September 30, 2025 • 38 mins
In Part 3 of our Four Horsemen series, we dive into contempt, the most dangerous predictor of relationship breakdown. Kat breaks down what contempt sounds like, why it’s referred to as “relational poison,” and how it impacts both emotional and even physical health. Most importantly, we go over the antidote from Dr. Gottman: building a culture of admiration and respect. Plus, Amy’s Feeling of the Day is sad, but it’s giving her some helpful information about herself and her relationship.
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HOSTS:
Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
Kat Van Buren // threecordstherapy.com // @KatVanburen
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just wons Amy
and Cat, gotcha, Cob and locking a brother, ladies and fels,
you just follow Ann the spirit where it's on the
front real stuff to the chaill stuff and the.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
M but Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do
it just.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Stop you feel things.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is feeling things.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
With Amy and Cat.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling Things. I'm Amy and I'm
Cat and we are continuing our series on the Four
Horsemen from doctor John Gottman, and today's is a doozy.
We finally hit the one that will just send your
relationship down the drain down the toilet right like a
slow flush. And then one day you're just like.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Oh wow, I think the criticism is like the slow flush, this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Is the well, but how fast? I mean you might
live with it for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
This is like I'm just it's like Jarn, It's like
you feel it.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I saw if you stay in this one you get
sick more. I told Kat I didn't read in too
much on this one. Because we have a doc where
we build everything that Kat is the therapist, so she's
delivering this information to us and this is something that
you probably go over with clients and stuff or recommend
to them or recommend that they do more research themselves.
(01:25):
Because he has a book, right, he has a lot
of books. But he also I mean, is it specifically
for this or does he mention this.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
In This is just in his research information that you
can find. If anybody wants to know more and doesn't
want to read a book, you go to the Gotman
Institute's website. They have a blog, They have tons of articles.
They probably have ten articles just on contempt, which is
what we're talking about today, or just on the four horsemen.
(01:52):
So if you are interested or you just want to
read more, go there. That's a better place than just
googling or going on Wikipedia to learn because it's all
coming from his research. It's things that the Gotments have
put on there and people that work for them.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, and like by research, he was doing very intense
things with couples, like some even in his own home,
right or did I make that up? He might have
been doing that like therapy and like recording.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Then so he had the love lab. Is that what
you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, so his own home his lab whatever, But he
was monitoring people like filming them and watching their interactions.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like seeing how they were communicating.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Also, I didn't think about this, but if you if
you do a training with the Gotment Institute, you'll get
to see some of the recordings of therapy sessions and
sometimes you'll see them in like the waiting room and
stuff like that, and they'll talk you through those things.
Have you ever watched Couples Therapy?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Okay, it's I want to say, I don't know what
streaming service is on. It's not like a Netflix. It
might be HBO or something.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Less popular, but it's worth if they have a thirty
day trial, it's worth just doing that to watch the show.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Paramount Plus and Hulu.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh okay, Hulu. So it is the therapist on Their
name is doctor Orna, and she is incredible. When I
watch it, it feels like continuing education, but also it's entertaining.
It's a TV show, and I'm very weary of therapy
entertainment because I'm like, who would sign up to do
therapy on a TV show?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So who would That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I haven't actually done research on figuring the answer to that,
But my assumption is they're getting free therapy, and I'm
sure she's a pretty penny.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right, So I'm willing to share all of my things
with the world in exchange for.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
This theory because maybe it will save my marriage or
save my relationship. And they do a great job of
having all different kinds of relationships on there, all different
types of people, all different types of religions, Like it
kind of does kind of check every box. But if
you read about and learn about these four horsemen and
then you watch the show, it would be a fun
exercise for somebody to go in and look at like
(04:02):
when you see each one, and there are some when
you watch the ones and you're like, that's contempt. Even
I'm like, there's no way, And part of me is
like I don't want this couple to make it because
they are both hurting each other so often and so harshly.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Do you think two contempt people end up together or
one is the contempt and then the other person turns
contempt both.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I don't think it's just as like you married a
contemptuous person. I think that a lot of times what
happens in relationships is things build and build and build,
and then you start building this resentment and then you
become contemptuous towards your partner. Now, if you're married to
somebody who is has a lot of traits of narcissism
or is diagnosed as a narcissist, then they're probably gonna
be contemptuous at times. But I don't think it's just
(04:48):
like you are this person most of the time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
You know, Nick Cannon, Ye, Maria carries, yeah baby daddy
and then a lot of other Yeah baby Ddy's mama's. Yeah,
he was the baby daddy to a lot of babies. Yeah,
not just Maria carry. But I didn't know if you
knew that he was recently on the Breakfast Club and
he shared with them that he was diagnosed with MPD.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
No way. Yeah, I saw something somewhere that he said,
and maybe it was from there he said he wasn't
treating people very well, so maybe he's trying to get.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, I mean that that was a couple of years
ago that you know, he did all the tests and
it's a lot of questions and intense therapy and filling
out questionnaires and whatnot that he realized he had narcissistic
personality disorder. And that so many times he thought that's
just the way things were, but he's realized he can't
(05:42):
be that way, so he's doing the work to try
not to be that way. And I'm like, wow, this
just seems like the opposite of everything we hear. Now.
I've heard from experts that there is a possibility that
there can be work done, but that person has to
be open to it, and most narcisses aren't going to
be open to testing for it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, that's true. And I also was going to say,
and this is me just saying this, that this can
also happen. Somebody who's diagnosed with that personality disorder can
also present like they are this person who's like, oh
my gosh, I don't want to be this way. I'm
going to change this. That's a way to manipulate people too,
but they really have no intention of doing that. They're
(06:23):
like to get ahead of it. Does that make sense
that Costs are very good actors, not.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So much with him, I guess. But I guess I
thought that if because they tend to be very manipulative
and good at it, that why wouldn't they Just with
all this information now that we have about narcissism and
how it's everywhere. You kind of like see people saying
certain things and you're like, well, if I just don't
say that or act this way, then I either will
(06:47):
not be perceived as narcissist or I kind of know
the right thing to say now and then people will
see me in a different way. That crossed my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, there's a specific couple on one of the season
where you have a couple's therapy, yes, where you can
tell that there's some narcissism afloat, and the way that
the doctor orner handles it is like so beautiful where
you're not just like calling somebody out, but she's just
(07:17):
kind of she was trying to understand this person, and
he kept being like no, no, no, no, like she
wouldn't allow her to like she probably was actually getting
it right, but he kept always having an excuse for something,
even if she was like parroting back what he said.
And so she just said to him, it feels like
it's really hard to get things right for you with you?
Is that true? And he was like, what are you
(07:38):
talking about? And she's like, well, it just feels like
I'm trying to understand you and it feels really hard
for me to understand you. Do you feel that? Do
you feel like it's hard for people to understand you?
And you can. I'm going to find the season and
come back and tell you, guys, because it was such
a like a caring, empathetic view of how it looks
like to be in relationship with these people, and you
(08:00):
have so much empathy for the part too, and also like, hello,
now you deserve better than this. Yeah, I mean you
were going to say what you saw on the dock
we trailed off.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Oh no, just like under contempt. Like I told you,
I just went in to put my funny story that
I just went in to put my feeling of the day,
and I was like, I really didn't read much about it.
