February 27, 2020 • 35 mins
Just in time for March Madness, Katie talks with legendary Notre Dame women’s basketball coach Muffet McGraw about how the Hall of Famer is working to diversify college sports, the failures of Title IX, and why we need more women leaders on and off the court. Then, Carla Williams—athletic director at the University of Virginia and the first black woman to hold the position at a Power Five school— talks candidly about the pressures of being a pioneer in a male-dominated field, and why the burden to diversify college sports shouldn’t rest solely with women and people of color. Later, some of Muffet’s former players, including Memphis Grizzlies assistant coach Niele Ivey, reveal what it meant to have a mentor like Muffet to look up to—and how her strength continues to inspire them long after leaving campus.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next Question
on today's episode. I knew from the first time I
picked up the ball this was something I wanted to
do the rest of my life. Just in time for
March Madness, I sit down with Muffett McGraw, head coach
of the Notre Dame women's basketball team. Muffett is one
of the winningess coaches in the history of the sport,
(00:22):
one of just five coaches in men or women's Division
one basketball with more than nine hundred and twenty career wins.
She's led the Fighting Irish to the Final four an
impressive nine times and has taken home the national championship
titled twice, most recently and memorably in two thousand eighteen,
(00:42):
when Notre Dame one with a heart thumping buzzer beater
hon Jennifer j Seventeen years to the day, the Notre
Dame party as Hall of Famer. Muffett McGraw is now
(01:06):
in her thirty third season at Notre Dame, but she's
always been an outspoken advocate for women in sports. In fact,
during the n C Double A Final four last year,
her impassioned press conference about the need for more women
leaders went viral. We don't have enough female role models,
we don't have enough visible women leaders, We don't have
enough women in power. Girls are socialized to know when
(01:29):
they come out, generals are already set. Men run the world.
Men have the power, Men make the decisions. But wouldn't
it be great if we could teach them to watch
how women lead. When you look at men's basketball and
the jobs go to men, why shouldn't one of the
jobs and women's basketball go to women? Right now? Few
(01:53):
women sit at the top of the college athletics food chain.
If you look at one of the most powerful jobs
at athletic director, only ten percent of them nationwide are
women today, though you'll meet one of them. Growing up
in the industry, there were that many um female role
models in key decision making positions in athletics. Carla Williams
(02:17):
made history in two thousand seventeen when she became the
University of Virginia's athletic director, the first African American woman
to lead athletics at one of the Power five Conference schools,
the highest most competitive level of college sports. As ironic
as it is, most of my mentors athletic director mentors
(02:40):
are men. Later, Carla tells us what it's been like
being a pioneer in this male dominated field. But first,
Muffatt McCraw on what's behind the lack of diversity in
college sports and how she forged her own path. So
my next question in college sports, when are women like
(03:00):
Carla Williams and Muffett McGraw going to be the rule
not the exception. If there's any indication of how good
a leader Muffett McGraw really is, just look to what
her players go on to accomplish. A Women's Basketball Hall
of Famer, two Olympians, twenty two All Americans, and twenty
(03:23):
two current or former w NBA players, not to mention
a number of coaches at the professional and college level.
This is Beth Cunningham. I played for coach mraw, graduated
in nine and I'm also in my eighth year coaching
alongside her at the University of Notre Dame. Beth Cunningham
(03:43):
is Notre Dame's associate head coach. She's one of a
few former players we asked to talk about how Muffett
shaped their lives on and off the court. She has
taught me how to be a confident leader and how
to lead. She's taught me the importance of doing things
the right way, not necessarily the easiest way, but the
(04:05):
right way. Mamma has taught me how as a woman
to go after what I want from life, so to
speak up for myself and other women at all opportunities.
That's Sarah leive Shirt, another former Muffett McGraw player and
one of the Originals Class of Sarah is now the
(04:25):
director of Athletics Advancement at Notre Dame. She taught me
how to be resilient in the face of adversity, how
to work harder than my mind and body thought capable,
and ultimately that to strive to be as good as
a man is to underachieved. Over the course of her
forty plus year career, Muffett has had the chance to
(04:47):
influence a lot of young women, but she says she
never really set out to become a role model. I
don't think I went into it thinking I'm going to
be able to mold these young women, and I'm going
to be able to teach these women something about um
how they can step up and use their voice. You know.
I don't think it was anything like that it was
all about just the game, and that love of the
game goes way back to her days as a little
(05:08):
girl playing on the neighborhood courts in a Philadelphia suburb.
Growing up in that time, no social media, there was,
you know, really you left the house, your mom didn't
know exactly where you were, and it was always I
was down at the playground, Me and nine guys down
at the playground. And you know, sports was always sort
of a meritocracy. If you can earn it, if you
(05:29):
have the ability, you're gonna get in the game. So
I was fortunate that I was able to get in
the game and nobody ever look twice at me. Muffett
started playing basketball well before Title nine was passed in
ninety two. That law, you might recall, was part of
a sweeping set of education amendments that made it illegal
for any institution receiving federal funding to discriminate on the
(05:52):
basis of sex. That met Schools at every level, from
elementary to college were expected to provide equal opportunities to
their male and female students, both in the classroom and
in the gym. And it was lucky for Muffett back then,
her Catholic high school was surprisingly progressive. Hard to believe,
as this is the Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia
(06:15):
was way ahead of Title nine. So girls were playing
basketball in the leads and I know in the sixties.
I'm not even sure if it was before that, but
way before Title nine came out in the early seventies,
they had teams for girls. But the program did have
its limitations. When I was playing in the early seventies,
we were playing six on six at that time, which
was horrible and not even a real game of basketball.
(06:36):
It started out three on three at each end, then
it graduated two two at each end, with rovers going
back and forth, and then finally in high school we
got back to five on five, but we still had
to do it while wearing a skirt. Oh, that's so funny.
That must have been kind of awkward at times. Oh
my god, let's not forget our femininity as uh, you know,
childbirth is a pain free experience, but running up and
(06:57):
down a basketball court, boy, that's that's something we're not
ready for. That's so funny. Well, it's nice to get
the Catholic Church a little bit of credit for being progressive,
at least in that arena, right, Yeah, for women, that's
very unusual for them. Yeah. So meanwhile, you played basketball
at St. Joseph's University and women's varsity basketball was pretty
much brand new there. What was it like back then
(07:20):
to play at the college level or did you feel
like you were, you know, very well prepared for that
given your high school experience. Well, it was the first
year it was a sport at St. Joe's, first year
returned varsity, so I was thrilled just to be a
part of it. There were no athletic scholarships. You paid
your own way, We did our own laundry, We we
drove ourselves to games. That was completely unlike what's going
(07:42):
on now and and completely different from what the men
were going through. We used to sit on the sidelines
and wait for them to finish practice, and they would
practice for as long as they wanted, whenever they wanted,
and we would just wait patiently, waiting on the side
until they finished. And it sounds like the Muffett sounds
like the guys were real jerks. They could be. I mean,
they thought very highly of themselves in their programs and
(08:04):
not very highly of you all, and kind of I
think you know, sort of dismissed your desire to play. Yeah,
I think I think they absolutely did that. And you know, socially,
it wasn't that accepted at that time for women to
be playing sports. So we had to fight against a
lot of stereotypes and we didn't have a lot of advantages.
