December 14, 2024 • 41 mins
This week on Politics Central, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts opens up about the Government's new action plan set to increase the use of hydrogen energy
Later, Fleur Fitzsimmons from the PSA addresses the backlash towards the Government's new working-from-home policies.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It was Crissmussy had a very good afternoon to you.
That was a very mellow introduction into the show with
the pogues. But you know what you can never have?
Can you have too much of the pogues at Christmas time?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I guess all in good measure, So yeah, good. Welcome
to the show on tim Beverage. This is the Weekend
Collective for Sunday, the fifteenth of December, only ten days
until the Big Man slides down your chimney.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Just looking ahead to the show. In a second, I'll
be introducing Politics Central. But looking further ahead to the hub,
we're joined for the final time this year by doctor
Alex Bartell. He's the director of the sleepwelld Clinic, and
we're just going to have a chat about is there
any way of getting over the well gosh, even with
the humidity right now, I'm getting a good night's sleep
when the temperature might not be might might not be
(01:19):
the best in holiday partying and all that sort of thing.
So how do you avoid having disrupted sleep? And also
supplements for sleeping? Is there anything anything you should avoid
do they do any good, because I suspect he's going
to say, well, probably not. Just a last of water
before bedtime maybe and don't drink too much. And then
for smart Money at five o'clock, we're joined by Shane
(01:40):
solely because the Ministry of MB Ministry of Business, Innovation
and Employment. Recently they've said that the government's considering regulatory
changes to enable key we savor providers to increase private
asset investments. So we're going to have a chat about
that and other things with Shane Soley. He's from Harbor
Asset Management. And of course for those hours, as we
(02:01):
will for the last half of this hour, we'll be
taking your calls on eight hundred eighty ten eighty and
text nine to nine two. It's yes, it's now eight
minutes past.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Three Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So oh, by the way, just before we get into
the politics and looking towards this hour and I'm just
a moment, we're going to be having a chat with
Simon Wattson, Minister of Climate Change. There's an announcement around
a hydrogen plan. We're going to dig into that a
little bit. And then after that, flur Phliff at Simon,
she's a solicitor at the Public Service Association. The whole
working from home thing and the revision of the guidelines,
(02:39):
and looks like they're going to be taking some action
because there are some public servants who well they're determined
if they can to work from home as a probably
as an entitlement rather than something that maybe you earn
as you go. So yeah, that's what we'll be talking
about on Politics Central. But also at about three thirty
five is once we finished those two interviews, we're going
(03:00):
to be doing some talkback, So that's your time to
climb into it and have your say. And the question, well,
we might have a chat about the hydrogen but the
big question for talkback, I think is going to be
is working from home a basic right or is it
a privilege? Not just for the public service, to be honest,
But that's going to be the question. We're going to
ask for talkback and we'll take your calls on eight
(03:21):
hundred eighty ten eighty. I just need to check so
in a second we're going to be having a chat
with Simon Watt's I think I saw his number flash up.
We've just seen a bit of a problem with them
with checking in but the the the Lower Mission Hydrogen
(03:41):
Plan has been released and it's it's basically to unlock
private sector investment in hydrogen energy and support New Zealand's
transition to a low emission's economy. And it's been announced
by the Energy Minister, Simeon Brown and also Climate Change
Minister Simon Watts. So we're just going to hopefully check
(04:02):
through to Simon in just a minute, yes, the just
give me two seconds. Yes. So they've released that action
plan and it's basically to make hydrogen energy more easily
accessible in New Zealand. The priority areas include reducing barriers
to consenting hydrogen projects and promoting a cost of effective
and market led transition to a low emissions economy. And
(04:24):
hydrogen it's what we've all heard about hydrogen. We're all
excited about the idea that maybe cars will run on it,
but it's known to be more environmentally friendly alternative to
the use of coal and fossil fuels empowering heavy transport.
And Simon Watts, he's the Minister of Climate Change and
he's with me now. Simon.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Good afternoon, very good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
How are you good things? Hey? I was reading through
the press release around the high around the hydrogen plan,
and in a way it sort of comes across as
quite high level talking about the potential of hydrogen for
the for the most people who are listening. Where does
the rubber hit the road on this, Where are the
tangible effects of this plan are going to be first seen?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
We'll look hydro. It is one of the most abundant
occurring elements that can be used to fuel transportation, both
heavy transport and vehicles. Lots of countries around the world
are embarking on producing key element that you need is
renewable energy. We've got a lot of that and we
want to unlock the ability for the private sector to
invest to produce hydrogen.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Here in New Zealand, there's been some discussion on us
for a few years. I think the previous government we're
looking at some sort of hydrogen plan. Are we a
bit late to the game in New Zealand to hydrogen?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Well, look, you know, Singapore is a good example. They're
currently retooling their port, one of the biggest ports in
the world, to be able to fill ships with ammonia,
which has taken and produced from hydrogen. So I think look,
New Zealand's got it. But the reality is it's a
competitive market and we need to increase the amount of
pace that we're moving at. We're working with the private
(05:58):
sector here in New Zealand. All the big players that
are involved, Toyota, Kondi, all of those companies are already
in involved in hydrogen production overseas, want to start looking
at that in New Zealand, and we're looking to how
we unlock the environment, make it easier to produce it
here in New Zealand and remove some of those roadblocks.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
What is the potential for this once we really get
underway and what sort of time frame do you expect
us to see tangible benefits for industry and our emissions
and all that.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Well, look, we've committed in our action plan that we
want to put through changes in legislation to free up
the regulatory barriers next year in twenty twenty five. We
want to move with pace too, as I said, you know,
unblock those barriers that are slowing private investment down. We're
working with them. They've told us what are the areas
that are they need our help on, and that's what
(06:51):
we're doing in the business.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
What do they need to help on specifically, well, they want.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Us to reduce the barriers for consenting of new projects.
