June 16, 2024 • 38 mins
This week on Politics Central, Otago University international relations expert Robert Patman discusses whether peace in Ukraine is possible as world leaders gather in Switzerland to try and build support for Ukraine’s peace proposals - and if Putin's 'unrealistic' offer is cause for hope.
Later, Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, Brooke van Velden, talks about the Government's announcement of a roadshow consultation on work health and safety.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And a very good afternoon to you. I'm Tim Beverage.
Welcome to today's Weekend Collective this Sunday, the sixteenth of June.
We'll be taking by the way, you can text your
feedback anytime on nine to two nine to and of
course later on we'll be taking a course just looking
at what's happening today. Shortly Politics Central, I'll be speaking
with the Taga University International Relations professor Robert Patman on
(00:31):
whether actually peace in Ukraine as possible as world leaders
gather in Switzerland to try and build support for the
peace proposals for Ukraine and actually where the Putin's peace offering,
no matter how unrealistic, it gives us course for hope.
And then we're going to be catching up with a
Minister for Workplace Relationship relations should I say and Safety
Brook van Velden on the government's announcement of a road
(00:51):
show consultation on work health and safety and don't forget
to stick around for four o'clock the Health app. We're
joined by psychotherapist Carle MacDonald. We're going to have a
chat about adult ADHD and newer divergence in coping with that.
Will be taking your calls after four on eight hundred
and eighty ten to eighty and at five o'clock Smart
(01:12):
Money with Chris de Lever from Harbor Asset Management, among
other things. If you've ever wondered about how to invest
in the bond market, Chris is going to give us
the one oh one to starting with what is a
bond actually, which for many people is probably something of
a mystery. Anyway, right now it is eight minutes past
three Politics Central. Oh, by the way, just before we
(01:33):
get into Politics Central. So the Prime minister's winging his
way to Tokyo as we speak on the Defense Force
seventy five second, and he's hoping his trip to Japan
will bring more investment opportunities to New Zealand. And I've
been meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister at the end
of the week. Gosh, he's getting around, isn't he. The
Blues and the Chiefs are going to be playing the
Super Final next Saturday. I had an interesting conversation with
(01:54):
a colleague of mine around the Warriors who described, basically
said the first forty minutes of the Warriors in Campsy later,
the last twenty nine minutes of the Warriors. According to
a source of mine, who is also an expert in
Karagate chicken, but he said if the game had finished
at the fifteen or twenty minute mark, that would have
been great. Anyway, They've got their decade long losing streak
(02:16):
against Melbourne. And I got that one wrong because I
sometimes think the Warrior's specialty is, you know, when everyone's
sort of thinking, oh, there's no way they're going to
beat the Panthers, or there's no way they're going to
reverse that, you know, that losing streak against the storm,
it's the time when they surprise and delight us. But
unfortunately not this time anyway. Right, So, world leaders have
gathered at a Swiss mountain resort to try to build
(02:39):
support for Ukraine's peace proposal. Mark Mark Mitchell. That is
going to be representing New Zealand. By the way, I
just went on and googled It's Bergenstock. Is the bergenstock
on the shores of Lake Lucerne. Oh wow, you'd have
to save up a little bit to stay there. But
of course Switzerland itself is incredibly expensive. But what a
(03:02):
gorgeous spot. We're not going to be talking about the scene.
But more than ninety countries are taking part in the
summit on Peace in Ukraine. Russia was not invited and
China its most important al I think this is a
shame they refused to attend and to discuss that, I'm
joined by international relations professor at o Tigo University and
(03:23):
his name is Robert Patman, Robert Good Afternoons noon tom So.
Russia has set out at ceasefire terms which have been
rejected by most European leaders. What did you make of
the offer of the ceasefire.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, it's a non author because the so called peace
initiative consists of mister Booting consolidating two regions donetskon Hansk,
which he has under occupation, and two other regions which
are not fully under his occupation, which are cursed and SUPPORTIA.
(03:58):
So what he's saying, in effect is that he wants
his invasion to be internationally recognized and the means of
that illegal invasion to be recognized international. In return, he
will agree there should be no more fighting. So he's
looking at basically peeling off about twenty percent of Ukraine,
(04:19):
and in addition, Ukraine would have to give a solemn
undertake in never to join NATO, which means that he's
actually vetoing the sovereign choices of a neighboring country. So
to me, it's not a serious thing at all because
it's completely inconsistent with the UN Charter, with international law.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Why do you think he did.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
It, Well, there's several reasons. Firstly, it's not hitting the headlines,
but the Russian armed forces are now beginning to take
a bit of a battering in Crimea and air defense
in a EU Crimea has become problematic. So he needs
also responding to the fact that Russia has taken a
(05:04):
huge casual is in Ukraine, and so he may be
feeling a little bit of domestic heat there and he
wants to I think he's not involved in the Ukraine
peace conference in Switzerland, so he wanted to get the
world's attention that he wants to play the reasonable guy,
the invader who's been misunderstood essentially. So yeah, I think
(05:28):
those those motivations are there. He wants to take a
bit of play away from the peace conference in Switzerland,
and he's also concerned, I think about the battlefield situation.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Okay, just the fact of the offering itself, even though
obviously there's a lot of cynicism behind it, we suspect
does it give any cause for optimism that we can
read into the fact that, well, he's at least raised it.
Does it give us, Does it give Europe and Ukraine
something to work with or is it simply just a
distraction and a piece of cynical politics.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Well, I think a distraction and the cynical partic because
it's not based on a rules based order for a
country like New Zealand, we have to operate international on
the basis of rules and principles. And you can't have
a country effectively engage in a land grab and said, oh,
we're we're happy, we're twenty percent of what we've grabbed.
We did try to grab the whole country, but we
(06:25):
didn't manage to do it. And is the international community
going to recognize such behavior because it doesn't stop there?
Ef that's a precedent, and I think that's you know,
it's not it's certainly not in New Zeine's interests to
say that's fine. So this is an attempt for a
land for peace deal. But you know what, happens in
(06:45):
six What happens in six months time if he decides
those regions that he said he would accept in return
for peace, he decides he needs a bit more.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So it's not even a starting point for any.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Sort of not serious at all. I mean, let's be
quite clear, good this mister Plutin can stop this conflict
with in twenty four hours by withdrawing Russiam falls to
the internationally recognized borders of Russia.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well exactly what pretty much what Zelensky has said. What
about Europe using the money from frozen seized assets? Is
this part of making support for Ukraine Trump proof?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think it's an attempt to do that. And also
in addition, of course NATO are taking a similar measure,
because they've made with the exception of Hungary, which tends
to be pro putin, all the other members of NATO
are in agreeing to make a contribution to Ukraine's defense mandatory.
(07:43):
We also know that a number of European countries are
sending trainers to Ukraine's territory to train the Ukrainian army.
So I think that there's a recognition that mister Trump
may win the election. They have to protect their statestrategic
interest because mister Trump's made it quite clear he will
not be supporting the attempt of ukraining to eject the
(08:07):
invasion force on his territory.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
How much has actually been seized with those assets? I mean,
do you know how do you know how this is
going to work? Because who controls those seas?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I mean it's a bit problematic because while assets are
frozen I think more than three hundred pion My understanding
is they're using the interest from those frozen assets. I
think the reasoning is that, you know, Russia has broken
international law and therefore it's not entitled to the same
(08:40):
perfections that everyone else has who's complying with international law.
But it's still I think many international lawyers are quite
or uncomfortable about what's happening, because you know, he could
set a precedent as well.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I guess the thing is it's sort of like a
halfway house. They haven't actually taken the assets. Is they're
just going to use the benefits, aren't they? So it's
a sort of is it a compromise to ye?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
When you look at the damage literally hundreds of billions
of dollars of damage to infrastructure of Ukraine in an
unprovoked war. You can understand why there is a lot
of feeling, not least in Ukraine, but they desperately need
an infusion of funds and why not use this money?
