Time > Money w/ Ben Miller (Bestie Ep) #1082

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking about why time is greater than
money with Ben Miller. Actually, time it's easily our most

(00:30):
precious resource, but it's not often that we take the
time to figure out how it is that we're going
to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably
turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely
fail to do this like that is when you end
up as the proverbial careerist, right where you're looking back
at the wasted decades wishing that you would have done

(00:51):
something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he
actually did shake things up. He traded a position on
Wall Street with golden sacks for a fulfilling life out
there in Colorado. He chose meaning over money, and he's
actually on a quest to help others to discover what
a fulfilling life is for them with the software that

(01:12):
he's developed, Chronify. So we're gonna talk about that, and
you know, I'm excited for what I think will be
a wide ranging conversation all about personal finances, but specifically
with time at the center of pretty much everything that
we talk about today. So Ben Miller, thank you so
much for joining us today on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Here, Ben, We're excited for this combo and Matt and
I we you know, you know, we like craft beer
and everyone knows that at this point, no secret. But
we spend I think the current beer is just one
single can of beer and it costs like seven dollars
and fifty cents, which a lot of people would say,
that's that's crazy. I need a twelve is at the
accurate price tag right there? I think so?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, it lowers has seven dollars and twenty nine cents.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
It's not cheap. That's ridiculous, right, So we spend too much,
some would say on craft beer, but we're also being intentional.
We're saving investing for the future while we spend exordinantly
on something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that
for you? What's your craft beer equivalent? Hmm?

Speaker 2 (02:05):
My craft beer equivalent, I'd say, would definitely have to
be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself is a
huge door here. But those sometimes can go for like
a one hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it.
Hours of family fun.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Okay, which game? Because I think when I share this love, Yes,
we also are nerdy, our lovers of nerdy board games.
But when we go on our beach vacation every night,
every night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game game.
Carcassone Sellers of Catan, We're playing Puerto Rico Acquire acchoire
a big So what game.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
You guys know, the whole gamut? Then this is normally
people's eyes glaze over when I yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
They're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly? We're like, yeah, no, no,
we're not like leave that for the kids like in
the nineties, I'm riskus for children.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
We're talking about the big ones. Are you talking about Clue? No?

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Okay, so what game are you dropping one hundred, one
hundred plus dollars on?

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Especially bowl? Yeah, it's like Kickstar hard stuff. So ill
do these like you know, big kind of space opera
sort of games or whatever, And so it'll be you know,
sometimes one or two hundred bucks, and then you got
to wait a couple of years for them to actually
make it. But that's you know, my my wife and
I are idea of a great Saturday night is like
sitting down over the board game table and trying to

(03:17):
prove to each other who's smarter.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
So that's kind of who who is the most cutthroat?

Speaker 1 (03:23):
She let lets you sometimes, right, yeah. Once.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
It's funny you mentioned Carcassone, Like we almost lost our
relationship over that game, because I just we were playing.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Settlers that the folks are going after each other's throats for.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
We were we were like trading games, you know, kind
of evenly matched, and then she started just whipping me
on the regular, and I was like, what is going on?
And then I discovered she had the app on her
phone and so she was just getting all kinds of extracurriculum.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
She was honing, honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Okay, So final question relatable games. What what game are
you currently playing a whole lot.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Or with friends?

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been
a game called ark Nova. It's like a zoo building
game of all.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Oh, I'm running that down right now.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, you kind of whatever building closures and put animals
in them, and I love it. Got to catch them
all type.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
So nerdy, so dorky, but but I love it. The
last one we cracked open, uh for the first time
was Wingspan, which yes, yeah, were one of the prettiest
prettiest and you get to learn because you're learning about
these actual species of birds and the eggs and how
much they typically lay and where they nest, and I
mean it's yeah, that's right, Okay, before we completely lose

(04:40):
all of our listeners and we gotta start talking about
money and for for you personally, I mean, like you
said that you were pursuing what you would call conventional
success for most of your life, Like you had good grades,
the right school, big time job, but you found that
it wasn't fulfilling. So what did you find was missing
and specifically, like what it caused you to have like

(05:01):
a come to Jesus moment.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, it's a good question. I first of all, I
felt very strange and like almost ungrateful because I was
super super lucky to have that position, you know, to
be in that role. It was kind of like a
pinch me sort of job that I felt like a
lot of people would kill for. And so I was
I was wondering what's wrong with me? Like why can't
I appreciate this? But what really kind of made it
come to a head, was you know, I was watching people,

(05:26):
you know, either either retire or you know, move on.
And so I watched one guy in particular retire at
like forty five, and he was you know, minted, had
a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff,
and so most people look at him and go, man,
nice job, you know, you win the game. And I
was looking at him and going like, geez, I hope
that's not me. I hope by the time I'm forty five,

(05:46):
you know, I've done more than just this. And that
was kind of a shot across the bow for me
where I knew, you know, I'd known for a while
that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my
with my entire life, but that that really kind of,
you know, set thing in motion where I realized, like, Okay,
how do I not become this? You know, how do
I not become this person who's only done this? How

(06:06):
do I how do I make something and help people
by the time.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
I get there. M So your desire to go out there,
strike it on your own, start your own business, start chronify?
Was that more because you didn't think your Wall Street
job was doing good in the world and you wanted
to do good in the world. Or was it more
because you wanted more control of your time?

Speaker 3 (06:23):
Like?

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Was it? Was it both? How? Yeah? What was the
thought process there?

