December 31, 2020 • 44 mins
FIRST THING: Do you trust yourself or do you look to outside sources for direction and validation? Glennon and Amy talk about how easy it is to find our directions from everything outside of ourselves, but living authentically comes when we can learn to slow down and listen to our inner selves.
SECOND THING: You would think that gratitude would come easily to someone like Oprah, but Amy shares Oprah’s story about how she had to refocus her intention to get back into a daily practice of finding things to be grateful for!
THIRD THING: Dr. Beverly Tatum, psychologist and author of “Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria” is on to continue the conversation about race. She is here to help us learn how to break the silence and how we can bring about change.
FOURTH THING: Amy and her sister Cristi {@cristidozier} talk about Amy’s recovery from her disordered eating. Cristi shares her perspective from watching Amy’s struggle with this and how much change and growth she has seen in her.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Okay, cast up broth than a little food for yourself life.
Oh that's pretty but hey, that's pretty beautiful. Thank you
(00:22):
that for a little month. Four. Okay, the next thing
I want to get into is a touch treat. Explain
to people what that is. My husband was in the
Air Force for twelve years and I was talking to
him one time about for lost in a while and
(00:43):
my son were hiking in Colorado, and my son was
asking a bunch of different questions, and I remember having
a similar thought of there's no way I would be
able to get us back to where we started. I
just wouldn't. And my husband's like, sure, you just have
to find a point of reference, wouldn't picture You know
it's gonna be this tree is gonna be that are
We're gonna make it a point of reference. So I
(01:05):
feel like when I was in that situation, I just
kind of let my husband lead because that's his expertise
and I trust him. And I'm horrible with directions and
point of reference. So I feel like sometimes in life,
not that exact scenario obviously, but and maybe it's not
(01:26):
even my husband leading, but I almost don't trust myself
because I won't have my what's what I go back
to with what is true? Because I'm second guesting all
the time. Yes, I feel that. I think everybody feels.
That feels very familiar to me. So my entire hobby
(01:49):
is just watching really bad TV. Okay, Like the level
of TV that I watch is like, if you look
at the television, you try to find what is the
least productive thing you can do with your brain. That's
what I watch, Like Bravo is my life. Okay, So
it's embarrassing. Actually, So it's watching this weird show one
day about I think it was called Survivor Man. It
(02:10):
was like a show about this guy who goes out
into the woods on purpose and he gets really lost
and then the whole show is about him finding his
way out. Okay, So it's fascinating this show and watching it,
and he explains to the audience that when someone gets
very lost in the woods, the main goal is to
be found, right, to be found, and the best way
(02:31):
to be found is to stay in one place. But
if you are lost in the woods, you can't stay
in one place for long because you have to go
out and get food and water and like whatever you
need to survive. So this is a problem. You have
to stay in one place and not stay in one place, okay.
So his solution was that if you're lost in the woods,
you have to find a touch tree. And what a
(02:51):
touch tree is is it's like a huge, recognizable tree
that you can go out into the woods each day
but come back to over and over again, right because
it's recognizable enough for you to find it, so you
can go out and come back, and go out and
come back. And this perpetual returning means that you can
(03:14):
never get too far gone. So what this made me
think of was that in my life, I have been
lost in the woods so many times. And every time
I think about those times in my life that I've
been lost, I can trace it back to my making
something outside of my deepest, truest self, my touch strength,
like a person a relationship and identity um an old identity, uh, dogma, religion,
(03:40):
outer ideas of success, something that I'm looking to outside
of this to find my way home. And it never
ever works, right. It's always how we remain confused or lost.
It's like this morning, this is I'm just thinking about
this as I'm speaking, so abby and I have this
friend come over to help us to a workout this morning.
(04:01):
We did it doing this crazy thing where we had
to balance in front of each other, right, and she said,
find a point of reference, find a study point of reference.
I mean, I were looking at each other and we
could not stay on our feet, right because I'm shaking,
she's shaking, like, so we're both falling back and forth.
And of course my ridiculous mind can't just be like
(04:22):
we're working out. So in my head, I'm like, this
is a metaphor for relationships, right, Each person has to
find their own point of reference, no matter how much
in love with each other you are, because when you
look at each other to be the point of reference,
you can't always study each other, right, That's not our
job in a relationship. So the idea of the touch
(04:43):
trae is that the only thing that's been consistently wise,
consistently returned me to peace and truth is making my
deepest self in the quiet, my touch tree. Okay, The
one place that I can always find the truth, that
I can always find my next right move is when
I get quiet enough to turn off all the outer
(05:03):
voices in the entire world and I sit with myself
in the stillness, right, and then when you do that something,
when you do that long enough, we just all have
this inner voice, right, and we lose touch with it
because number one, we're so used to pleasing other people,
and number two, the voices on the outside are so loud.
So when we practice returning to this thing inside of us,
(05:23):
we find that thing that is always speaking to us.
And some people call it God, and some people call
it spirit, and some people call intuition, and some people
call it gut instinct. It doesn't matter what you call it.
But everybody who I know who is living a unique
shooting star of a life that they were meant to live,
is somebody who knows how to call it, regardless of
what they call it. How long did it take you
(05:44):
to find that in the world, Because I don't think
you someone can listen to this right now and think, oh, okay,
I need to be my own point of reference. So
that's where i' gonna start doing, Like I don't think
it just happens or addicted to so many things, right,
And I think when I started to become my point
of reference was in sobriety, right. I mean, nobody who's
(06:05):
numbing themselves out will ever become their own point of reference, right,
because you're what you're doing is you're literally numbing that voice.
So that's the first step. Right. If you're constantly numbing
or deflecting, then you know that can take you freaking
years to figure out how to stop doing that. Okay,
but that's step one. And then it actually is really,
really unbelievably easy. Now I shouldn't say it's easy it's simple.
(06:27):
It's actually not easy, okay, because I think that sitting
with yourself in the stillness is the hardest thing to
do in the world. That's why nobody does it. I mean,
people start entire wars because they can't sit with themselves
in the stillness, right, like being alone with yourself. It's
like we're those snow globes and we just keep ourselves
shaken up right all the time because we don't want
to see the thing, the little thing at the center
(06:49):
of the snow globe, because the thing at the center
of the snow globe is the truth, and we get
really still, that thing always pops up, right. It's that
thing that we have to heal from our past that
we haven't faced. It's that person we have to have
a conversation with It's that addiction we have that we're
you know, pretending that we don't have. It's a it's
a scary, hard truth, which is why so few of
(07:10):
us want to pretend that we don't know how to
return to ourselves because it's super simple but not easy. Gosh,
with a pandemic which we have no memo for at
all whatsoever. But so many people were forced to sit
with themselves and let the snow settle. And you know
a lot of people either yeah, we're continue the numbing,
(07:31):
or they realized, Okay, this is a time where I
can maybe put in the work. But a lot I
feel like in our home, a lot of stuff came
up because suddenly we're very busy, go go go, you know,
not necessarily what I think the pandemic is off for
my family. And I'll just share this because maybe it
feels like our own family tech tree but becoming more
of a family focused unit instead. And I've heard Burnee
(07:56):
Brown talk about it, of which variety. Now that I
mentioned her name pops the head too. She's when you
bring up sobriety, She's said before. I heard her Tim
Ferris's podcast saying that sobriety is her superpower. So whatever
you're numbing yourself with, maybe it's not alcohol, but once
you get rid of that, you feel like your powers back.
(08:16):
But you know, shut about kid focused families, parent focused
families and family focused. And you know, for us, we
had to get still. It caused a pandemic, caused us
to get still enough to realize we are not family focused,
really parent focused, your kids focused. We were just like
shifting whichever needed to get done, focused, focused out, or
(08:39):
focused just whatever way the wind blows. We're putting out
fires all day. And now we've sat with it, and
I feel like our family globe has settled, like well ship,
like we we don't even know what we're doing, who
we are or were doing? What? What do we want
to be together? So that's yeah, okay, that's so you're
(09:03):
stuck in my head is you're talking of, like that's
what's happened to our family, our snow globe has settled,
and now we're trying to figure out what to do
with what's been revealed. It's so good, sister, because that's
what happens to all of us. And then and then
when you when you're what you're talking about is slowing
down enough to be intentional too. It's just like we
end up just unintentional, just whatever comes to us we do.
(09:27):
You know. It's like and once we did. Once we
we don't take the time to stop and think, no,
what do I want for this family? Like not what
does the world want for me? But what do I
want for this family? Right? Because if we don't stop
and get intentional about it, the world will eat us up.
The demands from the world will eat us up. And
especially as parents, the world will tell us, Oh, they
(09:48):
have to be this, they have to be this, they
have to be infordunite and activities, they have to be
doing like the things that we don't even stop to think. Wait,
is that success? Is that how we measure success as
a family? And I think you're right at this pandemic
all the hell and it has I mean, the chaos
at his Reek. It is also forcing us all to
ask ourselves what do we want in the after? And
(10:11):
I think people are going to have different priorities, I hope,
and I think if you take the time to sit
with it, that's what I need to work on. It
is getting in touch with my my touch dream. Yeah,
me instead of like everything else and trusting other people
to guide me, because I feel like I will get
myself lost, right, So that's going to take work. Which,
by the way, before we wrap this thing, before we
(10:33):
get into some things that you're thankful for. In a
listener question, you mentioned Bramo and Trashy. My therapist has
told me, has kindly informed me that that stuff for
me is my self care. Thank you to your therapist
in the world, because that's one of the things that
actually I do it just it does that for me.