I was like, but what's crazy to me is that
if someone's in in a contemptuous relationship, they are more
susceptible to illness, Like they get sick more because they're
weakened immune system. And then you're like, well, that's at
(08:31):
the top of the dock, and I was like, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
The first thing, yeah, which is that's funny.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, and it's also in fun it's like four times
thicker than I just.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Thought that was crazy too, and it's yeah, your immune
system gets weakened, because I mean that speaks to how
our mental health affects the wholeness of our health. If
I'm constantly being beaten down or having to feel like
I have defend myself all the time, I don't feel
safe in my closest relationship, your body's going to take
that on and then you're not gonna be able to
(09:02):
fight off actual things like the flu.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, wild, it is crazy. I'm going to do the
feeling of the day before we get into contempt.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I would love to.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm sad. I know it doesn't seem sad sad, but
I'm sad because my boyfriend left for Paris today without me.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
This is you know, that's like the one place you
want to go.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
It's on my list, It's on my bucket list. Yes,
And of course I could go with him if I
didn't have work. I mean he would be working, but
I could still. And apparently then when he left today
because he came by to get a folding bag and
he was like, I think my hotel room looks all
to the Eiffel Tower, And I was like cool, stop
and He's like I can bring you a sweatshirt, and
(09:43):
I was like, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I think I can get that here
in the mall. But the sad is giving me information though,
like I'm sad that I can't be there, but also
I'm thankful for my job, so it's like give take,
and then I guess it's good that I'm sad because
like I care about my relationship, you know, like if
I wasn't sad, like he's going to experience something like
(10:10):
I want to experience that with him, okay, and like
I don't get to do that, maybe we will one day.
So also like I'm sad, but then hopeful that maybe
one day we'll take our own trip to Paris. And
then the saddest information though, because like what if I
was like, eh, neutral, like I don't care you're leaving
for a week. I'm good.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well you yeah, you would feel that about any trip, right,
not just Paris. It's just an extra.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It's extra because it's like where.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
You want to go, want to go? I really want
to ask a hypothetical question, but if it feels weird,
just let me know. Okay, if you were to one
day go on a honeymoon with anybody doesn't have to
do with your boyfriend. If you got to make that
decision on your own, where do you think you would go?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Good?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Would you go to Paris? Or do you think you
would do me?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I mean maybe, but it's feeling a little cliche for honeymoon. Yeah,
but okay, maybe it's just because I just watched the
Summer I Turn Pretty and cut that out, cut that out?
Just leep it wait did it?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I don't watch that.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I can up, I know, but everybody's watching it. It's
all the rage. I can't believe you're not No, you can't.
I cannot say, we cannot keep.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Doesn't just be he just beaped it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
We're still talking, Okay, he used to just put a
beep over what I said. The coast of Spain. Maybe
I would go. I've always wanted to go to Spain.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Okay, that felt like you just like picked a random thing.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
No, No, I've wanted to go to Spain like.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well, because my question is, are you the type of
person who wants on a honeymoon to just have like
a relaxing like time or do you want to go
on like a trip and like see things and experience
parts of the world. It could be both.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I want to be a little bit. I want to
relax and experience a little bit. No, I do not
need to be hitting up every museum and all the land. No,
So that that answers it. We're not going to Paris
because I do want to go to like the like
that would be great and see certain sites, and I
just don't think I want to be doing that on
my honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's how I felt. I was thinking about Hawaii, but
I feel like if I go to Hawaii, I want
to be doing activities the whole time and like traveling
different places. So we just went somewhere and I just
laid down for a week.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
See. Yeah, I could see myself like in some zero
horizon pool somewhere off the coast of somewhere, you know,
on a pool where there's like no infinity. Is that
not called a zero horizon pool?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It could be called both. There was an infinity pool
at where we went on our honeymoon.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, a zero horizon pool more commonly called an infinity pool.
So I'm just part of.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
The your special Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
It also could be called by some people a vanishing
edge pool. It creates the illusion that the water has
no edge, appearing to fall into the surrounding landscape or horizon.
That's me because I don't love the beach, like I
don't love sand and salt water, but I like the
sound of the ocean. You know, some pools are saltwater pools.
(13:05):
I can deal with the saltwater pool. I don't want
to be in the saltwater ocean with creatures. Yeah, and
the sand, so I can be in a pool. Correction,
it's not so much the salt water as it is
the creatures creatures in the sand. So, okay, take me
to the coast of Spain, just to the hotel pool.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You could probably go to a really nice resort in Spain, yeah,
or like a really nice resort in Grease. But then
my my thing is like if you go to a resort,
you don't really know where you are if you're not
going on like excursions. So save the Grease trip for
when you go to explore. Okay, so shall we go
to contempt.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So do you know what contempt means outside of this,
like outside of the four horsemen? I feel like I
don't use that word.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I don't really use that word here in court, contempt
of court and content of the same.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Can you look, because contempt essentially means like you believe
that there something's below you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
A contempt of court is an act of disobedience or
disrespect towards the judicial branch of the government or an
interference with its orderly process. It's an offense against a
court of justice or a person whom the judicial functions
of the sovereignty have been. Well, we just got a
little complicated with our words there, but.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That makes sense because that is aligned with.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Okay, well, so the exact definition, which you may have it,
you can read it, okay, the feeling that a person
or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving scorn.
Oh yeah, so that's just a sad.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well when you don't want your partner to feel that
way about you, nor do you want to feel that
way about your partner. And so that's why this is
the one that I think is the biggest predictor that
your relationship is not going to make it. If you're
seeing contempt in the relationship, you're not too far gone,
because there is the antidote, but you're pretty far You
(15:12):
really don't want to get to this point, and contempt
comes after criticism because it feels like it almost feels
like it's like if criticism is like sticking the knife
in somebody, contempt is twisting it. It's taking it a
step farther. You're not accidentally being mean to somebody. I
think sometimes when we're criticizing people, we don't mean to
be mean. We're struggling with kind of expressing ourselves. This
(15:36):
is like you are showing this person that they are
less than you. It includes in a relationship being disrespectful,
like just being disrespectful towards the person, which there's a
lot of ways that can actually look and mocking somebody
using sarcasm. I know we talked about that with last week.
This is not using sarcasm to be less vulnerable. It's
(15:58):
using sarcasm to like make somebody feel bad. What do
you think I feel like, You're like.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well, because I'm just imagining like being in this relationship,
and then I'm also evaluating my sarcasm and my relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
There is a fine line between sarcasm when we are
avoiding vulnerability or when we are avoiding confrontation. Even yeah,
like making a joke because there's fear somewhere around, like
really sharing how I'm feeling. Okay, this is sarcasm to
like put somebody down. Imagine a bullying school. They're making
(16:31):
fun of other people in front of a group of people,
and they're being sarcastic, like making fun of something you
did to hurt you.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Like with contempt. Now I'm aligning it with like just
like disgust.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, there is probably discust in that person because you
have to kind of have a level of disgust towards
this person to want to make them feel this way.
When you love somebody and care about somebody and respect somebody,
that's a huge part of this. The respect is gone.
You're not going to want to do this to somebody.
And if you did do this accidentally, you would feel
(17:04):
guilt because if I respect somebody, I'm not going to
want to also do this. I mean, there's like mimicking them,
like in a mean way. Sometimes Patrick will like mimic
the way I do something or a face that I
make being playful. This is mimicking you to make fun
of you, to make you hurt, and wanting that person
to know that they are less than huge part you
(17:25):
want that other person to feel bad. It's almost a
way of gaining control of the situation. You look scared.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I'm just thinking of people that might be in this
situation and how small you must feel if this is
how your partner treats you.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You know, yeah, I or.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Like how exhausting, And then that circles back to the
illness thing of like, yeah, you're so worn down that like,
no wonder you might get sick more.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah. My fear is people that are in a relationship
where one partner is very contemptuous of the other, is
that you do lose a you part of your self
esteem and self worth. So even the fighting back, you
might not even be as defensive because you've kind of
already been just like pushed down so far. I mean,
if we see somebody doing this, and it's kind of
(18:13):
my experience watching Couple's Therapy, I'm like in my head
yelling at the TV screen, being like, leave this person.