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, you're pointing out a little bit of circularity here.
I mean, because the very the very product that I'm
out there, you know, out there trying to trying to
put into the world now, is that is based on
the precursor to or it's based on the product that
I used to convince myself that it was time to
move on. And so the I would say, I would
say this, I realized early on that that I wasn't

(06:49):
doing something that I always wanted to do, or that
I that I wasn't going to want to do forever.
And with that, I realized, Okay, okay, well, I want
to make sure I don't get on this like slippery slope.
I want to make sure that I don't wind up,
you know, just one more year, one more year, one
more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm
fifty five, and I haven't, you know, gone out and
started a business, which is what I always wanted to do.
I developed an overweening interest in personal finance, throughout the

(07:14):
first you know, a few years that I was on
the job and it and it took a while for
it to kind of percolate. You know. I read a
book called Your Money or Your Life, and that kind
of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay,
now that I think of it in terms of time,
then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, the answers
just drop right out. And so for me, I remember
being literally at the Goldman gym, like working out, googling

(07:36):
like your Money or Your Life app and there was nothing,
and so I decided to That was kind of what
planted the seed for me that I should maybe try
and bills some.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Very cool so real quick.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Then, what age were you when you started having those
internal conversations where you were like, Okay, I don't want
to do the do the one more year thing. Do
you remember about when that was? Like how far along
into your career?

Speaker 1 (07:56):
I guess were you?

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (07:58):
I would say I first realized at two years into
my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine from
college and saying, like, dude, if I'm still doing this
at thirty two, grab me by the caller and make
sure that I justify myself because I can see where
this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's always there's
always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, well,

(08:18):
maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know,
one more year? One more year?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Well?

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away.
You've worked so hard for this for so long, and
you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful,
And maybe that desire to kind of, I don't know,
continue down the path that you've set out for yourself
and not blaze a new trail. I think that can
be cause a lot of people to stay put to
And I guess I'm curious too when we're talking about

(08:42):
the book your money or your life, the main life
changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about
their money in terms of life hours, Like, Yeah, what
was that like for you reading that book and how
did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your
thought process.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a
stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there,
there's so much data, especially now that it's just like
you can be drowning in too much information. It's like,
you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me,
what that book did was it kind of knocked things
into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really

(09:20):
distill everything down to one you know, kind of single
kernel of truth here. You know, here's how many years
you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay,
all these all these numbers that often make people's eyes
glaze over, you know, net worth expenses and stuff like that,
if you can distill it all down into one little
simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks. You know, people

(09:42):
can imagine what it's like to you know, relax for
seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank,
then that's what that says. And by the way, then
that factors in everything that it needs to factor in.
You know, if you're if your wealth goes up, great,
it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome,
that's also factored in. And so for me, it was
just the beautiful, full simplicity of not having to track
nineteen different things but being able to distill it all

(10:04):
down to one.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah, So is that what you would tell folks like
I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning
in right now and they're thinking, Man, I would love
to quit my day job. I would love to maybe
take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to
have a certain number of months or even years of
living expenses set aside? If I guess, a what position
were you in? And then what do you think folks

(10:26):
should maybe have in the bank before they kind of
start going out on their own to pursue something that
is a little more life giving.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, it's it's totally situational. You know. The conventional wisdom
for you know, what do you want to have is
called it like a whatever, a six month emergency fund
or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's
it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going
to get a business off the ground and fully running
in only six months, and so you know, you might
want to have a year or two at least set
aside that you can that you can, you know, really

(10:54):
get it going. But there's no there's no hard and
fast rule, and so much of it is due to
you know, if you're starting a business on the side
and you've got an income then that provides you more flexibility.
If you are a risk taker and you're willing to
eat Ramen for three years or whatever, then then great.
You know, Like for me, I had to kind of
oversolve because you know, I had two little kids. Now
I've got three, and we were going to move across

(11:16):
the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had
to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because,
you know, I started my business in twenty twenty, like
January of twenty twenty, and so I was planning on,
you know, working from home and living off savings for
a couple of years, and then all of a sudden,
you know, COVID and kind of a lot of people
had to do something pretty similar to that, you know,
work from home and in some cases live off of savings.

(11:38):
And so I was fortunate, but I'm I'm kind of
a risk averse guy by default orientation, and so I
felt like I kind of had to had to oversolve.
But different people, you know, different strokes for different folks.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, our understatement of the year, like giving a startup
off the ground isn't easy, right, and so like you're
you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle
of it still, and it can take a lot of
time too, right too, and especially when it when it's
kind of your fourth baby. Really you're like, oh, man,
like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts
for seeing this for seeing this thing succeed. So be

(12:09):
honest with us. Have you been able to strike the
balance you were looking for now that you're out on
your own, You're like, I quit this job because I
was working too many hours. But are you working too
many hours doing the thing that you love now or
have you been able to find a good balance.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's it's a continuous process to try and find that balance.
You know, there's there's good parts of what I'm doing
now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now.
When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example,
you know, Friday night, when I walked out of the office, poof,
I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now
it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing,

(12:42):
there's always this background process running like, oh, how can
I tweak this, how can I make that better? How
can I you know, increase the value of this product,
et cetera. Because it's it's you know, like you said,
it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword
because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's
harder for me to be, you know, at home and
present with my kids then it would be if I
had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure.

