagram is how I even connected with Lisa,
and Lisa opened me up to this whole world of
(01:04):
people that are really making an impact. I'm speaking from
someone who I know We've got a lot of listeners
that this is new information to them. But y'all have
really been digging deep in this stuff for quite some time,
and you've made it your life's mission to help people
in a different way, you know, and you're a eating
disorder therapist. There's other people that do work in your
(01:26):
field that I feel like sometimes you even have to
call them out. I just learned so much from what
you put on Instagram, which if people want to follow you,
you're at Jennifer Underscore roll in r O L L
I in. But we're extra excited to have you on
today because we're gonna be breaking down your new book,
which is called The Inside Scoop on Eating disorder Recovery,
(01:48):
and it's advice from two therapists who have been there
and out of the gate. Just let us know what
inspired you and Calleen to write this book. Why did
you want to put this out there? Because working on
Instagram and working with clients, which that's your main thing,
working the clients, that's a lot. But to take on
writing a book, that's a whole another animal. So why
was it important to you to do that? Yeah, So,
(02:10):
speaking of meeting people on Instagram, Colleen and I actually
met I want to stay on Instagram or Facebook many
years ago and became friends and we both kind of
came to the idea separately. It was actually very like
serendipitous where I had been thinking, you know, Colleen, like,
wouldn't it be so cool if we had a recovery
book that was kind of how to guide for people
(02:31):
and eating disort of recovery, where each chapter was a
different topic, And she's like, Jen, I've been working on
this book for like a couple of years actually, like
I had the same exact idea. So then a publisher
ended up reaching out to me randomly on Instagram a
couple of months after we started working on the outline,
and basically long roundabout way of saying, I wrote the
book because I personally struggled with the eating disorder and
(02:53):
my passion is really helping other people to recover, and
I saw this as another avenue to reach people who
maybe couldn't come to see me for therapy. Well, you
know something that I have really enjoyed as how y'all
did the book was you back it up with a
lot of research and it's very thoughtfully done. But every
once in a while you'll sprinkle in, you know, Colleen's
(03:14):
personal story or Jennifer's personal story, so then it makes
it so relatable and for certain people reading it, including myself,
it's like oh wow, Okay, there are others out there
that have the same things that I have going on
inside of my head. So I thought that was a
nice little touch that you know, is occasionally sprinkled in
and made it very, very very relatable. Yeah, that means
(03:37):
a lot, and we've gotten that feedback that people love,
like the personal antecdotes. We also tried to write it
in kind of like a snarky, sassy tones that it
wasn't like to make a serious topic kind of I
don't want to say fun, but relatable, to make it
sound like it was your best friends, kind of like
talking to you about recovery tips a little bit more
approachable as well. And I think a lot of people
(03:59):
really put therapists and maybe registered dietitians who work with
eating disorders on this pedestal. And by inserting your story
of I get it, I've been there, I know the struggle,
which is very I feel like different than perhaps how
you were like professionally trained to do business. And obviously
there's a perfect balance that you've found of sharing so
(04:19):
that it's helpful, not you know, over sharing. I personally
also find it really meticulously well done how you to
share and the fact that you really had the courage
to share and disrupt what's expected of therapists, because not
just for your own personal like, yeah, you did something big,
but for so many of our listeners. I think they're
(04:40):
afraid to knock on a therapist store. They think that,
you know, it comes with judgment, or they just don't
really know what to expect. Maybe, so I think softening
that and prying open that door a little bit to
your own life creates some safe place. Yeah, and that
was again like, really our intention was not to come
off as this traditional therapy where it's very stuffy, like
(05:02):
you're laying back on a couch, the person is a
blank slate. We wanted to, yeah, do exactly what you're
talking about, make people feel more open and more comfortable
with reaching out for help. So if people wanted to
pick up this book, and again it's called The Inside
Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, and on the cover it's
this really pretty pinkish purpleish color, but then there's a
(05:22):
big old ice cream scooper full of some vanilla ice
cream and so and then if you again, if you
follow Jennifer on Instagram too, I love the different you know,
yummy coffee posts and all the eating disorder recovery looks
like this, and she's doing like an amazing food post.
But who is this book for? And maybe who is
this book not for? Yeah, so we say it in
(05:43):
the book that this book is really for everyone. I
think I know myself, and from hearing a little bit
about both of your stories, I think it was similar
this idea of like I'm not sick enough, maybe I
haven't been professionally diagnosed. Maybe I'm not you know, in
a quote unquote underweight body. And so this book is
for everyone, for people who've been diagnosed with eating disorders,
(06:04):
for people who struggle with disordered eating, basically for anyone
who struggles in their relationship to food and their body,
because we wanted to debunk that myth about like what
it means to be like quote unquote sick enough. And specifically,
we hear a lot from our audience that they are.