But as I say, the proof of that, you know,
(09:27):
the proof of the pudding is going to be eating.
How's this going to work out?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
It is an interesting one. They're talking about precedents, but
of course we've had reparations before for wars and stuff,
isn't it. So I'm not sure why they're Well, I
can understand why they're nervous about it. Lawers are always
nervous about everything, aren't they. But what would you think
if they actually said stuff that we're going to seize
the assets and we're going to apply all this for Ukraine.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
I think it's a huge injustice if Russia doesn't make
any contribution towards the damage that it's caused in a
neighboring country. I mean, we are to initially look at Mariopol,
a beautiful city which was just absolutely just reduced to
rubble and all because of at all ambitions of the
Putin regime, and you have to say, you know that
(10:11):
there has to be some means of rebuilding Ukraine when
foreign forces are eventually ejected from that country.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Now onto the just on the Olympics, the Italian Prime
Minister Georgia Maloney says the G seven unanimously backed a
French proposal to request a global truce during the Olympic Games. Okay,
what chance of success of that.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Global troops in relation to Ukraine during the Olympics. Well,
I don't think obviously that would depend on the two
conflicting parties. I don't know what Misternsky said about that.
It's interesting though that the Ukraine Initiative, the conference in
(10:58):
Ukraine which you began with the introduction to mister Sensky
presence of is actually trying to begin the process of
getting a comprehensive peace plan in place. So it's just
the beginning of a long process, but it's quite a
significant step and shows I think, you know, mister Putin
(11:20):
is very.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Concerned about this. What what is what is uh Selensky
hoping to do?
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Well?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Is this? This conference is being attended by more than
one hundred countries and organizations. Actually, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Sorry, you know, you're right, because actually I realized that
I let one of my earlier questions get deflicted by Putin,
and actually the whole question is yeah, so let's let's
just let's just flesh that out a little bit more
before you before we wrap it up as what are
they hoping to achieve from the summit they're having in Switzerland.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Well, hoping to come up with an internationally supported plan
to bring peace to Ukraine which is consistent with international
law and the Union Charter, and amongst other things. The
plan that mister Selensky has tabled, although he said, you know,
he's he's willing to consider other variations on it, is
(12:09):
a cessation of hostilities, the restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity,
withdraw Russian troops Ukrainian soil, and the restoration of Ukraine's
pre war borders with Russia. Now, none of that's acceptable
to the Russian leadership, but what has wide support internationally
and so it's putting pressure on Russia and is an
(12:31):
attempt to mobilize international support for Ukraine's position.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So Ukraine's military position was looking pretty a little bit
bleaker a few weeks ago, but how's it looking now?
There was, it.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Was, but there's some worrying things from mister Putin, because
Ukraine is for the last few months has been baking
a strategy of what's called asymmetrical warfare. It's not attempting
to punch a hole through Russian defenses. It's going over
the top now because it's been given going over the
top of those defenses, because it's given permission by weapons
(13:05):
owners like the US and Germany to use their weapons
to attack targets or attack munitions and missiles which are
being launched from Russian territory at least close to the border,
anyway close to the border of Ukraine. So in a sense,
what we've seen is a dramatic escalation, particularly since the
last US arms deal worth sixty sixty sixty one billion,
(13:29):
which enables Ukraine. They've got longer range missiles now atoms
as their core, and they're using these long range missiles
to target air defense systems in Crimea. In the last
few days they've knocked out four I think three major
Russian air defense systems. What does that mean, Well, it's
(13:51):
very bad use, mister Putin, because if Crimea reaches a
point where it can no longer be defended by the
Russians adequately, that puts a lot of political pressure on
mister Putin in the Kremlin. He can't really politically survive
a situation where he's seen to lose in crimea.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
As the only real thing that he's ever going to
respond to force.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Well. This is a person who hasn't tolerated opposition at
home and doesn't deal well when he counters resistance or
opposition externally. So there's nothing in his track record which
suggests he compromises or or you know, meets people halfway.
And there's no halfway solution to this. By the way,
(14:39):
you can't invade a country and they say I would
decide to have half a loaf rather than the poor country.
That's just not on and I don't see there's any
way out, And quite frankly, I think the quickest way
of ending this war is to give Ukraine the support
it needs to prosecute the war against what is an
illegal invasion and attempted annexation.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Do you have any optimism as a result of the
world leaders or gathering right now?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I think it's a would move. I would personally like
to have seen New Zealand represented. This is no slight
on the Minister for Police, but heads of state fifty
countries are setting their heads of state, including by the way, Japan,
where mister Luxan is about to visit. So I would
have liked to have seen either the Prime Minister or
(15:25):
the Foreign Minister or the Defense minister being present in Switzerland.
But it is an important conference because it's important for
liberal democracy is in particular to show their solidarity with
a country like Ukraine, which is a liberal democracy. But
it's also a country which has given up nuclear weapons.
You know, it shares that with New Zealand that we
(15:47):
have non nuclear two countries have a non nuclear vision.
So it's important. And please we've got someone there. I
just thought it would have been nice if we've just
elevated it a bit, but that's you know, it's politics
as it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, well, Robert, I really appreciate you taking the time
to talk to us this afternoon. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Enjoy the resk of you afternoon. That's Robert Patman. He's
international relations professor at a Tiger University. Some fascinating insights there. Gosh,
interesting developments. Isn't it a couple of big things happening
in that respect? Well, probably I'll throw this into talk
back as well, actually, is it a mistake that we're
not sending Christopher Luxen or maybe Winston Peters. I can
see the logic for Mark Mitchell having served in international
(16:25):
conflicts and having an insight in that stuff. But from
a diplomatic point of view, I mean world leaders are
going and we're sending our minister of Police. I think
Robert Patman makes an interesting point there. You can text
me your feedback on nine two nine two anyway. We'll
be back in just a moment, Brook van veld and
the Minister for Work PAPST Relationships Relations will join us
(16:46):
to talk about health and safety in just a moment
to welcome back to the Weekend collective. By the way,
anytime you want to send your feedback in text on
nine two nine two and right moving on, so, Workplace
Relations and Safety Minister Brook van Velden has opened consultation
for an overhaul of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
(17:06):
Plans for reform come as part of the National and
Act Coalition agreement. Minister Van Velden made the consultation announcement
on Friday, saying our health and safety culture can be
summed up by the sea of orange road cones that
have taken over the country, from Santa parades to property development.
You can't get a lot done without having to set
(17:27):
up a barricade of cones. Workplace Relations and Safety Minister
Brook van Velden joins me.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon, Tim, How are you.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I'm pretty good. Thanks. You know the thing that stuck
out Santa parades? What's happening at Santa parades?
Speaker 6 (17:44):
Like this was just one example. And I talk to
people all the time and say, you can't get anywhere
around Auckland, or around any one of our main highways,
or anywhere in the country, to be frank without encountering
orange cones everywhere. And just as I was on my
way to make that announcement down at Field, we came
(18:06):
across hundreds of orange cones on the way, on the
sides of the road, and they didn't appear to be
any good reason or justification for them. So we're hoping
to ask some good, genuine questions of our health and
safety today. Yeah, I'm sure in many cases they make
sense to keep people safe, but are we overdoing it
in other cases?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Okay, so they're an example is sort of an obvious example.
