June 9, 2024 • 11 mins
Shane Jones says oil and gas exploration is necessary to deal with energy security issues, as natural gas reserves rapidly decline.
The Government is reversing the oil and gas exploration ban, beyond onshore Taranaki.
It comes after around 20,000 people marched in Central Auckland yesterday, to protest the Fast Track Approvals Bill.
Resources Minister Shane Jones says about 20 percent of all our energy needs are related to gas.
"Because of the chilling effect of Jacinda Ardern's announcement in 2018, we're relying progressively more on Indonesian coal."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
d BE.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Jane Jones announced today that the government will reverse it's
ban on oil and gas exploration. He said that New
Zealand's natural gas reserves were declining in sustainable sources like wind,
solar and hydro were too inconsistent. This announcement and others
was anticipated, I guess you could say, and also met
with a backlash yesterday as thousands of people gathered in
(00:30):
Central Auckland to protest the Fast Track Approvals Bill, among
other things. The protesters included former Green Party co leader
Russell Norman I think, head of works at Greenpeace now.
But for those not up to date, the government's Fast
Track Approvals legislation, as part of the Coalitions Get Things
Done Agenda, aim to shortcut the consenting process for big
projects like roads, mines and wind farms and it gives
(00:54):
the Infrastructure, Transport and Resources ministers pretty large powers on
those big projects. And of course we've got the announcement
today of the reverse over the oil and gas ban
and joining me to us that as a minister it
is how a second just ticking about nia Shane Jones,
Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Hey, Mayka, greetings for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
How important is this band reversal on oil and gas?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, about twenty percent of all our energy needs are
related to gas. As gas declines in New Zealand because
of the chilling effect of Ja Cinder Durn's announcement in
twenty eighteen, we're relying progressively more on Indonesian coal. So
it was a perverse outcome, and I think it speaks
(01:39):
to the sort of juvenile, shallow green thinking that we
can somehow create a better trajectory forward to decarbonization without
actually future proofing our energy resilience.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
What did you make of the protest yesterday, thousands of
people turning up in Auckland. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, I have to respect the fact that kiwis of
all stripes sizes, they're able to come out and make
their feelings and their priorities known to the government. But
there's five million New Zealanders who want to keep the
lights on, who want to keep jobs in New Zealand,
who who along with me, believe that New Zealand is
an environmental Eden of garden. So environmental garden of Edenah. Yeah,
(02:27):
this notion make that we're living within some sort of
climatic purgatory. I resent it, and it's sort of spread
around by the Green sisterhood and I don't like it
at all.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
How do you balance? I mean, is there anything you
can offer? See some pretty dramatic signs talking about the
corruption of ministers and lack of transparency and not being democratic.
Is there anything that you and the government can offer
the protesters which might assuage their worries.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, I'm hoping the Select Committee will come back with
some sensible suggestions. But you know, when big projects, I
recall there being a project in two thousand and five
that was going to go ahead down around Teams and
it was going to be state of the art wood
processing facility, and then some judge long since passed away,
felt that the glint of the roof would interfere with
(03:19):
the amenity values of people climbing a local ridgeline. I mean,
who is that unelected grandee to make that decision that
has such a negative impact on industry and regional development.
Those decisions, I think, if they're a great scale, they
can be safely made by politicians. And if you don't
like it, vot us out.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Your press release. Obviously we're aware of their decline and
investment obviously in oil and gas, which happens of following
a band obviously, And here are some comments from the
protest Russell Norman saying there will be no sea bed
mining off the coast of Taranaki, there will be no
new coal mines in pristine native forest. We will stop them,
(04:02):
just like we stopped the oil exploration companies. We disrupted
them until they gave up. Are you concerned that that
sort of rhetoric and what we've seen with protests in
the past disrupting the legal activities of a business or
they would argue otherwise, are concerned on that effect on it?
