Best Of Outweigh!

We’re joined by eating disorder therapist Jennifer Rollin (@jennifer_rollin) who explains what disordered eating is and how you can best care for yourself or a loved one you witness struggling.

Lisa and Amy talk with Kathryn Defatta (@kat.defatta) and dive into more of Amy's personal story. 

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@lisahayim

@radioamy

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Maybe that's Lisa, and we're just two girls that want
to have a conversation with you. Dear sixteen year old Andrea,
Hey gorgeous, Dear younger Lauren. Each episode is stories from people.
I would deprive myself by myself obsessively because I was
eating healthy. I couldn't understand that I had a problem
with food. Losing my period scared me the most. My
story starts when I was around seven. That's when I

(00:24):
started to hate my body. Body image is like our
inner picture of our outer self. Healthy behaviors play a
much bigger role at all health than the actual number
on the scales. Internal dialogue could be so powerful, and
often it's super negative and critical in a way that
we wouldn't talk to other people that we care about.
When you start to share your story, that gives other

(00:44):
people the courage to share theirs. I know you would
be proud now of how far you have come in
your relationship to food, exercise, and to yourself. I felt freedom,
I've gained relationships. I've found my true sense of self worth.
There's one thing I need you to take away. You're
going to be okay, all right. It's the day after Christmas.

(01:07):
And uh, for some people, you might be waking up
to a cozy cup of coffee, hanging out with your family.
But for some people, the reality is you might be
waking up alone because Christmas looks a lot different this year,
and maybe you had to self quarantine, or you weren't
able to travel, or you weren't able to be with
your family. And I want to recognize too that we

(01:28):
keep talking about how is different, but also there's the
reality that some years holidays are just never awesome for
some people, depending on their family circumstances or their family dynamic.
So that's not lost on us either. It's just sometimes
we speak to what we're in and has been weird
because maybe normally, yeah, you would be with family, but

(01:49):
you're not today, or again maybe you are. But our
hope is that wherever you are, that this holiday season
and it will continue because we got new year, or
on the corner around the horizon, different things going on.
There might be leftovers from yesterday in the fridge, pie
calling your name, whatever, And I hope that this year

(02:10):
for you looks so different because for me, I think
of Christmas pasts where I would have eaten everything that
was prepared by all the amazing people in my family
that can cook so well. And then the day after
I was like at the gym, juicing, doing all the
things to undo the damage I had done. So I

(02:31):
just hope that you've joined us in outweigh the last
several months, and maybe you've learned some stuff and you've
been given the tools to give yourself that permission to
no matter what you ate yesterday on Christmas Day, and
no matter how you're waking up today, you can eat
breakfast however much you want, whatever you want. You don't

(02:52):
have to go to the gym. You can go get
the pie out, it doesn't matter. I mean, Leasa, you
might be able to speak to this more because I
thank Lisa lot for my growth in this area. There
was several different things that contributed to me finding this
piece that I now have with food, but Lesa is
a huge reason for that. Thank you, And I mean
they're I've been there too, So I'm not just speaking

(03:14):
as you know, the the expert. I'm speaking right now
from the person that also has been there, whether it
was Thanksgiving or even just you know, a Sunday night
or whatever it was, when we put these days on
pedestals for whatever reasons, that the shift really happens when
you recognize the noise. You know, I call my courses
forth the noise, but you don't need to take my

(03:36):
courses to understand the concept. The concept is when you
were caught up in either inner noise, which can be worry, guilt, shame,
feeling like you need to compensate, you can notice what
that feels like in your body and recognize you're not
your best self right now, and in order to be
your best self, you need to calm down and give
your body what it needs. And as long as we

(03:56):
continue to you know, do the juice cleanses or you know,
make up for a Christmas Day, the more we stay
stuck in this this really bad cycle that isn't the
true us. So again, you know, we've done so much
this year on that way, and thank you for everybody
who made that way possible. So feel free to also
just revisit any episodes because these shifts in our mindset

(04:18):
and our behavior take time, So really listen to whatever
feels good for you. And we kind of picked out
some of the best of of this year to try
and help you kind of get there today or whatever
day you're listening to this, if it's not the day
after Christmas. And we've had so many experts and guests
just hopefully just reminding you that you're not alone, your
body is not broken, but it is definitely time to

(04:39):
change the way we think so that we can really
live our fullest lives. I love that I want to
share a small joy from my recovery, and at least
so while I'm sharing it, you can be thinking of
one because we didn't discuss this before. But a small
joy for me was that I got to make a
brownie recipe that Mary and I include it in our

(05:00):
Four Things Gratitude journal. It's it's a journal that you
write down what you're thankful for, but we both included
family recipes inside, and mine was a macaroni and cheese dish,
and then hers was this amazing brownie dish from her grandma,
and nothing was gluten free and was like all these
food rules I used to have around, Okay, if I'm
gonna have a brownie, it needs to be X y

(05:21):
Z for me to eat it. And it was all
kinds of ingredients I would have never allowed myself, and
I whipped it up, made it with my daughter, which
was super fun and she thought they were so tasty.
And then earlier this week, I ate a brownie for
breakfast and I even just felt like that was a
small joy for me. I made a cup of coffee,
I sat down to work on my puzzle. I ate

(05:43):
the brownie, and that, to me was a moment that
I don't think I would have had, and it was
just me by myself, like nothing around. But I thought, Okay,
diet culture says no to this all day long, and
that's how we learned stuff like that. Society tells us
you're gonna eat that brownie and you're gonna eat it
for breakfast, and you're gonna like insert whatever. And so

(06:06):
for me that was a small joy in my recovery.
And just pay even that noise. You know, Okay, you're
gonna eat that brownie. You're gonna eat you know it
for breakfast, and oh look at you, you're still going
you know, all those noises are clues that you're entering
disconnection and you're going to then, you know, partaking the
last chance mentality where okay, well I might as well
keep eating all of the brownie. And what a beautiful

(06:29):
moment that you had with yourself, Amy, like, those are
the seeds of planting a really radically different relationship to
yourself than the one that you know, we've been taught
to kind of have. Okay, my joys have been not
so much in the actual foods that I'm eating, because
i feel like I've gotten some good, you know, freedoms
around that. But one of the things that really like

(06:49):
lights my heart on fire and makes me feel really
proud of me and so grateful that I did this
work or I do this work every day is really like,
my husband has been working crazy hours and I normly
really try and wait for him for dinner, but lately
it's just been too much to wait for him. I
can't eat at ten thirty at night multiple times a night,
so I've been eating my dinner alone, which can be

(07:10):
a little bit lonely, and then when he comes home, Um,
you know, I could have have different options there. I
could just put food in front of him, I could
have it waiting for him and be in bed, But
I've actually been partaking and also eating with him simply
because sometimes sharing sharing a meal for me is just
a really powerful way to stay connected and even if
I'm not you know, hungry or in the mood for

(07:30):
that food or any of that. Having a few bites
and just sharing those moments together they make such a
big difference in our relationship, and I value that relationship
so much, and I recognize that that's not something that
I would have ever, you know, done five six, seven
years ago. Yes, being able to put I feel like
I can speak for you here on this, Lisa, But

(07:52):
for a lot of years, both of us probably spent
a lot of time and energy putting food and working
out above relationships for sure. And then even if I
were to eat with him, you know, it wouldn't be
because I wanted to spend time with him. It would
be because like this whole other mindset in my mind
was really dragging me away from the moment. I might
be eating with him, but I'm thinking about, you know,
what I have to do because I ate this food.

