April 3, 2021 • 26 mins
Most people think of eating disorders as the noticeable symptoms such as changes in food intake, body changes, etc. But what about all the symptoms we can’t see? Amy and Kaitlyn sit down to discuss and Kaitlyn shares what parents can do to create a place where their kids feel comfortable to talk about all things.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I won't let my body out outwell everything that I'm
made do. Won't spend my life trying to change. I'm
learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who every part of me
it's beautiful and then will always outwa if you feel
(00:24):
it with you in there, she's some love to the
boy there. Let's say good day and did you and
die out? Hey, Outweigh fam, I've got Caitlin Wasniak joining
me today. Amy here, Lisa's not with us, It's just
me and Caitlin. But Lisa, if you're listening, Hey, why Lisa?
(00:44):
We miss you. Caitlin is a personal trainer specializing in
women's fitness, pre impost natal specialist, a birth doula, and
an eating disorder survivor. And she did join us on
season one of Outweigh. That was on my four Things
podcast a year ago, on my year ago. So I'm
glad to have you back and sitting down with us.
And you know, we're going to get into a post
(01:05):
that you put up on Instagram that I really loved.
And if people want to know your Instagram account, because
Caitlin was Niak her name, but her Instagram account is
a little bit different, so we're gonna put it in
the show notes. But it's Caitlin Tonay Caitlyn today. It
confuses everyone. Yeah, so this post that you put up
was what my eating disorder couldn't show you. And then
(01:27):
there was a list of things and I'll just rattle
them off real quick and then you can speak to
the post. But it was loss of menstruation, osteopenia, dizziness
in passing out, sharp pain and joints after sitting for
stretches of time, memory decreases, mood swings, decreased body temperature,
diminished energy, and excessive napping, supervised meals with the high
(01:48):
school nurse, obsessive thoughts about food, self harm, chronic negative
self talk, anxiety, strained relationships, g I issues. So yeah,
what would someone that looked at you from outside, what
would they have seen during that time? But really this
was going on on the inside at that time. Those
side effects or red flags symptoms were appearing even though
(02:11):
I wasn't at my lowest weight and I hadn't lost
even the most significant amount of weight in my eating disorder,
so I was seemingly at a normal weight, a healthy
weight um on the lower end for probably my age
and heighten whatever I roll at the b m I scale.
But you know, just a glimpse at me from an outsider.
(02:32):
I don't think people were concerned about my health and
well being. But meanwhile, I was already feeling the effects
of my eating disorder, sinking in all the variety of
ways you just read right old for you about this time.
So when I started dieting, I was thirteen when I
was introduced to diets, and it started as a low
carb diet. Every adult that I knew, my mom, her friends,
(02:54):
I had, aunts and uncles were all on the Atkins diet.
And I started going through puberty around the same time,
and I got really uncomfortable in my body weight gain curves. Right,
all those things that were just so foreign and new
to me, we're also getting me a lot of male
attention that made me very uncomfortable, and I wanted to
(03:15):
shrink my body. So I asked my mom if she
would help me diet, and she didn't know any better, right,
She just gave me a rule book and helped me
pack salads for lunch with dressing on the side and
hundred calorie pack snacks, and I was fourteen when I
was formally diagnosed with my eating disorder. And so you
wrote in this post you said, I remember going into
(03:36):
treatment at Hopkins for the first time, looking around and
telling my mom, I don't belong here. I'm not as
sick as everyone else. So how old were you at
that time? Okay, so that was at fourteen that you
went and sought treatment as well. Yes, okay, Well that
happened fast, fast, very fast. So a story that my
mom often kind of recalls and I tell to people
that I mentor work with. At the time, around thirteen,
(03:57):
I was competing in pageants, So I was competing for
Miss Marylyn ten USA, and that fall so maybe like
September roughly, I had bought my evening gown and it
fit perfectly, and by November when I competed at the pageant,
it was virtually falling off of me on stage. And
my mom always says that was the first time she
(04:18):
really noticed that I had a real problem, because up
until that point my weight seemed normal to her. But
it was you know, you see someone every day all
day and you kind of turn a blind eye to
the behaviors because you don't want to face the truth sometimes,
and that I think for her was a really staggering
experience to say, my daughter has an issue and she's
(04:41):
up there seemingly healthy and smiling and happy on a
stage under lights and a beautiful evening gown with hair
and makeup, but things were not good well, and when
you looked around and said, mom, I don't belong here,
like I'm not as sick as everyone else. Now, you
were fourteen, but that could be someone's experience at five,
right at forty five, at sixty, and so what would
(05:04):
you say to people that might be thinking that or
maybe outweighs where they get this content or they start
following people on Instagram like y'all, and they that's the
content they're receiving and they start to just think to
themselves like, uh, I get what they're saying that I'm
not that bad, So I don't I don't understand why
I'm even trying to understand this. Yeah, I mean, first
(05:25):
of all, we all say that. We all say that
when we're sick and we're struggling, and at every stage
of our journey with disordered eating a clinical diagnosis, whether
we're in treatment or actively in recovery, none of us
think that we're that sick because they're eating disorders are
very manipulative, so it's important to kind of dig your
(05:46):
heels in and kind of call ourselves out when that
voice creeps in. But I would always say, like, it's
not just about the physical body or the number on
the scale, it's all these other things when we're the
ones you list, like, that was a long list a lot,
and so if you're if you are getting dizzy upon
standing up because you're malnourished or dehydrated, or if your
(06:07):
joints are aching, or if your periods stop, if you're isolating,
and we kind of hit on this last time on
the Four Things podcast. The tendency to isolate out of
depression is big in its own right. But then they're
also times when you might isolate or cancel plans to
(06:29):
overly exercise, or because you're uncomfortable being out in a
restaurant where you don't have control over food. So these
are all things that interfere with our quality of life
that may not be exclusive to our weight or what
is happening externally, but internally it's freaking havoc on our
bodies and our minds. Yeah, I think that that's a
(06:50):
huge red flag is avoiding social events, choosing workouts over relationships,
and being scared of food if you can't control what's
in it. But for some reason, I lived that way
for years and they weren't red flags to me, but
they're so obvious right now. I thought, well, the healthy
thing for me to do is to choose the workout
(07:12):
right now. You know, probably was denial. I didn't see
how that was actually me hurting and being really sad.
