September 8, 2024 • 10 mins
A recent law change saw councils given the choice to either hold a binding poll or disestablish their Maori wards.
Central Hawkes Bay Mayor Alex Walker told Tim Beveridge that publicising the issue removes the power from local governments.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
There'd be a recent law change is seeing councils given
the choice do we either hold a binding poll or
disestablish the marray Wards. Several councilors nation might have made
the decision to take the issue to referendum and allow
the people just to decide which they prefer. However, some
councils have been outspoken in support of Mary Wards, in
a few going so far as to say they would
(00:29):
maintain Marie Wards regardless of the outcome of a referendum,
and Central Hawk's Bay Mayor Alex Walker's reformed firm the
Mary Ward and she is with me now.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Good afternoon, Carolder, Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So what's so special about Marry Wards for you?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Look, this is a really important moment for our community
about how do we shape what the future looks like?
And I've been chewing over this for a number of
years and done a lot of learning on this, and
really what I see as the opportunity for us to
move forward together is to recognize that there is a
hand up required to a Manifenoa to ensure that they
(01:09):
can see themselves in the local government system. So that
we can move forward together.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Do you think why do you think it's so divisive
or do you think it's divisive?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Look, I think there is some reaction in our communities
that is making it divisive. But what we're trying to
do is stay pretty open hearted and open minded as
we're trying to talk about it as a community. And
I think that's going to be one of the toughest
things going into the referendum is that government are saying
we want this to be a local decision, but with
(01:41):
forty something local councils having this referendum at the same time,
it's going to really quickly become a national debate influenced
by national voices, and it will not be about my
community members talking to my community members. It will become
a public, national, and media driven debate, which is going
to be very tough.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
What do you mean media driven debate? We're going to
be discussing it what here?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Meaning that there are going to be really clear national
voices that can capture attention in the media that are
not necessarily the nuance of the local voice around what
does it mean for the people in the Central Hawk's
Bay community or any other local community.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But isn't it your community will be voting on what
your community wants, won't it?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Absolutely based on the conversation that we will try try
to be having at a local level. And what I'm
flagging is that because there's so many having it at
a local level, it'll be very difficult to keep it
about just what happens at a local level. It will
be heavily influenced by the collective and the national positions.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I'm guessing you're happy that you, yourself and your
counselors have to present yourself to the polls each electoral
cycle to win support, aren't you?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So why isn't that good enough for anyone regardless of
their race?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
It is absolutely And this is a choice where those
on the Marii electoral role will actually be able to
see people that they can vote for based on being
on the Marii electoral role, just like they do in
the central elections. And allows us to ensure that there
is a voice that is very clearly Mary and is
not being expected to think in that represent representative voice
(03:22):
about the wider electorates. They can come unapologetically as Marty
then come to the table, where as a collective, we
make decisions about everybody in the district for the future.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, hang on, you're just talking about them coming on
their sort of mari thing, but then talking about how
you come as a collective and make decisions for everyone.
What is it? Is it a narrow focus or is
it a wide focus?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It's both and that's the nuance of local government. We
have representatives come from all walks of life around our communities,
but the power is we come together to govern organizations
where the whole diversity of viewpoints are so vital to
get in good decision making, because if we all think
the same and all have the same background in the
(04:05):
same skill sets, we're just going to make the same
old decisions that are just in an echo chamber. We
need that really strong diversity of voice that clearly reflects
the community to make great decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Are you suggesting that the rest of your council is
just one big blamange of people who are all the same.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I'm saying that the mardy voice is not clear and
not strong in the elected and voting voice that sits
at the table.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What about Pacific Island Voices and other sort of groups.