(10:56):
Self care looks different for so many different people, and
self care for me is Real Housewives that really helps. Listen, yes,
and you know what, it's just I mean, my family
makes fun of me to know end listen, Like all
day all I do is like trying to you know,
foster sisterhood and feminism. And then I watched the housewives
tear each other up all night. But here's the thing.
I don't have anything left. I quit drinking, I quit ning,
(11:20):
I quit everything. I need something to turn this hamster
wheel of a brain off at night, and real housewives
do it. Oprah had written an article about how you
know she's been journaling for years like years. But I
guess you took a break where she stepped away from it,
(11:42):
not intentionally, life just got busy. But I want to
read to you. I'm just gonna READO word for word.
I'm gonna read it like Oprah wrote it, and that
way I don't mess anything up. But it's called what
Oprah Knows for sure about gratitude? How do you find this?
Where you just? I was looking about because I'm we
were talking about the Gratitude Challenge and I was looking
(12:02):
for a few things. And then I realized growing up
my mom watching Oprah, she talked about gratitude all the time.
So like Google, I was like, oh, are you a
regular at oprah dot com? I will say her little
ww tour that she's on right now where she's got
all these and she's putting them up on her podcast
like you don't even have to be there and then
Cheer the whole Cheer people they were there and she
(12:23):
had she called Jerry up well, Monica and Jerry and
Gavy like they all went up there and she had
Jerry do Matt talk to the crowd. If y'all have
not watched Cheer yet, you need to, like it's so good.
I want to try to get Monica. I mean, we
had Monica on the Bobby Bone Show, but I would
love to get anybody from Cheer to come on the
(12:44):
podcast too. So back to the post that Oprah put up.
What Oprah knows for sure about gratitude? She said, for years,
I've been advocating the power and pleasure of being grateful.
I kept a gratitude journal for a full decade without
fail and urged you all to do the same. Then
life got busy, my schedule overwhelmed me. I still opened
(13:05):
my journal some nights, but my ritual of writing down
five things I was grateful for every day started slipping away.
Here's what I was grateful for on October twelfth, six
So yeah, oprahsman on the gratitude train way longer than us,
and she was doing like a four things with a bonus. Okay,
(13:27):
here's over spy things. First thing, a run around Florida's
Fisher Island with a slight breeze that kept me cool.
Second thing, eating cold melon on a bench in the sun.
Third thing along and hilarious chat with Gayale about her
blind date with Mr potato Head. Four survey in a
cone so sweet that I literally licked my finger. Fifth thing,
(13:49):
Maya Angelo calling to read me a new poem? Okay,
name drop Oprah, pick that one up off the floor.
Nice flex there, um. But yeah, that's so this was.
I'm gonna keep reading though. This is us talking now,
but I want to go back to finish it, she
said a few years ago, when I came across that
(14:09):
journal entry, I wondered why I no longer felt the
joy of simple moments. Since nineteen ninety six, I had
accumulated more wealth, more responsibility, more possessions, Everything, it seemed,
had grown exponentially, except my happiness. How had I, with
all my options and opportunities, become one of those people
(14:30):
who never had time to feel delight. I was stretched
in so many directions. I wasn't feeling much of anything.
Too busy doing. But the truth is I was busy
in n s too. I just made gratitude at daily priority.
I went through the day looking for things to be
grateful for, and something always showed up boom. And so
(14:54):
that is what we're hopeful for, at least Mary and
I are with the gratitude challenge, not only for ourselves
but for you. Is that you'll show up and make
gratitude of priority and that it'll benefit you in ways
that you didn't know. And I think that list is
a great reminder and you guys, you've done a great
job sharing with your listeners. Like, it doesn't have to
(15:15):
be these like huge things every day. It could be
like a simple phone call with your friend or what
was that ice cream? I mean something account there you go.
I mean it doesn't have to be I mean, we
all know we're not gonna have my calling us or
you know, a new poem. But yeah, it could be
(15:36):
simple like, yeah, did you get a conversation with a friend?
Like I got to talk to my sister the other
day and it was a great little catchup chat and
she had some stuff going on that I had no idea,
but I was thankful that she took the time to
share it with me, and that way I knew how
I could better be there for her because I had
no idea that that was happening, and so I was
(15:56):
thankful for that. And yeah, if you look for it,
things will show up and it really can be simple.
So shout out to Oprah who has been on the
gratitude drain for a long time. But I am thankful
for this entry because it really showed. I mean, this
is an example where she knew she felt more happiness
than she did even when she had more wealth, more things,
more stuff going on, more success, but she wasn't she
(16:20):
wasn't recognizing her gratitude. So take note from Oprah herself. Okay,
Dr Tatum, super excited to have you here with us
(16:41):
for this important time and conversation. And with that, a
conversation seems to be something that is a word I
have over and over of I need to be having
conversations with my kids, I need to be having conversations
with my friends. So I would like to hear from you,
how do we start these conversations. When white people are
(17:02):
talking to their white friends, often it is not a
topic they're talking about very much on except when something
like what's happening right now. You know, they've seen George
Floyd's murder on the news, Um, the protests are happening.
It's hard not to be talking about these questions. What
(17:23):
I find is that many of my white students over
the years in the places where I've taught, and many
of the people who come to my workshops have lived
a long time without much practice at having these conversations,
and so when they do want to have the conversations,
it feels very awkward, in part because they've grown up thinking,
(17:44):
I'm not supposed to mention race, I'm not supposed to
notice race, and so it almost feels like you're breaking
a societal will. People tell me that that's how they
sometimes feel, and they worry very much that they might
say or do the wrong thing, that it might be
perceived by someone else as saying something racially prejudiced, or
(18:07):
you know, they might just make some mistakes that cause
awkwardness and a conversation. That's especially true if they're talking
to a person of color, but even if it's a
white person talking to another white person, there may be
fear about that. But it's not hard to start a
conversation to simply say, I've been watching the news. It's
very upsetting to me. I wonder how you feel about
(18:28):
what you're saying. Kids, things are going to be different
depending on their age and what information they can handle.
But I could see how, yeah, that could be an
easy way to just see where someone is and their
thoughts and then breaking that what we were raised with,
which is the silence. I think you're right, you know,
when we how we're told so long, you know, just
(18:49):
be kind to people, don't have hate in your heart,
don't see color. People meant well. But actually that's what
we need to unlearn. Yes, I sometimes used as an
example a conversation with a preschooler. Let's imagine there's a
white parent with a white child, and they're in a
grocery store, and maybe they live in a largely white community,
(19:11):
so it's unusual to encounter a person of color. And
so let's imagine this three year old is in the
grocery store with mom and spots a dark skinned person.
That child might out of curiosity, saying, Mom, look at
that person, why is their skin so dark? And you
(19:31):
can imagine that that mom or dad might be embarrassed
in that moment, and the response might be to say,
you know, and not to answer the question, but simply
to silence the child in what feels like an awkward moment.
But the message to the child is we're not supposed
to notice, We're not supposed to talk about this. There's
(19:52):
something wrong with what I just said. We could imagine
a different kind of scenario, same scenario, but a different
kind of response where maybe the would say, oh, because
people come in different colors, just like people have different
hair color or eye color, they have different skin color
and move on. It doesn't have to be a big deal.
But there's so much historical reluctance to it because of
(20:16):
the legacy of racism in our society. It feels like
a very toxic subject, and many people respond they're simply
trying to hush the conversation rather than engage it. I've
been consuming so much information lately, just trying to take
in as much as I can, because I've realized, Okay,
I have a platform, but even if you don't have
a platform, you still need to speak up. You're using
(20:39):
your platform, and it's a wonderful thing that you are.
But to your listeners, everybody has a platform of some kind.
We all have a sphere of influence, and so some
people's sphere is very big, some it's more, you know,
it's smaller. But we all influence other people, and each
of us can think about how am I using my
(21:01):
sphere of influence to bring about change? What are the
next steps on where we can go from here? If
people are wanting to do more well, especially for listeners
who feel like they don't know enough. Certainly, working to
educate yourself is an important first step, and as you said,
there are lots of resources, many more today than they
(21:22):
were in the past. Good books that people can read,
articles things online, social justice education websites, books multicultural and
books that are really useful to read with kids. As
you said, parents are often busy, but even busy parents
sometimes will sit down and read a book with a
young child, And there are lots of them that are
(21:45):
really helpful. And if people are wondering, well, how would
I know which ones are good? There's a great website
called Social Justice Books dot org which can give you
lots of good suggestions educating oneself. Unfortunately, many people don't
really have a good knowledge based about the history of
racism in our society. We of course all have heard
(22:05):
about slavery, but if we if that's all we know,
we're missing a lot of information. And so even contemporary
there's some great books about current events. One of my
favorites that I'm recommending right now is not only mine,
but how to Be an Anti Racist by Abraham Kendy.
It's a great one. Or another one is White Fragility
(22:27):
by Rob D'Angelo. But these are places where people can
start to think about what have my own experience has
been and how have they shaped how I view the world,
and what can I do differently. Gathering with other people
to have those conversations can be really helpful. And someone
might say, well, I live in an all white community,
you know, I want to talk to people of color.
