January 18, 2024 • 38 mins
Amy was given a book about self-forgetfulness from her friend, Jeremiah Carter, so he is on with her to talk about the meaning of it. Whether we admit it or not, we all care to varying degrees what people think of us. The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness (by Timothy Keller) is a little gem of a book that will have you considering how busy most of us are measuring up all of our words, actions, and responses to both the standards of those around us and our own standards. It’s a short read with a powerful message. Amy and Jeremiah also talk about homemade sourdough bread (and Amy's favorite way to eat it), a movie recommendation, visualization/manifestation gratitude and more!
HOST: Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Cast up Little Food for yourself life.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh it's pretty bad. Hey, it's pretty beautiful. Thing beautiful.
That for a little more exciting, said he your kicking with
full thing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
With Amy Brown.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Happy Thursday, four Things Amy here, and my guest today
is a friend Jeremiah Carter.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's been on the podcast before.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I'm starting the conversation off with sour dough bread, which
we're going to talk about more than that. We're actually
going to talk about the freedom of self forgetfulness, which
I feel like a couple of months ago when you're
on the podcast, you brought this book up by Tim
Keller and you touched on it a little bit. But
since then, I read it a few times. It's a
(01:03):
very short book, very and I'll probably need to read
it like five hundred more times just to get it down.
I feel like that's the sentiment of others that have
read it. I know you gave it to our friend
Chase and he's already read it a couple times.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Evan, Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
So we'll get into how you came across this book,
why you like to gift it to people, and I'll
share an example of a time where I definitely made
something about me. That wasn't about me, not necessarily the
details of everything, But I just think that reading something
and really understanding it and then going through like a
(01:41):
life experience that where you could have implemented it but
you didn't, and then next day having that realization of like,
oh now I understand this better. So I think the
more you read it, the more you'll have those moments
where you look back on a conversation maybe you had
just had and you're like, oh, shoot, yeah, I could
have implemented this concept, which is nothing new.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It's from the Bible, so it's been.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Around a minute, Paul, shout out, But shuld have something
that's nothing new is sourdough bread.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Homemade bread.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
That's definitely been around for quite some time as well.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
But do we know when that began? We should fight it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I can look it up.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We could look it up.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well, you talk about getting homemade sourdough bread from the
local bakery.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Okay, yeah, so you wanted to bake your own bread.
And that came up for me because we were trying
to find someplace to eat while we were in between
schedule stuff. I don't even remember, but we went over
one place over near a place in Wedgwood, Houston and
Nashville called A Dozen Bakery, which I really like to
go to, but I usually like to go to just
(02:48):
after the last lunch hour rush. And they have really
good in house baked bread, not just sourdough bread, but
they have multiple versions of sourdough bread, they have other
bread and then they do very good sandwiches on their
own bread or breakfast sandwiches. They do their own in
house cookies, pastries, coffee, stuff like that. So it's a
typical bakery, but it's I would say one of the
(03:11):
better ones, and that they do everything as I understand
it in the house and it just tastes unbelievable. So
that day had just closed at two pm. The next day,
I wanted to go before church it was opening at
eight am, and by the time I got there was
a line out the door. And there's a good amount
of line space inside.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
In twenty degree weather.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, yeah, in twenty degree weather or colder. And I
don't ever remember seeing that before. Again, I'm more of
a mid day guy. But I think someone's discovered the
secret and post about it, shouted about it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, So if you come to Nashville, try to go
to a dozen bakery or this is just encouragement if
you don't want to bake your own, or you don't
have a starter, because I want to bake my own,
but I don't have a starter yet.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
But I'm going to get one and then try to
make my own.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
But in the meantime, we can support local bakeries in
our area, so wherever you live.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And that's just something that's not always top of mind
for me.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Like I go to the grocery store and I normally
just go to the freezer section and get my ezekiel bread,
which is great. But once I was craving the sourdough bread,
I thought, oh, well, one way to achieve that since
I'm not making my own yet, it's just to go
to a local bakeries such as doesn't.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
And may I recommend how you eat it.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
To slice the sour dough bread, put it in the toaster,
butter it add a little sea salt and then some
honey on top, and it's like amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, you're a big toast fan. You have lots of
versions of toast, but that's a really top choice. What
you just said.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
And you know, something that came up yesterday too. Around
the topic of food is sometimes how we can miss
out on things like that. I mean, there was definitely
a time in my life where there's no way I
would have eaten sour dough bread with butter and honey,
Like I'd just been like, sorry, it's not on my
list of things that I eat.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Sure, so lots of lists out there.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
I wouldn't have allowed myself to enjoy sourdough bread and
it's so it's so good.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I would be missing out on so much.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And so as I say that, I know it's the
start of the year and people start certain things in
the new year a lot of times, and you might
be thinking, oh, well, that would be great, but sourdough
bread's not on my list. And I'm not saying toss
out whatever you have going on for yourself that's going
to help you feel good. I don't know what that is,
but what came up, and it wasn't just about the bread.
(05:33):
It was food in general and breaking bread with people
and community and hanging out with family and friends. Of
sometimes how we are so focused on ourselves bringing in
the freedom of self forgetfulness that we prioritize that over
community and how that will fill up our cup more
(05:56):
or our body will figure out what to do with it,
and it will have the joy from those moments than
the anxiety we have or the sadness around having to
walk away from that. And then you know, having it
and being content with it and doesn't mean if you
have it you have to eat the whole loaf because
you're never going to have soured.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
O bread again. Like that, enjoy the moment with your people.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Sure, yeah, it doesn't have to be feast or famine.
I think, of course, as you've already noted, there are
a lot of avenues we could go down, but broadway,
the main drag is we're trying to speak about how
enriching the things around the actual meal are for the
meal itself, as far as it relates to your body.
I think that there are things that we can't even quantify,
(06:38):
but go look at the research. Research will show you that. Yeah,
people in a sense have much better levels in their
body of certain responses, you know, quartos, all responses, et cetera,
when they are able to just enjoy the people they're
with instead of trying to hyper control their whole environment.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, and then how that ties into its freedom, like
when you're not trying to hyper control in those moments.
It's not exactly what Paul is talking about, sure in
his letter to Corinthian, but it certainly ties in and
can definitely play a role when you are in a
(07:16):
way trying to minimize yourself. I think we spend a
lot of days making everything about ourselves, and I think
that's sort of the natural thing to do, Like why
not we can be wired that way. I know that
my brain I was constantly concerned. I've done a lot
of work on it, but overly concerned about what others
thought of me, and even crushed by it. If it
(07:38):
was that, I thought it was something negative. Even my
own opinion of myself carried too much weights for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I feel like that's where you kind of that's where
you lived, like your time, your energy, your thoughts. They
would not one percent, but they would more or less.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Live there majority of the time what other people thought
of me. Yes, and then myion of myself was not high,
So then that was just exhausting.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, it's exhausting, and that's pretty normal. I think you
have a very relatable experience. I think most people, if
they're honest with themselves would say they know exactly what
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah. I mean I think that whether we admit it
or not, we all care to varying degrees what people
think of us.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, and in some sense, you know, again, more avenues
to go down. But I think all good things take time.
Relationships are one of those things. Relationships shape us, They
in a lot of ways, make us. You do need
to pick good people to be around. And there are
people that constantly love to shout about as I think
they're going through growth and changes, maybe progression. They can
(08:43):
get to places where they say, I don't care what
anybody thinks about me, And in some sense I understand
where they're coming from. But I don't think that that's
necessarily fully honest one and two, I don't even think
that that's very healthy or good because at some level
you should care what some people think in your life,
and you've invited certain people into your life to care
to call you out to say, hey, behavior right now,
(09:06):
this kind of action not helpful, not healthy for you.