When we talk about eating disorders, what they hear is restriction,
(06:24):
and that's not their problem. They struggle with binging over eating,
and sometimes the weight comes with it, sometimes it doesn't.
But would this book provide tools for somebody who is
struggling with the binge portion. Absolutely, and we've gotten that
question a fair bit, and we have a chapter on
binge eating disorder as well as orthorexia and trauma, so
(06:45):
we cover a whole host across the eating disorder spectrum.
One activity that I enjoyed doing was filling out my
bio psycho social egg so explain to people and obviously
they get the book they will have a better understand standing.
But I did think that that was an interesting activity
to have us do as we were working our way
(07:07):
through the beginning of the book, just so that we
understand our egg, and like, what does our egg have
to do with what's going on with us? Can you
explain why it's important for people to know their egg
and why you'll put that in there. Absolutely. So when
we think about eating disorders or other mental illnesses, it's
this saying where we say genetics loads the gun and
then environment pulls the trigger. So looking at your biopsychosocial
(07:31):
egg is looking at biological factors, right. So I happen
to have a close family member who had air XCO,
which I later learned temperamental factors. So there are some
personality traits like perfectionism, harm avoidance being a highly sensitive person.
And then lastly we look at environmental factors, so we
know oppression, you know, fat phobia, racism, trauma, going through
(07:55):
food and security. These are all things in our environment
which come together for that person who has maybe some
of the underlying genetics and some of the personality factors
which creates this eating disorder egg and ultimately causes it
to crack, which causes the eating disorder. If that makes sense,
It makes so much sense, and I think as it's
(08:15):
such a helpful way to really break down that eating
disorders aren't caused by one thing. And one word that
you just said that really spoke to me specifically was
it can be caused by trauma or trauma is one
of the things that can bring on an eating disorder
in conjunction with some other things. But a lot of
my clients and perhaps people you work with, some have
obvious trauma, such as you know, sexual trauma or emotional trauma,
(08:40):
but others aren't able to say I have had trauma
because they don't view their experience as quote unquote traumatic.
So do you find in your practice that it's helpful
to explore what trauma actually means? Absolutely? And that's such
a common thing where people think, oh, trauma as only
(09:00):
sexual assault or physical assault or abuse, and they will
minimize their experiences and say, oh, well, that couldn't possibly
have been a trauma. So in our book we talk
about big tea and little t traumas, and it's not
to diminish anything, but it's to recognize that trauma is
anything that overwhelms your nervous system's ability to cope in
(09:20):
that moment. So if you're a child and your parents
go through a really awful divorce, that could be a trauma. Right.
It's common, a lot of people go through that, but
it can be highly traumatic, and so we have to
realize that trauma is way more broadly defined than how
it's typically defined, you know in the media. Yeah, I
think it's so important for people to recognize big teas
(09:42):
and little teas and then if they do have the
resources to put in the work to maybe even access
sometimes we yeah have trauma that we don't even realize
is there because we don't have the time or the
resources or the energy to tap in to trauma, whether
big or little, And depending on how long we've been
(10:03):
numbing with whatever various thing, for however long, then yeah,
bringing that trauma to the surface is very challenging, but
then validating to be like, yeah, even though you didn't
go through physical or sexual assault, you went through something
else that was challenging, and even if no one else understands,
it's real to you and this is one of the
causes that you know is how you ended up in
(10:26):
this situation. So how how do your clients respond to
doing this biopsychosocial egg work. I think you know, for
people it can be a big like light bulb moment,
or even just it feels good to gain more insight
into the different factors that caused it, because we don't
necessarily need to know what caused it in order to
treat it, but it's definitely helpful right to guide our
(10:49):
course of treatment. Right, if it's partially caused by trauma,
then trauma work might be indicated. For instance, like after
somebody has worked on healing their behaviors with food, I
will say with the I'M a specific component that can
be challenging, Like you both kind of alluded to, where
it's like someone might have never identified as a trauma survivor,
but as they're looking at the environmental stressors they went through,
(11:11):
and they have someone like me or another therapist who's
validating and saying, wow, you know that sounds traumatic that
your parents weren't emotionally available. Um So recognizing that they
might have struggled more than they are aware of can
also be a little bit jarring. I think at first
for some people. I had to read actually a few
times because I had never had it put this way
(11:31):
for me, but was acting as if and I went
ahead and started doing that. I was hearing you. I
mean maybe I had heard it in different ways from
other people, but I was traveling the weekend that I
was reading your book, and I went out to eat
a couple of times, and I thought, well, this is
fun for me to do that act as if activity.