(08:14):
And it's nice that food can just be a vehicle
to connect period. It just is so different. Yeah, and
your brain is there with him and with five different
places on how you're gonna And I know months ago,
this may even have been last year. We probably was
last year, and weird, but you were talking about, or
maybe you were just sharing an experience from early on

(08:34):
in your recovery, like you were at a bachelorette party
or traveling with girlfriends, and normally you would have not
been able to order things off room service and you
would have woken up first thing and went to the gym.
But you were able to just order whatever with your girlfriends,
have a good night at the hotel, and then not
wake up and rush off to the gym totally, which
is again about relationships, and I've been there. It makes

(08:56):
me think too. Before we get into this best of episode.
General for Rolin is someone that we both admire a
lot and follow on Instagram, and she actually posted the
other day a small joy of her recovery, and she said,
choosing to sleep in with your partner instead of feeling
like you have to rush off to the gym. I
think that applies even if you don't have a partner,
Like I mean, your moment today eating your brownie, like

(09:18):
the fact that it was alone is so much bigger
than I think we even realize, because having these intimate
moments with ourself are really important. So choosing to lay
in bed with yourself on the day after Christmas if
you're not working, because that just feels good to just like,
you know, kind of self cherished. For lack of a
better word, I don't know if that's kind of the
word I want to go for. It is just a

(09:38):
beautiful moment, like to hold yourself and not rush off
into this defined version of health, Like health is calmness,
it's inner peace. Those are the mindset that change your
chemistry to actually support things like your cardiac health and
inflammation more than the food or the exercise itself. If
that makes sense. Does that makes sense? Absolutely? Our hope

(09:59):
is that you guys close out the end of this
year a little bit more self aware of where you
are with food and and body image stuff and then
give yourself grace. This kind of thing does not happen overnight.
Lisa and I both put in a lot of work,
and so I don't want you to beat yourself up
if you hear us telling a story and you're not

(10:20):
quite there yet, because everybody's journey is different and how
you get there may be different. We just want outweigh
to be a tool that you have in your toolbox
to help you get there. So we hope you enjoy
Today's best of episode and then we will see you
in one Who who we are so excited to welcome

(10:40):
Jennifer Rowlin. She is in eating disorder therapist and founder
of the Eating Disorder Center in Maryland. Welcome Jennifer. Hey,
I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, we're excited to
have you on, especially since you can talk with us
about eating disorder issues and topics and your therapist, you're
the expert. And the first thing we'd love to touch

(11:01):
on with you is orthorexia because I think for a
long time this didn't have a name. I know I
personally had it, but I didn't realize that's what I
was doing and to myself and to my family and
friends that I was hanging out with. Can you talk
to us about what it is? Yeah, And I think
it's so common for people to not know that they

(11:21):
have it. And basically orthorexia is an unhealthy obsession was
so called healthy eating, So what it can look like.
Just some of the main symptoms would be rigid food rule,
so saying things like I don't eat white bread, cutting
out whole food groups for non medical reasons. We also
see social isolation, so starting to avoid events, where the

(11:44):
person can't get their like quote unquote healthy food, spending
hours thinking about food, googling recipes, and then this idea
of purity and morality. So if I eat a certain
way that I'm a good person, but if I eat
a different way that I'm bad. Yes, And I, as
someone who also experience a version of orthorexia, you know
it didn't start like that. How does it start for

(12:04):
most people in your practice or your experience. Sure, so
I'm also recovered myself, and I first experienced orthorexic symptoms
might eating to put are emerged, and I see this
with clients as well. How it usually starts as this
idea of I want to be healthier. That's how it
presents the outside world. So typically people to orthorexia, unlike anorexia,

(12:25):
they're usually very open about what they're eating, kind of
posting the Instagram images it's beautiful, like healthyfied foods, promoting
this idea of health and wellness. But underneath that is
an obsession and high levels of anxiety as well as
like this need for control. So I just want to
be clear too, because there is a difference in wanting
to put nourishing foods into your body and caring about that,

(12:49):
but then being obsessive about it. I mean, how do
how do you tell the difference? Like if someone's listening
at that, they're like, oh, shoot, I do care about
like nutrients and food, and my outer wisdom is telling
me like, this food is something that's going to provide
a lot of healthy vitamins and minerals for my body
and what it needs. But there's a difference. That's not
what we're saying. Absolutely yeah. So it comes down to

(13:12):
this idea of preference versus a rigid rule. So what
I al would say is there's nothing wrong with really
liking kale, right, that's not unhealthy. But for somebody with orthorexia,
it's this idea of I cannot break my food rules,
and if I do, there's extreme anxiety. So it's a
difference between I have a preference for eating this food

(13:32):
this I know it's going to give me nutrients. I've
decided to have this meal because it looks good, versus
I'm eating this meal because these are my safe foods
and anything else is bad. And if I eat anything else,
you know, I'm going to feel terrible about myself or
have to compensate or think about it all day and
anecdotally for myself. You know, it started off of I
love healthy food. I love healthy food, but it was

(13:55):
also really just a vice to control my food in
a new way, in a way where other people wouldn't
question it that you know, I was eating, but I
was eating specific foods, so nobody would ever say, Okay,
she hasn't eating disorder, she doesn't eat. If anything, everybody
would say she eats a lot, because I was always eating,
but always eating safe foods personally for me, Yeah, and

(14:16):
that's so typical. And we might see things and something
I did and my eating disorder, for instance, was I
would bring my own food to cook outs in like
a tepperware and I'd be eating and it would appear
quote unquote healthy, but it wasn't enough calories for my
energy needs and it was very rigid. Yeah, I would
say I could speak to that too. For my family,

(14:38):
my dad, food is his love language and he would
love to cook for us. And I think back on
all the times where I used to just show up
and not eat what he prepared because it wasn't on
my list, and I could get away with it because
I was like, well, Dad, I'm a vegan, gluten free,
you know person now, But I don't even really know

(14:59):
why I put myself into that category. I think some
of it did start because I was trying to get
pregnant and I read a book that was all about
detoxing and how you what certain foods you could put
into your body. But for me, it took it to
the next level. But I had that as my excuse
of Why'm meeting this way because I'm trying to get pregnant.
But I really I liked the results I was seeing

(15:20):
from it, and it snowballed and snowballed to where I
was no longer a We began to fear the things
that you cut out exactly couldn't be flexible. And then
if I let myself have whatever said food that I feared,
then it was like, Okay, I've gone and done this,
so I better eat this food that is on my

(15:42):
fear list for the rest of today and as much
as I can because tomorrow I'm never going to have
it again. Yeah, and that's so common that, like in
compulsive eating restricts cycle, it's incredibly common. And I think
one thing you both pointed out was also how this
eating disorder. I like to call it like the eating
disorder that hides in plain sight, because it's often not

(16:03):
visible to the outside. I people think, oh, that person
is just being healthy, and there's a lot of justifications,
like you said, then you're gluten freeze, then you're dairy freeze.
But secretly, it's that obsession and that desire for control
and not to mention the applaud that comes with oh
I wish I could be healthy like you, or I
should have the discipline like you, where you're being applauded
for this behavior that becomes your identity. So yes, I'm

(16:28):
going to touch on that, because you say your identity.
Somehow I became this person without even really trying to
be that person that people would come to for advice
on what is the next thing I should be doing
or how can I de TALX like a S A P.
And I was like, how did I become this person?
But I realized I became that person because it's all
I talked about, which I probably would now find myself

(16:52):
to be extremely annoying if but I mean, but it's
it is something that a lot of people are interested in,
and they're always trying to find that next thing. So
if you're a person that's up to speed on the
next super food, then you know, of course it's what
you're gonna be talking about and people are gonna ask
you about. And to me, there was nothing satisfying about

