October 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Amy and Kat dive into the final of the Four Horsemen…stonewalling. From why it happens to how to break the pattern, they explore the freeze response, self-soothing, and the difference between stonewalling and the silent treatment. They also share lighthearted conversation starters you can bring to your next date night or friend hang to keep connection fun and alive.
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HOSTS:
Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
Kat Van Buren // threecordstherapy.com // @KatVanburen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
and Cat got your cob and like a brother, Ladies
and folks, do you just follow an the spirit where
it's all the front over real stuff to the chill
stuff and him.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
But Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do it just.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Stop you feel things. This is feeling things.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
With Amy and Cat. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things.
I'm Amy and I'm Cat, and here we are. It
is the final horseman. I don't know why every time
I tell you when we talk about this, like they
see them riding in on their horses. Because today's worse
is stonewalling.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
And he's riding in. I'm saying a word.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
No, he's just and it doesn't have to be a heat.
Women can stonewall.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yeah, Cat most likely is a heat.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Well, but you told me that you stone wall and
I was a little bit shocked, but you were saying
you were, Like, it's kind of crazy because doctor Cotman
says that what percentage of men do this?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, stonewallers are eighty percent male? Okay from his resting, Yeah,
but doesn't mean that obviously twenty percent and that statistic
I think might waiver a little bit, but it shocks you.
Because I'm a girl, or because you know me.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I have not experienced stone walling from you. So I
don't know if this is something you reserve just for
your man, you know, inside special for him, just something
you like to do to your lover. Yeah, so we'll
get into stone walling. But before we do that, you've
got our feeling of the day, or your feeling.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Of the day. I guess it could be yours. You
can well, seemsis.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
What you're feeling.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I'll tell you I'm feeling playful.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I could get on board with that, and I need
you to.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Get on board with that because I have an activity
for us.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh yeah, So the gift of your playfulness is that
we have an activity.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yes, and every everybody can participate. Okay, this is going
to be a gift to you because you can take
this out into the world with you. So I was
just scrolling Instagram one day, and I think because we
talk about conversation cards a lot, maybe I get sometimes
these reels or things that are just like questions to
ask your partner or anybody. I think this comes from
(02:19):
Flamingo app reels. Is the Instagram account. If you go
to their account, there's tons of different options of this.
But I was scrolling one day and I was about
to go. Me and Patrick, we're going to dinner that night.
So I saved it and we did it as an
activity for dinner. And it was just seven fun, ridiculous
questions to ask your partner. But we did them, and
(02:39):
I was like, you could do this with you could
It doesn't have to be your partner. Some of them
it would be.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Kind of weird to give your prodcast partner.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yes, sometimes you have to think. So I don't want
you to feel pressure to like rapid fire answer these,
but I thought we could do them together.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, so you're going to answer them as well.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, but it's kind of cheating because I've had time
to think about it. It's fine, okay, and I'm going
to share something that kind of has to do a
stonewalling in one of Patrick's answers.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, you know what I was thinking, If like, you're
feeling playful and you don't lean into it, you miss
out on fun stuff like this.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, what if you were like, I don't feel like
it and then not just you miss out everybody misses.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Out right, like when you don't pay attention to your playfulness.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
But sometimes you're not feeling it. So I get that too, Right,
If you need time for one of these questions, you
can say past and we'll come back to it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
If I disappeared for twenty four hours, where's the first
place you would look for me?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, so you're not at your house, obviously Kat's missing,
is okay, I would check your parents' house.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Am I? There a lot you're thinking like really logically okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, but you're not at your office probably Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Where I think the point of this question.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Is, am I not being playful?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I think you're trying to solve a crime right now? Okay,
it's hypothetical. Okay. Patrick said he would look for me
in the bed because I always want to go to bed. Yeah,
I'm in the bed at eight o'clock at night. He
was like, you'll be in that. I said, for you,
you'd be on a walk me. Yeah, for me, okay,
I would look for you at the place that you
walk that. I don't want to say out out because.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
There all the time. Yeah, okay, yeah that's good, all right,
I get help. So i'd look for you in bed.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Are you having fun?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I yes, I guess now that I get the idea
of it. I would say that there's but y'all moved,
so this wouldn't be you anymore. But if y'all still
lived kind of in the area that you lived in, well,
I would look for you maybe somewhere one of those
places near there where you can like go and drink
and play games.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Okay, okay, that's a really good answer.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, like card games and stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Okay, So at any bars there's like food and stuff
to you. Okay, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Know there's like sports on during the day.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, okay, that's because you're have a drinking problem.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I wasn't thinking that, but okay, okay, I get it.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We might have a new listener and that's like at
the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, and most of the time when I'm at the bar,
I'm playing cards. Okay. Number two, If I got arrested,
what crime would you assume I committed? I can answer first.
You go first, I said, accidentally stealing something if you
didn't ring it up at a self checkout. And my
reason is you are very lawful. I don't know if
(05:25):
that's right word, but you follow the law I think
you're like me and that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
If I'm driving with an expired license right now, so
I would probably go to jail for that. Okay, Like,
I'm way expired, so.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
You don't have a real I D No, So I
guess you're using your passport.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
To foow Like I'm so expired that I am going
to have to take the driver's test to get my license.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
No, no, no, yeah, how expired? Is that?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It's expired enough? Like a few months? Oh, okay, February
you read I get that it expired in February, but
my even just okay, now I'm clarifying, clarifying it expires
and then you have some time to renew it without
having to take the test. And yes, and I that's
(06:12):
what I'm saying. I've just missed. I'm not that far
out from my period where I have to take the test.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You have to get in the car with a stranger
and do like.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Oh, I think it's a written test. I don't think I.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Have to do the what do you mean a written test?
I have to do the.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Written test, not a test test. Okay, Or if I
do that, that's fine, I'll be good. Oh wow, Yeah,
that doesn't scare me.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I was so nervous about my driving test. My mom
had to you know, most kids are like when they
turned sixteen, they're like, Mom, let's go. My mom had
to like surprise me one day and be like, we're
going to take the driver's test because I wouldn't do it,
so I probably would just be like I can't drive anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
So I'm thinking, like there was injustice somewhere and you, like,
I don't know, you did something to try to right
or wrong and ended up in jail. Okay, Like I
don't know if you're protesting something or like you feel
that's like obviously you can legally protest, but something goes
terribly wrong and you end up in jail for it.
(07:12):
It's it's a huge misunderstanding. But you were just trying,
like to help to help. Okay, that ended up in
jail because you like for there to be justice.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, Okay, When I'm mad, which cartoon character do I act?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Most?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Can you go first?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Okay? This was hard. I had to literally google what
are cartoon characters that get mad? And this one didn't
come up in that, but I did see it and
reminded me of you. I'm gonna say Mulan. The reason
is one, I just really like Mulan, but when she
gets mad, she uses that to like to do something
good and like drive her. I feel like when you
(07:51):
get mad, you get like, oh, I'm gonna do this
anyway or not like break the law, but I'm gonna
like I'm gonna prove them wrong or I'm gonna fight
for myself. And I feel like that's.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Move on, and that's okay. I've never I have a confession,
I've not ever seen that.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Wait, you're not familiar with this show.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I know Mulan, but I have never seen it.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Let's get down to business. No the huns, Oh, Christiana
Agulre that I see dare range straight backget and me
Houston's gun, I take this out. Don't go like that.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
You're just saying that's leave it in. That was cute.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh my gosh, that was my favorite Disney movie. Okay,
that is homework. You've got to watch it.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Are you kidding me? I've asigned Pretty Woman to you
like five hundred times and you've never watched.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Okay, I'll do it.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Okay, fine, you watch pretty Woman.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Watch in two weeks. You two weeks.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
We have two weeks to watch it because you got
to focus on your driving test first.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, okay, you can take time to think about that,
but I will tell you Patrick's answer. Okay, he said,
which I thought was so creative of him. He also
watched a lot of cartoons growing up, he said, Tom
and Jerry because you get really quiet when you get mad,
which stonewalling. When I get upset, I get become very quiet,
and Tom and Jerry is silent. I think was this
(09:11):
point in that Okay, So I was like Patrick, that
was very introspective.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I don't really know, and you know me so well.
