Let’s dive into the week with some fresh listener questions we have lined up for you! And don't just stand on the sidelines- if you have a question you’d like us to answer, toss your voice memo our way. It only takes about 90 seconds to record and you can find a step by step guide over at HowToMoney.com/ask . Regardless of how random or bizarre you might think it is, we want to hear it!
1 - My grandparents set me up with an UTMA… what should I do with that money?
2 - Are the student loan repayment calls I’m receiving, legit?
3 - I’ve realized paltry returns from my Betterment account… is it time to cut bait?
4 - What’s a good savings challenge to jumpstart my investing in the new year?
5 - Should unrest in the US push me to invest in gold?
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Best friends out!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel, I am Matt,
and today we're answering your listener questions.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, abuddy, it is Monday, and I am excited
to hear from multiple how to Money listeners. Today. We've
got a listener who is interested in shifting his investments
towards gold. He's looking to diversify. But is he doing
it for the right reasons? And is this something we'd recommend.
We'll get to that one. Another listener is looking to
avoid a potential student loan repayment scam, so we'll cover
(00:46):
the details there. And someone else is unimpressed with some
of the returns that he's gotten from his robo advisor.
Is it the fault of the algorithm? Is he to blame?
Or maybe there's something else going on, Joel that we
can get to as we answer his question.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Do you feel like a private eye when it comes
to that question? Like the Sherlock Holmes trying to uncover
this mystery?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Do you think you'd make a good private investigator? Now?
I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
My attention to detail is lacking. Like you would be
great at that. You would be a good gum shoe.
You'd be like seeing the details.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I would like to think I would be I don't
know if I actually.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Of a footprint, and you'd be like, he wandered off
that way.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There's a It's funny because there's a dive bar near
where we live and I didn't even notice this, but
there's a private eye that's evidently above that that bar
that the lady our wives brought to my attention. I'm like, wait,
what are you talking about. They're like, have you never
seen the sign? And they specialize in relational investigation. They're
totally like having us followed. I hope you know. It
(01:41):
seems like that. It's the kind of private eye that
keeps an eye on the other partner, that kind of thing.
And I was like, wait a minute, it's like that show.
Why is this? Is this something you're considering? What's going
on here? I felt like I was missing a big
part of the story. Yeah, I got nothing to hide. Yeah,
bring it on.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, all right, real quick, before we get into the
list of our questions, I just wanted to mention Jonathan Clements,
who you start for the Wall Street Journal, has a
website called The Humble Dollar. He's such a fantastic dude.
He's been detailing recently on the Humble Dollar, his bout
with cancers, diagnosis with cancer, and the fact that he
doesn't have much longer to live, and I just like
(02:16):
really appreciate, by the way, like how honest and forthcoming
he's been with the struggle that is, and and just
kind of the all the money stuff that goes along
with it too. Not on that note, though, he had
an article on his website about how people should track
allow their insurance companies to track their driving because they
can save big dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
He's still focusing on the thing that he loves, which
is personal finance and investing, so sometimes he covers that
overlap even in the midst of it all.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and then sometimes it's like just random money saving
articles still and yeah, I know, I think last time
we talked about this, we got a lot of pushback
and people were saying, like, I don't want that in
invasion of privacy in my life, dude. But like the
truth is, you can potentially save quite a bit of money.
Typically when you have your driving tracked by your insurance company,
you don't stand to lose anything. You can only save money,
(03:04):
supposedly based on what they tell you. And I think
if you drive cautiously not.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
You might end up being part of the class actual
loss where you'll get paid seventy seven dollars and ten years.
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's a good point. But I do think like, if
you drive relatively reasonably well, you should consider it, just
especially with what's happening with insurance traits these days.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
On a related note, having kids also makes you drive
more carefully, Joe. I don't know if you've noticed this,
but do your kids yell at other drivers or like
if we're if you're waiting in line and the light
turns green, are they're like, go buddy, the like's greed.
They start saying that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
No, they like to mess with pedestrians sometimes, like just
yell at them randomly out the window, which is terrible.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I tell them this, stop. They're a nuisance. They are
those kids. They're those kids. They like throwing like empty
as you drive by. No, they don't do that, but
it came on beer kids. It's half enjoyed. Capri Son's right.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
No, they think they're funny. They think they're funny, and
they make try to make funny comments as we're driving
by and I'm like they don't think that's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
They you just scared. You need you need to stop that. Yeah, well,
well maybe I am confessing what it is that I say,
because our kids learn from us, you know, like there
are little sponges. And I've known this forever, but I'm
realizing that more and more they're learning how to drive
based on how I drive, and it's causing me, like truly,
to drive more carefully when they're in the vehicle, which
should probably be the case anyway, but typically you're just
(04:19):
trying to get from point A to point B, but
paying more attention to the speed limit, not trying to
eke in under that light that's turning yellow from yellow
to red. I guess I'm pointing out additional accountability that's
taking place by having kids in the car, maybe not
unlike having your driving monitored. Buy an insurance company. So
if you don't have.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
A kid, steal a nephew or a niece or something
like that, let them ride along with you. Either that
or put in one of these I don't know, monitoring systems.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Right, Joel loves it when the Amberillers go out to
everybody after he's stolen his nephew he's fine, he's with me.
Do you remember what it was like coming home from
the hospital for the first time with your first baby? Yeah,
how carefully you're driving. It's so funny how things just
change and you have a couple of kids and you
don't think about it as much. But like, I've never
driven so carefully and sell on eggshells and so like,
(05:05):
right at the speed limit in the far right lane
on the interstate, making sure that I was doing everything
I can to not get hit. But I think having
more of that mentality because not only will it help
when it comes to insurance, I guess, but also just
the wear and tear on your vehicle, man, Like, Like
when you are accelerating less aggressively, when you're breaking less aggressively,
your tires are going to be in better shape, your
brakes are going to be in better shape. You're gonna
(05:26):
get better gas mileage. Yeah, just better overall maintenance on
the vehicle.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, just a little PSA. All right, that's basically the
beer we're having on today's episode, Matt. It's oatmeal raisin
cookie quad, which sounds decadent. So I'm excited to have
this one. Is this is so good today on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You've already enjoyed a couple of SIPs.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, we'll give our thoughts so good in our review
at the end of the episode. But if you have
a money question we'd love to hear from you. Just
record your question on the voicemail map of your phone.
Send it our way if you want the details, just
got to have to money dot com slash ask and
if we get your question in before the end of
the year, we'll send you some how to money socks.
The more interesting your question, the more likely we are
(06:03):
to take it. So submit your interesting money questions. That
is true, Yeah, and hopefully we'll get you on the
next episode. Matt, let's get to a question from a
young adult actually has a chunk of change at her
disposal that didn't come from her.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Hi, Matt Ajoel, my name is Laura. I'm from Saint Louis, Missouri.
I've been listening to the podcast for just about a
year now. I really like the show and you guys
have been a huge help on my financial journey so far.
So I have a question about UTMA accounts. I am
an adult. I am twenty eight, but I have an
(06:37):
UTMA that was set up for me by my grandparents,
and I know several other people who are in a
similar situation. And my general question is, once you're an adult,
what should you be doing with this account? I've been
leaving the money there and making withdrawals occasionally for purchases
regarding college.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I know other.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
People who used it in part to pay for or wedding.
But I would love some advice on what I should
actually be doing with the money and if it needs
to come out of that account and go into something else.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
All right, Laura, I will say you've got some cool
grand Did she say her grandparents left you that money?
Not only does she have cool grandparents, but her friends
have cool grandparents as well, Because she said, she sounds
like she knows a few folks.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
She's running in circles with fellow UTMA inheritors.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I need a I don't know. It must be
in the water there and where was it in Missouri?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Missouri?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I don't think I know. At least nobody that I
know has told me that they inherited a Nutma. I
certainly didn't.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
There's lots of things I don't tell you. Yeah, I
know you know your secret. No, ugma on over here
in my account's lineup?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Should we just mention I think sometimes people gloss over
that term utma ugma. They're these specific accounts that where
people can save ahead for a minor save and invest ahead,
save and invest ahead, and then when the miner reaches
the age of maturity, they basically inherit that money they
can do whatever they want with it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Sure, but Laura, I love that you've been disciplined with
the funds that you have on hand there, Like you
didn't go buy a fancy new car or something like that.
I am sure that there are other folks out there
in the world in your situation who would have been
tempted into that direction. But you know, I would say,
depending on how much money we're talking about here, and
what your goals are, what your financial I was gonna
(08:20):
say financial goals, but like it's not financial. We're talking
about goals that you are going to potentially fund with
this money that's could have a significant impact on your future.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, And I kind of just kind of out briefly
outlined what utmos are and ugmas and Uniform Transfer to
Miners Act, Uniform Gift to Miners Act is like what.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It stands for.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
And we're usually talking about this from the other side
of the equation, right, we're talking to parents or grandparents
who are looking to help the next generation, and they're saying, Hey,
Matt and Joel, should we put money into one of
these accounts for a baby or a little kiddo who
we love and we want them to set them up
for future financial success. And that is and that is
a question that is worth discussing. But Laura is the
(09:00):
next generation, right, she is the inheritor, the person who
has received the good fortune of somebody else's smart and
intelligence and kind moves. And just to reiterate, by the way,
depending on the state that folks live in, the UPMA
account goes fully into the hands of the beneficiary at
age eighteen or twenty one, and in some states age
twenty five. So depending on your state specific laws, it
(09:22):
depends when you're going to get the money. Laura's twenty eight,
so she's had access to the money for a little
bit of time. So to have only spent the money
for education and to have most of those funds intact
at age twenty eight is quite a feat and it
means that her grandparents' trust was well placed. You've likely
seen that account balance grow depending on how it's invested
(09:43):
as well, Laura, which is awesome. So you've just seen
that kind of continue to amass and it's like a
snowball rolling downhill and you're like, wait a second, way
more money than when I first inherited this thing, which
is a good problem to have. But now let's talk
about what do you do with the money. We don't
necessarily want you to spend it, but you also might
not want to leave it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Bet you could spend it, would just spend it in
the right way. Yeah, I will say you'll have a
capital gains tax bill on hand when you start to
pull those dollars out. It's not the end of the world,
just something to be aware of. But just start outlining
some of these different upcoming goals that you have that
might be expensive. Do you have a home, Well, if not,
do you want one? Because using this money as a
(10:22):
down payment could be a fantastic use for it. Maybe. So,
I think she said she's twenty eight, Maybe she's been
out of school for a little bit, but maybe she
wants to go back to school, grad school. Perhaps I
think this money could be very helpful in that way
as well. Even she mentioned like some friends using enough
to pay for a wedding. I think that's in another
reasonable use case. But the first use of these funds
(10:44):
would be to use them to pay for some of
these bigger goals in life that you would otherwise hopefully
not but a lot of folks are resorted to debt
in order to accomplish these goals. So I would find
a way to avoid some of these. I don't want
to say the worst forms of debt, but if you're
a able to not have to pay any financing on
some of these goals that you do want to achieve,
(11:05):
that that's where my head goes first.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, if you can eliminate the need for debt for
just a bigger personal goal like that, or reduce your
need for debt, like let's say, in the event of
a home purchase like you alluded to, Matt, maybe Hey,
this allows you to put twenty or twenty five percent
down instead of putting five percent down. That's pretty cool, right,
because that'll reduce your monthly mortgage payment, that'll eliminate PMI like,
(11:28):
it's a really smart financial move to use. I think
up of funds for a bigger thing like that. If
you're so inclined and you know you're in the phase
of life where this money I think could help you
do something really smart for your financial future. Have you
thought about house hacking or becoming a real estate investor?