(13:04):
But on the other hand, it's like they get to
witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas
if I was just kind of work a day, humdrum,
you know, waddling to the office and coming back a
little bit mad, then you know, that wouldn't be That
wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the
role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either.
And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely

(13:27):
have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of
like raising a kid where it's just like even if
you even if you do figure out the perfect balance,
you're not necessarily it's not going to be an always
in forever thing. It's it's like two weeks from now, boom,
something happens and you've got to figure out a new one.
So it's it's a work in progress.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well,
but like the risk versus reward isn't quite There are
a lot of times when it comes to folks taking
the standard nine to five jobs. Yes, you kind of
hints it at this, but like there's almost like an
obsession with safeness, like reducing a risk safetysm in our
country today. And you've kind of talked about how you're

(14:06):
kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't necessarily
have to come from entrepreneurship. But there is a lot
that you realize when you are starting your own business,
Like the highs are higher, maybe maybe the lows or
lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to
tap into something that gives you that truly gives you joy.
Is that something that you feel like you've seen as

(14:26):
opposed to folks who just are kind of going along
with the stock lifestyle and because of that, they're not
really questioning how it is that they're making money, and
they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money
as well.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yes, I mean, entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart,
because for you know, it'll be six weeks of just
this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job.
You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like
the best forty eight hours in company history. And so
it's like this you know, punctuated equilibrium of like you know,
you zoom out and look at how things have gone

(14:58):
over the last six to twelve months, Like, holy cow,
I've actually been doing this. It's working, but the lived experience,
week in week out is just exhausting. You know. It's
just this this constant string of it's it's kind of
like if you're whatever watching your investment accounts every day.
The way that we're wired as humans is that if
it's up fifty cents one day and down fifty cents
the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad,

(15:20):
because like, bad's way more than goods psychologically speaking. But
when you zoom out and then you know, go back
and look at your at your brokerage account, you know,
after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good,
I made a good decision.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah all right, so you brought up investing, So I'm
gonna go there now. We our friend Doc g He
talks about front loading the sacrifice, and it is of
course true that a dollar invested when you're nineteen is
going to do more for you than a dollar invested
at age like forty nine. Right. So, and we've heard
more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists
have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind

(15:57):
of you know, borrow a little more when you're younger,
don't invest quite as much, start investing in your forties.
How do you think about finding a happy medium though
in those early years when investing is important, But I
don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, i'd say one, do as I say, not as
I do. I screwed this up big time when I
was when I was in my initial career, because I
part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my
job as much as I should, And so I had
this you know, if I'm unhappy at work, then I
thought that the cure for that was like, Okay, sprint

(16:33):
for the finish line and like get out of here
as soon as possible. And so what that's a recipe
for is like, Okay, you're unhappy at work, so yeah,
let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home too,
and that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home,
that just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't
want to be like sprinting for the finish line and
just like is scrimping and saving and you know, investing

(16:54):
every single little penny and not being willing to you know,
experience your life. But at the same time, I I
kind of get queasy when I when I hear people advocating,
you know, that kind of economist dictum of consumptions moving
to like, oh yeah, borrow, to borrow to the hilt,
you know, like when you're twenty two, and then don't worry,
it'll all work out when you're.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, we're always going to make more and you'll be
able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you
were younger.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Right, And so I would say, I would say, you know,
live within your means first and foremost. You know, you
want the bank account to be going up, not down,
and so live within your means. And that means different
things for different people. But then I think it's just
as important, especially for people who are wired like I am,
which is, you know, like a kind of caveman style
like saving good spending bad type.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
When people ask me what's been like, I always say, Caveman,
that's yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Exactly, the old Geico commercial.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, just like that.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right exactly, it bingo And so that that's me. And
so for people who are wired like that, I think
oftentimes you need some encouragement to take some ownership of
your spending it and do that craft beer equivalent type
of thing. Because honestly, for me, when I kind of
what made the lights come on was I was realizing myself, like, dude, okay,
you're afraid to bust spend eighty dollars on this board game?
What are you? What are you teaching yourself? If you

(18:07):
if you like, if you defer this purchase, if you
just like, don't do this thing that's going to make
you happy, Well, one, you're not going to be happy
now because you're not gonna be able to, like, you know,
play this game with your wife or whatever. And two,
you're training yourself to think that, you know, happiness is
cheaper than it is for you. The reality is if
if happiness for you guys is like craft beer every day,

(18:28):
then you don't want to lie to yourself about what
that happiness costs. You want to like pull the first
fruits of retirement forward and experience them every day until
retirement in addition to when you're you know, sipping them
on the beach or whatever.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
It's just the head off the top of the beer.
We're not even pulling the full first fase forward, but
it's just it's just a little bit, just a little
bit of the taste. But what you're talking about here,
you know, I guess up until now, we've we've been
talking about earning money in career and finding fulfillment there.
But what a lot of what you're talking about here
has to do with how how it is that you
spend your money. And so we're actually going to spend
a lot more of our conversation with you talking about

(19:02):
just that. We will get to more on time and
money with Ben Miller.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Right after the break. All right, let's keep talking about
time and money such an important relationship. And some people
I might think, Matt, that you and I think that
money is the most important thing. Heck, we've been doing

(19:26):
a podcast about money for almost going on six years now.
We talk about it three times a week, right, and yes,
money is clearly an important thing, but we always talk
about it as a tool, right, It's a tool that
allows us to pursue other things in our lives, some
of which are more important. And so we're talking with
Ben Miller about why time is actually more important with
money than money, and so Ben, why is this connection

(19:48):
between time and money? Why is it so important for
us to make that connection? And for instance, like a
recurring one hundred dollars a monthly expense, it might make
us feel a certain way, but then thinking about it
in terms of how many hours of our life that's spending,
is co us that it kind of hits us differently,
doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Absolutely? And I think I think ultimately all this stuff
hinges around the concept of enough. You know, that's like
a really tricky word when it comes to finance, and
so if you don't have a good framework, you're just
not able to really understand what enough even means. And
so ultimately what enough means is going to be different

(20:23):
for different people. That's going to be based, you know,
primarily upon their spending, and then you know they're going
to have to apply some kind of a multiple of Okay,
here's how many years I think I'm going to live
during retirement? Or whatever it may be, but we don't
want to get complicated here. The idea here is that
like when you think about spending your money, you want
to make sure that it's a good deal. You don't
want to make sure you're not like frittering it away