I mean, I'm trying to think of like cartoon characters
and I don't.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I don't know the one that's okay. I took a
lot of time for that one. So we can. I'll
give you a pass.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I'll just I second what Patrick said.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Okay, number four, if we swap lives for a day,
what's the first thing you'd struggle with?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Oh okay, Oh, I just thought of something can't say.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, you can say that, No, you can say that,
just don't say what it is. You can just say
something that I can't say, Well, something.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
That I can't say. But that's not very fun for
our listener.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's just very true. And we're being playful.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, we're being playful. So something we can talk about
one day. We're not trying to be total secret, but
it would be that. And then well, I was gonna say,
your job, like being a therapist and having the like,
I think you'd like give people advice, but I think
i'd kind of like it, like it. But then what
if I mess up and I give them the wrong advice?
That would be bad.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, you're not really giving people advice.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
That's true. They have to come up with their own conclusion. Yeah,
I know, but if I guide them or do say
something wrong, like I would just feel very stressed about
that or like taking on all of their emotions and
things they have going on, Like that's gotta be a
lot for you and all the therapists out there to
shout out, Oh, all the different home cooked meals that
(10:33):
you do stressful because y'all are like, yay, we're going
to do homemade pasta tonight, which would be on Saturday. Yeah,
which isn't that hard because you taught me on one
of our cooking episodes. But y'all tackle and take on
new little things.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Like that, I said, managing the balance between managing your
kids and your work and like making everything happen nails.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
If I were you, i'd be nervous.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
About keeping up with noise. Yeah, they're breaking right now. Okay.
If you saw me yelling at somebody in the street,
what do you think I'd be losing my cool over?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Okay, what'd you?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
This is why that I thought that you're a legal
one was interesting because I feel like you'd be like
sticking up for somebody, and you'd be yelling at somebody
else because like somebody did something to somebody else, so
you wouldn't even be involved. Like let's say, like somebody
hit somebody else's car and then try to run away.
You'd be like, hey, you get back here, you hit
their car or something like that. Or if somebody was
(11:41):
like mean to kids, you'd be like careful.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
As long as I knew they weren't going to retaliate,
then I probably would do it. But my kids bikes
were stolen once and I ran into the kids at
the park and I went after them and I was like, hey,
those are I mean it was my kid's bikes. Like
Stevenson had this he was like seven, had this tiny
bike there was red with like fireflames on it, and
this like fourteen year old kid was on this tiny
(12:06):
bike you give it. The person next to him was
on Stashiro's kind of girly bike, and they had been
stolen out of our garage like a week or two before.
And it was the Nashville Marathon and we were down
at a park watching because like Mike d from the
Bobby Bone Show was racing, and so we went to
watch him. And it was me and my husband at
the time and the kids, and there was tons of
people around, so I think that's why I wasn't scared
(12:27):
to go up to them. And I went up and
I said, where did you get those bikes? And they
knew they were busted and they were like, oh, they
we got them from our cousin or something. And I'm like, mmm,
but you know those aren't your bikes, right, because like,
look like you'll are teenage boys and these this is
a Do you see that little boy and that little
girl over there? Those are their bikes? And I think
(12:49):
you know exactly where they came from and you yes,
And then and I said, and I think the right
thing to do would be to give them back. They
want their bikes, like they would have ridden their bikes
down here to watch this race. But we walked.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
They went in your garage and.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
They stole them. Those when we lived in East Nashville
and our garage was in an alley. I mean we
probably had the garage door open open maybe or something,
but during the day, I don't know. I just know
that the bikes were missing. And then saw them at
the park and went up to them. But then a
police officer And maybe this is what also made my
fear of retaliation heightened because I was able to do
at the time. But there was, like I said, as
(13:23):
a marathon, there was tons of people around, but a
police officer was doing traffic when we were walking back,
like he was helping escort cars. And I stopped him
and I said hey, And then he looked at me
and he was like, wait a second, are you Amy
from the Bobby Bone Show? And I said yes, and
I said thank you for being a listener, Like this
makes me feel better about telling you the story. But
(13:43):
I just saw these two kids and they were on
my kids bikes, and I went up to them and said,
you need to give them back, and they were stolen
from our garage a couple weeks ago, and he said, well,
I think that's great that you got the bikes back.
He's like, we've had to up the number of police
in this area because of juvenile crime and other activity
(14:05):
where they could be armed and dangerous. And so he's like,
while it worked out for you, I would highly recommend
never going up to these kids, even though they look
like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, they could be carrying a weapon
and decide to pull it on. He's like, I'm just
letting you know that we have upped our police presence
over here specifically because of that, So don't be so
(14:27):
quick to go up to these kids and demand your
bike's back. And I was like, oh, yes, sir, no problem.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Good to know.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And so that was probably two thousand, eighteen twenty nineteen
or something. But I do have this major fear of retaliation. Well, yeah,
only get involved. There's something I heard about someone in
town that did something really shady recently. They're kind of
well known. I don't want to say exactly because I
don't know how public all the details are, but I
(14:55):
will say that I have played over in my mind
probably about five times were to ever run into them,
like just being like you're not a good person. Like
that's how passionately I felt about it. My boyfriend told
me I was overacting a little bit, and I said,
I don't think I am.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
But you're you're worried about them retaliating.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, I don't think he would retaliate. That's why I
feel okay, being like, oh okay, but I don't think
I would actually ever say that to someone anyways, but
I pictured myself.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Doing bea I imagine that icky to me, Like what
he did is so icky and doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It's such a power trip. It's like using your power,
money and influence to like where it doesn't belong.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I'd like wait to hear about this.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Like it's total butt head move just because you have
money and power that impacts someone's life in their livelihood,
but because you disagreed with something like it shouldn't it's
sort of political, but it shouldn't have gotten in the
way of anything. And it just really made me bummed
because like do better, like we need to be we
(15:57):
need to do better, like you have children, Like why
it just made.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Me okay, so you would go that's what. Yeah, I
would find you in the parking lot doing maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
If I see him the picture me running into that
guy and being better. Hey yeah, No, it's more like
I don't even think I would be like super judgy.
I would just be like confused, like seriously, where did
this go wrong? When did you become the person?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Help me understand?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, help me understand, because like this okay not cool?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So there you have it. This game is long. Uh
you're not having some place sorr SB.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
We have two more and they're very quick. Wait, oh
my gosh, I have to say this. You just said
that's not cool on my thing. I said, I would
see you talking to somebody saying, hey, that's not cool.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You quoted me. Okay, see, but I don't know if
I answered, but I think that that's what you would
be doing too.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Remember that one time I got in the fight with
the lady in the parking lot and you were like,
don't do that, Catherine. She could have a gun on her, yes,
I like, what is it called when you like steak out?
I wouldn't move because she was trying to steal my
parking spot and she was trying to make me move,
and she was pretending like she was gonna hit my
car and I was like, hit it. And then you
were like, Heather, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
No, she could have a gun.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Okay. Anyway, if we were in a zombie apocalypse, would
I be the comic relief group leader or the one
who screams first?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Comic relief group leader or the one that screams first?
No offense, but I don't see you leading us. You
probably would be the comedic relief or what's the next one?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
The one who screams first.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, you're screaming. You're screaming first.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was thinking you would be the comic relief.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, I'm not the leader either, Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
And the last one. If I had a fan club,
what would they call themselves? Yours is easy, Oh, the
kitty Cats? Yeah, and then yours would be the Brownies.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Oh cute?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, Okay, that's it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Fun game. Fun game.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
To bring us to a not so fun topic, stone
Wall stonewalling, So quick recap. We're on the fourth horsemen.