They also want us to make sure that we've got
a regulatory environment, so safety considerations, all of that stuff
when you're introducing new films, making sure that we've got
those in place, and ideally harmonizing, making sure that our
regulatory environment in New Zealanders is similar to those overseas Australia,
(07:16):
you know, US and UK. At the moment, you know,
we haven't got that environment in place, and therefore, you know,
doing business in New Zealanders is a bit harder than
what it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Is this any of this controversial because just from my
reading of it, it seems like something we should be doing.
Maybe we should have been doing it earlier. But is
there any pushback from any particular industry or from the
political side of things.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
No, quite the opposite. You know, when we sat down
with industry and said, look, what can we do to
help work with you to make this cheaper to produce
and easier to produce, they just said, look, we just
want to we want to work together in a partnership
and here's the things that we need help on from government.
We don't need money. We need improvements in the regulatory
environment and consenting in that. The other big thing that
(08:03):
we're seeing overseas and and Nausia is particularly is that
you know, we've got an abundant source of renewable energy
capability here in New Zealand. If you fast forward ten
years from now, you know we're already producing hydrogen today,
but we could produce more hydrogen than what we actually
domestically need. And you know that provides us options in
terms of the energy market scenario. This is quite an
(08:23):
exciting area and again there's a lot of new stuff
coming through. We're not, as I said, into picking winners,
but we are into making sure that we reduce the
barriers for private investment.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What are the industries that are going to most benefit
from this.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, heavy transports one that's already in play in New Zealand.
We've already got hydrogen hybrid trucks operating in New Zealand.
We're actually producing more hydrogen than what we can use
at the moment, and so there's a big program of
trying to look to do that. You've got some big
truck players, particularly in the South Island, that are embarking
on that and Actually, you know, Toyota's got a couple
(08:58):
of vehicles I think already in the market. The Mirror,
that's a passenger vehicle, takes about six kilos of hydrogen
that goes about six hundred and fifty k's and it costs,
you know, around just over eighty bucks to fill a
tank up. Obviously we haven't got the filling stations all
across at the moment, but it's just an example of
where this can work in that sector as well. And
(09:20):
of course it's a it's a clean, clean energy. The
emissions profile is very, very low in comparison to fossil fuel.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Actually, there was something I read about we talk about
green hydrogen, so because the hydrogen is produced from renewable resources,
and then there's blue and turquoise. What what the hell are.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
They There's actually six different colors, and you know, after
Sunday afternoon, I don't think they want to get too
caught up in it, but you're right green green is
made out of renewable electricity. You get blue, which is
made sometimes there's an off take from the production of
(10:00):
carbon dioxide, you know, in terms of some of the
mining or fertilizer factories and there's a whole lot of
other colors depending on how it's extracted, including that that's
naturally occurring you extract it from the ground. Yeah, of
course that's white. Surprisingly Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So actually, in terms of the advice, hydrogen has always
seemed like it's sort of sound like one of these
things in the future that's going to be really promising,
even for private transport. What's the advice you're getting about
how as you say you talk about Toyota, what is
the advice because you would be getting the latest and
greatest information around. I guess what the transport industry can
(10:36):
do when it comes to private mode vehicles. What's you know,
where's that going to sit with evs? Do you think
hydrogen Do you think it's going to be the dominant
player in the end?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Well, look, I just think it comes in as another option.
It's particularly useful in heavy transport, specialty vehicles and also shipping.
So you think about how we're going to power the
big cargo ships that go from Singapore to New Zealand
in the future, they're going to be running on ammonia
or which is produced via the hydrogen process. Also, some
(11:04):
of the big minds already Forteskew in the in the
Australia are already using the big diggers and loaders are
already hydrogen powered. And actually a lot of that tech's
actually coming from New Zealand tech businesses based in christ Church.
Actually they are producing the stuff that is allowing those
big companies to take up hydrogen. So industry are also
(11:26):
using it in terms of processed heat as well, and
power industry as well. You can use it for backup
generation as well, and of course export and export's the
one you've got career Japan, they've got an energy shortage
and they're already doing contracts with country around purchase of
hydrogen and you can think a decade from now, you know,
(11:48):
that's that's pretty exciting option in the mix for the
New Zealand economy and it creates a whole lot of
new jobs and jobs.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Just to be a little bit mischievous, it's not something
that Winston's looking for the fairies. It's not going to
surprise us with this wonderful announcement of green fairies or something.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I wouldn't want to speculate on that, but I'm pretty
sure that I'm pretty sure that that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No, okay, okay, I don't want to get my home.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Just last one, the safety aspect. How careful do we
are we going to have to be in terms of
the regulations and balancing safety because when hydrogen goes wrong,
it goes very wrong, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yeah, Look, we've got to go through and that's you know,
that's a regulatory environment that we wouldn't put in place.