Do you think that there should be allowances made for
Asian the Asian community or do you think there should
be seats specifically based on how people identify outside of Maridam.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yes, So what we see is people that are looking
to come onto council. There's all sorts of people representing
our communities. There is a slightly different perspective though around
the Marty seats based on te tety or white tonguey
and that they have a role which is very clear
(05:10):
in their monofenera status in our communities and it's very
important that their voice is at the table. There are
other ways that others can come to the table. I'll
give you an example. We have just changed our whole
representation structure, not just a mighty ward where we have
instead of just having a rural ward and an urban ward,
we've actually reduced the number of them tho seats from
(05:33):
four to three and introduced to at large wards to
make it more accessible for those that don't necessarily identify
as rural or urban to be standing to be represented
at council. So we're using all sorts of tools to
help different people get into the diverse mix required for
good decision making.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Where are you at with what happened. What happens if
the Electric decides that it wants to get rid of
the mari wards and just have everyone stand as individuals, well.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That will be the result of the referendum. And there's
quite a few more than a year to go until
that decision needs to be made. I think there's going
to be a lot of conversations at a local and
a national level about this issue as people get themselves
informed as to how they might vote in October. It's
a shame that we have got to this point, particularly
(06:26):
on this kind of representation, when other kinds of representation
don't go to a referendum decision. I think that's unfair
just in itself, but the reality is that's the rules
that have been given to us, and that's what we're
going to go into. And very clearly when I went
to the table personally to make this decision this week,
to reaffirm had had some really specific conversations with our
(06:50):
Manasena and our mighty leaders in our community for them
to be really clear that this was the public conversation
that we wanted to take on, that they were supportive
of wanting to take on the conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I mean it's a sort of very easy vote because
in a way you can vote to maintain this status
quo and then leave it up to the referendum.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Oh that's true. So in Central Hawk's Bay we're one
of eight councils that have got a slightly nuanced position
where we had decided to use a mighty ward representation mechanism,
but it hadn't been put in place at the last election,
so we don't have a mighty ward seat currently at
my council table. And what we have done is reaffirmed
we want to do that in twenty twenty five. We
(07:30):
will have a mighty ward at twenty twenty five and
it will be up for the referendum as well, and
then that will be implemented in twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, I mean, couldn't you just fulfill the sort of
the desire or the wish to have and put from
EWI by having their input on advice on issues and
having them as consultants. Isn't that something I mean that
you could do regardless of whether you have the official
MARRA seats.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Wards for sure, and look we do that, but I've
also seen instances where we go and have both conversations
with our Manifenoa and bring that specific voice in and
then the council table makes a decision which to go
in a direction which is against what that voice from
Mana Fenowa has been. And really clearly the power of
(08:20):
not just having a say like any other stakeholder, but
actually participating in the voting and the final decision making
so that others aren't asserting their view over the top
of it, they're actually actively in the decision making.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So if the referendum goes the way of getting disestablishing
the Maria wards, are you with some of the voices
within local body politics that have said we're going to
ignore it and just carry on anyway.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Oh look, I am the mayor of a small council
in a rural community. We haven't got the means to
be off fighting the government. We will take the rules
as they are written in how we take it forward.
But it's still it's still a difficult thing to have
to do. When we were we had been engaging with
(09:07):
the rules as they were. Now the rules change, we've
got to engage with them in a different way. It's
a frustrating place to be in because it's wasting time
and energy, which is really unfortunate. We've got a huge,
huge infrastructure issues and we really want to be talking
about those. Well.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I guess it's politics, isn't it. But hey, Alex, I
really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks so much, nice
to talk to. Yeah, thank you. That's Alex Walker. She's
the mayor of Central Hawk's Bay. On the referendum, where
are you at with the ref friendom and the presence
of Mari Ward seats? I be honest, I thought that
logically she sort of contradicted this souf a little bit
about talking about individual voices and then you know the
(09:43):
voices that were all of the same voice. I mean,
New Zealand is a diverse country. Here's my quick heart
take before we go to the course. New Zealand's a
diverse country. I'm completely over this idea that it's Mari
versus parkiha and I don't think that the way we
all get on with each other is what New Zealand
is like at all. I think we've been befriending each other.
We've been dating each other, marrying each other, having kids
(10:06):
together with all sorts of cultures. We're a multicultural society
and I just think that this debate where we have
to split things off based on whether you happen to
be Mari or Pakia is just so divisive, and it's
in pushing back against that you're accused of being device yourself,
which is kind of ironic. But I think we are
much more as New Zealanders, integrated and tolerant of each
(10:29):
other than political discussions, which have you believe you'd think
we're at each other's throats all the time, but it
sounds like that when you listen to Parliament and some
of the rhetoric that comes out of it. So for me,
I'd be disestablishing those seats. I think of my hometown.