But we just we played for love of the game,
(08:25):
and that's that's all we cared about, was that we
love what we're doing. But how did you start to
kind of develop your leadership skills? You know? I think
it started way back when I was playing at the
playground down there with the nine guys. I think that
some of the things that you learn. There's so many
great lessons that sports teaches you about work ethic and
sacrifice and being a team player and and understanding your role.
(08:47):
A little self awareness is always good. But the thing
I learned from playing down at the playground, there's no supervision,
there's no referees, So you learned conflict resolution. You learn
that you have to stand up for yourself. Um know,
the ball was in or out? Who hit it out?
Did I get fouled? And you start to learn how
people look at each other and if you're the kind
(09:08):
of guy that is calling a foul every time you
miss a shot. You find out that people don't want
you on their team anymore. They're not going to enjoy
playing with you. So I think you kind of learn
a lot about personalities, how you can talk to some
people a little differently than others. But I think the
thing that fascinates me about leadership is how different so
many leaders are and they can all be successful. There's introverts,
there's extroverts. Uh, there's people that listen a little bit more,
(09:29):
there's people that talk a little bit more. But I
think the biggest thing is leading by example. Is is
something that I always tell my team that's expected, that
that's that's something that you have to do. That's not leadership.
Leadership is not being afraid to use your voice, and
especially as a woman um starting out with not a
lot of people supporting us, you had to be able
(09:50):
to go out and really understand that this is what
I want, this is what I'm gonna say, and you
can't think that much about what other people are going
to say about it. What made you decide to give
coaching a try? Well, I graduated from St. Joe's. I
was a sociology criminal justice major, and I just really
wanted to save the world, and I had no idea
what that meant sociology. Not a lot of jobs really
(10:12):
out there in the local high school. Job opened, and
so I thought, yeah, I'll give it a try. I
wanted to stay in basketball, but there was wasn't the
opportunity to play professionally, so I took the job at
Archbishop Carol. In my first practice, I was just completely
consumed and knew this, this is definitely a passion that
I'm going to pursue. You know. It was all about
(10:32):
offense and defense, and I just I love puzzles. I
loved just kind of doodling on napkins and watching games.
And of course we don't have any female role models
back then, so I'd watch the NBA, I look at
things that they were doing and try to bring that
back to the women's side. I know that you had
a short lived stint at the Women's Professional Basketball Association,
(10:52):
and I'm curious what that was like for you, because
that was a precursor to the w n b A.
That was exciting for me. It was nineteen eighty I
played in California and mar team with the California Dreams.
So my husband got to wear a shirt that said
my wife is a dream and we would, uh, we
would go to the arena and we could count the
number of people there during the national anthem and probably
(11:14):
named most of them. Um. So it didn't get quite
the attention. The league eventually folded because of financial problems.
My contract was for eleven thousand dollars and I thought
it was the greatest thing ever, And you know, I
knew it was going to be a difficult thing to start.
But we've gone a long way obviously since then. I mean,
things have grown tremendously and I think they're getting better
now with Kathy Engelbert in charge of the w n
(11:34):
b A, but we still have such a long way
to go. What were some of the challenges back then
to kind of get women's professional basketball to a place
where people were supportive. I think the first thing was
just having some media attention and right now and I
think even today, I think we get about four percent
of media attention across all of um, you know, through
(11:57):
ESPN or newspapers or whatever kind of if there's news
out there anymore, we we just don't get any attention
people didn't even know we had a league, and I
think there's still some people that are unsure about the
w n b A. So I think we need to
have a little more better marketing advertising. It's a great product.
I think people have to come out and see it
and they'll get hooked on it. It's happening in college.
(12:17):
I think attendance has grown over the years. I think
people are getting more excited about it. We're getting a
little more exposure. I think we're on TV quite a bit,
and I think that's really helping us. But we just
have so much further to go when you look at
what's happening on the men's side, and and nobody wants
the w n b A where thinks they should be
comparable to the NBA. Not not yet, um, but I
think that we need to make some strides. And you
(12:38):
see what the soccer team is doing suing for equal pay.
I was going to ask you about that muffet about
how if there's kind of, gosh, a ripple effect with
what you see going on in women's soccer, and if
that's reaching other women's sports and kind of you know,
a rising tide lifting all boats idea. Yeah, that's that's
(13:00):
what we're hoping. And I think there's a couple of
other sports. I think there's a women's ice hockey is
trying to do the same thing. I think women's tennis
has probably done the best job. Women's golf is still
struggling with that. Um, I think all women's sports, and
I think just we we just have to change the
attitude of how we're looked at. I was gonna say
media attention is one thing, and obviously, you know they're
(13:20):
kind of inextricably linked attitudes and and impressions and media exposure.
But but how much of it is just, you know,
gender stereotypes that started when we were you and I
were young, and that still exists in so much of
the population today. I think most of it still comes
(13:42):
from that, just from the way you're raised. I think
when you look at the way people raise their sons
and their daughters, and you look at the differences and
how they talk to them, what they compliment them for. Um,
I think we're so busy telling our daughters how pretty
they are, and we never tell them how smart they are.
Trying to say that all the time to my daughters.
I have two girls and you know, I really stop myself,
(14:03):
even if I think they look prettier, I like their
dress or their outfit or whatever. When they were growing
up there now twenty eight and twenty four, but I
always say, you know, you're so smarter, you tried so hard.
Now they're saying that girls and boys should be should
be complimented for their grit and their effort. Um that
that that really is is much more helpful, obviously than
(14:27):
even saying you're smart. It's saying, wow, you really tried hard,
you really worked hard, and that's that's great. I think
that's so important because so often you see parents, especially
at sporting events. You know, they want their their child
to be the best. They want them to shoot more,
they want them to do more, they want them to
play more. If if they don't, it's the coach's fault. Um,
(14:47):
So I don't think they have the right perspective instead
of looking at it and saying, well, you know, look
at I love the way your teammates react to you
when when you say something, everybody's listening. I think you're
a really good leader. I think you're a great teammate.
