Our Attempt to Eliminate or Embrace Lifestyle Creep w/ Jordan Grumet #885

We have a very special episode for you this Friday as we were interviewed by our friend Jordan Grumet for his podcast Earn & Invest! Jordan is a friend of ours and we’ve had extensive conversations about personal finances but we always end up finding ourselves talking about life fulfillment and ultimate happiness. And that’s exactly what happened during this episode with Jordan as he asked us about our own personal spending, how we’ve seen our expenses swell, whether we should love or leave lifestyle creep, and plenty more during today’s episode!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, there are folks Matt here, and this is unlike
any intro that we've ever done before, and that's because
it's just me Joel and I. We weren't in our
clubhouse this week as we are enjoying some time away
with family and friends on fall break, so instead of
a Friday flight, we wanted to share a conversation that
we had with our friend Jordan Grummitt aka dot G

(00:22):
for his podcast, and honestly, I wish we'd had better audio,
but a last we weren't recording on our end, but
it was still a fun conversation. We talked about lifestyle
creep and we thought that this is something that you
might like to hear. And remember, this is Jordan actually
interviewing us. The roles are a little reversed for how
to money listeners. Without further ado, let's get to the

(00:44):
inquisitive tones of Jordan Grummitt.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
I've had to reconcile the fact that my lifestyle has
changed over the years. In fact, I might be doing
the exact opposite of what I am supposed to do.
Back a decade ago, when I discovered financial independence, I
was getting paid more than ever, but I was spending less,
using frugal hacks and saving every extra penny to invest.
Fast forward to twenty twenty four, and my networth is

(01:10):
higher than ever. Yet we are making much less money
than before, but our spending has increased significantly. Of course,
some of its inflation, but not all. We eat out more,
travel more extravagantly, and pay attention to our budget less.
I worry about money less than ever as my lifestyle
creeps forward in leaps and bounds. Am I winning the

(01:31):
game or setting myself up for failure? Let's talk lifestyle Creep.
Joel Larsguard Matt Altmis are not only best friends but
also the dynamic duel behind the incredibly popular how to
Money podcast. Since launching their brand years ago, they've not
only left their previously held jobs, but also seen their
own net worth grow along with that of their audience members.

(01:53):
Matt and Joel, welcome to earn an invest Matt, Let's
start with you. Is lifestyle creep a dean or a
feature of learning how to money?

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Or so you're just cutting straight to it right Like?
I feel like this is the question we should let's
get at it, that we.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Should answer at the end of the show, after we've
gotten all philosophical as to like where we.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Are in life and like what is money?

Speaker 1 (02:16):
But I would say it is the benefit, right, because
at the end of the day, what is money if
not the ability for us to direct our lives in
the ways that we see that's going to bring us
the most happiness to essentially live in a way that
aligns with our values. And if we can do that
with some of the additional money that we've accrued, some
of the money either that we're making or maybe in

(02:36):
your case, money that you're kind of drawing down, I
think there's some some wisdom there and not being overly
overly cheap once we've made some of these sacrifices on
the front end.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Joe Matt's got to be wrong here. I mean, lifestyle
it just sounds bad, right.

Speaker 4 (02:51):
I mean, it's yeah, it's we've attacked it his personal
finance nerds for so long, right, So at what point
and how much can you increase what you're spending on
things that you can care about? That's that's like the
heart of the question for so many people. And I
think so many people do overly ascribe to frugal for
life mindset, right, and so they have a tough time
being able to then finally loosen the reins a little

(03:13):
bit to enjoy some things they care about. It's funny
if you you could translate what a MADJ just said
in some ways to like yolo, right, But I don't
think that's what he's getting at. And I think there's
a massive difference between smart, intentional lifestyle creep and the
areas that you care about. And like, I only live once,
so let me just like, let me just spend everything
that comes in with no margin for error and with

(03:34):
no thought for the future. So you certainly have to
balance those things. But I do think, especially for people
who listen to podcasts like this one, the typical individual
who's listening to a show like this struggles with the opposite.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
They're struggling with it.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
They've got that thirty forty percent savings rate, or at
least they did for a time, and they're saying, when
is it okay for me maybe to dial back the
percentage that I'm dishing towards the the traditional retirement accounts,
towards my broker's account, towards just thinking for the of
the future, And when can I start to at least
enjoy some of the fruits more of the fruits of

(04:10):
my labor in the here and now. That is a containe.
It's like a spectrum, and it's always difficult to find
the right place. It's like the bouncing ball going back
and forth, and you're trying to hit that spot in
that sweet spot in the middle, and it's always hard
to figure out what that is in the moment. But
I think it's worth searching for. And I think if
you are too frugal for too long, two in your

(04:31):
two future minded, you are going to miss out on
some of the joys that that money can bring you
today in the here and now.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Man, I feel like we can't have this conversation without
talking a little bit about our own financial trajectories. Talk
about how your finances have changed since the beginning of
the show. You started how to Money previously under another name,
what four or five six years ago? By now six.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, six plus years ago at the sport that's right.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Now, have your finances changed, because the conversation we're going
to have is going to be a lot different when
we're at the beginning of our financial trajectory than when
it's moving along nicely.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, I'll answer that here in a second. I just
thought of something else as far as like you're asking
about lifestyle creep, and I think a part of what
turns us off to that is the fact that it's
got creep in it, which is like a negative kind
of word, whether it's most people call matt yeah. But
even like as something creeps along, it feels like, I

(05:26):
don't know, it doesn't feel intentional, and which Jo says
something about intentionally spending, and I think that's what it
comes down to, right, because if you are intentionally spending.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
More in an area that aligns more with your values.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Then it feels less like lifestyle creep as opposed to
areas of life where it feels like more like an infection,
where it's sort of finding its way into different parts
of your life and all of a sudden, it's like
the whole all multiple systems are shutting down now because
it has found its way. It's other areas that haven't
been siloed. But I think that's one of the reasons
why we push back against this idea of lifestyle creep.