(20:44):
on things that you don't actually care about. But likewise,
you don't want to make the other type of error either.
You don't want to refuse to spend money on things
that are actually good for you. So use that, you know,
one hundred dollars recurring expense, like I think about, for example,
date night with my wife. And so so I'm a
guy who like feels a little bit queasy every time
a dollar leaves his wallet. And so normally when I, like,

(21:06):
you know, pay for something, when I'm signing the check,
I'm just like kind of shaking my head, you know,
hopefully inside my head and not actually the people that
I'm at dinner with, but like I'm thinking, like, oh, gosh, Ben,
you really screwed this one up. Like there's more money leaving,
Like the money's going the wrong way.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Shouldn't have got the appetizer.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right exactly exactly. And so for me, that's the way
that I'm wired. But when I understand things in terms
of time, then all of a sudden I can have
ownership and permission. Because for example, that that you know,
one hundred dollars expense, I might look at that, run
the numbers and go like, okay, that is delaying my
retirement by three months. Just let's just say then if

(21:45):
I look at that you know, date night with my
wife and go okay, this is delaying my retirement by
three months, then I go, okay, is that scary to me? Well, One,
I love my job and so like you know, delaying
my retirement is not really all that scary. And two,
I'm investing in the relationship that's the bedrock of my family,
and so if anything, I'll do it twice as much

(22:07):
like this is a great deal for me. So now
when I sign that check, instead of just feeling like,
uh wrong, money's going the wrong way, I feel like, Okay, good,
this is approved. This is you know, kind of been
blessed by the system, and it's something that I that
I feel good about rather than bad about.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, and kind of going back to what you're saying
about knowing what it is to have enough and as
far as delaying your retirement by a certain number of
months or even years, I guess for maybe a giant purchase.
But you write about too, how it's not even about
reaching some sort of golden date, right like and within
the fire community, it's like what's your number yea, and

(22:44):
it's you talk about how it's not often about that
and on how to money, Like when we talk about it,
we call it the basically how financial independence exists as
a spectrum, but you talk about it within the sort
of context of being able to curate problems. Can you
talk about some of the other benefits how even if
you're not necessarily focused on a hard retirement date sort

(23:06):
of like like you're not because you love the work
that you do, but it does provide some other benefits.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
I love that. I mean, curating problems is a concept
that's near and dear to my heart. Like I think
that one of the best things about you know, quote
unquote financial independence. And I don't want to creep people out, like,
you know, there's there's a lot of like there's a
lot of baggage that comes with this term of financial independence.
So what I'm talking about when I say that is
like basically having enough money to choose how you spend

(23:32):
your time, just to just to put it in broad strokes,
and so one of the best parts about that state
of the world is being able to determine, you know,
just based on your soul discretion, what's worth your time
and what's not worth your time. And so it's not
like this abject refusal to ever earn a dollar again,
is just the state of the world where you can determine, like,

(23:52):
this is a problem that I really want to spend
some time on, This is something that animates me and
makes me feel good, versus this is something that I
wish somebody else would do, you know, because that's that's
this kind of illusion people think that like work is
the enemy. And you know, I can tell by the
you know, the product that you guys create and how
much joy that it's obvious that you take in creating it,
that this is not something that's like, oh yeah, if

(24:13):
you'd you know, ten million dollars dropped out of the
sky tomorrow. It's not like Joel and Matt would be like, peace,
you guys are we're out last episode.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
It's coming out Today's out forever exactly like you you
would probably kind of keep on going, you know, maybe
at a reduced pace or something. I don't know, but
like you, you know, if you're creating something that you
actually like seeing in the world, then.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
It doesn't have to be all about money. So I
hope that answers your question.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely talk to us about mindset. And I
don't want to get super frefreu here or anything like that.
But like it's it's true that we're humans. We can't
necessarily change how we think overnight, and even if we did, right,
it wouldn't make our our paycheck fatter immediately. It doesn't
solve everything, but our mindset plays a role in the
kind of progress that we make. So so how do
you think about the scarcity mindset and how it can

(25:03):
it can maybe stemy our journey towards financial freedom, right,
like if we're if we're too focused on that, like,
oh man, my dollars are gonna run out, Like you
can almost create, uh, like mental problems. Are you ever
in our path actually free?

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah? Exactly?

Speaker 2 (25:18):
And I think that's it's beautiful because you're pointing at
the fact that there's a ditch on both sides of
the road. You clearly don't want to be like setting
yourself up for a cat food retirement, you know, just
like completely blowing all your money on stuff you don't
care about. But likewise you don't want to, you know,
just wind up that guy who's got seven million dollars
in the bank and was you know, was not spending

(25:39):
any of it and and wasn't able to enjoy any
of it because like people, people missed that second leg
of the swap, that second leg of the transaction. You know,
if you're good about money, then you're building up your
bank accounts, you're investing, you're doing all that type of stuff.
But like savings are always in everywhere, just delayed consumption.
Like that's all you're doing when you're saving money, is

(25:59):
your deferring it to some future date. And so that
scarcity mindset type of thing. People people kind of get
lulled into this this you know, false sense of things
when they think that, you know, budgeting is like a
symptom of a scarcity mindset or something like that. It's
not you're you're by by budgeting or by you know,
saving money or by you know, considering the future. I

(26:22):
think it's actually evidence of an abundance mindset because you're
you know, you're admitting to yourself that there is a
future worth saving for. And so I think I think
it's important for people to strike that balance the right way,
not spend too little, not spend too much, you know,
kind of try and find their own goldilock zone of

(26:42):
being able to you know, spend in a way that
is aligned with their goals is going to get them
where they want to be eventually, but be able to enjoy,
be enjoy think, be able to enjoy their lives along.
The way I did things backwards, I was like financial
independence a SAP. This was my mentality back in the day.