(04:22):
Getting investors back into the market.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Made us key weis were at an inflection point. We're
either going to surrender to this green unelected rebel, or
we're going to turbocharge our economy to generate the jobs,
generate the economic dividend, to maintain our first world quality
of life. The more I hear from these green benshees,
(04:50):
the more I fear that they're driving us towards a
Venezuelan slope that will have disastrous impacts on New Zealand
as a destination or international investment or the confidence to
create more domestic ve who mandated this group of Green
Bloodites to enjoy a moral superior position that is beyond
(05:18):
the Kiwis that voted for the current government. We derive
our legitatamy legitimacy. We derive our moral strength from the
fact that we took our ideas into the hearts and
minds and homes of Kiwis and they gave us the
democratic right to run the country. They didn't give the
democratic right to the Green people. They didn't give it
to Freddy the Frog, They didn't give it to the
(05:41):
small screen personalities, Lucy Laws and others who did their
best work in the nineteen nineties. No, they gave it
to the elected government, and we're going to get on
with governing the country.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
For the protesters, who, of course, protest groups are a
diverse bunch, and there are a lot of New Zealanders
who are just concerned with well a perceived lack of
possible transparency or just the shortcuts that are enabled by
the fast Track Bill. Is there anything that you are
thinking about in respect of the fast Track Bill where
you might think, well, hang on, here are a couple
(06:13):
of concessions we can offer for those who are worried
about just you know, the slash and burn, whiplash decisions
by some ministers.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well, I'm sure the Select Committee will come back with
some suggestions that does improve the bill. I don't want
to cut across them, but make don't underestimate how die
our economic situation is. Don't underestimate the large number of
Kiwis that are decamping to Australia. Don't underestimate the damage
(06:42):
that was done to our international reputation by that juvenile, shallow,
facile decision that Justsinda announced getting rid of oil and
gas and now we're reduced to using Indonesian coal. Of
all the things that Megan Woods and Jacinda thought that
they were doing, they have ended up visiting upon New
(07:03):
Zealand the worst possible outcome. I mean, the coal's even
worse than what we've got in New Zealand. But of
course we don't don't use our own coal and New
Zealand because the statutes have been stacked against coal exploration.
Lets something else I look forward to boosting.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Is it possible to have constructive dialogue with some of
the protest group. What do you do you sense that
regard us? What you do you are the devil?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, you just describe the rhetoric to me from Russell
Norman which has Venezuelan in character. I mean, how do
I rationally engage with that? If I've got someone who's
threatening Kiwi firms and overseas firms. We destroyed your confidence once,
we'll do it again. Well, where do you get your
mandate from? And I look forward to matching them blow
(07:47):
for blow, hyperbole for hyperbole, because I believe that Kiwi's
garden variety. Kiwis are on the side of us delivering
and getting things done in our country.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what are the projects for you that are just
crying out for the fast track? What's top of your list?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I'd like to see us proceed sooner rather than later
with a dry dock facility up in Marsden Point. I
certainly want to see more energy investments. I think the
scope for more hydroelectricity in New Zealand. I think that
in some areas we should be boosting mining, and certainly
(08:23):
we should see more mining on Stewardship Land which is
falsely identified as dock land, because we need the rare
earth minerals. I mean, why is it more morally tolerable
to bring them in from other countries that have a
lesser environmental standard, a lesser work safety, child labor standard.
In New Zealand. I mean, it's almost like you've got
(08:44):
this fantasy world where people quietly hold their breath whilst
we bring these minerals in from another part of the world,
undermining our resilience. Like I said to you, New Zealand
is a Garden of Eden. We're not some climate purgatory
put around by the Greg Systehood. We're going to get
over that false immediately.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
In terms of once we do get some of these
projects fast tracked, and let's just think of not just
the fast tracks, sorry, the oil and gas. I mean,
are you are you worried that they are actually going
to be disrupted because protesters can have got ways of
making nuisances themselves and stopping things go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
What's right, Well, you're yeah, I mean you are accurate
in the sense that Lucy and the others did scale
various cranes or I don't know parts of the superstructure
of oil and gas, and there's no guarantee they won't
entirely unlikely she'll be climbing anywhere in a hurry, but yeah.
I mean they are fomenting that level of discord and
(09:46):
it's disappointing. But unless we have gas at a reliable
level and accessible until twenty fifty, the lights are not
going to stay on in New Zealand. That will bring
a government down. That is what these people are on about.
They're not protesting for the environment. They're recruiting for the
(10:07):
Green Party, and everything that they're doing is driven to
undermine the published confidence in our government. And I'm going
to meet them blow for blow.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And is that effectively what you would say if you
were in front of one of those rallies.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Look, I was invited to go to the annual General
meeting of the Environmental Defense Society and I'm gladly have gone.