I want more for you than this, and that's a
good thing, and you should probably consider what they think about.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
You, right Yea, I think that it's too like for
me and just sharing my personal experience with some of
those thoughts, they would loop in my brain and I
was losing sleep over it, and ugh, it was just
certain things were devastating to me. Yeah, And in the book,
Tim talks about those types of things and we should
not be losing sleepover.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, do you have an example. Maybe that's I'm putting
you on the spot too much, but like, I think
that a lot of people have lost sleep over their
mind running around one scenario, one word of the day,
one interaction, that somebody said something to them that pricked
a little place in them and they don't even understand
what that place that was pricked is, but they're going
to go to trying to manage how they can change
(09:54):
what the person who pricked it was, you know what
I mean, what their opinion was, what their words were,
instead trying to deal with what actually got pricked.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, And that's what that's the indicator, that's your your
ego's coming out. And that's what he talks about in
the book, which Tim says Paul has reached a place
where his ego draws no more attention to itself than
any other part of his body and he uses an
example of your toe, and you know your ego, you
notice it when it's injured.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
It's funny. Even yesterday you were cooking something you cut
your finger, And what did Caitlyn say in the evening?
She was like, how nice is it for the other
three of us who don't have any cut fingers at
the moment, Like, you don't notice until boom, you've cut
your finger, and it drives you nuts when you wash
your face, when you brush your teeth, when you're trying
to bake cookies, when you're trying to et cetera.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Oh yeah, I was trying to button up my jeans
and I had to use my thumb, and I was like, well,
this is really difficult at the moment. Yeah, And then
Kaylen even went on to say, you know, like when
you have a sore throat, and so you're like, oh, gosh, man,
just the last few months I didn't have a sore
throat and I wasn't thankful.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, you have.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It stands out there.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So first Corinthians four to three is I care very
little if I am judged by you or by any
human court. Indeed, I do not even judge myself. And
the court is mentioned there because I think a lot
of times we take ourselves into the court room, either
we call the session with our people in our life
(11:22):
or we enter into it with someone else. And I
know I've certainly had examples of that. I mean, you
and I even have had an example of that where
I definitely took you to court once and then at
the moment I thought like it was totally valid and justified.
And then the next day, I think I woke up
(11:42):
and was like, shoot, I went to court and that
I didn't need to. That could be something that was released.
But I also am thankful for it because it showed
me another example of times where maybe down the line,
if I encounter something similar, I'll be reminded of this
learning lesson. And now, okay, check myself, because that was
(12:05):
my ego showing up.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I can obviously remember the specific example and we don't
need to get into it. But I think it's good
in a sense for you to share and be honest
about what you feel what you saw. But that's amazing
that you had that self reflection as well. I mean,
I think, again, all good things take time. Relationships matter,
and I think that what we're getting back to the
(12:28):
book is that kind of indications. You realize that the
ego exists. You're a human being, so the ego is there.
You realize that the ego exists, you're a human being,
(12:48):
So the ego is there. It's going to be there.
But what is the way that it is being given
life for? How is it managed? Because Paul will also say,
I mean you can go to places in ealations. I
guess it is. What is that maybe chapter six, verse seven,
y'all can go look that up until me if I'm right.
But he talks about taking pride in the way you operate,
and he's saying, but don't take pride in the way
(13:10):
you operate in the sense that you're comparing against somebody else.
And that's part of what and back to the point
this book, the freedom of self forgetfulness. It's part of
what's been so beautiful for me to be able to
share it with anybody who thinks the Bible is ridiculous,
who thinks that Christianity is ridiculous, God belief in God
is ridiculous or not. And I think Keller is, in
(13:30):
my opinion, one of the best of all time at
being able to make very simple practical wisdom, very palatable,
very absorbable for most anyone. And he's having to do
it out of New York, where you have intellectuals from
all over the world that think, in some sense they
are above and beyond or have moved forward from places
that other people are still stuck in. And this book
(13:52):
is again we're calling it a book, but it's a
forty page little tiny not pamphlet, but not book. So
it is just very concise, clear wisdom. And he's saying, look,
you're human, you're a human being, and you do have
an ego. It exists. There's a part of you that
wants to take pride in the way you live. Because
of that, you want to then measure everything where are
(14:13):
we there? Is it a low self esteem thing or
a high self esteem thing? Which is what I think
we talked about more in the last podcast when I
brought this up of which way should we go? You know,
in the in the past, counselors or therapists would talk
about how you know, there was there was too high
a self esteem of people and it was better to
have a low self esteem. And nowadays they're saying that
everybody has too low self esteem and you need to
(14:34):
have a way higher self esteem. And Paul's sitting there saying, no, neither,
why are you talking about your self esteem? In a sense,
I do think that there are a lot of people
out there that because they can get into this, you
know again, that pricked moment, they can capture a lot
of souls, capture a lot of attention by just bringing
in something that is spiritually new to someone and feels
(14:56):
right and good that they can understand, and they say, oh,
I want to die into X y Z. Three steps
to fulfillment, five steps to piece, seven steps to success.
And he's saying, that's just going into the courtroom again,
and does it last forever? Because then you're just measuring
everything and then it all is about you, And at
(15:16):
that point it becomes suffocating, it becomes painful, or it's
bloated to the point where it's just airspace. You're just empty,
there's an emptiness. He gives multiple very good, clear examples.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
But yeah, I think there's really helpful illustrations, real life examples.
And like you said, Tim Keller was amazing at this
Madonna that you know, non Christians could relate to, Like
I feel like anybody could read this and benefit from it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Although I do love a good seven Steps.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
To Peace, I'm not gonna lie like I don't. I
can read this over and over, but I like things
like that, and those are for me and my moments,
and I've certainly shared several things like that here on
the podcast with people. But I like having this as
a base and seeing it as something and explain to
(16:06):
me in a way that I have not ever received before.
And we'll spend continue to spend more time with it.
But I think that I know myself and I'll still
partake in some of the other stuff, but just with
a healthier base of the ego.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Thoughts on that, well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I guess I'll ask a question and say a thought
at the same time. One I'd love to hear more
of what you even mean by that. I'm sure the
listeners would too, of what exactly you mean by what
you've benefited from this and your understanding of the ego.
Maybe not to future cast too much, but one of
the things that I would like to talk about in
the future is this idea of understanding oneself and how
beneficial it is to understand the world, and part of
(16:47):
that being taught at a very very early age, through sports,
through team sports. There's so much to gain from that
and seeing outside yourself and looking in the same direction
with a group of people and seeing who they are
and where they excel and being able to surrender certain
things over to them, et cetera, et cetera. There's lots
of really good richness there. And we were speaking about
(17:09):
it in the sense of I guess, vision casting, manifesting
a vision board, trying to have a focus. At face value,
you could say, okay, well let's just define it. What
are you manifesting and where are you manifesting it from?
Those questions probably need to be answered. But on the
(17:29):
other side, you can simply say, like, yeah, okay, I
learned when I was in middle school or beforehand, like
to focus and envision making the shot before I make it, practicing, yeah,
practicing my free throws, practicing my form, repetition, hard work
in that place, surrender in that place, getting outside myself
(17:51):
in that place because I believe it'll help the team.
There's a lot there.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Or in a rush a driver, I don't know if
y'all see rush shout outsworth, Wow, what a pool?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, he does visualization in the visualizing the track and
how his car, how he's going to RaSE it, which.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Grants arisma as well. Now they have more technology and
people can practice on it.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Michael Jordan, you visualize like you're saying the basketball stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right any who, So I've made it longer than I'm
meant to already, but on the growth path in that process,
sometimes you kind of want to step back and ask
people like, is this your first time to think about
hard work and concentration? Like is that part of what
you're calling manifestation? Is this your first time to think
(18:40):
about that?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Sounds incredibly condescending, right it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Can, But in some sense you're trying to say, like, look,
it is a bit laughable when it said that way,
but it is. It is a point of difference in
one is saying that person who's focusing the way they
are and giving their time and attention is focusing on
the process, focusing on what's at hand in the driveway,
practicing their free throws. To continue with that example, and
(19:05):
oftentimes I think manifesting or trying to envision or future
cast is about a future outcome. It's always about the outcomes.