(27:03):
Was like, okay, financial independence asap and then happiness eventually.
And that was for me completely backwards. You know. I
wound up having to get off that train and realizing
that like, Okay, this is not sustainable, Like I'm going
to burn myself out before I get to you know,
fire or whatever it is. So I need to take
a more measured path, you know, build a machine that's
actually gonna be able to sustain itself all the way

(27:24):
to the conclusion.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah, man, I think some of the saddest things to
me when I read some posts in the Fire reddit
forums and stuff of people who.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Win don't spend too much time there.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, right, no I don't. But I'll see a
case in the cautionary tale. Yeah, I'll see a cautionary
tale of somebody who who says, listen, I bought into
this hook line at sinkery, and I missed a bunch
of important time. I didn't go to the family events
that because I was too scared to buy a plane ticket.
My girlfriend dump me. That's the story, because I mean,
there's all of these kinds of stories out there that
You're right, there's a ditch on both sides, and so

(27:56):
that is like what we're always talking about here on
the show is the balanced middle where yeah, have a
have a high savings rate, but don't forsake the important
stuff in the meantime on the road, every day, every
minute is worth saving. And if we're if we're so
heavily focused on the future, and I think Matt and

(28:16):
now we've probably been there at different times too, maybe
not as much of an extreme as some of these
Fire adherents, but you're missing out on a lot of
the good and awesome things that you can enjoy now too.
Absolutely Okay, So.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
What you talk about is how not only do we
need to own our saving and investing, but we also
need to own our spending. Right, And that's just the
language you give to being intentional with your spending, because
oftentimes folks are only focused on that acquiring side of
the equation as opposed to the spending side of it.
And so do you have any thoughts or any advice

(28:49):
for folks on how it is that they can transition
to spending more money? Right as folks are starting to
make that switch, you do have to be a little
more intentional with how it is that you're spending money.
Hopefull you are there are small ways that you are
spending even when you are young and you feel broke,
but there are these small, tiny, little splurges.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
But it's yeah, it.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Exists on a spectrum. And as folks are achieving varying
degrees of financial freedom, how do you encourage folks to
think about spending more money than they're used to?

Speaker 2 (29:17):
I mean, Step one is knowing what you value. Step
one is understanding you know, for you as an individual,
what are your priorities? What is it that you're actually
all about? You know? And so if that's time with
your family, or if that is, you know, building some
building towards some fulfilling mission in the world, whatever it is.
If you're spending money along those lines, then there's a

(29:37):
good chance that there's a fair amount of alignment. You know,
when I look at my habits, when I look at
the types of things that I'm spending my money on,
it's it's again, it's a two edged sword, because I'm
trying to simultaneously identify things the places that I can
trim the fat, so to speak, places that I go, oh,
I didn't realize I'm spending so much money there. Okay,
then I should probably tone that down, you know, let's

(29:59):
be more intentional on that its own. But I'm also
looking for places that I can double down. I'm looking
for places that I can go, Okay, this looks like
an unusually good deal, you know, this whatever date night
with my wife or a gym membership or or whatever
it may be. These positive habits, how can I lean
into that, and how can I find other things like

(30:19):
that that are aligned with my priorities and things that
I really want to to be more about. Because you know,
if you want to figure out what's important to somebody.
There's a good argument that you should just go look
at their you know, their credit card register and see
what they've been spending their money on.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, and their calendar whatever they've been spending their time.
To be exactly, we say something matters, Oh, time with
my kids matters. Well, I don't know how much time
are it?

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Exactly? Like did you did you hop on the bike
with them this over the weekend or whatever? I mean?

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, And I love that you focus so much on time,
Ben because and you know, because you might look at
somebody's bank account and they may not actually be spending
their money, right, and so you have the ability to
see from their spending or specific from their lack of
spending that, man, what what is it that you actually
do value? Because there is a way to kind of
choke that off. Whereas the time that like our days,

(31:10):
no matter what, we are spending our time doing something
we're forced to no matter like, you can't stop time.
It is taking along no matter what. And so even
if your Netflix and chilling literally the whole day, yes,
or even if you have a completely you're like, oh
I can't wait for Saturday. The calendar is completely wide open, Well,
you're going to do something with that time is so
what you actually do with that I think does reflect

(31:31):
on what it is that that you truly do value.
I think if you were to sum it up like that,
we are kind of the sum of our habits, the
things that we spend our time doing. We kind of,
I don't know, become in a sense formed by those habits. Right,
And and there are some habits that have negative financial consequences.
In your in the software that you developed Chronify, you

(31:51):
talk about the impact of habits on our lives? How
do you do that in the software? And and then
how do you help people understand their habits and the
financial and time consequences of them?

Speaker 2 (32:02):
Sure, I think, well, unsurprisingly, it's all about time. And
so when I think of when I think of a habit,
and you think about something as tricky as human behavior,
you know, changing a habit is not easy. And so
what we try and do is we try and you know,
marry together the left brain spreadsheety sort of numbers side
of the equation with the right brain, you know, holistic

(32:22):
emotional side of things. That's where you're going to make
all your decisions anyway, So let's work through. Like an example,
if you have a habit. Let's say you you know,
you're at the office. You you get like a fancy
sandwich at work for lunch or that type of thing,
and you're thinking about a habit change. You're going like, oh, okay,
my waistline and my budget are saying that maybe I
should maybe think about this habit. Then you might think

(32:44):
about packing lunch to work, for example. And if you
do that, then you may get to the end of
the month and you realize, like, okay, I save two
hundred dollars by packing my lunch to work instead of
buying this fancy sandwich. And if you do that, then
if you've made some progress and you've already kind of
accumulated some investments and stuff, you might look at your
brokerage acount at the end of the month and go