We've had three. So first one was first one.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Was criticism, and the antidote to that was to not
criticize the gentle startup.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
The second one was sorry, I feel like I'm giving
you a pop quart I'll help you.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
The second one was defensiveness, and the antidote was.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Don't be so defensive.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
To accept responsibility. And the third one was contempt and
the antidote was.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I'm just you see with all three of them, I'm
just like repeating it back.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, it's the foster culture of appreciation. Yes, that's right,
that's a hard one. And then the fourth one is
stone walling. Stonewalling. Okay, we already said stonewalling. These are
just some fun facts. Eighty percent of the time it's men.
And I actually want to ask you this before I
give you any information, because I think this one is
(19:01):
very it's confused. So when you think of stonewalling, you've
heard of this word before. What do you think stonewalling is?
And why do you think people do it?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Silent treatment? Okay, how I picture it? And I think
they do it because that's their way of controlling the situation.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So it's like this like active, very much manipulative. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
My experience with people that give the silent treatment or
when I have is like you send the other person
into this, like what have I done? Panic, or they
may try to start fixing it and then you feel like, oh,
I have all this control. Look they're wanting to talk
to me about I'm just gonna, okay, keep not talking
about I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I think people do that. But when we're talking about
stonewalling here, it comes last, and it's usually talked about
last because it usually comes after a buildup of emotion
and it happens when you feel overwhelmed and this flooding
experience happens. And one of the predict four stonewalling is
just a high heart rate, like over one hundred. So
(20:04):
it's not so much this act of choice that like
I'm going to stop talking to manipulate you. It oftentimes
is more a reaction to sometimes unconscious or subconscious I'm
going to not say anything because I don't know what
to say, or because I think I'm making it worse
and if I just am quiet, then maybe things will
(20:27):
get better. And what happens a lot of times is
that makes you believe it more mad. So I'm silent
towards you. That escalates you right versus calms you down right. Yes, okay,
so this happens when somebody gets flooded So after you've
been in a conflict and you're feeling flooded, then you
(20:49):
kind of have this reaction to you don't know what
to do. It's like physiologically, you're in this fight or flight.
When you're in fight or flight, what happens to you?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, I'm much more reacting. I mean it depends. Yeah,
but I'm not thinking logically and I not very rational.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah. Well, because a part of your brain is shut off.
So like the logical part of your brain is not working.
It's thinking survival, how do I survive? And when you're
in actual danger, that's really helpful because it will help
you get to wherever you need to go, whether you
need to run, whether you need to freeze and play dead,
whether whatever. But in this scenario, you're not actually in
physical danger, so your body is setting you sensations that
(21:29):
aren't actually matching up with the reality of your physical safety.
But when we are feeling flooded, we can't think and
have a rational conversation. Therefore the next logical that's not
logical step is I'm just gonna shut down. Okay, So
that is what stonewalling is versus silent treatment. When I
think of silent treatment. I think of what you were
(21:53):
saying where I am just I mean, I honestly think
of myself when I was like in middle school. I
don't know what our friend group's deal was, and maybe
it was just me. But I love to get mad
at somebody and then be like, I'm not talking to
so and so, and then two weeks would go by
and I would just ignore them, and then I would
forget why I was mad. That's just manipulating, because maybe
(22:16):
if I stopped talking to you, you'll apologize for what
you did, but then at the end of the day,
I don't even remember.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, so, how do you know the difference of someone
as stonewalling or silent treatment ing?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
You mean, like, how do I know as the person
that it's happening to you? Yes, So I think in
these scenarios it's just good to know this because it
happens at the point of like we've gone too far.
This isn't just like something happens, you say something and
then all of a sudden, I just like decide to
give you the silent treatment. This is happening in an
(22:49):
argument that we're having, or a conflict that we're having,
and then I end up shutting down, and you might
not always know, but you can always check in, like, hey,
are you feeling overwhelmed? And a lot of times this happens,
people will busy themselves, so I won't even be meaning
to just not talk, but we'll be having an argument
and all of a sudden, I'll start doing the dishes and
(23:10):
you know what I mean, and it will look like
I'm not paying attention to you. But really I'm overwhelmed
and I need some kind of escape and I don't
know how to ask for it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
So out of all four of these, this one I
feel like I'm having. I'm actually having like compassion for
Maybe I should have it for all of them. I'm
not sure, because everybody has their own things. But this one,
now I'm starting to feel like, oh, like if someone
is stone walling, I'm less like I want to know
(23:38):
more of Like what happened.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
To you that's making to you shut down?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, but like surely maybe something happened to make you
become a stonewaller or is that the natural?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Both? Okay, I think it can be both. I I
was telling you earlier, I was in a because again,
you wouldn't assume that I would be prone to this behavior,
but I am.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I was shocked to hear you say that you're a
still Muller and that Patrick made you the cartoon character
and goes silent.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So in a previous relationship, something that would happen is
we would get in these arguments and I would feel
very confused, and I eventually realized that, like, if I
agree with this person, I'm still getting yelled at. If
I stand up for myself and I disagree, like I'm
getting yelled at. And so I felt stuck and I
would literally feel like I'm trapped, like I don't know
(24:39):
how to get out of this. I want to just
shut down. So I would just stop talking and then
that would piss them off even more. But I learned
to do that because I became so over there was
nowhere else for me to go. I had no options,
and so that was not like a healthy behavior for
me to do. But when you're in an unhealthy relationship,
there's no coping. Yes, if the other person isn't willing
(25:02):
to like hear you out on that, then you don't
really have anywhere to go other than like, let's get
out of the relationship. So now I'm in a healthy relationship.
I still know that I get kind of flustered in
some of those conflict moments that we have, or I
know that i've I've it takes me longer to figure
out what I want to say sometimes in high conflict
(25:22):
situations in our relationship. So rather than shut down because
that's became like just part of what I did a habit,
I will say I need a second. I will say, hey,
I'm not not talking to you. I'm going to respond
to what you just said. I need a second to
think about what I want to say and how I want.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
To say it.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So is that the antidote pausing? So the antidote pause pause, pause,
post pun. The antidote actually is pascas.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
The antidote is to self soothe, So it's to essentially
take a break and self soothe. And so what I
was doing wasn't exactly the antidote, but it's I mean,
in tandem with it, or like I need space and time,
and that's really just me communicating with my partner. Hey,
I'm still here in this conversation. So with the antidote
(26:10):
self soothe, what is really recommended to do is let's
take a break. So you say if we're in this
conflict and I notice that I want to shut down. Hey,
I'm noticing that I'm getting really overwhelmed, and I really
want to talk about this and I want to figure
this out. So the best thing for me would be
to take a break, calm down, and then let's come
back in twenty minutes and finish this conversation. And then
(26:33):
if the person says, I don't, I'm not taking a break.
We're figuring this out now, you can still take the break.
I would say, they're on their own horse.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
It's just different.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, you can still say, well, you know, I need
the break, so I'm going to still go and I'm
going to go fold the laundry upstairs, and I'll all
me eat back down here. And then they're kind of
forced to take that and hopefully they do self sooth
and then you just go do something. It could be anything.
It could be just going and doing breathing exercises. It
can be just walk taking a little while. It could
(27:00):
be listening to a calming song. It could be your
ice roller. It could be folding the laundry or cleaning something,
but anything that helps regulate you, because in that moment,
there's that feeling of deep overwhelmed, trapped, panic, and you're
never going to solve a problem well when those things
(27:21):
are involved.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, okay, I I guess for the longest time, if
I had heard stone Walling, which I never have, done
a deep dive into the Four Horsemen, so I've learned
a lot. But stone Walling I always thought was literally
just silent treatment. It was more of, like you said,
a manipulative tactic and it's not at all like you're
(27:46):
when you're doing That's what That's probably why I was
so shocked that you reacted that way, because I'm like, what, Yeah,
it's more Yeah, you're explaining it makes sense that you
do that.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I mean, but if you do any of these things,
don't be too hard on yourself. There is a way out,
and that's why we're talking about them. There is something
else you can do. And like any feeling, if I'm
using these behaviors, that means that there's a need that's
not being met.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, And if you haven't listened to the other four
episodes the Little Pop Quiz recap, we gave a minute
ago of the you know Horsemen and the antidote that
was not fully like go listen to the episodes because
you'll hear more inside, or go to the Gotman Institute's website.