(05:57):
But as far as my personal sort of journey, so
where were so I'll give a specific example which is
when we first started the podcast it Kate and I
made it a game almost and at this point we
only had so we had two kids or babies. They
weren't eating very much. But truly, like our motto when
it came to groceries was that we could feed our
family on one dollar per person per meal, and so

(06:20):
you multiply that out over the course of a month, and.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
We waste that much.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
It is not much, but we were eating incredibly frually,
incredibly affordably, and we were eating balanced meals as well.
But that is a specific area that we have dramatically
increased over the years, a because I read more about
health and nutrition and nutrition and party need to make
sure you're getting a wide variety of foods, including meat,

(06:45):
which is something that we kind of skimped on early on,
Like we truly saw meat as like the vegans just
turned this podcast as I used to see meat as
a garnish folks, all right, like truly for just like
a little bit of flavor. Whereas now the more I
read and getting into to being healthier and stronger, it's like,
oh man, we do need larger amounts of protein eating
organic foods. That has also increased our budget. Those two

(07:08):
things combined, not to mention just the natural increasing the
price of growth, increasing prices, adding two more members to
our fans. So we now have four kids. So that
is an area that yeah, it used to be. Yeah,
three years ago or two years ago we first joined Costco.
We're dropping something like eight hundred dollars a month for
our groceries and that includes like cleaning supplies and some

(07:28):
medicine stuff like that. We're spending something closer to sixteen
hundred dollars a month now. But that is something that
I'm happy to do because it's something that I Last
night we had prime ribbis, like our family threw down
three of those. They were delicious, and it was just
a great family meal. And that's something that we can
afford to do now a little bit more. So, that's
an area where we are spending certainly a good bit

(07:50):
more and still much cheaper than eating out. Oh absolutely, Joe.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean your financial circumstances have changed, right, Both of
you guys were doing other jobs, you know, ten years ago.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah, does it.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Feel different today to you looking at that bank account
and going, maybe I can loosen up the reins a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, it does.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
I mean, I think and that's kind of the goal,
like because when you're talking about saving, it's really deferred spending,
and so because and I think that's the right way
to think about savings, I think sometimes I think that
what saddens me the most is and I don't know
if matagrees or not, but when I see the stories
about people who worked a low paying job for four

(08:34):
or five decades and then it's like, oh, they died
with eight million dollars in their retirment account, I think
that's to me, that's more sad than the YOLO thing.
And I think that is what maybe the Fire movement
at time struggles with, is a propensity to go in
that direction. It's to amass this incredible war chest, and
they're giving up on certain experiences that they could participate

(08:56):
in now, maybe meaningful trip with friends or something. I
don't have to go at the end of this month
on a backpacking and camping trip with somebodies. It's not
terribly expensive, but my goodness, I think like sometimes early
on ten years ago, I would have found it really
difficult to have the ability, the mental ability to spend
the money to go do this thing, even though I

(09:18):
could have afforded to do that. And so I guess
I know the trappings of a hyper frugal mindset and
maybe what the limitations that it can impose on you.
And I have slowly but surely tried to work on that.
And I don't think I've gone overboard, right Like, I'm
still investing, still thoughtful, still thinking about the future, don't

(09:38):
still want to have a meaningful gap there. And there's
certain things that just don't interest me to spend money on,
like cars or fancy houses or like private island vacations.
I mean, I'm still kind of a basic dude at
the end of the day. But I am willing to
expand in a few specific areas and have the good
fortune to be able to do that thanks to a

(09:59):
lot of years of trying to be thoughtful with my
money and growing that net worth. But I do think, yeah,
that the typical struggle for most people at least who
listen to this are going They're going to be in
that I've got way more more money than I know
what to do with when I'm sixty five, and when
you think about kind of what to die with zero mentality,
what can I do with at least some of those

(10:20):
funds in the here and now so that I'm well
prepared for the future, but that I don't have some
like way more money than I even need.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
That's I don't know. Thinking through that.

Speaker 4 (10:28):
It's always difficult and there's no easy solution, but it's
worth wrestling through so that you can make sure that
you're using some of those funds now for things that matter.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, I love that concept of savings is deferred spending. Matt,
you mentioned food. What categories do you think lifestyle creep
is a very reasonable thing in like, are there categories
that are just too frivolous which you'll never be able
to spend money on versus other categories where you like,
I'm thinking for meat SETI like my rich life. I'm

(10:58):
willing to really double down on the categories.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
No, I think it comes down to the individual and
so therefore I am not going to discriminate against anybody
in whatever category that they want to spend in as
long as that they have done it intentionally. Which is why,
say Joel alluded, and this is the conversation him and
I have had before. Joel alluded to like the janitor
who has a very simple life, but that ends up
dying with millions of the bank and donates it to

(11:21):
the local library, which he was a fan of. I'm
fine with that sort of scenario as long as that
individual has done the work, as long as they have
sat down and they have processed on their own how
they want their life to look like, where they want
their funds to be directed towards choosing it on purpose. Yeah, exactly.
If it's like a hoarding mentality and you're always afraid

(11:44):
that you're not going to have enough, that's I mean,
that certainly seems unhealthy. But for an individual to want
to spend more on vacations or clothing seems like something
like this Joel's wearing a T shirt I've got on,
like this Henley a bottle of Amazon like five years ago. Well,
that's not something I really care. Like that either of
us I think really care about, although we do like

(12:04):
buying more quality goods over cheap, mass produced stuff. But
if somebody wants to start spending a ton of money
on clothing, that, Okay, that's not something I'm necessarily gonna do,
but I'm totally fine with that. I think for individuals
to find whatever it is that floats their boat, you know,
on a how to money, we call it the craft
beer equivalent. What it is that folks are spending a

(12:26):
little extravagantly on in the here and now while still
being smart I guess way off in the future.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
So and everything can't be your craft beer equivalent, right,
So for us, we're like, hey, pick three or four things,
like what are those things that you're willing to spend
more on than most people do? And I'm like something
like you're talking. We mentioned eating out and how eating
out can be expensive. I think if you're doing it
on purpose, that's one thing, but most people do it
mindlessly and it's like I forgot tow chicken for dinner tonight,

(12:51):
and so yeah, let's go out to eat.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Or it's convenience. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
And I think convenience and like eating out gets because
it truly doesn't come down planning. And when I think
more folks are seeing their categories spending up in when
it comes to entertainment and eating out picking.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Up and it has for us as well.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
And that's actually one of the categories where I'm not
comfortable according to our budget. That is an area where truly,
there has been lifestyle creep and at the end of
the year, at the end of last year, Kit and
now I looked at it and we're saying, why, oh wow,
we actually spend way more in this category than we
are comfortable with. It doesn't mean that we're still not
prioritizing date nights at least twice a month. We can