(11:52):
And we went out to Mellow Mushroom or something and
I ordered yeah, and I ordered a year barbecue chicken
pizza with jalapenos, and yeah, it's got this barbecue drizzle.
And I don't think, honestly, i'd had that in I
don't know, twelve years, not for any reason. I just
had not been to Mellow Mushroom. But even if I
(12:14):
had been, like eight years ago or something, I probably
would have only ordered the salad or soup or something
like that, and it was fun for me in recovery.
And I'm not trying to throw in anybody's face that
isn't quite there yet, but i will say it was
a great activity, even on the other side of things,
to still act as if. And I'm gonna have you
break that down because some people are probably like, wait,
(12:36):
what do you mean to act as if? But my
example is I ordered my barbecue chicken pizza and I
acted like this is totally normal for me. And it's
cool because now it is normal for me, But I
just wish that I had had that activity years ago,
because you know, I do think you have to to
practice it. You have to practice doing those things that
(12:58):
maybe you're like, oh wait, I'm I'm not supposed to
have this pizza and I'm doing air quotes, but as
a podcast you can't see. But when you do the activity,
you act like it's totally normal, and you're like, yeah,
it's very normal for me to be ordering this pizza
right now, and then it creates that new narrow pathway
(13:19):
of like, yes, this is normal. I absolutely love that.
That is such a great example and it's so awesome,
like just to have that joy and food right like
after you deeply struggled with eating disorder. It's the joy
coming out of Amy's mouth right now, Like you're so
alive telling that story that it's giving me life and
making me want to find a mellow mushroom. But it's
(13:41):
like it's so contagious what you're putting out right now
telling that story by using the tool in this book. So,
I mean, I think we all feel that, which is
also Yeah, even though that's an activity I've done, I
just wasn't ever calling it act as if. So then
even when I read it in your book, Jennifer, I
read it a couple of times, and then I wanted
to implement my act as if. And now now it's
(14:04):
making sense. I don't know, maybe I was tired at
the time, but it like wasn't clicking for me, and
then I was like, oh wait, now I totally get it.
But so for other people, like breakdown act as if
and what it is, and then why it's important to
act as if when you are really seeking recovery. Yeah,
So I love this skill and some people might just
kind of know of it without knowing the name, But
(14:25):
basically what it is is thinking about, first off, like
your true life values and like what you want for
your life. And so for someone in recovery, maybe that's
my value is I want to be able to share
pizza with friends. Yet and in recovery, I feel really
scared and terrified. My eating disorder is telling me you
know you're gonna gain x pounds or like X is unhealthy, right,
(14:46):
And so instead I choose to act as if And
basically that's doing the action while feeling the fear or
whatever other emotion it is. Ultimately, just to explain it further,
I think often in life we say I'm gonna wait
till I feel motivated or I'm gonna wait till I
feel confident before doing that hard and scary thing. But
the thing is that the behavior changed comes before our
(15:09):
thoughts start to change. So we only gain confidence by
doing actions that we would do if we were confident
while feeling scared shitless inside. So that's ultimately kind of
what it is. And I think your example was so perfect.
I'm so glad that you wrote a book because you
have such a succinct and powerful way of putting things
into words. And I think that makes you want to
(15:32):
do it. It's really incredible. In your book, you also
talk about mantras for food guilt. I can't tell you
how many times get d m s from somebody in
a panic who's going through the guilt of I just ate,
or maybe the guilt of I didn't exercise today. Can
you tell us a little bit about what inspired you
to include mantras, maybe even backing up and just explaining
(15:55):
what a mantra is I define it. Mantra is kind
of just something a coping statement, some thing that you
tell yourself in the moment, And for people in recovery,
often there's a lot of guilt and anxiety around eating
or like around exercise behaviors, things like that, and many
of my clients struggle with guilt and anxiety around food.
So these are just like short statements that you can
(16:17):
kind of tell yourself if you're in the heat at
that moment and the eating disort of voices yelling in
your head about how quote unquote bad like some food is.