There's so many resources there, because I do see how
it would be so helpful to know, like how you
(28:35):
show up in your relationship and how your partner's showing
up if y'all are riding in on these horses at
any time.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, and if you notice yourself, if you don't normally
act like this in conflict, and you notice yourself using
one of these communication strategies, that's a signal or a
sign for you that like, hey, something's up, Like it
might not be about the relationship. It might really just
be about me. If I'm really overwhelmed in general in
my life or in any other area, and then I
(29:02):
come and we have some kind of conflict and I
already feel like I'm up here, I might stonewall just
because I've shut down because other things are in the way.
So it doesn't always mean there's something wrong with your
relationship that needs to be fixed or repaired. It sometimes
can be like there's something that I need, and I'm
bringing this into our relationship and I don't want to
do that. Good point, So this one's pretty simple, but stonewalling.
(29:27):
We don't want to do it, sometimes it happens. Thank you, John.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Gotman, Thank you John Gotman for the Four Horsemen. I'm
trying to think of, like, you know, entering about a
year into my relationship, like being in a less chaotic
type relationship, Like how we go over this stuff? How
(29:51):
I if there ever is like I'll call it drama.
That doesn't have to be conflict, Okay, conflict.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
I think people have a weird relationship to the word conflict.
Like we said in the first episode, conflict is good
to have in a relationship. We need conflict in a
relationship and no relationship, if it's healthy, it's going to
have it. So it's not about not having conflict, it's
about how we manage it.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
You're right, I know this, I know this. I know
conflict is good. You're like any relationships I know, and
I know that we have had some healthy conflict. But
when I think of like, I think I'm the one
that brings the majority of it. Like I don't know
how to say this. That's why I'm struggling with my
words because I'm not trying to put it on me.
But like he's so like like I was looking at
(30:38):
him the other day, like we were driving in the
car or something, and I was like looking at him,
and I was like, he's just so like why is
he so easy? Well, like why is he so?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
What's his enneagram number?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Chill? He doesn't know because he doesn't. He's like, it's
not I'm not really my thing.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
He's literally Patrick. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. I also had this thought when you said something
about Patrick the other day. I almost texted you, but
then I was like, this is about you and Patrick
right now, so I don't want to make it about
me and Alex at all, So I didn't text it.
You texted it something about Patrick, about how you can
almost cry right now, how great he's been to you
through some stuff. Yeah, So I replied back, like, but
in my mind I also had a thought of like
(31:16):
I kind of had this feeling of that's how I
feel about Alex and it's weird, and I was like
Alex and Big P or same the these But I
didn't want to bring Alex into the mix because it
was like, you're, well, I know, but I didn't need
to make that about But I do think that they
are very similar.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
They're both very steady, which is low.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Chaos simple.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
They're easy to get. Everybody loves them.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah, I told you before. Sometimes I poke for the
drama and then it like he doesn't take the baby
even sometimes I'm not even really poking, like I'm just like, well,
surely this like I will, I'll say it. It's not
like I think before it's going to ruffle feathers. I'll
say it, and then there will be kind of like nothing,
and I'm like I thought that would I would think
that would ruffle a little bit. But like, look at him,
(32:07):
but it's not. He's not shallow or no, he's just
he's not a deep thinker. It's not that he's like
not involved or engaged and he's just like tuning me out.
That's not it at all, because there could be that
type of relationship you know, yeah, you know I dated
that one guy a little bit, Like how how did
we describe him? Sort of just like aloof and like
not very deep surface yeah, just sort of yeah. Uh
(32:31):
so it's not that because he's also deep anyway. It's
just an interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
That you bring most of that. Well, I that's probably
I'll speak for my relationships. I don't I don't totally know.
But what I do know with Patrick is he's so
adaptable and he truly doesn't care about a lot of stuff.
He's a nine. I will say for him. I'm gonna
speak for him. Sorry, Patrick, You're not gonna hear this anyway.
(32:59):
He has learned to just like go with the flow
in so many areas of his life that like, he
really truly feels fine about a lot of stuff versus
I am not that way. I do. I have stronger
emotions about things, so I'm more likely to bring something
because I'm more likely to have a strong feeling versus
(33:20):
like I'm dramatic and problematic and he's not. He just doesn't.
He doesn't get activated in that way because of how
he's learned to deal with conflict in his past or
just things in general. But one thing that gets us
in trouble is I don't like try to like start
fights with him out of nothing. But I'll like ask
a random question and like pretend that I like to
(33:43):
get mad, and then he won't respond the way I
want him to, and then I'll really get upset, like and.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
He'll admitted to that before and he's like.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Catherine, I'm not doing this because you're gonna get mad.
And this is about like if you were a worm
or not, like you're not gonna be a worm or
it was one time I asked if I turned into
a dog, would he remarry and he said yes, but
I'd keep you as.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
My pet and then you got really mad. That sounds
like a trap, right, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
But like he can be more jovial in those things
where like I start to think about them more deeply
and then I'm like what does this mean? And I'm like, wait,
I don't even care. So we've learned to like I've
had a don't do that.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, thank you for sharing some of that, because I
think it helps give me a perspective of I am
a more emotional person than he is. You're more so
I'm bringing more of that emotion to the table. And
then I don't know, maybe in what certain things he's
been through in life and like losing his wife, he
has like perspective on what really matters and he's not
going to like waste time on Well.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
You're also thinking about things in different ways. So like
when something happens for me, I have this feeling and
it's connected to this, but like he's having this feeling
and it's connected to this. So like, that's why a
lot of times it's not about what you're fighting about,
it's about what that's connected to and what's really underneath that,
Because this is underneath the trash for me, but this
is what's underneath the tra rash for him. No wonder
(35:02):
I'm upset and he's like, who cares?
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah? Okay, yeah, I don't know why I just went
rogue there for a second, but I was thinking of
all the four horsemen, and I'm like, Okay, I've seen
my shelf myself show up ride in on these horses,
and I'm like, what horses has he ridden and on?
Yet besides the steadfast hours.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
We need that one.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
We need that one. So I'm thankful for it. All Right, Well,
there you go, the four horsemen.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And let that also be a lesson of compatibility for
you that like, how should I say this? I think
we talked about this recently. It's not about people being
good or bad or people being they're too chaotic and
they need to work on this and they need to whatever.
It's finding partners that are compatible, finding partners that he
compliments you. Yes, So if I was married to somebody
(35:49):
who's just like me, our relationship would be so chaotic.
But Patrick brings me down. Why I help ruffle him
up a little bit, like I help him feel more
deeply and he helps me kind of like chill out sometimes. Yeah,
So compatibility, it's not one person is messy and one
(36:10):
person is Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
One final note about that too, is if you're used
to a little bit of chaos that I've talked about
this before, when you meet someone that might be more
compatible for you, sometimes it might seem a little boring.
Come on, and you have to push past that. Yeah,
and that could be a whole other thing. But it's like,
don't throw in the towel right away, because I think
I probably could have done that with him, because your
(36:32):
nervous system is used to something different, and so you
get to just see if you're going to alter and
adapt and calm down and be like, oh wait a second,
Boring is actually awesome because it doesn't mean like he's boring.