You effort today was terrific. I saw you dive in
for loose balls. I saw you hustling really hard, and
everybody really appreciated that effort and things that you really
can look at and say, this is important, and then
(15:10):
they start to know that it's it's not about how
many points you scored. Um, it's really about the way
you play the game. Hi, this is Melissa leack Lightner,
a class of two thousand and ten. I played point
guard for coach Murraw, which everybody knows is her favorite
position on the floor. Melissa leack Lightner is the regional
director of Notre Dame Athletics Advancement, a department that focuses
(15:32):
on outreach and fundraising. Coach probably doesn't even realize the
ways that she impacts her players lives. Obviously, she challenged
us mentally and physically day in and day out, but
she always made you feel and believe that you are
so much more than basketball. She has helped me grow
into the woman that I am personally and professionally. She
(15:53):
really just empowers you to be your authentic self. And
she's always a phone call away, meeting a lunch. You know,
if you need advice or support, I would not be
who I am or where I am today without coach
and Notre Dame, I also probably wouldn't be as paranoid
about showing up on time and so afraid of being
(16:15):
late without her when we come back, Muffett explains why
the law that was supposed to change everything still hasn't
fixed the massive gender gap in sports leadership. Muffatt McCraw
(16:41):
was named head coach of Notre Dame's women's basketball back
in fifteen years after Title nine was enacted, and while
the number of female athletes at the college level has
skyrocketed since then, the equal resources part of the law
isn't necessarily being addressed. Title nine was the best thing
for women ever. I mean, we went from about two
(17:02):
hundred thousand girls playing sports to two million. Um. It
was just a great thing for women, giving the opportunities
and seeing how much they wanted those opportunities. But it
really didn't take effect. I think for years and years.
I'm still wondering if if it's taken effect even now.
And why do you think that's the case. You know,
I think that there's a couple of there was three
(17:25):
prongs to Title nine that you had to come up
with as a university, and and I think they were
pretty easy to say, yes, we've given them opportunities. Um,
you know, whatever they're looking for, we've satisfied this. But
what is the emotional part? You know, it was the support,
financial support that we didn't have. You know, the men
or flying places were taken a bus. There's you know,
(17:46):
eating at nice places were at McDonald's and so there
was just a lot of things. I think that emotional
support as a whole laundry list of things that you
want to look at and say it's equal, but you know,
it really isn't the attention that we're getting. You know,
when are we playing our games as opposed to one
they're playing their games. Um, there's just so many things
you have to look at. So de facto discrimination kind
of lived on. Yeah, I think most schools willingly added
(18:09):
sports and did whatever they could, but it was financially
it was difficult, and I think a lot of people thought,
if you're gonna add women sports, you're gonna have to
cut men's sports. And that was not exactly what happened.
That was not ever intended to happen, and I think
people use that as an excuse. So instead of just
adding and we need more money, We're gonna have to
make more money to be able to support these sports
(18:29):
instead of cutting men's sports. So it was a great
idea in theory, but in practice it really did take
a many many years to go into effect, and some
might argue it still hasn't fully leveled the playing field,
so to speak. No, it really hasn't. I think it
has come a long way, though, And I think that
when we started out, you know, coaches, maybe more were women.
(18:53):
So everybody coaching a women's team was a woman who
had been a pioneer and started out playing back before
Title nine. And I think a lot of women thought, well,
when we have a good program, when I'm winning enough,
when I'm in a position where i can talk more,
And I would look at that and say, if I'm
not fighting for my team, what are they going to think?
How am I representing them? How am I teaching them anything?
(19:14):
So we started to fight a little bit more for
just facilities and travel and assistant coaches salaries and so
many different things. And I think that women have to
fight for themselves because unfortunately, not many people are fighting
for us. It was very depressing preparing for this interview.
I learned that two years after Title nine became law,
(19:36):
of women's teams and college sports had female coaches, but
today that number is just under forty two percent. What
the heck is going on? Well, what happened was eventually
the salaries grew and I think we got to a
point and this wasn't until probably late in the nineties
that coaching women's basketball actually became something that was worthwhile
as a in terms of financially, and so you saw
(19:59):
a lot of men coming over into our game. They
either couldn't get a job on the men's side, they
was it was too much dues paying, they had to
wait too long to have that opportunity. But if they
went on the women's side, they could walk in and
be a head coach a lot sooner than they could
on the men's side. And so a lot of the
jobs turned into obviously men men coaching on the women's side,
(20:19):
and so they had so many more opportunities than women
because they could coach on on either side. And the
problem also was the athletic directors, mostly white men, are
going to hire people who look like them, and I
think men have a very different way of networking of
applying for jobs, of promoting themselves that women just don't do.
And I think that it was easy. And they go
and talk to the men's coach and say, what do
(20:40):
you think about this guy? Do you think he could
take over the women's team, And and that's pretty much
how it got started. You know, if I hear another
story about a man failing up, I'm gonna like slip
my wrist. I mean, every day I hear about somebody
with some job and I'm like, what, wait a second,
I thought they really screwed up. And then for women,
you have the glass cliff. You know, once they get
(21:01):
into a leadership position, if you know it, it doesn't
go perfectly. You know, Sayanara exactly. And that's we see
it on in sports or not. You see recycled coaches.
They get fired from one job, they move on to another.
But when it happens to a woman, it's very, very
difficult for them to come back and to get another job.
(21:21):
And I think that one of the big problems is
a lot of athletic directors and people in general look
and say, well, we tried a woman, it didn't work,
so now we're going back to hiring a guy. As
if that one woman represented our entire gender, and they
couldn't say it just didn't work out with that particular woman,
which is what they say when a guy fails. It's
interesting because I know the NFL had the Rooney Rule
(21:42):
and when it came to looking at coaches for every
white man they had to look at a person of
color for coaching or management jobs. But I don't know
how well that's worked, do you It's not it's not working.
I just read an article recently too, what what happened?
What's wrong? I think approach. I think they're interviewing, but
(22:03):
they're not hiring, and I think that they're kind of
moving the the idea of this is what you need
to do this. You have to be an offensive coordinator,
you have to call the plays, you have to do
this with that, and so then then uh men are
promoted to that job and then they say, now you
know what, Now we're gonna say this is what you need.
So they're constantly kind of moving the line um and
it's unfortunate. And it happens in college sports as well.
(22:25):
I think the diversity at the college level in women's
basketball is not nearly what it should be. When you
look at the tremendous amount of great athletes that we
have in our programs. I don't think the coaching staffs
represent those players. There is truly so much to Muffett,
and having known her for thirty three years as a
member of her first class notre name, I'm just one
(22:46):
of the hundreds of people she's touched and impacted profoundly.
Karen Keys has had an impressive career in sports, a
year of professional play, coaching at the D one level,
broadcast reporter, and now the coach of her former high
school back basketball team in New Jersey. I would describe
her as authentic, genuine, candid, straightforward, even blunt. But some
(23:09):
of that directness is the reason why she's such an
effective communicator as a coach. Whenever a Muffett told you
something that you might not want to hear, deep in
your heart, you knew it was what you needed the year,
and it might not all be comfortable and nice, but
in the long run, she always had your best interest
in mind as a player and person. When we come back,
(23:31):
I'll talk with a game changing athletic director who has
more than a few ideas about how to level the
playing field. It's often said if you can't see it,
you can't be it, and for a lot of young
(23:52):
female athletes, they're still not seeing themselves at the top.