(13:28):
still go out and have a great time where we're
talking to each other just over a beer and an
affordable meal. We just don't always have to go to
the nice restaurant where we're dropping hundreds of dollars with
wine pairings and stuff like that, which there can be
a temptation to do. But whether it's fancier places or
just eating out more often, I think it does kind
of come down to just I don't know, the ability
to proactively decide how it is that you want to

(13:50):
live your life.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Which includes meals.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
I think when it's on purpose, that's when you derive
the value from the decision, and when it's by kind
of like, ah, I forgot the play and guess we're
doing that, it's just it's trying to hit the easy button,
and the easy button is what costs you a lot
of money. But if it's if it's every the date night,
every other week, and that's where we're willing to drop
seventy five hundred bucks eating out because it's a memorable experience.

(14:15):
Or if it's the if it's the every other week,
the family thing we got together, and guess what it means,
because then it's no dishes, there's nothing to clean up
after the fact, and it creates a memorable family experience.
That's a deeper reason I think to then do that
thing and spend the extra money and find the place
in your budget for it. But that's where the intentionality
makes such a difference in our ability to enjoy those

(14:37):
dollars we spend and not be like, you know, letting
them drain from our life mindlessly.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, which I think a lot.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Of folks would hear that and they would say, oh,
you're just justifying that expense. You're oh, you're talking about
the dishes and not having to clean that up. And
other folks out there who might be earlier on in
their financial journey would say, just buck up, man, like
clean those dishes, Like, oh, that's that's family time that
you can spend together as well.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
I'm not going to argue against that, but it' or an.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
Individual decision, yes, yeah, and we're all going to make
different decisions individually at different points in our lives. Things
that I I was thinking about this just last night,
how one of our listeners donates plasma and he uses
all the money that he makes from donating plasma over
the course of the year to go on his vacation.
And I remember at one time, like maybe like a
year ago, kind of thinking, ah, man, I wouldn't do

(15:20):
that now. But I did it in college, and there
was a point in time where I was willing to
do that. And there's a point in time that I'm
not willing to do that. And there was a point
in time I'm willing to stay in hostels when I
go to Europe. Now is not that time now that
I'm forty, And it's okay, I'm okay that I've expanded that,
but I'm also glad I had that experience early on.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
So I guess, assuming.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Of course that you can financially justify it, right, and
so like's I guess that's the point I was trying
to make.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
You can kind of make up excuses for it.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's fine because like, I think even the most flimsy
sort of reason can be your justification. But can you
financially back that decision while continuing to achieve the different
financial goals that you're looking to reach out a certain point?
That's the important part too, So.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Did Joe I've been real intention Like, we jumped right
into this conversation without really even defining lifestyle creep. But
as I listen to our conversation, it becomes clear this
idea of lifestyle creep versus being a valuist really has
to do with intentionality. Right, when we're intentional, it doesn't
really feel like lifestyle creep. It feels like value spending,
Whereas when we're being thoughtless, maybe a little bit frivolous,

(16:21):
then it really feels like lifestyle creep. So let's just
say spending growth now instead of lifestyle creep. We're going
to take some of that kind of morality out of it,
because hopefully a lot of us are trying to be intentional.
Does spending more make us happy? So what we previously
would call lifestyle creep we're redefining is just spending growth.

(16:42):
Does it make us happier?

Speaker 3 (16:43):
You think?

Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think there are ways that spending more money can
bring more happiness, and I don't think it's even just
about experiences versus stuff. I think that's been the typical
sort of reaction is, Oh, if you're spending on experiences,
that's so much more valuable than stuff, And I just
don't I don't necessarily think that that's true, although I

(17:06):
do think that prioritizing experiences can be a great return
on your investment. But yeah, I guess when it comes
down to it, I think valuist is the right term.
But even in that, even in that, like I love
the idea of like, well did I get what I
wanted for my money? Make did it bring greater levels

(17:26):
of satisfaction and to And there was a new study
that we just talked about recently on the show about
happiness and how it found that actually, much greater levels
of income do accrue to you more happiness. But what
the study found was that the main reason you accrue happiness,
it's the money that goes unspent. And so I think
it's the greater levels of control and freedom that you have.

(17:46):
And so for me, as long as I'm if I'm
increasing my spending, which I have been doing over the
past few years, as long as I am still doing
those other things, those habits, those frugal some of those
frugal habits because I just enjoy them. Some of the
savings and investment happens because I care about greater and
greater levels of financial freedom and control and choice of

(18:08):
my own life. If you lose those because you're spending more, that,
I think is when spending is going to accrue to
you less happiness because you are buying more stuff in
order to probably fill some sort of like inner need.
But what you're missing out on is the greater levels
of control and flexibility that truly bring I think the
most happiness according to studies and according to my personal

(18:31):
experience too.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
I love that dichotomy you talked about at the beginning,
which was this idea of spending on things versus experience,
and a lot of people are like, oh, as long
as I spend on experiences, it's okay, you know, it's fine. Funny.
I've evolved to thinking, well, I think like spending on
things is like the lowest level of happiness. I think
spending on experiences like the next level of happiness, and
the final level for me is actually spending money on

(18:54):
becoming the kind of person I want to be. So
a lot of people say I want to spend money
on taking a trip to Europe because that's like an
experience and it's on my bucket list, and I think
more about, well, I want to spend money on becoming
the person who takes adventures and experiences new things and
learns and grows. And I really turned it around to
not even experiences, but being the kind of person who

(19:18):
does those things that I used to think the experience
was so valuable for.