(22:49):
Well there's value and that, of course, but let's not
minimize the benefit that comes from talking to other white
people who are helping to educate each other in this journey. Well,
I just appreciate you taking the time to come on
with me so much. When I heard you're going to
join us, I was like, oh really, And I even
have messaged some friends that I knew were reading your
(23:10):
book and they were geeking out. So it's pretty cool
to have you on. So I just thank you for
the invitation. Yeah, I appreciate it, and I hope you
have a good rest of your day. I'm sure you're
very busy right now. That's indeed. Well, thank you for
your for your courage. Thank you so much for all
you do. Right, Okay, so Christie, let's talk about our
(23:40):
experience at the grocery store in Colorado a couple of
weeks ago, right, I mean I didn't tell you at
the time that thoughts were going through my head. Words
of affirmation are my love language. So I think even
at the grocery store, which you didn't explain to me
in detail what you were thinking and experiencing shopping with
me now that I'm in this recovery phase of my
(24:01):
eating disorder. But I remember turning an aisle going maybe
about to check out or something, and I said something
along the lines of, so, have you noticed how easy
I've been? Right, you're kind of wanting some words of affirmation. Honestly,
I was noticing it in my head. I just didn't
say anything out loud. Words of affirmation is not my
(24:22):
strong point, honestly to other people. So if I had
recognized you needed that, well, but you prompted it, don't worry.
I asked for it. Well, I just wanted to know
if you noticed, and you said, yeah, I noticed. But
it wasn't until later on that we had a real
conversation about it, and other things started to come out
beyond just the anxiety that I gave you anytime we
(24:43):
would grocery shop together. Or eat as a family together.
So I'm gonna sit back and let you share with
people your experience with my eating disorder. Because when you
have something like that going on or disordered eating, whatever
it is for you body image issue is you're altering
your lifestyle and it could potentially affect other people. You
(25:04):
don't realize what you're doing is so annoying affecting and
how it's affecting, and it may be annoying might not
be the word, but I know for me looking back,
I'm like, wow, I was annoying, but I also made
you feel weird about things and how did you second
guessing every little move? But you can talk people through
it just so that they can maybe know what they're
(25:26):
putting others through and not to feel bad about it,
but just to have a full picture understanding of what
other people might be going through. Or if if anybody
listening is living with someone that was like me, or
how's a friend or a loved one that's like me,
they can say, oh, gosh, okay, somebody gets me, like
I'm not alone. Well, just to go back to the
(25:47):
grocery store. I think things were going through my head
and so it wasn't until you brought it up, like, hey,
are you noticing that I'm not being difficult at the
grocery store? And I was in my head, I was like, actually, yes,
yes I am, you know, because as I was picking
out this, that or the other, whether it was a
cheese or a salad, you know, and you are one
who always wanted to read the label, and sometimes you
(26:08):
put things back or grab something extra that was the
same exact thing, but maybe that fell into a category
that you thought was better for my approved list, right
you had you had like lists, and it changed. And
that's the thing, like things would change, and all of
a sudden you're on this kick and then you know
you're gone. We don't see each other for a little
wi and you come back and I'm like, oh, guess
(26:30):
what I have? And You're like, oh, I don't need
that any work, you know, And it's like I can't
keep up with all your things. You know, You're always
like and what was amazing you know one week a
few weeks later is not amazing and more because there's
something different and better and everybody has their own things,
and I think you really do and you really have
just kind of learned what works for you and kind
of your perspective on eating has changed. And I like
(26:54):
the term disordered eating, I guess a little bit better
than eating disorder. Well it's a different stuff, is it.
There's different because well for me and I'm no expert,
I bring the experts on, but from my understanding and
I hadn't really labeled anything as disordered eating until I
did Outweigh with Lisa, and that's the first time I
started seeing. I started following different Instagram accounts and people
(27:15):
that this is their passion and they want to help people.
And so there's anorexia, there's bulimia. There's like clinically diagnosed
bulimia and anorexia. There's times where people may go a
day without eating. Does that mean there are eighty pounds
and they need to be in a clinic somewhere. No,
but they are depriving themselves of food because of a
(27:36):
certain goal that they have or feeling that they have.
Then there's people that throw up maybe once a week,
or there's people to throw up fifty times a day.
So there's different levels of extreme Where Outweigh, we were
speaking to more of the people that were like us,
because we're not again I'm not an expert. You need
(27:57):
to go get and I'll go ahead and give a
disclaimer here, or if you're listening to this, if you
have something extreme like that, our advice would be to
see professional help, because we want you to say help
save your life, because that's what I remember. Julie Cox,
a family friend of ours a long time ago, when
I met with her about when I was throwing up.
She told me, she said, every time you throw up,
(28:19):
it's a slow suicide. And that's stuck with me, but
it's still didn't keep me from doing it. And then
I saw an article somewhere recently too, if you have
thrown up consistently for five years or more, you should
go get your esophagus checked out because of the damage
that you're doing. And for me, I wasn't ever fifty
times a day. I wasn't even ten times a day.
I was more of a every once in a while
(28:41):
if it was really bad, maybe every day for a
few days and then totally stop or whatever. So eating
disorder category disordered, eating body image issues. Body dysmorphia would
be orthorexia, where you are obsessed with ingredients and certain
types of food and healthy things and you're overly healthy,
like it gives you anxiety. If you can't control that,
(29:04):
you try to. I've had all of that, right, I've
had times where I haven't. I didn't know there was
a name to that I have. I need to listen
to time series where I've thrown up. I have times
where I've just controlled every little detail of what I
put in my body, which would be orthorexia. I have,
you know, different trying every different fad diet known to man,
and that was kind of a thing being known for.
(29:24):
What was the next thing I had disordered? Eating? If
I couldn't go to a family dinner and sit down
at the table and just eat what was being served
to me and enjoy it that was made with love,
like from you or Dad or mom, I couldn't do that.
I had to show up with my own food and
my own ingredients and my own thing. So that's and
I would get to the point where I would just
designate you to bring the salad in exactly so that
(29:46):
you could make the salad how you wanted it and
addressing how you wanted it. And you know, I'm a
nine on the indiogram, which is a peacemaker, so I'm
not going to be the one that's going to be
confrontational about things. I'm going to try and just adapt
to whatever is going to keep the piece a little it.
But I think there was a couple of times where
I was like, Okay, this is getting a little bit ridiculous.
And I don't think I knew the extent what was
(30:06):
going on in your mind. I didn't always know all
your battles with the BLULIEMI and the binging and the purging.
So and to clarify some of my story, which I
shared it fully on Outwag episode two, and that is
a four part series that aired on four Things podcast
back in April every Saturday. You can go find the episodes,
but I share my full story there. But I started
(30:27):
throwing up in high school, but then I stopped in college,
and then I didn't throw up at all. I mean,
I didn't realize I had disordered eating, though it's stuck
with me what I was doing from college until mom
died exercising. I was exercising a lot. I was trying
every meal plan. Yes, like that is disordered eating. So
(30:49):
to help again wrap up the definition of that, if
there was any confusion, That's why there is there's different
little projects than just one thing that you were set on.
Then after Mom died, a day after she died, the
throwing up was back, and to me, it blew my
mind because I remember I didn't know the throwing up
had started, but I remember what happened. We pulled over
(31:09):
and you were like, I'm getting a pizza. Huh, I
don't remember this. You got a pizza? You have to
tell me. I don't sure, because basically what happened that
whole I feel like so and well, I remember it
because I was just kind of I wasn't even thinking
about eating, and people were dropping off food at my house,
and you know, Mom was in hospice care and not
(31:29):
doing that good, and then she came to the house,
so we had a lot of food in the house,
but I just didn't feel like eating, and we had
you know, your in laws were constantly going and picking
up juice land for us, and you would only get juice.
You were only drinking fruit, the tiger lily, not even
the apple. Only tastes like water down spin. It just
kind of what it was like, and I was like,
(31:51):
I can't do that. Just get me a Wonder shows
in it at least had almond butter and whatever. So
I'm living off Wonder shows and smoothies and you're just
living off juice. And right after Mom died, I remember
we were driving and you knows that little pizza place
right by my house when we're driving past it, and
you're like, I'm gonna get a pizza, and in my
head I was like, oh, she's going to get a pizza, okay,
(32:12):
And like we picked up the pizza and you you
ate the whole thing. It was a veggie pizza. I
think you probably purged later. I'm sure I did, but
I don't. But I think it started, okay right then,
and I just wasn't aware of what was happening and
that this was like a way that you were coping
with things, and well it started when it started. I mean,
(32:32):
I'm sure that's what I did with the pizza. And
it's weird. I don't remember that, but I'm sure I
remember it. It's a mixture of grief and mourning that
I don't remember, certain things of control, lack of control,
and then well xan x wine, So there's a lot
that's a little bit of a blur. I mean, our
mom had just died, so that's interesting you remember that,
(32:54):
and I'm sure that's exactly what that was. But your
birthday was the day after she died, and in laws
decided to have a little party at the house and
got a food truck. It was this weird thing. Where
did you have a lobster roll? I did, and then
maybe some fries or something. I don't remember, but I
hadn't really eaten all day, and I ate that and
(33:14):
something about me, because again I hadn't thrown up in years,
years and years and years after I ate something about
me that felt wrong. I was trying to explain to
my therapist and even we talked through it on out wagh.