It can be so powerful to have that, and if
it sounds like that won't help me in the moment,
It's one of those things that you just got to
try it, and it's so centering because it gets you
out of that fear mode and into safety. And even
(16:40):
though you're in the same exact physical space you just were,
it's like a new door has been opened and it's
just a glimmer of light. But that glimmer of light
is all you need to keep going and know that
you just did something really hard and keep going with
acting as if. Even pairing those two together, I feel
it could be really helpful. I was just about to
say a mantra could be Okay, act as if, act
(17:03):
as if, act as if, and you can repeat that
to yourself and it's not lost on all three of us,
Like we've all been in your shoes. If you're if,
you're listening and you're like, okay, but really, what did
they know? And it's like, no, gosh, we've been there.
Everybody's story is a little bit different. But yeah, I mean,
maybe that mantra for you is act as if, Like
(17:23):
maybe skipping the workout is what you need, and you
act like that's your normal. Oh, act as if skipping
your workout is no big deal, and then eventually it
will become no big deal, like your life will go
on I just remember thinking like if I did not
work out for a day, that my whole body was
what was going to happen. I didn't know if it's
gonna wake up and my clothes wouldn't fit, Like I
(17:46):
had those thoughts, if I don't go to the gym today,
I'm gonna be bigger tomorrow. And you know, I wish
that I had had had a mantra or something else
to tell myself of like that's just not the case.
And I was giving myself more stress and anxiety and
worry in all my thoughts instead of keeping them more
positive and believing that that I did have more control
(18:08):
than I thought. Does that make sense so much? And Jennifer,
I'm a huge fan of therapy, have been in therapy
my whole life, but I'd say, if I had to,
I really don't like having regrets. But if I have
one regret after meeting you and reading this book, even
is that I didn't ever seek out specifically and eating
disorder therapist specifically, because even though I knew I had
(18:34):
food stuff going on, to have somebody walk you through
these things that I did alone and provide the tools
rather than feel so freaking alone when you have that
food guilt or that workout guilt, and to have somebody
to say it to and to that person to first
of all validate your experience and then provide a tool
to get you through it. I mean, you're saving a
(18:55):
lot on emotional energy that you know. It's hard to
figure this stuff out on your own because you once
you're in that fear brain, it's really hard to realize
that there's any other way to feel. In that moment.
It feels so scary that your clothes aren't going to fit,
or that you've caused damage to your health, if you're
struggling with orthorexia, you know all those things. So yeah,
(19:16):
you know a dred percent. And I think even when
you do seek treatment, it's so helpful right to have
someone to walk alongside you, especially if they've been there,
but even if they haven't, who has lots of experience
with working with eating diswortters. I highly recommend that. And
we also have to set expectations that when you're starting
to act as if like you're going to be scared
and that fear brain is going to be activated, right,
(19:39):
and like you said, something like a mantra or other
things can be grounding to get you out of almost
that like fight or flight, which can come up because
you know, we all understand for people with eating disorders,
taking that day off of going to the gym feels
like taking someone with a fear of heights and saying, Okay,
we're at the top of this really tall building and
I want you to stand here and bungee jump off
(20:00):
of it. Right, So we have to acknowledge that this
work is really hard, but I think we can all
say that it's incredibly rewarding and the payoff is really big. Okay, Jennifer,
do you mind if I read something from your Instagram? Now?
Go for it. You put up a big picture of
Hoggendoss ice cream, and that was the photo, and then
your caption was my life without an eating disorder is
(20:21):
a million times better than my life with one. In
my eating disorder, I was miserable, frequently, didn't want to
be alive, and very anxious. Today, I've been mostly off
exploring Baltimore with Mark. We got lunch at a restaurant.
I asked him if we could grab some ice cream
and we'll be eating dinner out in my e d.
I would have been so anxious about all of it
(20:42):
and missed out on joy, not just the food, but
being able to enjoy the moment and the day with Mark.
I feel happy and at peace with myself. I just
wanted to share that as a story of hope and
encouragement to anybody listening that if you feel anxious and miserable.
I remember feeling, yes, tons of negative emotions when I
(21:05):
was in the depths of my eating disorder, just so
much negativity, and it really was just I was toxic
to be around, quite honestly, because I was no fun.
And now here you are sharing a story of hope
where you feel true happiness and joy, and you're with
Mark and you're able to to enjoy life to its fullest.