Speaker 4 (19:22):
That's the deeper connection I think that we're talking about too.
Really like that, because it is like it's a it's
a it's a trip to Europe that I can put
on Instagram is one thing, right, then it's less fulfilling then,
Like I'm the kind of person who goes and explores
and sees the history of our world and I'm walking
on a road that's fifteen hundred years old and it's

(19:45):
saturated in history, and I'm enjoying the small towns and
the little conversations. Like that's a different perspective even on
if it's the.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Exact same trip. Yeah, right, Like and so that's what
it like where it comes down to the heart. But
I like, yeah, I like what you're saying because there's
a focus here on self on personal development, which kind
of lends its way to an expense that I've recently
added to my spending over the past couple of years.
But like, paying for an expensive gym is something I
would have laughed at, because truly there's a lot most

(20:15):
of the stuff that we do there.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
It's like I still laugh in him for paying that
much money for a gym.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
I can go there, I can go home, I can
chop my chop wood, I can lift center block, you know,
like these aren't things that require any sort of specialized
gear or the Rocky approach.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Bundy.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yes, but the fact is I wasn't doing those things.
And so even though I was telling myself, why would
I spend one hundred and eighty dollars every single month
to do this thing, Well, the fact is I wouldn't
do it if I didn't spend that money. And I
had proved to myself that I wouldn't do it because
I said that I would do it, but I wasn't.
And so in my case, similar to what you're saying, Doc,

(20:49):
is that the self development that I'm able to experience
by paying this money. And this is literally money that
I'm paying it. I'm losing it. It's lost every single month.
But what I'm able to gain on a personal development
side of things, it's, oh my gosh, it's worth every
single opinion I'd pay.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Honestly, i'd pay more for it even but uh, I'm
glad I don't have to.

Speaker 4 (21:08):
And I think the thing is, and what money people
are prone to do is say, well, do that, do
the rule of one seventy three on your gym membership,
do the rule of one seventy three on this and
this and that, and like, yes, it's true, I could
bulk up my retirement account and save these account like
even bigger, and it can be more robust, and it
could potentially be yes, hundreds of thousands, if not, if

(21:28):
not seven figures more decades down the road. But what
am I missing out on by doing that? And if
I have, if I'm planning accordingly and my savings rate
is high enough and I am prioritizing future me at
the same time, well am I deprioritizing current me?

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Though?

Speaker 4 (21:49):
In order to amass so much that's more than I'll
ever need, And that's that's a real risk. That is
a real risk that I think is dramatically underplayed and
not just having that those additional funds on hand.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
But I think the bigger risk too is what you're saying, Doc,
is the lack of self development and not becoming the
person that you want to become or the person that you.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Could be because you're so future.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
You're so yeah, you're so focused on that, and you're
not paying attention and exercising the muscles of habit that
allow you to become the person that you want to
be ten twenty thirty years from now, right. And so
if that means you are not spending money once a
year on a nice vacation with say another friend, well
that's a relationship that's suffering, that is, and you've fallen
out of the habit of flexing the muscle of spending

(22:34):
on vacation and going to the beach or in your case, Doc,
I think you go to Mexico every year.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
The ability to do that.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Means that, oh, now, in your later retirement years, you're
gonna be able to continue to be more easily able
to accomplish that right, as opposed to having never spent
all along the way, and then all of a sudden
you're gonna pop out of the tube at the other
end and you're gonna have this ability to start dropping
money on these vacations.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
It's highly unlikely.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
That you will be able to do that without any
other sort of diagnosis or something that all of a
sudden has put your life into perspective where you see
this sort of the clock ticking down. That happens to
some folks, and that does allow, I think, for a
more radical transformation, But for most folks, it's gradual, and
you gradually become the person that you are day in
and day out throughout the weeks lead to months and

(23:18):
years ultimately your entire life.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
All Right, I'll read this back in the moment. I
love where this is going, by the way, I love
this conversation. Every conversation I have with you guys, I
love anyway.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
But well, we love it too.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
This one's particularly fun, I think because I think these
are questions that we're both grappling with, right, and so
it feels we're just being selfish.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
That's why it's fun.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
And you know, I think about our audience members, who
hopefully are growing with us. And I kind of said
that in the intro. It's like, not only have your
networth's grown, but your audience member's networth has grown as
they've been more thoughtful about these things. So they're kind
of facing it right along as we are facing the
same kind of question. All right, Matt, Before the break,
you talked about this idea of the gym, something you

(24:06):
normally wouldn't have spent money on, and as you've evolved
and you realize this is what it works for you
and spending a little extra money on it will make
you more likely to work out, it'll add to your happiness,
improve your life. But there are gyms and then there
are gyms. Right, you can go to the middle tier gym,
you can go to the finest gym. You can hire

(24:28):
the finest trainer. I mean, you can continue to spend
more and more. How do we allow our spending to
grow but also continue to set limits when necessary? Like
how do we limit set.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
I think that for me, I tend to be the
kind of person that throws myself into things, and so
I would say that if I wasn't married, if I
didn't have a family, if I didn't have just a
number of other priorities in life. I could see myself
kind of going down that path. And so for me,
I think it's just having It's not limiting, but it's

(25:04):
having more. And what I mean by that is having
more goals. It's not saying that like, no, you can't
do this thing, but like it's, oh, actually open your
eyes to see all these other things around you. And
so what that means is not only from a financial standpoint,
but from how I spend my time standpoint. I actually
don't want to spend more money working out and focusing
on my health. I don't want to spend more time
doing different training programs or whatever. You know, you can

(25:28):
have a whole bucket list of different things you might
want to accomplish. You're hitting the sweet spot when it
comes to fitness, but the ability to do the things
that's just enough for me. But then to be able
to spend my time and money elsewhere, whether that's on family,
community volunteering. I think having other outlets is so important
to kind of, I don't know, broaden the appeal of

(25:48):
spending in a more diversified way.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Joe.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
This conversation springs from an episode you guys did on
How to Money where you and your wives were talking.
You go to the beach every summer, and at one
point one of you asked your spouse or the other
spouse about enough, and I thought that was a really
interesting conversation. Tell me about balancing spending growth versus worries

(26:14):
about having enough, because I think a lot of us, Joell,
get to this place where we're so careful with our
finances because we have this version or this idea of
enough that also evolves over time, and spending growth threatens that.
And so do you get worried about enough? Does that
come to mind a lot when you're looking at your