Carla Williams is helping to break that mold. As I mentioned,
she's the athletic director at u v A, my alma mater,
wa Hua. Carlos says that plane sports gave her the
tools to get this far. I do believe that sports
(24:12):
is a great equalizer. I do believe that sports brings
people together, whether it's teammates or fans, um cheering for
their team, coming from all different walks of life and
being able to participate in sports has opened so many
doors for so many young people that may not have
(24:33):
had the opportunity to go to college. I'm one of them,
and so sports participation needs to be something that is
available to any kid that wants to play. And I
just think that's very basically fundamental because that opens the
door to all of those other benefits, so teamwork, hard work,
(24:55):
time management, um, learning how to play with others, perseverance.
Carlo has been a involved in every aspect of Division
one sports. She played, she coached, and then she became
an administrator, which is where she believes she can have
the most impact. In fact, today she's one of only
four female athletic directors at Power five institutions. There were
(25:18):
five of us when I became a D at Virginia,
and now there are four, and and so I don't
it's hard to to really have a good sense of
how that's going to change in a year, two years,
three years, or five ten years. It's just really hard
to gauge it. Of course, with great power comes great
(25:41):
responsibility and the pressure not to fail. Carla does what
she can for others, but also argues that the burden
to change the system should not rest solely on women
and people of color. I take seriously the opportunity to
mentor I do try to have fall conversations, emails and
(26:02):
meet with people who want to learn more and grow
in the profession. But at the same time I have
to do my job because I do realize that a
lot of people are, you know, excited and happy that
this opportunity uh existed for me, and so I do
understand what it means to a lot of people that
that aspire to this. I also understand that it could
(26:26):
be a burden also because my failure means a lot
as well, and so I can't fail, um, you know.
And so that puts uh, that's a that is a
difficult challenge. UM. And also I don't you know, creating
a diverse workforce is not always the responsibility of the
(26:52):
for the people of color, you know. And so I
try to do my best. But if I allow myself
to be the person responsible for making sure that African
American women can become athletic directors, then I won't be
an athletic director for very long. And so I really
(27:15):
think it should be a shared responsibility for me. I
had some great UM role models who were athletic directors,
and they were willing to include me in meetings, UM,
in decision making conversations that were you know, critical decision
making conversations, key decision making conversations. That is one way
(27:41):
to really help women gain more experience and be in
the room so that we can be a part of
that discussion. I think athletic directors who are willing to
be inclusive in a substantive way, UM. And that's really
the only way to do it, because it just cannot
(28:02):
be a superficial, check the box kind of position. It
really needs to be you know, engaged in real discussions,
and then of course presidents and chancellers that aren't afraid
to only look at the qualifications when hiring for athletic
director positions. I think sometimes you know it's it's you're comfortable,
(28:25):
you know, hiring people that you're comfortable with, and so
that oftentimes excludes women for sure from those opportunities. Carlos is,
diversity is key at all levels of college athletics. It's
better for players, it's better for universities, and it's better
for the game. Having a diverse set of opinions and
(28:50):
experiences and thoughts to help make the right decision is
really really important. And it's it's almost like you can't
you shouldn't have a star warting five that are all centers,
because you know that may not work. You don't have
your ball handler, you don't have your perimeter shooter, you know.
(29:10):
So their strength in um having a balanced team in sports.
So that's a given in sports, and so to me,
I see it the same in administration. Their strength to
having balance and to having diversity because you allow yourself
to hear different opinions and different experiences to make sure
(29:34):
that we're considering that we're we're making an informed decision,
and if everyone thinks like me, then I'm not so
sure that we're making a completely informed decision. And so
that's why I do That's why I think their strength
and diversity. Matham McGraw agrees that diversity is something everyone
(29:57):
needs to be working towards. I think every coach in
the country as to look and say, how can I
support women? How can I hire more women? There's so
many talented women out there in the w n b
A when they want to get out and start coaching,
where is their opportunity. It's very difficult for them to
break in and that's where we need to have more
positions and the n c A is looking at that
right now that we can have sort of a fellowship
(30:17):
of being able to take a w NBA player on
our staff, train them see if the coaching is something
that they would want to do or be good at.
And I think that's a good way to start. And
how can you or how do you foster leadership skills
and coaches that are coming up through the ranks as
they're kind of a mentor program to get even more
women in the pipeline. And we have we have some
(30:39):
programs in our Coaches Association, but I think it's up
to really the head coach looking at her players that
we have to be mentors for them and what they
see at practice. And I have to be a mentor
for my staff. I want them to be head coaches.
I've recently had an assistant coach go over to the
NBA and she's with them Memphis Grizzlies. Now, ne l
i v Um going to be one of the great
coaches coming into UH into college if she chooses to
(31:02):
come back here, and so I think we need more
of that. I think the NBA is right ahead of
the curve. They're hiring a lot of women. I think
there's maybe ten or eleven women in the NBA right
now that are getting great experience. Becky Hammond had to
take over a game, the first woman to coach an
NBA team because Papovich either got tossed or or was
not available for the game. So I think we're making strategy.
(31:23):
Saw in the Super Bowl female assistant on San Francisco.
I think it's it's coming. It's just so slow, but
but we are seeing some change, and I guess we
have to celebrate that and do whatever we can to
to feel more change in the future. I'd just like
to see more women stepping up and using their voice
and looking to hire and empower women. Prepared me to
(31:47):
be a leader by challenging me. She was a great leader,
but she led by example. She was so passionate, so
hard working. I really looked up to her her advice.
She's always taught her student athletes how to be strong
women and how to use our voice. That's Neil Ivy,
an assistant coach at the Memphis Grizzlies, one of only
nine female coaches in the m b A. I love you,
(32:10):
um from the bottom of my heart, and I appreciate
you helping me become the woman that I am. I
think that, um, I've learned the right way to live. UM.
I think I've learned the right way to coach and
the right way to um to just be a human being.
Before we go. For anyone out there wanting to step
up to become a Muffett McGraw or a Carla Williams,
(32:34):
here's some advice from a pro. Always do more than
what's expected of you. Do more, do extra, UM, And
that has helped me, you know, as a student athlete,
whether it's in the gym getting up more shots, are
in the weight room a little bit longer, or as
a coach, staying at the gym to recruit and see
(32:55):
more players when your colleagues have already left. Um, it's
just do is doing extra just doing more, going the
extra mile to learn more and to do more. Um,
you know is something I always give. And then at work,
just work, work, work, work. You don't work twenty four
hours a day, but when you are working, make sure
(33:18):
that you are working really hard. Um and smart. That's
it for this week's episode, I'd like to give us
special thanks to Muffett's former Notre Dame players Beth Cunningham,
Sarah Leivescher, Melissa lect Lightner, Karen Keyes and Nelle I
(33:40):
v and go Irish even though I went to u
v A. By the way, you can subscribe to Next
Question and listen to all of our episodes on Apple Podcasts,
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(34:02):
I don't want to feel totally overwhelmed. Sign up for
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Until next time and my Next Question, I'm Katie Kurik.