As I say, we're not first movers. Countries like Australia
have already got the regulatory environment in place. Our role
is to make sure that we've got in an environment
that's safe, that's practical, and actually get that in place
as fast possible. One of the gaps is that we
haven't got some of that reglatory environment in post in
(12:46):
place right now, which is holding back investment. So we're
going to we're going to replicate what's world class and
best practice and get on with it.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I did say last question, but I FI so how
long is it going to take to get this regulatory
framework in place so we can really start making a
difference with what we need to do with hydrogen.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yeah, action plan that we put out we're targeting pretty much.
Q three twenty five or take. In terms of that,
we want to have some early views of that pretty
much in the first or second quarter. We're working closely
with industry around that, and I think it's just a
good example of government working with industry, playing to our
strengths and also unblocking the pipe for them so that
(13:24):
they can get on and produce this at a lower cost,
because that's the other thing. You know, you want to
be able to produce this this hydrogen at a cost
price that makes it economically feasible. And if we can
remove some of the red tape and green tape, then
you know that's going to help.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Actually, because I was just thinking you probably have. You'd
be getting a bit of support from Chloe Swarbrock and
the Greens on this too, wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Well, look, I think you know across the aisle politically,
you know, other parties have looked at this in the past.
I guess the key difference is we're getting on and
doing the doing right and you know, this is an
example of just another area where we're cracking on and
making it happen. And I think it's positive, positive for
our economy but also positive for our climate.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Good stuff good luck and enjoy your Christmas break. Simon,
thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
No, thanks to him.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
There we go. That's Simon. What's he's a Minister of
climate change. Look, you know, as I say, all this
stuff's going to happen in the future. But I love
the idea for hydrogen and the potential for it. I
think often we get distracted by what it can do
for our private vehicles and whether that's going to be
the future instead of evs and all that. But when
you hear about the trucks and the heavy sort of
industry uses of hydrogen, maybe it is quite an exciting announcement.
(14:31):
So yeah, gets stuck country. You can't text your feedback
anytime on this. By the way, we'll be back in
just a moment. The PSA they're going to be having
a crack at the government because the government's new guidelines
are having a look at the working from home rights,
entitlements whatever. So Flufit's Simons. She's a solicitor for the PSA.
She's going to be joining us in just a moment.
It's twenty one past three News talk z B. Yes,
(14:53):
welcome back to the show. Actually, I was trying to
think of when hydrogen goes badly wrong, and somebody texted
me saying it goes back to the Hindenburg disaster. I
think that was hydrogen basically, Yes, that obviously was an
example of I think hydrogen going very badly wrong. But
there we go. Anyway, Look, the government has issued new
guidance for public servants wanting to work from home. Public
(15:15):
Service Commissioner Sir Brian Roche says the new guidance makes
it clear that working from home is not an entitlement
and that it will help support a high performance culture.
The guidance does not mean public servants can't work from home,
but the PSA says it's a far far cry from
the gender paygap principles restricting mum's abilities to work flexibil
(15:35):
around children and simons. She's a solicitor from the PSA
and she's with me now, good afternoon, Good afternoon. So
what's the basis of your case against what the government
want to do with their guidance.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Well, really, what happened does many years ago is PSA
in the government and the accounts of trade unions actually
agreed to an approach to ending gender based inequalities in
the public sector. So there are a whole lot of
principles agreed to, and one of them was that agencies
(16:10):
normalize flexible and part time working arrangements. So we thought
we had that agreed, we thought it was sorted, and
actually what we've seen is the gender pay gap come
down and more women and senior positions, so we thought
we were on the right track. So really it came
out of the blue for the government to attempt to
revoke those principles and not try and carry on on
(16:31):
this process that we'd already agreed with them. So really
the basis of our claim is we have an existing
agreement agencies must normalize flexible work, including written from home,
and now they're breaching that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So when it talks about I keep here seeing the
word guidance and guidelines, which reminds me of parts of
the Caribbean. They're more like guidelines. Is that if they're
not really that locked in stone, I mean, how how
binding is guidance?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Yeah, that's a really important question because this doesn't affect
the whole host of arrangements that people have in place
and have agreed between their employer and the worker now
and in some cases those are reflected in their actual
written employment agreement. But what it does change is the
nature of the availability of flexible work or working from home.
(17:22):
The previous approach was that it needed to be normalized.
Their guidance at that time talks about it. If not,
why not? So if you can't do it, let's look
into that. And it also says that leaders will be
champions of working from home, and we know the reasons
for that, that the benefits are really strong for the workers,
(17:43):
but also our surveys have shown that they're really good
for employers as well. People are able to concentrate more,
they get more work done, and they say it improves
the workplace culture too.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I did have a look at the survey that was
from public service people responding to how much they enjoyed
working from home and the benefits. But it's hardly subjective,
isn't it. If you like working from home, you're going
to say how wonderful it is. So how much can
we really rely on that survey apart from it being
something that people like to have because it's easier for them.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Well, I think the fact that employers weren't looking to
revoke working from home arrangements. They know that it benefits
both workers and the employer. It was really only because
the government decided to adopt what I think is quite
a performative act in releasing new guidelines and really continuing
its painting of public servants as somehow inferior or taking
(18:36):
from the taxpayer instead of loyal people who are committed
to working hard in the interests of us all every day.