And I think you know, house hacking is one of
those things that Laura could do. Use this as down
payment money and then also at the same time potentially
(11:48):
minimize her housing costs. I think the nudge here is
to encourage you not to just think about expensive purchases,
but to think about making moves that are going to
benefit you over the long haul, like in the years
and decade to come. Matt, you mentioned grad school, like
that could be a thing too, right, increasing her future
earnings if that's of interest to her. Also, I mean,
if she's inclined towards owning and managing real estate, this
(12:11):
could really be the seed money to pull that off.
Like you'd be taking money from an investment account, money
that's already kind of essentially working for to build up
wealth through your future, and you'd be using them to
buy income producing assets that go up in value over time.
It's not for everyone investing in real estate, but I
think it is, especially if you're going in the house
(12:32):
hacking direction, it can be one of the one of
the best financial levers that you can pull. So I
think it's just worth putting that on your radar as
something that might make sense.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
For the use of some of this money.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Sure, yeah, depending on how much there is, Like, we
don't know how much there is.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Either that is true. I think she's also wondering whether
or not she should take this money out of this
account and put it into a different account. And so
I'm not sure if you are currently able to fully
fund a roth ira or not. My guess is that
you are working since you are twenty eight years old,
and if you have enough earned income, which is highly likely,
but maybe you just don't have enough extra free cash
on hand in order to max out that roth ira. Right,
(13:07):
we're talking about seven thousand dollars every single year. Well,
pulling a bit from your UTMA each year to ensure
that you get as much money in that roth ira
as possible. I think that is a smart move. Yes, indeed,
you are paying a little bit of tax now, but
maxing out your roth IRA every year is going to
shelter you from future tax bombs down the road, and
(13:27):
I would be interested in doing that, especially too, you
didn't say who you have the UTMO with, and so
I would be paying close attention to any potential fees
that are associated with that account or the investments. Maybe
it's not the brokerage that you're with. Let's say they
charge zero zero dollars for an annual fee, Well, what
kind of funds are you invested? Like, what are the
expense ratios there on those funds? Because it could vary
(13:49):
wildly depending on the brokerage, and especially if this was
something that was set up like years and even decades ago.
There's a chance. Man, it makes me think of I
had a buddy and he started investing in American fund
which I'm sure there are some great American funds out there,
but I remember at the time they had some massive
fees associated with them, like no joke, in the two
to three percent range, not like zero point two percent,
(14:11):
point three percent, literally two to three percent. And so
if I robbery right there, if that was the case,
then I would be in more of a hurry to
get my funds out of this UTMA. But otherwise, I mean,
if it's a low cost provider, and it's widely diversified.
There's not necessarily any rush to get those funds out
of that UTMA.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So and I think you're pointing something out here too, Matt. Yeah,
look at the investment fees, but also look at the investments, right,
because what did your grandparents, What sort of funds did
they put your investments in. Maybe they're not high expense ratios,
but maybe they're too conservative, right, So you might want
to have more a higher stock allocation in your investments
inside of the UTMA.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And that's something worth looking at as well. So, Laura,
when it comes down to it, I'd be thinking about
this money as allowing you to make bigger financial moves
that you'd otherwise have to delay or push further down
the road.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And she's got that seed money, which I'm sure honestly
is exactly what her great parents intended for it to be.
The other thing we didn't even really talk about was well,
maybe you want to launch a business or something like that,
and this could be seed money for that. I mean,
there's all sorts of things where it can feel like
you don't have the runway, but this is like added
support to allow you to really go in a whole
bunch of different directions. I was just thinking about it
as extra jet fuel though, propelling you towards the future
(15:18):
that you want, not as money for consumption in the
near term, and also helping to fuel bigger financial goals
like home ownership, not as kind of money for pittoy
spending here and there, right, that you could pull off.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
In the near term. And maybe just a portion of
this money, because I just said, don't spend it on
pilly stuff, maybe a portion of it does make sense
for fun stuff, right, maybe five to ten percent of it.
This is the time of her life where probably her
friends are going to be getting married. Maybe there's destination weddings,
maybe she's got to be a bridesmaid in a wedding
or something like that. And it's easy to say I
can't afford that, I'm not going to do that, and
(15:54):
you miss out on some kind of good times because
of that, maybe being overly frugal. And so I would say, well,
let's take a portion of this, and whether it's a
trip with friends, whether it's whatever else, something else is
going to bring you joy. Consider taking some of those
up funds and getting at least a little bit of
pleasure out of the ability to use them right now,
in the here and now, or in the next.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Year or two.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I think having a plan is wise been optimizing every
single dollar would likely be a bummer.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Two.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I really like the idea of using
it for like these one off things that you would say,
well that I can't fit that into my budget. Like
I like the idea of having something that feels more
aggressive and a conservative budget. But then if you have
like these sort of one off things that kind of
fall into your life that normally you would say no
to because it's that sort of outside of the bounds
of how it is that you want to live. But
then you're able to say, well, I got the Utler money.
This is maybe more of a once a year, special
(16:41):
occasion sort of thing that I'm tapping it for. And
I think that would would allow you to, in fact
have I don't know, like an increased aptitude or like
a widened aperture of what life could look like for
you without totally subscribing to doing something like this every
single year. He's like best of both worlds. Yeah, right,
you're locking yourself in being disciplined with your money, but like, oh,
(17:02):
there's the occasional splurs here in there.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I mean kind of like we talk about with investing,
where yeah, five percent of it can be used on
single stocks and crypto and stuff like that. We'll do
the same with this five percent when it comes to
your spending, and then do the smart long term stuff
with the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
But Joe, we got more to get to, including whether
or not robots are better investors than we are. We'll
get to that more right after this.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
All right, Matt, we're back.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We've got a question about one of my least favorite things,
student loans.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Gentlemen, my name is Zach. I am in Bend, Oregon.
My student loans were through a company called Naviant, and
recently I've been getting emails, phone calls, and texts from
a company called Mohela telling me that I'm six months
delinquent and that I needed to pay right away or
(17:57):
certain things were going to happen financially against me. So
I called this mohalah Ela to discuss the Navviant loans
that apparently went delinquent somehow even though I had auto
pay turned on. And Mohala said, well, give us fifty
dollars right now over the phone, and we can push
(18:20):
your forbearants back until January when we would start to
continue the monthly payment of about one hundred and thirty bucks. Anyway, emails,
phone calls, tech started doubling, threatens, harassment, all that started doubling.
Now I'm questioning, is this Mohala company legit and in general,
(18:43):
what is the best way to pay off student loans
without dealing with these reselling of loans or harassment with
collection companies or auto pays or anything in that nature.
If you have any advice, I had a preciate it. Hey,
thanks guys, best friends out.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Oh Matt, what's better? What's better than text messages for
people who are trying to like rip money out of
your life?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Text for people who are saying, hey, I've got money
for you, just send us your all your personal information.
That I would say maybe equally as dangerous. But Zach,
first off, here, man, these tactics that are being used
sound ridiculous. They sound quite untowed. It appears that your
loan has been transferred to Mohila, which is another student
loan servicer.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, he was basically asking about their legitimacy. The they're
a legit company.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and I think it stands so it's the MO
part stands for Missouri, but it's the HILA is the
I think Higher Education Loan Authority or something something like that.
But they are they are a legit company. They are
not necessarily a good company. All of the Internet. They
seem to agree that their customer service is one of
the worst. And the reason that you're your loan is
(19:52):
no longer with Naviant, the company who you originally went with,
is because they are barred from servicing federal student loans.
Moving forward, everyone's doing stuff. Everyone's doing a great.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Job here student loan space full of great people doing
great stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Were they're treating borrowers so horribly, steering them into inappropriate
products that cost more and actually harmed recent grads credit scores.
The student loan space is a complete mess, and unfortunately
I don't necessarily seeing it getting cleaned up anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
So was Naviant like the en Run of student loans
and mohilas like the Comcast of student loans. I don't know,
it's really hard to kind of peg them to other
companies that really really suck that people tend to hate.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But then Comcast pivoted and it's Exfinity. Yeah right, it's
not Infinity sucks. It was Comcast.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
It was a different company to give themselves a new
name because everyone hated them so much, and then people
are like rebranded. Well, the Accunity person showed up my door.
They seem nice, and it's like, well, yeah, it's lipstick
on a pig here. Well, and that's I think sometimes
what is happening with these student loan providers, right, Student
Loan Planner, which is we've had people on from their
company before Matt. They're awesome folks. They had an article
(20:59):
about just how the major student loan service providers are
and they rank them in order of which ones are
the worst, and they're all kind of mostly not great,
but Mohila tops the list as being the worst. And
if they're harassing you, which it sounds like they are,
I would report them to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
the CFPB, which you can go to their website consumer
(21:20):
finance dot gov or maybe both. I would file a
complaint with your state's attorney general as well, just letting
them know, hey, this company is harassing me. They're doing
some ridiculous things. They're making some absurd asks that's not okay,
right what they're doing and how they're talking to you
and the ways they're communicating with you. So now let's
talk about maybe how you move forward with these jerks
(21:42):
at Mohila And basically, well, you're not as delayed in
your payment as they're making it sound from everything we
know about student loans and what's happening with student loan
payments right now, because even after student loan payments started
again last year, there was a mandatory on ramp period,
which means you couldn't be penalized for not paying through
(22:03):
the end of September. And also what planned you're on
determines whether or not you even need to start paying
right now exactly. So if you're on the Safe plan,
which we don't know you didn't mention it in your question,
you're still technically in forbearance for the time being and
you will likely continue to be for some months to come.
If you didn't sign up for Safe, you might need
to start paying, but still it's not like you're like
(22:23):
six months behind or something like that. Mohela might want
to make it sound like that, but that's not actually
the facts on the ground.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
They've just implemented some aggressive collections practices here, but not
paying that would still cause interest to accrue. But you
were able to avoid late fees, collections efforts, and negative
hits to your credit score for that one year period.
But after the end of that arm phase that Joe's
talking about there, all those other realities are back in
play unless you are in save. If not, it is
(22:51):
important to get current on your payment and to do
so quickly in order to avoid those repercussions. You asked
as well about avoiding getting migrated to a different servicer
on your student loans, right, and just how much of
a big of a pain in the butt this is.
I wish I had better news here, but sadly, there's
no way to avoid that. It's just one of the many.
It's the modern financial system that we currently are living in,
(23:13):
like the same with like your mortgage payment exactly like
you don't have. You might refinance or might take out
a mortgage with a certain bank, and they might sell
it two months down the road, six months down the road,
and you get the paperwork and you have to figure
out a whole new back end system and get that
stuff set up. It's annoying, but it's also just kind
of part of the reality, like you said, Matt, of
the modern financial system. So it's an indignity you have
to put up with. And I'm not sure, Zach, what
(23:34):
your overall financial situation looks like and how big of
a financial burden your student loans are for you. And
student loans, by the way, are incredibly difficult to get
out of. They stick to you like glue. They're one
of these things where you take them out. And basically
on almost every other financial product, there are ways to
cut the strings. With student loans, there almost aren't. But
(23:55):
if your payment is something you truly can't afford, it
is possible to have them just discharge partially or fully
in bankruptcy if you can prove something known as undue hardship.