I'm talking about the feeling and the relationship feels n
and e but then it feels exciting. Yeah, and you're
(36:53):
like grateful for it and you're like, wow, who knew okay,
that's wrap right, that's okay. I hope you have the
day you need to have. Bye bye mhm
All right, break it down.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
and Cat got your cob and like a brother, Ladies
and folks, do you just follow an the spirit where
it's all the front over real stuff to the chill
stuff and him.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
But Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do it just.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Stop you feel things. This is feeling things.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
With Amy and Cat. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things.
I'm Amy and I'm Cat, and here we are. It
is the final horseman. I don't know why every time
I tell you when we talk about this, like they
see them riding in on their horses. Because today's worse
is stonewalling.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
And he's riding in. I'm saying a word.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
No, he's just and it doesn't have to be a heat.
Women can stonewall.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yeah, Cat most likely is a heat.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Well, but you told me that you stone wall and
I was a little bit shocked, but you were saying
you were, Like, it's kind of crazy because doctor Cotman
says that what percentage of men do this?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Well, stonewallers are eighty percent male? Okay from his resting, Yeah,
but doesn't mean that obviously twenty percent and that statistic
I think might waiver a little bit, but it shocks you.
Because I'm a girl, or because you know me.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I have not experienced stone walling from you. So I
don't know if this is something you reserve just for
your man, you know, inside special for him, just something
you like to do to your lover. Yeah, so we'll
get into stone walling. But before we do that, you've
got our feeling of the day, or your feeling.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Of the day. I guess it could be yours. You
can well, seemsis.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
What you're feeling.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I'll tell you I'm feeling playful.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I could get on board with that, and I need
you to.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Get on board with that because I have an activity
for us.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh yeah, So the gift of your playfulness is that
we have an activity.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yes, and every everybody can participate. Okay, this is going
to be a gift to you because you can take
this out into the world with you. So I was
just scrolling Instagram one day, and I think because we
talk about conversation cards a lot, maybe I get sometimes
these reels or things that are just like questions to
ask your partner or anybody. I think this comes from
(02:19):
Flamingo app reels. Is the Instagram account. If you go
to their account, there's tons of different options of this.
But I was scrolling one day and I was about
to go. Me and Patrick, we're going to dinner that night.
So I saved it and we did it as an
activity for dinner. And it was just seven fun, ridiculous
questions to ask your partner. But we did them, and
(02:39):
I was like, you could do this with you could
It doesn't have to be your partner. Some of them
it would be.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Kind of weird to give your prodcast partner.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yes, sometimes you have to think. So I don't want
you to feel pressure to like rapid fire answer these,
but I thought we could do them together.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, so you're going to answer them as well.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, but it's kind of cheating because I've had time
to think about it. It's fine, okay, and I'm going
to share something that kind of has to do a
stonewalling in one of Patrick's answers.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, you know what I was thinking, If like, you're
feeling playful and you don't lean into it, you miss
out on fun stuff like this.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, what if you were like, I don't feel like
it and then not just you miss out everybody misses.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Out right, like when you don't pay attention to your playfulness.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
But sometimes you're not feeling it. So I get that too, Right,
If you need time for one of these questions, you
can say past and we'll come back to it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
If I disappeared for twenty four hours, where's the first
place you would look for me?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, so you're not at your house, obviously Kat's missing,
is okay, I would check your parents' house.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Am I? There a lot you're thinking like really logically okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, but you're not at your office probably Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Where I think the point of this question.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Is, am I not being playful?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I think you're trying to solve a crime right now? Okay,
it's hypothetical. Okay. Patrick said he would look for me
in the bed because I always want to go to bed. Yeah,
I'm in the bed at eight o'clock at night. He
was like, you'll be in that. I said, for you,
you'd be on a walk me. Yeah, for me, okay,
I would look for you at the place that you
walk that. I don't want to say out out because.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
There all the time. Yeah, okay, yeah that's good, all right,
I get help. So i'd look for you in bed.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Are you having fun?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I yes, I guess now that I get the idea
of it. I would say that there's but y'all moved,
so this wouldn't be you anymore. But if y'all still
lived kind of in the area that you lived in, well,
I would look for you maybe somewhere one of those
places near there where you can like go and drink
and play games.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Okay, okay, that's a really good answer.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, like card games and stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Okay, So at any bars there's like food and stuff
to you. Okay, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Know there's like sports on during the day.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, okay, that's because you're have a drinking problem.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I wasn't thinking that, but okay, okay, I get it.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We might have a new listener and that's like at
the bar.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, and most of the time when I'm at the bar,
I'm playing cards. Okay. Number two, If I got arrested,
what crime would you assume I committed? I can answer first.
You go first, I said, accidentally stealing something if you
didn't ring it up at a self checkout. And my
reason is you are very lawful. I don't know if
(05:25):
that's right word, but you follow the law I think
you're like me and that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
If I'm driving with an expired license right now, so
I would probably go to jail for that. Okay, Like,
I'm way expired, so.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
You don't have a real I D No, So I
guess you're using your passport.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
To foow Like I'm so expired that I am going
to have to take the driver's test to get my license.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
No, no, no, yeah, how expired? Is that?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It's expired enough? Like a few months? Oh, okay, February
you read I get that it expired in February, but
my even just okay, now I'm clarifying, clarifying it expires
and then you have some time to renew it without
having to take the test. And yes, and I that's
(06:12):
what I'm saying. I've just missed. I'm not that far
out from my period where I have to take the test.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You have to get in the car with a stranger
and do like.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Oh, I think it's a written test. I don't think I.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Have to do the what do you mean a written test?
I have to do the.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Written test, not a test test. Okay, Or if I
do that, that's fine, I'll be good. Oh wow, Yeah,
that doesn't scare me.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I was so nervous about my driving test. My mom
had to you know, most kids are like when they
turned sixteen, they're like, Mom, let's go. My mom had
to like surprise me one day and be like, we're
going to take the driver's test because I wouldn't do it,
so I probably would just be like I can't drive anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
So I'm thinking, like there was injustice somewhere and you, like,
I don't know, you did something to try to right
or wrong and ended up in jail. Okay, Like I
don't know if you're protesting something or like you feel
that's like obviously you can legally protest, but something goes
terribly wrong and you end up in jail for it.
(07:12):
It's it's a huge misunderstanding. But you were just trying,
like to help to help. Okay, that ended up in
jail because you like for there to be justice.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, Okay, When I'm mad, which cartoon character do I act?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Most?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Can you go first?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Okay? This was hard. I had to literally google what
are cartoon characters that get mad? And this one didn't
come up in that, but I did see it and
reminded me of you. I'm gonna say Mulan. The reason
is one, I just really like Mulan, but when she
gets mad, she uses that to like to do something
good and like drive her. I feel like when you
(07:51):
get mad, you get like, oh, I'm gonna do this
anyway or not like break the law, but I'm gonna
like I'm gonna prove them wrong or I'm gonna fight
for myself. And I feel like that's.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Move on, and that's okay. I've never I have a confession,
I've not ever seen that.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Wait, you're not familiar with this show.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I know Mulan, but I have never seen it.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Let's get down to business. No the huns, Oh, Christiana
Agulre that I see dare range straight backget and me
Houston's gun, I take this out. Don't go like that.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
You're just saying that's leave it in. That was cute.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh my gosh, that was my favorite Disney movie. Okay,
that is homework. You've got to watch it.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Are you kidding me? I've asigned Pretty Woman to you
like five hundred times and you've never watched.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Okay, I'll do it.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Okay, fine, you watch pretty Woman.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Watch in two weeks. You two weeks.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
We have two weeks to watch it because you got
to focus on your driving test first.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, okay, you can take time to think about that,
but I will tell you Patrick's answer. Okay, he said,
which I thought was so creative of him. He also
watched a lot of cartoons growing up, he said, Tom
and Jerry because you get really quiet when you get mad,
which stonewalling. When I get upset, I get become very quiet,
and Tom and Jerry is silent. I think was this
(09:11):
point in that Okay, So I was like Patrick, that
was very introspective.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I don't really know, and you know me so well.