It was really sort of the politics of the government
beating up on public servants, I think, more than what
it meant for employers.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Nicola Willis has said that there is still the ability
to work from home where it doesn't compromise performance. So
where's the problem. In a way, so if you can
prove your performance doesn't compromise, you're okay, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Well.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I think that's as have shift from normalizing it and
making sure that people can access it to a very
restrictive idea that it only can work in limited circumstances.
So it's really the tone and approach and what that
means for how agencies then try to enact this guidance.
So what we're worried about is that there might be
(19:24):
a whole bunch of people that have existing and forcible
arrangements to work from home, but new people coming through,
particularly women, particularly people with disabilities or chronic health conditions,
won't be able to access them in the different environment.
And look, what we know as well is that many
parents who have children who are sort of unwow but
(19:44):
don't need constant supervision, or working people themselves who are
sort of contagious but can do a bit of work
or work from home. And what we're already hearing is
that they're setting getting themselves and their employers and thinking, well,
I can't do this because of the new environment. Therefore
I just take suickly.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I mean, how much of this can we trust that
can be worked out between managers? And I mean the
managers might be the ones one to work from home,
of course, but you know, the people in charge of
each area of the public service, where you know, you
prove that you're reliable, you're doing good work, and your
boss can say, right, look, I don't mind you're working
from home two or three days a week. I mean,
can we not rely on just sort of common, sort
(20:23):
of reasonable reasonableness and this with the relationships between workers
and their own managers?
Speaker 5 (20:30):
Yeah, I really hope so. And we do know that
a number of people have existing working from home arrangements
that are contractually agreed. They're binding, and they will carry on.
But what we're really worried about is the culture and
change for new people or for people in situations where
they had sort of arrangements but they weren't formalized into
(20:51):
a binding agreement. So we're really worried about the shift
I guess and tone and approach. And what we do
know is that public agencies take their responsibilities to comply
with this guidance quite seriously. So we're also seeing all
ready a bit of overreach. So they're going a step
further than they sort of need to, and that's undermining it.
And look, it's not just public sector employers. Since we
(21:13):
filed this litigation, I've had an outpouring of response from
people that work in the private sector as well, and
they're some thing, please continue with this case, Please argue
it because it's really important for us. And actually some
of those people are from employers as well, so it's
not just an issue for workers.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Okay, it's putting aside the public side of things. Of course,
there are thousands of public servants who literally cannot work
from home. Because they are public facing. I think of
a rung of Tamarikian wins and a whole lot of
areas in the public service. So isn't this case if
I'm going to play Devil's advocate, isn't this just about
protecting a bit of a privileged for a privileged class
(21:54):
of public servants who aren't required to be front facing
to interface with the public.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Well, no one denies that there are some roles that
working from home just cannot work for. If you look
at corrections officers, they just can't work from home. It's
not possible. Similarly with ordo antibody social workers, although to
a degree, aspects of that are possible. But it's really
about where it is possible, where it is appropriate, creating
(22:23):
that climate that it's normalized and that it's enabled.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Also, the other thing, I know, you've made it a
sort of gender pay gap issue. I have seen a
comment that it's just you're in danger of reinforcing those
traditional gender roles when you're talking about women, when in
fact we're trying to sort of get away from that,
aren't we. Isn't it sort of a is it a
bit of a catch twenty two that you're saying you're generalizing, saying, well,
(22:49):
of course the impacts on mums forgetting that dads might
do it as well. And I'm not trying to be
too clever here, but you know, there would be an
argument can be mounted quite passionately about the reinforcing of
these traditional gender roles.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yeah, no, you're right, and I think that argument came
from Nikola Willis herself, oh, who challenged me to expect
better for our daughters. But what I would say is
we're dealing with the situation as it is now, and
the situation as it is now is that women take
on a disproportionate amount of parenting and caring responsibilities. But look,
if we're successful, ultimately this will impact on men who
(23:26):
do that as well. So it will be a good
thing for women, but it will be a good thing
for men who take on caring responsibilities, whether that's children,
elderly parents, or other people.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
What are we talking about. We're talking about fighting for
the right to work from home all the time. Were
we just talking about the ability to work from home
as a mix of your workplace sort of attendance.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
What we're really talking about is that normalizing it and
agencies becoming champions of it. We're not advocating for roles
to be working from home all the time. There are
real benefits in being in the workforce, being in the workplace,
interacting with colleagues, learning from colleagues. But really this is
about saying, where it can happen, let's try and enable
(24:09):
it to happen and just make people's lives a little
bit easier. And the reality is that actually a whole
bunch of these public service agencies have downsized their officers
on the basis that a chunk of their workforce work
from home, so it's not even very practical for them
to change their approach anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
What's the timeline for the legal action do you think
to get this resolved?