And yeah, it breaks my heart to know that I
chose so many nights alone over going to be with
people because of those different reasons. And I think it's
interesting because there's part of me that wonders back then,
(07:34):
I didn't recognize them either. That's why I wrote that post,
because back then, it just seems, well, this is my life, right,
this is what it is, and this doesn't I'm not
sick enough so these things aren't necessarily but you were
still functioning, functioning. But I also wondered too if some
of it now. Back then, there was no one talking
about eating disorders when I was sick. It was still
(07:56):
so stigmatized and still so taboo, and I knew very
few people who shared their experiences. So part of me
was just living in a secret, and so any red flags,
even if they did, kind of strike me as concerning.
I didn't have anyone leading the charge in front of
me to say it's okay to say like you need help.
(08:18):
And I hope for people that there is a little
bit of a shift right even this podcast, Like, it's
beautiful to see so many people be really open about
their struggles in whatever capacity and at whatever level that
is for them. Maybe they'd share their story with just
one person or maybe their own podcasts. Disclosing stories so
that we can empower other people is really such a
(08:38):
beautiful gift. That's the only reason why I think I
share her half the more than half the stuff, well, no, everything,
what am I talking about? I feel like even on
the Bobby Bone, Joe or four things are here on
that way, it's like, okay, if I can use my
experience for good now so that somebody else doesn't feel alone,
then I didn't just go through that for no reason.
(09:00):
And it doesn't mean that everybody has that calling to
put their story out there so that others don't feel alone.
It may not, and you know, may not mean that
you have to share your story publicly, but maybe just
speaking to a best friend or a family member about
it or a therapist and making sure that you're you're
voicing it. It doesn't mean, you know, you have to
proclaim to the world like this is what's going on
(09:20):
with me right now, But if you eventually feel led
to do that, then by all means your story will
come in handy at some point. And you know, we
were talking a little bit before we were recording, because
when I was in high school, I remember taking these
pills that were exercise pills. I guess I got them
from this gym that I was doing kickboxing at, and
(09:41):
I took them. My mom let me take them. The
woman that works at the gym, who was an adult,
sold them to me. And then, you know, for my mom,
you talk about how yours saw you on stage and thought, okay,
I'm seeing some things up and then at four team
was able to take you somewhere to get help. Like
I love my mom, love her to death, but I
feel like it was a lot of times I was
shooting up all kinds of red flags, but she wasn't
(10:03):
saying we just weren't seeing them. And I think that's
a common thing for some of my listeners that are
mom's is like, how can I know what's going on
with my kid and if something's up for me. I
remember there's a day when I got off those pills.
My mom came to wake me up from school, and
I was begging her to let me just please stay
home because I didn't have my pills and I didn't
want to go, and I felt pretty sure. I told
(10:26):
her I feel so fat and gross, and I don't
have the pills anymore, and that getting off the pills
was honestly my decision, probably because they were too expensive
and I was a teenager, um and my mom maybe
said you're going to buy these for yourself, But also
probably I had some wisdom going on inside of me
that made me think this might not be a good
idea because my heart is racing all of the time.
(10:49):
So I'm thankful that I did get off of them.
That didn't stop me from taking other things throughout the years.
But I just thought, looking back now, it's crazy to
think that adults were surrounding me at that time and
they were okay with me doing this stuff. So I
feel like that's a red flag if you're a mom
listening and your child doesn't want to get up for
(11:11):
school for some reason, and it's just feeling super down
and tired. That could be a red flog for multiple things.
Obviously had some underlying depression stuff going on, but I
think it was stemmed around my obsession with body and food. Yeah,
And I think that there are a lot of generational
(11:31):
ties there, these messages that have started decades ago, and
we see a play out in the media. We see
the projected image of what's beautiful and what it means
to be a woman, and the expectations are just kind
of passed down and passed down. So I almost feel
like my mom's dieting and her friends and my aunts
(11:52):
and uncles who were dieting, it wasn't even their fault, right,
I think they were like the front line, Like those
were the people who were hurting, just like they were
hurting in their own way then and just passing down
the message because they didn't know any better. And so
it got to us, and now we're here trying to
break generational patterns of body hatred and self harm. And
(12:14):
it goes even deeper than just food and body, right,
like even emotional and mental like other mental health illnesses
that we're trying to destigmatize and hold space for and
share experiences to uplift each other and to normalize them
so that people know that they're not alone and that
we can like end the cycle. There there many times
I've had to like forgive people who were the adults
(12:37):
in my life who kind of introduced me to the
road of dieting and set me on that spiral to
my eating disorder because they didn't know any better. I
haven't thought about going that route of maybe the forgiveness
peace and maybe how important that might be for me
to let that go, because now I'm all bitter towards
people that sold me the pills um. But that could
(12:57):
be an important step because it does us with us
for a very long time. But then we have a
choice of where do we want to end it. And
you and I are both moms and we don't want
to pass that down to our daughters. And again, my
mom didn't mean any harm, but yeah, she was fine.