It's about the goals. It's where you want to end up,
and we miss so much when our focus is at
the end. It's at the finish line in some sense, right,
And so I think that to bring it back, or
try to bring it back. With Tim Keller in this book,
(19:27):
what he's trying to get people to see on a
number of levels is who are you right now? You know?
And what is it that you are operating in right now?
And why is that? If you're living in a way
that your identity and your worth, your value comes from
something out in the world, your ego is always going
to be pendulum swinging. You know, in some sense, you're
(19:48):
going to be pricked by a feeling like you're not enough,
pricked by feeling like you're better than everybody else, back
and forth. And he's like, well, what if it comes
from a place that's neither. There's nothing left to prove.
Everything is already solid, You are made on purpose, and
you get to actually be calm in that you don't
have to prove anything to anybody. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, no, I mean I've read the book.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I'm following with you, and I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I just also think you can still have a vision
board and want things for yourself in the future and
be very much in the present.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yes, but that takes work too, Kavit.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I'm not trying to hate my visual boards. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I have glue sticks downstairs if you want to make one.
Don't not get until you try to be a vision.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Board home in the last number of weeks, saysn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, well, people keep coming over to make their vision
board and then we end up just eating popcorn and talking.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So we haven't gotten around to it much this year.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
But which is that more valuable? The relationships eye contact,
face to face? Is that even more valuable for holding
you accountable for things you want to do and how
you want to walk walk in your life then putting
it on on corkboard.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think they're both good.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I'm not saying one's not valuable.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I remember last year having really good We're present
in the moment times around my kitchen table with girlfriends
making our vision boards, talking, laughing, cutting things out, and
I think it's all within reason and having a healthy
perspective and knowing that just because you cut something out
(21:20):
and pasted on this vision board does not mean that
that's what's in store for you, sure, But for me,
it's having my eyes on things I would like. May
it totally do a one to eighty from that?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Sure? And I have to be open to that.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And it's like a prayer of these are my heart's desires.
This is my heart's desire, this, this, this and this
and this, and I'm going to pray for it. And
then I will have to accept what God's will is
for my life and know that if that's not meant
to be my heart's desire, well hopefully correct course, I
may have to grieve certain things that I've been excited about,
(21:58):
but know that oh they're you know, there's something else.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I hear you and I feel you there. I think
what I'm trying to get towards is sort of what
we began with the sour dough bread again in some sense,
with a vision for something way down the road. Do
you ever feel like that sometimes you miss the day
to day?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Well, you know how much I say I'm being present,
I have to practice being present and that is something
that I think you have to be aware of for sure,
to be in the present.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I guess that's the second question. Then it might be
interesting to hear you speak on this, What do you
feel like was more valuable. Let's just take let's pretend
I don't know if you even did it sounds like
you did, but vision board twenty twenty two into twenty
twenty three, or however you'd say.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yes, it's in my closet half of it because my
dog ate some of it, and that to me was
a clear sign that, like what a dog ake and removed?
I was like, well, I guess God's just telling me
let it go.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
What do you remember most about that vision board? That
board and things you cut out, or the time that
you spent with the actual people that were there while
you were making you know.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
The two years before my vision board had a cat
on it, before I had a cat.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Why did you make that turn?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Because I know how much you love Maggie and I
manifested her.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Really, yeah, you meant what color was Maggie on your
vision board?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I don't remember. It's just cats.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I played a cat, made one and she put a cat,
and then we got our cat. Okay, you know, but
I think that it was like, Okay, that's one of
my goals for this year.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I got to get the cat.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Okay, We're well because now there's a question of how
much of that was you and how much of me.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Listen, I don't think that just because you wake up
every day and you look at a board, that it's
magically gone.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, okay, okay, No. I mean I think.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
That there are things that are good to have, even
in our subconscious. It's good to look at something and
have it there direction sure, and we.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Also have to do things.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I think that things that I do to be in
the present are my prayer and meditation, And through prayer
and meditation, I feel more in the flow of my
day and what is happening, and I'm open to witnessing more.
Not sure if you're going to love or hate this
word synchronicities that happen.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I'm all right with alignment, thank you. Is that.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So when I'm doing prayer and meditation and I'm more
in the flow of my day, which meditation and prayer
keep you very present. I think sometimes you can be
thinking of things ahead, but when you're having a prayer
time or a meditation time, you're constantly having to bring
bring your brain back into the moment. And that's what
was so frustrating to me growing up about prayer time
(24:55):
and I never really had a meditation practice until last year,
but I joined at the two. I feel like it
made my prayer time. I kind of use it as both.
But a frustration I had as a child praying is
my ADHD brain. I felt as though I am not
a good prayer. I can't pray my brain. It's hard,
(25:17):
right and being still and my brain was constantly go, go, go,
so being still was not happening inside my head. And
I think that the meditation has helped train my brain,
or at least show me or hearing people speak about
it in a way. Now are they coming from a
prayer space or a Christian space? No, But the people
(25:39):
that I've heard talk about it, I have been able
to translate it for myself how it will work best
for me. And when I heard them say they meditate
for an hour a day and they have to tell
their brain to come back to the present multiple times,
I kept thinking, well, I can't do it right until
I can do it perfect. And I learned that like, oh,
(25:59):
there's like a strategy that you had.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I just had to jump through the hoo.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I just thought other people are better at this than me,
and this is like not my thing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So I'm not gonna really do you know where that
came from?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, I mean yeah, we could go through a whole
thing of my childhood and not believing in myself really
from teachers, and I think some of that was because
of my performance in school, because of my ADHD. I
wasn't diagnosed I was at the time. I wasn't nothing
was being done holistically or did you ever feel any medication?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay, did you ever feel any like mountaintop moments where
you're like, I'm awesome, even if it was just for
or five minutes in a day when you're in middle
school or something.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
This is something I've worked through in therapy as an
adult in the last few years. Huge mountaintop moment where
I was so proud of myself and literally ten minutes after,
was knocked back down by a teacher who was actually
trying to give me a compliment about my mountain moment,
but she shared it with such disbelief in all, like
she couldn't believe that I just did what I did.
(26:58):
That it did the opposite inside of me where I
was like, oh my gosh, she believed that in me.
She didn't even think I could do that. She should
not be this surprised. Yet I have performed in such
a way where now she is so surprised by me
actually doing something good.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, that it ruined the I think there's a perfect
point to speak about Madonna, and then maybe can come
back and speak more even on that. But Madonna in
this book A Freedom of Self Forgetfulness, tim Keller makes
it clear that she's not alone. In some sense, she's
a beautiful example because she's very self aware. But in
an open interview, in a public interview that was published,
(27:37):
she spoke about how in her mountaintop moments, just to
put it simple, in some of the moments where she's
had awards, she was considered one of the greatest, she
was on top of the world, in the music industry,
et cetera. And even beyond that that she said it
wasn't I don't know what the exact time, but basically
it wasn't five seconds before she felt like, I've got
to do it again. I've got to do it again.
(27:57):
I've got to prove myself again. I've got to prove
my enough. Yeah, I've never arrived. And again that's because
her ego just use the word again, her ego is
basically saying, you have to prove yourself. Your identity is here,
and if you are not on the mountaintop, then you
are nobody. And I think a lot of people live
(28:20):
like that. I think that's why even in I mean
that's another branch, but with the uptick in device use applications,
social media's, etc. There is a sort of constant narrative
that you're the main character in this grand movie and
it does revolve around you. The world revolves around you,
(28:40):
or it depends on you, and that can be again daunting.