It's it's like, I'm supposed to be grieving right now.
Grieving people don't eat. I need to get rid of this.
So I went over to Kristen's house, your neighbor, and
like their poolhouse, and I threw it up and that's
(33:36):
when it started. Okay. Then I haven't listened to that
part of the out way that you talked about it,
and you and I haven't really talked, I know, because
I felt the same way. It was like it was
a different feeling that I had, like I'm not supposed
to be celebrated today because it was my birthday, and
I was like, how do I celebrate in the middle
of this? You know, But that's where it all. That's
when the throwing up for me came back. Just so
(33:56):
you understand the timeline. Then that added another layer back
into the mix. So not only was I now reintroducing
the purging, but I had binging. Then I had the orthorexia.
I mean, I had it all. I bound you know, everyone,
I've seen all of that, I think in you just
over the years, ever since high school, college when you
(34:17):
used to like try and run marathons and do all
this over exercising kind of under eating over exercising type
of stuff. But just to revisit really quick, back to
what I've noticed just these last few weeks, especially when
you're in Colorado. Well, and it's the last few weeks.
I'll just people hate when I cut people off, but
I just want to paint the picture. She always cut
me off. She's joking. I'm used to it, but I
(34:38):
know I'll get an email like, well, why didn't you
just let your sister talk? But I'm gonna say that
it's the last few weeks for you, because we've been together,
Like I was in Colorado with you, and now you're
here with me in Nashville, so we've been together a
lot more. But I've been putting in the work for
a year and a half now. No I'm saying that
I haven't spent we haven't spent a ton of time together,
obviously because of quarantine and different things. But even an
(35:00):
even last visit at the beginning of the year, when
I was in Nashville, I noticed some differences, like on
us ordering food and what we had and what the
experience was like, you know, because typically it would be
kind of stressful to go to a restaurant with you
because you basically want the waitress to like lay out
every ingredient and how it was cooked and where it
was from and is it this and is it that? Oh,
(35:20):
can you sub this and sub that? And actually I
brought my own dressing, it's in my purse, you know,
or like different things that you would do. And that's
obviously part been part of your journey. But then what
I've noticed, even just recently, obviously the grocery store experience,
was you seemed more free at the grocery store, and
there wasn't a lot of like micromanaging my choices. And
(35:43):
then also that night we were cooking. I remember we
were grilling chicken and I was marinating the chicken, and
I wasn't even like totally aware of my thoughts. But
but then I realized if I started being more aware
of my thoughts as I was marinating the chicken, I
was putting like spices and apple cider, vinegar and olive
oil in a bag and the chicken breasts in there
to marinate. And I was just waiting for you to
(36:04):
want to read my spice star you know, ingredients, or
to come over and double check what kind of you know,
olive oil I was using or oil. Maybe I wasn't
supposed to use olive oil. Maybe you wanted me to
use avocado oil or some other oil or no oil.
I mean, I just it's it's always been so hard
to know. And you did it, and I remember, I
think I brought it up, and I just like, you
know what, I just noticed, I just marinated this chicken
(36:26):
and you were in here. I was sort of trying
to hide the spice bottle from you, and you saw me.
You didn't say anything, and I was like, I think
you're growing, you know, in this area of being free
of a lot of the bondage you've you've been in
over food, and it is it's a heavy thing, but
it's a very real thing. You know, it's probably been
a struggle. You know, there's been times I've cooked things
(36:47):
and I remember you weren't doing dairy and and I
had made something and I was like, she's not really
allergic to dairy. And this sauce is so much better
with like two tablespoons of cream in it. And it
was like a lemon wine sauce and with chicken. And
you took one bite of it. This was years ago,
and then you went, oh, my gosh, it's there dairy
and this it was like you were mad at me
for what I had made. And you know, in our family,
(37:09):
cooking is sort of a love language. Like that's kind
of what our our dad, you know, how he showed
love he cooked for people. But then when you're cooking
for people and then someone's always micromanaging or it's not
the right thing or whatever. And if you're like truly
allergic to something, that's you know, that's a total different issue,
but your needs and everything were constantly changing, and there's
(37:31):
self anybody could like and nobody could really keep up. Um,
So to see you growing through it, I think it
is encouraging and give give people hope out there for
what the steps are that are necessary to just break
free from the bondage that some people feel under an
over food body issues. I mean all of those things,
(37:52):
those those have been your things. And I don't know
why that is my thing because when I started therapy
in high school after told mom I had started throwing up,
they would pinpoint it to, well, your dad left when
you were younger, and this is how you're coping with it,
and maybe that is the case. I don't know for
(38:13):
sure that I buy fully into that now, but I
really feel like I started dieting at such a young age.
What I've learned is that when you start to restrict,
your brain is starving and it starts to want more.
So then you start eating more when you can't control it,
and then you over eat and then some people are like, well,
I got to figure out how to get rid of this,
(38:33):
and then they start purging, and then that cycle begins,
and then it's also my therapist has told me too.
It's behaviors like binging. Their depressants for the central nervous system,
sort of like alcohol. They can create a numbing feeling,
especially and if anybody has been caught in that mindless
eating cycle, you almost feel like it's an out of
body experience. When you throw up. There's a certain euphoric
(38:56):
feeling that comes along with it, and then you're sort
of as associated from reality in that world, and there
there's a lot of feelings that are either felt and
then not felt with it. So it's like this great combo.
And for me, whatever I was using that to cope
with either the dad's stuff or why I use dieting,
(39:17):
I don't know. But you never started dieting at a
young age because Dad left you too. So then I thought, well,
why didn't my sister end up with eating disorders or
disordered eating or issues. I think I think I just
started trying to perform certain ways, like if I just
make these decisions and and don't do these things and
be you know, even though I failed in different ways.
(39:39):
I think on the outside, I just wanted to look
like I had everything together. Where I was on the inside,
I really was falling apart, no one could know, you know,
and I couldn't ever show Dad I was angry because
if I showed him I was angry, then he might
not ever come back, and you know which he didn't.
But to mom, you're trying. I was trying to perform,
perform to in a in a sense. Yeah, okay, so,
(40:01):
and that's something I've always struggled with, and I think
we might get into that later, like like, what is
the lie you've always believed and when did it enter in? Yeah,
we'll do that in the third thing. But did you
ever diet at a young age? I don't remember. You
must seem like I don't have enough self control for that.
But that's that's the thing. I think that again food,
I just like food. Well, but there's time. Well no,
(40:24):
but here's my thought on that. Yes, there's the angle
of like I could have used it as a way
to deal with the dad's stuff, but also neurologically, there's
just some stuff I messed up, possibly by starting to
diet so young, and whatever caused me to do that.
In securities, diet culture, it's everywhere. When Mom was doing
(40:45):
things too at the time, like in the nineties, there
was all the butter with the spray butter. I used
to use half a bottle of spray butter on a
waffle and I was like, I'm so healthy right now,
this is fat free. Get the spray, just open it
for it there. And we did have a family that
lived with us for a little bit because they were anyway,
it doesn't really matter, but they lived with us for
(41:07):
a little bit. I think I was you were gone,
but I was probably eight or ninth grade, and the
mom ate a certain way. That's when diet foods were
first brought into our house, and I think I was
exposed to that, and so I think as moms we
have to be super careful with our kids about not
putting them through any sort of dieting because that is
(41:30):
going to mess them up long term down the line.
And I wish that someone did feel like Mom was like, Amy,
you should know that free better. But I don't think
she was like, no, Amy, don't worry about that. Love
your body, you don't need that. I think it was
there was just was no conversation about it. You want
fat free snack walls, Okay, we'll buy them. And then
she would go through times where she would kind of
(41:51):
make those like weird cabbage soups, and she would do
she did the Master Clans. Remember when she did the
lemon juice cay in and maple syrup for ten Days? Yes,
and apple cider vinegar. Yeah, maybe I don't remember. But
so many people have emailed in after listening to the
Outweigh series and said that their moms passed on to
(42:16):
them the weight watchers culture, the points, the and if
you do any of that. I'm not knocking a particular brand,
so don't at me. I'm just saying that was very
popular at the time, and so and moms because of
how they grew up and it was just part of
the time. I think they didn't know any better and
they're like, oh well, I'll just put my kid on points,
(42:36):
and then it creates this whole messed up thing and
then they have to weigh themselves. And it's just not
it's such a bigger picture that I'm being exposed to
with that we have as a society or fat phobic
and we all have been told this is the body
type you're supposed to look like, which is not attainable
for most of society, and it's probably airbrushed correct and
(43:00):
then some people, yes, are naturally like that, or some
people are literally starving themselves to get there, but you
don't know that. You just see them on a magazine
and then you think, we'll shoot, that's how I'm supposed
to look, So what do I need to do to
get that? But I am personally seeing a shift, and
maybe it's because of what I'm surrounding myself with. But
I'm thankful for the people that are putting themselves out
(43:20):
there and are super wise and educated in this area.
There's so many different things to be passionate about, but
there is a crop of dietitians and leaders in that
that are kind of shunning the old ways of nutrition
work and dietitian work, of like, hey, this is what
we need to be focusing on now. We don't need
(43:41):
to necessarily tell someone to lose weight just because they
don't weigh what this other person weighs. Weight does not
equal health, and for so long we've been told that
weight equals health. Thank you for giving an update on
where I was and where I am now, because again,
like you said, it can be encouragement to others. It
doesn't happen overnight. Again, I started really putting in the
(44:03):
work and quit purging a year and a half ago.