And this isn't a step to take lightly, and there's
no guarantee that when you claim undue hardship that you're
going to be able to prove it. The standard is
(24:16):
quite high. But I'm just wanting to mention it because
it is something that more people have been able to do,
even though it's still a really difficult hurdle to jump over. Sure, Yeah,
and as we're looking ahead. The truth is everyone with
student loans might have a tougher time. Like we don't
know exactly how the next administration are going to approach
student loans, but it's certainly not going to be as
(24:38):
dubvish and kind as the Biden administration has been. I'm
sure we'll be talking about it pretty regularly here on
the show throughout all of next year twenty twenty five.
And so it's just best to start planning for the
potential elimination of favorable income based repayment programs like Save
and the likelihood of higher payments going forward, and just
as future students are starting to play I think these
(25:00):
less general student loan payment options and plans it makes
it even more important for folks as they're considering they're
borrowing load, right like the debt that they're looking to
take on. One other things you wanted to mention, Zach
talked about making these payments over the phone, which makes
me nervous as well, like I don't like getting phone
calls from people that I don't necessarily know and then
giving them money, sort of like you're talking about all
(25:20):
as far as receiving text from folks if it was me,
I would not be paying a single dollar over the phone. A.
I don't like answering the phone. B. I would rather
do it by like via the Mohilo or Mohila whatever,
the online portal where you've got a paper trail. The
ability to see payments in that way when they come
and say, hey, you receive this payment, you have a screenshot,
(25:41):
you have a confirmation number. Instead.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If I talked to Susie over the phone and she
said I was just said.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it was gonna get applied to my account. Just
the ability to get in there and do that to
make sure you're doing everything on the up and up,
and while you're in there too. I don't know if
click over and check out your profile and see if
they have your phone number there, because I think maybe
even just attempting to remove that from your profile might
allow them to not be able to reach out to
you so directly. Because what they're doing here is they're
(26:08):
trying to get people to pay more than they need to,
right Like what if there's somebody who is on the
safe plan and they've only got it like a couple
more years, but they're getting so inundated with messages emails, calls,
text messages that they're like, you know what, it's only
three thousand dollars. I've got four thousand dollars sitting right
now in my same mus account. Let me just let
me just pay it off and then whatever it takes,
then I don't have to worry about it at all
(26:29):
because you're just so fed up with it. But that's
not the emotional state or point that we want to
get you. That's where they want to get you to
where they're getting paid as opposed to just having that,
you know, having that forgiven if you're within the Safe
Program or something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And again, safe program might be on on the rails
and it might not last. Not even you mentioned the
next administration map that might be part of it, but
it could just also be court rulings right that undo
the Safe Plan because it wasn't properly implemented. The reality
for student loan borrowers is going to shift in the
coming months. We'll continue to talk about this, but Zach,
hopefully for you this hew and you need to stick
(27:01):
up for yourself with Mohila. It's really tough because they're
like a ten thousand pound gorilla that wants to push
you around, and you got to push back. All right, man,
Let's get to a question about robo advising for medium
term savings goals.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Hey, Matt Joel, this is Dan from New York City.
I've been listening to the podcast for several years and
appreciate all you guys. Do I have a question for you.
I have some money in a betterment account that's set
aside to be used just a couple of years from now,
would be part of a home purchase. It's on auto
adjust and they keep reallocating more into bonds, currently thirty
(27:34):
four sixty six stocks to bonds. It hasn't got a
great return. It's gotten about eight percent total return since
March twenty twenty, and so I'm wondering if I'd be
better off just moving into a savings account instead. Part
of me has felt that I should just trust the
process and that maybe most of the games would come
as time goes on it gets closer to the target date,
(27:56):
but it just seems like a very low return and
I'm not really sure if that's actually going to happen.
So just wondering what the best thing for the money
in this account would be from this point forward.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thanks ooh Joe. Eight percent since twenty twenty. I'm pretty
sure what he's saying there is eight percent total, so
he's we're looking at an average of two percent a year.
Not the kind of position that I would want to
find myself in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And not the position, to be honest and not to
rub salt in the woundstand that many people find themselves
and given kind of what's happened even with just basic
saving straight so this that's really tough to.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Endure, that is true. Let's address Betterment first. As far
as we can tell, it's the best one out there
on the market in our opinion, and they've sort of
changed the game right like they have given DIY investors
a middle of the road choice that isn't either just
like a low cost brokerage firm like one of our
favorites like Fidelity or Vanguard, where you are completely on
your own, You're you're flying solo. That's one option, but
(28:51):
then the other option is, okay, I got to hire
a fully fledged financial advisor. Well, Betterment is offering that
sort of middle of the road path, offer fairly reasonable
price and with other and whistles that can help you
to stay the course. When it comes to your investing.
And actually it was a couple of weeks ago we
talked with Dan Egan, who is over there at Betterment.
He's a behavioral psychologist on the team. We'd recommend for
(29:12):
folks to listen to that episode if you missed it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, it gives you kind of some inside baseball onto
how Betterment system is run and how it's kind of
set up to help people make better decisions with their investments.
And Dan, these medium term money goal questions are often
the hardest to tackle, right. We've talked about those regularly
on the show. Depending on what your timeline is and
what your risk tolerance is, it can be really hard
to figure out exactly what you should be doing if
(29:36):
you have a money goal that's two, three, four or
five years down the road, and you are, of course
disappointed with your returns because the stock market has been
crushing it and you've had your money in more conservative
investment choices and the returns have been even below that
of a savings account these days, although Matt I think
what savings rates ticked up in twenty twenty two significantly,
(29:57):
back in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, they were still
pretty paltry, And I totally get that you'll be bummed
out by that, but I also have to have to
say that that's the nature of target date funds that
start out with a decent chunk of bond exposure and
bonds have not done so well over the past five years,
and then those accounts get adjusted to have more and
more bonds that closer you get to target the target date.
(30:19):
And when you look at the performance of total bond
dtfs like Vanguard's B and D, it's actually had a
negative return since March of twenty twenty, minus ten percent,
to be exact. So the more heavily it's not something
you could have predicted. This is one of those things
that happens, though, when you're investing in the stock market
and in the bond market, and the more heavily towards
bonds your portfolio has been allocated, Unfortunately, the worse it's
(30:42):
performed for you.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, and Dan said, should I just trust the process?
And this is an instance where we would say, well, no,
you don't actually want to trust the process. You trust
the process if you're invested in the stock market when
you've got rolling time rolling returns well and it's not
just about time. It's the fact that literally his portfolio
is literally changing to be more conservative, which means likely
that it's going to continue to underperform. Right, So as
(31:05):
you gain more bond exposure, you're looking for preservation of capital.
You're looking for most folks are looking for a more
stable portfolio, which means that you're not going to see
like a rebound. I guess Dan, on the returns that
you've seen so far, unfortunately, like you basically have seen
like the you've experienced the worst four year period when
(31:26):
it comes to bonds since like the Great Recession, and
that is just again that's the nature of investing in
the market. It's not necessarily guaranteed, but it is what
bonds seek to do, which is to provide stability to portfolios.
And I you know, it's tough to miss out on
a bowl market like this when you are looking at
the stock market, but hopefully you have experienced some of
those gains in other accounts like a four roh andin
(31:47):
k or within an IRA that you have.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I mean, maybe it's cold comfort, but those dollars are
designated for decades down the road, and they should be
invested mostly in the stock market, so you haven't completely
missed the glory. Is just this important portion of your
money for a down payment, but it's for a good reason, right,
Like what if the market. Let's say you're invested fully
in the stock market and the market were down thirty
percent this year instead of it being up well, your
(32:12):
goal of buying a home would likely need to be
punted much further down the road. Rather than not having
the most optimal returns, you possibly would have even lost money.
So that's important to keep in mind, because once you
know why you're making the decision, and you have a
good why for not investing those dollars fully in the market,
I think we would recommend for you to kind of
(32:33):
get zen with whatever results come your way, knowing that
you did the right thing. In this way, you have
sort of trusted the process. But I guess he's asking
what to do now, and there is an action that
he can take from this point moving forward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And I get why you would say the results didn't
pan out as well as I'd hoped, or as well
as I could have had I just been in like
a straight up savings account. But that doesn't mean that
you did the wrong thing, right. I think that's what
you're saying, Matt, is like you might have still you
still made the decision for the right reason, and it's
important to highlight that because you don't want to brace
yourself for this move when you really shouldn't. And so
(33:07):
he did the right thing at the time, knowing what
he knew exactly In hindsight, it's like, well, yeah, of
course I should have just stuck my money in savings accounts,
so then at least gotten that. But well, you know,
but savings account rate sucked when he was doing this
in twenty twenty two. So it's like, you can't beat
yourself up over this, and you can't cry over spilled milk.
So what do you do with that account?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Now?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
What do you do with the money in that account?
I would personally want those dollars in savings unless you're
willing to expand your timeline, like two years down the
road just really isn't that far at this point, and
it would be an absolute shame to expose yourself to
too much risk when you're getting closer and closer.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
To your goal.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And we've discussed this on the show before, but CDs
are the perfect vehicle for a home down payment. These days,
rates on high save these accounts. They are starting to fall,
although they're not terrible, and you can lock in a
CD rate that can protect you against further rate drops.
So I see that as like a solid happy medium. Yeh,
to kind of preserve this capital and grow it without
(34:01):
taking on undue risk and potentially underperforming that savings like
you're saving, to mind, underperformed the bond market in the
coming two years. But I think it's given the timeframe
that you have left until this really important purchase, that's
the route.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I would want to take. Yeah, and there are two
year CDs out there that are over four percent that
you can find. And I would say the more flexible
you are, the more risk on that you can choose
to be, Because if you decide that renting is not
all that bad, maybe you wouldn't mind staying put for
another four years or so if need be well. If so,
then you can choose to be more stock heavy. You
can invest more aggressively, even if you want to buy
(34:36):
in two years. But you've got no problem kicking the
can down the road based on market conditions, right, Like
you don't have to decide now what it is that
you're going to do, you can decide in a couple
of years. If so, then investing a little more aggressively
in the market I think could be a good option.
It's not a great route for everyone to take, because
I think most folks aren't willing to have a more
sort of amorphous timeline. But if you are an optimizer
(34:58):
who doesn't mind being flexible, I think that could be
the best choice for you.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So, Dan, we hope that helps. We know that the
outcome over the past few years in this account hasn't
been what you hoped it would be, but we hope
you're able to continue growing those dollars over the next
couple of years and buy that house you want when
you're ready. We got more questions to get to on
this ask htm episode, including we'll talk about savings challenges
and unrest in the US and what that means for
(35:22):
your portfolio. We'll get to those questions right after this.
All right, Joe, we are back from the break.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Let's get to some more personal finance topics. It is
now time for the Facebook Question of the Week, which
is from Justin and he wrote, can anyone recommend a
savings challenge. I'm looking to participate in one or two,
but I am interested in those that offer savings advice
and ways to minimize spending. A Google search showed an
overwhelming number of them, so I wasn't sure where to start.
(35:54):
Any that you would recommend, Joel, you personally, what would
you recommend?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
That's a good question, Matt, and I think people feel.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Do you like savings challenges at all? Like, what's the
what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Do like savings challenge? I feel like last time we
talked about this, we got some flak from some listeners
and they're like, it's just moving deck chairs around on
the Titanic or something. That was kind of the general
response for people your.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Personal finances are going down, don't even try.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well, or it's just you're just shuffling dollars around, and
so a savings challenge isn't actually doing anything meaningful for you.