It can feel terrible, or some people feel like, wow,
they're way above They've got to be a savior, et cetera.
But I don't know to bring it back, what if
you have a specific example, do you have another one
past high school or past that moment where you felt like, dang,
I feel good and then you had to feel a
(29:02):
sense of I need to turn around a game.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I mean, my example was more so that I was
knocked down by another person, whereas Madonna was it was
an internal drive to achieve more and be the best,
and she never felt.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That she was that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I'm sure some of that came externally though, too.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Sure, what's the origin of it that's not shared in there.
I'm not sure for her, but I don't share that
same drive. Maybe other people see something. I mean, I
do feel as though I am aware enough to know
that I'm not constantly trying to achieve anything, to prove
anything to myself. I witness that every day. I mean,
(29:44):
I feel like Bobby's like this, and he would admit it.
I'm not talking about him nights back. This is a thing,
like I would say to his face, like, sure, he's
very similar in that he's achieved so much and it's
never enough.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I love what I do.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I could also walk away today and go live in
a quiet mountain town. I mean, I think that obviously
I chase certain things. I'm not saying that I'm the
complete opposite of Madonna, but I'm not one of those
that's chasing the top of the mountain everywhere. Some of
that could be rooted in fear of like, well, what
if I don't get there, or I get there and
(30:20):
somebody knocks me right off. I don't know, but I
don't have that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, Well maybe that's I mean, I think in the
book he addresses it. That's a very poignant point or
apropos I think that this doesn't apply to me. I
don't have any resonance with this kind of topic because
I don't have grandiose streams or I'm not trying to
get to some mountaintop. And he's trying to say it's
much deeper than that. You know the heart issue here, Well, you.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Know this resonates with me. Sure, sure, the message the
central theme. Yeah, but in a different way.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think, sure, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like we've
said it already, so maybe for the listener it's helpful
to repeat that you're clearly saying right now, like I
don't have some mountaintops I'm chasing right now, I'm okay
with no mountaintops. I like to apply myself. I want
to work hard, I want to do excellent work and
what I put my hands to. All that makes a
lot of sense. But at the same time, you're like,
(31:11):
I'm okay with not doing any of it. I'm okay
with letting all of it go, and I feel peace
with that. But that doesn't mean that you don't have
an ego or that you're not a human being. It
doesn't feel.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, showing up in other ways it is important.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, my brain just went to sourdough bread again because
I think seeing a lot of people baked during the
pandemic when they were home and they were doing it
(31:48):
all and they got really really good at it, and
their bread started.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
To look so beautiful and amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I mean some of the sourdough you do the little designs,
and it can just look so really when it comes
out of the oven. And I think that's one of
those things where I can look at everybody else doing
and be like, oh, I could never do that, because
to me it seems like a daunting process to like
do the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And I can either see that as oh, I just
let them do it. Am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Or I could say, oh, well, thank you Lord for
showing me that if they can do it, it is possible,
and I can do it, so I'll get my starter.
That's a low level of sort of what we're talking about.
If there's higher goals you have, like baking sourer bread, okay,
that's one thing, But sometimes we get really worked up
with maybe work things or athletic things. You're seeing other
(32:36):
people achieve stuff and you look at it and you're ugh,
how can they get to do that and I don't.
Something I do and flip, especially career wise, is if
I come across something, maybe on Instagram, where maybe my
ego might have that reaction of like, oh, they're getting
to do that, and like I've never been asked to
do that or whatever, I say, no, thank you Lord
(32:57):
for showing me this person out there doing that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yay for them.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
And also it is possible for me like that, This
is a reminder that I can do this too, if
that's something that I'm supposed to do, and I have
that heart of you know, excitement for them, and instead
of it making me bitter towards what I'm not doing,
I get to celebrate what they're doing and be thankful
that I am. I have a way to see that
(33:23):
that is possible mm hm.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And you have to be very very honest, fiercely honest
with yourself in that place you really do, because otherwise
what will you do? You will chase every little hot
iron in the fire that oh these people are doing
that I need to do that, or these people are
implementing this strategy or this tactic there and they're involved
in this industry and X y z, I should be
doing well.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
The key yahs is if that is what I'm something
I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Oh yeah, I'm just resonating with you. Yeah yeah, I
think you said it very well.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
So like, if you see other people baking sour dough bread,
don't don't doubt yourself, you too can do it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Apparently a case.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
That's what you're supposed to do. So that's what I do.
They do a better job than I do. Well.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Caitlin did say last night that there's this whole starter
kit you can get. Once I find out all the details,
I will share it. But it's some woman that puts
together everything you need and you just order it all,
even the starter you know, the thing you have to
like feed to keep alive, and you get everything you need,
all the tools. It all comes in this little box
(34:28):
and then you're good to go. Instead of having to
like research and get this that and go order this
there and that, just get everything from this one person.
So sourdough bread coming up soon we're speaking of I'm
going to go make us lice like right now, ya, Jeremiah,
before we go, can you share four things you're currently
thankful for?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Oh? Yeah, four things I'm currently thankful for. One, I
would start with my health because we've spoken about that.
At the moment, I don't have any cut thumbs or
broken toes that are distracting me.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Or hurt helbone.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, that as well. I'm really grateful for my health,
and there's a lot of you'll wash your hands and
drink your water, stay stay healthy. There are a lot
of sickness going around. Two I would say, for sure
the fellowship of some close friends. It's been some really wonderful,
perfectly timed, unplanned calls and words of encouragement that have
(35:22):
been good for my spirit. And I'm really grateful for that.
That's one of those things. Can't You can't orchestrate that
or manufacture that.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
You didn't have that on your vision board.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, no, I did not manifest that. Three I would
say sports. It's a great time of year. I love
I was European football. There's some good stuff, transfer windows open,
there's some exciting things going on overseas, and then you've
got the NFL playoffs happening, college football. All that stuff
just finished up and you got to shuffle. Yeah, it's
(35:49):
just a fun for me, sort of like food et cetera.
It's a fun place to fellowship. I haven't been back
in Nashville for very long, and I didn't plan to
be here even as long as I have been, but
that's been one of the highlights being back here is
just there's always somebodies. Hey, let's go play basketball. You
play for three hours, Let's go play football, let's go
play soccer, and it's just fun. You find that here
much more than you do and some of the other
(36:11):
places up in number four. I would have to say
as far as starting the year the gift of solitude,
there are a couple moments that were just real gifts
of solitude that helped me be able to take a
breath and reflect and digest some things I needed to digest,
and it brought some clarity on some things that I've
(36:33):
been wrestling with for a while, and even just the
very fact that that's something that you have to You
have to work. It's a labor to try and have
solitude and have moments of prayer and quiet. It takes exercise,
You have to work really hard to get those moments,
but it's so valuable, so it's worth the effort.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
With that encouragement, for sure, thank you Jeremiah for joining
me in this conversation. Thank you for gifting me the
book The Freedom of Self Forgetfulness. I'll link it in
the show notes. It's easy to find. It's so small,
like Jeremih said, it's more like a pamphlet of sorts.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's really cheap.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
As well, so it is something if you wanted to
buy for yourself or even buy for some friends. I
think that this is a book where you could get
it for a group, like similar to a book club,
and y'all are all reading it together and having discussions
around it, maybe some group texts going. I know that
some of my friends or Shannon Chase, we've all had
(37:38):
talks around this book. I bought it from my sister
and her husband.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's here. I need to mail it to them.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
But I think it's just something good because something Jeremiah
mentioned earlier as well is accountability. So if everybody's kind
of on the same page with it, then you can
kind of also.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
You go check.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But I mean just the.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Most bought book. I'll say that I bought this book
for other people more than any other book easily. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, I mean, it's such a gift we love us
some Tim Keller, so yay, thank you Jeremiah, and hope
y'all are having the day that you need to have,
by ye. So
Cast up Little Food for yourself life.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh it's pretty bad. Hey, it's pretty beautiful. Thing beautiful.