Thanks so much for listening. Next Question with Katie Couric
(34:23):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media.
The executive producers are Katie Couric, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.
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(34:44):
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For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next Question
on today's episode. I knew from the first time I
picked up the ball this was something I wanted to
do the rest of my life. Just in time for
March Madness, I sit down with Muffett McGraw, head coach
of the Notre Dame women's basketball team. Muffett is one
of the winningess coaches in the history of the sport,
(00:22):
one of just five coaches in men or women's Division
one basketball with more than nine hundred and twenty career wins.
She's led the Fighting Irish to the Final four an
impressive nine times and has taken home the national championship
titled twice, most recently and memorably in two thousand eighteen,
(00:42):
when Notre Dame one with a heart thumping buzzer beater
hon Jennifer j Seventeen years to the day, the Notre
Dame party as Hall of Famer. Muffett McGraw is now
(01:06):
in her thirty third season at Notre Dame, but she's
always been an outspoken advocate for women in sports. In fact,
during the n C Double A Final four last year,
her impassioned press conference about the need for more women
leaders went viral. We don't have enough female role models,
we don't have enough visible women leaders, We don't have
enough women in power. Girls are socialized to know when
(01:29):
they come out, generals are already set. Men run the world.
Men have the power, Men make the decisions. But wouldn't
it be great if we could teach them to watch
how women lead. When you look at men's basketball and
the jobs go to men, why shouldn't one of the
jobs and women's basketball go to women? Right now? Few
(01:53):
women sit at the top of the college athletics food chain.
If you look at one of the most powerful jobs
at athletic director, only ten percent of them nationwide are
women today, though you'll meet one of them. Growing up
in the industry, there were that many um female role
models in key decision making positions in athletics. Carla Williams
(02:17):
made history in two thousand seventeen when she became the
University of Virginia's athletic director, the first African American woman
to lead athletics at one of the Power five Conference schools,
the highest most competitive level of college sports. As ironic
as it is, most of my mentors athletic director mentors
(02:40):
are men. Later, Carla tells us what it's been like
being a pioneer in this male dominated field. But first,
Muffatt McCraw on what's behind the lack of diversity in
college sports and how she forged her own path. So
my next question in college sports, when are women like
(03:00):
Carla Williams and Muffett McGraw going to be the rule
not the exception. If there's any indication of how good
a leader Muffett McGraw really is, just look to what
her players go on to accomplish. A Women's Basketball Hall
of Famer, two Olympians, twenty two All Americans, and twenty
(03:23):
two current or former w NBA players, not to mention
a number of coaches at the professional and college level.
This is Beth Cunningham. I played for coach mraw, graduated
in nine and I'm also in my eighth year coaching
alongside her at the University of Notre Dame. Beth Cunningham
(03:43):
is Notre Dame's associate head coach. She's one of a
few former players we asked to talk about how Muffett
shaped their lives on and off the court. She has
taught me how to be a confident leader and how
to lead. She's taught me the importance of doing things
the right way, not necessarily the easiest way, but the
(04:05):
right way. Mamma has taught me how as a woman
to go after what I want from life, so to
speak up for myself and other women at all opportunities.
That's Sarah leive Shirt, another former Muffett McGraw player and
one of the Originals Class of Sarah is now the
(04:25):
director of Athletics Advancement at Notre Dame. She taught me
how to be resilient in the face of adversity, how
to work harder than my mind and body thought capable,
and ultimately that to strive to be as good as
a man is to underachieved. Over the course of her
forty plus year career, Muffett has had the chance to
(04:47):
influence a lot of young women, but she says she
never really set out to become a role model. I
don't think I went into it thinking I'm going to
be able to mold these young women, and I'm going
to be able to teach these women something about um
how they can step up and use their voice. You know.
I don't think it was anything like that it was
all about just the game, and that love of the
game goes way back to her days as a little
(05:08):
girl playing on the neighborhood courts in a Philadelphia suburb.
Growing up in that time, no social media, there was,
you know, really you left the house, your mom didn't
know exactly where you were, and it was always I
was down at the playground, Me and nine guys down
at the playground. And you know, sports was always sort
of a meritocracy. If you can earn it, if you
(05:29):
have the ability, you're gonna get in the game. So
I was fortunate that I was able to get in
the game and nobody ever look twice at me. Muffett
started playing basketball well before Title nine was passed in
ninety two. That law, you might recall, was part of
a sweeping set of education amendments that made it illegal
for any institution receiving federal funding to discriminate on the
(05:52):
basis of sex. That met Schools at every level, from
elementary to college were expected to provide equal opportunities to
their male and female students, both in the classroom and
in the gym. And it was lucky for Muffett back then,
her Catholic high school was surprisingly progressive. Hard to believe,
as this is the Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia
(06:15):
was way ahead of Title nine. So girls were playing
basketball in the leads and I know in the sixties.
I'm not even sure if it was before that, but
way before Title nine came out in the early seventies,
they had teams for girls. But the program did have
its limitations. When I was playing in the early seventies,
we were playing six on six at that time, which
was horrible and not even a real game of basketball.
(06:36):
It started out three on three at each end, then
it graduated two two at each end, with rovers going
back and forth, and then finally in high school we
got back to five on five, but we still had
to do it while wearing a skirt. Oh, that's so funny.
That must have been kind of awkward at times. Oh
my god, let's not forget our femininity as uh, you know,
childbirth is a pain free experience, but running up and
(06:57):
down a basketball court, boy, that's that's something we're not
ready for. That's so funny. Well, it's nice to get
the Catholic Church a little bit of credit for being progressive,
at least in that arena, right, Yeah, for women, that's
very unusual for them. Yeah. So meanwhile, you played basketball
at St. Joseph's University and women's varsity basketball was pretty
much brand new there. What was it like back then
(07:20):
to play at the college level or did you feel
like you were, you know, very well prepared for that
given your high school experience. Well, it was the first
year it was a sport at St. Joe's, first year
returned varsity, so I was thrilled just to be a
part of it. There were no athletic scholarships. You paid
your own way, We did our own laundry, We we
drove ourselves to games. That was completely unlike what's going
(07:42):
on now and and completely different from what the men
were going through. We used to sit on the sidelines
and wait for them to finish practice, and they would
practice for as long as they wanted, whenever they wanted,
and we would just wait patiently, waiting on the side
until they finished. And it sounds like the Muffett sounds
like the guys were real jerks. They could be. I mean,
they thought very highly of themselves in their programs and
(08:04):
not very highly of you all, and kind of I
think you know, sort of dismissed your desire to play. Yeah,
I think I think they absolutely did that. And you know, socially,
it wasn't that accepted at that time for women to
be playing sports. So we had to fight against a
lot of stereotypes and we didn't have a lot of advantages.
But we just we played for love of the game,
(08:25):
and that's that's all we cared about, was that we
love what we're doing. But how did you start to
kind of develop your leadership skills? You know? I think
it started way back when I was playing at the
playground down there with the nine guys. I think that
some of the things that you learn. There's so many
great lessons that sports teaches you about work ethic and
sacrifice and being a team player and and understanding your role.