No one would have listened to me, so I've ended
up giving I've ended up giving a pre record because
sadly I'm going to be elsewhere. But I don't want
any one of your listeners feeling that these views I'm
sharing with you, I'm afraid or I'm intimidated to share
(10:44):
them with any group of New Zealanders. We have got
to settle this debate. Either we're going to maintain our
economy with some hard headed decisions that gives us resilience,
or we're going to try and keep the lights on
with unicorn kisses and the letter's never going to work.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Okay, Shane, thanks very much for your time this after
and I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Get there by bye.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Oh that's Shane Jones, Minister for Well. He's Minister for
Regional Development, Resources and Oceans and Fisheries.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
d BE.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Jane Jones announced today that the government will reverse it's
ban on oil and gas exploration. He said that New
Zealand's natural gas reserves were declining in sustainable sources like wind,
solar and hydro were too inconsistent. This announcement and others
was anticipated, I guess you could say, and also met
with a backlash yesterday as thousands of people gathered in
(00:30):
Central Auckland to protest the Fast Track Approvals Bill, among
other things. The protesters included former Green Party co leader
Russell Norman I think, head of works at Greenpeace now.
But for those not up to date, the government's Fast
Track Approvals legislation, as part of the Coalitions Get Things
Done Agenda, aim to shortcut the consenting process for big
projects like roads, mines and wind farms and it gives
(00:54):
the Infrastructure, Transport and Resources ministers pretty large powers on
those big projects. And of course we've got the announcement
today of the reverse over the oil and gas ban
and joining me to us that as a minister it
is how a second just ticking about nia Shane Jones,
Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Hey, Mayka, greetings for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
How important is this band reversal on oil and gas?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, about twenty percent of all our energy needs are
related to gas. As gas declines in New Zealand because
of the chilling effect of Ja Cinder Durn's announcement in
twenty eighteen, we're relying progressively more on Indonesian coal. So
it was a perverse outcome, and I think it speaks
(01:39):
to the sort of juvenile, shallow green thinking that we
can somehow create a better trajectory forward to decarbonization without
actually future proofing our energy resilience.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
What did you make of the protest yesterday, thousands of
people turning up in Auckland. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, I have to respect the fact that kiwis of
all stripes sizes, they're able to come out and make
their feelings and their priorities known to the government. But
there's five million New Zealanders who want to keep the
lights on, who want to keep jobs in New Zealand,
who who along with me, believe that New Zealand is
an environmental Eden of garden. So environmental garden of Edenah. Yeah,
(02:27):
this notion make that we're living within some sort of
climatic purgatory. I resent it, and it's sort of spread
around by the Green sisterhood and I don't like it
at all.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
How do you balance? I mean, is there anything you
can offer? See some pretty dramatic signs talking about the
corruption of ministers and lack of transparency and not being democratic.
Is there anything that you and the government can offer
the protesters which might assuage their worries.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, I'm hoping the Select Committee will come back with
some sensible suggestions. But you know, when big projects, I
recall there being a project in two thousand and five
that was going to go ahead down around Teams and
it was going to be state of the art wood
processing facility, and then some judge long since passed away,
felt that the glint of the roof would interfere with
(03:19):
the amenity values of people climbing a local ridgeline. I mean,
who is that unelected grandee to make that decision that
has such a negative impact on industry and regional development.
Those decisions, I think, if they're a great scale, they
can be safely made by politicians. And if you don't
like it, vot us out.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Your press release. Obviously we're aware of their decline and
investment obviously in oil and gas, which happens of following
a band obviously, And here are some comments from the
protest Russell Norman saying there will be no sea bed
mining off the coast of Taranaki, there will be no
new coal mines in pristine native forest. We will stop them,
(04:02):
just like we stopped the oil exploration companies. We disrupted
them until they gave up. Are you concerned that that
sort of rhetoric and what we've seen with protests in
the past disrupting the legal activities of a business or
they would argue otherwise, are concerned on that effect on it?