(17:12):
being that person. I think at the time I thought
maybe there was, but looking back, I'm like, oh, that
was just so miserable to be fixated on certain foods
that we're going to have all these magical powers because
they were on my my list of approved things I
could eat, And then so hard for people to let
go of that identity too, for some people, because they
do get so much praise from other people and it

(17:33):
becomes part of who they are and they're like, without this,
who am I. The thing about orthorexia was that this
was not a word that was well known. Um I
think it was officially created or termed coined in the nineties,
but we didn't hear about it until really now. And
it's one of those words that I wish I knew
about or I learned about in school, because without it existing,

(17:54):
I thought I was fine. I thought that, okay, I
didn't have anorexia or believe me, a personally so therefore
I was fine, and with the understanding that there's this
gray area which is disordered eating, which orthorexia falls under,
I felt like I could have raised my hand and say, okay,
I see that symptom in me, but without it being there,

(18:15):
without a place to land, I've I suffered for many years. Yeah,
because so tough and unfortunately so common. Again, it's just hard,
I think, to identify that you have a problem when
everyone around you is envious of what you're doing, and
maybe you're surrounding yourself by other people in diet culture,
so it seems very normative. Jennifer, Can you share with

(18:35):
us the difference between eating disorder and disordered eating? Sure?
So for me, the way that I designed disordered eating
is that you don't have a good relationship with food.
Maybe you're following like these external diet rules, You're not
listening to your body, you're casting judgment around certain foods
is good or bad. Perhaps you're not eating enough for

(18:56):
your energy needs, and all of that can be really harmful.
And I think people who struggle with disordered eating deserve
to get care as much as people with eating disorders.
For me, it crosses over into an eating disorder. When
that becomes your whole life. There's a big distinction between dieting,
where like that's one piece of your life, and maybe
it's an unpleasant piece of your life, but it's a
piece of your life. When it's an eating disorder, it

(19:18):
starts to infiltrate every area of your life. And for
many people, at the height of their eating disorder, it's
like every waking thought is about food or when can
I get my next meal? Or when can I use
this behavior. Maybe there's a mom that's listening, or a
family member or a best friend that's listening to this
right now, and they don't necessarily struggle with some of this,

(19:40):
but someone close to them does. What advice do you
have for people in their life? Look for me, I'm
thinking of like if I had a friend listening to
this back when I was really like hyper focused, like
on every little thing that I was eating. To say,
my best friend or my sister would be listening to
us talk right now, and she might be like, oh
my gosh, this is Amy, Like Amy needs to hear
the us, Like, how how can I help any this

(20:02):
is her? What is the best way to do it
without you know, offending somebody or trying to make sure
that you're there for them, you're giving them the best help,
Like what what does that person need? What did I
need from someone when I was during that time? Yeah,
so I think there's a few things. I think the
first step is to express your concerns to that person

(20:23):
and to make sure that you're pointing out the concerns
about their behaviors and not about weight, because talking about
the person's weight can be really triggering. And then we
also know that people can have an eating disorder in
any sized body. They don't have to be sticked in
in order to struggle. So saying I love you, I
care about you, I've noticed that when we go out

(20:43):
to eat, you're ordering in a very disordered way, or
you're not wanting to go out to eat with me
as much as you used to, or you're constantly talking
about super foods. You know, And I wonder, you know,
because I am so worried about you, would you be
open to get in consultation with the therapist and then
if it's not a problem, it's not a problem, but
I would really urge you to get some professional help

(21:05):
just to again see if there's something going on. To
kind of get an assessment, and I would also add
to be really careful not to make comments on that
person's body, and to also educate yourself and to educate
the person as much as possible, so you know, maybe
sharing with them the link to our conversation or other

(21:25):
books or podcasts talking about eating disordered behaviors as well.
One of the hardest parts for me was when I
noticed that my thoughts were all consuming and I went
to see a therapist who was not an eating disorder therapist.
She told me that I had anxiety, and that made
so much sense to me, because of course I had anxiety,
but because all I was eating healthy, I couldn't understand

(21:47):
that I had a problem with food. And I almost
wish that that therapists had said to me, you have
anxiety because of your relationship to food, not you have
anxiety period, because we danced around it. I danced around
it for a long time and I was looking for
professional help, for someone to tell me something was wrong,
and she didn't. Yeah, And I think that's why, Like

(22:10):
another caveat of that would be to ask when they
do seek professional hope that they seek help from eating
disorder specialists, not just somebody because I don't know if
you guys are familiar with psychology today to find a therapist.
But nowadays therapists can check a box and say they
specialize in something on psychology today, so some have like
thirty specialties listed, and you want to actually, like I

(22:32):
encourage people to interview the therapists on the phone and
say what percentage of your caseload was people with eating disorders,
like what is your experience to really get an understanding,
because unfortunately a lot of therapists say they do everything,
and I'm somebody who doesn't believe that you can effectively
have every specialization. You know, like, I know what areas
am great at, and I know what I don't know.
Would you say that orthorexia or disordered eating always comes

(22:54):
down to the desire to be thin, Definitely, I don't
think so. I think with orthorexia can have people who
want to lose weight as part of that illness, but
you also can have people who don't have body image issues,
where for instance, I've had clients in the past who've
lost family members to cancer, and so their fear around
food is that, you know, this idea of mortality and

(23:16):
if I eat in a certain way, then they believe
I can protect myself from that. Right, So I think
even though thinness can be the way that some of
the symptoms sometimes manifest, but then even disorder usually there's
a lot of underlying core issues, which can include past trauma,
low self horrors, perfectionism, you know, anxiety, depression, a mood disorder.

(23:38):
So the way I describe it to clients as if
we think about an iceberg. Often the desire to be
thin is the top of the iceberg that's peaking out,
but underneath the surface is all of those other issues.
I'm just talking about the play into that. And how
do you ration though with somebody that says, my blah
blah blah died of cancer and so I need to
eat all these superfoods only and I can't have gluten

(23:59):
and a can of this again of that, because those
are all you know, because they read that they're inflammatory.
I'm not saying these is factual information for our listeners,
just things that I hear a lot as a dietitian, right,
And I think, I mean, I have so many arguments
around that I don't even know where to start. But
I think the main two that I would say, are
a like really looking at the conclusive research and be

(24:21):
I mean, we know a lot of research has tainted
or like facts on certain websites by guy culture. So
looking at the impact of having anxiety around food und
your health because that spikes corn solid can actually be
very unhealthy. And then to Harvard died a study for
a hundred years where they studied men and they looked

(24:41):
at mortality rates and they found that people with the
strongest social connections actually was the biggest predictor of longevity.
And people who are obsessed with quote unquote health foods
often that impacts their social relationships because in our culture, right,
like we all want to go out and get ice
food with friends. So I would actually argue that isolating
sitting alone in your room eating your salad is far

(25:03):
more unhealthy than going out to eat in a relaxed
environment with friends. You know, we have real people sharing
their stories as part of this series and also in
that doing letters to themselves. And I think that a
lot of people with this in their past, if they
are writing back to the person they were, then so

(25:26):
many letters would include like I'm sorry that you missed
out on going to dinner with your friends. I'm sorry
that you would make up an excuse to skip the
party because you were scared of what food was going
to be served or if there was going to be cake.
I know that that's certainly the case for me. Like
I think back over the years of college to adulthood,
like pass that into my career where I legit skipped