But it's taken that long putting in the work to
where I can go to the grocery store and not
have anxiety, or I can go to a restaurant and
not be obnoxious. Yeah, no, it's been I see a
lot of growth. So I would say people can trust
the insight that you give on on your path to
get there.
Okay, cast up broth than a little food for yourself life.
Oh that's pretty but hey, that's pretty beautiful. Thank you
(00:22):
that for a little month. Four. Okay, the next thing
I want to get into is a touch treat. Explain
to people what that is. My husband was in the
Air Force for twelve years and I was talking to
him one time about for lost in a while and
(00:43):
my son were hiking in Colorado, and my son was
asking a bunch of different questions, and I remember having
a similar thought of there's no way I would be
able to get us back to where we started. I
just wouldn't. And my husband's like, sure, you just have
to find a point of reference, wouldn't picture You know
it's gonna be this tree is gonna be that are
We're gonna make it a point of reference. So I
(01:05):
feel like when I was in that situation, I just
kind of let my husband lead because that's his expertise
and I trust him. And I'm horrible with directions and
point of reference. So I feel like sometimes in life,
not that exact scenario obviously, but and maybe it's not
(01:26):
even my husband leading, but I almost don't trust myself
because I won't have my what's what I go back
to with what is true? Because I'm second guesting all
the time. Yes, I feel that. I think everybody feels.
That feels very familiar to me. So my entire hobby
(01:49):
is just watching really bad TV. Okay, Like the level
of TV that I watch is like, if you look
at the television, you try to find what is the
least productive thing you can do with your brain. That's
what I watch, Like Bravo is my life. Okay, So
it's embarrassing. Actually, So it's watching this weird show one
day about I think it was called Survivor Man. It
(02:10):
was like a show about this guy who goes out
into the woods on purpose and he gets really lost
and then the whole show is about him finding his
way out. Okay, So it's fascinating this show and watching it,
and he explains to the audience that when someone gets
very lost in the woods, the main goal is to
be found, right, to be found, and the best way
(02:31):
to be found is to stay in one place. But
if you are lost in the woods, you can't stay
in one place for long because you have to go
out and get food and water and like whatever you
need to survive. So this is a problem. You have
to stay in one place and not stay in one place, okay.
So his solution was that if you're lost in the woods,
you have to find a touch tree. And what a
(02:51):
touch tree is is it's like a huge, recognizable tree
that you can go out into the woods each day
but come back to over and over again, right because
it's recognizable enough for you to find it, so you
can go out and come back, and go out and
come back. And this perpetual returning means that you can
(03:14):
never get too far gone. So what this made me
think of was that in my life, I have been
lost in the woods so many times. And every time
I think about those times in my life that I've
been lost, I can trace it back to my making
something outside of my deepest, truest self, my touch strength,
like a person a relationship and identity um an old identity, uh, dogma, religion,
(03:40):
outer ideas of success, something that I'm looking to outside
of this to find my way home. And it never
ever works, right. It's always how we remain confused or lost.
It's like this morning, this is I'm just thinking about
this as I'm speaking, so abby and I have this
friend come over to help us to a workout this morning.
(04:01):
We did it doing this crazy thing where we had
to balance in front of each other, right, and she said,
find a point of reference, find a study point of reference.
I mean, I were looking at each other and we
could not stay on our feet, right because I'm shaking,
she's shaking, like, so we're both falling back and forth.
And of course my ridiculous mind can't just be like
(04:22):
we're working out. So in my head, I'm like, this
is a metaphor for relationships, right, Each person has to
find their own point of reference, no matter how much
in love with each other you are, because when you
look at each other to be the point of reference,
you can't always study each other, right, That's not our
job in a relationship. So the idea of the touch
(04:43):
trae is that the only thing that's been consistently wise,
consistently returned me to peace and truth is making my
deepest self in the quiet, my touch tree. Okay, The
one place that I can always find the truth, that
I can always find my next right move is when
I get quiet enough to turn off all the outer
(05:03):
voices in the entire world and I sit with myself
in the stillness, right, and then when you do that something,
when you do that long enough, we just all have
this inner voice, right, and we lose touch with it
because number one, we're so used to pleasing other people,
and number two, the voices on the outside are so loud.
So when we practice returning to this thing inside of us,
(05:23):
we find that thing that is always speaking to us.
And some people call it God, and some people call
it spirit, and some people call intuition, and some people
call it gut instinct. It doesn't matter what you call it.
But everybody who I know who is living a unique
shooting star of a life that they were meant to live,
is somebody who knows how to call it, regardless of
what they call it. How long did it take you
(05:44):
to find that in the world, Because I don't think
you someone can listen to this right now and think, oh, okay,
I need to be my own point of reference. So
that's where i' gonna start doing, Like I don't think
it just happens or addicted to so many things, right,
And I think when I started to become my point
of reference was in sobriety, right. I mean, nobody who's
(06:05):
numbing themselves out will ever become their own point of reference, right,
because you're what you're doing is you're literally numbing that voice.
So that's the first step. Right. If you're constantly numbing
or deflecting, then you know that can take you freaking
years to figure out how to stop doing that. Okay,
but that's step one. And then it actually is really,
really unbelievably easy. Now I shouldn't say it's easy it's simple.
(06:27):
It's actually not easy, okay, because I think that sitting
with yourself in the stillness is the hardest thing to
do in the world. That's why nobody does it. I mean,
people start entire wars because they can't sit with themselves
in the stillness, right, like being alone with yourself. It's
like we're those snow globes and we just keep ourselves
shaken up right all the time because we don't want
to see the thing, the little thing at the center
(06:49):
of the snow globe, because the thing at the center
of the snow globe is the truth, and we get
really still, that thing always pops up, right. It's that
thing that we have to heal from our past that
we haven't faced. It's that person we have to have
a conversation with It's that addiction we have that we're
you know, pretending that we don't have. It's a it's
a scary, hard truth, which is why so few of
(07:10):
us want to pretend that we don't know how to
return to ourselves because it's super simple but not easy. Gosh,
with a pandemic which we have no memo for at
all whatsoever. But so many people were forced to sit
with themselves and let the snow settle. And you know
a lot of people either yeah, we're continue the numbing,
(07:31):
or they realized, Okay, this is a time where I
can maybe put in the work. But a lot I
feel like in our home, a lot of stuff came
up because suddenly we're very busy, go go go, you know,
not necessarily what I think the pandemic is off for
my family. And I'll just share this because maybe it
feels like our own family tech tree but becoming more
of a family focused unit instead. And I've heard Burnee
(07:56):
Brown talk about it, of which variety. Now that I
mentioned her name pops the head too. She's when you
bring up sobriety, She's said before. I heard her Tim
Ferris's podcast saying that sobriety is her superpower. So whatever
you're numbing yourself with, maybe it's not alcohol, but once
you get rid of that, you feel like your powers back.
(08:16):
But you know, shut about kid focused families, parent focused
families and family focused. And you know, for us, we
had to get still. It caused a pandemic, caused us
to get still enough to realize we are not family focused,
really parent focused, your kids focused. We were just like
shifting whichever needed to get done, focused, focused out, or
(08:39):
focused just whatever way the wind blows. We're putting out
fires all day. And now we've sat with it, and
I feel like our family globe has settled, like well ship,
like we we don't even know what we're doing, who
we are or were doing? What? What do we want
to be together? So that's yeah, okay, that's so you're
(09:03):
stuck in my head is you're talking of, like that's
what's happened to our family, our snow globe has settled,
and now we're trying to figure out what to do
with what's been revealed. It's so good, sister, because that's
what happens to all of us. And then and then
when you when you're what you're talking about is slowing
down enough to be intentional too. It's just like we
end up just unintentional, just whatever comes to us we do.
(09:27):
You know. It's like and once we did. Once we
we don't take the time to stop and think, no,
what do I want for this family? Like not what
does the world want for me? But what do I
want for this family? Right? Because if we don't stop
and get intentional about it, the world will eat us up.
The demands from the world will eat us up. And
especially as parents, the world will tell us, Oh, they
(09:48):
have to be this, they have to be this, they
have to be infordunite and activities, they have to be
doing like the things that we don't even stop to think. Wait,
is that success? Is that how we measure success as
a family? And I think you're right at this pandemic
all the hell and it has I mean, the chaos
at his Reek. It is also forcing us all to
ask ourselves what do we want in the after? And
(10:11):
I think people are going to have different priorities, I hope,
and I think if you take the time to sit
with it, that's what I need to work on. It
is getting in touch with my my touch dream. Yeah,
me instead of like everything else and trusting other people
to guide me, because I feel like I will get
myself lost, right, So that's going to take work. Which,
by the way, before we wrap this thing, before we
(10:33):
get into some things that you're thankful for. In a
listener question, you mentioned Bramo and Trashy. My therapist has
told me, has kindly informed me that that stuff for
me is my self care. Thank you to your therapist
in the world, because that's one of the things that
actually I do it just it does that for me.
(10:56):
Self care looks different for so many different people, and
self care for me is Real Housewives that really helps. Listen, yes,
and you know what, it's just I mean, my family
makes fun of me to know end listen, Like all
day all I do is like trying to you know,
foster sisterhood and feminism. And then I watched the housewives
tear each other up all night. But here's the thing.