(26:36):
monthly bills and saying, hmm, we've kind of increased here
a little bit.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Oh for sure, for sure.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
And I think that is probably where a lot of
hyperfrugal folks what that stems from. And I've been honest
with this on our show that like, when I was
a kid, my parents had a lot of financial difficulties.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Dad lost his job.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
It led to a sequence of difficult money situations and
the family, including filing for bankruptcy, a car repossession, and
that left an indelible mark on me and so not
having enough feels like this incredibly real fear for me,
based in like trauma'sn't overused words, so I'm not gonna
use that word, but based in like what happened when
I was a kid, and so I think I went

(27:18):
through a lot, especially my first decade of adulthood, and
that was like my impetus for saving and investing was like,
I can't let that happen, but I could let that
mindset dominate me for the rest of my life. I
could let the potential for scarcity even though the numbers
on the page and the reality of the trajectory don't

(27:39):
match up with that. Really, that's off the table at
this point for me when I think about it rationally,
and I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? Even
if Mac gets canceled in our podcast because he does
something really awful and terrible in the podcast.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know it's this, this is an inside joke, but
it's the speedo of Finn kind Litt'll eventually get him.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
Carried righty, it's the effect We're never coming back from that.
But like, what's really truly the worst that can happen?
And the worst isn't all that bad, and so I
have to because it's really easy to catastrophize in my
brain and think about worst case scenarios that aren't actually possible.
And when I think about actual potential worst case scenarios,
I'm like, that's really not that bad.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
We'll be fine.

Speaker 4 (28:18):
And so and like that was something we talked about
where Matt's wife doesn't currently work and she's like, I
could totally go back to work or what if our
income drops, Like that's okay, Like we'll be fine because
we've our lifestyle is it hasn't grown to the extent
that we couldn't afford it if our income dropped dramatically.
So like the I think those are really important scenarios

(28:39):
to run through because it's really I get that attachment
to the numbers on the page and the salve that
it can bring you, But for so many people it
doesn't bring that because they haven't thought through the concept
of enough and they haven't really realized that actually where
they are is better than they ever could have hoped
to be when they were in their you know, twenties

(28:59):
or or early thirties, and the downside, potential for their
future is extremely limited based on the skills that they
have and based on how they've been able to handle
money thus far. So if that's the case, be willing
to think through how you can incorporate a few more
of those dollars now that are gonna boost your I

(29:20):
remember one of the things like, and we talked about
this on the show, I think, was like I said,
I would never want to like rake leaves. I raked
leaves like as a kid, we had this giant yard,
big trees, and raking leaves was like the I hated it.
And so that's one of those things I'm more than
willing to pay for, is like I will not rake
the leaves in the yard. But I got out there
and did some yard work yesterday and it was great,

(29:40):
but it wasn't raking leaves. So it's okay. So really
find those things for you that are gonna be that
are gonna make you happy without overdoing it. But also
just I guess, realize look at the numbers and look
at the real potential downsides and know that they're probably
not as bad as you made them uppear in your mind.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, and I'll say too, this might show the conversation
a little bit too, But for me, it's it's come
down to not just feeling comfortable with having enough and
seeing the number on the page and looking at the trajectory,
doing some math and realizing that, hey, we're coast fired.
We don't need investa anymore. If we don't want to,
we're you can just coast. But it also comes down
to a changing view of work, and when you are
seeing work as this thing that you're trying to escape

(30:19):
and at a certain point, truly I want to be
able to kick back and I don't want to provide
any value.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
To the world at all. Well, yeah, this is right,
and judge Judy every afternoon.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
If that's the case, then you yeah, you're you're not
going to be earning anything else. But my view of
work has I don't want to say it's changed, but
I think maybe early on first having come across financial independence,
there is more of a desire to be able to
say I'm want to kick it to the curb. But
the more I work, the more I realize this is
how I contribute to society, This is how I'm able

(30:47):
to make the world a better place, and I want
to continue to do that. Whether that's with the podcast
with how to Money or just some other thing I
haven't even thought of. I think that I will continue
to work. And maybe you've heard of this too. I
forget who was that came up with this, but there's
like a new acronym. So you've got fire of course
that everybody knows. But then there's ice.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
Have you heard about this? It says where I'll continue earning. Yeah, yeah,
which is I don't think it's going to catch. I
don't know, it's it's not that catching.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
But when I heard that, I thought, you know what,
that's exactly the frame of mind that I think I'm
going to enter into is that I'm not necessarily looking
to completely retire. I'm going to look to find ways
to continue to provide value to the world, in which
case you will be financially compensated. Maybe not at the
same levels, yeah, but knowing that there will still most
likely be a paycheck coming in. I think that's a

(31:34):
really healthy way of thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Let me make an intellectual jump here, because when I
take what you both say together, Joe, your point is
you can't save yourself to enough, right, because there's narrative trauma,
generational trauma, there's issues from growing up and enough really
isn't about how much you save. You know this from
your own experience. Yet when I'm listening to Matt, it's

(31:56):
almost like, too, you can't really spend yourself to enough either,
because we know, ultimately from getting to the point where
we don't need to work anymore, you still end up
earning maybe that whole ice phenomena, because you have greater
gifts to give to the world. You have this sense
of purpose, this thing to do. So it's funny because
it's almost like it's not about saving, but it's not
about spending growth either. It's again maybe we're just coming

(32:21):
back to this value as using your money to become
the person you want to be.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Yeah, we talk about the why behind your money, and
we're not the only people who talk about that, but
we actually have like a two page thing on our
site where you can kind of answer some questions and
it's it's almost like the Myers Briggs or whatever for
your money or something like that, not nearly as in depth.
Although I don't know if that's even I think some
people have cast dispersions about Myers Brigs and whether or

(32:46):
not it's legit.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's actually less accurate, right, Yeah, get under constant because
of the fact that it's got to catch you name.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, the branding was good.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
They're much better persons out there, but yeah, but answer
some of these those questions.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
It's so fun when you come back to it.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Yet, so we talk so much about the nuts and
bolts of how money works, and we talk so little
about the attachment to who we are, the things that
we've gone through, and the things that we desire, and
that is I think ninety percent of the work that's
left for people that hasn't been done. And yes, it's
crucial to know about contribution limits and compounding returns and

(33:25):
hsas and the beauty of triple tax advantage accounts and
stuff like that. Those are really important things that we'll
keep talking about. But it's more important, I think, to
know about that money's ultimately not going to satisfy you,
but that it's also one of those really important things, right,
that it's an element of our life where if we're healthy,
then it's going to allow us to be even healthier