(33:04):
like it's up or down by five ten grand, and
it's like, why did I do this to myself? Why
did I deprive myself of this you know, midday treat
or whatever. But you're kind of missing the missing the
point because you're you're looking at and you're going two
hundred dollars versus ten grand. This is out of my control.
Why do I care? But the reality is the power
of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that

(33:25):
that you know, two hundred dollars a month is two
hundred dollars a month, and so that's twenty four hundred
dollars a year, which if you're going to invest money
and try and live off your money forever, then that
requires you know, assume the four percent rule four percent
real return after taxes or whatever. Then you need sixty
thousand dollars to fund that habit in perpetuity. And so

(33:48):
it's no longer comparing this two hundred dollars savings with
you know this ten grand that your brokerage account went
up or down. You're comparing you know this, this ten
grand that your brokerage account went up and down with
a six sixty thousand dollars impact of this habit. And
so what we kind of do by looking at things
in terms of time is right, size all of this
and adjust for the fact that, look, if you if

(34:10):
you decrease your expenses, then yes, you know, you're running
faster toward the finish line. But the beautiful thing is
when you metric it in terms of time, you also
see that the finish line is running towards you, because
if your expenses go lower, then enough is lower, and
if enough is lower, it takes less time to get there.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, that sounds like, I don't know, make you feel
better knowing that not only are you ening closer, but
like the finish line is inching further in your direction too. Yes, Ben,
we got a couple more questions for you, including curious
to hear your take on paying for convenience you're essentially
buying time back. I would love to hear your thoughts
on that. We'll get to a couple questions on that
front right after this.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
All right, back to our conversation with Ben Miller and
uh been right before the brake, Joel, you know we
were talking about your app Chronify. Personally, I was secretly
hoping that your one of your craft beer equivalents was
going to be watches, like like, because I don't think
we've ever had anybody on the show where they were like,
oh I like to collect vintage Rolex's or like, oh yeah,

(35:16):
I've got a bunch of pocket watches Omega Speedmasters or
something like that. I only say this because there's a
brief period of time where I really got into them
and I thought, is this something? Am I going to
be like a watch guy? And I was like, no way,
these things are way too expensive. It would be a
fitting hobby for you, though, Ben, it would be I
would be.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
I'm ashamed to say I've just got a fitbit. That's
that's what I'm wrong.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Hey, I've got a bracelet that my daughter made on
my rest. But been like different optimization gurus out there,
like they've kind of created a cult around productivity, and
oftentimes you can kind of enter that space when you're
talking about time and it's our belief that I think
oftentimes this goes overboard and it leads many folks to

(35:57):
just like a nose to the grindstone mentality where you
are foregoing any pleasures into here now. So you know,
some optimization is helpful, but do you think it can
be overdone?

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone. I think
people who are wired like I think you guys are
and like I am, you know, there's a there's a
temptation to really to really go ham on optimization, but
you got to you gotta make sure that you're you know,
accounting for your humanity here, Like, you're not a robot.
It's not a it's not a it's not a matter
of putting in the right code and then just executing

(36:32):
until you die. It's it's about finding something that's not
only you know, going to get you where you're going
and do it on time, but also you know in
being able to enjoy and savor it all along the way,
because ultimately, like you get to the end of the
end of your life on your deathbed, all that matters
is human connection anyways. And so if you're if you're
optimizing for anything other than that, you're kind of messing

(36:53):
it up.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Hmm. I love that. Okay, let's talk about paying for
convenience because it's saving you time, right, which is, as
we said, kind of the most critical resource here. But
Americans are also spending a lot of money on convenience
that they might not be able to afford. I'm thinking, like,
some kinds of paying for convenience makes sense to me,
but then other kinds make a whole lot less sense.
Grub Hub, for example, I don't get it, like I'm

(37:14):
not going to do it, but then there are other
things where I do pay someone to let's say, mow
my lawn so that Saturdays I can spend on the
hiking trails or with kids doing activity stuff like that.
What are your thoughts on paying for comedians and where
do you draw the line?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Oh man, I'm kind of an aw shucks Midwesterner, and
so like I was feeling incriminated because, like I still
mow my lawn and it's probably a horrible.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Use of my time.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
It's like I, I it's different for different people, you know.
For me, it's like I kind of look for those
two firs or three furs in life where it's just like, okay,
well it might be it might take me less time
to drive to the gym, but maybe it's you know,
I'm going there anyways to exercise, and so maybe I
should walk. For me, I look at mowing my lawn
and d'er kind of like a similar rubric where it's
just like, Okay, well I was going to get some

(37:58):
physical activity, I might as well, you know, do something,
do something productive with it. But in terms of paying
for convenience, I think it's all about your values. It's
all about you know, one, live within your means. That's
rule number one. If you're breaking that one, like sort
that out before we get into this stuff. But if
you're able to live within your means, then it's about
figuring out what your what your values actually are. And so,

(38:19):
like I think of one of the habits that always
kind of comes up on the top of my charts.
It's a fast casual restaurant called Kava. It's kind of
like a Mediterranean interpol. Actually they just ipot and so
maybe more people think about them, and then I'm aware
of anyways, I think of that and I go, Okay,
well should I feel ashamed of this? You know, like
what are what are we doing here? And really what
it is is it's a way for us to put

(38:41):
food on the table that's you know, clean, healthy and
convenient without the cooking and cleaning and just be able
to kind of sit down with all five of us
as a family and enjoy ourselves. And so I look
at that and it's like, yes, we're paying more for convenience,
but for us, it's mission aligned and so it's it's
those convenience things. Is that's how I That's the rubric

(39:04):
that I evaluated under is does it align with my mission?
And can I afford it? And if both of those
come back. Yes, then go for it.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
But do you get it delivered or do you go
pick it up?