We can all relate to more specifically outside of that
what is broken and what needs to be fixed.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
But what is really broken here is many people, businesses
and workers are not sure what they should be doing
to comply with health and safety, and so we're seeing
people put up posters and their work environments wondering is
that enough to keep my workers safe? And other times
we have a lot of cops added to business. Business
(18:57):
owners are now questioning whether or not what they're doing
to comply is actually leading to better outcomes. So what
I'm hoping to do with this consultation is go around
to New zealand talk to as many different industry groups
from the business side as well as the worker's perspective
to understand whether the laws and the regulations are working
(19:18):
for specific industries and whether or not they're too prescriptive
or whether they're too relaxed. Until we've got those questions answered,
I'm not going to say I know all of the answers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Do businesses know what's expected of them under the current legislation.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
In many cases, people are following the guidance that's given
by Work Safe, and they do feel like there is
very good guidance there. But on the other hand, I've
also spoken to business owners who aren't sure whether or
not they're doing what they need to to comply. In
many cases, when we're bringing in this director liability to businesses,
(20:00):
there is a bit of a gray zone on who
is actually liable. Is it the business owner, is it
the manager, is it the people on the ground. Well,
in some cases it's everyone, but people are unclear. So
what we're hoping to do is make those laws clearer
and also ask whether or not the costs are outweighing
(20:20):
the benefits in some cases. But let's actually get a
better understanding of what's happening out there and why it's
so hard for people to comply.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Of course, inevitably, I imagine it's we're always going to have
to balance this need for safety and practicalities and common sense.
And you talk about balancing that in your press release,
the need for safety with the practicalities and common sense.
Are you going to be able to do it without
still having to rely on terms such as so far
as is reasonably practicable? Or are there away? Is there
(20:50):
always going to have to be some sort of general
sort of by the way, what do you reckon?
Speaker 6 (20:56):
Yeah, And that's one of the central questions that we'll
be asking, how do you determine what is reasonably practicable?
In some industries, people have been asking for the law
to be very black and white so they can be
one hundred percent clear that they have complied. And in others, no,
this is far too prescriptive. We don't want that. And
that's in the case of the orange cones. You know
(21:17):
that's actually written out how far distance they should be
between each cone. That's getting into really nitty gritty, niche
prescriptive law. Those questions, I think do need to be asked.
How prescriptive is right for specific industries and is it
too prescriptive in some cases and not prescriptive enough in others.
(21:39):
So I'm hoping going all the way from paying a
Day all the way down to in Vicago, we'll get
a better picture as a government of what is happening
on the ground and how we can make sure that
health and safety compliance doesn't cripple productivity because we know
that we've got that issue. But on the other hand,
ensuring that we are keeping people safe work so that
(22:01):
they are returning home to their families. It's about the balance.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well, the Greens are protecting death. Their spokesperson too Too,
says more workers are going to die as a result
of this move. It's that simple. Is it that simple.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It's not that simple. It's not that simple. It really
does come down to that balance. Yes, at the heart
of this, I want to make sure that everybody goes
home safe at the end of the day when they're
out there providing for their families, that they return home
to their families. But on the other hand, if we
burden companies and business owners with compliance and compliance and
(22:39):
more cost and more regulation, and it doesn't actually lead
to better outcomes for the workers, is it beneficial not
just for that business, not just for that worker, but
for overall economy. So we need to be ripping back
the layers and seeing whether or not all of these
rules and restrictions are actually leading to better outcomes and
(22:59):
are beneficial.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Are you expecting a difference in feedback from workers as
opposed to businesses and have you received Is there a
difference in approaches from people who are working within those
businesses themselves. I think I'm.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Expecting to receive a range of feedback, especially when you
think from the worker's perspective, You've got advocacy groups that
are looking at it from a collective perspective, but I'm
also very interested in hearing from individual worker experiences that
may not usually be captured through the unions or through
(23:36):
advocacy groups, because I don't feel in consultation here as
they are quite well represented. So I'm hoping to get
as many perspectives as possible, but also bearing in mind
that under the law, workers also do have a responsibility
to keep themselves in their colleagues safe as well, not
just the business owner. So it'll be very interesting from
(23:57):
my perspective to see whether or not people are aware
of what their obligations are, whether or not it's the
business owner feel like they need to do everything to
keep people safe.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Is everything up for review, like the consequences with the
fines up to one hundred thousand dollars or to half
a million, et cetera, and beyond if they're a company,
is everything up for review?
Speaker 6 (24:20):
Well, in my perspective, everything is up for review. We
need to know that the costs and benefits are balanced,
but also that when we have work Safe as a
regulator going out there and creating prosecutions, that they're actually
doing that right. As well as what is their engagement
(24:40):
with guidance with businesses, Because of course we've got businesses
needing to comply, but we also have the regulator. And
one thing that's coming through clearly even when I was
down at Field Days is many people are unsure what
is the role of the regulator, whether or not they
are prosecuting in the way that's actually getting the best
(25:00):
outcomes for business and for the health and safety system.
So the regulation there is up for review in my
opinion as well.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Hey, just out of curious, what's with the road show
because when I hear road show, I picture a big
bus with your picture on the side and safety health
and safety logos and stuff. What does a road show
look like with Brook van Velden.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
From my perspective, it's making sure that we're on the ground.
You know, we hear many stories when we're in Wellington.
We spent four days a week there. I think it's
really important not just to be in Wellington, but to
be on the grounds listening to real kiwi's and what
they have to deal with with the laws that we create.
So that's what the road show is. It means that
(25:40):
we're actually getting out of Wellington where the laws are
made back on to the ground where kiwis live. So
I want to hear from everybody in their industry in
their own town and getting out to as many places
as possible. How is it as law makers accessible?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
How long is it going to take just the road
show itself.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
It'll be four months. I'll be taking a bit by
bit by bit of course, following alongside Parliament through the
weeks as well, So we'll be on and off for
four weeks and I'm hoping to meet as many people
as possible. But if people can't actually come out to
the road show and they might be listening along, I
encourage anybody who's got opinions on health and safety to
(26:22):
go onto MB's website. They can just type in my name,
type in health and safety. I'm sure they'll find it.
But we want to hear from as many people in
your own experience as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Oh it sounds got quite a fun way to go
around doing your job actually, So I hope you enjoy
the road trip and we get something productive out of it.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Good luck, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes, that's Brook van Velden, Minister for Health and Safety. Look,
we're going to do talk back after this. Two things,
we're going to have a chat about the Ukraine issue
and whether you know the piece offer gave you some
optimism and it should we have sent one of our leaders?
Should we have sent Christopher Luxem basically but also health
and safety? What would you be submitting? Do you think
(27:05):
we've got Do you think that Brooks on the right path?
Those road cones and abyanes of our lives? Is that
just on its own enough to be saying let's overhaul
an example of why we need to overhaul our health
and safety regulations. Love to hear from you on eight
hundred eighty ten eighty in text on nine to nine
two News Talk z B and welcome back to the
Weekend Collective. As I've said, it's eight hundred and eighty
(27:28):
t and eighty. A couple of topics. Your response to
the Robert Patman interview on whether there is the fact
that Putin has raised the prospect of you know, doing
a piece deal even though it's completely unrealistic. Does that
give you hope? And should we have sink Christph Lux
And I'm now after listening to Robert Patman, I think
we made a mistake, much as I like Mark Mitchell
a lot. And I think that out of all the
ministers who are not in you know, Deputy Preme Minister,
(27:51):
Foreign Minister, et cetera, I think actually he does have
a reasonable level of credibility to go over there, so
and lucky old him a but and also health and safety.
Do you think do you agree with Brook van Veld?
And look at the road cones. Most of the texts
I've got so far pretty much hate road cones. We've
got lots of texts just indicating so maybe that on
(28:13):
its own is cause for revisiting it. Anyway, Let's let's
get on with some of the Let's take some of
the calls I one hundred and eighty ten eighty and
there are some spear lines if you want to jump
on it. I've got plenty of text feedback. But if
you want to have your say right now, then we'd
love to hear from you. Right, let's go to Chuck Gooday,
oh hi.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I think there has to be a compromise because there's
not much choice, just something that putin to get a
little save a bit of face to his own population,
give them some land. Maybe what he's asking for in
return he has to agree to the Ukraine joining Needle
(28:53):
and when that happens. If that happens, that means he
breaks he moves on the new boundary, he'll be up against.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Would you tru I mean, I think this is a
dumb question in a way because I think I know
the answer. But how okay, how far would you trustin?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Not?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Would you trust him?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
It's not a matter of trust. He's not totally stupid.