(08:47):
A little self awareness is always good. But the thing
I learned from playing down at the playground, there's no supervision,
there's no referees, So you learned conflict resolution. You learn
that you have to stand up for yourself. Um know,
the ball was in or out? Who hit it out?
Did I get fouled? And you start to learn how
people look at each other and if you're the kind
(09:08):
of guy that is calling a foul every time you
miss a shot. You find out that people don't want
you on their team anymore. They're not going to enjoy
playing with you. So I think you kind of learn
a lot about personalities, how you can talk to some
people a little differently than others. But I think the
thing that fascinates me about leadership is how different so
many leaders are and they can all be successful. There's introverts,
there's extroverts. Uh, there's people that listen a little bit more,
(09:29):
there's people that talk a little bit more. But I
think the biggest thing is leading by example. Is is
something that I always tell my team that's expected, that
that's that's something that you have to do. That's not leadership.
Leadership is not being afraid to use your voice, and
especially as a woman um starting out with not a
lot of people supporting us, you had to be able
(09:50):
to go out and really understand that this is what
I want, this is what I'm gonna say, and you
can't think that much about what other people are going
to say about it. What made you decide to give
coaching a try? Well, I graduated from St. Joe's. I
was a sociology criminal justice major, and I just really
wanted to save the world, and I had no idea
what that meant sociology. Not a lot of jobs really
(10:12):
out there in the local high school. Job opened, and
so I thought, yeah, I'll give it a try. I
wanted to stay in basketball, but there was wasn't the
opportunity to play professionally, so I took the job at
Archbishop Carol. In my first practice, I was just completely
consumed and knew this, this is definitely a passion that
I'm going to pursue. You know. It was all about
(10:32):
offense and defense, and I just I love puzzles. I
loved just kind of doodling on napkins and watching games.
And of course we don't have any female role models
back then, so I'd watch the NBA, I look at
things that they were doing and try to bring that
back to the women's side. I know that you had
a short lived stint at the Women's Professional Basketball Association,
(10:52):
and I'm curious what that was like for you, because
that was a precursor to the w n b A.
That was exciting for me. It was nineteen eighty I
played in California and mar team with the California Dreams.
So my husband got to wear a shirt that said
my wife is a dream and we would, uh, we
would go to the arena and we could count the
number of people there during the national anthem and probably
(11:14):
named most of them. Um. So it didn't get quite
the attention. The league eventually folded because of financial problems.
My contract was for eleven thousand dollars and I thought
it was the greatest thing ever, And you know, I
knew it was going to be a difficult thing to start.
But we've gone a long way obviously since then. I mean,
things have grown tremendously and I think they're getting better
now with Kathy Engelbert in charge of the w n
(11:34):
b A, but we still have such a long way
to go. What were some of the challenges back then
to kind of get women's professional basketball to a place
where people were supportive. I think the first thing was
just having some media attention and right now and I
think even today, I think we get about four percent
of media attention across all of um, you know, through
(11:57):
ESPN or newspapers or whatever kind of if there's news
out there anymore, we we just don't get any attention
people didn't even know we had a league, and I
think there's still some people that are unsure about the
w n b A. So I think we need to
have a little more better marketing advertising. It's a great product.
I think people have to come out and see it
and they'll get hooked on it. It's happening in college.
(12:17):
I think attendance has grown over the years. I think
people are getting more excited about it. We're getting a
little more exposure. I think we're on TV quite a bit,
and I think that's really helping us. But we just
have so much further to go when you look at
what's happening on the men's side, and and nobody wants
the w n b A where thinks they should be
comparable to the NBA. Not not yet, um, but I
think that we need to make some strides. And you
(12:38):
see what the soccer team is doing suing for equal pay.
I was going to ask you about that muffet about
how if there's kind of, gosh, a ripple effect with
what you see going on in women's soccer, and if
that's reaching other women's sports and kind of you know,
a rising tide lifting all boats idea. Yeah, that's that's
(13:00):
what we're hoping. And I think there's a couple of
other sports. I think there's a women's ice hockey is
trying to do the same thing. I think women's tennis
has probably done the best job. Women's golf is still
struggling with that. Um, I think all women's sports, and
I think just we we just have to change the
attitude of how we're looked at. I was gonna say
media attention is one thing, and obviously, you know they're
(13:20):
kind of inextricably linked attitudes and and impressions and media exposure.
But but how much of it is just, you know,
gender stereotypes that started when we were you and I
were young, and that still exists in so much of
the population today. I think most of it still comes
(13:42):
from that, just from the way you're raised. I think
when you look at the way people raise their sons
and their daughters, and you look at the differences and
how they talk to them, what they compliment them for. Um,
I think we're so busy telling our daughters how pretty
they are, and we never tell them how smart they are.
Trying to say that all the time to my daughters.
I have two girls and you know, I really stop myself,
(14:03):
even if I think they look prettier, I like their
dress or their outfit or whatever. When they were growing
up there now twenty eight and twenty four, but I
always say, you know, you're so smarter, you tried so hard.
Now they're saying that girls and boys should be should
be complimented for their grit and their effort. Um that
that that really is is much more helpful, obviously than
(14:27):
even saying you're smart. It's saying, wow, you really tried hard,
you really worked hard, and that's that's great. I think
that's so important because so often you see parents, especially
at sporting events. You know, they want their their child
to be the best. They want them to shoot more,
they want them to do more, they want them to
play more. If if they don't, it's the coach's fault. Um,
(14:47):
So I don't think they have the right perspective instead
of looking at it and saying, well, you know, look
at I love the way your teammates react to you
when when you say something, everybody's listening. I think you're
a really good leader. I think you're a great teammate.
You effort today was terrific. I saw you dive in
for loose balls. I saw you hustling really hard, and
everybody really appreciated that effort and things that you really
can look at and say, this is important, and then
(15:10):
they start to know that it's it's not about how
many points you scored. Um, it's really about the way
you play the game. Hi, this is Melissa leack Lightner,
a class of two thousand and ten. I played point
guard for coach Murraw, which everybody knows is her favorite
position on the floor. Melissa leack Lightner is the regional
director of Notre Dame Athletics Advancement, a department that focuses
(15:32):
on outreach and fundraising. Coach probably doesn't even realize the
ways that she impacts her players lives. Obviously, she challenged
us mentally and physically day in and day out, but
she always made you feel and believe that you are
so much more than basketball. She has helped me grow
into the woman that I am personally and professionally. She
(15:53):
really just empowers you to be your authentic self. And
she's always a phone call away, meeting a lunch. You know,
if you need advice or support, I would not be
who I am or where I am today without coach
and Notre Dame, I also probably wouldn't be as paranoid
about showing up on time and so afraid of being
(16:15):
late without her when we come back, Muffett explains why
the law that was supposed to change everything still hasn't
fixed the massive gender gap in sports leadership. Muffatt McCraw
(16:41):
was named head coach of Notre Dame's women's basketball back
in fifteen years after Title nine was enacted, and while
the number of female athletes at the college level has
skyrocketed since then, the equal resources part of the law
isn't necessarily being addressed. Title nine was the best thing
for women ever. I mean, we went from about two
(17:02):
hundred thousand girls playing sports to two million. Um. It
was just a great thing for women, giving the opportunities
and seeing how much they wanted those opportunities. But it
really didn't take effect. I think for years and years.