If I wanted to do a diet, she was fine.
If I wanted to work out twice a day, she
was fine. If we did diets together like it was
(13:20):
totally fine, but yeah, there was no conversation that this
wasn't normal. But here we are. However, many years later
that was six or something. What year were you born? Okay,
so we're ten years apart, we who still had moms
that were probably really similar. I wasn't seeing this type
of rhetoric that we have now until the last few years.
(13:41):
So there's a lot of undoing, Like even me for
a mom, I've been a mom for three years and
I've had to undo stuff I was doing the first
year for sure. So for moms that may not be
dialed in with what they eating, disorder can't show maybe
even in their own life or their child's life, like
what you recommend moms do, is there a conversation? How
(14:03):
do you pick up on some of these things that
aren't visible. I think the very first piece of that
is creating a guilt free, judge free, healthy conversation or
community like expectation for communication within your family, and just
allowing your kids to feel safe coming to you if
they are struggling in their bodies or they are feeling
(14:25):
uncomfortable in their own skin. I see clients as young
as thirteen who feel as if their parent doesn't welcome
the dialogue that they don't understand. Sometimes not all of
the time, but sometimes and and so I think they
get really resistant to talking to mom or dad. And
sometimes I think that could be changed if there's right
(14:47):
off the bat, just like a welcoming judgment, free you
can come to me about anything, expectation for communication within
the family dynamic. That kind of sets the tone moving
forward for your child to say, hey, you know, i've
been struggling with this or I've been feeling this and
I'm really confused. And I think that also plays into
normalizing discussing bodies. You know, like I have a little
(15:11):
boy and I let him run around naked after his
bath because like he's a little kid and he's fine,
but there are people who think that's weird. And I'm like,
he's only almost two. But I want to create an
environment in my family where like talking about your body
isn't shameful or weird, and just normalizing having differences among us, right,
(15:32):
And I think just that open, honest, sensitive, safe communication
um and setting that tone early on in life is
really valuable for parents to pass on to their children.
The other thing that I see is like parents being
kind of hands off with social media and thinking that
almost this naive approach to social media, like forgetting that
(15:56):
kids have these fake accounts. It's becoming really common for
young girls to create these fake Instagram accounts and hide
behind them posting things that are kind of encouraged or
following accounts that are encouraging behaviors. So just being aware
as parents that things like this exist, because again, disordered
(16:19):
eating and eating disorders are manipulative, they're secretive. So just
being aware and being tuned in and having really open
communication with your children, I think is one of the
best things we could do. Are you saying they're following
accounts that encourage behavior on how to look a certain way?
What I've seen with some of my clients is that,
you know, maybe their parents has access to their normal
(16:40):
Instagram account, but then they have these fake Instagram accounts
that might be following people that perpetuate toxic behaviors. Gotcha, Okay, No,
that's that's definitely helpful information because, yeah, you want to
protect your kids from that, and if you have the open,
honest communication, if you've got step one of that, you
kind of went over two things there. So the first
thing I love because now I'm just reflecting back again
(17:02):
on my relationship with my mother. We didn't even talk
about my period when I got it. I had to
figure out on my own what to do. I think
one day she realized I was on it, and she
went to the grocery store and she's stuff. Stuff just
started showing up in my bathroom cabinet. There was no conversation.
My mom was a great mom. There was not an
open door policy on me just talking to her about anything.
(17:24):
Although ironically, when I was bulieming in high school, one
of the first people she is, the first person I
went to was my mom because I was scared. But
then I don't think she knew what to do with it.
So she heard me and she listened, but she was
just kind of like, oh gosh, almost for her, she
was overwhelmed. She was a single mom, she worked full time,
(17:45):
I had an older sister. She was heavily involved in
all kinds of other things on the board of like everything.
So she's very busy, and I'll fall her for that,
but part of me wonders if she kept herself busy
to avoid, you know, and my mom's passed away, so
I I will never know because I can't ask her this.
But now that's just me probably trying to break down
why she did what she did. And I don't think
(18:07):
she meant any harm, but she definitely didn't create that
safe space for me. I think I was crying for
it in a way, going to her, making her the
first person of like, hey, this is what you can't
see that's going on with me. You would never know
right now that I've been throwing up my food, but
I'm trying to tell you it's a cry for help.
And I think she lined me up with a therapist,
but then was pretty disengaged after that. And then you
(18:29):
just kind of like, all right, I'll handle this on
my own. But yeah, it starts with other things of
like let's talk about your body. Be comfortable in your skin,
you can run around, nake it. We'll talk about vaginas
and penises and little and not be ashamed of any
of that. So I work as a personal trainer exclusively
with women, and a lot of my clients are prenatal
(18:50):
or postpartum, but I also work with women who don't
have children, and I try to educate them on their
pelvic floor because it's really important A part of our anatomy.
And I see so many women like slink away in shame,
like I don't know what my pelvic floor is or
why are you asking me about my pelvic floor? And
I try to just like be super cool and casual
(19:12):
about it because this is my job. To me, it's
not weird. I'm also a birth doulist, so like with
most of my clients, I've seen them raw as vulnerable
as it gets. But I sometimes I am caught off
guard and then have to bring myself back to the
fact that my mom didn't teach me about my pelvic floor.