If he agrees and Ukraine joins Natal like if he
hits Poland, now he'll be tackling all of Europe. So
if you say you can have it, these are the
new boundaries. You cross the boundary and you're up against
(29:36):
all the European countries and maybe the US.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah, what do you make of just quickly? What do
you make of the summit? As well? Because I haven't
got myself distracted by Putina? Of course the summit's a
big deal, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
No, I disagree with who's the expert you have on? Yeah?
I think, oh, what's his name? Oh that's going there,
Mark Mitchell, Mark Mitchell. He's excellent, he's got the experience.
I think in a lot of ways he could off
for ideas he'd be as good as luck.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Well, No, to be fair, he did say he meant
no disrespect from He was just talking about the office,
you know, having the office of the Prime Minister deep
And I think that's a fair enough comment, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, But with someday like Mark Mitchell, with his experience
in overseas in the military, I think he would be excellent.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Excellent, good on you that we'll put a vote of
We'll put a tick in the vote of confidence in
Mark Mitchell. There from Chuck, good on you mate, thanks
for your col Mike good you.
Speaker 7 (30:39):
Hide him just talking about health and safety. I got
into facilities management in twenty fifteen and I think it
was like a year after that the government, the new
legislation came in for health and safety management, which is
a good thing, but yeah, it was quite expensive for
a lot of building owners and what have you to
(31:03):
implement the regulations. But they'd get detailed reports from provided
health and safety providers to highlight and identify hazards all
over the show on a building in a building, and
that's good. But what I noticed is that a lot
of contractors would bypass the whole process of signing in
(31:25):
and reading they don't want to stand around for fifteen
minutes reading a booklet on what the hazards are. But
I guess it's prudent just to have them there so
that the building owners have covered themselves. That.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, it is a funny one day because when I
with my constant production work of you've just reminded me
of some of the facile questions I'm supposed to address,
Like what's a hazard of being off? Stay on stage?
Is falling off the stage? What safety procedures I talk
to my singers and say, don't fall off the stage,
or you know, there are some It does force you
(32:02):
into some fairly ridiculous over compensating, don't you think.
Speaker 7 (32:06):
Yeah, oh it is, well it can't Well it's not
really funny, but it is. Well, yeah, some of the
some of the things that are identified, Like you're telling
an electrician be aware of electrical hazards.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, I mean, obviously the consequences they're probably worth pointing
it out.
Speaker 7 (32:22):
Well, they're aware. I'm pretty sure they're aware.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Of watch out. Well, yeah, I guess so. But for
the apprentices, you know, there probably might be a news
flash for them. It's like that particular connection there you know,
it's not good enough to do X, Y and z,
But of course that's the serious stuff, isn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
Yeah, But at the end of the day, it is
good to be able to point out to your fellow
brothers and sisters hazards around the place and give them
a heads up so that they're aware of the dangers. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
No, you're right. I think actually, you know, the drawing
your attention to what the risks are and addressing it.
But it suddenly reminded me because I was thinking about
the health and my own engagement with health and safety
and some of the things you're supposed to go through,
and of course a lot of them common sense, but
maybe it doesn't hurt to think about it anyway. That's
let's carry on, David.
Speaker 8 (33:09):
Hello, Yeah, gooday, Yeah. I thought it's pretty disturbed, to
be honest. With Robert Patman's interview, he said it was
an unprovoked war. It's been provoked for a very long time,
pretty much the break up of the Soviet Union and
(33:30):
with you know, Perusian was who he actually asked to
join NATO, and you know, America and NATO have just
slapped him down repeatedly. But you know, The worst thing
was in twenty fourteen, and the CIA helped create the
coup that brought in the more western favoring government, which
(33:54):
then led on to Zelenski and they began sholling ethnic
Russians in eastern Well, Ukraine, I.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Don't quite buy those that interpretation of it. But are
you saying that Ukraine brought the war upon themselves? That
Vladimir Pertin's quite entitled to go in there and say
I want, you know, twenty percent of Ukraine and you've
only got yourselves to blame for me doing it.
Speaker 8 (34:17):
Well, he said that it was a hard red line,
what was a hard read law for Ukraine to become
part of NATO, and Biden they announced that Ukraine is
going to become part of NATO. You know, well, Ukraine
was building up the military with their help with Actually.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Okay, sorry, David, do you okay one, it's none of
his business what alliances they want to enter into. But
do you ever think there was a danger that Ukraine
or anyone in the West wants to Do you really
think that anyone credibly thinks that Russia is under threats
somehow from anyone else? Does anyone do you think that
Ukraine was likely to invade Russia.
Speaker 8 (35:03):
Well, we've already seen this with the Cuban missile crisis
that very closely led to nuclear war when Russia union.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, well I think we can move I think we
can move on from that, mate. Yeah, okay, but thanks
for your call.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
The idea, Oh, I'm not going to push back against anymore.
I think it speaks for itself. A few texts, great
assessment from Robert Patman and a bit reassuring chairs Steve Tim.
I'm impressed with Brooks Roads roadshow wave consultation. It certainly
allows for direct consultation to workers and businesses as opposed
to just lobbyists in Wellington. Good point. I thought it
(35:43):
from that point. About that, and Colin also says I've
got a lot of faith that Brook van Valden will
listen and bring about change where it's needed. Kent says
a few people sort of just backing up Mark Mitchell
as being okay, because who with Mark? Who Mark Mitchell is?
Kent writes, I'm all right with Mark Mitchell going to
this peace conference. We have to look after our own
country in nearby countries. Oh ye, your second sentence, I
(36:07):
think we really need to. I think a secure Europe
is a it should be very high in our list
of priorities Kent. But yeah, you know, I think that
Mark Mitchell is good. But I think actually to be honest,
listening to Robert Patman, when everyone else is sending their leaders,
including Japan, which is where Luxen's visiting, actually think it
was quite a big mistake that we're sending our Ministry
(36:29):
of Police tim Robert Patman explained a bit more about
freezing assets and how that's more effective than sanctions. Bill
Browse's book Freezing Order is where it all started in
Wealth Worth Reading, says Cedric thinks Cedric just being to
Napier for the weekend from Tarranger tounger cones everywhere thirty
(36:49):
thirty K, sixty K, eighty K, and as per no
one working the cone business puts out as many as
twice as many as necessary as they paid per cone,
they leave them as twice as long as necessary. I
tell you what if you had bought shares or your
business owner around the time that health and safety went
(37:09):
on steroids, I think road cone businesses, and the other
one was fencing, of course, but you can understand that
was probably in connection with the earthquake. Some of those
businesses with fairly simple business plan sell and rent out
road cones would have made a killing. Tim Look at
what the health and safety and rules have done to
(37:30):
the cost of reroofing, more than double the cost, so
many can no longer now afford to replace a wrecked roof,
resulting them living in a damp, substandard home. Yeah, don't
hold your breath for roofing rules to be changed about,
you know, removing falling hazards and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, anyway, look,
(37:51):
thanks for all your feedback. As somebody said, Putin should
just pull out of Ukraine. Who's going to clean up
the mess he has made? Yeah, I don't buy this
masochistic thing that somehow, oh Ukraine broadnots on its south by.
You know, the movements to join, if anything, proves that
it's important for Ukraine to have friends and to be
(38:11):
part of NATO. It is exactly what we've witnessed ever
since Putin rolled his tanks up and over the border.
The idea that they should never have joined NATO was like, well,
I'm sorry, but logic I don't think works on that
front as well. Also, it's the most revolting form of capitulation.