Speaker 5 (24:30):
So the other side, so to Carl Mattahal, the Public
Service Commission have fourteen days from the day we filed
it to put their response. We think it's then likely
will be referred to mediation and if that doesn't resolve
the matter, then we will go to a hearing before
the Employment Relations Authority sometime next year.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Okay, hey filer, thanks very much for your time. I
really appreciate it, and I hope you have a little
bit of time off over Christmas despite all this legal stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Yeah, definitely good one.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay, thanks very much. That's flipp That Simons's solicited for
the PSA. We'd like you feedback on this because my
big question is what did the public feel about this?
Should public servants be allowed to work from home? Is
it a basic right or a privilege? And it does
extend to the private sector as well. Of course, a
feed on musk was here in running the public sector,
everyone would be in at the office, wouldn't he because
(25:22):
and there is a bit of a move in terms
of the public will for people to get back to work.
I'll be honest, I'm sort of a little bit this
is I did ask a question as to whether this
was an argument around a privileged class of public servants
who don't have to public interface in the same way
that plenty of other people do. I can hear all
the private sector people and also those who have to
(25:45):
interface with the public who don't have that choice, thinking, Oh,
it's nice for you, isn't it. So is it really
a gender issue? Do you support it? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two and you
can email to I don't worry about the email. We're
doing calls and texts right now, so we'll be back
in just a moment. Do you support this action by
the public service defending the right to work from home?
What do you think, Get back into the office, do
(26:07):
the job. Back in the moment, it's twenty five minutes
to four news talks. He'd be.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Rug ram Christmas tree and Christmas party, little to where
you can see and as to start.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Les, welcome back to the weekend collective. Yeah, we like
to keep you know, just keep the couples of warmer
during my mind, you're not gonna need any warming than
this weather in Auckland. It's a stinking hot. It's like
in the middle of January. Anyway. Taking your feedback on
the working from home thing, there's lots of texts. I'm
gonna get into some of the corresponds. Actually I will
just address quickly. Somebody's there's been a few text he
said us at for flirfit. Someone's who was Labor Canada
(26:49):
or MP and therefore that's a reason to discredit her.
And actually no, no, I think we've got to deal
with the arguments on this. Here's my take on it,
and you know, there's two there's the gut reaction you
have to this, and I guess my gut reaction to
the working from home is that it's sort of a
bit of a luxury for those who can work from home,
and so I have personally don't really have much sympathy
(27:12):
if you have to get back into the office, because
there are so many people who are required by virtue
of their job descriptions that they need to be in
the office. Whether you work in I mean people who
work in the public health service, people who work in
the hospitals, people of firemen, policemen or anga tamiki workers, wins,
there's so many occupations, builders, plumbers, anyone who has to Yeah,
(27:35):
it's sort of if you have the luxury of sitting
on your bottom for work, then great, but it is
difficult to get the From my point of view, I
sort of I struggle to have sympathy, although if I
was in that situation, I could argue why I should
be able to work from home because I can do
it efficiently and all that sort of thing. But you
should treat those surveys with a grain of salt, because
(27:56):
when the public service sector surveys its own members saying,
how do you find working at home? Are you efficient?
Of course they're going to go, oh, I'm amazing when
I work from home. It's so can veens. I'm really productive.
I don't have any eruptions. But yeah, here's a few texts.
And then we've got a caller who wants to have
a chat about the hydrogen side of things. Somebody says, yes,
(28:17):
but by the business first. Otherwise, do as your boss
tells you or resign. Yep, work from home means actually
work from home, not be at home. Some employers, employers
I know, hate it as they know they're being had
on great in theory each Year's Dave. I think the
thing is if you're a good manager and you can
and you can outline expectations and what you what you
(28:37):
want your team to be doing, then technically it shouldn't
really be an issue for you. If you no good
at managing expectations and performance outcomes, then probably you won't
like working from home because you like to keep tabs
on people when they're in the office. Another person tim
get back in the office if you don't want to
go find another If you don't want to go find
another woke employee, preferably not paid by the tax payer.
(29:01):
Another one, do not support us an absolute privilege to
work from home public service forget how their salaries are funded.
They don't like their work expectations. Patrick looks out look elsewhere.
I think this ties into what flurit. Simon says, it's
a bit of a performative act by Nichola Willis painting
public service servants in a sort of negative light. Mark
(29:21):
says spot On comment, this is elitism and snobby nonsense.
Get to the office, Tim, simple, you work where your
employer says you work. Don't like it, resigns his herman
M And there's a few there's a few selections of feedback.
I've got truckloads of texts, but we got room to
take some calls if you like. On eight hundred eighty
(29:41):
ten eighty Richard, Hello, how are you going? I'm all right,
how are you?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I'm finding choice of music FIRS stuff was interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Uh what the pogues, Well, it was a bit slow
getting into it. We should have wound forward and got
into the chorus.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Shouldn't we Yeah, we see his band on British radio. Okay, well,
but but they can play records no, Actually, CARDI b
seeing a better by I found about find about hydrogen.
What sort of hydrogen we're going to produce and how
are we going to produce it? Two questions I have.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Well, you're not talking to an expert on this, but
it's going to be it's going to be I guess
powered by renewable energy. So yeah, that's that's as much
as I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Well, at present, we're making green hydrogen for Japan out
of geothermal stations in the North Island, and to make
up for the short form of our own electricity, we're
importing very polluting Indonesian cold mined by slave labor.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Don't Yeah, I don't actually know how that works. It
does It does sound like if we are making hydrogen.