But I disagree. I totally disagree. Some people find them gimmicky,
and I do think past a certain point in your
financial journey they become unnecessary. But for a whole lot
of folks who aren't inherently frugal or on the front
end of the money gears. Money challenges can make a
(36:38):
real difference I think in your mindset kind of in
how you just approach your personal finances in general. They
can start to shift you towards greater levels of frugality
and just intentionality with your money. And it could also
actually make a difference in your trajectory towards building wealth too.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, you will literally hopefully see more in your savings,
but it can just provide a framework, I think for
folks when you are well just looking at your general
personal finances, like you've got a savings account or whatever,
and there's no there's no like guardrails, there's no parameters,
there's and you don't even know what goals to set
out for yourself. But having a savings challenge can give
you something very achievable that can I think provide some
(37:13):
movement for folks.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Especially especially if you're like I'm in the e fund phase,
whether it's in the very first money gear of establishing
that twenty four hundred and sixty seven dollars emergency fund,
or if you're in the money gear where you're trying
to mass that three to six months, Like if you're
just trying to stop file that cash. These savings challenges
can help like get you there quicker, absolutely, and.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
So we would recommend for you to head over to
our website. We actually have the few over there for
you to check out. But one that comes to mind
is the Paintry challenge. This is a food related challenge, right,
This is a way to try and cut your grocery
bill significantly over the course of a month.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Well, I thought you were going to say, this is
where you rent out your pantry on Airbnb for someone
to stan in.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, it's a form of extreme house house yeah right, No,
you literally just like empty your freezer, empty your pantry,
make do with what you've got on hand. Maybe only
head to the grocery store for like fresh veggies and milk,
but otherwise we are going to make meals based on
what we have on hand. But you can also challenge
yourself not to eat out for a full month, right,
Like you are packing your lunch, you're meal planning, you
(38:12):
are making bulk meals on Sundays. We've got friends who
do like the breakfast burritos and they freeze them. They
stick them in the freezer and then they take them
to work and they throw them in the microwave, that
kind of thing. But I think that's another challenge than
not eating out for a month challenge. That's another one
that can help you to cut down on that food
spending specifically.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, and those are the kind of things where normally
we just go with the flow and our food bill
remains elevated because we're not making significant changes, or maybe
we're just kind of like nibbling around the edges. And
the more extreme you can make it, the truth is
you'll realize, oh, wait, I've actually got a lot of
food randomly hanging out in my pantry or in my freezer.
That and I you know, it might not be the
(38:50):
most appetizing meal by like day twenty eight of the month,
but you're able to do it. You're able to pull
it off, and just to prove yourself that it can
be done, and to see how much money you might
be able to not funnel towards grocery stores there for
a hot minute, it can be pretty impressive. And yeah,
I think it could be confidence building when it comes
to your personal financial progress.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I think more than anything, that's what these challenges do.
They prove to yourself that in fact, can be done. Yeah,
but you have more control and agency of your life
than you thought otherwise.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I mean, we talk about the barebones budget sometimes, Matt,
and that's not like a money challenge per se. But
I think everyone should create a barebones budget, and that
is just to say, well, what if I did get unemployed,
what are the bear essentials I need to be spending
money on every single month? And it's like the roof
over the head, and it is the groceries on the table, right,
But then there it proves to you that there are
so many other things you actually could live without, and
(39:37):
maybe all of the fluff that actually is in outgoing
every month. And it's not that you want to eliminate
all those things from your life and just live a
monastic existence or something like that, but just by actually
doing the step of creating the bare bones budget, it
can be enlivening, I think, to realize that there are
a lot of changes you could make if you needed to,
and that you can make just because you want to.
(39:58):
If you want to make quicker progress, you could also
so I think challenge yourself to cut out all of
your recurring subscriptions for an entire month, and you might
end up leaving some of those subscriptions behind for good.
You can always, of course, go back to the ones
that you love and sign up again. You can say
I really miss Netflix or whatever it is and then
jump back, but I don't know for a whole month
to be like no streaming. What's this look like for
(40:18):
our family? And what's this look like for our budget?
There are other good ones on the list on our
website as well at how toomoney dot com. There's the
Seller Stuff Challenge or the wroth Ira challenge. And you know,
we like the selling stuff one because you're decluttering and
you're bringing money into your life, and then you can
use that money to fund the roth Ira that do
both at the same time. Maybe make the selling your
stuff thing be the funding the roth Ira challenge and
(40:41):
then yeah, I think while these challenges can act like
a financial stimulus of sorts, the goal is to keep
some of these habits up. But maybe with a little
more moderation than an extreme month long savings challenge would
encourage people to do.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
That's right, and again you can find this up on
the website at howdomoney dot com a list of those
different challenges. Joe, let's take another one from John. He wrote,
We're concerned about where the US is headed and might
see a lot of unrest or even a civil war,
which would possibly collapse the dollar. I'm considering investing ten
percent of our assets in gold as a hedge. What
are your thoughts? First off, what's your personal opinion on gold?
(41:18):
Did you see the movie Civil War by A twenty four?
I did not? Did you? Yeah? Not great? Didn't like
it and mad in love? I thought you normally like
A twenty four? So I do? I do?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
They make great movies? That one was not one of
their best? Was this one too prepper? Too prepper heavy
for you?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
No? I like prepper stuff even I can like dystopian.
Why no prepper genre? I know some real sci fi dystopian. Yeah,
I like that stuff too. It doesn't mean just because
you know what prepper doesn't mean you like watching prepper movies.
I don't like watching prepper TV shows. But yeah, okay,
But let's let's get to John's actual question here. And
I think politics has got a whole lot of people
(41:51):
on edge right now, Matt. I think that's to me,
what this question highlights is that there's this kind of
general reticence that people have about what's happening in our
our culture and what's happening in our political sphere. And
I know that John is not alone in feeling this way,
But he's also not alone in the context of human history,
which I think it's important to point out. It's not
that truly consequential things that alter our existence and our
(42:14):
future don't happen. Like we've all lived through COVID, a
that was a true life changing experience for a whole
lot of people, for almost everyone listening to the show.
But it's also hard to know in advance which events
are going to make a significant impact and what the
fallout is going to be, right, Like, I think in
twenty nineteen, a lot of us thought we knew what
(42:34):
the future was going to hold, and then as COVID
came about, there were a lot of predictions about what
the future was going to entail, like, Hey, this is
what COVID is going to change in our lives. Business
travel is dead. New York City never coming back. No
one's going to want to live there anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
On top of each other, because the pandemic has proved
that large cities and.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Most the point of living in a city when there's
no entertainment to be had, right, no Broadway.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Right, the millennials are moving to rural America, and this
is going to change the face of the country for
the Yeah, it didn't happen, right, even work from Home,
which was like lauded as this is going to change everything,
and it has in some respects, but in other ways we're.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Talking about where every single week there's another company yes,
or another government agency that yes, like oh, now we're
going we're gonna go back to four, if not five
days a week.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
So none of those things that we all thought were
going to be true indefinitely moving forward turned out to
be true. So I guess my first piece of advice
to John here is just to not overreact.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, you're going one hundred percent in on zoom Stock
didn't pan out either, did it, Joel thinking that, uh
what no one means you and Kathy would No. It's
not that I think that the US dollar is going
to be the world's reserve currency for forever. But there's
also not a clear there's not a better alternative rising
up to take its place. And so John, I mean,
you could certainly invest a portion of your portfolio in
(43:50):
gold but then that raises other questions like, uh, what
does that look like? Do you buy a gold fund,
do you buy gold bullion, do you buy a physical
gold And if things really do hit the fan, like
a civil war, do you think that a gold fund
or even gold bars would make you and your family
more secure personally? Even though I find myself getting pulled
(44:11):
more and more in the direction of being able to
like live off of the grid, I am not some
like doomsday prepper. I do not have what do you
call it, like a reseller, a bunker lined with leads
for like nuclear filoup or anything like that. But like
honestly stocking up on food and living a more sustainable lifestyle,
they probably are better ways to prepare for whatever might
(44:31):
end up happening off in the future, even if you
are assuming the worst, even if you are taking a
more pessimistic sort of point of view.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
It's interesting that people always turn towards like gold is
going to protect me. But then when you talk about
their fears, like the actual solution to their fears is
probably better planning and changing their lifestyle a little bit
so that they can be more self sustaining instead of
like just having a slightly slightly more of their investments
targeted towards a gold rock. And I think ultimately, when
(44:59):
it comes down to you and I'm Matt, we would
be we'd be fine with people having gold precious metals
allocation of roughly five percent of their portfolio, sure, preferably
through a low cost fund like gld's. That's a good
one if you're so inclined. And gold actually has done
really well over the past two decades, but we just
don't feel the need to have it ourselves, although we
(45:19):
understand why you do and why some people do, and
we don't want to minimize those feelings either.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So it's done well over the past twenty years, but
it hasn't done well over the past forty years. Like
you look at the past, ye keeps dooming out and
you're like, oh, I guess we're back to where we
were when Joel Mett were born.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
That's right, And this was true leading up to the election.
This is true post election. Do not let your political
feelings run the investing ship that you're steering. And maybe
read some US history too, like there have been so
many other times of extreme turbulence in our nation, and
there have been so many unforeseen black swan events, and
it's often the things that we are pointing to as
(45:55):
that's the thing that we're really nervous about. Something else
comes out of the woodwork, and it's far scared uh
and is far more determined of our future than the
thing that seems most clear in the moment.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
So it's true, and maybe maybe consider bitcoin instead and.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Humans, Matt, Humans, we just live in a perpetual state
of chaos to a certain degree. And it's really easy.
It's it's always easy to identify that the massive threats
to our financial security and to our lives. But what's
far more difficult, I think to see is the eternal
march of human progress and the ways that we have
all been able to benefit from that just as human beings,
but also from a financial perspective. And so I would
(46:31):
maybe refocus on that. And that's the reason why we invest,
is because we're investing in companies who are doing good
for us and for humanity, and we all stand a
profit from investing in those companies.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
That certainly takes more of an abundance mindset, Joel, which
is evidently the new theme for next year. The Ezra
Klan book and everything else. That's I'm down with that.
But let's get back to the beer that you and
I enjoyed during this episode. Oat Mill Raisin Cookie Quad.
This is a quad, a Belgian quad aged in rye
whiskey barrels with cinnamon and rare by Monday Night Brewing.
(47:02):
What were your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Monday Night never lets me down this.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I just went to smell it and I put the
cat back on.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
The des like a nerd.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
I'm an idiot.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
This so to me, this one tasted actually sweeter than
I thought it was. It almost tasted like it was
aged in rum barrels, because rum barrels add a lot
of sweetness to barrel aged beers. This had I thought.
The cinnamon came through nicely, absolutely delish.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I love this beer. Interesting that you mentioned rum barrels
because I felt like, like right off the bat, like
right out of the gate, that rye flavor is the
first thing I noticed. And then once it warms up
in your mouth a little bit, you taste some of
that some of those raisins, some of that cinnamon spice
makes you think of like a snicker doodle mixed with
a oatmeal raisin cookie, which oatmeal Raisin. I know you
don't like, but I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I love snickerdoodles though the indiotis the season.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
You gotta check out the girls and made a batch
of snickerdoodles yesterday. Oh that included They were someone inviting
myself over tonight. They were short on something and instead
included coconut as a substitute. They turned out amazing nice.
I forget what it was that they substituted, but it
was quite delicious and hopefully we'll be able to save
one or two for you. Please do. We're entering that
(48:10):
like Christmas cookie baking season, aren't we most But that's
gonna be it for this episode. You can find show
notes up on the websites. There you will see some
of the different resources that we mentioned.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Head over, including those savings challenges.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
That's right. Head over to wherever it is that you're
listening to this podcast. Actually leave us a solid review.