(25:49):
out on social functions because I couldn't control the food,
and even if I was personally showing up to them, mentally,
I was checked out because let's say eight before I
got there to control the situation I was, my mind
was still running rampant around, Oh my god, I want
to eat this? Can I eat this? Can I eat this?
And then I eat it, and then I'd go into
the guilt cycle. So it's like you're just can't be
pleasant even if you're showing up. I love that you

(26:10):
touched on that, Jennifer, the study of the social aspect
and how that can be so good for us, and
probably the anxiety that I caused around. I mean, I'm
that person with the cancer thing too. Yes, I had
the healthy eating because I was trying to get pregnant,
but my mom also died of cancer in two thousand fourteen.
My dad is in remission right now, So I feel
like I also had that to latch onto to use

(26:33):
and as an excuse of why I was eating a
certain way. But again it created so much anxiety and
stress for me that stress caused more damage than than
the food, right, And I think that's so common in it. Again,
eating disorder into eating are super complex. I don't want
to say it boiled down to one thing. But when
we have the loss of a loved one, you know,

(26:54):
from an illness that feels incredibly out of control and
uncertain and scary. And if I'm sold this idea and
this lie to diet cultures that these huge will protect me,
it makes perfect sense why I would latch onto that
as the means of control. But again we know it
just serves to create more problems, and that you know,
no matter how much kale we'll eat, we're all gonna

(27:16):
at the end of the day, we're all not going
to live forever. So I think diet culture really praised
on all of our fears about mortality and again latching
onto something to try to control after going through situations
that feel very scary and out of control. But the
problem is the more we buy into the behaviors, the
more we're controlled side them. Yeah, and diet culture latches

(27:37):
onto this. Whatever we've been told is what our bodies
are supposed to look like. Any generationally it changes, but
there's like, okay, we're told from magazine covers to all
kinds of things, to celebrities. They feel this certain pressure
to look a certain way, and then that's what we
see and I feel like then we're all struggling and

(28:01):
it's like a rat race trying to what can we
do and trying to keep up and figure out how
how is our body is supposed to look like that?
Or how do we get our body that way? But
why has that been decided? Like who decided that's how
bodies look? Our bodies should look how we were born
to look, and we're all different shapes and sizes and
we're all beautiful. Like that's just so I'm sure it's

(28:23):
frustrating for you of people that come in and are
talking to you about. Is that a topic that comes
up of like the standards that we have to live
up too and what's out there and what's your response
to that? It comes up all the time with clients
and I think it's far worse now because of Instagram
and face too than all these options that are out there.

(28:44):
But I think at the end of the day, we
all want to be loved and we all want to
be accepted, and I think that diet culture is I
think now it's that the sev dollar industry, and they
wouldn't make any money if we all woke up and
said I like myself, I love myself, right, So we
have these big companies that prey on our insecurities in
order to sell products because that's how they make their money.

(29:07):
And then I also think there's a big element of
patriarchy and all of this, because if women are sitting
around counting calories trying to shrink our bodies, then we're
not enacting world change that we could be enacting. Like
I feel like that could be an entirely separate episode,
so I don't even want to dive into that too far. Well,
so you mentioned waking up and loving your body. Let's

(29:28):
talk about self talk and negative self talk in particular,
and I feel we'll just use since you brought up
social media and Instagram, like it gets hard, like you
can be scrolling through and like see a picture of
someone and then just be like, oh wow, dang, look
at them, like why am I so fat? Or however
you whatever that negative thought is that instantly comes in
because you saw something, or you walk by and you

(29:50):
look in the mirror and you just instantly say something
negative about yourself. How are you seeing? How we talk
to ourselves affect people. I mean a singer, internal dialogue
can be so power full and often it's super negative
and critical in a way that we wouldn't talk to
other people that we care about. And so I start
by having people be mindful of their thoughts, because I
think we go about our day and we have something

(30:12):
like seventy thousand thoughts today and many of them are
similar thoughts that we've had before. They're on loop, and
so I think the first step is just being mindful
and aware of what we're telling ourselves and that we're
not our thoughts right, those are stories that our mind
makes up. And then the second step is thinking rather
than asking yourself is that thought true or not? I
have clients asked is this thought helpful in terms of

(30:34):
getting me in the direction of a full and meaningful life?
And if the answer is it's not, helpful. What I
like to have people do is practice either coming up
with a mantra positive self statement that they say back
to themselves repeatedly, or really practicing that like self compassionate voice,
So thinking about what you would tell a child, your

(30:55):
best friend, somebody that you loved she said that statement.
And then more you practice the positive self talk, the
more automatic and naturalist you to come over time. Thank
you for that, Jennifer. We really appreciate you coming on. Actually,
the next couple of stories that we're going to share
in this episode are girls that got vulnerable and negative

(31:16):
self talk plays a role in in their story, So
I think we'll dive into their stories. But appreciate you
coming on so much. And if people want to follow
you on Instagram, you are at Jennifer Underscore. Rowlin and
I have started following you, I don't know, in the
last month or two, and I just want to tell
you I've so enjoyed your posts. They've been a huge

(31:36):
encouragement to me, and I know that they will be
to a lot of other people if they aren't already
following you. And I'm just pulling up one that you
put up. Actually it's like three days ago when we're
recording this, but this is gonna air in April. But
you put your mom had slim vest, you have keto.
Your daughter deserves freedom, ditch the diet life. And as

(31:59):
a mom of a twelve year old girl who all
I want her to know is that she is beautiful
no matter what, like yes, I want her to have
that freedom. And thankfully she is showing no signs of anything.
But I just have to pray that that continues. But
I liked that post because yeah, every generation is going

(32:20):
to have their thing. But I think if we continue
this fight and you keep doing what you're doing, Jennifer,
because it's important work, our daughters can have freedom. Absolutely. Well,
thank you so much for having me on in for
spotlighting this issue because I think it's so important. Thank you, Thanks, Jennifer.
So we've got Katherine de Fata in the studio with us,
so you're a guest. It's actually here in person. A

(32:42):
lot of our interviews have been over the phone just
because of where people are in the country, but you're
right here in Nashville with us, which is super cool,
and your therapist here in town. But you specialize in
eating disorders, and so I talked about it on the
podcast and you listen to Four Things with Amy Brown,
and you sent me a note and said that if
you could be a part of it, just like you know,

(33:03):
and we started emailing back and forth, and I was like, yes,
can you come to the studio and and let's record
some stuff. So just before we hit record, we were
having an off air conversation about eating disorder being an
addiction and when I'm trying to talk to my husband
about it, or when I was eating a lot and
I just felt like I couldn't stop, and he didn't understand.