Tanya taps all there, who's the mayor and who's of
Mari descent. I don't think she had to play that
card in winning the election. All she played was the
(10:50):
card of trust me. I'm competent, I know what I'm doing,
and people went, yes, we're with you. So good on Tanya.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
There'd be a recent law change is seeing councils given
the choice do we either hold a binding poll or
disestablish the marray Wards. Several councilors nation might have made
the decision to take the issue to referendum and allow
the people just to decide which they prefer. However, some
councils have been outspoken in support of Mary Wards, in
a few going so far as to say they would
(00:29):
maintain Marie Wards regardless of the outcome of a referendum,
and Central Hawk's Bay Mayor Alex Walker's reformed firm the
Mary Ward and she is with me now.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Good afternoon, Carolder, Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So what's so special about Marry Wards for you?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Look, this is a really important moment for our community
about how do we shape what the future looks like?
And I've been chewing over this for a number of
years and done a lot of learning on this, and
really what I see as the opportunity for us to
move forward together is to recognize that there is a
hand up required to a Manifenoa to ensure that they
(01:09):
can see themselves in the local government system. So that
we can move forward together.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Do you think why do you think it's so divisive
or do you think it's divisive?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Look, I think there is some reaction in our communities
that is making it divisive. But what we're trying to
do is stay pretty open hearted and open minded as
we're trying to talk about it as a community. And
I think that's going to be one of the toughest
things going into the referendum is that government are saying
we want this to be a local decision, but with
(01:41):
forty something local councils having this referendum at the same time,
it's going to really quickly become a national debate influenced
by national voices, and it will not be about my
community members talking to my community members. It will become
a public, national, and media driven debate, which is going
to be very tough.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
What do you mean media driven debate? We're going to
be discussing it what here?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Meaning that there are going to be really clear national
voices that can capture attention in the media that are
not necessarily the nuance of the local voice around what
does it mean for the people in the Central Hawk's
Bay community or any other local community.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But isn't it your community will be voting on what
your community wants, won't it?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Absolutely based on the conversation that we will try try
to be having at a local level. And what I'm
flagging is that because there's so many having it at
a local level, it'll be very difficult to keep it
about just what happens at a local level. It will
be heavily influenced by the collective and the national positions.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I'm guessing you're happy that you, yourself and your
counselors have to present yourself to the polls each electoral
cycle to win support, aren't you?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So why isn't that good enough for anyone regardless of
their race?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
It is absolutely And this is a choice where those
on the Marii electoral role will actually be able to
see people that they can vote for based on being
on the Marii electoral role, just like they do in
the central elections. And allows us to ensure that there
is a voice that is very clearly Mary and is
not being expected to think in that represent representative voice
(03:22):
about the wider electorates. They can come unapologetically as Marty
then come to the table, where as a collective, we
make decisions about everybody in the district for the future.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, hang on, you're just talking about them coming on
their sort of mari thing, but then talking about how
you come as a collective and make decisions for everyone.
What is it? Is it a narrow focus or is
it a wide focus?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It's both and that's the nuance of local government. We
have representatives come from all walks of life around our communities,
but the power is we come together to govern organizations
where the whole diversity of viewpoints are so vital to
get in good decision making, because if we all think
the same and all have the same background in the
(04:05):
same skill sets, we're just going to make the same
old decisions that are just in an echo chamber. We
need that really strong diversity of voice that clearly reflects
the community to make great decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Are you suggesting that the rest of your council is
just one big blamange of people who are all the same.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I'm saying that the mardy voice is not clear and
not strong in the elected and voting voice that sits
at the table.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What about Pacific Island Voices and other sort of groups.