He is treating you terribly. They are not being kind
to you. You deserve better. Like in my head, I'm
just like, how could you stay after hearing this and
that person's experience that's in it, they're hearing through the
(18:35):
lens of well this is who I am. Now, like
I am this, I might not feel like I deserve better. Yeah,
So this is more so if you're seeing somebody that
you love in a relationship like this and you're just
wanting to yell at them and say like leave them,
or even if you're a helping professional and you want
to be like leave them, or you're getting frustrated with somebody.
(18:56):
From our perspective, it looks and feels very different than
the person who's in that relationship, and so it's very
helpful to offer extra grace and care and empathy to
that person versus judge them for staying in a relationship
like that. Obviously, if you have a strong self esteem
and self worth, you're not going to stay in a
(19:16):
relationship like that. If you have the ability to leave.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Is the person do you think? I mean, I'm sure
it's case my case, But like when the contempt shows
up or that contemptuous behavior, but similar to a narcissist,
which I'm not saying just because you're contemptious in a
relationship doesn't mean you're a narcissist, right, But like narcissists
have charming sides and they have like their love bombing
(19:41):
face and you can be very charismatic, like, when you're
in a contemptuous relationship, does that partner still offer like
lovey awesome moments?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think it depends, and you can be in a
relationship where that does happen, and that's even more confusing.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Right, Well, I was thinking, like it sucks you back
in and you're like, oh, look how they are and
like this is just.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, And I think when you're in a relationship like that,
it probably didn't start that way. So if you're struggling
with it, a lot of times you're having that rosy
retrospect where you're looking back and you're remembering the good
times and not seeing the stuff that might outweigh those
good times. So there's not one way this looks. So
to answer that question, yes, and not always. It depends, right,
(20:24):
And like I said earlier, this usually happens when a
couple has the ability to recover from this. It usually
did not start that way, and it usually builds out
of a continuation of not being able to share your
feelings and talk about things, and so you build these
(20:44):
feelings up and the person who's contemptuous might have created
a story in their head where you are what they're
saying because they have not expressed their needs to you,
and so they keep getting angry or keep getting frustrated,
or keep getting To use a very stakes example, like
imagine your job was to take out the trash and
(21:04):
you never did it, and ten years go by and
you still have not done it. But I have not
asked you to do it or reminded you. I'm just
resenting when resenting resenting you for ten years because you
can't take the trash out. So I'm building that story up. Yeah,
that scenario happens, But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Do you have like examples of things that they might say.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, I have ways of sounds. And before I get
to that, I want to make sure I say this
that one of the biggest issues with contempt I might
have said this already is once you get there, this
safety is lost. So without safety in a relationship, it's
essentially poisoned. If there's no safety in a relationship, you're
not going to come to somebody and be vulnerable, right,
(21:47):
and you're going to hide and you're going to run
away from those conversations, conversations that really need to be happening,
and even therapy can be scary because therapy is very vulnerable.
And so that's one thing that if you start to
see this, take it seriously from the very beginning, because
the more this builds, the less safety you have, and
then you're gonna have a less opportunity to have the
(22:09):
relationship you really want.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Can you clarify safety, because as like I'm hearing it
as Layman's person here over here, like I'm thinking, like,
are you not talking about physical safety? You're talking about
just like emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There's no emotional.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Can'ty vulnerable with this person anymore?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yes, because when you have relational safety within a person,
like I feel very emotionally safe with you. Earlier today
I walked in and I was not my best self.
I knew that I could do that in this space
because I know that there's not judgment and that our
relationship can still be good even if we have moments
(22:46):
where we're not our best. I cannot have it all together,
or I can like let true parts of like my
shadow side that I don't really want everybody to see
come out and there won't be this you won't use
that against me, right right? That's also why when we
have disagree we can talk to each other about them,
or if we're frustrated with each other, Like I know
if I do something that upsets you, well, I believe
(23:09):
this if I do, mostly because it's happened. For if
I do something that upsets you, I feel safe knowing
that you will come to me, because I think you
also know that I will be able to hear you.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, vice versa. Yes, because we have safety in our relationship. Okay,
and go to clarify. While that could be an issue
for some people specifically, what you're talking about when safety
is lost when this shows up is the real emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
But I would also say if there's physical abuse happening
in a relationship, they're probably is contempt there as welles Yeah,
but they're not like mutually losing. Okay, So what this
can sound like? So I'm just going to give you
some phrases that like this somebody who's being contemptuous. This
could be what they say calling somebody pathetic, like you're
so pathetic.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
They just feel like they someone has to be drunk
to say this or something thing, but I was wrong,
but you would think like out of their mind, like
someone you're telling me. Somebody sober could say that just
says to someone you're pathetic.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And that's very outright, Like you could even be more
kind of insidious with this, and it sound more like
why would you ever think that, Like if somebody's mess
something up, or let's say somebody missed something on a calendar,
it's not that hard to write things down your calendar,
but of course you did that. Of course that happened
(24:30):
to you, you know, putting somebody down. If somebody's expressing
they had a hard day, like the contempt could sound like, oh,
you think you've had a rough day, try and living
in my life for an hour, you would never last,
like making like you're so small and weak. So they're
saying your week without saying your week in that moment
where that person can also just say you're pathetic, you're
(24:54):
so selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself, Like sharing
with somebody that like you should be ashamed of yourself,
versus is like, oh, how are you holding up with that?
If we're feeling shame, Like it's okay to feel shame
and talk about that with your partner. And that's also
saying like it's not okay to mess up, because if
you messed up and you forgot something, I'm not coming
at you and saying you should be ashamed of yourself.
(25:15):
That's so embarrassing. Yeah, I'm like, oh that sucks. I'm
so sorry. The contempt sounds jarred because it is. It is.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, I guess you're right, you're like, this should be jarring.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. And if the other part with this too, and
that can be really tough from the recipient is when
you confront them about that, when they're like, well, that
was mean. They can use phrases like I'm just telling
you how it is. Well, if you can't handle the truth,
then don't ask those kinds of things where it sounds
like they're doing almost like you a favor or it's
your fault. So good times the good news.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, I want the antidote there is that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There is an antidote, and that's with everything. So if
you haven't listened to the other two episodes of The
Four Horsemen, they offer an antidote for each of the horsemen.
This one is actually, I think just something we should
be doing in general and all of our relationships and
just keeping in mind with all of our relationships it's
just building a culture of appreciation and respect. And then
(26:14):
there's two ways to do like two tips to do this.
There's probably way more, but I'm gonna give you two.
So the first one is just knowing that there is
a five two to one ratio. Did you know this ratio?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I know this from just from Gottman as well. Yeah,
the for every bad experience or negative encounter you have
in your relationship you need five positives to make up
for it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Is that it Yeah, that's a good job, and that
comes from their research. Is like, we hold on to
a negative comment or experience five times more than the positive,
and we can use that towards anything like think about
how if one person makes a negative comment about what
(27:10):
you look like, that holds way more weight than if
somebody says something possible about what you look like. We
just receive feedback differently positive and negative. I really wish
we could find a solution for that.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well, I was reading something the other day I cannot
remember where, so I'm going to paraphrase it. But back
when we were in survival mode, like I don't know,
Caveman type days, like negative experiences helped keep us alive,
so we remembered those more than a positive because if
(27:43):
you remember something that's a threat or negative, then you
know how to better be ready.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, that's probably part of it. I also think that
confirmation bias is there too, So if we have insecurities,
we look for evidence to prove that those things are
Like the little critic inside of our head is looking
for feedback to hold on to more than we're looking
for evidence against. So I think there's probably a lot
of things at play, including what you just said, that
add to why we hold onto these things heavier. So
(28:11):
because we can't change that, we can just snap our
fingers and carry the positive stuff more. What you do
is you just try to balance it out by saying
more positive things more often. Really, and also part of
this is noting those positive experiences. So for whatever reason
as well, we could have twenty things happen that go
(28:35):
great throughout our day, but we just think of them
as normal. That one negative thing we're going to clock right,
but we don't clock the positives as much. So part
of this exercise, I think, is going back through your
day almost like how you do like gratitude journaling. We
don't notice how much your gratitude how much gratitude you have.