I don't have anything left. I quit drinking, I quit ning,
(11:20):
I quit everything. I need something to turn this hamster
wheel of a brain off at night, and real housewives
do it. Oprah had written an article about how you
know she's been journaling for years like years. But I
guess you took a break where she stepped away from it,
(11:42):
not intentionally, life just got busy. But I want to
read to you. I'm just gonna READO word for word.
I'm gonna read it like Oprah wrote it, and that
way I don't mess anything up. But it's called what
Oprah Knows for sure about gratitude? How do you find this?
Where you just? I was looking about because I'm we
were talking about the Gratitude Challenge and I was looking
(12:02):
for a few things. And then I realized growing up
my mom watching Oprah, she talked about gratitude all the time.
So like Google, I was like, oh, are you a
regular at oprah dot com? I will say her little
ww tour that she's on right now where she's got
all these and she's putting them up on her podcast
like you don't even have to be there and then
Cheer the whole Cheer people they were there and she
(12:23):
had she called Jerry up well, Monica and Jerry and
Gavy like they all went up there and she had
Jerry do Matt talk to the crowd. If y'all have
not watched Cheer yet, you need to, like it's so good.
I want to try to get Monica. I mean, we
had Monica on the Bobby Bone Show, but I would
love to get anybody from Cheer to come on the
(12:44):
podcast too. So back to the post that Oprah put up.
What Oprah knows for sure about gratitude? She said, for years,
I've been advocating the power and pleasure of being grateful.
I kept a gratitude journal for a full decade without
fail and urged you all to do the same. Then
life got busy, my schedule overwhelmed me. I still opened
(13:05):
my journal some nights, but my ritual of writing down
five things I was grateful for every day started slipping away.
Here's what I was grateful for on October twelfth, six
So yeah, oprahsman on the gratitude train way longer than us,
and she was doing like a four things with a bonus. Okay,
(13:27):
here's over spy things. First thing, a run around Florida's
Fisher Island with a slight breeze that kept me cool.
Second thing, eating cold melon on a bench in the sun.
Third thing along and hilarious chat with Gayale about her
blind date with Mr potato Head. Four survey in a
cone so sweet that I literally licked my finger. Fifth thing,
(13:49):
Maya Angelo calling to read me a new poem? Okay,
name drop Oprah, pick that one up off the floor.
Nice flex there, um. But yeah, that's so this was.
I'm gonna keep reading though. This is us talking now,
but I want to go back to finish it, she
said a few years ago, when I came across that
(14:09):
journal entry, I wondered why I no longer felt the
joy of simple moments. Since nineteen ninety six, I had
accumulated more wealth, more responsibility, more possessions, Everything, it seemed,
had grown exponentially, except my happiness. How had I, with
all my options and opportunities, become one of those people
(14:30):
who never had time to feel delight. I was stretched
in so many directions. I wasn't feeling much of anything.
Too busy doing. But the truth is I was busy
in n s too. I just made gratitude at daily priority.
I went through the day looking for things to be
grateful for, and something always showed up boom. And so
(14:54):
that is what we're hopeful for, at least Mary and
I are with the gratitude challenge, not only for ourselves
but for you. Is that you'll show up and make
gratitude of priority and that it'll benefit you in ways
that you didn't know. And I think that list is
a great reminder and you guys, you've done a great
job sharing with your listeners. Like, it doesn't have to
(15:15):
be these like huge things every day. It could be
like a simple phone call with your friend or what
was that ice cream? I mean something account there you go.
I mean it doesn't have to be I mean, we
all know we're not gonna have my calling us or
you know, a new poem. But yeah, it could be
(15:36):
simple like, yeah, did you get a conversation with a friend?
Like I got to talk to my sister the other
day and it was a great little catchup chat and
she had some stuff going on that I had no idea,
but I was thankful that she took the time to
share it with me, and that way I knew how
I could better be there for her because I had
no idea that that was happening, and so I was
(15:56):
thankful for that. And yeah, if you look for it,
things will show up and it really can be simple.
So shout out to Oprah who has been on the
gratitude drain for a long time. But I am thankful
for this entry because it really showed. I mean, this
is an example where she knew she felt more happiness
than she did even when she had more wealth, more things,
more stuff going on, more success, but she wasn't she
(16:20):
wasn't recognizing her gratitude. So take note from Oprah herself. Okay,
Dr Tatum, super excited to have you here with us
(16:41):
for this important time and conversation. And with that, a
conversation seems to be something that is a word I
have over and over of I need to be having
conversations with my kids, I need to be having conversations
with my friends. So I would like to hear from you,
how do we start these conversations. When white people are
(17:02):
talking to their white friends, often it is not a
topic they're talking about very much on except when something
like what's happening right now. You know, they've seen George
Floyd's murder on the news, Um, the protests are happening.
It's hard not to be talking about these questions. What
(17:23):
I find is that many of my white students over
the years in the places where I've taught, and many
of the people who come to my workshops have lived
a long time without much practice at having these conversations,
and so when they do want to have the conversations,
it feels very awkward, in part because they've grown up thinking,
(17:44):
I'm not supposed to mention race, I'm not supposed to
notice race, and so it almost feels like you're breaking
a societal will. People tell me that that's how they
sometimes feel, and they worry very much that they might
say or do the wrong thing, that it might be
perceived by someone else as saying something racially prejudiced, or
(18:07):
you know, they might just make some mistakes that cause
awkwardness and a conversation. That's especially true if they're talking
to a person of color, but even if it's a
white person talking to another white person, there may be
fear about that. But it's not hard to start a
conversation to simply say, I've been watching the news. It's
very upsetting to me. I wonder how you feel about
(18:28):
what you're saying. Kids, things are going to be different
depending on their age and what information they can handle.
But I could see how, yeah, that could be an
easy way to just see where someone is and their
thoughts and then breaking that what we were raised with,
which is the silence. I think you're right, you know,
when we how we're told so long, you know, just
(18:49):
be kind to people, don't have hate in your heart,
don't see color. People meant well. But actually that's what
we need to unlearn. Yes, I sometimes used as an
example a conversation with a preschooler. Let's imagine there's a
white parent with a white child, and they're in a
grocery store, and maybe they live in a largely white community,
(19:11):
so it's unusual to encounter a person of color. And
so let's imagine this three year old is in the
grocery store with mom and spots a dark skinned person.
That child might out of curiosity, saying, Mom, look at
that person, why is their skin so dark? And you
(19:31):
can imagine that that mom or dad might be embarrassed
in that moment, and the response might be to say,
you know, and not to answer the question, but simply
to silence the child in what feels like an awkward moment.
But the message to the child is we're not supposed
to notice, We're not supposed to talk about this. There's
(19:52):
something wrong with what I just said. We could imagine
a different kind of scenario, same scenario, but a different
kind of response where maybe the would say, oh, because
people come in different colors, just like people have different
hair color or eye color, they have different skin color
and move on. It doesn't have to be a big deal.
But there's so much historical reluctance to it because of
(20:16):
the legacy of racism in our society. It feels like
a very toxic subject, and many people respond they're simply
trying to hush the conversation rather than engage it. I've
been consuming so much information lately, just trying to take
in as much as I can, because I've realized, Okay,
I have a platform, but even if you don't have
a platform, you still need to speak up. You're using
(20:39):
your platform, and it's a wonderful thing that you are.
But to your listeners, everybody has a platform of some kind.
We all have a sphere of influence, and so some
people's sphere is very big, some it's more, you know,
it's smaller. But we all influence other people, and each
of us can think about how am I using my
(21:01):
sphere of influence to bring about change? What are the
next steps on where we can go from here? If
people are wanting to do more well, especially for listeners
who feel like they don't know enough. Certainly, working to
educate yourself is an important first step, and as you said,
there are lots of resources, many more today than they
(21:22):
were in the past. Good books that people can read,
articles things online, social justice education websites, books multicultural and
books that are really useful to read with kids. As
you said, parents are often busy, but even busy parents
sometimes will sit down and read a book with a
young child, And there are lots of them that are
(21:45):
really helpful. And if people are wondering, well, how would
I know which ones are good? There's a great website
called Social Justice Books dot org which can give you
lots of good suggestions educating oneself. Unfortunately, many people don't
really have a good knowledge based about the history of
racism in our society. We of course all have heard
(22:05):
about slavery, but if we if that's all we know,
we're missing a lot of information. And so even contemporary
there's some great books about current events. One of my
favorites that I'm recommending right now is not only mine,
but how to Be an Anti Racist by Abraham Kendy.
It's a great one. Or another one is White Fragility
(22:27):
by Rob D'Angelo. But these are places where people can
start to think about what have my own experience has
been and how have they shaped how I view the world,
and what can I do differently. Gathering with other people
to have those conversations can be really helpful. And someone
might say, well, I live in an all white community,
you know, I want to talk to people of color.