That for a little more exciting, said he your kicking with
full thing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
With Amy Brown.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Happy Thursday, four Things Amy here, and my guest today
is a friend Jeremiah Carter.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's been on the podcast before.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I'm starting the conversation off with sour dough bread, which
we're going to talk about more than that. We're actually
going to talk about the freedom of self forgetfulness, which
I feel like a couple of months ago when you're
on the podcast, you brought this book up by Tim
Keller and you touched on it a little bit. But
since then, I read it a few times. It's a
(01:03):
very short book, very and I'll probably need to read
it like five hundred more times just to get it down.
I feel like that's the sentiment of others that have
read it. I know you gave it to our friend
Chase and he's already read it a couple times.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Evan, Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
So we'll get into how you came across this book,
why you like to gift it to people, and I'll
share an example of a time where I definitely made
something about me. That wasn't about me, not necessarily the
details of everything, But I just think that reading something
and really understanding it and then going through like a
(01:41):
life experience that where you could have implemented it but
you didn't, and then next day having that realization of like,
oh now I understand this better. So I think the
more you read it, the more you'll have those moments
where you look back on a conversation maybe you had
just had and you're like, oh, shoot, yeah, I could
have implemented this concept, which is nothing new.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It's from the Bible, so it's been.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Around a minute, Paul, shout out, But shuld have something
that's nothing new is sourdough bread.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Homemade bread.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
That's definitely been around for quite some time as well.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
But do we know when that began? We should fight it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I can look it up.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We could look it up.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well, you talk about getting homemade sourdough bread from the
local bakery.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Okay, yeah, so you wanted to bake your own bread.
And that came up for me because we were trying
to find someplace to eat while we were in between
schedule stuff. I don't even remember, but we went over
one place over near a place in Wedgwood, Houston and
Nashville called A Dozen Bakery, which I really like to
go to, but I usually like to go to just
(02:48):
after the last lunch hour rush. And they have really
good in house baked bread, not just sourdough bread, but
they have multiple versions of sourdough bread, they have other
bread and then they do very good sandwiches on their
own bread or breakfast sandwiches. They do their own in
house cookies, pastries, coffee, stuff like that. So it's a
typical bakery, but it's I would say one of the
(03:11):
better ones, and that they do everything as I understand
it in the house and it just tastes unbelievable. So
that day had just closed at two pm. The next day,
I wanted to go before church it was opening at
eight am, and by the time I got there was
a line out the door. And there's a good amount
of line space inside.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
In twenty degree weather.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, yeah, in twenty degree weather or colder. And I
don't ever remember seeing that before. Again, I'm more of
a mid day guy. But I think someone's discovered the
secret and post about it, shouted about it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, So if you come to Nashville, try to go
to a dozen bakery or this is just encouragement if
you don't want to bake your own, or you don't
have a starter, because I want to bake my own,
but I don't have a starter yet.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
But I'm going to get one and then try to
make my own.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
But in the meantime, we can support local bakeries in
our area, so wherever you live.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And that's just something that's not always top of mind
for me.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Like I go to the grocery store and I normally
just go to the freezer section and get my ezekiel bread,
which is great. But once I was craving the sourdough bread,
I thought, oh, well, one way to achieve that since
I'm not making my own yet, it's just to go
to a local bakeries such as doesn't.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
And may I recommend how you eat it.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
To slice the sour dough bread, put it in the toaster,
butter it add a little sea salt and then some
honey on top, and it's like amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, you're a big toast fan. You have lots of
versions of toast, but that's a really top choice. What
you just said.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
And you know, something that came up yesterday too. Around
the topic of food is sometimes how we can miss
out on things like that. I mean, there was definitely
a time in my life where there's no way I
would have eaten sour dough bread with butter and honey,
Like I'd just been like, sorry, it's not on my
list of things that I eat.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Sure, so lots of lists out there.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
I wouldn't have allowed myself to enjoy sourdough bread and
it's so it's so good.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I would be missing out on so much.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And so as I say that, I know it's the
start of the year and people start certain things in
the new year a lot of times, and you might
be thinking, oh, well, that would be great, but sourdough
bread's not on my list. And I'm not saying toss
out whatever you have going on for yourself that's going
to help you feel good. I don't know what that is,
but what came up, and it wasn't just about the bread.
(05:33):
It was food in general and breaking bread with people
and community and hanging out with family and friends. Of
sometimes how we are so focused on ourselves bringing in
the freedom of self forgetfulness that we prioritize that over
community and how that will fill up our cup more
(05:56):
or our body will figure out what to do with it,
and it will have the joy from those moments than
the anxiety we have or the sadness around having to
walk away from that. And then you know, having it
and being content with it and doesn't mean if you
have it you have to eat the whole loaf because
you're never going to have soured.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
O bread again. Like that, enjoy the moment with your people.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Sure, yeah, it doesn't have to be feast or famine.
I think, of course, as you've already noted, there are
a lot of avenues we could go down, but broadway,
the main drag is we're trying to speak about how
enriching the things around the actual meal are for the
meal itself, as far as it relates to your body.
I think that there are things that we can't even quantify,
(06:38):
but go look at the research. Research will show you that. Yeah,
people in a sense have much better levels in their
body of certain responses, you know, quartos, all responses, et cetera,
when they are able to just enjoy the people they're
with instead of trying to hyper control their whole environment.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, and then how that ties into its freedom, like
when you're not trying to hyper control in those moments.
It's not exactly what Paul is talking about, sure in
his letter to Corinthian, but it certainly ties in and
can definitely play a role when you are in a
(07:16):
way trying to minimize yourself. I think we spend a
lot of days making everything about ourselves, and I think
that's sort of the natural thing to do, Like why
not we can be wired that way. I know that
my brain I was constantly concerned. I've done a lot
of work on it, but overly concerned about what others
thought of me, and even crushed by it. If it
(07:38):
was that, I thought it was something negative. Even my
own opinion of myself carried too much weights for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I feel like that's where you kind of that's where
you lived, like your time, your energy, your thoughts. They
would not one percent, but they would more or less.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Live there majority of the time what other people thought
of me. Yes, and then myion of myself was not high,
So then that was just exhausting.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, it's exhausting, and that's pretty normal. I think you
have a very relatable experience. I think most people, if
they're honest with themselves would say they know exactly what
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah. I mean I think that whether we admit it
or not, we all care to varying degrees what people
think of us.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, and in some sense, you know, again, more avenues
to go down. But I think all good things take time.
Relationships are one of those things. Relationships shape us, They
in a lot of ways, make us. You do need
to pick good people to be around. And there are
people that constantly love to shout about as I think
they're going through growth and changes, maybe progression. They can
(08:43):
get to places where they say, I don't care what
anybody thinks about me, And in some sense I understand
where they're coming from. But I don't think that that's
necessarily fully honest one and two, I don't even think
that that's very healthy or good because at some level
you should care what some people think in your life,
and you've invited certain people into your life to care
to call you out to say, hey, behavior right now,
(09:06):
this kind of action not helpful, not healthy for you.