My mom didn't teach me how to like embrace my
(19:32):
body just by fostering conversation about healthy sexuality, or it's
easier to build shame around our bodies, and it's a
lot of Yeah, it's a lot harder to have healthy
conversation about our bodies and to make it normal. I
(19:54):
think it's harder because we've made it harder. But then
if you make that the normal, and you do it
like you're trying do from the get go, then it
it will come with ease as they get older. And
you know, I touched on the first thing thinking back
on having the conversation about bodies and being comfortable and open.
But then the second thing you mentioned about the social
media accounts and kids looking elsewhere for information instead of
(20:19):
coming to you for that information or maybe even looking
elsewhere for validation and worth. And I mean, that's the whole,
another rabbit whole we could go down, But I think
it's super important to remind pearance to be involved in
their kids social media and try your hardest to educate
yourself and not be naive. And I get it, it's
it's an extra thing you have to add to your
list that is very daunting that other generations didn't have
(20:42):
to deal with. But each generation is going to have
their new challenges, and social media is one that we
have to manage that better. We have responsibility for ourselves
and what accounts were following and who are what are what?
What are we following? What information are we trying to
receive from the accounts that we follow? But then gosh,
that our kids might be sneaking around to have these
(21:03):
other accounts for some of that scary makes me think
of I used to look to places I think for
that too. I don't even remember remember really what it
was if it was certain movies or got a VHS
tape or something, or maybe when YouTube came out, I
would look for that sometimes as a young adult, just
(21:24):
hoping that someone would be posting up something that would
be beneficial to feed my behaviors. When I was in
high school, at my sickest, there were holidays when my
entire family would be at my grandparents house and I
would lock myself in the compute like the room with
the computer and look at pro anorexia sites. So what
(21:45):
I did, I just scoured the internet looking for solace.
It became like a game almost for me, like I
had rules that I could follow, and I had goals
to strive toward. And I think these webs sites have
been predominantly shut down now. Oh, I hope so. And
I think that's why too. Even here on the podcast,
(22:06):
where we're careful with what content we say, and we'll
give trigger warnings if someone might be trying to use
our podcast as a way to learn tricks and tips,
and hopefully we do a good job of not giving
them that. But we're not perfect, and people are sharing
their stories and we want people to be raw and
vulnerable and real and give certain details and not have
(22:28):
to edit themselves. But the reality is that sometimes that's
what people are on the prow for, right And I
think to Instagram for a while. I think that started
a few years ago they started putting up trigger warning
notifications on any posts that had anything to do with
eating disorders, which I thought was a really cool step
in the right direction. It's still very new, right, Like
(22:49):
I mean, we're talking about again, decades of these behaviors
just kind of going swept under the rug or kept
like his tidy little secrets, And now I think it
just goes to show the power of sharing our voices
and reducing stigma and shame. It can lead to really
big things. It seems like a really small step when
you open up and talk about something that's scary and vulnerable,
(23:12):
but looking at little steps like that, like getting these
toxic websites shut down and getting these trigger warning protocols
in place on major apps, that started somewhere. It started
with someone speaking up and sharing their story and having
this trickling effect of advocacy. Circling back to the post
you put up in the caption, part of what you
(23:34):
wrote was, I think it's so important to also acknowledge
the many emotional, physical, and psychological effects these illnesses can
have on our lives. For me, so many of these
side effects were crippling, yet no one could ever really know.
And then scrolling down, you wrote that, fortunately, our bodies
are incredible things. They heal given the chance. The majority
(23:55):
of the things on this list have been resolved, and
my body is strong, healthy and capable. If they things
I once wasn't sure it could ever do, I e
becoming pregnant, So I love like closing this out with
that there's hope and that while this is a list
of things that you're eating disort of, could it show
you but we're definitely all you at the time, They're
(24:16):
not you anymore. And so you were able to get pregnant.
So that loss of innistrution that came back, Um, you
know you're you're just know like, how gosh the mood
swings that was me that day. I didn't want to
have school. My poor mom. I was awful to her.
And then you wrote, no matter who you are, where
are you on your journey, you deserve recovery. Your body
deserves recovery. If you're struggling, your weight isn't what makes
(24:39):
you sick enough, it's the behaviors, it's the fear, it's
the thoughts, it's the isolation, it's the pain, it's the risks,
it's all of it. It all makes you worthy of
support and care. And then you encourage people to seek help.
And you listed some of your favorite therapists and registered
dieticians to follow. So yeah, we'll put your Instagram in
the show notes and people can go check out that post.
(24:59):
But I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing and then
the content that you give us, and I really feel
like it's a huge takeaway from this conversation. Today was
for me as a mom, I need to make sure
that I'm making everything comfortable for my kids so they
can come to me no matter what, because the topic
may not be eating disorders, but if I go ahead
(25:21):
and just make everything comfortable, she may be able to
come to me about a boy thing or some other
thing that she might be struggling with, or my son
down the line when he's a little older he might
be struggling with. I love that advice. So Caitlin, thank
you so much for joining us, and make sure that yes,
you'll definitely check out the show notes so you can
(25:43):
get all of Caitlin's info. And we were talking before
we came on too about how Instagram is just so
weird the day algorithm, Like sometimes posts are getting missed
and it's so horrible. I know my friend that runs
the shop for she's having it, like I don't understand
sometimes why they put their stup for all the world
to see, and then other times like I don't even
(26:03):
see some of my friends posts at all. So I
would just encourage you to make sure if you like
someone's account, to like on their posts to comment. I
heard too, if you send a d M to certain accounts,
then Instagram will see like, oh, this person must really
like their content, so I'm gonna start throwing it back
into the feed. There's a little trick if you feel
(26:24):
like you're missing certain people's things on Instagram. Engagement is
so huge, so make sure you engage all right. Um,
I hope you'll have a great rest of your day.