To think that, oh, we better not do that otherwise
(38:33):
will make the bully angry. Well, the only thing that's
going to solve this thing is when the bully gets
a bit more of a blood nose than he's getting
right now, unfortunately, and what a bloody tragedy that is.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talk z BE weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And a very good afternoon to you. I'm Tim Beverage.
Welcome to today's Weekend Collective this Sunday, the sixteenth of June.
We'll be taking by the way, you can text your
feedback anytime on nine to two nine to and of
course later on we'll be taking a course just looking
at what's happening today. Shortly Politics Central, I'll be speaking
with the Taga University International Relations professor Robert Patman on
(00:31):
whether actually peace in Ukraine as possible as world leaders
gather in Switzerland to try and build support for the
peace proposals for Ukraine and actually where the Putin's peace offering,
no matter how unrealistic, it gives us course for hope.
And then we're going to be catching up with a
Minister for Workplace Relationship relations should I say and Safety
Brook van Velden on the government's announcement of a road
(00:51):
show consultation on work health and safety and don't forget
to stick around for four o'clock the Health app. We're
joined by psychotherapist Carle MacDonald. We're going to have a
chat about adult ADHD and newer divergence in coping with that.
Will be taking your calls after four on eight hundred
and eighty ten to eighty and at five o'clock Smart
(01:12):
Money with Chris de Lever from Harbor Asset Management, among
other things. If you've ever wondered about how to invest
in the bond market, Chris is going to give us
the one oh one to starting with what is a
bond actually, which for many people is probably something of
a mystery. Anyway, right now it is eight minutes past
three Politics Central. Oh, by the way, just before we
(01:33):
get into Politics Central. So the Prime minister's winging his
way to Tokyo as we speak on the Defense Force
seventy five second, and he's hoping his trip to Japan
will bring more investment opportunities to New Zealand. And I've
been meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister at the end
of the week. Gosh, he's getting around, isn't he. The
Blues and the Chiefs are going to be playing the
Super Final next Saturday. I had an interesting conversation with
(01:54):
a colleague of mine around the Warriors who described, basically
said the first forty minutes of the Warriors in Campsy later,
the last twenty nine minutes of the Warriors. According to
a source of mine, who is also an expert in
Karagate chicken, but he said if the game had finished
at the fifteen or twenty minute mark, that would have
been great. Anyway, They've got their decade long losing streak
(02:16):
against Melbourne. And I got that one wrong because I
sometimes think the Warrior's specialty is, you know, when everyone's
sort of thinking, oh, there's no way they're going to
beat the Panthers, or there's no way they're going to
reverse that, you know, that losing streak against the storm,
it's the time when they surprise and delight us. But
unfortunately not this time anyway. Right, So, world leaders have
gathered at a Swiss mountain resort to try to build
(02:39):
support for Ukraine's peace proposal. Mark Mark Mitchell. That is
going to be representing New Zealand. By the way, I
just went on and googled It's Bergenstock. Is the bergenstock
on the shores of Lake Lucerne. Oh wow, you'd have
to save up a little bit to stay there. But
of course Switzerland itself is incredibly expensive. But what a
(03:02):
gorgeous spot. We're not going to be talking about the scene.
But more than ninety countries are taking part in the
summit on Peace in Ukraine. Russia was not invited and
China its most important al I think this is a
shame they refused to attend and to discuss that, I'm
joined by international relations professor at o Tigo University and
(03:23):
his name is Robert Patman, Robert Good Afternoons noon tom So.
Russia has set out at ceasefire terms which have been
rejected by most European leaders. What did you make of
the offer of the ceasefire.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, it's a non author because the so called peace
initiative consists of mister Booting consolidating two regions donetskon Hansk,
which he has under occupation, and two other regions which
are not fully under his occupation, which are cursed and SUPPORTIA.
(03:58):
So what he's saying, in effect is that he wants
his invasion to be internationally recognized and the means of
that illegal invasion to be recognized international. In return, he
will agree there should be no more fighting. So he's
looking at basically peeling off about twenty percent of Ukraine,
(04:19):
and in addition, Ukraine would have to give a solemn
undertake in never to join NATO, which means that he's
actually vetoing the sovereign choices of a neighboring country. So
to me, it's not a serious thing at all because
it's completely inconsistent with the UN Charter, with international law.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Why do you think he did.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
It, Well, there's several reasons. Firstly, it's not hitting the headlines,
but the Russian armed forces are now beginning to take
a bit of a battering in Crimea and air defense
in a EU Crimea has become problematic. So he needs
also responding to the fact that Russia has taken a
(05:04):
huge casual is in Ukraine, and so he may be
feeling a little bit of domestic heat there and he
wants to I think he's not involved in the Ukraine
peace conference in Switzerland, so he wanted to get the
world's attention that he wants to play the reasonable guy,
the invader who's been misunderstood essentially. So yeah, I think
(05:28):
those those motivations are there. He wants to take a
bit of play away from the peace conference in Switzerland,
and he's also concerned, I think about the battlefield situation.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Okay, just the fact of the offering itself, even though
obviously there's a lot of cynicism behind it, we suspect
does it give any cause for optimism that we can
read into the fact that, well, he's at least raised it.
Does it give us, Does it give Europe and Ukraine
something to work with or is it simply just a
distraction and a piece of cynical politics.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Well, I think a distraction and the cynical partic because
it's not based on a rules based order for a
country like New Zealand, we have to operate international on
the basis of rules and principles. And you can't have
a country effectively engage in a land grab and said, oh,
we're we're happy, we're twenty percent of what we've grabbed.
We did try to grab the whole country, but we
(06:25):
didn't manage to do it. And is the international community
going to recognize such behavior because it doesn't stop there?
Ef that's a precedent, and I think that's you know,
it's not it's certainly not in New Zeine's interests to
say that's fine. So this is an attempt for a
land for peace deal. But you know what, happens in
(06:45):
six What happens in six months time if he decides
those regions that he said he would accept in return
for peace, he decides he needs a bit more.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So it's not even a starting point for any.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Sort of not serious at all. I mean, let's be
quite clear, good this mister Plutin can stop this conflict
with in twenty four hours by withdrawing Russiam falls to
the internationally recognized borders of Russia.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well exactly what pretty much what Zelensky has said. What
about Europe using the money from frozen seized assets? Is
this part of making support for Ukraine Trump proof?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think it's an attempt to do that. And also
in addition, of course NATO are taking a similar measure,
because they've made with the exception of Hungary, which tends
to be pro putin, all the other members of NATO
are in agreeing to make a contribution to Ukraine's defense mandatory.
(07:43):
We also know that a number of European countries are
sending trainers to Ukraine's territory to train the Ukrainian army.
So I think that there's a recognition that mister Trump
may win the election. They have to protect their statestrategic
interest because mister Trump's made it quite clear he will
not be supporting the attempt of ukraining to eject the
(08:07):
invasion force on his territory.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
How much has actually been seized with those assets? I mean,
do you know how do you know how this is
going to work? Because who controls those seas?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I mean it's a bit problematic because while assets are
frozen I think more than three hundred pion My understanding
is they're using the interest from those frozen assets. I
think the reasoning is that, you know, Russia has broken
international law and therefore it's not entitled to the same
(08:40):
perfections that everyone else has who's complying with international law.
But it's still I think many international lawyers are quite
or uncomfortable about what's happening, because you know, he could
set a precedent as well.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I guess the thing is it's sort of like a
halfway house. They haven't actually taken the assets. Is they're
just going to use the benefits, aren't they? So it's
a sort of is it a compromise to ye?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
When you look at the damage literally hundreds of billions
of dollars of damage to infrastructure of Ukraine in an
unprovoked war. You can understand why there is a lot
of feeling, not least in Ukraine, but they desperately need
an infusion of funds and why not use this money?
But as I say, the proof of that, you know,
(09:27):
the proof of the pudding is going to be eating.