Until you actually pay attention to it and write it down,
(28:56):
you don't notice how many positive things usually happen unless
you're paying attention to them.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, so when it came to contentious relationship, how does
the five to one work? Like the person that like say,
I say to you, we're having an argument or something,
and for a reason, I'm like, you're actually like a
child that's negative. So like then I realize, oh, wow,
I said that to you. Now I need to give
(29:23):
you some positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
No, may back up, because that's this is confusing.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I'm trying to make it confusing.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
No, No, this is I think that I'm glad you
pointed this out because I'm sure other people are thinking this.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
This is not are you saying I'm stupid. I'm just kidding.
I'm being contempious to myself.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
This is not to balance out the contemptuous behavior. Yes,
we're trying to get rid of that. When you can't
balance out contemptuous behavior, you don't want to be in that, Okay,
Because also that goes back to your point of you
go through those like the cycle of them being really
charming and kind and then they're mean you never want
to normally the contemptuous behavior. This is because a lot
(30:03):
of times you become contemptuous because you've forgotten what you
really care about these people, like what you like about
these people. This happens like usually a roads over time.
And so we're trying the gatmins are really in this,
trying to peel back and help you remember why you
really are in the relationship with this person, because there's
a reason you guys were together.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
We're trying to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
So the more I can compliment these people, the more
I can remind myself that this good experience happened or
something like that, the more I'm taken back to the
good memories and the good feelings I have towards this
person versus the negative.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Oh okay, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, this makes sense,
because I was like, Wow, the contemptuous person's gonna have
to realize they said something rude and then say five
nice things after. But I know it's not as simple
as that, So thank you for clarifying that. This is
more so yeah, getting back to the root of what
first drew you to this person and there, and there's
(31:01):
probably a lot of things there, but you don't focus
on them, because you just focus on the ones that
the things that are annoying you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, we can all look at moments less where we're
doing that for sure. And the other tip with this
antidote is just small things often, so it kind of
feeds off of that, is to note with your partner
small things because we hold on to big things, especially
positive like we remember when they bought us flowers, or
when they plan this trip or when they did this
(31:28):
thing that's like big and maybe not normal versus small things. Often,
can you point out the everyday things you like about somebody,
or the everyday things that made you feel appreciated or
that you had fun with or something like that. It
can be as simple as like notice that you you
love waking up next to your partner.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Or my boyfriend and I were driving the other day
and I just told him this today because we were
on the phone this afternoon and I think we were
talking about like our relationship of how it's evolved because
some conversation at dinner the other night the other night
with another couple and like courting and you know, guys
paying for things, and then like when does the girl
(32:09):
start sort of paying? And I don't know. I'm just
giving you a little bit of the backstory. Like we
were just talking about yeah, like or if you're going
on a trip, like who pays for what? And one
of the persons there was of the mindset that, like
the guy should just always pay for everything, like it
didn't matter. And my boyfriend I didn't necessarily agree with that,
but in the early dating, like for dinner and stuff,
(32:31):
it is nice for me and and even him like
he would want to pay. He's like, I don't. I
would never like first or second date be like you know,
but some people are just different.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's not like we're people would actually be offended by that.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, like they want to pay, like or they want
to go Dutch, or the women maybe want to feel independent.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So I'm not saying how we do is right, but
we are happened to be in alignment on that. And
so somehow the conversation evolved into like little things that
we do to show each other, like here, and I
was like, you know, the other day when we were
in the car and he was driving, and then he
had one hand on the wheel and then he came
over to my neck with his other hand and just
kind of like massage my shoulder and my neck a
(33:13):
little bit while we were driving down the road, and
I was like, I've thought about that multiple times since then,
and that was such a simple act, so easy, no money.
We felt what I felt cared for, just like how
they're trying to say women feel cared for if the
guy's pining for meal. Well, I felt cared for just
with the random shoulder massage while driving down the road,
(33:37):
like something about that I loved and I wanted to
make sure that I express that so that he'll do
it more.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, And I think often we assume that men don't
need as much affirmation as we do or as women do,
and they do. Like men want to be cared for too,
and want to be appreciated and want to be want
to feel secure as well, Like they don't just walk
(34:06):
around having all the confidence in the world all the time.
I think they feel pressure to do that or feel that.
So that makes a big difference. Like letting him know
that you felt good by such a small, tiny thing
that he did probably felt just as good as the
thing that he did to you. That makes sense. Yeah,
so there you have small thing, Yes, small things often
(34:30):
and that's something that you can just randomly do or
you can see you yeah, or you can that can
be a ritual. What you guys do as an exercise
if you're helping your relationship back on track, is like weekly,
do a check in and like talk about a couple
of things, or you could do this nightly, but that
just seems like a lot a couple of things that
(34:50):
maybe that person didn't know that they did that you
really appreciated, or something new that you learned that you
loved about them. Like I didn't think that I would
love watching my husband watch sports, but sometimes it's really
cute to watch them get so excited about something and
then I start appreciating that.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, I like that. It makes you think of the
three a's with my kids, the asking, affirming, and well,
what's the other A? Ask?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Affirm M Well, I when I was taught it was regrets, requests,
and affirmations. So I was one of them.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Was sorry, no ask. There was like asking for something
you need or want, but there's then there was also
is there anything I need to ask for forgiveness or
like that I've done that I need to know about,
And then there's affirming, but it wasn't ask ask affirms,
so what was the other a? It's like, ask why
(35:47):
is my brain doing this right now? Acknowledge no, ask
ask an affirm what are some other a's appreciation? Oh well,
my brain can't think of it right now. We'll get dang,
it's good. But that was what my therapist was. My
kids they were saying, do it as a nightly check in,
(36:09):
which for us as a family did get overwhelming, so
we kind of stopped, but it served for a season.
So affirm no because I.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Find like an acknowledge.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Maybe maybe it could be acknowledged.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Because when we do regrets, requests and affirmations, it's that
acknowledging could be the regret.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah it works for now. Okay, we'll take it because
it starts with an A and it fits. But really
it is just about also checking in, checking in, but
without a laundry list. So while every night seem overwhelming,
but you only got one, ask or what you can
be like, well, you did all of these things, and
I need you to feel bad about them all or
(36:54):
I need like for my kids, that's when they can say, hey,
I'm out of these socks, like they can make a note,
but you only ask for one thing per.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, I would say with if you're trying to pull
yourself out of a contemptuous relationship, to just stick with
the affirmations for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yeah, that's probably, But.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Once you graduate, then you can do the other things,
because not acknowledging those other things is what gets you
to be contemptuous too.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
And we can't even remember what the other things are.
So just affirm a firm affirm, affirm the three a's. Yeah,
keep it simple, m hm cool, kiss, Yeah, keep it simple, silly, silly,
because we don't want to say stupid yea, because that's
not contemptuous. Okay, Part three, Yeah, that's a wrap. So
(37:42):
next week we will be doing part four, which is
stoneballing stone walling.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, secret just like comes in from out of nowhere.