(22:49):
Well there's value and that, of course, but let's not
minimize the benefit that comes from talking to other white
people who are helping to educate each other in this journey. Well,
I just appreciate you taking the time to come on
with me so much. When I heard you're going to
join us, I was like, oh really, And I even
have messaged some friends that I knew were reading your
(23:10):
book and they were geeking out. So it's pretty cool
to have you on. So I just thank you for
the invitation. Yeah, I appreciate it, and I hope you
have a good rest of your day. I'm sure you're
very busy right now. That's indeed. Well, thank you for
your for your courage. Thank you so much for all
you do. Right, Okay, so Christie, let's talk about our
(23:40):
experience at the grocery store in Colorado a couple of
weeks ago, right, I mean I didn't tell you at
the time that thoughts were going through my head. Words
of affirmation are my love language. So I think even
at the grocery store, which you didn't explain to me
in detail what you were thinking and experiencing shopping with
me now that I'm in this recovery phase of my
(24:01):
eating disorder. But I remember turning an aisle going maybe
about to check out or something, and I said something
along the lines of, so, have you noticed how easy
I've been? Right, you're kind of wanting some words of affirmation. Honestly,
I was noticing it in my head. I just didn't
say anything out loud. Words of affirmation is not my
(24:22):
strong point, honestly to other people. So if I had
recognized you needed that, well, but you prompted it, don't worry.
I asked for it. Well, I just wanted to know
if you noticed, and you said, yeah, I noticed. But
it wasn't until later on that we had a real
conversation about it, and other things started to come out
beyond just the anxiety that I gave you anytime we
(24:43):
would grocery shop together. Or eat as a family together.
So I'm gonna sit back and let you share with
people your experience with my eating disorder. Because when you
have something like that going on or disordered eating, whatever
it is for you body image issue is you're altering
your lifestyle and it could potentially affect other people. You
(25:04):
don't realize what you're doing is so annoying affecting and
how it's affecting, and it may be annoying might not
be the word, but I know for me looking back,
I'm like, wow, I was annoying, but I also made
you feel weird about things and how did you second
guessing every little move? But you can talk people through
it just so that they can maybe know what they're
(25:26):
putting others through and not to feel bad about it,
but just to have a full picture understanding of what
other people might be going through. Or if if anybody
listening is living with someone that was like me, or
how's a friend or a loved one that's like me,
they can say, oh, gosh, okay, somebody gets me, like
I'm not alone. Well, just to go back to the
(25:47):
grocery store. I think things were going through my head
and so it wasn't until you brought it up, like, hey,
are you noticing that I'm not being difficult at the
grocery store? And I was in my head, I was like, actually, yes,
yes I am, you know, because as I was picking
out this, that or the other, whether it was a
cheese or a salad, you know, and you are one
who always wanted to read the label, and sometimes you
(26:08):
put things back or grab something extra that was the
same exact thing, but maybe that fell into a category
that you thought was better for my approved list, right
you had you had like lists, and it changed. And
that's the thing, like things would change, and all of
a sudden you're on this kick and then you know
you're gone. We don't see each other for a little
wi and you come back and I'm like, oh, guess
(26:30):
what I have? And You're like, oh, I don't need
that any work, you know, And it's like I can't
keep up with all your things. You know, You're always
like and what was amazing you know one week a
few weeks later is not amazing and more because there's
something different and better and everybody has their own things,
and I think you really do and you really have
just kind of learned what works for you and kind
of your perspective on eating has changed. And I like
(26:54):
the term disordered eating, I guess a little bit better
than eating disorder. Well it's a different stuff, is it.
There's different because well for me and I'm no expert,
I bring the experts on, but from my understanding and
I hadn't really labeled anything as disordered eating until I
did Outweigh with Lisa, and that's the first time I
started seeing. I started following different Instagram accounts and people
(27:15):
that this is their passion and they want to help people.
And so there's anorexia, there's bulimia. There's like clinically diagnosed
bulimia and anorexia. There's times where people may go a
day without eating. Does that mean there are eighty pounds
and they need to be in a clinic somewhere. No,
but they are depriving themselves of food because of a
(27:36):
certain goal that they have or feeling that they have.
Then there's people that throw up maybe once a week,
or there's people to throw up fifty times a day.
So there's different levels of extreme Where Outweigh, we were
speaking to more of the people that were like us,
because we're not again I'm not an expert. You need
(27:57):
to go get and I'll go ahead and give a
disclaimer here, or if you're listening to this, if you
have something extreme like that, our advice would be to
see professional help, because we want you to say help
save your life, because that's what I remember. Julie Cox,
a family friend of ours a long time ago, when
I met with her about when I was throwing up.
She told me, she said, every time you throw up,
(28:19):
it's a slow suicide. And that's stuck with me, but
it's still didn't keep me from doing it. And then
I saw an article somewhere recently too, if you have
thrown up consistently for five years or more, you should
go get your esophagus checked out because of the damage
that you're doing. And for me, I wasn't ever fifty
times a day. I wasn't even ten times a day.
I was more of a every once in a while
(28:41):
if it was really bad, maybe every day for a
few days and then totally stop or whatever. So eating
disorder category disordered, eating body image issues. Body dysmorphia would
be orthorexia, where you are obsessed with ingredients and certain
types of food and healthy things and you're overly healthy,
like it gives you anxiety. If you can't control that,
(29:04):
you try to. I've had all of that, right, I've
had times where I haven't. I didn't know there was
a name to that I have. I need to listen
to time series where I've thrown up. I have times
where I've just controlled every little detail of what I
put in my body, which would be orthorexia. I have,
you know, different trying every different fad diet known to man,
and that was kind of a thing being known for.
(29:24):
What was the next thing I had disordered? Eating? If
I couldn't go to a family dinner and sit down
at the table and just eat what was being served
to me and enjoy it that was made with love,
like from you or Dad or mom, I couldn't do that.
I had to show up with my own food and
my own ingredients and my own thing. So that's and
I would get to the point where I would just
designate you to bring the salad in exactly so that
(29:46):
you could make the salad how you wanted it and
addressing how you wanted it. And you know, I'm a
nine on the indiogram, which is a peacemaker, so I'm
not going to be the one that's going to be
confrontational about things. I'm going to try and just adapt
to whatever is going to keep the piece a little it.
But I think there was a couple of times where
I was like, Okay, this is getting a little bit ridiculous.
And I don't think I knew the extent what was
(30:06):
going on in your mind. I didn't always know all
your battles with the BLULIEMI and the binging and the purging.
So and to clarify some of my story, which I
shared it fully on Outwag episode two, and that is
a four part series that aired on four Things podcast
back in April every Saturday. You can go find the episodes,
but I share my full story there. But I started
(30:27):
throwing up in high school, but then I stopped in college,
and then I didn't throw up at all. I mean,
I didn't realize I had disordered eating, though it's stuck
with me what I was doing from college until mom
died exercising. I was exercising a lot. I was trying
every meal plan. Yes, like that is disordered eating. So
(30:49):
to help again wrap up the definition of that, if
there was any confusion, That's why there is there's different
little projects than just one thing that you were set on.
Then after Mom died, a day after she died, the
throwing up was back, and to me, it blew my
mind because I remember I didn't know the throwing up
had started, but I remember what happened. We pulled over
(31:09):
and you were like, I'm getting a pizza. Huh, I
don't remember this. You got a pizza? You have to
tell me. I don't sure, because basically what happened that
whole I feel like so and well, I remember it
because I was just kind of I wasn't even thinking
about eating, and people were dropping off food at my house,
and you know, Mom was in hospice care and not
(31:29):
doing that good, and then she came to the house,
so we had a lot of food in the house,
but I just didn't feel like eating, and we had
you know, your in laws were constantly going and picking
up juice land for us, and you would only get juice.
You were only drinking fruit, the tiger lily, not even
the apple. Only tastes like water down spin. It just
kind of what it was like, and I was like,
(31:51):
I can't do that. Just get me a Wonder shows
in it at least had almond butter and whatever. So
I'm living off Wonder shows and smoothies and you're just
living off juice. And right after Mom died, I remember
we were driving and you knows that little pizza place
right by my house when we're driving past it, and
you're like, I'm gonna get a pizza, and in my
head I was like, oh, she's going to get a pizza, okay,
(32:12):
And like we picked up the pizza and you you
ate the whole thing. It was a veggie pizza. I
think you probably purged later. I'm sure I did, but
I don't. But I think it started, okay right then,
and I just wasn't aware of what was happening and
that this was like a way that you were coping
with things, and well it started when it started. I mean,
(32:32):
I'm sure that's what I did with the pizza. And
it's weird. I don't remember that, but I'm sure I
remember it. It's a mixture of grief and mourning that
I don't remember, certain things of control, lack of control,
and then well xan x wine, So there's a lot
that's a little bit of a blur. I mean, our
mom had just died, so that's interesting you remember that,
(32:54):
and I'm sure that's exactly what that was. But your
birthday was the day after she died, and in laws
decided to have a little party at the house and
got a food truck. It was this weird thing. Where
did you have a lobster roll? I did, and then
maybe some fries or something. I don't remember, but I
hadn't really eaten all day, and I ate that and
(33:14):
something about me, because again I hadn't thrown up in years,
years and years and years after I ate something about
me that felt wrong. I was trying to explain to
my therapist and even we talked through it on out wagh.
It's it's like, I'm supposed to be grieving right now.
Grieving people don't eat. I need to get rid of this.
So I went over to Kristen's house, your neighbor, and
like their poolhouse, and I threw it up and that's
(33:36):
when it started. Okay. Then I haven't listened to that
part of the out way that you talked about it,
and you and I haven't really talked, I know, because
I felt the same way. It was like it was
a different feeling that I had, like I'm not supposed
to be celebrated today because it was my birthday, and
I was like, how do I celebrate in the middle
of this? You know, But that's where it all. That's
when the throwing up for me came back. Just so
(33:56):
you understand the timeline. Then that added another layer back
into the mix. So not only was I now reintroducing
the purging, but I had binging. Then I had the orthorexia.