I
I won't let my body out outwell everything that I'm
made do. Won't spend my life trying to change. I'm
learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
I feel free, I know who every part of me
it's beautiful and then will always outwa if you feel
(00:24):
it with you in there, she's some love to the
boy there. Let's say good day and did you and
die out? Hey, Outweigh fam, I've got Caitlin Wasniak joining
me today. Amy here, Lisa's not with us, It's just
me and Caitlin. But Lisa, if you're listening, Hey, why Lisa?
(00:44):
We miss you. Caitlin is a personal trainer specializing in
women's fitness, pre impost natal specialist, a birth doula, and
an eating disorder survivor. And she did join us on
season one of Outweigh. That was on my four Things
podcast a year ago, on my year ago. So I'm
glad to have you back and sitting down with us.
And you know, we're going to get into a post
(01:05):
that you put up on Instagram that I really loved.
And if people want to know your Instagram account, because
Caitlin was Niak her name, but her Instagram account is
a little bit different, so we're gonna put it in
the show notes. But it's Caitlin Tonay Caitlyn today. It
confuses everyone. Yeah, so this post that you put up
was what my eating disorder couldn't show you. And then
(01:27):
there was a list of things and I'll just rattle
them off real quick and then you can speak to
the post. But it was loss of menstruation, osteopenia, dizziness
in passing out, sharp pain and joints after sitting for
stretches of time, memory decreases, mood swings, decreased body temperature,
diminished energy, and excessive napping, supervised meals with the high
(01:48):
school nurse, obsessive thoughts about food, self harm, chronic negative
self talk, anxiety, strained relationships, g I issues. So yeah,
what would someone that looked at you from outside, what
would they have seen during that time? But really this
was going on on the inside at that time. Those
side effects or red flags symptoms were appearing even though
(02:11):
I wasn't at my lowest weight and I hadn't lost
even the most significant amount of weight in my eating disorder,
so I was seemingly at a normal weight, a healthy
weight um on the lower end for probably my age
and heighten whatever I roll at the b m I scale.
But you know, just a glimpse at me from an outsider.
(02:32):
I don't think people were concerned about my health and
well being. But meanwhile, I was already feeling the effects
of my eating disorder, sinking in all the variety of
ways you just read right old for you about this time.
So when I started dieting, I was thirteen when I
was introduced to diets, and it started as a low
carb diet. Every adult that I knew, my mom, her friends,
(02:54):
I had, aunts and uncles were all on the Atkins diet.
And I started going through puberty around the same time,
and I got really uncomfortable in my body weight gain curves. Right,
all those things that were just so foreign and new
to me, we're also getting me a lot of male
attention that made me very uncomfortable, and I wanted to
(03:15):
shrink my body. So I asked my mom if she
would help me diet, and she didn't know any better, right,
She just gave me a rule book and helped me
pack salads for lunch with dressing on the side and
hundred calorie pack snacks, and I was fourteen when I
was formally diagnosed with my eating disorder. And so you
wrote in this post you said, I remember going into
(03:36):
treatment at Hopkins for the first time, looking around and
telling my mom, I don't belong here. I'm not as
sick as everyone else. So how old were you at
that time? Okay, so that was at fourteen that you
went and sought treatment as well. Yes, okay, Well that
happened fast, fast, very fast. So a story that my
mom often kind of recalls and I tell to people
that I mentor work with. At the time, around thirteen,
(03:57):
I was competing in pageants, So I was competing for
Miss Marylyn ten USA, and that fall so maybe like
September roughly, I had bought my evening gown and it
fit perfectly, and by November when I competed at the pageant,
it was virtually falling off of me on stage. And
my mom always says that was the first time she
(04:18):
really noticed that I had a real problem, because up
until that point my weight seemed normal to her. But
it was you know, you see someone every day all
day and you kind of turn a blind eye to
the behaviors because you don't want to face the truth sometimes,
and that I think for her was a really staggering
experience to say, my daughter has an issue and she's
(04:41):
up there seemingly healthy and smiling and happy on a
stage under lights and a beautiful evening gown with hair
and makeup, but things were not good well, and when
you looked around and said, mom, I don't belong here,
like I'm not as sick as everyone else. Now, you
were fourteen, but that could be someone's experience at five,
right at forty five, at sixty, and so what would
(05:04):
you say to people that might be thinking that or
maybe outweighs where they get this content or they start
following people on Instagram like y'all, and they that's the
content they're receiving and they start to just think to
themselves like, uh, I get what they're saying that I'm
not that bad, So I don't I don't understand why
I'm even trying to understand this. Yeah, I mean, first
(05:25):
of all, we all say that. We all say that
when we're sick and we're struggling, and at every stage
of our journey with disordered eating a clinical diagnosis, whether
we're in treatment or actively in recovery, none of us
think that we're that sick because they're eating disorders are
very manipulative, so it's important to kind of dig your
(05:46):
heels in and kind of call ourselves out when that
voice creeps in. But I would always say, like, it's
not just about the physical body or the number on
the scale, it's all these other things when we're the
ones you list, like, that was a long list a lot,
and so if you're if you are getting dizzy upon
standing up because you're malnourished or dehydrated, or if your
(06:07):
joints are aching, or if your periods stop, if you're isolating,
and we kind of hit on this last time on
the Four Things podcast. The tendency to isolate out of
depression is big in its own right. But then they're
also times when you might isolate or cancel plans to
(06:29):
overly exercise, or because you're uncomfortable being out in a
restaurant where you don't have control over food. So these
are all things that interfere with our quality of life
that may not be exclusive to our weight or what
is happening externally, but internally it's freaking havoc on our
bodies and our minds. Yeah, I think that that's a
(06:50):
huge red flag is avoiding social events, choosing workouts over relationships,
and being scared of food if you can't control what's
in it. But for some reason, I lived that way
for years and they weren't red flags to me, but
they're so obvious right now. I thought, well, the healthy
thing for me to do is to choose the workout
(07:12):
right now. You know, probably was denial. I didn't see
how that was actually me hurting and being really sad.