Maybe it's because as hydrogen, once you've made it, does
it produce? Can you get more energy out of it?
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I don't produce it. To produce one kid a lot
of hydrogen, you need three kill lots of energy. It's
a very inefficient means of saving and power. And yes,
it is the most abundant fuel on the planet. But
you can't find it. There's very good places you can
find it normally, and you've actually got to draw on
the ground and remove it as a as fossil fuel.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, I can't answer your question on that. But now
the question that we are using green Field to ship
hydrogen elsewhere and yet we end up premium. Yeah, I
don't quite understand that myself either, but it might be
able to.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
But okay, the main place that Labor was going to
produce its main hydrogen producing producing plant, Pinary said, polluting
plant there, Their main plant was in central Southland as
far away from the sea as you can get, and
sitting on top of a lignite mine. What would you
do minor lignite and make making lignite into hydrogen. It's
(31:52):
called brown hydrogen. It's f filthy.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, well he didn't know that. There's apparently there's six colors,
as he said, but ours is all green hydrogen that
we'd be.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Looking at if you got at t y point. They
produce brown hydrogen, the gray high ydrogen. Okay, their for
their processes. Well, why isn't this maniflatable for discussion or
open debate?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh, look, sort of probably would if you're talking to
an expert on this stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
But if we can you were talking to But if
we can if.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
We can create it using I guess green or turquoise,
will blue, rosen or whatever, but that where it is
coming from a new renewable energy. Do you have a
problem with that? Do you like the idea of the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Future find renewable energy for a start?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Okay, well, well yeah, I mean I'm not going to
be able to have that discussion with you, Richard. But
if they can do it renewable energy, and I guess
this is where the opposition, the Greens, will need to
challenge them in Parliament because that's where the debate will
be had. But thanks for your call. Lots more texts
on the In fact, I'm scrolling through the correspondence right
(32:53):
now to see if there's anyone who supports the PSA's action.
Of course, if you're public service work, you probably are
supporting it. But in two of the corresponds to this show,
I cannot find a single person who who doesn't think
that people, if there asked to, should just get back
(33:14):
to the office. Hi, Tim, I don't agree with this
action as what about the office space we the taxpayer
are paying for. Well, I mean, I'm not sure if
that's really part of the argument, because you have to
have the office space because people aren't going to work
from home three and sixty five days a year. Not
(33:35):
that they're working three and sixty five days a year anyway.
I think, what would it be forty five weeks forty
six weeks times five whatever that arithmetic amounts to, Tom,
I'm getting older and i'd really like to work part
time in my role at my employer. I won't have
a bar of it. I'd like to see more job
share roles or halftime rolls. Could out new ret graduates
getting to jobs too. Something slightly unrelated, but yep related.
(33:57):
I mostly heard about how hi Tim. I mostly heard
about how working from home suits the employees, not so
much about the value for money for the employer. And
that's from someone just simply signed taxpayer, Hi Tim. If
work performance can be measured online, I don't see a problem,
except commercial office owners wouldn't like it with low sales
(34:19):
and leasing demand, says Mike. Tell the lazies, I won't
read this exactly. Tell the lazy so and so is
to go to work like everyone else. The elite can
work at home, but people who do the real graft, Sorry,
you have to go to work. I think that that's
probably one of the I think that's probably one of
the one of the bars to getting a huge amount
(34:40):
of public support for this. Isn't there hi, senior manager
in the public ministry? Oh, this is who's writing it's
swung too far setting meetings for people that used to
be a five minute desk chat. People refusing to come
into the office to talk to managers start asking what
they're doing, what they're doing from home, and the complaints
(35:01):
about bullying start. Then the PSA step in. It's a nightmare.
So there's someone from within the public service who's a
senior manager who wants people to get their butts back
into the office. Working from home is not a right
get back to the office. Tell my doubt where the
most government head officers have enough space for their staff
they need to get them to work from home and
a roster Well that's just speculation. I'm sure they've got
(35:24):
room for them. And that's pretty much it on the feedback.
We've got time for a little more if you'd like to,
but we're going to take a quick moment. But if
you want to give us a call eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty, yeah, we'll be back in just to
take it. It's twelve minutes to four news Talk, said B.
I thing to look like us moment everywhere you go.
(35:52):
Let's welcome back to newstalk s B the weekend, collect
a little more feedback on the on the working from
home thing that in fact, there's a hell of a
lot more feedback. Yeah, I think that even the one
message we got from Public Service was that was a
little bit against it as well, just from the point
of view of just trying to manage staff who's expectations
(36:13):
pretty hard to manage, I think. Anyway, there was something
else that somebody texted me about that, mentioning that in
the UK there are shows in radio where the hosts
are broadcasting from their own homes and brilliant sound qualities,
et cetera, et cetera, and it actually raises that thing,
I wouldn't like to really broadcast this show from home
because to me, it's a question of I think, getting
(36:36):
into the environment of the newsroom and being able to
have conversations ad hoc or planned or otherwise or whatever
with your colleagues and the whole work culture thing. In fact,
that was one question I meant to put to Flur
Simon's but it wasn't you know, the most wasn't the
most important question to ask. But there is something also
(36:57):
just about the cultural workplaces, and I think that that
is actually a really important one. Having a workplace where
people know each other for start, I mean, where you
see just the power of human contact from a point
of view of work performance and culture and all that
sort of thing. I don't think it's to be underestimated.