(33:48):
in other parts of our lives. So I think working
through some of that why behind your money can help
you realize how much money you need to be saving
in the current moment, and for some people at certain
periods in life, it might be thirty to forty percent
savings rate and that makes a lot of sense. And
for other people it might be a ten percent savings
rate because they've done so well early on. And then

(34:09):
also I think it'll help you come to grips with like,
what are the things I'm spending on that are moving
the needle for my happiness because I've connected it to
something deeper that matters in my life. And I think
a lot of people just they've left that work left
to be is undone. And I think the more that
you work on some of that personal stuff, it can
actually help you realize what is enough. It can help

(34:29):
you become actually more thrilled it. There was a conversation
we have with Ken Honda at one point about and
I was like freaking out over this home renovation we
were doing and I was just signing the check and
I just remember having that conversation with him, and it
was like about money and happiness is about this like
kind of zen approach to money, And I was like,
how can you spend this much money on something and
not just be like punching yourself in the face while

(34:50):
doing it, and I just after that conversation, I was like,
you know what we have said. We wanted to do this,
and I can make it a miserable experience and beat
myself to a pulp over the money that we're spending,
or I can say, man, I'm so thankful that we
have this money and that we can do this thing
that we've been wanting to do, and it's going to
make a big difference in our family's lives. And I

(35:13):
think sometimes the hyper frugal person gets in the self
flagellation mindset and it actually it takes the joy out
of even the spending that you are doing that could
provide joy because it matters to you.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
I love Ken Honda because the idea of happy money
comes in and he's like, and then happy money goes out,
you need to spend it on something you value, and
it really relieves some of that stress and anger and
anxiety about spending when you're like, happy money comes in,
and then your job is to make that happy money
going out, spend it on things you value, on people

(35:46):
you value, on services you value that add to your life,
and then spending is worthwhile. Matt, I almost feel like
the moral of the story is we should be robotic,
Like we should look at our net worth every year
and say we can spend this percentage, put it in
a separate account, and then have at it and spend
on whatever we think will be valuable to us.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I do think that there is something valuable when it
comes to being able to proacte. So, like you're talking
about putting together a budget, looking at the year, figuring out, okay,
where did we spend last year? Certainly reviewing that. But
I mean, so on one hand, I'm going to say, yes,
that is important to do right because you wantn't you
need to have a game plan. I think we can
get out of control. I think they can get out

(36:26):
of control. And you get to a certain point though
as well, where if you don't really need to look
at your finances hardly at all, and you're just kind
of like wet thumb up in the air, kind of
getting a feel for where the winds go, and that's
totally fine as well.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
I mean, and I'm still thinking about.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
What you're saying as far as like money and just
ultimate happiness and Ken Honda, which is making me think
of other things as well, But like it makes me.
I heard somebody else talk about just freedom generally speaking,
and we talk about financial freedom and money, and I
think the same thing can be applied to the same saying, though,
which is that freedom or financial independence isn't it shouldn't

(36:58):
be a goal in and of it self, right, It's
the things that.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
That then allows you to do right.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
And so I would say that having a higher net worth,
being financially free, it is not intrinsically or inherently valuable,
it is instrumentally valuable. It's the things that that then
allows you to do with the rest of your days
here on this earth, with the money that you have.
And I think that that is so important to register
because folks, if they're not thinking through that David Brooks,

(37:26):
he calls it the second Mountain. But like whatever it
is that you want to pursue, that's oh, actually, this
is the most important thing to me. The finances and
how you set yourself up early on in life oftentimes
allows you to then get to that point in your
life to where you are finding this more higher levels
of just fulfillment calling whatever purpose, the different things that

(37:48):
you want to pursue with your life. I think sometimes
and this was me too, Like in the younger fire
crowd or whatever, it's like, Oh, any way I can
reduce a year or two to hit my financial independence number,
even if it means signing myself up for quite a
bit more bit of just miserable existence, It's gonna be
worth it because I'm gonna hit my fine number at

(38:09):
forty two instead of forty five, and that's more years
I don't have to work. And I just think that's
a that's a short sided approach, and I would rather
dial back the amount I invested and enjoy my life
more in the here and now and hit my fire
number a few years later. It because it's just it's
just a healthier way to live. And I've just I've seen,
I think we've seen too many people hit their fire

(38:30):
number and then they're like, what do I do with
my life now? And it almost triggers this existential response
because there hasn't been a whole lot more thought beyond
hitting some sort of twenty five X rule number, and
ultimately that's not the goal of life.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
So, Matt, both you and Joel have lots of kids,
so many kids, so many I mean, just dozens and
dozens of kids. So one thing you guys have to
be thinking about while you're doing this watching what we
used to call lifestyle creepy, but we're being nicer and
calling it spending growth now, intentional spending growth. You've got
to be thinking, my kids are growing up and seeing

(39:07):
me progressively spend more and more on these things. What
type of behavior do you think it's healthy to model
to kids when it comes to increasing budgets over time?

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, man, that is so tricky because right we want
the best for our kids. We have more disposable income,
more of an ability to spend on our kids and
invest in them, and the different things that we do
together to buy nicer stuff even But I mean, I
think for us, it's having conversations about why it is
that we're doing things. There's multiple paths we can get
on here. But as far as you're talking about modeling behavior,

(39:40):
and I think it's from the outside, anybody can see
you spending money in a certain way and they can
either jump to their own conclusions or maybe they've got
no clue why it is that you're spending they're not
even thinking about it. But obviously we have got more
of an impact on our kids than just random strangers.
And so I think because of that, talking through the
different things that we're spending money on, whether that's a
home renovation and saying hey, this is gonna like this

(40:03):
is literally we're talking to architects right now. We're waiting
on the next round of drawings to come back from
our architects, though we can get the ball rolling here,
and part of the conversation here is like, hey, this
is going to allow us to have a music room.
We're gonna be able to have an actual, upright piano
up against the wall here. There's going to be an
area here for y'all to be able to craft and
to create. My wife she's going to have a studio