It always helps others to find the show to enable
them to start making better financial decisions with their own
money and think about like an early Christmas present for
the two of us. Oh, I'll take it, but that's
gonna be it for this episode, Buddy. Until next time,
best friends out, best friends out
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel, I am Matt,
and today we're answering your listener questions.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, abuddy, it is Monday, and I am excited
to hear from multiple how to Money listeners. Today. We've
got a listener who is interested in shifting his investments
towards gold. He's looking to diversify. But is he doing
it for the right reasons? And is this something we'd recommend.
We'll get to that one. Another listener is looking to
avoid a potential student loan repayment scam, so we'll cover
(00:46):
the details there. And someone else is unimpressed with some
of the returns that he's gotten from his robo advisor.
Is it the fault of the algorithm? Is he to blame?
Or maybe there's something else going on, Joel that we
can get to as we answer his question.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Do you feel like a private eye when it comes
to that question? Like the Sherlock Holmes trying to uncover
this mystery?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Do you think you'd make a good private investigator? Now?
I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
My attention to detail is lacking. Like you would be
great at that. You would be a good gum shoe.
You'd be like seeing the details.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I would like to think I would be I don't
know if I actually.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Of a footprint, and you'd be like, he wandered off
that way.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There's a It's funny because there's a dive bar near
where we live and I didn't even notice this, but
there's a private eye that's evidently above that that bar
that the lady our wives brought to my attention. I'm like, wait,
what are you talking about. They're like, have you never
seen the sign? And they specialize in relational investigation. They're
totally like having us followed. I hope you know. It
(01:41):
seems like that. It's the kind of private eye that
keeps an eye on the other partner, that kind of thing.
And I was like, wait a minute, it's like that show.
Why is this? Is this something you're considering? What's going
on here? I felt like I was missing a big
part of the story. Yeah, I got nothing to hide. Yeah,
bring it on.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, all right, real quick, before we get into the
list of our questions, I just wanted to mention Jonathan Clements,
who you start for the Wall Street Journal, has a
website called The Humble Dollar. He's such a fantastic dude.
He's been detailing recently on the Humble Dollar, his bout
with cancers, diagnosis with cancer, and the fact that he
doesn't have much longer to live, and I just like
(02:16):
really appreciate, by the way, like how honest and forthcoming
he's been with the struggle that is, and and just
kind of the all the money stuff that goes along
with it too. Not on that note, though, he had
an article on his website about how people should track
allow their insurance companies to track their driving because they
can save big dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
He's still focusing on the thing that he loves, which
is personal finance and investing, so sometimes he covers that
overlap even in the midst of it all.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and then sometimes it's like just random money saving
articles still and yeah, I know, I think last time
we talked about this, we got a lot of pushback
and people were saying, like, I don't want that in
invasion of privacy in my life, dude. But like the
truth is, you can potentially save quite a bit of money.
Typically when you have your driving tracked by your insurance company,
you don't stand to lose anything. You can only save money,
(03:04):
supposedly based on what they tell you. And I think
if you drive cautiously not.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
You might end up being part of the class actual
loss where you'll get paid seventy seven dollars and ten years.
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's a good point. But I do think like, if
you drive relatively reasonably well, you should consider it, just
especially with what's happening with insurance traits these days.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
On a related note, having kids also makes you drive
more carefully, Joe. I don't know if you've noticed this,
but do your kids yell at other drivers or like
if we're if you're waiting in line and the light
turns green, are they're like, go buddy, the like's greed.
They start saying that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
No, they like to mess with pedestrians sometimes, like just
yell at them randomly out the window, which is terrible.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I tell them this, stop. They're a nuisance. They are
those kids. They're those kids. They like throwing like empty
as you drive by. No, they don't do that, but
it came on beer kids. It's half enjoyed. Capri Son's right.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
No, they think they're funny. They think they're funny, and
they make try to make funny comments as we're driving
by and I'm like they don't think that's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
They you just scared. You need you need to stop that. Yeah, well,
well maybe I am confessing what it is that I say,
because our kids learn from us, you know, like there
are little sponges. And I've known this forever, but I'm
realizing that more and more they're learning how to drive
based on how I drive, and it's causing me, like truly,
to drive more carefully when they're in the vehicle, which
should probably be the case anyway, but typically you're just
(04:19):
trying to get from point A to point B, but
paying more attention to the speed limit, not trying to
eke in under that light that's turning yellow from yellow
to red. I guess I'm pointing out additional accountability that's
taking place by having kids in the car, maybe not
unlike having your driving monitored. Buy an insurance company. So
if you don't have.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
A kid, steal a nephew or a niece or something
like that, let them ride along with you. Either that
or put in one of these I don't know, monitoring systems.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Right, Joel loves it when the Amberillers go out to
everybody after he's stolen his nephew he's fine, he's with me.
Do you remember what it was like coming home from
the hospital for the first time with your first baby? Yeah,
how carefully you're driving. It's so funny how things just
change and you have a couple of kids and you
don't think about it as much. But like, I've never
driven so carefully and sell on eggshells and so like,
(05:05):
right at the speed limit in the far right lane
on the interstate, making sure that I was doing everything
I can to not get hit. But I think having
more of that mentality because not only will it help
when it comes to insurance, I guess, but also just
the wear and tear on your vehicle, man, Like, Like
when you are accelerating less aggressively, when you're breaking less aggressively,
your tires are going to be in better shape, your
brakes are going to be in better shape. You're gonna
(05:26):
get better gas mileage. Yeah, just better overall maintenance on
the vehicle.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, just a little PSA. All right, that's basically the
beer we're having on today's episode, Matt. It's oatmeal raisin
cookie quad, which sounds decadent. So I'm excited to have
this one. Is this is so good today on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You've already enjoyed a couple of SIPs.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, we'll give our thoughts so good in our review
at the end of the episode. But if you have
a money question we'd love to hear from you. Just
record your question on the voicemail map of your phone.
Send it our way if you want the details, just
got to have to money dot com slash ask and
if we get your question in before the end of
the year, we'll send you some how to money socks.
The more interesting your question, the more likely we are
(06:03):
to take it. So submit your interesting money questions. That
is true, Yeah, and hopefully we'll get you on the
next episode. Matt, let's get to a question from a
young adult actually has a chunk of change at her
disposal that didn't come from her.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Hi, Matt Ajoel, my name is Laura. I'm from Saint Louis, Missouri.
I've been listening to the podcast for just about a
year now. I really like the show and you guys
have been a huge help on my financial journey so far.
So I have a question about UTMA accounts. I am
an adult. I am twenty eight, but I have an
(06:37):
UTMA that was set up for me by my grandparents,
and I know several other people who are in a
similar situation. And my general question is, once you're an adult,
what should you be doing with this account? I've been
leaving the money there and making withdrawals occasionally for purchases
regarding college.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I know other.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
People who used it in part to pay for or wedding.
But I would love some advice on what I should
actually be doing with the money and if it needs
to come out of that account and go into something else.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
All right, Laura, I will say you've got some cool
grand Did she say her grandparents left you that money?
Not only does she have cool grandparents, but her friends
have cool grandparents as well, Because she said, she sounds
like she knows a few folks.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
She's running in circles with fellow UTMA inheritors.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I need a I don't know. It must be
in the water there and where was it in Missouri?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Missouri?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I don't think I know. At least nobody that I
know has told me that they inherited a Nutma. I
certainly didn't.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
There's lots of things I don't tell you. Yeah, I
know you know your secret. No, ugma on over here
in my account's lineup?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Should we just mention I think sometimes people gloss over
that term utma ugma. They're these specific accounts that where
people can save ahead for a minor save and invest ahead,
save and invest ahead, and then when the miner reaches
the age of maturity, they basically inherit that money they
can do whatever they want with it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Sure, but Laura, I love that you've been disciplined with
the funds that you have on hand there, Like you
didn't go buy a fancy new car or something like that.
I am sure that there are other folks out there
in the world in your situation who would have been
tempted into that direction. But you know, I would say,
depending on how much money we're talking about here, and
what your goals are, what your financial I was gonna
(08:20):
say financial goals, but like it's not financial. We're talking
about goals that you are going to potentially fund with
this money that's could have a significant impact on your future.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, And I kind of just kind of out briefly
outlined what utmos are and ugmas and Uniform Transfer to
Miners Act, Uniform Gift to Miners Act is like what.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It stands for.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
And we're usually talking about this from the other side
of the equation, right, we're talking to parents or grandparents
who are looking to help the next generation, and they're saying, Hey,
Matt and Joel, should we put money into one of
these accounts for a baby or a little kiddo who
we love and we want them to set them up
for future financial success. And that is and that is
a question that is worth discussing. But Laura is the
(09:00):
next generation, right, she is the inheritor, the person who
has received the good fortune of somebody else's smart and
intelligence and kind moves. And just to reiterate, by the way,
depending on the state that folks live in, the UPMA
account goes fully into the hands of the beneficiary at
age eighteen or twenty one, and in some states age
twenty five. So depending on your state specific laws, it
(09:22):
depends when you're going to get the money. Laura's twenty eight,
so she's had access to the money for a little
bit of time. So to have only spent the money
for education and to have most of those funds intact
at age twenty eight is quite a feat and it
means that her grandparents' trust was well placed. You've likely
seen that account balance grow depending on how it's invested
(09:43):
as well, Laura, which is awesome. So you've just seen
that kind of continue to amass and it's like a
snowball rolling downhill and you're like, wait a second, way
more money than when I first inherited this thing, which
is a good problem to have. But now let's talk
about what do you do with the money. We don't
necessarily want you to spend it, but you also might
not want to leave it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Bet you could spend it, would just spend it in
the right way. Yeah, I will say you'll have a
capital gains tax bill on hand when you start to
pull those dollars out. It's not the end of the world,
just something to be aware of. But just start outlining
some of these different upcoming goals that you have that
might be expensive. Do you have a home, Well, if not,
do you want one? Because using this money as a
(10:22):
down payment could be a fantastic use for it. Maybe. So,
I think she said she's twenty eight, Maybe she's been
out of school for a little bit, but maybe she
wants to go back to school, grad school. Perhaps I
think this money could be very helpful in that way
as well. Even she mentioned like some friends using enough
to pay for a wedding. I think that's in another
reasonable use case. But the first use of these funds
(10:44):
would be to use them to pay for some of
these bigger goals in life that you would otherwise hopefully
not but a lot of folks are resorted to debt
in order to accomplish these goals. So I would find
a way to avoid some of these. I don't want
to say the worst forms of debt, but if you're
a able to not have to pay any financing on
some of these goals that you do want to achieve,
(11:05):
that that's where my head goes first.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, if you can eliminate the need for debt for
just a bigger personal goal like that, or reduce your
need for debt, like let's say, in the event of
a home purchase like you alluded to, Matt, maybe Hey,
this allows you to put twenty or twenty five percent
down instead of putting five percent down. That's pretty cool, right,
because that'll reduce your monthly mortgage payment, that'll eliminate PMI like,
(11:28):
it's a really smart financial move to use. I think
up of funds for a bigger thing like that. If
you're so inclined and you know you're in the phase
of life where this money I think could help you
do something really smart for your financial future. Have you
thought about house hacking or becoming a real estate investor?