(37:19):
And that's why. I mean I have had times and
when I broadcast from home, they've got some equipment they
can send out. I think it was when I was
back in the COVID days and if you got seck
then and you couldn't go into the office, but you
could still broadcast. And I loathed it, to be honest.
I mean it was cute for an afternoon where you're like,
guess what, I'm sitting in my office at home and
I'm broadcasting around New Zealand. Isn't that amazing? But for me,
(37:41):
I actually think that that it's one of the things
that has been missing from society as a connection with
each other. And I think that's just as important when
it comes to the workplace and the teams you work within,
and there's only so far you can develop that when
you're staring down a zoom camera. And so I actually
do think that that is a genuinely legitimate concern for
any workplace. And I'm no fan of Elon Musk, right,
(38:03):
but when he said everyone get your butts back to work,
I sort of like, yeah, I'm sort of with him
a little bit. So also does remind me, as I said,
it is a sort of an issue for the privileged
sort of worker who doesn't have to interface with the public.
Reminds me of that mighty Python sketch about you can
always do the luxury sketch about something lucxturally. Oh, you
were lucky we had to work in all these other
(38:25):
different situations. Anyway, thank you for all your feedback. A
couple more texts to wrap it up. Is it not
part of a flexible working arrangement as a reasonable discussion
with your employer? Well, the first part of that text
is pretty much says what I said, and then they
go on to misquote me on something. But yeah, that's
(38:46):
I mean as flurfit. Simon's even acknowledged he said, ideally
you do want it to be a cult. It's something
that you work out with your manager that from time
to time you might work from home based on the
fact that you have proven yourself to be reliable, high
performing employee, and away you go. Tim don't agree with
this action as what about the office space question? Hi,
(39:06):
if I was a boss paying staff to work from home,
either a pay cut or no job helps pay for
the empty office space. And after forty years in the
sun and raining construction, I certainly don't feel I'm lazy
or entitled by working online in my home in my sixties.
Well no, as I said, you know, that just points
out that everyone has a different experience and high term
I'm a public servant. Many departments have substantially less floor
(39:29):
space than the number of employees. It accounts for sickness annual,
even working from home often at around eighty percent. Those
who work from home at times are prioritized ie eg.
Spreading working from home and the office, so there's no overflow.
I'm agnostic, but thought i'd pass a sign. Good on you.
I always love a bit of agnosticism as well. Right,
that wraps it up for politics. Thank you for all
(39:50):
your text feedback. There was a few, quite a few
I didn't manage to get to but I appreciate taking
the time to get in touch. Don't forget just looking
a little bit further ahead to the show and Smart Money.
At five o'clock, we have to be a chat about
Key We Saber, how there are some regulatory changes in
neighboring enabling key We Saber providers to increase their private
(40:11):
asset investments and what that's going to look like. And
next the Health Hub. Dr Alex Bartell's joining us. He's
the director of the Sleep welld Clinic. I'm already having
trouble sleeping because it's so bliming hot at night, got
the fan going, all that bed clothes are off. What
else can I do? Any problems you've got with sleep,
you can give us a call. Oh wait, one hundred
eighty ten eighty. We'll be back with the Health Hub
(40:33):
in just a moment. It's coming up to four minutes
to four news talks. There bar.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
Inside a girl and you're going to bom because you
(41:11):
know it don't.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
Matter anyway, and you can aloud, Oh man, buddy, you
can loud the more man, buddy, it's a bitch girl,
don't you bom because you know it don't matter anyway.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It was Crissmussy had a very good afternoon to you.
That was a very mellow introduction into the show with
the pogues. But you know what you can never have?
Can you have too much of the pogues at Christmas time?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I guess all in good measure, So yeah, good. Welcome
to the show on tim Beverage. This is the Weekend
Collective for Sunday, the fifteenth of December, only ten days
until the Big Man slides down your chimney.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Just looking ahead to the show. In a second, I'll
be introducing Politics Central. But looking further ahead to the hub,
we're joined for the final time this year by doctor
Alex Bartell. He's the director of the sleepwelld Clinic, and
we're just going to have a chat about is there
any way of getting over the well gosh, even with
the humidity right now, I'm getting a good night's sleep
when the temperature might not be might might not be
(01:19):
the best in holiday partying and all that sort of thing.