(33:24):
I would say, and I don't know if I was
right and how I was saying it at all, but
to me it felt like I was like, I don't know,
it's like an alcoholic can't stop drinking. I was like,
but you can take alcohol out of your life and survive,
like with food. I can't eliminate food from my life
because you need food to survive. I just remember that
being like some language out thrown out. I'm sure I

(33:44):
heard it somewhere, but that's I mean, that's comparing alcoholism
is seen as as an addiction. So one of the
things that you asked me was what's difference between self
work and therapy with an actual therapist? And I thought
about it and actually, like I had a different answer,
and then I was like, that's not right. The difference
is the relationship, and the relationship between a therapist and

(34:07):
a client is like the number one predictor of if
it's going to be successful. Like if you hate your therapist,
you probably won't get a lot done. So that goes
into just attachment theory and what that means, and do
you guys know what that is. Attachment theory comes from
this guy. His name is John Bowlby, and he was
doing research in orphanages and he was noticing that, like

(34:27):
these babies that were getting everything that they needed like shelter, food, water,
they were dying where they were getting really really sick.
But there's no reason for it except they weren't being touched.
So there's no touch at all, which is crazy. And
what he came up was that a relationship is necessary
to survive. He did a lot of research, and there's
a lot of stuff that I won't go into because

(34:48):
it might be a little bit boring, but he came
up with these three attachment styles secure, anxious, avoidant, and
we get those attachment styles based on the relationships we
usually have with our prime very caregiver. So if I
have a really great, loving environment and all my needs
are met all the time, I'm going to have a
secure attachment. But and that's the majority of people. But
also I see it on a spectrum to the majority

(35:10):
of people do have a relationship. Yeah, that's what they
say in the research, but I'm doing air quotes and
they can't see that's what they say. However, I think
really people are on a spectrum with this, so and
then anxious attachment would be when sometimes their needs are
being met, sometimes they're not, and so you don't know
whether to trust or not to trust. And then avoidant

(35:32):
is when your needs aren't really being met. And so
you kind of developed this idea of like I gotta
go do everything on my own, Like I gotta go
figure everything on on my own. Okay, I'm gonna interject
just a second, because I do have two adopted children
from Haiti, and some people may know that, some people
may not depending on what they've listened to. And I
had not heard and described as attachment theory. But I

(35:52):
know that my kids and I've witnessed it. They have
attachment disorder, yes, okay, and the lack of stimulation that
my son had. I now see how it comes out
in certain times, like how he responds and reacts, and
then even my daughter, this is just is this even
the same thing? Okay? So I'm just making sure on
the same page because I also want to be aware of,

(36:13):
like now that i'm their primary caregiver, that I'm focused
on whatever they're going to need from me. But there's
already walls built, there's already My daughter came here at ten,
she's twelve now, but day one from her arrival was resistance.
I can handle this on my own. I don't need you.
She would basically give us the heisman anytime. I mean,

(36:36):
it's been two years of breaking it down and we're
finally getting there, but they're still testing, like I don't
really trust you. Are you going to really love me?
What about if I do this, You're still gonna love me?
What if I Okay, I'm gonna try this out. And
so my husband and I just have to remain consistent
and so yes, at first, when you talked about attachment theory,

(36:58):
was like, no, I don't know what you're talking about,
but they're like, way does I get I do know this,
but I'm also trying to think of my childhood and
how it was with my So think about this. You've
talked about your own like issues with food and disordered eating,
all that I have that to think about as I
explain this kind of where your story pops up. Also,
this is going to be helpful because you're probably doing

(37:20):
the things you need to do with your children without
even knowing that you're doing them, just because you're a
good caring person. So you can develop a certain attachment style.
Good news is it's not static. It's fluid. So going
back to just describing this and how it relates to
what we were talking about in the beginning, is people
develop these attachments and they're all based on feeling like loved,

(37:41):
like you belong And so I have developed my own
theory that we all are born with these two desires
to be ourselves and then to have love and belonging,
and throughout our lives, the desire for love and belonging
becomes very very, very very strong, and so we drop
parts of ourselves or pick parts of ourselves, or pick
things up that aren't really parts of ourselves to get

(38:01):
that love and belonging. And so that's when the addiction
comes in. I'll use an example from my life to
explain this. So I never felt like I like really
really really fit into or had like a thing, or
we're special in certain parts of my friend groups, in
certain areas in my family, and so I started to

(38:22):
do things to get me attention. I attributed that attention
to love, right. I always say like any attention is
good attention. So, going back to what you said, what's
the difference between therapy and self work is a therapist
is what we call a secure base, which helps somebody
develop a secure attachment style. So somebody's going to come
into my office, probably not knowing that they have any

(38:44):
of this or any kind of drama. I'm going to
be that person like you're explaining with your daughter, what
if I do this, you still love me? What if
I yell at you? Can I still come back? What
if I miss a session? What if I tell you
that you're wrong? What if I disagree with you? Um?
What if I act out? What if I relapse in
what you told me not to do? Are you still
going to let me come back in? And the answer

(39:05):
is always yes, yes, yes, with safe boundaries, and it
helps them learn that like, hey, I don't have to
be a certain way. I can show up as I
am and like I can find love. So when you
say you were doing things to get attention, what were
those things? So it depends on which part of my life, Well,
let's go ahead and talk about the eaty. So in college, Yeah,
it's easy for me to talk about this. Now, I

(39:26):
didn't know that this was happening, no clue, which most
people don't. But I started with a diet, counting calories.
And again in my family, all my siblings went and
played dan one sports and I just went to college.
And so I felt like I was missing something because
don't have anything that my parents would really brag that
much about. No fault to them, My parents are great.

(39:46):
And so I went on this diet, started losing all
this weight. I was getting tons of attention, like tons,
you look so good, this this whatever. Guys like started
talking to me more. And so I attribute that to
that of like now if it and now I belong
belonging as love, I'm good. And then I became a
shell of a human tap into that a little bit more,

(40:06):
what were you feeling at that time? Like what I mean, first,
you're on the high. What does it mean to be
a shell because you're certainly not a shell today with
vibrants and your radiant. Yeah, So just so that people,
because really we're doing this so people don't feel alone,
and I feel like with each person that's sharing part
of their real story, which you just did, somebody's relating

(40:28):
and they're like, wait, tell me more. I would say.
People would always describe me as like loud and bubbly
and like fun. I'm a seven on the Instagram so
that which I didn't know what the Instagram was back then.
So that's what I always was. So when I started
restricting my food, I ended up restricting every single part
of my life because I couldn't go to that party

(40:48):
because what if I drank alcohol and there's scalaris and alcohol,
and then what if I got drunk and then I
wanted to eat something that I ate something I shouldn't
eat that crippled me. Or I can't go to that
that restaurant because I can't eat anything there. Then people
are gonna ask me like why aren't you eating? And
I don't have to come up with some excuse, or
I can't go to that thing at night because I
have to get up and work out at six am,
and I need my energy. And so I started cutting

(41:12):
things out of my life. I remember the start of
my junior year of college. That summer junior to senior year,
I like never left my parents house when I came home,
and I never saw any of my friends from high school,
which we were always very close. I remember I did
one thing. I went to my best friend from high
school's birthday party and then started at her house and
they all went out. I think it might have been

(41:33):
her twenty first birthday, and I went home after her
house that everybody else went out, and I went home
because I was like, I can't do that. So the
thing that got me all this attention all of a sudden,
then I was like, what's the point of the attention,
because I'm not letting myself engage with anybody. And then
I came back that next year, my senior year, and
I didn't do anything. I didn't I was in a stority.
I like would skip some of our date parties or

(41:55):
I would go I remember one time I also was
really into school. I like I went to a party.
It was a swaps which one that you would like
dress up like and where a costume And I like
loved doing that and I like took my note cards
to the bar and like study for my test. You
just like withdrew and interest in all the things that
you love to do. My friends did not love that.