I'm still wondering if if it's taken effect even now.
And why do you think that's the case. You know,
I think that there's a couple of there was three
(17:25):
prongs to Title nine that you had to come up
with as a university, and and I think they were
pretty easy to say, yes, we've given them opportunities. Um,
you know, whatever they're looking for, we've satisfied this. But
what is the emotional part? You know, it was the support,
financial support that we didn't have. You know, the men
or flying places were taken a bus. There's you know,
(17:46):
eating at nice places were at McDonald's and so there
was just a lot of things. I think that emotional
support as a whole laundry list of things that you
want to look at and say it's equal, but you know,
it really isn't the attention that we're getting. You know,
when are we playing our games as opposed to one
they're playing their games. Um, there's just so many things
you have to look at. So de facto discrimination kind
of lived on. Yeah, I think most schools willingly added
(18:09):
sports and did whatever they could, but it was financially
it was difficult, and I think a lot of people thought,
if you're gonna add women sports, you're gonna have to
cut men's sports. And that was not exactly what happened.
That was not ever intended to happen, and I think
people use that as an excuse. So instead of just
adding and we need more money, We're gonna have to
make more money to be able to support these sports
(18:29):
instead of cutting men's sports. So it was a great
idea in theory, but in practice it really did take
a many many years to go into effect, and some
might argue it still hasn't fully leveled the playing field,
so to speak. No, it really hasn't. I think it
has come a long way, though, And I think that
when we started out, you know, coaches, maybe more were women.
(18:53):
So everybody coaching a women's team was a woman who
had been a pioneer and started out playing back before
Title nine. And I think a lot of women thought, well,
when we have a good program, when I'm winning enough,
when I'm in a position where i can talk more,
And I would look at that and say, if I'm
not fighting for my team, what are they going to think?
How am I representing them? How am I teaching them anything?
(19:14):
So we started to fight a little bit more for
just facilities and travel and assistant coaches salaries and so
many different things. And I think that women have to
fight for themselves because unfortunately, not many people are fighting
for us. It was very depressing preparing for this interview.
I learned that two years after Title nine became law,
(19:36):
of women's teams and college sports had female coaches, but
today that number is just under forty two percent. What
the heck is going on? Well, what happened was eventually
the salaries grew and I think we got to a
point and this wasn't until probably late in the nineties
that coaching women's basketball actually became something that was worthwhile
as a in terms of financially, and so you saw
(19:59):
a lot of men coming over into our game. They
either couldn't get a job on the men's side, they
was it was too much dues paying, they had to
wait too long to have that opportunity. But if they
went on the women's side, they could walk in and
be a head coach a lot sooner than they could
on the men's side. And so a lot of the
jobs turned into obviously men men coaching on the women's side,
(20:19):
and so they had so many more opportunities than women
because they could coach on on either side. And the
problem also was the athletic directors, mostly white men, are
going to hire people who look like them, and I
think men have a very different way of networking of
applying for jobs, of promoting themselves that women just don't do.
And I think that it was easy. And they go
and talk to the men's coach and say, what do
(20:40):
you think about this guy? Do you think he could
take over the women's team, And and that's pretty much
how it got started. You know, if I hear another
story about a man failing up, I'm gonna like slip
my wrist. I mean, every day I hear about somebody
with some job and I'm like, what, wait a second,
I thought they really screwed up. And then for women,
you have the glass cliff. You know, once they get
(21:01):
into a leadership position, if you know it, it doesn't
go perfectly. You know, Sayanara exactly. And that's we see
it on in sports or not. You see recycled coaches.
They get fired from one job, they move on to another.
But when it happens to a woman, it's very, very
difficult for them to come back and to get another job.
(21:21):
And I think that one of the big problems is
a lot of athletic directors and people in general look
and say, well, we tried a woman, it didn't work,
so now we're going back to hiring a guy. As
if that one woman represented our entire gender, and they
couldn't say it just didn't work out with that particular woman,
which is what they say when a guy fails. It's
interesting because I know the NFL had the Rooney Rule
(21:42):
and when it came to looking at coaches for every
white man they had to look at a person of
color for coaching or management jobs. But I don't know
how well that's worked, do you It's not it's not working.
I just read an article recently too, what what happened?
What's wrong? I think approach. I think they're interviewing, but
(22:03):
they're not hiring, and I think that they're kind of
moving the the idea of this is what you need
to do this. You have to be an offensive coordinator,
you have to call the plays, you have to do
this with that, and so then then uh men are
promoted to that job and then they say, now you
know what, Now we're gonna say this is what you need.
So they're constantly kind of moving the line um and
it's unfortunate. And it happens in college sports as well.
(22:25):
I think the diversity at the college level in women's
basketball is not nearly what it should be. When you
look at the tremendous amount of great athletes that we
have in our programs. I don't think the coaching staffs
represent those players. There is truly so much to Muffett,
and having known her for thirty three years as a
member of her first class notre name, I'm just one
(22:46):
of the hundreds of people she's touched and impacted profoundly.
Karen Keys has had an impressive career in sports, a
year of professional play, coaching at the D one level,
broadcast reporter, and now the coach of her former high
school back basketball team in New Jersey. I would describe
her as authentic, genuine, candid, straightforward, even blunt. But some
(23:09):
of that directness is the reason why she's such an
effective communicator as a coach. Whenever a Muffett told you
something that you might not want to hear, deep in
your heart, you knew it was what you needed the year,
and it might not all be comfortable and nice, but
in the long run, she always had your best interest
in mind as a player and person. When we come back,
(23:31):
I'll talk with a game changing athletic director who has
more than a few ideas about how to level the
playing field. It's often said if you can't see it,
you can't be it, and for a lot of young
(23:52):
female athletes, they're still not seeing themselves at the top.
Carla Williams is helping to break that mold. As I mentioned,
she's the athletic director at u v A, my alma mater,
wa Hua. Carlos says that plane sports gave her the
tools to get this far. I do believe that sports
(24:12):
is a great equalizer. I do believe that sports brings
people together, whether it's teammates or fans, um cheering for
their team, coming from all different walks of life and
being able to participate in sports has opened so many
doors for so many young people that may not have
(24:33):
had the opportunity to go to college. I'm one of them,
and so sports participation needs to be something that is
available to any kid that wants to play. And I
just think that's very basically fundamental because that opens the
door to all of those other benefits, so teamwork, hard work,
(24:55):
time management, um, learning how to play with others, perseverance.