I mean, I had it all. I bound you know, everyone,
I've seen all of that, I think in you just
over the years, ever since high school, college when you
(34:17):
used to like try and run marathons and do all
this over exercising kind of under eating over exercising type
of stuff. But just to revisit really quick, back to
what I've noticed just these last few weeks, especially when
you're in Colorado. Well, and it's the last few weeks.
I'll just people hate when I cut people off, but
I just want to paint the picture. She always cut
me off. She's joking. I'm used to it, but I
(34:38):
know I'll get an email like, well, why didn't you
just let your sister talk? But I'm gonna say that
it's the last few weeks for you, because we've been together,
Like I was in Colorado with you, and now you're
here with me in Nashville, so we've been together a
lot more. But I've been putting in the work for
a year and a half now. No I'm saying that
I haven't spent we haven't spent a ton of time together,
obviously because of quarantine and different things. But even an
(35:00):
even last visit at the beginning of the year, when
I was in Nashville, I noticed some differences, like on
us ordering food and what we had and what the
experience was like, you know, because typically it would be
kind of stressful to go to a restaurant with you
because you basically want the waitress to like lay out
every ingredient and how it was cooked and where it
was from and is it this and is it that? Oh,
(35:20):
can you sub this and sub that? And actually I
brought my own dressing, it's in my purse, you know,
or like different things that you would do. And that's
obviously part been part of your journey. But then what
I've noticed, even just recently, obviously the grocery store experience,
was you seemed more free at the grocery store, and
there wasn't a lot of like micromanaging my choices. And
(35:43):
then also that night we were cooking. I remember we
were grilling chicken and I was marinating the chicken, and
I wasn't even like totally aware of my thoughts. But
but then I realized if I started being more aware
of my thoughts as I was marinating the chicken, I
was putting like spices and apple cider, vinegar and olive
oil in a bag and the chicken breasts in there
to marinate. And I was just waiting for you to
(36:04):
want to read my spice star you know, ingredients, or
to come over and double check what kind of you know,
olive oil I was using or oil. Maybe I wasn't
supposed to use olive oil. Maybe you wanted me to
use avocado oil or some other oil or no oil.
I mean, I just it's it's always been so hard
to know. And you did it, and I remember, I
think I brought it up, and I just like, you
know what, I just noticed, I just marinated this chicken
(36:26):
and you were in here. I was sort of trying
to hide the spice bottle from you, and you saw me.
You didn't say anything, and I was like, I think
you're growing, you know, in this area of being free
of a lot of the bondage you've you've been in
over food, and it is it's a heavy thing, but
it's a very real thing. You know, it's probably been
a struggle. You know, there's been times I've cooked things
(36:47):
and I remember you weren't doing dairy and and I
had made something and I was like, she's not really
allergic to dairy. And this sauce is so much better
with like two tablespoons of cream in it. And it
was like a lemon wine sauce and with chicken. And
you took one bite of it. This was years ago,
and then you went, oh, my gosh, it's there dairy
and this it was like you were mad at me
for what I had made. And you know, in our family,
(37:09):
cooking is sort of a love language. Like that's kind
of what our our dad, you know, how he showed
love he cooked for people. But then when you're cooking
for people and then someone's always micromanaging or it's not
the right thing or whatever. And if you're like truly
allergic to something, that's you know, that's a total different issue,
but your needs and everything were constantly changing, and there's
(37:31):
self anybody could like and nobody could really keep up. Um,
So to see you growing through it, I think it
is encouraging and give give people hope out there for
what the steps are that are necessary to just break
free from the bondage that some people feel under an
over food body issues. I mean all of those things,
(37:52):
those those have been your things. And I don't know
why that is my thing because when I started therapy
in high school after told mom I had started throwing up,
they would pinpoint it to, well, your dad left when
you were younger, and this is how you're coping with it,
and maybe that is the case. I don't know for
(38:13):
sure that I buy fully into that now, but I
really feel like I started dieting at such a young age.
What I've learned is that when you start to restrict,
your brain is starving and it starts to want more.
So then you start eating more when you can't control it,
and then you over eat and then some people are like, well,
I got to figure out how to get rid of this,
(38:33):
and then they start purging, and then that cycle begins,
and then it's also my therapist has told me too.
It's behaviors like binging. Their depressants for the central nervous system,
sort of like alcohol. They can create a numbing feeling,
especially and if anybody has been caught in that mindless
eating cycle, you almost feel like it's an out of
body experience. When you throw up. There's a certain euphoric
(38:56):
feeling that comes along with it, and then you're sort
of as associated from reality in that world, and there
there's a lot of feelings that are either felt and
then not felt with it. So it's like this great combo.
And for me, whatever I was using that to cope
with either the dad's stuff or why I use dieting,
(39:17):
I don't know. But you never started dieting at a
young age because Dad left you too. So then I thought, well,
why didn't my sister end up with eating disorders or
disordered eating or issues. I think I think I just
started trying to perform certain ways, like if I just
make these decisions and and don't do these things and
be you know, even though I failed in different ways.
(39:39):
I think on the outside, I just wanted to look
like I had everything together. Where I was on the inside,
I really was falling apart, no one could know, you know,
and I couldn't ever show Dad I was angry because
if I showed him I was angry, then he might
not ever come back, and you know which he didn't.
But to mom, you're trying. I was trying to perform,
perform to in a in a sense. Yeah, okay, so,
(40:01):
and that's something I've always struggled with, and I think
we might get into that later, like like, what is
the lie you've always believed and when did it enter in? Yeah,
we'll do that in the third thing. But did you
ever diet at a young age? I don't remember. You
must seem like I don't have enough self control for that.
But that's that's the thing. I think that again food,
I just like food. Well, but there's time. Well no,
(40:24):
but here's my thought on that. Yes, there's the angle
of like I could have used it as a way
to deal with the dad's stuff, but also neurologically, there's
just some stuff I messed up, possibly by starting to
diet so young, and whatever caused me to do that.
In securities, diet culture, it's everywhere. When Mom was doing
(40:45):
things too at the time, like in the nineties, there
was all the butter with the spray butter. I used
to use half a bottle of spray butter on a
waffle and I was like, I'm so healthy right now,
this is fat free. Get the spray, just open it
for it there. And we did have a family that
lived with us for a little bit because they were anyway,
it doesn't really matter, but they lived with us for
(41:07):
a little bit. I think I was you were gone,
but I was probably eight or ninth grade, and the
mom ate a certain way. That's when diet foods were
first brought into our house, and I think I was
exposed to that, and so I think as moms we
have to be super careful with our kids about not
putting them through any sort of dieting because that is
(41:30):
going to mess them up long term down the line.
And I wish that someone did feel like Mom was like, Amy,
you should know that free better. But I don't think
she was like, no, Amy, don't worry about that. Love
your body, you don't need that. I think it was
there was just was no conversation about it. You want
fat free snack walls, Okay, we'll buy them. And then
she would go through times where she would kind of
(41:51):
make those like weird cabbage soups, and she would do
she did the Master Clans. Remember when she did the
lemon juice cay in and maple syrup for ten Days? Yes,
and apple cider vinegar. Yeah, maybe I don't remember. But
so many people have emailed in after listening to the
Outweigh series and said that their moms passed on to
(42:16):
them the weight watchers culture, the points, the and if
you do any of that. I'm not knocking a particular brand,
so don't at me. I'm just saying that was very
popular at the time, and so and moms because of
how they grew up and it was just part of
the time. I think they didn't know any better and
they're like, oh well, I'll just put my kid on points,
(42:36):
and then it creates this whole messed up thing and
then they have to weigh themselves. And it's just not
it's such a bigger picture that I'm being exposed to
with that we have as a society or fat phobic
and we all have been told this is the body
type you're supposed to look like, which is not attainable
for most of society, and it's probably airbrushed correct and
(43:00):
then some people, yes, are naturally like that, or some
people are literally starving themselves to get there, but you
don't know that. You just see them on a magazine
and then you think, we'll shoot, that's how I'm supposed
to look, So what do I need to do to
get that? But I am personally seeing a shift, and
maybe it's because of what I'm surrounding myself with. But
I'm thankful for the people that are putting themselves out
(43:20):
there and are super wise and educated in this area.
There's so many different things to be passionate about, but
there is a crop of dietitians and leaders in that
that are kind of shunning the old ways of nutrition
work and dietitian work, of like, hey, this is what
we need to be focusing on now. We don't need
(43:41):
to necessarily tell someone to lose weight just because they
don't weigh what this other person weighs. Weight does not
equal health, and for so long we've been told that
weight equals health. Thank you for giving an update on
where I was and where I am now, because again,
like you said, it can be encouragement to others. It
doesn't happen overnight. Again, I started really putting in the
(44:03):
work and quit purging a year and a half ago.
But it's taken that long putting in the work to
where I can go to the grocery store and not
have anxiety, or I can go to a restaurant and
not be obnoxious. Yeah, no, it's been I see a
lot of growth. So I would say people can trust
the insight that you give on on your path to
get there.
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Amy Brown
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