I want more for you than this, and that's a
good thing, and you should probably consider what they think about.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
You, right Yea, I think that it's too like for
me and just sharing my personal experience with some of
those thoughts, they would loop in my brain and I
was losing sleep over it, and ugh, it was just
certain things were devastating to me. Yeah, And in the book,
Tim talks about those types of things and we should
not be losing sleepover.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, do you have an example. Maybe that's I'm putting
you on the spot too much, but like, I think
that a lot of people have lost sleep over their
mind running around one scenario, one word of the day,
one interaction, that somebody said something to them that pricked
a little place in them and they don't even understand
what that place that was pricked is, but they're going
to go to trying to manage how they can change
(09:54):
what the person who pricked it was, you know what
I mean, what their opinion was, what their words were,
instead trying to deal with what actually got pricked.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, And that's what that's the indicator, that's your your
ego's coming out. And that's what he talks about in
the book, which Tim says Paul has reached a place
where his ego draws no more attention to itself than
any other part of his body and he uses an
example of your toe, and you know your ego, you
notice it when it's injured.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
It's funny. Even yesterday you were cooking something you cut
your finger, And what did Caitlyn say in the evening?
She was like, how nice is it for the other
three of us who don't have any cut fingers at
the moment, Like, you don't notice until boom, you've cut
your finger, and it drives you nuts when you wash
your face, when you brush your teeth, when you're trying
to bake cookies, when you're trying to et cetera.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Oh yeah, I was trying to button up my jeans
and I had to use my thumb, and I was like, well,
this is really difficult at the moment. Yeah, And then
Kaylen even went on to say, you know, like when
you have a sore throat, and so you're like, oh, gosh, man,
just the last few months I didn't have a sore
throat and I wasn't thankful.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, you have.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It stands out there.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So first Corinthians four to three is I care very
little if I am judged by you or by any
human court. Indeed, I do not even judge myself. And
the court is mentioned there because I think a lot
of times we take ourselves into the court room, either
we call the session with our people in our life
(11:22):
or we enter into it with someone else. And I
know I've certainly had examples of that. I mean, you
and I even have had an example of that where
I definitely took you to court once and then at
the moment I thought like it was totally valid and justified.
And then the next day, I think I woke up
(11:42):
and was like, shoot, I went to court and that
I didn't need to. That could be something that was released.
But I also am thankful for it because it showed
me another example of times where maybe down the line,
if I encounter something similar, I'll be reminded of this
learning lesson. And now, okay, check myself, because that was
(12:05):
my ego showing up.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I can obviously remember the specific example and we don't
need to get into it. But I think it's good
in a sense for you to share and be honest
about what you feel what you saw. But that's amazing
that you had that self reflection as well. I mean,
I think, again, all good things take time. Relationships matter,
and I think that what we're getting back to the
(12:28):
book is that kind of indications. You realize that the
ego exists. You're a human being, so the ego is there.
You realize that the ego exists, you're a human being,
(12:48):
So the ego is there. It's going to be there.
But what is the way that it is being given
life for? How is it managed? Because Paul will also say,
I mean you can go to places in ealations. I
guess it is. What is that maybe chapter six, verse seven,
y'all can go look that up until me if I'm right.
But he talks about taking pride in the way you operate,
and he's saying, but don't take pride in the way
(13:10):
you operate in the sense that you're comparing against somebody else.
And that's part of what and back to the point
this book, the freedom of self forgetfulness. It's part of
what's been so beautiful for me to be able to
share it with anybody who thinks the Bible is ridiculous,
who thinks that Christianity is ridiculous, God belief in God
is ridiculous or not. And I think Keller is, in
(13:30):
my opinion, one of the best of all time at
being able to make very simple practical wisdom, very palatable,
very absorbable for most anyone. And he's having to do
it out of New York, where you have intellectuals from
all over the world that think, in some sense they
are above and beyond or have moved forward from places
that other people are still stuck in. And this book
(13:52):
is again we're calling it a book, but it's a
forty page little tiny not pamphlet, but not book. So
it is just very concise, clear wisdom. And he's saying, look,
you're human, you're a human being, and you do have
an ego. It exists. There's a part of you that
wants to take pride in the way you live. Because
of that, you want to then measure everything where are
(14:13):
we there? Is it a low self esteem thing or
a high self esteem thing? Which is what I think
we talked about more in the last podcast when I
brought this up of which way should we go? You know,
in the in the past, counselors or therapists would talk
about how you know, there was there was too high
a self esteem of people and it was better to
have a low self esteem. And nowadays they're saying that
everybody has too low self esteem and you need to
(14:34):
have a way higher self esteem. And Paul's sitting there saying, no, neither,
why are you talking about your self esteem? In a sense,
I do think that there are a lot of people
out there that because they can get into this, you
know again, that pricked moment, they can capture a lot
of souls, capture a lot of attention by just bringing
in something that is spiritually new to someone and feels
(14:56):
right and good that they can understand, and they say, oh,
I want to die into X y Z. Three steps
to fulfillment, five steps to piece, seven steps to success.
And he's saying, that's just going into the courtroom again,
and does it last forever? Because then you're just measuring
everything and then it all is about you, And at
(15:16):
that point it becomes suffocating, it becomes painful, or it's
bloated to the point where it's just airspace. You're just empty,
there's an emptiness. He gives multiple very good, clear examples.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
But yeah, I think there's really helpful illustrations, real life examples.
And like you said, Tim Keller was amazing at this
Madonna that you know, non Christians could relate to, Like
I feel like anybody could read this and benefit from it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Although I do love a good seven Steps.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
To Peace, I'm not gonna lie like I don't. I
can read this over and over, but I like things
like that, and those are for me and my moments,
and I've certainly shared several things like that here on
the podcast with people. But I like having this as
a base and seeing it as something and explain to
(16:06):
me in a way that I have not ever received before.
And we'll spend continue to spend more time with it.
But I think that I know myself and I'll still
partake in some of the other stuff, but just with
a healthier base of the ego.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Thoughts on that, well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I guess I'll ask a question and say a thought
at the same time. One I'd love to hear more
of what you even mean by that. I'm sure the
listeners would too, of what exactly you mean by what
you've benefited from this and your understanding of the ego.
Maybe not to future cast too much, but one of
the things that I would like to talk about in
the future is this idea of understanding oneself and how
beneficial it is to understand the world, and part of
(16:47):
that being taught at a very very early age, through sports,
through team sports. There's so much to gain from that
and seeing outside yourself and looking in the same direction
with a group of people and seeing who they are
and where they excel and being able to surrender certain
things over to them, et cetera, et cetera. There's lots
of really good richness there. And we were speaking about
(17:09):
it in the sense of I guess, vision casting, manifesting
a vision board, trying to have a focus. At face value,
you could say, okay, well let's just define it. What
are you manifesting and where are you manifesting it from?
Those questions probably need to be answered. But on the
(17:29):
other side, you can simply say, like, yeah, okay, I
learned when I was in middle school or beforehand, like
to focus and envision making the shot before I make it, practicing, yeah,
practicing my free throws, practicing my form, repetition, hard work
in that place, surrender in that place, getting outside myself
(17:51):
in that place because I believe it'll help the team.
There's a lot there.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Or in a rush a driver, I don't know if
y'all see rush shout outsworth, Wow, what a pool?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, he does visualization in the visualizing the track and
how his car, how he's going to RaSE it, which.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Grants arisma as well. Now they have more technology and
people can practice on it.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Michael Jordan, you visualize like you're saying the basketball stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right any who, So I've made it longer than I'm
meant to already, but on the growth path in that process,
sometimes you kind of want to step back and ask
people like, is this your first time to think about
hard work and concentration? Like is that part of what
you're calling manifestation? Is this your first time to think
(18:40):
about that?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Sounds incredibly condescending, right it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Can, But in some sense you're trying to say, like, look,
it is a bit laughable when it said that way,
but it is. It is a point of difference in
one is saying that person who's focusing the way they
are and giving their time and attention is focusing on
the process, focusing on what's at hand in the driveway,
practicing their free throws. To continue with that example, and
(19:05):
oftentimes I think manifesting or trying to envision or future
cast is about a future outcome. It's always about the outcomes.