(40:23):
where she's going to be able to work on ceramics
and jewelry and metal design. And so what we're communicating
to them is less of a financial sort of conversation.
It's more of like, hey, we're talking about art and
creativity and what it means, sort of like you're saying, doctor,
who is the person that I am capable of being?
And for us when it comes to spending money on
our kids, That's how we're trying to interpret things. How

(40:45):
can we invest in our kids now, not literally invest
money for our kids for their future to where they
don't have to do anything, but how can we set
them up in such a way that's going to just
broaden the horizons so that they can see that there's
so much that is out there for them to explore
and to create and to do and to contribute to
without going broke. So that's how I'm thinking about spending

(41:07):
money on our kids, and simultaneously, I guess communicating that
to them as we're spending that money.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
Sometimes in that conversation the kids are like, oh, well,
we can afford that, right, And the truth is like
I'm willing to have that conversation with them where it's
like we could afford that thing, we could do this thing,
but we don't do this thing because we prioritize other
things or and sometimes that prioritization too is just it
makes us better humans, because sometimes it gets easy to

(41:34):
spend money for convenience, for ease, and are as a family,
we prioritize doing the hard thing, sometimes right on purpose.
So I think those conversations are really important to have
with your kids too, because the more money you have
you can use, it's kind of like a hammer hit
and a nail and you can you can just keep
spending money on different things and like, oh, we're gonna

(41:56):
upgrade our lifestyle this way in that way. And I
do think Rezili, it's such an important part. And that's
one of the things we've struggled with, as like, we
have had more money than I had growing up. How
do I still instill resilience in a way that isn't
it's not necessary. We could avoid some of the hardship, right,

(42:17):
But I think that the self and post hardship is
an important thing for my kids to learn and for
myself to continue to endure because I don't want to
be a weak person, I guess. And so yeah, I
think those conversations remain important and I'm always willing to
enter into that with them. Like, sure, we could put
a pool in the backyard, but why do we join

(42:37):
the pool down the street. Well, it's way cheaper. We
don't have to maintain this thing. And guess what, we
get to hang out with friends. You're gonna see friends
at the pool then too, instead of just our own
insular backyard sort of thing. So those are the kind
of ongoing conversations that I think matter and drive home
the point that, like money isn't the end all be all,
and there are reasons even if we have the money,

(42:59):
to limit our because we care about other things more.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
I have a specific thing I want to talk about. Yeah,
does money buy happiness? Right, So we all know about
the Conmomon study originally that suggested seventy thousand. Once you
go over it, there's not much of an improvement. Then
Killingsworth came along and said, no, no, no, no, if you
make more money for certain groups of people, it makes
them happier. Conomon and Killingsworth eventually looked at the data

(43:32):
together and came up with some of the conclusions you
talked about. I don't agree with any of that. Like, so,
if you look at the Conmomon study, it's like retrospective
looking at these old databases, et cetera. And then if
you look at the killings Worth study, it's like they
did these questionnaires that they I think they texted or
emailed people and they filled them out, you know, multiple
times a week for like ten weeks, and that was it.

(43:55):
If you go and look at the Harvard Adult Health Study,
probably one of the best studies about what is happiness
in people. They study people every two years for like
seventy years. They did interviews with them, they did interviews
with their family members, et cetera, time and time again.
What they've found is it's not money, it's not prestige,
it's not occupations, none of that. That what truly brings
happiness is interpersonal connections. And so I think the Harvard study,

(44:19):
data wise, is so much stronger than the kind of
in killings or data. I don't even know why we're
still having the conversation, but I agree those are the
studies we all look at. And maybe I'm wrong, and
maybe I'm missing something.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, I think there is some truth to it, right,
because there is like some sort of threshold where like
if you are making a certain amount, like there is
a threshold at which you no longer have to be
worried about certain bills, certain things.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
But I going up for beers with friends doesn't worry
you in the same way. Right.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
But yeah, which leads into the community side of things.
But I think it has less to do with the
dollar amount and more about margin. At certain dollar amounts,
folks are able to have more margin because now they're like, Okay, Finally,
I feel the ability to have more of an emergency fund,
more money in the bank because ultimately, and that's something
that we came across recently, is that is what's leading
to happiness, the ability to not stress and fret over

(45:09):
every bump in the road, and that comes with margin
that comes without living.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Paycheck to paycheck. When the folks are able to earn
more and they are able.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
To sock some of that money aside in the highield
savings account, like that's what they're experiencing.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
For their first time, and all of a sudden they're like,
oh my gosh, more money. This is great. I'm so happy.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
But it's like, well it's short lived too, yeah, And
that's the hedonic reality of the hedonic treadmill, right, is like, hey,
you get a fifty thousand dollars raise, and for like three,
four or five weeks, maybe a little bit longer, you're like,
this is the greatest thing since like spread and you
start to incorporate that into your spending and pretty soon
you're like, when's the next race coming, because I'm ready
for another boost of happiness. I'm ready for another jolt,

(45:47):
and we and it's it's I'm so glad the hedonic
treadmill is real, because when something really awful happens to
you in your life, yeah, it means that you can rise. Yeah,
you habituate back to it like a normal regular life
satisfaction which you kind of had before that awful thing happened.
But the same thing is true on the upper side.
And so I remember thinking, like, man, if I made
like twice as much money when I was like starting

(46:09):
in radio, this is going to be this is gonna
change my life. And then it made twice as much
money and it was helpful, helped me, Like but only
if I think the ways it recruits to happiness is
when you have more margin and when you have more
optionality and control. I think people think that when they
incorporate that into their spending and they're able to inflict
their lifestyle, that is typically where the joy is going

(46:31):
to come from, and oftentimes it's not. And I have
found that more free time to pursue hobbies and things
I care about in relationships with people, that is one
of the best things that money's been able to buy.
And it's you don't necessarily need money for some of that,
but it can be helped well yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
So let me give you two depressing pieces of data.
One is the US Times, like, oh, you're of labor,
does US Time survey and they've actually found that people
who have less money and are the lower socioeconomic class
tend to have more free time than those who are
the middle and upper sociate and economic class. It turns
out that wealthy people tend to have less free time.
That's one depressing thing. The other depressing thing so it