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (39:12):
No, we pick it up.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
We're not okay, we're not right. That's what I like
to hear. Ben doesn't have that delivery money. Like that's
a demarcation on the financial independent spectrum is how readily
are you ordering.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
Food to be literally dropped? Are delivery?

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Five?

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yeah? Right? Yes, I don't know that I've ever got
enough money in my bank account to overcome like the
what's like what's built inside of me?

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Right in particular, because if that doesn't align with your mission.
So like, I like how you said that, Ben, because
that kind of goes back to you know, when it
comes to how we should think about spending more money,
it's like, do I value this? It comes down to intention, yes,
because it makes me think about For a while there,
I was cutting my own grass because not because I

(39:57):
was afraid of spending the money, but because I wanted
my kids to see me cutting the grass. There is
a lesson there and seeing and for them, and I
literally made them, made them watch it.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Sit here on this step and I'll watch it. Watch
that cuts.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
But it's just I don't know that there's there's a
lesson to be to be taught there, and we're like,
we're doing something similar right now when it comes to cleaning,
cleaning the house, and because I'm like, we are in
a financial position to where we could clean the house,
but I want my kids to know what it is like,
what it's like to clean the house, for them to
pick up all their things, to dust their their blinds.

(40:30):
Like literally, we did that this past Saturday, and I
kind of I try to brainwash them a little bit.
We call it super Saturday, but it's where we it's
good branding and in the morning we go hog wild
and we go to town on the cleaning. Because I
we may not always do that, but at least for
a period of time and maybe and definitely who knows,
because maybe they'll get so good at it that I
don't know, they're able to like knock it out faster
and faster. But I think, like you said, man, if

(40:52):
you are able to align the mission of what it
is that you are doing with how it is that
you're spending money or not spending the money, I think
think that can lead to the justification to be parted
with your dollars. Whether again whether or not you're saving
money or whether you are actually spending that money. But
at the end of the day, I think that's what's
at the core of this conversation.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I absolutely and to me, it comes back to curating
your problems because you know, you might opt into cleaning
the house while you opt out at mowing the lawn.
That's just fine, you know. Like there, it's different strokes
for different folks, and it's something that everybody kind of
has to figure out for themselves. What's important to remember
is that it is this balance that needs to be

(41:34):
struck because you don't want to be, you know, just
completely di ying everything and shooting yourself in the foot.
You know by doing so. You don't want to be whatever,
stitching your own shoes and weaving your own clothes, you know,
at least for most people. But at the same time,
you don't want to be outsourcing everything either, because if
you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone

(41:55):
and outsourced your life. You need to participate in solving
some problems because otherwise, like frankly, there's nothing left to
life once you subtract, you know, all the problems. What
are you just gonna lay there blissed out and like
looking at the sky like there's there's.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Like Peter from office Space, right. I think some people
that's like kind of their goal is. I think I'm
gonna eventually get to that. But what you're alluding to
is our lives never run out of problems, they just
look different.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, exactly, And so it's it's about choosing which problems
you opt into and being able to choose that is
a wonderful thing.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, for sure, Ben, this has been a great conversation. Man,
Thank you so much for joining us. How can our
listeners find out more about about you, about your podcast
and about the Chronified software that you've created.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, so we've got a podcast, the Quantify Podcast, aptly named,
and the main way is you can come and check
out Chronify. In fact, if you go to chronified dot
com slash how to Money, there's a twenty five percent
discount waiting for you. And that's that's good as long
as we're as long as we're alive and kicking. So
that that's the first month, it's it's good forever. So
I would love to I love what you guys are doing.

(43:00):
I love the podcast, I love you know, the awareness
that you guys are creating about the right way to
think about this stuff. And so I really want to say,
I appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh Man, No, we're glad. I'm glad to do it.
We're just too idiots learning on the fly. Honestly, as
we're having these conversations, we're and we're learning alongside our audience.
We're not here from some perch up above trying to
tell people how to live. And so that's why these
conversations are so informative, helpful for Matt and I and
hopefully for the audience too. So Ben, we appreciate you
coming on, man, Thank you, Thank.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
You nice joel Man. It's always fun to talk with
somebody who is like missionally aligned, right, like Ben is
thinking about his money and his time in a similar way.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
That we try to that we strive to at least.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
And I just said missionally aligned. And so I'm gonna
go actually gonna go ahead and give my big takeaway.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Because stealing Ben's phrases now it is well.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
One of the things that Ben said, like when it
comes to like that was the advice he had for
trying to determine what it is that you're going to
spend money on. He said, like what is it that
you value? And similarly, what is it like what is
your mission going to be? And this is a quick
plug for the how to money mission statement. It takes
some time. It takes a little bit of introspection, asking

(44:11):
yourself the right questions in order to figure out what
it is that your mission is going to be, in
order to figure out subsequently then what it is that
you're going to spend your money on. And so that
was my big, big takeaway, And that's not necessarily anything new,
and so I'm gonna I've got a new thought because
when it comes to a lot of times, folks come
to us with questions and they're like, Okay, should I
pay off this debt or should I do something else

(44:32):
with it? And oftentimes what we say is that it
depends and specifically it depends on what you're doing without money.
If you don't pay down that debt, right, it's like, sure,
you could eliminate some student loans where you're paying seven percent,
but are you then going to take that money and
invest it where you're based on historic returns, you're going
to earn at least seven percent, Because if not it

(44:52):
might be a waste of money, right, And so let's
take that same principle and apply it to time. I
think that's another way that I'm going to start using
to deter and whether or not something is worth me
spending the money on. Okay, I have now gained time
in my life. I have essentially made time. Now what
am I gonna do with that time? Am I going
to use that time and funnel it towards things that