How's this going to work out?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
It is an interesting one. They're talking about precedents, but
of course we've had reparations before for wars and stuff,
isn't it. So I'm not sure why they're Well, I
can understand why they're nervous about it. Lawers are always
nervous about everything, aren't they. But what would you think
if they actually said stuff that we're going to seize
the assets and we're going to apply all this for Ukraine.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
I think it's a huge injustice if Russia doesn't make
any contribution towards the damage that it's caused in a
neighboring country. I mean, we are to initially look at Mariopol,
a beautiful city which was just absolutely just reduced to
rubble and all because of at all ambitions of the
Putin regime, and you have to say, you know that
(10:11):
there has to be some means of rebuilding Ukraine when
foreign forces are eventually ejected from that country.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Now onto the just on the Olympics, the Italian Prime
Minister Georgia Maloney says the G seven unanimously backed a
French proposal to request a global truce during the Olympic Games. Okay,
what chance of success of that.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Global troops in relation to Ukraine during the Olympics. Well,
I don't think obviously that would depend on the two
conflicting parties. I don't know what Misternsky said about that.
It's interesting though that the Ukraine Initiative, the conference in
(10:58):
Ukraine which you began with the introduction to mister Sensky
presence of is actually trying to begin the process of
getting a comprehensive peace plan in place. So it's just
the beginning of a long process, but it's quite a
significant step and shows I think, you know, mister Putin
(11:20):
is very.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Concerned about this. What what is what is uh Selensky
hoping to do?
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Well?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Is this? This conference is being attended by more than
one hundred countries and organizations. Actually, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Sorry, you know, you're right, because actually I realized that
I let one of my earlier questions get deflicted by Putin,
and actually the whole question is yeah, so let's let's
just let's just flesh that out a little bit more
before you before we wrap it up as what are
they hoping to achieve from the summit they're having in Switzerland.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Well, hoping to come up with an internationally supported plan
to bring peace to Ukraine which is consistent with international
law and the Union Charter, and amongst other things. The
plan that mister Selensky has tabled, although he said, you know,
he's he's willing to consider other variations on it, is
(12:09):
a cessation of hostilities, the restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity,
withdraw Russian troops Ukrainian soil, and the restoration of Ukraine's
pre war borders with Russia. Now, none of that's acceptable
to the Russian leadership, but what has wide support internationally
and so it's putting pressure on Russia and is an
(12:31):
attempt to mobilize international support for Ukraine's position.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So Ukraine's military position was looking pretty a little bit
bleaker a few weeks ago, but how's it looking now?
There was, it.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Was, but there's some worrying things from mister Putin, because
Ukraine is for the last few months has been baking
a strategy of what's called asymmetrical warfare. It's not attempting
to punch a hole through Russian defenses. It's going over
the top now because it's been given going over the
top of those defenses, because it's given permission by weapons
(13:05):
owners like the US and Germany to use their weapons
to attack targets or attack munitions and missiles which are
being launched from Russian territory at least close to the border,
anyway close to the border of Ukraine. So in a sense,
what we've seen is a dramatic escalation, particularly since the
last US arms deal worth sixty sixty sixty one billion,
(13:29):
which enables Ukraine. They've got longer range missiles now atoms
as their core, and they're using these long range missiles
to target air defense systems in Crimea. In the last
few days they've knocked out four I think three major
Russian air defense systems. What does that mean, Well, it's
(13:51):
very bad use, mister Putin, because if Crimea reaches a
point where it can no longer be defended by the
Russians adequately, that puts a lot of political pressure on
mister Putin in the Kremlin. He can't really politically survive
a situation where he's seen to lose in crimea.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
As the only real thing that he's ever going to
respond to force.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Well. This is a person who hasn't tolerated opposition at
home and doesn't deal well when he counters resistance or
opposition externally. So there's nothing in his track record which
suggests he compromises or or you know, meets people halfway.
And there's no halfway solution to this. By the way,
(14:39):
you can't invade a country and they say I would
decide to have half a loaf rather than the poor country.
That's just not on and I don't see there's any
way out, And quite frankly, I think the quickest way
of ending this war is to give Ukraine the support
it needs to prosecute the war against what is an
illegal invasion and attempted annexation.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Do you have any optimism as a result of the
world leaders or gathering right now?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I think it's a would move. I would personally like
to have seen New Zealand represented. This is no slight
on the Minister for Police, but heads of state fifty
countries are setting their heads of state, including by the way, Japan,
where mister Luxan is about to visit. So I would
have liked to have seen either the Prime Minister or
(15:25):
the Foreign Minister or the Defense minister being present in Switzerland.
But it is an important conference because it's important for
liberal democracy is in particular to show their solidarity with
a country like Ukraine, which is a liberal democracy. But
it's also a country which has given up nuclear weapons.
You know, it shares that with New Zealand that we
(15:47):
have non nuclear two countries have a non nuclear vision.
So it's important. And please we've got someone there. I
just thought it would have been nice if we've just
elevated it a bit, but that's you know, it's politics
as it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, well, Robert, I really appreciate you taking the time
to talk to us this afternoon. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Enjoy the resk of you afternoon. That's Robert Patman. He's
international relations professor at a Tiger University. Some fascinating insights there. Gosh,
interesting developments. Isn't it a couple of big things happening
in that respect? Well, probably I'll throw this into talk
back as well, actually, is it a mistake that we're
not sending Christopher Luxen or maybe Winston Peters. I can
see the logic for Mark Mitchell having served in international
(16:25):
conflicts and having an insight in that stuff. But from
a diplomatic point of view, I mean world leaders are
going and we're sending our minister of Police. I think
Robert Patman makes an interesting point there. You can text
me your feedback on nine two nine two anyway. We'll
be back in just a moment, Brook van veld and
the Minister for Work PAPST Relationships Relations will join us
(16:46):
to talk about health and safety in just a moment
to welcome back to the Weekend collective. By the way,
anytime you want to send your feedback in text on
nine two nine two and right moving on, so, Workplace
Relations and Safety Minister Brook van Velden has opened consultation
for an overhaul of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
(17:06):
Plans for reform come as part of the National and
Act Coalition agreement. Minister Van Velden made the consultation announcement
on Friday, saying our health and safety culture can be
summed up by the sea of orange road cones that
have taken over the country, from Santa parades to property development.
You can't get a lot done without having to set
(17:27):
up a barricade of cones. Workplace Relations and Safety Minister
Brook van Velden joins me.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon, Tim, How are you.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I'm pretty good. Thanks. You know the thing that stuck
out Santa parades? What's happening at Santa parades?
Speaker 6 (17:44):
Like this was just one example. And I talk to
people all the time and say, you can't get anywhere
around Auckland, or around any one of our main highways,
or anywhere in the country, to be frank without encountering
orange cones everywhere. And just as I was on my
way to make that announcement down at Field, we came
(18:06):
across hundreds of orange cones on the way, on the
sides of the road, and they didn't appear to be
any good reason or justification for them. So we're hoping
to ask some good, genuine questions of our health and
safety today. Yeah, I'm sure in many cases they make
sense to keep people safe, but are we overdoing it
in other cases?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Okay, so they're an example is sort of an obvious example.