(42:15):
So that's a part where that's just part of your
story of what you did to get attention to feel belonging.
But then you realize, like it's kind of like it
goes up up up, and it's like this is where
I'm getting belonging love. And then all of a sudden,
you just it's like we just I think it happened
all of us, and you crash and burn because you
realize you have nothing around you and what is this for?
So then what do you do? Well? And I love

(42:36):
looking back at this because I don't know y'all's experiences,
but from my experience, I had no clue that I
was struggling, So like not a clue. I thought I
was like on top of the world, like this actually
makes you want to cry. But my senior year, I
thought that I was killing it, like I had gotten
into all these graduate programs. I was like, gonna go
do all these things, and looking back, like another thing

(43:00):
I did that I have so much grief over it
is I skipped my last date party ever to come
back to Nashville and run the half marathon. I can
run that marathon whenever I want. I can never go
back and have my last party with my best friends.
I did not know that. I still was like, yeah,
I'd rather go run this marathon. This is my lifestyle.
I'm healthy, I don't like to drink. Almost like this

(43:20):
grandiose sense of self healthy sell us and I probably
I was a brat, yes, like because yeah, because I
wouldn't judge what people are eating. You're going to eat that,
And I'm like, in my head, I wish I could
eat that, Like I wish I could eat that, but
I have eating distort. As we talk a lot about

(43:42):
how you have so much control, I had no control,
right well, it was like not like I could eat that, Like, wow,
look at me, I have so much willpower for not eating.
But I don't really think I did have willpower. Because
I had willpower, I would eat a doughnut. But that's
what people would say to me. I like I wish
I could be like Catherine, and like, you don't want
to be like me. I know, because they don't really
know the struggle. That's why it's important, and we'll reiterate

(44:03):
it now since it's kind of coming up. That's why
it's important. You never know what's going on inside someone's body.
You might think it's all they've got it all figured
out and their life is together, and then you can
reinforce their behavior by complimenting something about their body, and
then that keeps them on that hamster wheel and really,
you have no idea you contributed to the problem just
by giving a compliment. We've been trying to just get

(44:25):
it into people and even myself over and over, to
stop complimenting on people's bodies. There's so many other things
that we could probably compliment that like, that's not necessary.
Kind of tell story. So this is why I started
to look at before I really got into being like
a seating disorder therapist. This is like, I have a
shame about this now, but again I'm trying to not

(44:46):
have that. I went to grad school, I went to
Vanderbilt in Nashville, and thinking I was going to be
eating disorder therapists, and guess what I wanted to specialize in.
I wanted to work with specifically binge eating disorder and
help them lose weight, which is not how you do
That's not okay. I could understand, not understand, not understanding. Yes,
now I'm like, oh my gosh, Maybe explain why though
that that wouldn't don't hand Yeah, because I know more

(45:09):
of that because I've been doing I've been working alongside people,
like he said, where y'all understand why that would be bad,
but someone else might not get why. That's probably not
like the best thing. So it's not about the weight.
And so with binge eating disorder, there's something else going on,
and if I help them lose weight, their issues aren't
going away, like the reason that they're binging, which would

(45:31):
be the reason why any of us do behavior that
we would classify as an addiction. It's not about the alcohol,
it's not about the food, it's not about any of that.
It's about what's underneath of it. And so yeah, it
might be a side effect that if these people do
the work and I help them through whatever it is
that they're trying to work through, they might lose weight.
But that's not the goal because if I just take

(45:52):
the weight away, everything else still and most people that
are in it don't see it as a underlying problem,
like they see it as either a binge problem I
can't stop when I eat, or they see it as
a weight problem I'm overweight because I eat. Not going
any deeper into why do you think that there's anything
to the binging and it being like in the brain.

(46:15):
We've touched on brain over binge, but there's there's obviously
with what you're saying with the addiction at all coming
back to attachment and love, right, so it's like all
goes back to some of that in a way. But
for me, I mean, I know that I had issues
with my dad leaving when I was younger, um, but
I know that I also was introduced to dieting at
an extremely young age. And I know when I started

(46:38):
dieting and then that led to restriction and binging. But
I didn't really realize I was binging at the time
because I didn't know really I was in high school.
But then I knew I would over eat so that
I would perche but it wasn't all of the time,
but I knew that it was wrong even so that
I went to my mom and said, I need help.
I'm throwing up and I don't know where this came

(46:58):
from or why, but I I need help with this.
So then she got me into therapy, and then that
led to therapy all through high school and college. But
it was always just focused on my dad having left.
Nothing ever resonated with me. And then I quit throwing
up for years. But what I realized in there is

(47:18):
I was still binging the whole time. But again I
knew that it was not right because I was like
I just went to literally like four different fast food
restaurants in like one stop, Like that's not normal. So
or if I was on a road trip somewhere, I
would stop at like multiple gas stations and like just
eat the entire two hours. That was my drive from

(47:39):
Austin to College Station, which is where I went to
Texas a m. So I remember a lot of those
road trips. Was I ate the entire time, whether it
was a gas station sonic, Like, I had different stops
and I would go through and be like okay, and
then next day I would just do slim fast or something.
But it never I was still in therapy at that point,
but it never was getting anywhere other than somehow I

(48:00):
just stopped the throwing up and it was gone, but
I kept the binging. And then when I read brain
over Binge, I've been telling Lisa like, it just made
sense to me. She talks about rewiring your brain and
that you just go to a binge and you have
to start denying the binges because I started restricting at
such a young age to train my brain that I

(48:22):
didn't know when I was going to get food again,
so it kept forcing me to over eat and then
I would binge. And so I started implementing that over
a year ago and that worked for me, and that
was the first thing where it really made Since now
I'm sure there's underlying issues with what's going on, but
I do want to talk to you about how that
worked for me. But about five years ago, when my

(48:43):
mom died, even though I had not purged in twelve years,
I had binge but not purged. The day after my
mom died, I ate dinner and then I had to
go throw it up, and I literally and it was
not an easy thing. It was my sister's birthday the
day after my mom died, and her in laws decided
to get a food truck and we have I mean otherwise,

(49:04):
I mean there's food at the house everywhere, but we
just were not eating. But then it was like my
sister's birthday, so I felt like I had to eat
from the food truck and I had to eat the cake.
So I ate it, and then something about me literally
and there were so many people at my sister's house.
I went over to a neighbor's guest house and I
threw up in their bathroom. Like it wasn't easy for
me to like make this happen. That somehow I was

(49:24):
desperate to get that food out of my body and
I hadn't even over eaten. But and that started it again.
Just like that, it was back, and I probably it
was a daily thing. Then it was like every other day,
and then it was like and now sound now that
you know you brought up that it's eating disorders can
be addictions. It sounds like an alcoholic returning to alcohol. Yes,

(49:47):
where all of a sudden you need that whatever and
you go and find it and then okay, I'll just
do it this one time, and then you slowly kind
of trickle back into the same thing. Okay, But I
don't even know that. I was like, I felt like
it was an out of body experience what I was doing.
I don't think I had the rational rational to be like, Okay,
it's just gonna be this one time. I was just
like I did it, and then I was like, what
was that? And I was so freaked out by it

(50:08):
that just like I went to my mom in high school,
I went to my husband almost immediately, and I'm like,
here's the deal. You've been married to me and if
I haven't thrown up our entire marriage, so you don't
know this side of me. But now I'm terrified and
it's here and I feel like an alcoholic that has
just lost their chip. That's exactly what I said to him,
and he was like, Okay, well we can do this,

(50:30):
like whatever you need. And I would say there's a
lot of times where after I mean, he would come
home and he'd be like, how is your day? And
I would be like, even a year after my mom
died or two years, where would still be discussions how
is your day? That's say, my day was fine except
where I threw up, you know, and I would be able.
I'm thankful for a relationship where I could be honest
with him about that, but I still was so perplexed

(50:51):
why it was happening. And now I've been over a
year without anything binges or purges, so I feel that.
But I have to share with you a revelation I
had with Lisa, but I don't even know if it
makes sense. And since you're a therapist, I'm gonna take advantage.
I need to pay you for the hour I told Lisa,

(51:11):
I said it, just did it. I went to therapy. Obviously.
I did M d R after my mom died because
it's very traumatic for me. She did not die. It
was not easy. She had cancer. I saw a lot
that I shouldn't see and laid with her in her
final breath, me and my sister both and then it
is healthy or not. We probably laid with her for