(45:12):
are that I place a high value on, towards things
that are missionally aligned with what I say are important?
Or am I just gonna like sit around like like
you know, I thought, like you were saying, am I
going to end up on the couch browsing Netflix or
something like that, looking for you know, just ways to
pass the time? Well, if that were to be the case,
and that would be a poor use of spending that money. Right,

(45:34):
If I pay somebody to cut the yard and instead
I'm using that time to watch more TV. Well, you
know what, if you're if you want to be like
a movie critic or like okay, then it could be
missionally aligned. But for the vast majority of folks, that's
it's just a default thing because Oh, the sofa in
the couch, it's comfortable. I'm gonna sit there. Oh, the
remote is just right here. And it's just something you

(45:55):
kind of fall into. Folks are like, we're so tempted
to just hit the easy button and we haven't thought
through some of these more value driven ways that we
could spend not only our money, but our time. And
so that I just want to take that principle from
money and I want us to also apply it to time.
What are you then going to take the time that
you've made or the time that you've saved. Is that

(46:16):
going to something that you actually value? Yeah, that's my big.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Take I think my biggest takeaway was when he said,
thinking in terms of time, it grants you ownership and permission, right,
And so he gave the example of going out to eat,
going on date night with his wife and how when
he thought when he thinks of it as just dollars
floating out, he gets nervous. Right, He's a reluctant spender,
which I can identify with. But when he thinks about

(46:40):
it in terms of oh, yeah, it's going to cost
me some time off for retirement, off my future ability
to not have to work well, actually it's not as
big of a deal because this is a really important
thing and I like my work. And so when it
gave him actually the permission to spend money in a
way that he was reticent to do, and I thought
of that as being really empowering. And I think when

(47:01):
we think about what something costs us, not just in
terms of dollars and cents, but also in terms of
hours of the day, it can really help us to
reframe whether or not that thing is worth it or not.
And so, yeah, it does it make sense to spend
the money on a convenience or on a new item

(47:21):
for your wardrobe. I don't know, think about your hourly rate.
Maybe figure that out. We've talked about how to do
that on a previous podcast, and think about it in
terms of that Wait a second, is that new dress
or that new sport code worth four point eight hours
of my life? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe that
reframes the purchase a little bit, and it either helps
empower you to spend in ways that you do value

(47:42):
or kind of puts the kaibash on spending in a
way that you're like, eh, eh, I don't think it's
worth it.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, no, I love it man. Yeah, not surprisingly, our
takeaways are related, like whereas I mean your specifically, I
think what you're kind of getting at are the emotions
that can surround purchases, like feelings of freedom or empowerment,
or feelings of regrets or reluctance when it comes to
spending our money. But if you are able to identify
the things that you value in life, it makes not

(48:08):
only saving but also spending your money so much easier.
And I appreciate that Ben focuses on that side of
the equation as much as hopefully we do. I think
we spend a decent amount of time talking about That's
why we talk about the craft beer equivalent, right, because
we're looking for things from our guests that they valued,
you know, we want to frame the conversation around that.
It's not just about saving and investing as much as

(48:30):
humanly plains.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
So I feel like in recent years I've been able
to find more joy in spending in the ways that
I care about, the ways that I say that I
care about, instead of feeling reluctant to do those things,
largely through kind of changing my framework.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
But it's important to do.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, you mentioned beer let's get back to the beer
we had on the show. This is called aproguav Tasty.
It's by the Veil and Veil. Of course, we like
spending ridiculous amounts of money on good craft beer from
time to time, this one being no exception. Or your
thoughts on the spear map.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
Yeah, well I like it in the label. It's not
like an ice cream cone. It looks like like the graphic.
It's like this rad ice cream cone guy, But it
doesn't necessarily taste like sugart or anything like that. But
this is one percent like a smoothie style sour lots
of fruit going on.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Man.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
This thing poured quite thick, and I was expecting it
to be a bit sweeter, but it was not. It
had like, I don't know, the kind of sweetness that
you would get from real fruit, which oftentimes isn't super
sugary artificial but really tasted like fruit and beer form.
Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, there's no high fruit corn syrup

(49:37):
sugars in here. This feels like all true fruit sugar
sugariness that the guy going on here, but super good.
I'm not normally a do you like apricots? Oh?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I was just about to say apricots are underutilized in beer.
I think they're one of the best fruits to stick
in a beer, and for some reason, very few people
use them.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
I'm not yeah, I'm not a huge How do you
eat apricots? You get them like dried out where they're
like the they're like gehn.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
I always get him in beer form. Oh yeah, like peaches.
I feel like peaches are more normal, right, Like that's
a I love peace. I don't know the last time
I had an actual apricot. That was probably when I
was a kid. Oh is it?

Speaker 3 (50:11):
I don't even know how to say it.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
You eat tomato? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Man, Yeah, it's not my favorite, but I definitely enjoyed
it in beer for I'm glad you and I got
to enjoy and you did taste some of those tropical
guava notes going on there a little bit as well.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
But uh, and definitely like an interesting body inconsistency too.
Talking about the thickness.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
Yeah, it truly is like it was like we're again,
is like we cracked open an odwala and we're pouring
one of those out or or naked juice. I don't
even know if they make out Walla anymore. I don't
know anyway, that's gonna be it for this episode. Enough
about our beer. You can find the links that we
mentioned up in our show notes at how tomoney dot com,
including the link to the special offer that the Ben's

(50:51):
got out there for our listeners.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
It never expires for the rest of time, which makes sense.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
It all fits together. Yeah, what do you do? You
also wish that he would have said watches. Yeah, I
feel like that would have been to like batman villain
ish if he was just like if he's like obsess
with time, like flavor, Flavor keeps one on his neck. Yeah,
but that's gonna be it for this episode, buddy. Until
next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,

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Joel Larsgaard

Matthew Altmix

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