Do you think that there should be allowances made for
Asian the Asian community or do you think there should
be seats specifically based on how people identify outside of Maridam.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yes, So what we see is people that are looking
to come onto council. There's all sorts of people representing
our communities. There is a slightly different perspective though around
the Marty seats based on te tety or white tonguey
and that they have a role which is very clear
(05:10):
in their monofenera status in our communities and it's very
important that their voice is at the table. There are
other ways that others can come to the table. I'll
give you an example. We have just changed our whole
representation structure, not just a mighty ward where we have
instead of just having a rural ward and an urban ward,
we've actually reduced the number of them tho seats from
(05:33):
four to three and introduced to at large wards to
make it more accessible for those that don't necessarily identify
as rural or urban to be standing to be represented
at council. So we're using all sorts of tools to
help different people get into the diverse mix required for
good decision making.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Where are you at with what happened. What happens if
the Electric decides that it wants to get rid of
the mari wards and just have everyone stand as individuals, well.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That will be the result of the referendum. And there's
quite a few more than a year to go until
that decision needs to be made. I think there's going
to be a lot of conversations at a local and
a national level about this issue as people get themselves
informed as to how they might vote in October. It's
a shame that we have got to this point, particularly
(06:26):
on this kind of representation, when other kinds of representation
don't go to a referendum decision. I think that's unfair
just in itself, but the reality is that's the rules
that have been given to us, and that's what we're
going to go into. And very clearly when I went
to the table personally to make this decision this week,
to reaffirm had had some really specific conversations with our
(06:50):
Manasena and our mighty leaders in our community for them
to be really clear that this was the public conversation
that we wanted to take on, that they were supportive
of wanting to take on the conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I mean it's a sort of very easy vote because
in a way you can vote to maintain this status
quo and then leave it up to the referendum.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Oh that's true. So in Central Hawk's Bay we're one
of eight councils that have got a slightly nuanced position
where we had decided to use a mighty ward representation mechanism,
but it hadn't been put in place at the last election,
so we don't have a mighty ward seat currently at
my council table. And what we have done is reaffirmed
we want to do that in twenty twenty five. We
(07:30):
will have a mighty ward at twenty twenty five and
it will be up for the referendum as well, and
then that will be implemented in twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, I mean, couldn't you just fulfill the sort of
the desire or the wish to have and put from
EWI by having their input on advice on issues and
having them as consultants. Isn't that something I mean that
you could do regardless of whether you have the official
MARRA seats.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Wards for sure, and look we do that, but I've
also seen instances where we go and have both conversations
with our Manifenoa and bring that specific voice in and
then the council table makes a decision which to go
in a direction which is against what that voice from
Mana Fenowa has been. And really clearly the power of
(08:20):
not just having a say like any other stakeholder, but
actually participating in the voting and the final decision making
so that others aren't asserting their view over the top
of it, they're actually actively in the decision making.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So if the referendum goes the way of getting disestablishing
the Maria wards, are you with some of the voices
within local body politics that have said we're going to
ignore it and just carry on anyway.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Oh look, I am the mayor of a small council
in a rural community. We haven't got the means to
be off fighting the government. We will take the rules
as they are written in how we take it forward.
But it's still it's still a difficult thing to have
to do. When we were we had been engaging with
(09:07):
the rules as they were. Now the rules change, we've
got to engage with them in a different way. It's
a frustrating place to be in because it's wasting time
and energy, which is really unfortunate. We've got a huge,
huge infrastructure issues and we really want to be talking
about those. Well.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I guess it's politics, isn't it. But hey, Alex, I
really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks so much, nice
to talk to. Yeah, thank you. That's Alex Walker. She's
the mayor of Central Hawk's Bay. On the referendum, where
are you at with the ref friendom and the presence
of Mari Ward seats? I be honest, I thought that
logically she sort of contradicted this souf a little bit
about talking about individual voices and then you know the
(09:43):
voices that were all of the same voice. I mean,
New Zealand is a diverse country. Here's my quick heart
take before we go to the course. New Zealand's a
diverse country. I'm completely over this idea that it's Mari
versus parkiha and I don't think that the way we
all get on with each other is what New Zealand
is like at all. I think we've been befriending each other.
We've been dating each other, marrying each other, having kids
(10:06):
together with all sorts of cultures. We're a multicultural society
and I just think that this debate where we have
to split things off based on whether you happen to
be Mari or Pakia is just so divisive, and it's
in pushing back against that you're accused of being device yourself,
which is kind of ironic. But I think we are
much more as New Zealanders, integrated and tolerant of each
(10:29):
other than political discussions, which have you believe you'd think
we're at each other's throats all the time, but it
sounds like that when you listen to Parliament and some
of the rhetoric that comes out of it. So for me,
I'd be disestablishing those seats. I think of my hometown.
Tanya taps all there, who's the mayor and who's of
Mari descent. I don't think she had to play that
card in winning the election. All she played was the
(10:50):
card of trust me. I'm competent, I know what I'm doing,
and people went, yes, we're with you. So good on Tanya.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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