It's about the goals. It's where you want to end up,
and we miss so much when our focus is at
the end. It's at the finish line in some sense, right,
And so I think that to bring it back, or
try to bring it back. With Tim Keller in this book,
(19:27):
what he's trying to get people to see on a
number of levels is who are you right now? You know?
And what is it that you are operating in right now?
And why is that? If you're living in a way
that your identity and your worth, your value comes from
something out in the world, your ego is always going
to be pendulum swinging. You know, in some sense, you're
(19:48):
going to be pricked by a feeling like you're not enough,
pricked by feeling like you're better than everybody else, back
and forth. And he's like, well, what if it comes
from a place that's neither. There's nothing left to prove.
Everything is already solid, You are made on purpose, and
you get to actually be calm in that you don't
have to prove anything to anybody. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, no, I mean I've read the book.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I'm following with you, and I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I just also think you can still have a vision
board and want things for yourself in the future and
be very much in the present.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yes, but that takes work too, Kavit.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I'm not trying to hate my visual boards. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I have glue sticks downstairs if you want to make one.
Don't not get until you try to be a vision.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Board home in the last number of weeks, saysn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, well, people keep coming over to make their vision
board and then we end up just eating popcorn and talking.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So we haven't gotten around to it much this year.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
But which is that more valuable? The relationships eye contact,
face to face? Is that even more valuable for holding
you accountable for things you want to do and how
you want to walk walk in your life then putting
it on on corkboard.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think they're both good.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I'm not saying one's not valuable.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I remember last year having really good We're present
in the moment times around my kitchen table with girlfriends
making our vision boards, talking, laughing, cutting things out, and
I think it's all within reason and having a healthy
perspective and knowing that just because you cut something out
(21:20):
and pasted on this vision board does not mean that
that's what's in store for you, sure, But for me,
it's having my eyes on things I would like. May
it totally do a one to eighty from that?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Sure? And I have to be open to that.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And it's like a prayer of these are my heart's desires.
This is my heart's desire, this, this, this and this
and this, and I'm going to pray for it. And
then I will have to accept what God's will is
for my life and know that if that's not meant
to be my heart's desire, well hopefully correct course, I
may have to grieve certain things that I've been excited about,
(21:58):
but know that oh they're you know, there's something else.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I hear you and I feel you there. I think
what I'm trying to get towards is sort of what
we began with the sour dough bread again in some sense,
with a vision for something way down the road. Do
you ever feel like that sometimes you miss the day
to day?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Well, you know how much I say I'm being present,
I have to practice being present and that is something
that I think you have to be aware of for sure,
to be in the present.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I guess that's the second question. Then it might be
interesting to hear you speak on this, What do you
feel like was more valuable. Let's just take let's pretend
I don't know if you even did it sounds like
you did, but vision board twenty twenty two into twenty
twenty three, or however you'd say.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yes, it's in my closet half of it because my
dog ate some of it, and that to me was
a clear sign that, like what a dog ake and removed?
I was like, well, I guess God's just telling me
let it go.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
What do you remember most about that vision board? That
board and things you cut out, or the time that
you spent with the actual people that were there while
you were making you know.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
The two years before my vision board had a cat
on it, before I had a cat.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Why did you make that turn?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Because I know how much you love Maggie and I
manifested her.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Really, yeah, you meant what color was Maggie on your
vision board?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I don't remember. It's just cats.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I played a cat, made one and she put a cat,
and then we got our cat. Okay, you know, but
I think that it was like, Okay, that's one of
my goals for this year.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I got to get the cat.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Okay, We're well because now there's a question of how
much of that was you and how much of me.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Listen, I don't think that just because you wake up
every day and you look at a board, that it's
magically gone.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, okay, okay, No. I mean I think.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
That there are things that are good to have, even
in our subconscious. It's good to look at something and
have it there direction sure, and we.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Also have to do things.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I think that things that I do to be in
the present are my prayer and meditation, And through prayer
and meditation, I feel more in the flow of my
day and what is happening, and I'm open to witnessing more.
Not sure if you're going to love or hate this
word synchronicities that happen.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I'm all right with alignment, thank you. Is that.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So when I'm doing prayer and meditation and I'm more
in the flow of my day, which meditation and prayer
keep you very present. I think sometimes you can be
thinking of things ahead, but when you're having a prayer
time or a meditation time, you're constantly having to bring
bring your brain back into the moment. And that's what
was so frustrating to me growing up about prayer time
(24:55):
and I never really had a meditation practice until last year,
but I joined at the two. I feel like it
made my prayer time. I kind of use it as both.
But a frustration I had as a child praying is
my ADHD brain. I felt as though I am not
a good prayer. I can't pray my brain. It's hard,
(25:17):
right and being still and my brain was constantly go, go, go,
so being still was not happening inside my head. And
I think that the meditation has helped train my brain,
or at least show me or hearing people speak about
it in a way. Now are they coming from a
prayer space or a Christian space? No, But the people
(25:39):
that I've heard talk about it, I have been able
to translate it for myself how it will work best
for me. And when I heard them say they meditate
for an hour a day and they have to tell
their brain to come back to the present multiple times,
I kept thinking, well, I can't do it right until
I can do it perfect. And I learned that like, oh,
(25:59):
there's like a strategy that you had.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I just had to jump through the hoo.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I just thought other people are better at this than me,
and this is like not my thing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So I'm not gonna really do you know where that
came from?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, I mean yeah, we could go through a whole
thing of my childhood and not believing in myself really
from teachers, and I think some of that was because
of my performance in school, because of my ADHD. I
wasn't diagnosed I was at the time. I wasn't nothing
was being done holistically or did you ever feel any medication?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay, did you ever feel any like mountaintop moments where
you're like, I'm awesome, even if it was just for
or five minutes in a day when you're in middle
school or something.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
This is something I've worked through in therapy as an
adult in the last few years. Huge mountaintop moment where
I was so proud of myself and literally ten minutes after,
was knocked back down by a teacher who was actually
trying to give me a compliment about my mountain moment,
but she shared it with such disbelief in all, like
she couldn't believe that I just did what I did.
(26:58):
That it did the opposite inside of me where I
was like, oh my gosh, she believed that in me.
She didn't even think I could do that. She should
not be this surprised. Yet I have performed in such
a way where now she is so surprised by me
actually doing something good.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, that it ruined the I think there's a perfect
point to speak about Madonna, and then maybe can come
back and speak more even on that. But Madonna in
this book A Freedom of Self Forgetfulness, tim Keller makes
it clear that she's not alone. In some sense, she's
a beautiful example because she's very self aware. But in
an open interview, in a public interview that was published,
(27:37):
she spoke about how in her mountaintop moments, just to
put it simple, in some of the moments where she's
had awards, she was considered one of the greatest, she
was on top of the world, in the music industry,
et cetera. And even beyond that that she said it
wasn't I don't know what the exact time, but basically
it wasn't five seconds before she felt like, I've got
to do it again. I've got to do it again.
(27:57):
I've got to prove myself again. I've got to prove
my enough. Yeah, I've never arrived. And again that's because
her ego just use the word again, her ego is
basically saying, you have to prove yourself. Your identity is here,
and if you are not on the mountaintop, then you
are nobody. And I think a lot of people live
(28:20):
like that. I think that's why even in I mean
that's another branch, but with the uptick in device use applications,
social media's, etc. There is a sort of constant narrative
that you're the main character in this grand movie and
it does revolve around you. The world revolves around you,
(28:40):
or it depends on you, and that can be again daunting.
It can feel terrible, or some people feel like, wow,
they're way above They've got to be a savior, et cetera.