And yeah, it breaks my heart to know that I
chose so many nights alone over going to be with
people because of those different reasons. And I think it's
interesting because there's part of me that wonders back then,
(07:34):
I didn't recognize them either. That's why I wrote that post,
because back then, it just seems, well, this is my life, right,
this is what it is, and this doesn't I'm not
sick enough so these things aren't necessarily but you were
still functioning, functioning. But I also wondered too if some
of it now. Back then, there was no one talking
about eating disorders when I was sick. It was still
(07:56):
so stigmatized and still so taboo, and I knew very
few people who shared their experiences. So part of me
was just living in a secret, and so any red flags,
even if they did, kind of strike me as concerning.
I didn't have anyone leading the charge in front of
me to say it's okay to say like you need help.
(08:18):
And I hope for people that there is a little
bit of a shift right even this podcast, Like, it's
beautiful to see so many people be really open about
their struggles in whatever capacity and at whatever level that
is for them. Maybe they'd share their story with just
one person or maybe their own podcasts. Disclosing stories so
that we can empower other people is really such a
(08:38):
beautiful gift. That's the only reason why I think I
share her half the more than half the stuff, well, no, everything,
what am I talking about? I feel like even on
the Bobby Bone, Joe or four things are here on
that way, it's like, okay, if I can use my
experience for good now so that somebody else doesn't feel alone,
then I didn't just go through that for no reason.
(09:00):
And it doesn't mean that everybody has that calling to
put their story out there so that others don't feel alone.
It may not, and you know, may not mean that
you have to share your story publicly, but maybe just
speaking to a best friend or a family member about
it or a therapist and making sure that you're you're
voicing it. It doesn't mean, you know, you have to
proclaim to the world like this is what's going on
(09:20):
with me right now, But if you eventually feel led
to do that, then by all means your story will
come in handy at some point. And you know, we
were talking a little bit before we were recording, because
when I was in high school, I remember taking these
pills that were exercise pills. I guess I got them
from this gym that I was doing kickboxing at, and
(09:41):
I took them. My mom let me take them. The
woman that works at the gym, who was an adult,
sold them to me. And then, you know, for my mom,
you talk about how yours saw you on stage and thought, okay,
I'm seeing some things up and then at four team
was able to take you somewhere to get help. Like
I love my mom, love her to death, but I
feel like it was a lot of times I was
shooting up all kinds of red flags, but she wasn't
(10:03):
saying we just weren't seeing them. And I think that's
a common thing for some of my listeners that are
mom's is like, how can I know what's going on
with my kid and if something's up for me. I
remember there's a day when I got off those pills.
My mom came to wake me up from school, and
I was begging her to let me just please stay
home because I didn't have my pills and I didn't
want to go, and I felt pretty sure. I told
(10:26):
her I feel so fat and gross, and I don't
have the pills anymore, and that getting off the pills
was honestly my decision, probably because they were too expensive
and I was a teenager, um and my mom maybe
said you're going to buy these for yourself, But also
probably I had some wisdom going on inside of me
that made me think this might not be a good
idea because my heart is racing all of the time.
(10:49):
So I'm thankful that I did get off of them.
That didn't stop me from taking other things throughout the years.
But I just thought, looking back now, it's crazy to
think that adults were surrounding me at that time and
they were okay with me doing this stuff. So I
feel like that's a red flag if you're a mom
listening and your child doesn't want to get up for
(11:11):
school for some reason, and it's just feeling super down
and tired. That could be a red flog for multiple things.
Obviously had some underlying depression stuff going on, but I
think it was stemmed around my obsession with body and food. Yeah,
And I think that there are a lot of generational
(11:31):
ties there, these messages that have started decades ago, and
we see a play out in the media. We see
the projected image of what's beautiful and what it means
to be a woman, and the expectations are just kind
of passed down and passed down. So I almost feel
like my mom's dieting and her friends and my aunts
(11:52):
and uncles who were dieting, it wasn't even their fault, right,
I think they were like the front line, Like those
were the people who were hurting, just like they were
hurting in their own way then and just passing down
the message because they didn't know any better. And so
it got to us, and now we're here trying to
break generational patterns of body hatred and self harm. And
(12:14):
it goes even deeper than just food and body, right,
like even emotional and mental like other mental health illnesses
that we're trying to destigmatize and hold space for and
share experiences to uplift each other and to normalize them
so that people know that they're not alone and that
we can like end the cycle. There there many times
I've had to like forgive people who were the adults
(12:37):
in my life who kind of introduced me to the
road of dieting and set me on that spiral to
my eating disorder because they didn't know any better. I
haven't thought about going that route of maybe the forgiveness
peace and maybe how important that might be for me
to let that go, because now I'm all bitter towards
people that sold me the pills um. But that could
(12:57):
be an important step because it does us with us
for a very long time. But then we have a
choice of where do we want to end it. And
you and I are both moms and we don't want
to pass that down to our daughters. And again, my
mom didn't mean any harm, but yeah, she was fine.