And I think you know, house hacking is one of
those things that Laura could do. Use this as down
payment money and then also at the same time potentially
(11:48):
minimize her housing costs. I think the nudge here is
to encourage you not to just think about expensive purchases,
but to think about making moves that are going to
benefit you over the long haul, like in the years
and decade to come. Matt, you mentioned grad school, like
that could be a thing too, right, increasing her future
earnings if that's of interest to her. Also, I mean,
if she's inclined towards owning and managing real estate, this
(12:11):
could really be the seed money to pull that off.
Like you'd be taking money from an investment account, money
that's already kind of essentially working for to build up
wealth through your future, and you'd be using them to
buy income producing assets that go up in value over time.
It's not for everyone investing in real estate, but I
think it is, especially if you're going in the house
(12:32):
hacking direction, it can be one of the one of
the best financial levers that you can pull. So I
think it's just worth putting that on your radar as
something that might make sense.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
For the use of some of this money.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Sure, yeah, depending on how much there is, Like, we
don't know how much there is.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Either that is true. I think she's also wondering whether
or not she should take this money out of this
account and put it into a different account. And so
I'm not sure if you are currently able to fully
fund a roth ira or not. My guess is that
you are working since you are twenty eight years old,
and if you have enough earned income, which is highly likely,
but maybe you just don't have enough extra free cash
on hand in order to max out that roth ira. Right,
(13:07):
we're talking about seven thousand dollars every single year. Well,
pulling a bit from your UTMA each year to ensure
that you get as much money in that roth ira
as possible. I think that is a smart move. Yes, indeed,
you are paying a little bit of tax now, but
maxing out your roth IRA every year is going to
shelter you from future tax bombs down the road, and
(13:27):
I would be interested in doing that, especially too, you
didn't say who you have the UTMO with, and so
I would be paying close attention to any potential fees
that are associated with that account or the investments. Maybe
it's not the brokerage that you're with. Let's say they
charge zero zero dollars for an annual fee, Well, what
kind of funds are you invested? Like, what are the
expense ratios there on those funds? Because it could vary
(13:49):
wildly depending on the brokerage, and especially if this was
something that was set up like years and even decades ago.
There's a chance. Man, it makes me think of I
had a buddy and he started investing in American fund
which I'm sure there are some great American funds out there,
but I remember at the time they had some massive
fees associated with them, like no joke, in the two
to three percent range, not like zero point two percent,
(14:11):
point three percent, literally two to three percent. And so
if I robbery right there, if that was the case,
then I would be in more of a hurry to
get my funds out of this UTMA. But otherwise, I mean,
if it's a low cost provider, and it's widely diversified.
There's not necessarily any rush to get those funds out
of that UTMA.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So and I think you're pointing something out here too, Matt. Yeah,
look at the investment fees, but also look at the investments, right,
because what did your grandparents, What sort of funds did
they put your investments in. Maybe they're not high expense ratios,
but maybe they're too conservative, right, So you might want
to have more a higher stock allocation in your investments
inside of the UTMA.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And that's something worth looking at as well. So, Laura,
when it comes down to it, I'd be thinking about
this money as allowing you to make bigger financial moves
that you'd otherwise have to delay or push further down
the road.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And she's got that seed money, which I'm sure honestly
is exactly what her great parents intended for it to be.
The other thing we didn't even really talk about was well,
maybe you want to launch a business or something like that,
and this could be seed money for that. I mean,
there's all sorts of things where it can feel like
you don't have the runway, but this is like added
support to allow you to really go in a whole
bunch of different directions. I was just thinking about it
as extra jet fuel though, propelling you towards the future
(15:18):
that you want, not as money for consumption in the
near term, and also helping to fuel bigger financial goals
like home ownership, not as kind of money for pittoy
spending here and there, right, that you could pull off.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
In the near term. And maybe just a portion of
this money, because I just said, don't spend it on
pilly stuff, maybe a portion of it does make sense
for fun stuff, right, maybe five to ten percent of it.
This is the time of her life where probably her
friends are going to be getting married. Maybe there's destination weddings,
maybe she's got to be a bridesmaid in a wedding
or something like that. And it's easy to say I
can't afford that, I'm not going to do that, and
(15:54):
you miss out on some kind of good times because
of that, maybe being overly frugal. And so I would say, well,
let's take a portion of this, and whether it's a
trip with friends, whether it's whatever else, something else is
going to bring you joy. Consider taking some of those
up funds and getting at least a little bit of
pleasure out of the ability to use them right now,
in the here and now, or in the next.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Year or two.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I think having a plan is wise been optimizing every
single dollar would likely be a bummer.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Two.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I really like the idea of using
it for like these one off things that you would say,
well that I can't fit that into my budget. Like
I like the idea of having something that feels more
aggressive and a conservative budget. But then if you have
like these sort of one off things that kind of
fall into your life that normally you would say no
to because it's that sort of outside of the bounds
of how it is that you want to live. But
then you're able to say, well, I got the Utler money.
This is maybe more of a once a year, special
(16:41):
occasion sort of thing that I'm tapping it for. And
I think that would would allow you to, in fact
have I don't know, like an increased aptitude or like
a widened aperture of what life could look like for
you without totally subscribing to doing something like this every
single year. He's like best of both worlds. Yeah, right,
you're locking yourself in being disciplined with your money, but like, oh,
(17:02):
there's the occasional splurs here in there.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I mean kind of like we talk about with investing,
where yeah, five percent of it can be used on
single stocks and crypto and stuff like that. We'll do
the same with this five percent when it comes to
your spending, and then do the smart long term stuff
with the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
But Joe, we got more to get to, including whether
or not robots are better investors than we are. We'll
get to that more right after this.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
All right, Matt, we're back.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We've got a question about one of my least favorite things,
student loans.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Gentlemen, my name is Zach. I am in Bend, Oregon.
My student loans were through a company called Naviant, and
recently I've been getting emails, phone calls, and texts from
a company called Mohela telling me that I'm six months
delinquent and that I needed to pay right away or
(17:57):
certain things were going to happen financially against me. So
I called this mohalah Ela to discuss the Navviant loans
that apparently went delinquent somehow even though I had auto
pay turned on. And Mohala said, well, give us fifty
dollars right now over the phone, and we can push
(18:20):
your forbearants back until January when we would start to
continue the monthly payment of about one hundred and thirty bucks. Anyway, emails,
phone calls, tech started doubling, threatens, harassment, all that started doubling.
Now I'm questioning, is this Mohala company legit and in general,
(18:43):
what is the best way to pay off student loans
without dealing with these reselling of loans or harassment with
collection companies or auto pays or anything in that nature.
If you have any advice, I had a preciate it. Hey,
thanks guys, best friends out.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Oh Matt, what's better? What's better than text messages for
people who are trying to like rip money out of
your life?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Text for people who are saying, hey, I've got money
for you, just send us your all your personal information.
That I would say maybe equally as dangerous. But Zach,
first off, here, man, these tactics that are being used
sound ridiculous. They sound quite untowed. It appears that your
loan has been transferred to Mohila, which is another student
loan servicer.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, he was basically asking about their legitimacy. The they're
a legit company.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and I think it stands so it's the MO
part stands for Missouri, but it's the HILA is the
I think Higher Education Loan Authority or something something like that.
But they are they are a legit company. They are
not necessarily a good company. All of the Internet. They
seem to agree that their customer service is one of
the worst. And the reason that you're your loan is
(19:52):
no longer with Naviant, the company who you originally went with,
is because they are barred from servicing federal student loans.
Moving forward, everyone's doing stuff. Everyone's doing a great.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Job here student loan space full of great people doing
great stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Were they're treating borrowers so horribly, steering them into inappropriate
products that cost more and actually harmed recent grads credit scores.
The student loan space is a complete mess, and unfortunately
I don't necessarily seeing it getting cleaned up anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
So was Naviant like the en Run of student loans
and mohilas like the Comcast of student loans. I don't know,
it's really hard to kind of peg them to other
companies that really really suck that people tend to hate.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But then Comcast pivoted and it's Exfinity. Yeah right, it's
not Infinity sucks. It was Comcast.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
It was a different company to give themselves a new
name because everyone hated them so much, and then people
are like rebranded. Well, the Accunity person showed up my door.
They seem nice, and it's like, well, yeah, it's lipstick
on a pig here. Well, and that's I think sometimes
what is happening with these student loan providers, right, Student
Loan Planner, which is we've had people on from their
company before Matt. They're awesome folks. They had an article
(20:59):
about just how the major student loan service providers are
and they rank them in order of which ones are
the worst, and they're all kind of mostly not great,
but Mohila tops the list as being the worst. And
if they're harassing you, which it sounds like they are,
I would report them to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
the CFPB, which you can go to their website consumer
(21:20):
finance dot gov or maybe both. I would file a
complaint with your state's attorney general as well, just letting
them know, hey, this company is harassing me. They're doing
some ridiculous things. They're making some absurd asks that's not okay,
right what they're doing and how they're talking to you
and the ways they're communicating with you. So now let's
talk about maybe how you move forward with these jerks
(21:42):
at Mohila And basically, well, you're not as delayed in
your payment as they're making it sound from everything we
know about student loans and what's happening with student loan
payments right now, because even after student loan payments started
again last year, there was a mandatory on ramp period,
which means you couldn't be penalized for not paying through
(22:03):
the end of September. And also what planned you're on
determines whether or not you even need to start paying
right now exactly. So if you're on the Safe plan,
which we don't know you didn't mention it in your question,
you're still technically in forbearance for the time being and
you will likely continue to be for some months to come.
If you didn't sign up for Safe, you might need
to start paying, but still it's not like you're like
(22:23):
six months behind or something like that. Mohela might want
to make it sound like that, but that's not actually
the facts on the ground.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
They've just implemented some aggressive collections practices here, but not
paying that would still cause interest to accrue. But you
were able to avoid late fees, collections efforts, and negative
hits to your credit score for that one year period.
But after the end of that arm phase that Joe's
talking about there, all those other realities are back in
play unless you are in save. If not, it is
(22:51):
important to get current on your payment and to do
so quickly in order to avoid those repercussions. You asked
as well about avoiding getting migrated to a different servicer
on your student loans, right, and just how much of
a big of a pain in the butt this is.
I wish I had better news here, but sadly, there's
no way to avoid that. It's just one of the many.
It's the modern financial system that we currently are living in,
(23:13):
like the same with like your mortgage payment exactly like
you don't have. You might refinance or might take out
a mortgage with a certain bank, and they might sell
it two months down the road, six months down the road,
and you get the paperwork and you have to figure
out a whole new back end system and get that
stuff set up. It's annoying, but it's also just kind
of part of the reality, like you said, Matt, of
the modern financial system. So it's an indignity you have
to put up with. And I'm not sure, Zach, what
(23:34):
your overall financial situation looks like and how big of
a financial burden your student loans are for you. And
student loans, by the way, are incredibly difficult to get
out of. They stick to you like glue. They're one
of these things where you take them out. And basically
on almost every other financial product, there are ways to
cut the strings. With student loans, there almost aren't. But
(23:55):
if your payment is something you truly can't afford, it
is possible to have them just discharge partially or fully
in bankruptcy if you can prove something known as undue hardship.
And this isn't a step to take lightly, and there's
no guarantee that when you claim undue hardship that you're
going to be able to prove it. The standard is
(24:16):
quite high. But I'm just wanting to mention it because
it is something that more people have been able to do,
even though it's still a really difficult hurdle to jump over. Sure, Yeah,
and as we're looking ahead. The truth is everyone with
student loans might have a tougher time. Like we don't
know exactly how the next administration are going to approach
student loans, but it's certainly not going to be as
(24:38):
dubvish and kind as the Biden administration has been. I'm
sure we'll be talking about it pretty regularly here on
the show throughout all of next year twenty twenty five.