But I don't know to bring it back, what if
you have a specific example, do you have another one
past high school or past that moment where you felt like, dang,
I feel good and then you had to feel a
(29:02):
sense of I need to turn around a game.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I mean, my example was more so that I was
knocked down by another person, whereas Madonna was it was
an internal drive to achieve more and be the best,
and she never felt.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That she was that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I'm sure some of that came externally though, too.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Sure, what's the origin of it that's not shared in there.
I'm not sure for her, but I don't share that
same drive. Maybe other people see something. I mean, I
do feel as though I am aware enough to know
that I'm not constantly trying to achieve anything, to prove
anything to myself. I witness that every day. I mean,
(29:44):
I feel like Bobby's like this, and he would admit it.
I'm not talking about him nights back. This is a thing,
like I would say to his face, like, sure, he's
very similar in that he's achieved so much and it's
never enough.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I love what I do.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I could also walk away today and go live in
a quiet mountain town. I mean, I think that obviously
I chase certain things. I'm not saying that I'm the
complete opposite of Madonna, but I'm not one of those
that's chasing the top of the mountain everywhere. Some of
that could be rooted in fear of like, well, what
if I don't get there, or I get there and
(30:20):
somebody knocks me right off. I don't know, but I
don't have that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, Well maybe that's I mean, I think in the
book he addresses it. That's a very poignant point or
apropos I think that this doesn't apply to me. I
don't have any resonance with this kind of topic because
I don't have grandiose streams or I'm not trying to
get to some mountaintop. And he's trying to say it's
much deeper than that. You know the heart issue here, Well, you.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Know this resonates with me. Sure, sure, the message the
central theme. Yeah, but in a different way.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think, sure, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like we've
said it already, so maybe for the listener it's helpful
to repeat that you're clearly saying right now, like I
don't have some mountaintops I'm chasing right now, I'm okay
with no mountaintops. I like to apply myself. I want
to work hard, I want to do excellent work and
what I put my hands to. All that makes a
lot of sense. But at the same time, you're like,
(31:11):
I'm okay with not doing any of it. I'm okay
with letting all of it go, and I feel peace
with that. But that doesn't mean that you don't have
an ego or that you're not a human being. It
doesn't feel.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, showing up in other ways it is important.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, my brain just went to sourdough bread again because
I think seeing a lot of people baked during the
pandemic when they were home and they were doing it
(31:48):
all and they got really really good at it, and
their bread started.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
To look so beautiful and amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I mean some of the sourdough you do the little designs,
and it can just look so really when it comes
out of the oven. And I think that's one of
those things where I can look at everybody else doing
and be like, oh, I could never do that, because
to me it seems like a daunting process to like
do the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And I can either see that as oh, I just
let them do it. Am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Or I could say, oh, well, thank you Lord for
showing me that if they can do it, it is possible,
and I can do it, so I'll get my starter.
That's a low level of sort of what we're talking about.
If there's higher goals you have, like baking sourer bread, okay,
that's one thing, But sometimes we get really worked up
with maybe work things or athletic things. You're seeing other
(32:36):
people achieve stuff and you look at it and you're ugh,
how can they get to do that and I don't.
Something I do and flip, especially career wise, is if
I come across something, maybe on Instagram, where maybe my
ego might have that reaction of like, oh, they're getting
to do that, and like I've never been asked to
do that or whatever, I say, no, thank you Lord
(32:57):
for showing me this person out there doing that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yay for them.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
And also it is possible for me like that, This
is a reminder that I can do this too, if
that's something that I'm supposed to do, and I have
that heart of you know, excitement for them, and instead
of it making me bitter towards what I'm not doing,
I get to celebrate what they're doing and be thankful
that I am. I have a way to see that
(33:23):
that is possible mm hm.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And you have to be very very honest, fiercely honest
with yourself in that place you really do, because otherwise
what will you do? You will chase every little hot
iron in the fire that oh these people are doing
that I need to do that, or these people are
implementing this strategy or this tactic there and they're involved
in this industry and X y z, I should be
doing well.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
The key yahs is if that is what I'm something
I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Oh yeah, I'm just resonating with you. Yeah yeah, I
think you said it very well.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
So like, if you see other people baking sour dough bread,
don't don't doubt yourself, you too can do it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Apparently a case.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
That's what you're supposed to do. So that's what I do.
They do a better job than I do. Well.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Caitlin did say last night that there's this whole starter
kit you can get. Once I find out all the details,
I will share it. But it's some woman that puts
together everything you need and you just order it all,
even the starter you know, the thing you have to
like feed to keep alive, and you get everything you need,
all the tools. It all comes in this little box
(34:28):
and then you're good to go. Instead of having to
like research and get this that and go order this
there and that, just get everything from this one person.
So sourdough bread coming up soon we're speaking of I'm
going to go make us lice like right now, ya, Jeremiah,
before we go, can you share four things you're currently
thankful for?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Oh? Yeah, four things I'm currently thankful for. One, I
would start with my health because we've spoken about that.
At the moment, I don't have any cut thumbs or
broken toes that are distracting me.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Or hurt helbone.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, that as well. I'm really grateful for my health,
and there's a lot of you'll wash your hands and
drink your water, stay stay healthy. There are a lot
of sickness going around. Two I would say, for sure
the fellowship of some close friends. It's been some really wonderful,
perfectly timed, unplanned calls and words of encouragement that have
(35:22):
been good for my spirit. And I'm really grateful for that.
That's one of those things. Can't You can't orchestrate that
or manufacture that.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
You didn't have that on your vision board.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, no, I did not manifest that. Three I would
say sports. It's a great time of year. I love
I was European football. There's some good stuff, transfer windows open,
there's some exciting things going on overseas, and then you've
got the NFL playoffs happening, college football. All that stuff
just finished up and you got to shuffle. Yeah, it's
(35:49):
just a fun for me, sort of like food et cetera.
It's a fun place to fellowship. I haven't been back
in Nashville for very long, and I didn't plan to
be here even as long as I have been, but
that's been one of the highlights being back here is
just there's always somebodies. Hey, let's go play basketball. You
play for three hours, Let's go play football, let's go
play soccer, and it's just fun. You find that here
much more than you do and some of the other
(36:11):
places up in number four. I would have to say
as far as starting the year the gift of solitude,
there are a couple moments that were just real gifts
of solitude that helped me be able to take a
breath and reflect and digest some things I needed to digest,
and it brought some clarity on some things that I've
(36:33):
been wrestling with for a while, and even just the
very fact that that's something that you have to You
have to work. It's a labor to try and have
solitude and have moments of prayer and quiet. It takes exercise,
You have to work really hard to get those moments,
but it's so valuable, so it's worth the effort.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
With that encouragement, for sure, thank you Jeremiah for joining
me in this conversation. Thank you for gifting me the
book The Freedom of Self Forgetfulness. I'll link it in
the show notes. It's easy to find. It's so small,
like Jeremih said, it's more like a pamphlet of sorts.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's really cheap.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
As well, so it is something if you wanted to
buy for yourself or even buy for some friends. I
think that this is a book where you could get
it for a group, like similar to a book club,
and y'all are all reading it together and having discussions
around it, maybe some group texts going. I know that
some of my friends or Shannon Chase, we've all had
(37:38):
talks around this book. I bought it from my sister
and her husband.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's here. I need to mail it to them.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
But I think it's just something good because something Jeremiah
mentioned earlier as well is accountability. So if everybody's kind
of on the same page with it, then you can
kind of also.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
You go check.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But I mean just the.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Most bought book. I'll say that I bought this book
for other people more than any other book easily. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, I mean, it's such a gift we love us
some Tim Keller, so yay, thank you Jeremiah, and hope
y'all are having the day that you need to have,
by ye. So
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