If I wanted to do a diet, she was fine.
If I wanted to work out twice a day, she
was fine. If we did diets together like it was
(13:20):
totally fine, but yeah, there was no conversation that this
wasn't normal. But here we are. However, many years later
that was six or something. What year were you born? Okay,
so we're ten years apart, we who still had moms
that were probably really similar. I wasn't seeing this type
of rhetoric that we have now until the last few years.
(13:41):
So there's a lot of undoing, Like even me for
a mom, I've been a mom for three years and
I've had to undo stuff I was doing the first
year for sure. So for moms that may not be
dialed in with what they eating, disorder can't show maybe
even in their own life or their child's life, like
what you recommend moms do, is there a conversation? How
(14:03):
do you pick up on some of these things that
aren't visible. I think the very first piece of that
is creating a guilt free, judge free, healthy conversation or
community like expectation for communication within your family, and just
allowing your kids to feel safe coming to you if
they are struggling in their bodies or they are feeling
(14:25):
uncomfortable in their own skin. I see clients as young
as thirteen who feel as if their parent doesn't welcome
the dialogue that they don't understand. Sometimes not all of
the time, but sometimes and and so I think they
get really resistant to talking to mom or dad. And
sometimes I think that could be changed if there's right
(14:47):
off the bat, just like a welcoming judgment, free you
can come to me about anything, expectation for communication within
the family dynamic. That kind of sets the tone moving
forward for your child to say, hey, you know, i've
been struggling with this or I've been feeling this and
I'm really confused. And I think that also plays into
normalizing discussing bodies. You know, like I have a little
(15:11):
boy and I let him run around naked after his
bath because like he's a little kid and he's fine,
but there are people who think that's weird. And I'm like,
he's only almost two. But I want to create an
environment in my family where like talking about your body
isn't shameful or weird, and just normalizing having differences among us, right,
(15:32):
And I think just that open, honest, sensitive, safe communication
um and setting that tone early on in life is
really valuable for parents to pass on to their children.
The other thing that I see is like parents being
kind of hands off with social media and thinking that
almost this naive approach to social media, like forgetting that
(15:56):
kids have these fake accounts. It's becoming really common for
young girls to create these fake Instagram accounts and hide
behind them posting things that are kind of encouraged or
following accounts that are encouraging behaviors. So just being aware
as parents that things like this exist, because again, disordered
(16:19):
eating and eating disorders are manipulative, they're secretive. So just
being aware and being tuned in and having really open
communication with your children, I think is one of the
best things we could do. Are you saying they're following
accounts that encourage behavior on how to look a certain way?
What I've seen with some of my clients is that,
you know, maybe their parents has access to their normal
(16:40):
Instagram account, but then they have these fake Instagram accounts
that might be following people that perpetuate toxic behaviors. Gotcha, Okay, No,
that's that's definitely helpful information because, yeah, you want to
protect your kids from that, and if you have the open,
honest communication, if you've got step one of that, you
kind of went over two things there. So the first
thing I love because now I'm just reflecting back again
(17:02):
on my relationship with my mother. We didn't even talk
about my period when I got it. I had to
figure out on my own what to do. I think
one day she realized I was on it, and she
went to the grocery store and she's stuff. Stuff just
started showing up in my bathroom cabinet. There was no conversation.
My mom was a great mom. There was not an
open door policy on me just talking to her about anything.
(17:24):
Although ironically, when I was bulieming in high school, one
of the first people she is, the first person I
went to was my mom because I was scared. But
then I don't think she knew what to do with it.
So she heard me and she listened, but she was
just kind of like, oh gosh, almost for her, she
was overwhelmed. She was a single mom, she worked full time,
(17:45):
I had an older sister. She was heavily involved in
all kinds of other things on the board of like everything.
So she's very busy, and I'll fall her for that,
but part of me wonders if she kept herself busy
to avoid, you know, and my mom's passed away, so
I I will never know because I can't ask her this.
But now that's just me probably trying to break down
why she did what she did. And I don't think
(18:07):
she meant any harm, but she definitely didn't create that
safe space for me. I think I was crying for
it in a way, going to her, making her the
first person of like, hey, this is what you can't
see that's going on with me. You would never know
right now that I've been throwing up my food, but
I'm trying to tell you it's a cry for help.
And I think she lined me up with a therapist,
but then was pretty disengaged after that. And then you
(18:29):
just kind of like, all right, I'll handle this on
my own. But yeah, it starts with other things of
like let's talk about your body. Be comfortable in your skin,
you can run around, nake it. We'll talk about vaginas
and penises and little and not be ashamed of any
of that. So I work as a personal trainer exclusively
with women, and a lot of my clients are prenatal
(18:50):
or postpartum, but I also work with women who don't
have children, and I try to educate them on their
pelvic floor because it's really important A part of our anatomy.
And I see so many women like slink away in shame,
like I don't know what my pelvic floor is or
why are you asking me about my pelvic floor? And
I try to just like be super cool and casual
(19:12):
about it because this is my job. To me, it's
not weird. I'm also a birth doulist, so like with
most of my clients, I've seen them raw as vulnerable
as it gets. But I sometimes I am caught off
guard and then have to bring myself back to the
fact that my mom didn't teach me about my pelvic floor.
My mom didn't teach me how to like embrace my
(19:32):
body just by fostering conversation about healthy sexuality, or it's
easier to build shame around our bodies, and it's a
lot of Yeah, it's a lot harder to have healthy
conversation about our bodies and to make it normal. I
(19:54):
think it's harder because we've made it harder. But then
if you make that the normal, and you do it
like you're trying do from the get go, then it
it will come with ease as they get older. And
you know, I touched on the first thing thinking back
on having the conversation about bodies and being comfortable and open.