(47:07):
averages about five to six hours a day for everybody
with it slightly more for people who have less. The
other depressing thing is something called the Easterland paradox. Right,
So there's this paradox that they've found that when you
take underserved communities so everyone's poor, everyone has nothing, and
you infuse money to those communities, they get a brief
bump and then fall back to baseline. Part of the

(47:29):
idea behind this actually is it's comparative wealth, So it's
not whether you're struggling for the basics, it's whether you're
struggling less than your neighbor.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
I believe they're studies about people, and that's depressed.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
When people are asked if they would rather have more
money or their neighbor have less lot of Sometimes they
would rather like as long as they are better off
in comparison to their neighbor, they'll take that at the result.
But if I make one hundred thousand and more of
my neighbor makes two hundred grand more, then I would
rather see them get lose twenty five grand in salary
to me stay put, because it's that real relative comparison
of happiness, and that's relative, and then we're obviously living

(48:03):
in like a massive comparison age.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Well, I think that's the biggest problem too, is like
not getting too far out over your skis. And if
you are constantly looking to the next great way that
you can spend your money or the next trip, you're
always gonna be like at this deficit right, Like you're
always gonna not have enough as opposed to trying to
find some sort of equilibrium. Like I swear, I feel
like I wake up every day and I'm able to
live a life that I can't believe. I get to

(48:25):
live like I get to It's like, oh my gosh,
I get to get like wake up in a great house,
the healthy, awesome family, I go and work out, I
get to call you know, get the hang out with
this guy and like quote unquote work all day and
create the podcast and our additional content I get to buy.
Come like, there are different things that money can't buy.

(48:46):
And I think trying to take a more content lifestyle
and focusing on the things that matter more like it
just keeps me from looking ahead and be like, oh,
like like where I'm trying to peek around the corner,
like what's the next what's the next thing that's gonna
make me It's gonna really turn me on, that's gonna
get me really pumped and excite.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
It's it's less.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
About that and more maybe about finding contentment in the
day to day perhaps.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
And that's where we were talking about experiences and that
it's it's the it's the experience hopping right, It's the get.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
The next one and the next one.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
It's I'm accruing experiences and to me that that ultimately
isn't terribly satisfying. Like when we go on to beat vacation,
it's not because I need the next experience. It's because
it's about more time to to rest, to have interpersonal
connection with people I love and care about the most.
And and I think that's why I kind of buck
against the typical moniker like experiences are are more satisfying

(49:36):
than stuff. I just don't think that's nearly as true
as people have made it out to be. And I
think we have treated experiences as a commodity. We've we've
made it into stuff.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Essentially in our current culture kind of cheapened it because
the argument for experiences is that typically you get to
experience those alongside other people, which kind of lends to
the whole community thing, and.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
You get to relive those memories for years after this.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah, but like you said, it totally had has become commoditized,
and it's certainly become cheaper.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
I agree with that for sure.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
I mean, I look at you guys, and so so
I know you guys as friends. Over the last what
four or five years, you guys started what I appear
to be is pretty happy people. But in the time
I've known you, you've seemed like you've grown in happiness.
Maybe I'm wrong in this, but I've known you long
enough and I've kind of watched you, and I would
say people's watching me would say the same thing, Like
I started as a pretty happy person, but over the
last four or five years, I've kind of become more

(50:25):
happiest time goes on. I think a lot of it
doesn't have to do with the things are the experiences.
It's that you guys are doing the things that you
deeply want to do. You're becoming with people you want
to become, And the rest of it is the time
at the beach is about being who you want to be, right,
the family man, the good friend, the like. Those are

(50:47):
the things. Could you do it by having a great
fun weekend in the city close to home and spending
half as much but with the same people. Probably, Well,
we do that too, but you do that too, right,
But it's not very much connect to the money. It's
actually connected to the becoming the person you want to be,
which which I think a lot of us who have
found these kind of second careers of these things that

(51:09):
really light us up that actually still pay the bills.
Like we've been lucky enough to kind of be given
that permission to spend our time becoming who we want
to be.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
And I think we think that certain things are going
to do that for us, and they don't. And it's
funny the things that the things that cost maybe less
money but take more thought on the front end are
often the things that do pay those dividends. And so,
for instance, the thing that I think about every day

(51:39):
that makes me so happy that I walk or bit
to work and it is one of those things where
I have there is no soul sucking commute. I run
into neighbors and friends, these spontaneous instances where we talk
about movies or pizza or whatever, and those things matter
so much to me, Whereas if you're in a car

(52:00):
stuck in traffic, it's a tougher existence. And I'm like,
maybe it costs a little more to live in a
place where I feel like I can walk. That might
be true in some instances, and sometimes living in the
heart of a down to city being close to work,
but maybe it means you can ditch a car, so
maybe it is worth spending a little bit more on
the house. But it's those sorts of decisions I think
that we've made incredibly intentionally living close to each other

(52:24):
where our kids are best friends and we're best friends
and we do a lot of life together like that
matters a lot and provides a lot of dividends in
terms of happiness. But I think often we're thinking about
like how do I get the highest paying job even
if it's a twenty minute more commute every day, and
that's forty more minutes in the car, And ultimately we
come home after spending a lot of hours in traffic
and we're just worn down and we're short tempered, maybe

(52:47):
with the people that we love the most because we
just feel burnt out. And I think those are the
kinds of things that are worth thinking about more. Some
of those things are influenced by money, and you actually
might be better off ultimately taking a job that pays
a little bit less, but that provides you more of
that like life satisfaction and the ability to do more

(53:07):
with your hours than yeah that you want to do.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
It's like a more sustainable existence. Like you talking about
the car, like either same thing. I either buike into
our little office here or I walk. I love the
days when it's like raining and I'm just walking in
the rain with a rain jacket or without.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
A rain jacket. Sometimes he sings in the rain if.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
I'm going home, like I want to even put a
rain jacket on. I'm just like walking in the rain,
and I freaking love it because I am living a
healthy existence that sustainable that to me feels healthy truly,
Like I'm totally I'm one hundred percent fine walking here
in the rain. I'm I got my earbuds in, I'm
listening to an audiobook, like I love what I am
doing right now as opposed to.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
And it's a perspective.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
It's happiness, which book when you guys read it, y, Yeah,
this is those small things we do that we love
or feel joy in the process of doing them, which
is exactly the