We can all relate to more specifically outside of that
what is broken and what needs to be fixed.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
But what is really broken here is many people, businesses
and workers are not sure what they should be doing
to comply with health and safety, and so we're seeing
people put up posters and their work environments wondering is
that enough to keep my workers safe? And other times
we have a lot of cops added to business. Business
(18:57):
owners are now questioning whether or not what they're doing
to comply is actually leading to better outcomes. So what
I'm hoping to do with this consultation is go around
to New zealand talk to as many different industry groups
from the business side as well as the worker's perspective
to understand whether the laws and the regulations are working
(19:18):
for specific industries and whether or not they're too prescriptive
or whether they're too relaxed. Until we've got those questions answered,
I'm not going to say I know all of the answers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Do businesses know what's expected of them under the current legislation.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
In many cases, people are following the guidance that's given
by Work Safe, and they do feel like there is
very good guidance there. But on the other hand, I've
also spoken to business owners who aren't sure whether or
not they're doing what they need to to comply. In
many cases, when we're bringing in this director liability to businesses,
(20:00):
there is a bit of a gray zone on who
is actually liable. Is it the business owner, is it
the manager, is it the people on the ground. Well,
in some cases it's everyone, but people are unclear. So
what we're hoping to do is make those laws clearer
and also ask whether or not the costs are outweighing
(20:20):
the benefits in some cases. But let's actually get a
better understanding of what's happening out there and why it's
so hard for people to comply.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Of course, inevitably, I imagine it's we're always going to have
to balance this need for safety and practicalities and common sense.
And you talk about balancing that in your press release,
the need for safety with the practicalities and common sense.
Are you going to be able to do it without
still having to rely on terms such as so far
as is reasonably practicable? Or are there away? Is there
(20:50):
always going to have to be some sort of general
sort of by the way, what do you reckon?
Speaker 6 (20:56):
Yeah, And that's one of the central questions that we'll
be asking, how do you determine what is reasonably practicable?
In some industries, people have been asking for the law
to be very black and white so they can be
one hundred percent clear that they have complied. And in others, no,
this is far too prescriptive. We don't want that. And
that's in the case of the orange cones. You know
(21:17):
that's actually written out how far distance they should be
between each cone. That's getting into really nitty gritty, niche
prescriptive law. Those questions, I think do need to be asked.
How prescriptive is right for specific industries and is it
too prescriptive in some cases and not prescriptive enough in others.
(21:39):
So I'm hoping going all the way from paying a
Day all the way down to in Vicago, we'll get
a better picture as a government of what is happening
on the ground and how we can make sure that
health and safety compliance doesn't cripple productivity because we know
that we've got that issue. But on the other hand,
ensuring that we are keeping people safe work so that
(22:01):
they are returning home to their families. It's about the balance.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well, the Greens are protecting death. Their spokesperson too Too,
says more workers are going to die as a result
of this move. It's that simple. Is it that simple.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It's not that simple. It's not that simple. It really
does come down to that balance. Yes, at the heart
of this, I want to make sure that everybody goes
home safe at the end of the day when they're
out there providing for their families, that they return home
to their families. But on the other hand, if we
burden companies and business owners with compliance and compliance and
(22:39):
more cost and more regulation, and it doesn't actually lead
to better outcomes for the workers, is it beneficial not
just for that business, not just for that worker, but
for overall economy. So we need to be ripping back
the layers and seeing whether or not all of these
rules and restrictions are actually leading to better outcomes and
(22:59):
are beneficial.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Are you expecting a difference in feedback from workers as
opposed to businesses and have you received Is there a
difference in approaches from people who are working within those
businesses themselves. I think I'm.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Expecting to receive a range of feedback, especially when you
think from the worker's perspective, You've got advocacy groups that
are looking at it from a collective perspective, but I'm
also very interested in hearing from individual worker experiences that
may not usually be captured through the unions or through
(23:36):
advocacy groups, because I don't feel in consultation here as
they are quite well represented. So I'm hoping to get
as many perspectives as possible, but also bearing in mind
that under the law, workers also do have a responsibility
to keep themselves in their colleagues safe as well, not
just the business owner. So it'll be very interesting from
(23:57):
my perspective to see whether or not people are aware
of what their obligations are, whether or not it's the
business owner feel like they need to do everything to
keep people safe.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Is everything up for review, like the consequences with the
fines up to one hundred thousand dollars or to half
a million, et cetera, and beyond if they're a company,
is everything up for review?
Speaker 6 (24:20):
Well, in my perspective, everything is up for review. We
need to know that the costs and benefits are balanced,
but also that when we have work Safe as a
regulator going out there and creating prosecutions, that they're actually
doing that right. As well as what is their engagement
(24:40):
with guidance with businesses, Because of course we've got businesses
needing to comply, but we also have the regulator. And
one thing that's coming through clearly even when I was
down at Field Days is many people are unsure what
is the role of the regulator, whether or not they
are prosecuting in the way that's actually getting the best
(25:00):
outcomes for business and for the health and safety system.
So the regulation there is up for review in my
opinion as well.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Hey, just out of curious, what's with the road show
because when I hear road show, I picture a big
bus with your picture on the side and safety health
and safety logos and stuff. What does a road show
look like with Brook van Velden.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
From my perspective, it's making sure that we're on the ground.
You know, we hear many stories when we're in Wellington.
We spent four days a week there. I think it's
really important not just to be in Wellington, but to
be on the grounds listening to real kiwi's and what
they have to deal with with the laws that we create.
So that's what the road show is. It means that
(25:40):
we're actually getting out of Wellington where the laws are
made back on to the ground where kiwis live. So
I want to hear from everybody in their industry in
their own town and getting out to as many places
as possible. How is it as law makers accessible?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
How long is it going to take just the road
show itself.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
It'll be four months. I'll be taking a bit by
bit by bit of course, following alongside Parliament through the
weeks as well, So we'll be on and off for
four weeks and I'm hoping to meet as many people
as possible. But if people can't actually come out to
the road show and they might be listening along, I
encourage anybody who's got opinions on health and safety to
(26:22):
go onto MB's website. They can just type in my name,
type in health and safety. I'm sure they'll find it.
But we want to hear from as many people in
your own experience as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Oh it sounds got quite a fun way to go
around doing your job actually, So I hope you enjoy
the road trip and we get something productive out of it.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Good luck, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes, that's Brook van Velden, Minister for Health and Safety. Look,
we're going to do talk back after this. Two things,
we're going to have a chat about the Ukraine issue
and whether you know the piece offer gave you some
optimism and it should we have sent one of our leaders?
Should we have sent Christopher Luxem basically but also health
and safety? What would you be submitting? Do you think
(27:05):
we've got Do you think that Brooks on the right path?
Those road cones and abyanes of our lives? Is that
just on its own enough to be saying let's overhaul
an example of why we need to overhaul our health
and safety regulations. Love to hear from you on eight
hundred eighty ten eighty in text on nine to nine
two News Talk z B and welcome back to the
Weekend Collective. As I've said, it's eight hundred and eighty
(27:28):
t and eighty. A couple of topics. Your response to
the Robert Patman interview on whether there is the fact
that Putin has raised the prospect of you know, doing
a piece deal even though it's completely unrealistic. Does that
give you hope? And should we have sink Christph Lux
And I'm now after listening to Robert Patman, I think
we made a mistake, much as I like Mark Mitchell
a lot. And I think that out of all the
ministers who are not in you know, Deputy Preme Minister,
(27:51):
Foreign Minister, et cetera, I think actually he does have
a reasonable level of credibility to go over there, so
and lucky old him a but and also health and safety.
Do you think do you agree with Brook van Veld?
And look at the road cones. Most of the texts
I've got so far pretty much hate road cones. We've
got lots of texts just indicating so maybe that on
(28:13):
its own is cause for revisiting it. Anyway, Let's let's
get on with some of the Let's take some of
the calls I one hundred and eighty ten eighty and
there are some spear lines if you want to jump
on it. I've got plenty of text feedback. But if
you want to have your say right now, then we'd
love to hear from you. Right, let's go to Chuck Gooday,
oh hi.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I think there has to be a compromise because there's
not much choice, just something that putin to get a
little save a bit of face to his own population,
give them some land. Maybe what he's asking for in
return he has to agree to the Ukraine joining Needle
(28:53):
and when that happens. If that happens, that means he
breaks he moves on the new boundary, he'll be up against.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Would you tru I mean, I think this is a
dumb question in a way because I think I know
the answer. But how okay, how far would you trustin?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Not?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Would you trust him?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
It's not a matter of trust. He's not totally stupid.