Carlo has been a involved in every aspect of Division
one sports. She played, she coached, and then she became
an administrator, which is where she believes she can have
the most impact. In fact, today she's one of only
four female athletic directors at Power five institutions. There were
(25:18):
five of us when I became a D at Virginia,
and now there are four, and and so I don't
it's hard to to really have a good sense of
how that's going to change in a year, two years,
three years, or five ten years. It's just really hard
to gauge it. Of course, with great power comes great
(25:41):
responsibility and the pressure not to fail. Carla does what
she can for others, but also argues that the burden
to change the system should not rest solely on women
and people of color. I take seriously the opportunity to
mentor I do try to have fall conversations, emails and
(26:02):
meet with people who want to learn more and grow
in the profession. But at the same time I have
to do my job because I do realize that a
lot of people are, you know, excited and happy that
this opportunity uh existed for me, and so I do
understand what it means to a lot of people that
that aspire to this. I also understand that it could
(26:26):
be a burden also because my failure means a lot
as well, and so I can't fail, um, you know.
And so that puts uh, that's a that is a
difficult challenge. UM. And also I don't you know, creating
a diverse workforce is not always the responsibility of the
(26:52):
for the people of color, you know. And so I
try to do my best. But if I allow myself
to be the person responsible for making sure that African
American women can become athletic directors, then I won't be
an athletic director for very long. And so I really
(27:15):
think it should be a shared responsibility for me. I
had some great UM role models who were athletic directors,
and they were willing to include me in meetings, UM,
in decision making conversations that were you know, critical decision
making conversations, key decision making conversations. That is one way
(27:41):
to really help women gain more experience and be in
the room so that we can be a part of
that discussion. I think athletic directors who are willing to
be inclusive in a substantive way, UM. And that's really
the only way to do it, because it just cannot
(28:02):
be a superficial, check the box kind of position. It
really needs to be you know, engaged in real discussions,
and then of course presidents and chancellers that aren't afraid
to only look at the qualifications when hiring for athletic
director positions. I think sometimes you know it's it's you're comfortable,
(28:25):
you know, hiring people that you're comfortable with, and so
that oftentimes excludes women for sure from those opportunities. Carlos is,
diversity is key at all levels of college athletics. It's
better for players, it's better for universities, and it's better
for the game. Having a diverse set of opinions and
(28:50):
experiences and thoughts to help make the right decision is
really really important. And it's it's almost like you can't
you shouldn't have a star warting five that are all centers,
because you know that may not work. You don't have
your ball handler, you don't have your perimeter shooter, you know.
(29:10):
So their strength in um having a balanced team in sports.
So that's a given in sports, and so to me,
I see it the same in administration. Their strength to
having balance and to having diversity because you allow yourself
to hear different opinions and different experiences to make sure
(29:34):
that we're considering that we're we're making an informed decision,
and if everyone thinks like me, then I'm not so
sure that we're making a completely informed decision. And so
that's why I do That's why I think their strength
and diversity. Matham McGraw agrees that diversity is something everyone
(29:57):
needs to be working towards. I think every coach in
the country as to look and say, how can I
support women? How can I hire more women? There's so
many talented women out there in the w n b
A when they want to get out and start coaching,
where is their opportunity. It's very difficult for them to
break in and that's where we need to have more
positions and the n c A is looking at that
right now that we can have sort of a fellowship
(30:17):
of being able to take a w NBA player on
our staff, train them see if the coaching is something
that they would want to do or be good at.
And I think that's a good way to start. And
how can you or how do you foster leadership skills
and coaches that are coming up through the ranks as
they're kind of a mentor program to get even more
women in the pipeline. And we have we have some
(30:39):
programs in our Coaches Association, but I think it's up
to really the head coach looking at her players that
we have to be mentors for them and what they
see at practice. And I have to be a mentor
for my staff. I want them to be head coaches.
I've recently had an assistant coach go over to the
NBA and she's with them Memphis Grizzlies. Now, ne l
i v Um going to be one of the great
coaches coming into UH into college if she chooses to
(31:02):
come back here, and so I think we need more
of that. I think the NBA is right ahead of
the curve. They're hiring a lot of women. I think
there's maybe ten or eleven women in the NBA right
now that are getting great experience. Becky Hammond had to
take over a game, the first woman to coach an
NBA team because Papovich either got tossed or or was
not available for the game. So I think we're making strategy.
(31:23):
Saw in the Super Bowl female assistant on San Francisco.
I think it's it's coming. It's just so slow, but
but we are seeing some change, and I guess we
have to celebrate that and do whatever we can to
to feel more change in the future. I'd just like
to see more women stepping up and using their voice
and looking to hire and empower women. Prepared me to
(31:47):
be a leader by challenging me. She was a great leader,
but she led by example. She was so passionate, so
hard working. I really looked up to her her advice.
She's always taught her student athletes how to be strong
women and how to use our voice. That's Neil Ivy,
an assistant coach at the Memphis Grizzlies, one of only
nine female coaches in the m b A. I love you,
(32:10):
um from the bottom of my heart, and I appreciate
you helping me become the woman that I am. I
think that, um, I've learned the right way to live. UM.
I think I've learned the right way to coach and
the right way to um to just be a human being.
Before we go. For anyone out there wanting to step
up to become a Muffett McGraw or a Carla Williams,
(32:34):
here's some advice from a pro. Always do more than
what's expected of you. Do more, do extra, UM, And
that has helped me, you know, as a student athlete,
whether it's in the gym getting up more shots, are
in the weight room a little bit longer, or as
a coach, staying at the gym to recruit and see
(32:55):
more players when your colleagues have already left. Um, it's
just do is doing extra just doing more, going the
extra mile to learn more and to do more. Um,
you know is something I always give. And then at work,
just work, work, work, work. You don't work twenty four
hours a day, but when you are working, make sure
(33:18):
that you are working really hard. Um and smart. That's
it for this week's episode, I'd like to give us
special thanks to Muffett's former Notre Dame players Beth Cunningham,
Sarah Leivescher, Melissa lect Lightner, Karen Keyes and Nelle I
(33:40):
v and go Irish even though I went to u
v A. By the way, you can subscribe to Next
Question and listen to all of our episodes on Apple Podcasts,
the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your
favorite shows, and you can keep up with me on Facebook, Twitter,
Instagram and all the rest. Meanwhile, if you're looking for
a little guidance on what's happening in the world, and
(34:02):
I don't want to feel totally overwhelmed. Sign up for
my daily newsletter. It's called Wake Up Paul and you
can get it by going to Katie Curik dot com.
Until next time and my Next Question, I'm Katie Kurik.
Thanks so much for listening. Next Question with Katie Couric
(34:23):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media.
The executive producers are Katie Couric, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is
Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens.
Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell Berlante, Mixing
(34:44):
by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more
information on today's episode, go to Katie Couric dot com
and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Kurik.
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Host
Katie Couric
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