What stone walling. I just feel like it shows up
out of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I know of stone walling. It's quiet, okay, I know
of stone wall like from what I've seen from narcissist
type stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I really meant like it's quiet because it's literally yeah
what it is, shutting shutting down off.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah all right, Well we hope you have the day
you need to have. Bye bye,
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just wons Amy
and Cat, gotcha, Cob and locking a brother, ladies and fels,
you just follow Ann the spirit where it's on the
front real stuff to the chaill stuff and the.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
M but Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do
it just.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Stop you feel things.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is feeling things.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
With Amy and Cat.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling Things. I'm Amy and I'm
Cat and we are continuing our series on the Four
Horsemen from doctor John Gottman, and today's is a doozy.
We finally hit the one that will just send your
relationship down the drain down the toilet right like a
slow flush. And then one day you're just like.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Oh wow, I think the criticism is like the slow flush, this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Is the well, but how fast? I mean you might
live with it for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
This is like I'm just it's like Jarn, It's like
you feel it.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I saw if you stay in this one you get
sick more. I told Kat I didn't read in too
much on this one. Because we have a doc where
we build everything that Kat is the therapist, so she's
delivering this information to us and this is something that
you probably go over with clients and stuff or recommend
to them or recommend that they do more research themselves.
(01:25):
Because he has a book, right, he has a lot
of books. But he also I mean, is it specifically
for this or does he mention this.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
In This is just in his research information that you
can find. If anybody wants to know more and doesn't
want to read a book, you go to the Gotman
Institute's website. They have a blog, They have tons of articles.
They probably have ten articles just on contempt, which is
what we're talking about today, or just on the four horsemen.
(01:52):
So if you are interested or you just want to
read more, go there. That's a better place than just
googling or going on Wikipedia to learn because it's all
coming from his research. It's things that the Gotments have
put on there and people that work for them.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, and like by research, he was doing very intense
things with couples, like some even in his own home,
right or did I make that up? He might have
been doing that like therapy and like recording.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Then so he had the love lab. Is that what
you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, so his own home his lab whatever, But he
was monitoring people like filming them and watching their interactions.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like seeing how they were communicating.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Also, I didn't think about this, but if you if
you do a training with the Gotment Institute, you'll get
to see some of the recordings of therapy sessions and
sometimes you'll see them in like the waiting room and
stuff like that, and they'll talk you through those things.
Have you ever watched Couples Therapy?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Okay, it's I want to say, I don't know what
streaming service is on. It's not like a Netflix. It
might be HBO or something.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Less popular, but it's worth if they have a thirty
day trial, it's worth just doing that to watch the show.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Paramount Plus and Hulu.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh okay, Hulu. So it is the therapist on Their
name is doctor Orna, and she is incredible. When I
watch it, it feels like continuing education, but also it's entertaining.
It's a TV show, and I'm very weary of therapy
entertainment because I'm like, who would sign up to do
therapy on a TV show?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So who would That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I haven't actually done research on figuring the answer to that,
But my assumption is they're getting free therapy, and I'm
sure she's a pretty penny.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Right, So I'm willing to share all of my things
with the world in exchange for.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
This theory because maybe it will save my marriage or
save my relationship. And they do a great job of
having all different kinds of relationships on there, all different
types of people, all different types of religions, Like it
kind of does kind of check every box. But if
you read about and learn about these four horsemen and
then you watch the show, it would be a fun
exercise for somebody to go in and look at like
(04:02):
when you see each one, and there are some when
you watch the ones and you're like, that's contempt. Even
I'm like, there's no way, And part of me is
like I don't want this couple to make it because
they are both hurting each other so often and so harshly.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Do you think two contempt people end up together or
one is the contempt and then the other person turns
contempt both.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I don't think it's just as like you married a
contemptuous person. I think that a lot of times what
happens in relationships is things build and build and build,
and then you start building this resentment and then you
become contemptuous towards your partner. Now, if you're married to
somebody who is has a lot of traits of narcissism
or is diagnosed as a narcissist, then they're probably gonna
be contemptuous at times. But I don't think it's just
(04:48):
like you are this person most of the time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
You know, Nick Cannon, Ye, Maria carries, yeah baby daddy
and then a lot of other Yeah baby Ddy's mama's. Yeah,
he was the baby daddy to a lot of babies. Yeah,
not just Maria carry. But I didn't know if you
knew that he was recently on the Breakfast Club and
he shared with them that he was diagnosed with MPD.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
No way. Yeah, I saw something somewhere that he said,
and maybe it was from there he said he wasn't
treating people very well, so maybe he's trying to get.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, I mean that that was a couple of years
ago that you know, he did all the tests and
it's a lot of questions and intense therapy and filling
out questionnaires and whatnot that he realized he had narcissistic
personality disorder. And that so many times he thought that's
just the way things were, but he's realized he can't
(05:42):
be that way, so he's doing the work to try
not to be that way. And I'm like, wow, this
just seems like the opposite of everything we hear. Now.
I've heard from experts that there is a possibility that
there can be work done, but that person has to
be open to it, and most narcisses aren't going to
be open to testing for it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, that's true. And I also was going to say,
and this is me just saying this, that this can
also happen. Somebody who's diagnosed with that personality disorder can
also present like they are this person who's like, oh
my gosh, I don't want to be this way. I'm
going to change this. That's a way to manipulate people too,
but they really have no intention of doing that. They're
(06:23):
like to get ahead of it. Does that make sense
that Costs are very good actors, not.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So much with him, I guess. But I guess I
thought that if because they tend to be very manipulative
and good at it, that why wouldn't they Just with
all this information now that we have about narcissism and
how it's everywhere. You kind of like see people saying
certain things and you're like, well, if I just don't
say that or act this way, then I either will
(06:47):
not be perceived as narcissist or I kind of know
the right thing to say now and then people will
see me in a different way. That crossed my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, there's a specific couple on one of the season
where you have a couple's therapy, yes, where you can
tell that there's some narcissism afloat, and the way that
the doctor orner handles it is like so beautiful where
you're not just like calling somebody out, but she's just
(07:17):
kind of she was trying to understand this person, and
he kept being like no, no, no, no, like she
wouldn't allow her to like she probably was actually getting
it right, but he kept always having an excuse for something,
even if she was like parroting back what he said.
And so she just said to him, it feels like
it's really hard to get things right for you with you?
Is that true? And he was like, what are you
(07:38):
talking about? And she's like, well, it just feels like
I'm trying to understand you and it feels really hard
for me to understand you. Do you feel that? Do
you feel like it's hard for people to understand you?
And you can. I'm going to find the season and
come back and tell you, guys, because it was such
a like a caring, empathetic view of how it looks
like to be in relationship with these people, and you
(08:00):
have so much empathy for the part too, and also like, hello,
now you deserve better than this. Yeah, I mean you
were going to say what you saw on the dock
we trailed off.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Oh no, just like under contempt. Like I told you,
I just went in to put my funny story that
I just went in to put my feeling of the day,
and I was like, I really didn't read much about it.