And so it's just best to start planning for the
potential elimination of favorable income based repayment programs like Save
and the likelihood of higher payments going forward, and just
as future students are starting to play I think these
(25:00):
less general student loan payment options and plans it makes
it even more important for folks as they're considering they're
borrowing load, right like the debt that they're looking to
take on. One other things you wanted to mention, Zach
talked about making these payments over the phone, which makes
me nervous as well, like I don't like getting phone
calls from people that I don't necessarily know and then
giving them money, sort of like you're talking about all
(25:20):
as far as receiving text from folks if it was me,
I would not be paying a single dollar over the phone. A.
I don't like answering the phone. B. I would rather
do it by like via the Mohilo or Mohila whatever,
the online portal where you've got a paper trail. The
ability to see payments in that way when they come
and say, hey, you receive this payment, you have a screenshot,
(25:41):
you have a confirmation number. Instead.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If I talked to Susie over the phone and she
said I was just said.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it was gonna get applied to my account. Just
the ability to get in there and do that to
make sure you're doing everything on the up and up,
and while you're in there too. I don't know if
click over and check out your profile and see if
they have your phone number there, because I think maybe
even just attempting to remove that from your profile might
allow them to not be able to reach out to
you so directly. Because what they're doing here is they're
(26:08):
trying to get people to pay more than they need to,
right Like what if there's somebody who is on the
safe plan and they've only got it like a couple
more years, but they're getting so inundated with messages emails, calls,
text messages that they're like, you know what, it's only
three thousand dollars. I've got four thousand dollars sitting right
now in my same mus account. Let me just let
me just pay it off and then whatever it takes,
then I don't have to worry about it at all
(26:29):
because you're just so fed up with it. But that's
not the emotional state or point that we want to
get you. That's where they want to get you to
where they're getting paid as opposed to just having that,
you know, having that forgiven if you're within the Safe
Program or something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And again, safe program might be on on the rails
and it might not last. Not even you mentioned the
next administration map that might be part of it, but
it could just also be court rulings right that undo
the Safe Plan because it wasn't properly implemented. The reality
for student loan borrowers is going to shift in the
coming months. We'll continue to talk about this, but Zach,
hopefully for you this hew and you need to stick
(27:01):
up for yourself with Mohila. It's really tough because they're
like a ten thousand pound gorilla that wants to push
you around, and you got to push back. All right, man,
Let's get to a question about robo advising for medium
term savings goals.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Hey, Matt Joel, this is Dan from New York City.
I've been listening to the podcast for several years and
appreciate all you guys. Do I have a question for you.
I have some money in a betterment account that's set
aside to be used just a couple of years from now,
would be part of a home purchase. It's on auto
adjust and they keep reallocating more into bonds, currently thirty
(27:34):
four sixty six stocks to bonds. It hasn't got a
great return. It's gotten about eight percent total return since
March twenty twenty, and so I'm wondering if I'd be
better off just moving into a savings account instead. Part
of me has felt that I should just trust the
process and that maybe most of the games would come
as time goes on it gets closer to the target date,
(27:56):
but it just seems like a very low return and
I'm not really sure if that's actually going to happen.
So just wondering what the best thing for the money
in this account would be from this point forward.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thanks ooh Joe. Eight percent since twenty twenty. I'm pretty
sure what he's saying there is eight percent total, so
he's we're looking at an average of two percent a year.
Not the kind of position that I would want to
find myself in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And not the position, to be honest and not to
rub salt in the woundstand that many people find themselves
and given kind of what's happened even with just basic
saving straight so this that's really tough to.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Endure, that is true. Let's address Betterment first. As far
as we can tell, it's the best one out there
on the market in our opinion, and they've sort of
changed the game right like they have given DIY investors
a middle of the road choice that isn't either just
like a low cost brokerage firm like one of our
favorites like Fidelity or Vanguard, where you are completely on
your own, You're you're flying solo. That's one option, but
(28:51):
then the other option is, okay, I got to hire
a fully fledged financial advisor. Well, Betterment is offering that
sort of middle of the road path, offer fairly reasonable
price and with other and whistles that can help you
to stay the course. When it comes to your investing.
And actually it was a couple of weeks ago we
talked with Dan Egan, who is over there at Betterment.
He's a behavioral psychologist on the team. We'd recommend for
(29:12):
folks to listen to that episode if you missed it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, it gives you kind of some inside baseball onto
how Betterment system is run and how it's kind of
set up to help people make better decisions with their investments.
And Dan, these medium term money goal questions are often
the hardest to tackle, right. We've talked about those regularly
on the show. Depending on what your timeline is and
what your risk tolerance is, it can be really hard
to figure out exactly what you should be doing if
(29:36):
you have a money goal that's two, three, four or
five years down the road, and you are, of course
disappointed with your returns because the stock market has been
crushing it and you've had your money in more conservative
investment choices and the returns have been even below that
of a savings account these days, although Matt I think
what savings rates ticked up in twenty twenty two significantly,
(29:57):
back in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, they were still
pretty paltry, And I totally get that you'll be bummed
out by that, but I also have to have to
say that that's the nature of target date funds that
start out with a decent chunk of bond exposure and
bonds have not done so well over the past five years,
and then those accounts get adjusted to have more and
more bonds that closer you get to target the target date.
(30:19):
And when you look at the performance of total bond
dtfs like Vanguard's B and D, it's actually had a
negative return since March of twenty twenty, minus ten percent,
to be exact. So the more heavily it's not something
you could have predicted. This is one of those things
that happens, though, when you're investing in the stock market
and in the bond market, and the more heavily towards
bonds your portfolio has been allocated, Unfortunately, the worse it's
(30:42):
performed for you.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, and Dan said, should I just trust the process?
And this is an instance where we would say, well, no,
you don't actually want to trust the process. You trust
the process if you're invested in the stock market when
you've got rolling time rolling returns well and it's not
just about time. It's the fact that literally his portfolio
is literally changing to be more conservative, which means likely
that it's going to continue to underperform. Right, So as
(31:05):
you gain more bond exposure, you're looking for preservation of capital.
You're looking for most folks are looking for a more
stable portfolio, which means that you're not going to see
like a rebound. I guess Dan, on the returns that
you've seen so far, unfortunately, like you basically have seen
like the you've experienced the worst four year period when
(31:26):
it comes to bonds since like the Great Recession, and
that is just again that's the nature of investing in
the market. It's not necessarily guaranteed, but it is what
bonds seek to do, which is to provide stability to portfolios.
And I you know, it's tough to miss out on
a bowl market like this when you are looking at
the stock market, but hopefully you have experienced some of
those gains in other accounts like a four roh andin
(31:47):
k or within an IRA that you have.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I mean, maybe it's cold comfort, but those dollars are
designated for decades down the road, and they should be
invested mostly in the stock market, so you haven't completely
missed the glory. Is just this important portion of your
money for a down payment, but it's for a good reason, right,
Like what if the market. Let's say you're invested fully
in the stock market and the market were down thirty
percent this year instead of it being up well, your
(32:12):
goal of buying a home would likely need to be
punted much further down the road. Rather than not having
the most optimal returns, you possibly would have even lost money.
So that's important to keep in mind, because once you
know why you're making the decision, and you have a
good why for not investing those dollars fully in the market,
I think we would recommend for you to kind of
(32:33):
get zen with whatever results come your way, knowing that
you did the right thing. In this way, you have
sort of trusted the process. But I guess he's asking
what to do now, and there is an action that
he can take from this point moving forward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And I get why you would say the results didn't
pan out as well as I'd hoped, or as well
as I could have had I just been in like
a straight up savings account. But that doesn't mean that
you did the wrong thing, right. I think that's what
you're saying, Matt, is like you might have still you
still made the decision for the right reason, and it's
important to highlight that because you don't want to brace
yourself for this move when you really shouldn't. And so
(33:07):
he did the right thing at the time, knowing what
he knew exactly In hindsight, it's like, well, yeah, of
course I should have just stuck my money in savings accounts,
so then at least gotten that. But well, you know,
but savings account rate sucked when he was doing this
in twenty twenty two. So it's like, you can't beat
yourself up over this, and you can't cry over spilled milk.
So what do you do with that account?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Now?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
What do you do with the money in that account?
I would personally want those dollars in savings unless you're
willing to expand your timeline, like two years down the
road just really isn't that far at this point, and
it would be an absolute shame to expose yourself to
too much risk when you're getting closer and closer.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
To your goal.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And we've discussed this on the show before, but CDs
are the perfect vehicle for a home down payment. These days,
rates on high save these accounts. They are starting to fall,
although they're not terrible, and you can lock in a
CD rate that can protect you against further rate drops.
So I see that as like a solid happy medium. Yeh,
to kind of preserve this capital and grow it without
(34:01):
taking on undue risk and potentially underperforming that savings like
you're saving, to mind, underperformed the bond market in the
coming two years. But I think it's given the timeframe
that you have left until this really important purchase, that's
the route.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I would want to take. Yeah, and there are two
year CDs out there that are over four percent that
you can find. And I would say the more flexible
you are, the more risk on that you can choose
to be, Because if you decide that renting is not
all that bad, maybe you wouldn't mind staying put for
another four years or so if need be well. If so,
then you can choose to be more stock heavy. You
can invest more aggressively, even if you want to buy
(34:36):
in two years. But you've got no problem kicking the
can down the road based on market conditions, right, Like
you don't have to decide now what it is that
you're going to do, you can decide in a couple
of years. If so, then investing a little more aggressively
in the market I think could be a good option.
It's not a great route for everyone to take, because
I think most folks aren't willing to have a more
sort of amorphous timeline. But if you are an optimizer
(34:58):
who doesn't mind being flexible, I think that could be
the best choice for you.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So, Dan, we hope that helps. We know that the
outcome over the past few years in this account hasn't
been what you hoped it would be, but we hope
you're able to continue growing those dollars over the next
couple of years and buy that house you want when
you're ready. We got more questions to get to on
this ask htm episode, including we'll talk about savings challenges
and unrest in the US and what that means for
(35:22):
your portfolio. We'll get to those questions right after this.
All right, Joe, we are back from the break.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Let's get to some more personal finance topics. It is
now time for the Facebook Question of the Week, which
is from Justin and he wrote, can anyone recommend a
savings challenge. I'm looking to participate in one or two,
but I am interested in those that offer savings advice
and ways to minimize spending. A Google search showed an
overwhelming number of them, so I wasn't sure where to start.
(35:54):
Any that you would recommend, Joel, you personally, what would
you recommend?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
That's a good question, Matt, and I think people feel.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Do you like savings challenges at all? Like, what's the
what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Do like savings challenge? I feel like last time we
talked about this, we got some flak from some listeners
and they're like, it's just moving deck chairs around on
the Titanic or something. That was kind of the general
response for people your.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Personal finances are going down, don't even try.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well, or it's just you're just shuffling dollars around, and
so a savings challenge isn't actually doing anything meaningful for you.