But then the second thing you mentioned about the social
media accounts and kids looking elsewhere for information instead of
(20:19):
coming to you for that information or maybe even looking
elsewhere for validation and worth. And I mean, that's the whole,
another rabbit whole we could go down, But I think
it's super important to remind pearance to be involved in
their kids social media and try your hardest to educate
yourself and not be naive. And I get it, it's
it's an extra thing you have to add to your
list that is very daunting that other generations didn't have
(20:42):
to deal with. But each generation is going to have
their new challenges, and social media is one that we
have to manage that better. We have responsibility for ourselves
and what accounts were following and who are what are what?
What are we following? What information are we trying to
receive from the accounts that we follow? But then gosh,
that our kids might be sneaking around to have these
(21:03):
other accounts for some of that scary makes me think
of I used to look to places I think for
that too. I don't even remember remember really what it
was if it was certain movies or got a VHS
tape or something, or maybe when YouTube came out, I
would look for that sometimes as a young adult, just
(21:24):
hoping that someone would be posting up something that would
be beneficial to feed my behaviors. When I was in
high school, at my sickest, there were holidays when my
entire family would be at my grandparents house and I
would lock myself in the compute like the room with
the computer and look at pro anorexia sites. So what
(21:45):
I did, I just scoured the internet looking for solace.
It became like a game almost for me, like I
had rules that I could follow, and I had goals
to strive toward. And I think these webs sites have
been predominantly shut down now. Oh, I hope so. And
I think that's why too. Even here on the podcast,
(22:06):
where we're careful with what content we say, and we'll
give trigger warnings if someone might be trying to use
our podcast as a way to learn tricks and tips,
and hopefully we do a good job of not giving
them that. But we're not perfect, and people are sharing
their stories and we want people to be raw and
vulnerable and real and give certain details and not have
(22:28):
to edit themselves. But the reality is that sometimes that's
what people are on the prow for, right And I
think to Instagram for a while. I think that started
a few years ago they started putting up trigger warning
notifications on any posts that had anything to do with
eating disorders, which I thought was a really cool step
in the right direction. It's still very new, right, Like
(22:49):
I mean, we're talking about again, decades of these behaviors
just kind of going swept under the rug or kept
like his tidy little secrets, And now I think it
just goes to show the power of sharing our voices
and reducing stigma and shame. It can lead to really
big things. It seems like a really small step when
you open up and talk about something that's scary and vulnerable,
(23:12):
but looking at little steps like that, like getting these
toxic websites shut down and getting these trigger warning protocols
in place on major apps, that started somewhere. It started
with someone speaking up and sharing their story and having
this trickling effect of advocacy. Circling back to the post
you put up in the caption, part of what you
(23:34):
wrote was, I think it's so important to also acknowledge
the many emotional, physical, and psychological effects these illnesses can
have on our lives. For me, so many of these
side effects were crippling, yet no one could ever really know.
And then scrolling down, you wrote that, fortunately, our bodies
are incredible things. They heal given the chance. The majority
(23:55):
of the things on this list have been resolved, and
my body is strong, healthy and capable. If they things
I once wasn't sure it could ever do, I e
becoming pregnant, So I love like closing this out with
that there's hope and that while this is a list
of things that you're eating disort of, could it show
you but we're definitely all you at the time, They're
(24:16):
not you anymore. And so you were able to get pregnant.
So that loss of innistrution that came back, Um, you
know you're you're just know like, how gosh the mood
swings that was me that day. I didn't want to
have school. My poor mom. I was awful to her.
And then you wrote, no matter who you are, where
are you on your journey, you deserve recovery. Your body
deserves recovery. If you're struggling, your weight isn't what makes
(24:39):
you sick enough, it's the behaviors, it's the fear, it's
the thoughts, it's the isolation, it's the pain, it's the risks,
it's all of it. It all makes you worthy of
support and care. And then you encourage people to seek help.
And you listed some of your favorite therapists and registered
dieticians to follow. So yeah, we'll put your Instagram in
the show notes and people can go check out that post.
(24:59):
But I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing and then
the content that you give us, and I really feel
like it's a huge takeaway from this conversation. Today was
for me as a mom, I need to make sure
that I'm making everything comfortable for my kids so they
can come to me no matter what, because the topic
may not be eating disorders, but if I go ahead
(25:21):
and just make everything comfortable, she may be able to
come to me about a boy thing or some other
thing that she might be struggling with, or my son
down the line when he's a little older he might
be struggling with. I love that advice. So Caitlin, thank
you so much for joining us, and make sure that yes,
you'll definitely check out the show notes so you can
(25:43):
get all of Caitlin's info. And we were talking before
we came on too about how Instagram is just so
weird the day algorithm, Like sometimes posts are getting missed
and it's so horrible. I know my friend that runs
the shop for she's having it, like I don't understand
sometimes why they put their stup for all the world
to see, and then other times like I don't even
(26:03):
see some of my friends posts at all. So I
would just encourage you to make sure if you like
someone's account, to like on their posts to comment. I
heard too, if you send a d M to certain accounts,
then Instagram will see like, oh, this person must really
like their content, so I'm gonna start throwing it back
into the feed. There's a little trick if you feel
(26:24):
like you're missing certain people's things on Instagram. Engagement is
so huge, so make sure you engage all right. Um,
I hope you'll have a great rest of your day.
I
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Amy Brown
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