If he agrees and Ukraine joins Natal like if he
hits Poland, now he'll be tackling all of Europe. So
if you say you can have it, these are the
new boundaries. You cross the boundary and you're up against
(29:36):
all the European countries and maybe the US.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah, what do you make of just quickly? What do
you make of the summit? As well? Because I haven't
got myself distracted by Putina? Of course the summit's a
big deal, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
No, I disagree with who's the expert you have on? Yeah?
I think, oh, what's his name? Oh that's going there,
Mark Mitchell, Mark Mitchell. He's excellent, he's got the experience.
I think in a lot of ways he could off
for ideas he'd be as good as luck.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Well, No, to be fair, he did say he meant
no disrespect from He was just talking about the office,
you know, having the office of the Prime Minister deep
And I think that's a fair enough comment, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, But with someday like Mark Mitchell, with his experience
in overseas in the military, I think he would be excellent.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Excellent, good on you that we'll put a vote of
We'll put a tick in the vote of confidence in
Mark Mitchell. There from Chuck, good on you mate, thanks
for your col Mike good you.
Speaker 7 (30:39):
Hide him just talking about health and safety. I got
into facilities management in twenty fifteen and I think it
was like a year after that the government, the new
legislation came in for health and safety management, which is
a good thing, but yeah, it was quite expensive for
a lot of building owners and what have you to
(31:03):
implement the regulations. But they'd get detailed reports from provided
health and safety providers to highlight and identify hazards all
over the show on a building in a building, and
that's good. But what I noticed is that a lot
of contractors would bypass the whole process of signing in
(31:25):
and reading they don't want to stand around for fifteen
minutes reading a booklet on what the hazards are. But
I guess it's prudent just to have them there so
that the building owners have covered themselves. That.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, it is a funny one day because when I
with my constant production work of you've just reminded me
of some of the facile questions I'm supposed to address,
Like what's a hazard of being off? Stay on stage?
Is falling off the stage? What safety procedures I talk
to my singers and say, don't fall off the stage,
or you know, there are some It does force you
(32:02):
into some fairly ridiculous over compensating, don't you think.
Speaker 7 (32:06):
Yeah, oh it is, well it can't Well it's not
really funny, but it is. Well, yeah, some of the
some of the things that are identified, Like you're telling
an electrician be aware of electrical hazards.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, I mean, obviously the consequences they're probably worth pointing
it out.
Speaker 7 (32:22):
Well, they're aware. I'm pretty sure they're aware.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Of watch out. Well, yeah, I guess so. But for
the apprentices, you know, there probably might be a news
flash for them. It's like that particular connection there you know,
it's not good enough to do X, Y and z,
But of course that's the serious stuff, isn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
Yeah, But at the end of the day, it is
good to be able to point out to your fellow
brothers and sisters hazards around the place and give them
a heads up so that they're aware of the dangers. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
No, you're right. I think actually, you know, the drawing
your attention to what the risks are and addressing it.
But it suddenly reminded me because I was thinking about
the health and my own engagement with health and safety
and some of the things you're supposed to go through,
and of course a lot of them common sense, but
maybe it doesn't hurt to think about it anyway. That's
let's carry on, David.
Speaker 8 (33:09):
Hello, Yeah, gooday, Yeah. I thought it's pretty disturbed, to
be honest. With Robert Patman's interview, he said it was
an unprovoked war. It's been provoked for a very long time,
pretty much the break up of the Soviet Union and
(33:30):
with you know, Perusian was who he actually asked to
join NATO, and you know, America and NATO have just
slapped him down repeatedly. But you know, The worst thing
was in twenty fourteen, and the CIA helped create the
coup that brought in the more western favoring government, which
(33:54):
then led on to Zelenski and they began sholling ethnic
Russians in eastern Well, Ukraine, I.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Don't quite buy those that interpretation of it. But are
you saying that Ukraine brought the war upon themselves? That
Vladimir Pertin's quite entitled to go in there and say
I want, you know, twenty percent of Ukraine and you've
only got yourselves to blame for me doing it.
Speaker 8 (34:17):
Well, he said that it was a hard red line,
what was a hard read law for Ukraine to become
part of NATO, and Biden they announced that Ukraine is
going to become part of NATO. You know, well, Ukraine
was building up the military with their help with Actually.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Okay, sorry, David, do you okay one, it's none of
his business what alliances they want to enter into. But
do you ever think there was a danger that Ukraine
or anyone in the West wants to Do you really
think that anyone credibly thinks that Russia is under threats
somehow from anyone else? Does anyone do you think that
Ukraine was likely to invade Russia.
Speaker 8 (35:03):
Well, we've already seen this with the Cuban missile crisis
that very closely led to nuclear war when Russia union.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, well I think we can move I think we
can move on from that, mate. Yeah, okay, but thanks
for your call.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
The idea, Oh, I'm not going to push back against anymore.
I think it speaks for itself. A few texts, great
assessment from Robert Patman and a bit reassuring chairs Steve Tim.
I'm impressed with Brooks Roads roadshow wave consultation. It certainly
allows for direct consultation to workers and businesses as opposed
to just lobbyists in Wellington. Good point. I thought it
(35:43):
from that point. About that, and Colin also says I've
got a lot of faith that Brook van Valden will
listen and bring about change where it's needed. Kent says
a few people sort of just backing up Mark Mitchell
as being okay, because who with Mark? Who Mark Mitchell is?
Kent writes, I'm all right with Mark Mitchell going to
this peace conference. We have to look after our own
country in nearby countries. Oh ye, your second sentence, I
(36:07):
think we really need to. I think a secure Europe
is a it should be very high in our list
of priorities Kent. But yeah, you know, I think that
Mark Mitchell is good. But I think actually to be honest,
listening to Robert Patman, when everyone else is sending their leaders,
including Japan, which is where Luxen's visiting, actually think it
was quite a big mistake that we're sending our Ministry
(36:29):
of Police tim Robert Patman explained a bit more about
freezing assets and how that's more effective than sanctions. Bill
Browse's book Freezing Order is where it all started in
Wealth Worth Reading, says Cedric thinks Cedric just being to
Napier for the weekend from Tarranger tounger cones everywhere thirty
(36:49):
thirty K, sixty K, eighty K, and as per no
one working the cone business puts out as many as
twice as many as necessary as they paid per cone,
they leave them as twice as long as necessary. I
tell you what if you had bought shares or your
business owner around the time that health and safety went
(37:09):
on steroids, I think road cone businesses, and the other
one was fencing, of course, but you can understand that
was probably in connection with the earthquake. Some of those
businesses with fairly simple business plan sell and rent out
road cones would have made a killing. Tim Look at
what the health and safety and rules have done to
(37:30):
the cost of reroofing, more than double the cost, so
many can no longer now afford to replace a wrecked roof,
resulting them living in a damp, substandard home. Yeah, don't
hold your breath for roofing rules to be changed about,
you know, removing falling hazards and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, anyway, look,
(37:51):
thanks for all your feedback. As somebody said, Putin should
just pull out of Ukraine. Who's going to clean up
the mess he has made? Yeah, I don't buy this
masochistic thing that somehow, oh Ukraine broadnots on its south by.
You know, the movements to join, if anything, proves that
it's important for Ukraine to have friends and to be
(38:11):
part of NATO. It is exactly what we've witnessed ever
since Putin rolled his tanks up and over the border.
The idea that they should never have joined NATO was like, well,
I'm sorry, but logic I don't think works on that
front as well. Also, it's the most revolting form of capitulation.
To think that, oh, we better not do that otherwise
(38:33):
will make the bully angry. Well, the only thing that's
going to solve this thing is when the bully gets
a bit more of a blood nose than he's getting
right now, unfortunately, and what a bloody tragedy that is.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
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