But I disagree. I totally disagree. Some people find them gimmicky,
and I do think past a certain point in your
financial journey they become unnecessary. But for a whole lot
of folks who aren't inherently frugal or on the front
end of the money gears. Money challenges can make a
(36:38):
real difference I think in your mindset kind of in
how you just approach your personal finances in general. They
can start to shift you towards greater levels of frugality
and just intentionality with your money. And it could also
actually make a difference in your trajectory towards building wealth too.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, you will literally hopefully see more in your savings,
but it can just provide a framework, I think for
folks when you are well just looking at your general
personal finances, like you've got a savings account or whatever,
and there's no there's no like guardrails, there's no parameters,
there's and you don't even know what goals to set
out for yourself. But having a savings challenge can give
you something very achievable that can I think provide some
(37:13):
movement for folks.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Especially especially if you're like I'm in the e fund phase,
whether it's in the very first money gear of establishing
that twenty four hundred and sixty seven dollars emergency fund,
or if you're in the money gear where you're trying
to mass that three to six months, Like if you're
just trying to stop file that cash. These savings challenges
can help like get you there quicker, absolutely, and.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
So we would recommend for you to head over to
our website. We actually have the few over there for
you to check out. But one that comes to mind
is the Paintry challenge. This is a food related challenge, right,
This is a way to try and cut your grocery
bill significantly over the course of a month.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Well, I thought you were going to say, this is
where you rent out your pantry on Airbnb for someone
to stan in.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, it's a form of extreme house house yeah right, No,
you literally just like empty your freezer, empty your pantry,
make do with what you've got on hand. Maybe only
head to the grocery store for like fresh veggies and milk,
but otherwise we are going to make meals based on
what we have on hand. But you can also challenge
yourself not to eat out for a full month, right,
Like you are packing your lunch, you're meal planning, you
(38:12):
are making bulk meals on Sundays. We've got friends who
do like the breakfast burritos and they freeze them. They
stick them in the freezer and then they take them
to work and they throw them in the microwave, that
kind of thing. But I think that's another challenge than
not eating out for a month challenge. That's another one
that can help you to cut down on that food
spending specifically.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, and those are the kind of things where normally
we just go with the flow and our food bill
remains elevated because we're not making significant changes, or maybe
we're just kind of like nibbling around the edges. And
the more extreme you can make it, the truth is
you'll realize, oh, wait, I've actually got a lot of
food randomly hanging out in my pantry or in my freezer.
That and I you know, it might not be the
(38:50):
most appetizing meal by like day twenty eight of the month,
but you're able to do it. You're able to pull
it off, and just to prove yourself that it can
be done, and to see how much money you might
be able to not funnel towards grocery stores there for
a hot minute, it can be pretty impressive. And yeah,
I think it could be confidence building when it comes
to your personal financial progress.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I think more than anything, that's what these challenges do.
They prove to yourself that in fact, can be done. Yeah,
but you have more control and agency of your life
than you thought otherwise.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I mean, we talk about the barebones budget sometimes, Matt,
and that's not like a money challenge per se. But
I think everyone should create a barebones budget, and that
is just to say, well, what if I did get unemployed,
what are the bear essentials I need to be spending
money on every single month? And it's like the roof
over the head, and it is the groceries on the table, right,
But then there it proves to you that there are
so many other things you actually could live without, and
(39:37):
maybe all of the fluff that actually is in outgoing
every month. And it's not that you want to eliminate
all those things from your life and just live a
monastic existence or something like that, but just by actually
doing the step of creating the bare bones budget, it
can be enlivening, I think, to realize that there are
a lot of changes you could make if you needed to,
and that you can make just because you want to.
(39:58):
If you want to make quicker progress, you could also
so I think challenge yourself to cut out all of
your recurring subscriptions for an entire month, and you might
end up leaving some of those subscriptions behind for good.
You can always, of course, go back to the ones
that you love and sign up again. You can say
I really miss Netflix or whatever it is and then
jump back, but I don't know for a whole month
to be like no streaming. What's this look like for
(40:18):
our family? And what's this look like for our budget?
There are other good ones on the list on our
website as well at how toomoney dot com. There's the
Seller Stuff Challenge or the wroth Ira challenge. And you know,
we like the selling stuff one because you're decluttering and
you're bringing money into your life, and then you can
use that money to fund the roth Ira that do
both at the same time. Maybe make the selling your
stuff thing be the funding the roth Ira challenge and
(40:41):
then yeah, I think while these challenges can act like
a financial stimulus of sorts, the goal is to keep
some of these habits up. But maybe with a little
more moderation than an extreme month long savings challenge would
encourage people to do.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
That's right, and again you can find this up on
the website at howdomoney dot com a list of those
different challenges. Joe, let's take another one from John. He wrote,
We're concerned about where the US is headed and might
see a lot of unrest or even a civil war,
which would possibly collapse the dollar. I'm considering investing ten
percent of our assets in gold as a hedge. What
are your thoughts? First off, what's your personal opinion on gold?
(41:18):
Did you see the movie Civil War by A twenty four?
I did not? Did you? Yeah? Not great? Didn't like
it and mad in love? I thought you normally like
A twenty four? So I do? I do?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
They make great movies? That one was not one of
their best? Was this one too prepper? Too prepper heavy
for you?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
No? I like prepper stuff even I can like dystopian.
Why no prepper genre? I know some real sci fi dystopian. Yeah,
I like that stuff too. It doesn't mean just because
you know what prepper doesn't mean you like watching prepper movies.
I don't like watching prepper TV shows. But yeah, okay,
But let's let's get to John's actual question here. And
I think politics has got a whole lot of people
(41:51):
on edge right now, Matt. I think that's to me,
what this question highlights is that there's this kind of
general reticence that people have about what's happening in our
our culture and what's happening in our political sphere. And
I know that John is not alone in feeling this way,
But he's also not alone in the context of human history,
which I think it's important to point out. It's not
that truly consequential things that alter our existence and our
(42:14):
future don't happen. Like we've all lived through COVID, a
that was a true life changing experience for a whole
lot of people, for almost everyone listening to the show.
But it's also hard to know in advance which events
are going to make a significant impact and what the
fallout is going to be, right, Like, I think in
twenty nineteen, a lot of us thought we knew what
(42:34):
the future was going to hold, and then as COVID
came about, there were a lot of predictions about what
the future was going to entail, like, Hey, this is
what COVID is going to change in our lives. Business
travel is dead. New York City never coming back. No
one's going to want to live there anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
On top of each other, because the pandemic has proved
that large cities and.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Most the point of living in a city when there's
no entertainment to be had, right, no Broadway.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Right, the millennials are moving to rural America, and this
is going to change the face of the country for
the Yeah, it didn't happen, right, even work from Home,
which was like lauded as this is going to change everything,
and it has in some respects, but in other ways we're.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Talking about where every single week there's another company yes,
or another government agency that yes, like oh, now we're
going we're gonna go back to four, if not five
days a week.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
So none of those things that we all thought were
going to be true indefinitely moving forward turned out to
be true. So I guess my first piece of advice
to John here is just to not overreact.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, you're going one hundred percent in on zoom Stock
didn't pan out either, did it, Joel thinking that, uh
what no one means you and Kathy would No. It's
not that I think that the US dollar is going
to be the world's reserve currency for forever. But there's
also not a clear there's not a better alternative rising
up to take its place. And so John, I mean,
you could certainly invest a portion of your portfolio in
(43:50):
gold but then that raises other questions like, uh, what
does that look like? Do you buy a gold fund,
do you buy gold bullion, do you buy a physical
gold And if things really do hit the fan, like
a civil war, do you think that a gold fund
or even gold bars would make you and your family
more secure personally? Even though I find myself getting pulled
(44:11):
more and more in the direction of being able to
like live off of the grid, I am not some
like doomsday prepper. I do not have what do you
call it, like a reseller, a bunker lined with leads
for like nuclear filoup or anything like that. But like
honestly stocking up on food and living a more sustainable lifestyle,
they probably are better ways to prepare for whatever might
(44:31):
end up happening off in the future, even if you
are assuming the worst, even if you are taking a
more pessimistic sort of point of view.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
It's interesting that people always turn towards like gold is
going to protect me. But then when you talk about
their fears, like the actual solution to their fears is
probably better planning and changing their lifestyle a little bit
so that they can be more self sustaining instead of
like just having a slightly slightly more of their investments
targeted towards a gold rock. And I think ultimately, when
(44:59):
it comes down to you and I'm Matt, we would
be we'd be fine with people having gold precious metals
allocation of roughly five percent of their portfolio, sure, preferably
through a low cost fund like gld's. That's a good
one if you're so inclined. And gold actually has done
really well over the past two decades, but we just
don't feel the need to have it ourselves, although we
(45:19):
understand why you do and why some people do, and
we don't want to minimize those feelings either.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So it's done well over the past twenty years, but
it hasn't done well over the past forty years. Like
you look at the past, ye keeps dooming out and
you're like, oh, I guess we're back to where we
were when Joel Mett were born.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
That's right, And this was true leading up to the election.
This is true post election. Do not let your political
feelings run the investing ship that you're steering. And maybe
read some US history too, like there have been so
many other times of extreme turbulence in our nation, and
there have been so many unforeseen black swan events, and
it's often the things that we are pointing to as
(45:55):
that's the thing that we're really nervous about. Something else
comes out of the woodwork, and it's far scared uh
and is far more determined of our future than the
thing that seems most clear in the moment.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
So it's true, and maybe maybe consider bitcoin instead and.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Humans, Matt, Humans, we just live in a perpetual state
of chaos to a certain degree. And it's really easy.
It's it's always easy to identify that the massive threats
to our financial security and to our lives. But what's
far more difficult, I think to see is the eternal
march of human progress and the ways that we have
all been able to benefit from that just as human beings,
but also from a financial perspective. And so I would
(46:31):
maybe refocus on that. And that's the reason why we invest,
is because we're investing in companies who are doing good
for us and for humanity, and we all stand a
profit from investing in those companies.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
That certainly takes more of an abundance mindset, Joel, which
is evidently the new theme for next year. The Ezra
Klan book and everything else. That's I'm down with that.
But let's get back to the beer that you and
I enjoyed during this episode. Oat Mill Raisin Cookie Quad.
This is a quad, a Belgian quad aged in rye
whiskey barrels with cinnamon and rare by Monday Night Brewing.
(47:02):
What were your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Monday Night never lets me down this.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I just went to smell it and I put the
cat back on.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
The des like a nerd.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
I'm an idiot.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
This so to me, this one tasted actually sweeter than
I thought it was. It almost tasted like it was
aged in rum barrels, because rum barrels add a lot
of sweetness to barrel aged beers. This had I thought.
The cinnamon came through nicely, absolutely delish.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I love this beer. Interesting that you mentioned rum barrels
because I felt like, like right off the bat, like
right out of the gate, that rye flavor is the
first thing I noticed. And then once it warms up
in your mouth a little bit, you taste some of
that some of those raisins, some of that cinnamon spice
makes you think of like a snicker doodle mixed with
a oatmeal raisin cookie, which oatmeal Raisin. I know you
don't like, but I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I love snickerdoodles though the indiotis the season.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
You gotta check out the girls and made a batch
of snickerdoodles yesterday. Oh that included They were someone inviting
myself over tonight. They were short on something and instead
included coconut as a substitute. They turned out amazing nice.
I forget what it was that they substituted, but it
was quite delicious and hopefully we'll be able to save
one or two for you. Please do. We're entering that
(48:10):
like Christmas cookie baking season, aren't we most But that's
gonna be it for this episode. You can find show
notes up on the websites. There you will see some
of the different resources that we mentioned.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Head over, including those savings challenges.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
That's right. Head over to wherever it is that you're
listening to this podcast. Actually leave us a solid review.
It always helps others to find the show to enable
them to start making better financial decisions with their own
money and think about like an early Christmas present for
the two of us. Oh, I'll take it, but that's
gonna be it for this episode, Buddy. Until next time,
best friends out, best friends out
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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