I was like, but what's crazy to me is that
if someone's in in a contemptuous relationship, they are more
susceptible to illness, Like they get sick more because they're
weakened immune system. And then you're like, well, that's at
(08:31):
the top of the dock, and I was like, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
The first thing, yeah, which is that's funny.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, and it's also in fun it's like four times
thicker than I just.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Thought that was crazy too, and it's yeah, your immune
system gets weakened, because I mean that speaks to how
our mental health affects the wholeness of our health. If
I'm constantly being beaten down or having to feel like
I have defend myself all the time, I don't feel
safe in my closest relationship, your body's going to take
that on and then you're not gonna be able to
(09:02):
fight off actual things like the flu.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, wild, it is crazy. I'm going to do the
feeling of the day before we get into contempt.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I would love to.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm sad. I know it doesn't seem sad sad, but
I'm sad because my boyfriend left for Paris today without me.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
This is you know, that's like the one place you
want to go.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
It's on my list, It's on my bucket list. Yes,
And of course I could go with him if I
didn't have work. I mean he would be working, but
I could still. And apparently then when he left today
because he came by to get a folding bag and
he was like, I think my hotel room looks all
to the Eiffel Tower, And I was like cool, stop
and He's like I can bring you a sweatshirt, and
(09:43):
I was like, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, I mean I think I can get that here
in the mall. But the sad is giving me information though,
like I'm sad that I can't be there, but also
I'm thankful for my job, so it's like give take,
and then I guess it's good that I'm sad because
like I care about my relationship, you know, like if
I wasn't sad, like he's going to experience something like
(10:10):
I want to experience that with him, okay, and like
I don't get to do that, maybe we will one day.
So also like I'm sad, but then hopeful that maybe
one day we'll take our own trip to Paris. And
then the saddest information though, because like what if I
was like, eh, neutral, like I don't care you're leaving
for a week. I'm good.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well you yeah, you would feel that about any trip, right,
not just Paris. It's just an extra.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It's extra because it's like where.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
You want to go, want to go? I really want
to ask a hypothetical question, but if it feels weird,
just let me know. Okay, if you were to one
day go on a honeymoon with anybody doesn't have to
do with your boyfriend. If you got to make that
decision on your own, where do you think you would go?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Good?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Would you go to Paris? Or do you think you
would do me?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I mean maybe, but it's feeling a little cliche for honeymoon. Yeah,
but okay, maybe it's just because I just watched the
Summer I Turn Pretty and cut that out, cut that out?
Just leep it wait did it?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I don't watch that.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I can up, I know, but everybody's watching it. It's
all the rage. I can't believe you're not No, you can't.
I cannot say, we cannot keep.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Doesn't just be he just beaped it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
We're still talking, Okay, he used to just put a
beep over what I said. The coast of Spain. Maybe
I would go. I've always wanted to go to Spain.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Okay, that felt like you just like picked a random thing.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
No, No, I've wanted to go to Spain like.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well, because my question is, are you the type of
person who wants on a honeymoon to just have like
a relaxing like time or do you want to go
on like a trip and like see things and experience
parts of the world. It could be both.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I want to be a little bit. I want to
relax and experience a little bit. No, I do not
need to be hitting up every museum and all the land. No,
So that that answers it. We're not going to Paris
because I do want to go to like the like
that would be great and see certain sites, and I
just don't think I want to be doing that on
my honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's how I felt. I was thinking about Hawaii, but
I feel like if I go to Hawaii, I want
to be doing activities the whole time and like traveling
different places. So we just went somewhere and I just
laid down for a week.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
See. Yeah, I could see myself like in some zero
horizon pool somewhere off the coast of somewhere, you know,
on a pool where there's like no infinity. Is that
not called a zero horizon pool?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It could be called both. There was an infinity pool
at where we went on our honeymoon.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, a zero horizon pool more commonly called an infinity pool.
So I'm just part of.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
The your special Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
It also could be called by some people a vanishing
edge pool. It creates the illusion that the water has
no edge, appearing to fall into the surrounding landscape or horizon.
That's me because I don't love the beach, like I
don't love sand and salt water, but I like the
sound of the ocean. You know, some pools are saltwater pools.
(13:05):
I can deal with the saltwater pool. I don't want
to be in the saltwater ocean with creatures. Yeah, and
the sand, so I can be in a pool. Correction,
it's not so much the salt water as it is
the creatures creatures in the sand. So, okay, take me
to the coast of Spain, just to the hotel pool.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You could probably go to a really nice resort in Spain, yeah,
or like a really nice resort in Grease. But then
my my thing is like if you go to a resort,
you don't really know where you are if you're not
going on like excursions. So save the Grease trip for
when you go to explore. Okay, so shall we go
to contempt.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So do you know what contempt means outside of this,
like outside of the four horsemen? I feel like I
don't use that word.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I don't really use that word here in court, contempt
of court and content of the same.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Can you look, because contempt essentially means like you believe
that there something's below you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
A contempt of court is an act of disobedience or
disrespect towards the judicial branch of the government or an
interference with its orderly process. It's an offense against a
court of justice or a person whom the judicial functions
of the sovereignty have been. Well, we just got a
little complicated with our words there, but.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That makes sense because that is aligned with.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Okay, well, so the exact definition, which you may have it,
you can read it, okay, the feeling that a person
or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving scorn.
Oh yeah, so that's just a sad.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well when you don't want your partner to feel that
way about you, nor do you want to feel that
way about your partner. And so that's why this is
the one that I think is the biggest predictor that
your relationship is not going to make it. If you're
seeing contempt in the relationship, you're not too far gone,
because there is the antidote, but you're pretty far You
(15:12):
really don't want to get to this point, and contempt
comes after criticism because it feels like it almost feels
like it's like if criticism is like sticking the knife
in somebody, contempt is twisting it. It's taking it a
step farther. You're not accidentally being mean to somebody. I
think sometimes when we're criticizing people, we don't mean to
be mean. We're struggling with kind of expressing ourselves. This
(15:36):
is like you are showing this person that they are
less than you. It includes in a relationship being disrespectful,
like just being disrespectful towards the person, which there's a
lot of ways that can actually look and mocking somebody
using sarcasm. I know we talked about that with last week.
This is not using sarcasm to be less vulnerable. It's
(15:58):
using sarcasm to like make somebody feel bad. What do
you think I feel like, You're like.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well, because I'm just imagining like being in this relationship,
and then I'm also evaluating my sarcasm and my relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
There is a fine line between sarcasm when we are
avoiding vulnerability or when we are avoiding confrontation. Even yeah,
like making a joke because there's fear somewhere around, like
really sharing how I'm feeling. Okay, this is sarcasm to
like put somebody down. Imagine a bullying school. They're making
(16:31):
fun of other people in front of a group of people,
and they're being sarcastic, like making fun of something you
did to hurt you.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Like with contempt. Now I'm aligning it with like just
like disgust.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, there is probably discust in that person because you
have to kind of have a level of disgust towards
this person to want to make them feel this way.
When you love somebody and care about somebody and respect somebody,
that's a huge part of this. The respect is gone.
You're not going to want to do this to somebody.
And if you did do this accidentally, you would feel
(17:04):
guilt because if I respect somebody, I'm not going to
want to also do this. I mean, there's like mimicking them,
like in a mean way. Sometimes Patrick will like mimic
the way I do something or a face that I
make being playful. This is mimicking you to make fun
of you, to make you hurt, and wanting that person
to know that they are less than huge part you
(17:25):
want that other person to feel bad. It's almost a
way of gaining control of the situation. You look scared.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I'm just thinking of people that might be in this
situation and how small you must feel if this is
how your partner treats you.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You know, yeah, I or.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Like how exhausting, And then that circles back to the
illness thing of like, yeah, you're so worn down that like,
no wonder you might get sick more.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah. My fear is people that are in a relationship
where one partner is very contemptuous of the other, is
that you do lose a you part of your self
esteem and self worth. So even the fighting back, you
might not even be as defensive because you've kind of
already been just like pushed down so far. I mean,
if we see somebody doing this, and it's kind of
(18:13):
my experience watching Couple's Therapy, I'm like in my head
yelling at the TV screen, being like, leave this person.