(04:22):
Getting investors back into the market.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Made us key weis were at an inflection point. We're
either going to surrender to this green unelected rebel, or
we're going to turbocharge our economy to generate the jobs,
generate the economic dividend, to maintain our first world quality
of life. The more I hear from these green benshees,
(04:50):
the more I fear that they're driving us towards a
Venezuelan slope that will have disastrous impacts on New Zealand
as a destination or international investment or the confidence to
create more domestic ve who mandated this group of Green
Bloodites to enjoy a moral superior position that is beyond
(05:18):
the Kiwis that voted for the current government. We derive
our legitatamy legitimacy. We derive our moral strength from the
fact that we took our ideas into the hearts and
minds and homes of Kiwis and they gave us the
democratic right to run the country. They didn't give the
democratic right to the Green people. They didn't give it
to Freddy the Frog, They didn't give it to the
(05:41):
small screen personalities, Lucy Laws and others who did their
best work in the nineteen nineties. No, they gave it
to the elected government, and we're going to get on
with governing the country.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
For the protesters, who, of course, protest groups are a
diverse bunch, and there are a lot of New Zealanders
who are just concerned with well a perceived lack of
possible transparency or just the shortcuts that are enabled by
the fast Track Bill. Is there anything that you are
thinking about in respect of the fast Track Bill where
you might think, well, hang on, here are a couple
(06:13):
of concessions we can offer for those who are worried
about just you know, the slash and burn, whiplash decisions
by some ministers.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well, I'm sure the Select Committee will come back with
some suggestions that does improve the bill. I don't want
to cut across them, but make don't underestimate how die
our economic situation is. Don't underestimate the large number of
Kiwis that are decamping to Australia. Don't underestimate the damage
(06:42):
that was done to our international reputation by that juvenile, shallow,
facile decision that Justsinda announced getting rid of oil and
gas and now we're reduced to using Indonesian coal. Of
all the things that Megan Woods and Jacinda thought that
they were doing, they have ended up visiting upon New
(07:03):
Zealand the worst possible outcome. I mean, the coal's even
worse than what we've got in New Zealand. But of
course we don't don't use our own coal and New
Zealand because the statutes have been stacked against coal exploration.
Lets something else I look forward to boosting.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Is it possible to have constructive dialogue with some of
the protest group. What do you do you sense that
regard us? What you do you are the devil?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, you just describe the rhetoric to me from Russell
Norman which has Venezuelan in character. I mean, how do
I rationally engage with that? If I've got someone who's
threatening Kiwi firms and overseas firms. We destroyed your confidence once,
we'll do it again. Well, where do you get your
mandate from? And I look forward to matching them blow
(07:47):
for blow, hyperbole for hyperbole, because I believe that Kiwi's
garden variety. Kiwis are on the side of us delivering
and getting things done in our country.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what are the projects for you that are just
crying out for the fast track? What's top of your list?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I'd like to see us proceed sooner rather than later
with a dry dock facility up in Marsden Point. I
certainly want to see more energy investments. I think the
scope for more hydroelectricity in New Zealand. I think that
in some areas we should be boosting mining, and certainly
(08:23):
we should see more mining on Stewardship Land which is
falsely identified as dock land, because we need the rare
earth minerals. I mean, why is it more morally tolerable
to bring them in from other countries that have a
lesser environmental standard, a lesser work safety, child labor standard.
In New Zealand. I mean, it's almost like you've got
(08:44):
this fantasy world where people quietly hold their breath whilst
we bring these minerals in from another part of the world,
undermining our resilience. Like I said to you, New Zealand
is a Garden of Eden. We're not some climate purgatory
put around by the Greg Systehood. We're going to get
over that false immediately.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
In terms of once we do get some of these
projects fast tracked, and let's just think of not just
the fast tracks, sorry, the oil and gas. I mean,
are you are you worried that they are actually going
to be disrupted because protesters can have got ways of
making nuisances themselves and stopping things go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
What's right, Well, you're yeah, I mean you are accurate
in the sense that Lucy and the others did scale
various cranes or I don't know parts of the superstructure
of oil and gas, and there's no guarantee they won't
entirely unlikely she'll be climbing anywhere in a hurry, but yeah.
I mean they are fomenting that level of discord and
(09:46):
it's disappointing. But unless we have gas at a reliable
level and accessible until twenty fifty, the lights are not
going to stay on in New Zealand. That will bring
a government down. That is what these people are on about.
They're not protesting for the environment. They're recruiting for the
(10:07):
Green Party, and everything that they're doing is driven to
undermine the published confidence in our government. And I'm going
to meet them blow for blow.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And is that effectively what you would say if you
were in front of one of those rallies.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Look, I was invited to go to the annual General
meeting of the Environmental Defense Society and I'm gladly have gone.
No one would have listened to me, so I've ended
up giving I've ended up giving a pre record because
sadly I'm going to be elsewhere. But I don't want
any one of your listeners feeling that these views I'm
sharing with you, I'm afraid or I'm intimidated to share
(10:44):
them with any group of New Zealanders. We have got
to settle this debate. Either we're going to maintain our
economy with some hard headed decisions that gives us resilience,
or we're going to try and keep the lights on
with unicorn kisses and the letter's never going to work.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Okay, Shane, thanks very much for your time this after
and I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Get there by bye.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Oh that's Shane Jones, Minister for Well. He's Minister for
Regional Development, Resources and Oceans and Fisheries.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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