(51:31):
about an hour. After that, the corner of people were like,
we're here and to load her up, and we're like,
we're not done yet. So you know, whatever that looks
like for you, that's what we needed. But we definitely,
my s I both saw a lot and it was traumatic.
And then you know, here I am the next day
throwing up the food and I'm not knowing why And

(51:53):
I'm telling this to my therapist and she's like, well,
that's trauma, and the last trauma you had in your
life was when you're dad left, and that was when
you're younger, eating disorder kind of started. I'm like, well,
not exactly, but I just couldn't wrap my head around
the fact that like that would just make me do it.
But then I had this thought because I think something

(52:14):
Lisa talked about or somebody talked about that like I
really felt because I was grieving, and this also could
be related to attention since you said then. And this
is just me having to get completely honest and almost
like embarrassed that, like what, because it's not like it
was a very conscious thought out decision like oh I
need attention, so this is what I'm gonna do. This

(52:34):
is almost like five years later and just having to
look back and be like, oh, yuck, was that really
what this was? Because what makes sense to me now
is that I felt like I was grieving, and if
you're grieving, you're supposed to lose weight. If you're grieving,
you're not supposed to have food because you're sad, and

(52:55):
sad people don't eat, and sad people get skinny, and
if I get skinny, I get attention, which is exactly
what happened. I mean, there was not a single person
in my life that did not comment on my body.
Like about a month after my mom died, because I
did get very thin, and I would weigh myself every
single day. I would drink juice in the morning, urge whatever.

(53:15):
I would do yoga twice a day. Also, I was
trying to keep busy to not think about my mom.
I would do wine and xan X for bed, so
would knock me out and I wouldn't think about food
and I but nobody knew this was happening to me.
But I would still come to work the next day
and someone from would be visiting from you know, another
city that hadn't seen me in awhile and be like,
oh my gosh, Amy, it looks so good. And then

(53:35):
I'd be like thank you. And then but I'd be like, yes,
I'm grieving. I'm doing a good job grieving. I'm doing
a good job grieving because I lost my mom and
I needed to recognize that I'm sad. My skinny represents
my sadness and that gives me attention. Yeah, it sounds
very twisted and messed up to say out loud, I
underveel that makes more sense to me than when the

(53:58):
therapist told me she thought like a all my capsule
open to my head. And because that's how I dealt
with my dad leaving, that's immediately the route my my
brain was going to go to deal with losing my mom.
And I just don't know that that makes sense to me.
Thank you for share that. I think your therapist could
be right there. Part of it could be this is
the thing with therapy, and like me, there's no just

(54:20):
like one way. So that's why I mean eating disorders
and addiction in general is hard because I can't just
say it's every time because of this. A lot of
times it's because of this. There could have been the
trauma part, but I think what you're talking about it's
probably attached to your trauma of not getting the attention
to the love and the belonging from your dad. And

(54:40):
then now this is like your mom, Like you're a
secure base, right, your person, and then she's gone, and
then like who's my person? And who's gonna recognize or
who's gonna know what I need? Or who's gonna all
of that comes up of like you lost your secure base,
so what do I do? You're sad? Right? Part of
it is I hear you saying like I want people

(55:00):
to see my sadness. I think part of it also
is like I don't want to feel sad either, and
so what can I do to shove down all these feelings?
Because it feels good when I'm doing this. It's twisted
as it is, like it feels good to perch, it
feels good to go on a run for two hours,
it feels for a period of time it feels it

(55:23):
doesn't yeah, yeah, until it doesn't. And at the beginning, yes,
it was like this high and this ride, and until
it got messy and it was just exhausting and it
was like I can't keep up or if I would
try to throw up and it didn't work, and I
was like, oh my gosh, I just ate all that food,
like and it's not coming up like it was. Just
tell me about like the embarrassment of like this is

(55:45):
so messed up. I feel embarrassed that this is what
I did. I think because I could be wrong in this,
but if we're for the sake of our conversation of
viewing eating disorder as an addiction and alcoholism addiction. I
feel like, for lack of a better word, being addicted
to cocaine or alcohol is a little more sexy. I
don't know it's the right word. First sake of this,

(56:07):
I'm just gonna say, binging a bunch of food and
then throwing it up for whatever the reason is is
disgusting to me. I'm never I don't look at and
it could just be me thinking that about myself. I'm
not saying that about anybody else and saying it literally
about myself. I'm sure there's shame associated with anything that
you're addicted to, but I feel like, gosh, if I

(56:28):
was addicted to cocaine, nobody would be like, oh, you're disgusting.
They'd be like, oh wow, she that's crazy. She needs
to get some help. But I'm like, if they knew
what I was addicted to and that I was doing this,
they'd be like, she's so disgusting. So that's my own
thought processes. It's not as you putting it out here
right now. On this is breaking down that factor of shame.

(56:48):
And I think like even on Instagram, like anxiety became
so popular to talk about, but like depression was in
the cloud of like this shift thing you can't talk about.
And I recently talked about some that I never said either,
which was laxative abuse, and flooded with messages, not comments
on my private on my public Instagram page, private messages

(57:10):
of me too. So there is something super secretive still
about the purging, whether it is up or down, that
people are still not acknowledging. But you right here saying
it is showing that there is no disgust to it.
There is no shame, especially you as Amy back right,
because I wouldn't want anybody else sharing too. I would

(57:32):
say that same thing to them. We're breaking it down.
We're just broke it down for so many people. I'm
becoming more vocal about my story. I think that on
the radio years ago it maybe come up that I
had dealt with a needing disorder in high school and college.
It was kind of like I could relate on that level.
Never would talk about the issues with food or binging

(57:53):
or obsession food obsession for all these years. That just
doesn't come up organically. Then and after the stuff with
my mom, Oh my gosh, I kept I mean, I
told my husband about it, but I was very private
about it, like very until now recently, I feel like
I'm in a better place and I don't want people

(58:15):
to feel alone, and I need to start sharing that
part of my story. So a lot of things I
haven't said out loud yet, like what I just shared,
I haven't fully said out loud in the whole, in
its entirety, and so and I don't even I'm still
probably not all giving it all. I feel good. I mean,

(58:35):
I feel like I've been like there's a couple of
times where I'm like, okay, smiling inside because it does
feel good. There's a little bit of a high from it.
But also I was at a low where I was
taken back to it and I was very sad for
myself and I was about to cry but trying to
keep it together for the sake of the being one
of the hosts here. But in crying is okay. I
have no issue crying on air, done that plenty of times.

(58:58):
So I'm sad for that that part of me. I
want to tell you a story, Okay, one I have
to say this because this is huge. This is a
side note, But when people talk about this stuff, I mean,
what you were saying, it is huge because yeah, people
will talk about in rexia and restricting and my exercise addiction.
They won't talk about the other stuff, and it's not
any better at all. And what you're talking about is shame.

(59:21):
I feel ashamed for what I did, And what shame
feeds off of is your silence and secrets. And so
when we talk about it more, this shame kind of
gets you starved. The shame so the shame dies. And
so that's a big deal because I'm sure there's one million,
jillion trillion people that are going to hear that and
be like, oh my gosh, I felt that way too.