He is treating you terribly. They are not being kind
to you. You deserve better. Like in my head, I'm
just like, how could you stay after hearing this and
that person's experience that's in it, they're hearing through the
(18:35):
lens of well this is who I am. Now, like
I am this, I might not feel like I deserve better. Yeah,
So this is more so if you're seeing somebody that
you love in a relationship like this and you're just
wanting to yell at them and say like leave them,
or even if you're a helping professional and you want
to be like leave them, or you're getting frustrated with somebody.
(18:56):
From our perspective, it looks and feels very different than
the person who's in that relationship, and so it's very
helpful to offer extra grace and care and empathy to
that person versus judge them for staying in a relationship
like that. Obviously, if you have a strong self esteem
and self worth, you're not going to stay in a
(19:16):
relationship like that. If you have the ability to leave.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Is the person do you think? I mean, I'm sure
it's case my case, But like when the contempt shows
up or that contemptuous behavior, but similar to a narcissist,
which I'm not saying just because you're contemptious in a
relationship doesn't mean you're a narcissist, right, But like narcissists
have charming sides and they have like their love bombing
(19:41):
face and you can be very charismatic, like, when you're
in a contemptuous relationship, does that partner still offer like
lovey awesome moments?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think it depends, and you can be in a
relationship where that does happen, and that's even more confusing.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Right, Well, I was thinking, like it sucks you back
in and you're like, oh, look how they are and
like this is just.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, And I think when you're in a relationship like that,
it probably didn't start that way. So if you're struggling
with it, a lot of times you're having that rosy
retrospect where you're looking back and you're remembering the good
times and not seeing the stuff that might outweigh those
good times. So there's not one way this looks. So
to answer that question, yes, and not always. It depends, right,
(20:24):
And like I said earlier, this usually happens when a
couple has the ability to recover from this. It usually
did not start that way, and it usually builds out
of a continuation of not being able to share your
feelings and talk about things, and so you build these
(20:44):
feelings up and the person who's contemptuous might have created
a story in their head where you are what they're
saying because they have not expressed their needs to you,
and so they keep getting angry or keep getting frustrated,
or keep getting To use a very stakes example, like
imagine your job was to take out the trash and
(21:04):
you never did it, and ten years go by and
you still have not done it. But I have not
asked you to do it or reminded you. I'm just
resenting when resenting resenting you for ten years because you
can't take the trash out. So I'm building that story up. Yeah,
that scenario happens, But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Do you have like examples of things that they might say.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, I have ways of sounds. And before I get
to that, I want to make sure I say this
that one of the biggest issues with contempt I might
have said this already is once you get there, this
safety is lost. So without safety in a relationship, it's
essentially poisoned. If there's no safety in a relationship, you're
not going to come to somebody and be vulnerable, right,
(21:47):
and you're going to hide and you're going to run
away from those conversations, conversations that really need to be happening,
and even therapy can be scary because therapy is very vulnerable.
And so that's one thing that if you start to
see this, take it seriously from the very beginning, because
the more this builds, the less safety you have, and
then you're gonna have a less opportunity to have the
(22:09):
relationship you really want.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Can you clarify safety, because as like I'm hearing it
as Layman's person here over here, like I'm thinking, like,
are you not talking about physical safety? You're talking about
just like emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There's no emotional.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Can'ty vulnerable with this person anymore?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yes, because when you have relational safety within a person,
like I feel very emotionally safe with you. Earlier today
I walked in and I was not my best self.
I knew that I could do that in this space
because I know that there's not judgment and that our
relationship can still be good even if we have moments
(22:46):
where we're not our best. I cannot have it all together,
or I can like let true parts of like my
shadow side that I don't really want everybody to see
come out and there won't be this you won't use
that against me, right right? That's also why when we
have disagree we can talk to each other about them,
or if we're frustrated with each other, Like I know
if I do something that upsets you, well, I believe
(23:09):
this if I do, mostly because it's happened. For if
I do something that upsets you, I feel safe knowing
that you will come to me, because I think you
also know that I will be able to hear you.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, vice versa. Yes, because we have safety in our relationship. Okay,
and go to clarify. While that could be an issue
for some people specifically, what you're talking about when safety
is lost when this shows up is the real emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
But I would also say if there's physical abuse happening
in a relationship, they're probably is contempt there as welles Yeah,
but they're not like mutually losing. Okay, So what this
can sound like? So I'm just going to give you
some phrases that like this somebody who's being contemptuous. This
could be what they say calling somebody pathetic, like you're
so pathetic.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
They just feel like they someone has to be drunk
to say this or something thing, but I was wrong,
but you would think like out of their mind, like
someone you're telling me. Somebody sober could say that just
says to someone you're pathetic.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And that's very outright, Like you could even be more
kind of insidious with this, and it sound more like
why would you ever think that, Like if somebody's mess
something up, or let's say somebody missed something on a calendar,
it's not that hard to write things down your calendar,
but of course you did that. Of course that happened
(24:30):
to you, you know, putting somebody down. If somebody's expressing
they had a hard day, like the contempt could sound like, oh,
you think you've had a rough day, try and living
in my life for an hour, you would never last,
like making like you're so small and weak. So they're
saying your week without saying your week in that moment
where that person can also just say you're pathetic, you're
(24:54):
so selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself, Like sharing
with somebody that like you should be ashamed of yourself,
versus is like, oh, how are you holding up with that?
If we're feeling shame, Like it's okay to feel shame
and talk about that with your partner. And that's also
saying like it's not okay to mess up, because if
you messed up and you forgot something, I'm not coming
at you and saying you should be ashamed of yourself.
(25:15):
That's so embarrassing. Yeah, I'm like, oh that sucks. I'm
so sorry. The contempt sounds jarred because it is. It is.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, I guess you're right, you're like, this should be jarring.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. And if the other part with this too, and
that can be really tough from the recipient is when
you confront them about that, when they're like, well, that
was mean. They can use phrases like I'm just telling
you how it is. Well, if you can't handle the truth,
then don't ask those kinds of things where it sounds
like they're doing almost like you a favor or it's
your fault. So good times the good news.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, I want the antidote there is that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There is an antidote, and that's with everything. So if
you haven't listened to the other two episodes of The
Four Horsemen, they offer an antidote for each of the horsemen.
This one is actually, I think just something we should
be doing in general and all of our relationships and
just keeping in mind with all of our relationships it's
just building a culture of appreciation and respect. And then
(26:14):
there's two ways to do like two tips to do this.
There's probably way more, but I'm gonna give you two.
So the first one is just knowing that there is
a five two to one ratio. Did you know this ratio?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I know this from just from Gottman as well. Yeah,
the for every bad experience or negative encounter you have
in your relationship you need five positives to make up
for it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Is that it Yeah, that's a good job, and that
comes from their research. Is like, we hold on to
a negative comment or experience five times more than the positive,
and we can use that towards anything like think about
how if one person makes a negative comment about what
(27:10):
you look like, that holds way more weight than if
somebody says something possible about what you look like. We
just receive feedback differently positive and negative. I really wish
we could find a solution for that.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Well, I was reading something the other day I cannot
remember where, so I'm going to paraphrase it. But back
when we were in survival mode, like I don't know,
Caveman type days, like negative experiences helped keep us alive,
so we remembered those more than a positive because if
(27:43):
you remember something that's a threat or negative, then you
know how to better be ready.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, that's probably part of it. I also think that
confirmation bias is there too, So if we have insecurities,
we look for evidence to prove that those things are
Like the little critic inside of our head is looking
for feedback to hold on to more than we're looking
for evidence against. So I think there's probably a lot
of things at play, including what you just said, that
add to why we hold onto these things heavier. So
(28:11):
because we can't change that, we can just snap our
fingers and carry the positive stuff more. What you do
is you just try to balance it out by saying
more positive things more often. Really, and also part of
this is noting those positive experiences. So for whatever reason
as well, we could have twenty things happen that go
(28:35):
great throughout our day, but we just think of them
as normal. That one negative thing we're going to clock right,
but we don't clock the positives as much. So part
of this exercise, I think, is going back through your
day almost like how you do like gratitude journaling. We
don't notice how much your gratitude how much gratitude you have.