I mean, I'm trying to think of like cartoon characters
and I don't.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I don't know the one that's okay. I took a
lot of time for that one. So we can. I'll
give you a pass.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I'll just I second what Patrick said.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Okay, number four, if we swap lives for a day,
what's the first thing you'd struggle with?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Oh okay, Oh, I just thought of something can't say.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, you can say that, No, you can say that,
just don't say what it is. You can just say
something that I can't say, Well, something.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
That I can't say. But that's not very fun for
our listener.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's just very true. And we're being playful.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, we're being playful. So something we can talk about
one day. We're not trying to be total secret, but
it would be that. And then well, I was gonna say,
your job, like being a therapist and having the like,
I think you'd like give people advice, but I think
i'd kind of like it, like it. But then what
if I mess up and I give them the wrong advice?
That would be bad.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, you're not really giving people advice.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
That's true. They have to come up with their own conclusion. Yeah,
I know, but if I guide them or do say
something wrong, like I would just feel very stressed about
that or like taking on all of their emotions and
things they have going on, Like that's gotta be a
lot for you and all the therapists out there to
shout out, Oh, all the different home cooked meals that
(10:33):
you do stressful because y'all are like, yay, we're going
to do homemade pasta tonight, which would be on Saturday. Yeah,
which isn't that hard because you taught me on one
of our cooking episodes. But y'all tackle and take on
new little things.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Like that, I said, managing the balance between managing your
kids and your work and like making everything happen nails.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
If I were you, i'd be nervous.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
About keeping up with noise. Yeah, they're breaking right now. Okay.
If you saw me yelling at somebody in the street,
what do you think I'd be losing my cool over?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Okay, what'd you?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
This is why that I thought that you're a legal
one was interesting because I feel like you'd be like
sticking up for somebody, and you'd be yelling at somebody
else because like somebody did something to somebody else, so
you wouldn't even be involved. Like let's say, like somebody
hit somebody else's car and then try to run away.
You'd be like, hey, you get back here, you hit
their car or something like that. Or if somebody was
(11:41):
like mean to kids, you'd be like careful.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
As long as I knew they weren't going to retaliate,
then I probably would do it. But my kids bikes
were stolen once and I ran into the kids at
the park and I went after them and I was like, hey,
those are I mean it was my kid's bikes. Like
Stevenson had this he was like seven, had this tiny
bike there was red with like fireflames on it, and
this like fourteen year old kid was on this tiny
(12:06):
bike you give it. The person next to him was
on Stashiro's kind of girly bike, and they had been
stolen out of our garage like a week or two before.
And it was the Nashville Marathon and we were down
at a park watching because like Mike d from the
Bobby Bone Show was racing, and so we went to
watch him. And it was me and my husband at
the time and the kids, and there was tons of
people around, so I think that's why I wasn't scared
(12:27):
to go up to them. And I went up and
I said, where did you get those bikes? And they
knew they were busted and they were like, oh, they
we got them from our cousin or something. And I'm like, mmm,
but you know those aren't your bikes, right, because like,
look like you'll are teenage boys and these this is
a Do you see that little boy and that little
girl over there? Those are their bikes? And I think
(12:49):
you know exactly where they came from and you yes,
And then and I said, and I think the right
thing to do would be to give them back. They
want their bikes, like they would have ridden their bikes
down here to watch this race. But we walked.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
They went in your garage and.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
They stole them. Those when we lived in East Nashville
and our garage was in an alley. I mean we
probably had the garage door open open maybe or something,
but during the day, I don't know. I just know
that the bikes were missing. And then saw them at
the park and went up to them. But then a
police officer And maybe this is what also made my
fear of retaliation heightened because I was able to do
at the time. But there was, like I said, as
(13:23):
a marathon, there was tons of people around, but a
police officer was doing traffic when we were walking back,
like he was helping escort cars. And I stopped him
and I said hey, And then he looked at me
and he was like, wait a second, are you Amy
from the Bobby Bone Show? And I said yes, and
I said thank you for being a listener, Like this
makes me feel better about telling you the story. But
(13:43):
I just saw these two kids and they were on
my kids bikes, and I went up to them and said,
you need to give them back, and they were stolen
from our garage a couple weeks ago, and he said, well,
I think that's great that you got the bikes back.
He's like, we've had to up the number of police
in this area because of juvenile crime and other activity
(14:05):
where they could be armed and dangerous. And so he's like,
while it worked out for you, I would highly recommend
never going up to these kids, even though they look
like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, they could be carrying a weapon
and decide to pull it on. He's like, I'm just
letting you know that we have upped our police presence
over here specifically because of that, So don't be so
(14:27):
quick to go up to these kids and demand your
bike's back. And I was like, oh, yes, sir, no problem.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Good to know.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And so that was probably two thousand, eighteen twenty nineteen
or something. But I do have this major fear of retaliation. Well, yeah,
only get involved. There's something I heard about someone in
town that did something really shady recently. They're kind of
well known. I don't want to say exactly because I
don't know how public all the details are, but I
(14:55):
will say that I have played over in my mind
probably about five times were to ever run into them,
like just being like you're not a good person. Like
that's how passionately I felt about it. My boyfriend told
me I was overacting a little bit, and I said,
I don't think I am.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
But you're you're worried about them retaliating.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, I don't think he would retaliate. That's why I
feel okay, being like, oh okay, but I don't think
I would actually ever say that to someone anyways, but
I pictured myself.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Doing bea I imagine that icky to me, Like what
he did is so icky and doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It's such a power trip. It's like using your power,
money and influence to like where it doesn't belong.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I'd like wait to hear about this.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Like it's total butt head move just because you have
money and power that impacts someone's life in their livelihood,
but because you disagreed with something like it shouldn't it's
sort of political, but it shouldn't have gotten in the
way of anything. And it just really made me bummed
because like do better, like we need to be we
(15:57):
need to do better, like you have children, Like why
it just made.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Me okay, so you would go that's what. Yeah, I
would find you in the parking lot doing maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
If I see him the picture me running into that
guy and being better. Hey yeah, No, it's more like
I don't even think I would be like super judgy.
I would just be like confused, like seriously, where did
this go wrong? When did you become the person?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Help me understand?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, help me understand, because like this okay not cool?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So there you have it. This game is long. Uh
you're not having some place sorr SB.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
We have two more and they're very quick. Wait, oh
my gosh, I have to say this. You just said
that's not cool on my thing. I said, I would
see you talking to somebody saying, hey, that's not cool.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You quoted me. Okay, see, but I don't know if
I answered, but I think that that's what you would
be doing too.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Remember that one time I got in the fight with
the lady in the parking lot and you were like,
don't do that, Catherine. She could have a gun on her, yes,
I like, what is it called when you like steak out?
I wouldn't move because she was trying to steal my
parking spot and she was trying to make me move,
and she was pretending like she was gonna hit my
car and I was like, hit it. And then you
were like, Heather, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
No, she could have a gun.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Okay. Anyway, if we were in a zombie apocalypse, would
I be the comic relief group leader or the one
who screams first?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Comic relief group leader or the one that screams first?
No offense, but I don't see you leading us. You
probably would be the comedic relief or what's the next one?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
The one who screams first.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, you're screaming. You're screaming first.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was thinking you would be the comic relief.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, I'm not the leader either, Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
And the last one. If I had a fan club,
what would they call themselves? Yours is easy, Oh, the
kitty Cats? Yeah, and then yours would be the Brownies.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Oh cute?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, Okay, that's it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Fun game. Fun game.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
To bring us to a not so fun topic, stone
Wall stonewalling, So quick recap. We're on the fourth horsemen.