You're not living small. So I just wanted to to
(21:27):
read like one of your posts because again I think
people following you they'll get a lot of that kind
of stuff. But can you speak to like the joy
and happiness that you do feel now. Yeah, So I
appreciate you reading that. It's interesting to hear what you
wrote read aloud. Yeah, I think I felt very emotional
honestly writing that post because as you know, and you
(21:48):
know at least to knows when you have an eating disorder, like,
vacations are miserable, at least they were for me. In
the past. It was constant anxiety about when can I
get to the gym, I have to eat out? Can
I bring my own Like it was just so much
stress and anxiety. And so now being able to like
go on vacation, even for like a weekend and just
like have so much fun and explore places and eat
(22:10):
out and not have that like eating disort of voice
in my head is just the best feeling ever. So yeah,
I just want to provide hope to people that recovery
is possible. And I would just say to anybody that
does have a little weekend getaway coming up, or maybe
even it's just exploring your own city. Maybe you go around,
you pick a weekend, whether it is a trip or yes,
in your own town, and you act as if for
(22:32):
the weekend, act as if you get to enjoy your city,
you get to enjoy the food, you get to enjoy
missing a workout, act as if that is your normal.
And then we're all living proof that it can be
your new normal, and we want to be your biggest cheerleaders.
That's why Lisa and I even wanted to do outweigh.
(22:54):
When I called her to start this, I was like,
I'm just feeling like I want others to have this,
and so what can we do? And so I'm thankful
for her and you, Jennifer Experts that I've been able
to lean into and and gain so much wisdom from
and hope, So thank you for that. And this is
coming from someone who used to travel to third world
(23:15):
countries because my kids are adopted from Haiti with her
own almond milk and other produce that I'm pretty sure
it was probably illegal for me to travel into another
country with, but I didn't care because it was more
worth it for me to have my organic limons than
you know, possibly going to airport jail, but whatever. Yeah,
And I just wanted to say I'm so honestly grateful
(23:37):
to you both for doing this podcast. I think, you know,
for them what I was on before, there was so
much positive feedback, and I know you guys are just
continuing to like change lives and inspire people in recovery.
We're grateful to have you as a resource, and our
audience really is freaking fantastic. The d m s that
we get and the shares on social media. When we
(23:57):
have an awesome expert like you, like I know this
episod it is going to be shared a lot. Is
what keeps this podcast going. And you know, it's like
just a very small trickle effect of each person positively
benefiting in such a safe space breaking down ideas about therapy,
about eating disorders, about orthorexia. And I'm super grateful for
Amy for really introducing me to a whole new group
(24:20):
of people that have never heard of things like orthorexia
or think that because they're in bigger bodies that they
don't deserve to have care, to a treatment team or
to get eating disorder help. It's been so surprising even
for me, the people that I've reached, and they're just
the nicest people. So thank you for being a guest today.
Let's do a part two so we can talk a
(24:40):
little bit more about your book. So we'll pick back
up with another episode with Jennifer to learn a lot
more about her book and the amazing takeaways that we
can use to make our lives enriched. But in the meantime,
order the book. Will put a link in the description
and again it's called the Inside Scoop on eating disorder
recovery and its advice from two therapists who have been
(25:01):
there so they know what they're talking about. Not only
did they have the credentials and they're very smart, but
they are witty and offer some levity in it and
also sharing their personal journey along the way. I feel
like too, I just want to say this because I
don't know. It just came into my head, but I
feel like to that your book, Jennifer, I know would
be so beneficial for some people in my life, but
(25:23):
I don't know that they're quite there yet with it.
But is it weird to just gift a book like
that to someone? Or how how do we share your
message more or I don't know. I'm stuttering because I
don't want to offend anybody, but I'm just more so
like it's something where when I was reading it, I
was like, oh my gosh, this would be so good
for so and so to read. But is it weird
(25:43):
to give someone a book that says the inside scoop
on needing disorder? I think it could be okay to say, hey,
like I connected with this person or I found this
person on Instagram and I kind of like her message
and she wrote a book. You know, I'd love to
send it to you or whatever, just a kind of
funny anecdote. My parents to visit our wedding venue, and
they gave the person who we've been coordinating with at
(26:04):
the hotel a copy of my book, which I personally
was like, well, that's a little strange, but she seemed
to appreciate it. So I guess my point is, I
think it's okay to say, like, hey, here's this cool person,
feel free to check out the book. Like you're not saying, well,
this means you haven't eating disorder because I'm giving you
a book. Well, and I think more so some people
that I mean thinking of it's just more just educating
(26:25):
yourself onto what other people were going through. I feel
like maybe some of my friends or even my sister
or something. I wish she would have had it to
read when I was in the throes of my eating disorder,
because I think it would have helped her better understand
a little bit more of maybe what I was going through.
But okay, well I could keep going on and on,
but we'll do that in part two. Thank you Jennifer
as always, and thank you to our outweigh FAM,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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