(59:41):
Is it okay for me to talk about this? I
think I'm gonna try it. The other part is this
is the story I was gonna tell fifteen minutes ago,
but I'm glad I'm telling it now because there's this
doctor his name is Dr Gabor Mate, and he does
a lot of research and stuff around addiction. He was
working with heroin addicts and he was trying to figure
out he's working in a center where harm reduction. So

(01:00:04):
it's like, we're not gonna You're not gonna get sober,
We're gonna teacher how to responsibly use. But he was
going around and interviewing these men and women are like,
why do you why do you use heroin? We know
that's bad, we know that can kill you. And he
went to this one guy and he described him the
way I remember him describing him as this, like almost
like he would look like a big bouncer at like

(01:00:24):
a club with like bald head, big guy tattoos, like tough.
And he said, can you tell me what heroin does
for you? Like why do you use it? And he said,
I don't really know how to describe it, but have
you ever been sick and your mom puts you on
her lap and she wraps you up in a blanket
and she starts feeding you chicken noodle soup. He was like,

(01:00:45):
that's what heroin feels like. So this guy concluded, oh, love,
Like that's what heroin feels like. Love. It feels like
a warm pug. And so I tell that story because
like there is so much shame and like why do
I do these things that are so bad? And I'm like,
what's wrong with me? Is what I hear all the time,
like Kavin, what is wrong with me? And I'm like
nothing's wrong with you. There's actually something right with you,

(01:01:08):
Like Amy, there is something right with you. The fact
that you're like, there's something wrong with me. I want
to feel better. I need to go do this thing
that I know that used to help me feel better.
That means that there's something right with you that you
are trying to find. Like we all need attention, we
all need love, we all need belonging. We are born
attached to our mothers like we need attachment. We're born
that way. And so I just say that because I

(01:01:30):
think a lot of people think to themselves, like what
is wrong with me? Like why can't I stop? It's like,
because you're a healthy human that wants to get better,
and thank God that you did that, rather than like
just being like take me away life, Like when you
turn to your husband too, which is like telling I think,
I mean I'm not. That's your secure attachment, now, can
you take you with? And it can't be any it

(01:01:52):
can be anybody. That's your secure attachment. It's like help me, Well,
thank you for letting me talk through that. That's actually
we just made a lot of clarity that we needed. Yeah,
I didn't know where where we would go with that
for sure, But I think that this is how do
you feel at lia to do you have anything you
want to add from your think that the audience will

(01:02:14):
feel like I did, where we might not have your
exact story, or maybe you do. There's plenty of people
who have purged for that exact reason. But I feel
like I've made headway in my understanding of myself far
beyond my even years and therapy, just by understanding the
importance of secure attachment and personally not having that growing
up either despite what it looked like. UM and how

(01:02:36):
we go about seeking attention because we're scared not we
don't feel safe, and there's a million ways to do that,
but for a large majority of us, with the addition
of the emphasis on thin equals loved equals health equals applause,
it's an easy one kind of right next to it.

(01:02:56):
So what do you do with your clients? What is
something you can can leaves like is there like an
activity or like affirmations or something you encourage them to
do that those that are listening, that might be some
of the stuff we've talked about today's resonating with them, Like,
is there like some stuff they can like a piece
of homework or something my gut says, if this is

(01:03:19):
really resonating with somebody, I want them to reach out
and go to therapy. That could be great advice. That
might be because some people see that there's shame and
therapy and we should make sure that we're here to
say that there's not there's nothing wrong with that at
all whatsoever. And something that you say on your Instagram
all the time that I am not a therapist, but
I've been in therapy my whole life is there doesn't

(01:03:39):
have to be something wrong with you to go to therapy.
So even if you don't identify with the purging or
even an eating disorder and you're just listening to this,
I mean I have found that my most profoundly huge
steps forward in therapy have been on days where I
didn't come discussing a trauma or anything relevant to my life.
Think it's just a tool to better get to know

(01:04:00):
your total being, and that is profoundly huge in how
it will affect everything in your life. What about a
piece of homework for people, um that you had said earlier,
is you know which so second nature for us to
comment on somebody's body. What are some things that people
can maybe for the next week work on. I believe
in like human connection. I think the more we talk
to people and out loud, the more connected we feel.

(01:04:22):
Like being in an uber even and it's so easy
to just be on your phone the whole time, but
even interacting with an uber driver or taxi driver I
live in the city. What are ways that people can
complement people this week that are non appearance based? He
can we push them to talk to people and say
things that they What are some some things we can
say to start conversation with strangers or loved ones. You

(01:04:42):
know what? I want to come back? This actually comes
from your last week's episode. Um, what did Kelsey say
about if you think and it's nice, say it? Oh,
if it's kind, so it's kind say so. Just to
clarify since this is a completely this is a different
series but and it's airing in April, but I do
have I had an interview back in March with Kelsey
Ballerini on the Four Things podcasts. So you're referencing something

(01:05:04):
that's who said it? Just so that we were just
talking about empowering women and Kelsey was just saying, you know,
one thing I've learned is if it's kind, say it,
like who cares if you know the person or if
you don't know him. If it's kind, if you think it.
If you think it and it's kind, say it. That's
exactly what she says. So I would say that with
a caveat if it's about the shape of their body,
so because again, you never know if that is a

(01:05:26):
point of contention for somebody. But one of the things
that I've worked on because I actually am like a
introverted extrovert, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I
think I am too okay, So okay, we all are,
but like I sometimes don't I like go into a
place and I like think all these things about I
won't ever say anything because I just kind of keep

(01:05:47):
to myself and waite for somebody approach me. But I
think something that we can work on is like when
we see somebody and if we're just happy to see somebody,
say it's good to see you, like I've missed you
means a lot to me, or rather than being like,
oh my god, girl, you look so good, you look
so happy. I think that a lot of the time
when we do compliment somebody's weight or body change. It's

(01:06:07):
because we've become So that's this is an okay thing
to say to somebody that you might not even know.
And so you might actually be thinking, this person looks happy.
But it's a weird thing to say, hey girl, you
look happy. So let me say, did you lose weight?
Like I think that we actually are seeing again going
back to the radiance in people, but it might feel

(01:06:29):
strange to say you look radiant because it's not a
normal exchange, like you look good, right, so I think
diving into your psyche. Okay, maybe you think this person
looks good. That's the first thing. Why do they look good?
What are they giving their fitting the standards of what
society tells us looks good. Because if society didn't say that, like,

(01:06:49):
what would we think? Like I always say, we are
the decider of our own opinions, so we get to
actually decide that, like which a lot of people would
be like yeah, dub. But then I'm like, well, do
you think that because the person next to you thinks that?
Or do you think that because you really think that
about yourself or about other people? And I use the
example of if I pulled out a peanut butter sandwich
and started eating it and you're like you peanut butter,

(01:07:11):
but I'm like, I don't like it anymore either. It's
the same thing as like if somebody is like, I
don't like your shirt, like, well, I you're allowed still
like it. If somebody thinks that you look whatever, you
can still think you look good if society says that
you are not. But we need to stop questioning ourselves
based off of others opinions, whether it's as profound as

(01:07:32):
your body or insignificant as your shirt. Peanut Butter and
Peanut Butter, Catherine, thank you for coming to tell if
you think it. And it's kind to say it, which
comes from both doesn't come for me. I can't take
said it. But I don't know if she said it
she got it from somewhere or I always say make
it easy to be kind to yourself, so going along

(01:07:54):
with that, it's like make it easy to be kind
to other people too, Like all you have to do
is go up to somebody and say, hi, how are you,
and you can start a conversation that could make somebody's day,
exchanging a smile every now and then. People may not
remember what you say, but they remember how you make
them feel, and then good one okay, and then my
website is three Courts Therapy dot com. Too perfect. All right, well,

(01:08:14):
thank you so much for taking time to talk. Thank you.
It's fun.