We've had three. So first one was first one.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Was criticism, and the antidote to that was to not
criticize the gentle startup.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
The second one was sorry, I feel like I'm giving
you a pop quart I'll help you.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
The second one was defensiveness, and the antidote was.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Don't be so defensive.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
To accept responsibility. And the third one was contempt and
the antidote was.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I'm just you see with all three of them, I'm
just like repeating it back.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, it's the foster culture of appreciation. Yes, that's right,
that's a hard one. And then the fourth one is
stone walling. Stonewalling. Okay, we already said stonewalling. These are
just some fun facts. Eighty percent of the time it's men.
And I actually want to ask you this before I
give you any information, because I think this one is
(19:01):
very it's confused. So when you think of stonewalling, you've
heard of this word before. What do you think stonewalling is?
And why do you think people do it?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Silent treatment? Okay, how I picture it? And I think
they do it because that's their way of controlling the situation.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So it's like this like active, very much manipulative. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
My experience with people that give the silent treatment or
when I have is like you send the other person
into this, like what have I done? Panic, or they
may try to start fixing it and then you feel like, oh,
I have all this control. Look they're wanting to talk
to me about I'm just gonna, okay, keep not talking
about I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I think people do that. But when we're talking about
stonewalling here, it comes last, and it's usually talked about
last because it usually comes after a buildup of emotion
and it happens when you feel overwhelmed and this flooding
experience happens. And one of the predict four stonewalling is
just a high heart rate, like over one hundred. So
(20:04):
it's not so much this act of choice that like
I'm going to stop talking to manipulate you. It oftentimes
is more a reaction to sometimes unconscious or subconscious I'm
going to not say anything because I don't know what
to say, or because I think I'm making it worse
and if I just am quiet, then maybe things will
(20:27):
get better. And what happens a lot of times is
that makes you believe it more mad. So I'm silent
towards you. That escalates you right versus calms you down right. Yes, okay,
so this happens when somebody gets flooded So after you've
been in a conflict and you're feeling flooded, then you
(20:49):
kind of have this reaction to you don't know what
to do. It's like physiologically, you're in this fight or flight.
When you're in fight or flight, what happens to you?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, I'm much more reacting. I mean it depends. Yeah,
but I'm not thinking logically and I not very rational.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah. Well, because a part of your brain is shut off.
So like the logical part of your brain is not working.
It's thinking survival, how do I survive? And when you're
in actual danger, that's really helpful because it will help
you get to wherever you need to go, whether you
need to run, whether you need to freeze and play dead,
whether whatever. But in this scenario, you're not actually in
physical danger, so your body is setting you sensations that
(21:29):
aren't actually matching up with the reality of your physical safety.
But when we are feeling flooded, we can't think and
have a rational conversation. Therefore the next logical that's not
logical step is I'm just gonna shut down. Okay, So
that is what stonewalling is versus silent treatment. When I
think of silent treatment. I think of what you were
(21:53):
saying where I am just I mean, I honestly think
of myself when I was like in middle school. I
don't know what our friend group's deal was, and maybe
it was just me. But I love to get mad
at somebody and then be like, I'm not talking to
so and so, and then two weeks would go by
and I would just ignore them, and then I would
forget why I was mad. That's just manipulating, because maybe
(22:16):
if I stopped talking to you, you'll apologize for what
you did, but then at the end of the day,
I don't even remember.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, so, how do you know the difference of someone
as stonewalling or silent treatment ing?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
You mean, like, how do I know as the person
that it's happening to you? Yes, So I think in
these scenarios it's just good to know this because it
happens at the point of like we've gone too far.
This isn't just like something happens, you say something and
then all of a sudden, I just like decide to
give you the silent treatment. This is happening in an
(22:49):
argument that we're having, or a conflict that we're having,
and then I end up shutting down, and you might
not always know, but you can always check in, like, hey,
are you feeling overwhelmed? And a lot of times this happens,
people will busy themselves, so I won't even be meaning
to just not talk, but we'll be having an argument
and all of a sudden, I'll start doing the dishes and
(23:10):
you know what I mean, and it will look like
I'm not paying attention to you. But really I'm overwhelmed
and I need some kind of escape and I don't
know how to ask for it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
So out of all four of these, this one I
feel like I'm having. I'm actually having like compassion for
Maybe I should have it for all of them. I'm
not sure, because everybody has their own things. But this one,
now I'm starting to feel like, oh, like if someone
is stone walling, I'm less like I want to know
(23:38):
more of Like what happened.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
To you that's making to you shut down?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, but like surely maybe something happened to make you
become a stonewaller or is that the natural?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Both? Okay, I think it can be both. I I
was telling you earlier, I was in a because again,
you wouldn't assume that I would be prone to this behavior,
but I am.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I was shocked to hear you say that you're a
still Muller and that Patrick made you the cartoon character
and goes silent.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So in a previous relationship, something that would happen is
we would get in these arguments and I would feel
very confused, and I eventually realized that, like, if I
agree with this person, I'm still getting yelled at. If
I stand up for myself and I disagree, like I'm
getting yelled at. And so I felt stuck and I
would literally feel like I'm trapped, like I don't know
(24:39):
how to get out of this. I want to just
shut down. So I would just stop talking and then
that would piss them off even more. But I learned
to do that because I became so over there was
nowhere else for me to go. I had no options,
and so that was not like a healthy behavior for
me to do. But when you're in an unhealthy relationship,
there's no coping. Yes, if the other person isn't willing
(25:02):
to like hear you out on that, then you don't
really have anywhere to go other than like, let's get
out of the relationship. So now I'm in a healthy relationship.
I still know that I get kind of flustered in
some of those conflict moments that we have, or I
know that i've I've it takes me longer to figure
out what I want to say sometimes in high conflict
(25:22):
situations in our relationship. So rather than shut down because
that's became like just part of what I did a habit,
I will say I need a second. I will say, hey,
I'm not not talking to you. I'm going to respond
to what you just said. I need a second to
think about what I want to say and how I want.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
To say it.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So is that the antidote pausing? So the antidote pause pause, pause,
post pun. The antidote actually is pascas.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
The antidote is to self soothe, So it's to essentially
take a break and self soothe. And so what I
was doing wasn't exactly the antidote, but it's I mean,
in tandem with it, or like I need space and time,
and that's really just me communicating with my partner. Hey,
I'm still here in this conversation. So with the antidote
(26:10):
self soothe, what is really recommended to do is let's
take a break. So you say if we're in this
conflict and I notice that I want to shut down. Hey,
I'm noticing that I'm getting really overwhelmed, and I really
want to talk about this and I want to figure
this out. So the best thing for me would be
to take a break, calm down, and then let's come
back in twenty minutes and finish this conversation. And then
(26:33):
if the person says, I don't, I'm not taking a break.
We're figuring this out now, you can still take the break.
I would say, they're on their own horse.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
It's just different.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, you can still say, well, you know, I need
the break, so I'm going to still go and I'm
going to go fold the laundry upstairs, and I'll all
me eat back down here. And then they're kind of
forced to take that and hopefully they do self sooth
and then you just go do something. It could be anything.
It could be just going and doing breathing exercises. It
can be just walk taking a little while. It could
(27:00):
be listening to a calming song. It could be your
ice roller. It could be folding the laundry or cleaning something,
but anything that helps regulate you, because in that moment,
there's that feeling of deep overwhelmed, trapped, panic, and you're
never going to solve a problem well when those things
(27:21):
are involved.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, okay, I I guess for the longest time, if
I had heard stone Walling, which I never have, done
a deep dive into the Four Horsemen, so I've learned
a lot. But stone Walling I always thought was literally
just silent treatment. It was more of, like you said,
a manipulative tactic and it's not at all like you're
(27:46):
when you're doing That's what That's probably why I was
so shocked that you reacted that way, because I'm like, what, Yeah,
it's more Yeah, you're explaining it makes sense that you
do that.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I mean, but if you do any of these things,
don't be too hard on yourself. There is a way out,
and that's why we're talking about them. There is something
else you can do. And like any feeling, if I'm
using these behaviors, that means that there's a need that's
not being met.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, And if you haven't listened to the other four
episodes the Little Pop Quiz recap, we gave a minute
ago of the you know Horsemen and the antidote that
was not fully like go listen to the episodes because
you'll hear more inside, or go to the Gotman Institute's website.