Until you actually pay attention to it and write it down,
(28:56):
you don't notice how many positive things usually happen unless
you're paying attention to them.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, so when it came to contentious relationship, how does
the five to one work? Like the person that like say,
I say to you, we're having an argument or something,
and for a reason, I'm like, you're actually like a
child that's negative. So like then I realize, oh, wow,
I said that to you. Now I need to give
(29:23):
you some positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
No, may back up, because that's this is confusing.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I'm trying to make it confusing.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
No, No, this is I think that I'm glad you
pointed this out because I'm sure other people are thinking this.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
This is not are you saying I'm stupid. I'm just kidding.
I'm being contempious to myself.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
This is not to balance out the contemptuous behavior. Yes,
we're trying to get rid of that. When you can't
balance out contemptuous behavior, you don't want to be in that, Okay,
Because also that goes back to your point of you
go through those like the cycle of them being really
charming and kind and then they're mean you never want
to normally the contemptuous behavior. This is because a lot
(30:03):
of times you become contemptuous because you've forgotten what you
really care about these people, like what you like about
these people. This happens like usually a roads over time.
And so we're trying the gatmins are really in this,
trying to peel back and help you remember why you
really are in the relationship with this person, because there's
a reason you guys were together.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
We're trying to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
So the more I can compliment these people, the more
I can remind myself that this good experience happened or
something like that, the more I'm taken back to the
good memories and the good feelings I have towards this
person versus the negative.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Oh okay, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, this makes sense,
because I was like, Wow, the contemptuous person's gonna have
to realize they said something rude and then say five
nice things after. But I know it's not as simple
as that, So thank you for clarifying that. This is
more so yeah, getting back to the root of what
first drew you to this person and there, and there's
(31:01):
probably a lot of things there, but you don't focus
on them, because you just focus on the ones that
the things that are annoying you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, we can all look at moments less where we're
doing that for sure. And the other tip with this
antidote is just small things often, so it kind of
feeds off of that, is to note with your partner
small things because we hold on to big things, especially
positive like we remember when they bought us flowers, or
when they plan this trip or when they did this
(31:28):
thing that's like big and maybe not normal versus small things. Often,
can you point out the everyday things you like about somebody,
or the everyday things that made you feel appreciated or
that you had fun with or something like that. It
can be as simple as like notice that you you
love waking up next to your partner.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Or my boyfriend and I were driving the other day
and I just told him this today because we were
on the phone this afternoon and I think we were
talking about like our relationship of how it's evolved because
some conversation at dinner the other night the other night
with another couple and like courting and you know, guys
paying for things, and then like when does the girl
(32:09):
start sort of paying? And I don't know. I'm just
giving you a little bit of the backstory. Like we
were just talking about yeah, like or if you're going
on a trip, like who pays for what? And one
of the persons there was of the mindset that, like
the guy should just always pay for everything, like it
didn't matter. And my boyfriend I didn't necessarily agree with that,
but in the early dating, like for dinner and stuff,
(32:31):
it is nice for me and and even him like
he would want to pay. He's like, I don't. I
would never like first or second date be like you know,
but some people are just different.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's not like we're people would actually be offended by that.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, like they want to pay, like or they want
to go Dutch, or the women maybe want to feel independent.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So I'm not saying how we do is right, but
we are happened to be in alignment on that. And
so somehow the conversation evolved into like little things that
we do to show each other, like here, and I
was like, you know, the other day when we were
in the car and he was driving, and then he
had one hand on the wheel and then he came
over to my neck with his other hand and just
kind of like massage my shoulder and my neck a
(33:13):
little bit while we were driving down the road, and
I was like, I've thought about that multiple times since then,
and that was such a simple act, so easy, no money.
We felt what I felt cared for, just like how
they're trying to say women feel cared for if the
guy's pining for meal. Well, I felt cared for just
with the random shoulder massage while driving down the road,
(33:37):
like something about that I loved and I wanted to
make sure that I express that so that he'll do
it more.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, And I think often we assume that men don't
need as much affirmation as we do or as women do,
and they do. Like men want to be cared for too,
and want to be appreciated and want to be want
to feel secure as well, Like they don't just walk
(34:06):
around having all the confidence in the world all the time.
I think they feel pressure to do that or feel that.
So that makes a big difference. Like letting him know
that you felt good by such a small, tiny thing
that he did probably felt just as good as the
thing that he did to you. That makes sense. Yeah,
so there you have small thing, Yes, small things often
(34:30):
and that's something that you can just randomly do or
you can see you yeah, or you can that can
be a ritual. What you guys do as an exercise
if you're helping your relationship back on track, is like weekly,
do a check in and like talk about a couple
of things, or you could do this nightly, but that
just seems like a lot a couple of things that
(34:50):
maybe that person didn't know that they did that you
really appreciated, or something new that you learned that you
loved about them. Like I didn't think that I would
love watching my husband watch sports, but sometimes it's really
cute to watch them get so excited about something and
then I start appreciating that.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, I like that. It makes you think of the
three a's with my kids, the asking, affirming, and well,
what's the other A? Ask?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Affirm M Well, I when I was taught it was regrets, requests,
and affirmations. So I was one of them.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Was sorry, no ask. There was like asking for something
you need or want, but there's then there was also
is there anything I need to ask for forgiveness or
like that I've done that I need to know about,
And then there's affirming, but it wasn't ask ask affirms,
so what was the other a? It's like, ask why
(35:47):
is my brain doing this right now? Acknowledge no, ask
ask an affirm what are some other a's appreciation? Oh well,
my brain can't think of it right now. We'll get dang,
it's good. But that was what my therapist was. My
kids they were saying, do it as a nightly check in,
(36:09):
which for us as a family did get overwhelming, so
we kind of stopped, but it served for a season.
So affirm no because I.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Find like an acknowledge.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Maybe maybe it could be acknowledged.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Because when we do regrets, requests and affirmations, it's that
acknowledging could be the regret.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah it works for now. Okay, we'll take it because
it starts with an A and it fits. But really
it is just about also checking in, checking in, but
without a laundry list. So while every night seem overwhelming,
but you only got one, ask or what you can
be like, well, you did all of these things, and
I need you to feel bad about them all or
(36:54):
I need like for my kids, that's when they can say, hey,
I'm out of these socks, like they can make a note,
but you only ask for one thing per.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, I would say with if you're trying to pull
yourself out of a contemptuous relationship, to just stick with
the affirmations for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yeah, that's probably, But.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Once you graduate, then you can do the other things,
because not acknowledging those other things is what gets you
to be contemptuous too.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
And we can't even remember what the other things are.
So just affirm a firm affirm, affirm the three a's. Yeah,
keep it simple, m hm cool, kiss, Yeah, keep it simple, silly, silly,
because we don't want to say stupid yea, because that's
not contemptuous. Okay, Part three, Yeah, that's a wrap. So
(37:42):
next week we will be doing part four, which is
stoneballing stone walling.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, secret just like comes in from out of nowhere.
What stone walling. I just feel like it shows up
out of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I know of stone walling. It's quiet, okay, I know
of stone wall like from what I've seen from narcissist
type stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I really meant like it's quiet because it's literally yeah
what it is, shutting shutting down off.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah all right, Well we hope you have the day
you need to have. Bye bye,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.