There's so many resources there, because I do see how
it would be so helpful to know, like how you
(28:35):
show up in your relationship and how your partner's showing
up if y'all are riding in on these horses at
any time.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, and if you notice yourself, if you don't normally
act like this in conflict, and you notice yourself using
one of these communication strategies, that's a signal or a
sign for you that like, hey, something's up, Like it
might not be about the relationship. It might really just
be about me. If I'm really overwhelmed in general in
my life or in any other area, and then I
(29:02):
come and we have some kind of conflict and I
already feel like I'm up here, I might stonewall just
because I've shut down because other things are in the way.
So it doesn't always mean there's something wrong with your
relationship that needs to be fixed or repaired. It sometimes
can be like there's something that I need, and I'm
bringing this into our relationship and I don't want to
do that. Good point, So this one's pretty simple, but stonewalling.
(29:27):
We don't want to do it, sometimes it happens. Thank you, John.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Gotman, Thank you John Gotman for the Four Horsemen. I'm
trying to think of, like, you know, entering about a
year into my relationship, like being in a less chaotic
type relationship, Like how we go over this stuff? How
(29:51):
I if there ever is like I'll call it drama.
That doesn't have to be conflict, Okay, conflict.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
I think people have a weird relationship to the word conflict.
Like we said in the first episode, conflict is good
to have in a relationship. We need conflict in a
relationship and no relationship, if it's healthy, it's going to
have it. So it's not about not having conflict, it's
about how we manage it.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
You're right, I know this, I know this. I know
conflict is good. You're like any relationships I know, and
I know that we have had some healthy conflict. But
when I think of like, I think I'm the one
that brings the majority of it. Like I don't know
how to say this. That's why I'm struggling with my
words because I'm not trying to put it on me.
But like he's so like like I was looking at
(30:38):
him the other day, like we were driving in the
car or something, and I was like looking at him,
and I was like, he's just so like why is
he so easy? Well, like why is he so?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
What's his enneagram number?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Chill? He doesn't know because he doesn't. He's like, it's
not I'm not really my thing.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
He's literally Patrick. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. I also had this thought when you said something
about Patrick the other day. I almost texted you, but
then I was like, this is about you and Patrick
right now, so I don't want to make it about
me and Alex at all, So I didn't text it.
You texted it something about Patrick, about how you can
almost cry right now, how great he's been to you
through some stuff. Yeah, So I replied back, like, but
in my mind I also had a thought of like
(31:16):
I kind of had this feeling of that's how I
feel about Alex and it's weird, and I was like
Alex and Big P or same the these But I
didn't want to bring Alex into the mix because it
was like, you're, well, I know, but I didn't need
to make that about But I do think that they
are very similar.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
They're both very steady, which is low.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Chaos simple.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
They're easy to get. Everybody loves them.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah, I told you before. Sometimes I poke for the
drama and then it like he doesn't take the baby
even sometimes I'm not even really poking, like I'm just like, well,
surely this like I will, I'll say it. It's not
like I think before it's going to ruffle feathers. I'll
say it, and then there will be kind of like nothing,
and I'm like I thought that would I would think
that would ruffle a little bit. But like, look at him,
(32:07):
but it's not. He's not shallow or no, he's just
he's not a deep thinker. It's not that he's like
not involved or engaged and he's just like tuning me out.
That's not it at all, because there could be that
type of relationship you know, yeah, you know I dated
that one guy a little bit, Like how how did
we describe him? Sort of just like aloof and like
not very deep surface yeah, just sort of yeah. Uh
(32:31):
so it's not that because he's also deep anyway. It's
just an interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
That you bring most of that. Well, I that's probably
I'll speak for my relationships. I don't I don't totally know.
But what I do know with Patrick is he's so
adaptable and he truly doesn't care about a lot of stuff.
He's a nine. I will say for him. I'm gonna
speak for him. Sorry, Patrick, You're not gonna hear this anyway.
(32:59):
He has learned to just like go with the flow
in so many areas of his life that like, he
really truly feels fine about a lot of stuff versus
I am not that way. I do. I have stronger
emotions about things, so I'm more likely to bring something
because I'm more likely to have a strong feeling versus
(33:20):
like I'm dramatic and problematic and he's not. He just doesn't.
He doesn't get activated in that way because of how
he's learned to deal with conflict in his past or
just things in general. But one thing that gets us
in trouble is I don't like try to like start
fights with him out of nothing. But I'll like ask
a random question and like pretend that I like to
(33:43):
get mad, and then he won't respond the way I
want him to, and then I'll really get upset, like and.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
He'll admitted to that before and he's like.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Catherine, I'm not doing this because you're gonna get mad.
And this is about like if you were a worm
or not, like you're not gonna be a worm or
it was one time I asked if I turned into
a dog, would he remarry and he said yes, but
I'd keep you as.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
My pet and then you got really mad. That sounds
like a trap, right, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
But like he can be more jovial in those things
where like I start to think about them more deeply
and then I'm like what does this mean? And I'm like, wait,
I don't even care. So we've learned to like I've
had a don't do that.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, thank you for sharing some of that, because I
think it helps give me a perspective of I am
a more emotional person than he is. You're more so
I'm bringing more of that emotion to the table. And
then I don't know, maybe in what certain things he's
been through in life and like losing his wife, he
has like perspective on what really matters and he's not
going to like waste time on Well.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
You're also thinking about things in different ways. So like
when something happens for me, I have this feeling and
it's connected to this, but like he's having this feeling
and it's connected to this. So like, that's why a
lot of times it's not about what you're fighting about,
it's about what that's connected to and what's really underneath that,
Because this is underneath the trash for me, but this
is what's underneath the tra rash for him. No wonder
(35:02):
I'm upset and he's like, who cares?
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah? Okay, yeah, I don't know why I just went
rogue there for a second, but I was thinking of
all the four horsemen, and I'm like, Okay, I've seen
my shelf myself show up ride in on these horses,
and I'm like, what horses has he ridden and on?
Yet besides the steadfast hours.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
We need that one.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
We need that one. So I'm thankful for it. All Right, Well,
there you go, the four horsemen.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And let that also be a lesson of compatibility for
you that like, how should I say this? I think
we talked about this recently. It's not about people being
good or bad or people being they're too chaotic and
they need to work on this and they need to whatever.
It's finding partners that are compatible, finding partners that he
compliments you. Yes, So if I was married to somebody
(35:49):
who's just like me, our relationship would be so chaotic.
But Patrick brings me down. Why I help ruffle him
up a little bit, like I help him feel more
deeply and he helps me kind of like chill out sometimes. Yeah,
So compatibility, it's not one person is messy and one
(36:10):
person is Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
One final note about that too, is if you're used
to a little bit of chaos that I've talked about
this before, when you meet someone that might be more
compatible for you, sometimes it might seem a little boring.
Come on, and you have to push past that. Yeah,
and that could be a whole other thing. But it's like,
don't throw in the towel right away, because I think
I probably could have done that with him, because your
(36:32):
nervous system is used to something different, and so you
get to just see if you're going to alter and
adapt and calm down and be like, oh wait a second,
Boring is actually awesome because it doesn't mean like he's boring.
I'm talking about the feeling and the relationship feels n
and e but then it feels exciting. Yeah, and you're
(36:53):
like grateful for it and you're like, wow, who knew okay,
that's wrap right, that's okay. I hope you have the
day you need to have. Bye bye mhm
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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