So how do you avoid having disrupted sleep? And also
supplements for sleeping? Is there anything anything you should avoid
do they do any good, because I suspect he's going
to say, well, probably not. Just a last of water
before bedtime maybe and don't drink too much. And then
for smart Money at five o'clock, we're joined by Shane
(01:40):
solely because the Ministry of MB Ministry of Business, Innovation
and Employment. Recently they've said that the government's considering regulatory
changes to enable key we savor providers to increase private
asset investments. So we're going to have a chat about
that and other things with Shane Soley. He's from Harbor
Asset Management. And of course for those hours, as we
(02:01):
will for the last half of this hour, we'll be
taking your calls on eight hundred eighty ten eighty and
text nine to nine two. It's yes, it's now eight
minutes past.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Three Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So oh, by the way, just before we get into
the politics and looking towards this hour and I'm just
a moment, we're going to be having a chat with
Simon Wattson, Minister of Climate Change. There's an announcement around
a hydrogen plan. We're going to dig into that a
little bit. And then after that, flur Phliff at Simon,
she's a solicitor at the Public Service Association. The whole
working from home thing and the revision of the guidelines,
(02:39):
and looks like they're going to be taking some action
because there are some public servants who well they're determined
if they can to work from home as a probably
as an entitlement rather than something that maybe you earn
as you go. So yeah, that's what we'll be talking
about on Politics Central. But also at about three thirty
five is once we finished those two interviews, we're going
(03:00):
to be doing some talkback, So that's your time to
climb into it and have your say. And the question, well,
we might have a chat about the hydrogen but the
big question for talkback, I think is going to be
is working from home a basic right or is it
a privilege? Not just for the public service, to be honest,
But that's going to be the question. We're going to
ask for talkback and we'll take your calls on eight
(03:21):
hundred eighty ten eighty. I just need to check so
in a second we're going to be having a chat
with Simon Watt's I think I saw his number flash up.
We've just seen a bit of a problem with them
with checking in but the the the Lower Mission Hydrogen
(03:41):
Plan has been released and it's it's basically to unlock
private sector investment in hydrogen energy and support New Zealand's
transition to a low emission's economy. And it's been announced
by the Energy Minister, Simeon Brown and also Climate Change
Minister Simon Watts. So we're just going to hopefully check
(04:02):
through to Simon in just a minute, yes, the just
give me two seconds. Yes. So they've released that action
plan and it's basically to make hydrogen energy more easily
accessible in New Zealand. The priority areas include reducing barriers
to consenting hydrogen projects and promoting a cost of effective
and market led transition to a low emissions economy. And
(04:24):
hydrogen it's what we've all heard about hydrogen. We're all
excited about the idea that maybe cars will run on it,
but it's known to be more environmentally friendly alternative to
the use of coal and fossil fuels empowering heavy transport.
And Simon Watts, he's the Minister of Climate Change and
he's with me now. Simon.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Good afternoon, very good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
How are you good things? Hey? I was reading through
the press release around the high around the hydrogen plan,
and in a way it sort of comes across as
quite high level talking about the potential of hydrogen for
the for the most people who are listening. Where does
the rubber hit the road on this, Where are the
tangible effects of this plan are going to be first seen?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
We'll look hydro. It is one of the most abundant
occurring elements that can be used to fuel transportation, both
heavy transport and vehicles. Lots of countries around the world
are embarking on producing key element that you need is
renewable energy. We've got a lot of that and we
want to unlock the ability for the private sector to
invest to produce hydrogen.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Here in New Zealand, there's been some discussion on us
for a few years. I think the previous government we're
looking at some sort of hydrogen plan. Are we a
bit late to the game in New Zealand to hydrogen?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Well, look, you know, Singapore is a good example. They're
currently retooling their port, one of the biggest ports in
the world, to be able to fill ships with ammonia,
which has taken and produced from hydrogen. So I think look,
New Zealand's got it. But the reality is it's a
competitive market and we need to increase the amount of
pace that we're moving at. We're working with the private
(05:58):
sector here in New Zealand. All the big players that
are involved, Toyota, Kondi, all of those companies are already
in involved in hydrogen production overseas, want to start looking
at that in New Zealand, and we're looking to how
we unlock the environment, make it easier to produce it
here in New Zealand and remove some of those roadblocks.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
What is the potential for this once we really get
underway and what sort of time frame do you expect
us to see tangible benefits for industry and our emissions
and all that.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Well, look, we've committed in our action plan that we
want to put through changes in legislation to free up
the regulatory barriers next year in twenty twenty five. We
want to move with pace too, as I said, you know,
unblock those barriers that are slowing private investment down. We're
working with them. They've told us what are the areas
that are they need our help on, and that's what
(06:51):
we're doing in the business.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
What do they need to help on specifically, well, they want.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Us to reduce the barriers for consenting of new projects.
They also want us to make sure that we've got
a regulatory environment, so safety considerations, all of that stuff
when you're introducing new films, making sure that we've got
those in place, and ideally harmonizing, making sure that our
regulatory environment in New Zealanders is similar to those overseas Australia,
(07:16):
you know, US and UK. At the moment, you know,
we haven't got that environment in place, and therefore, you know,
doing business in New Zealanders is a bit harder than
what it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Is this any of this controversial because just from my
reading of it, it seems like something we should be doing.
Maybe we should have been doing it earlier. But is
there any pushback from any particular industry or from the
political side of things.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
No, quite the opposite. You know, when we sat down
with industry and said, look, what can we do to
help work with you to make this cheaper to produce
and easier to produce, they just said, look, we just
want to we want to work together in a partnership
and here's the things that we need help on from government.
We don't need money. We need improvements in the regulatory
environment and consenting in that. The other big thing that
(08:03):
we're seeing overseas and and Nausia is particularly is that
you know, we've got an abundant source of renewable energy
capability here in New Zealand. If you fast forward ten
years from now, you know we're already producing hydrogen today,
but we could produce more hydrogen than what we actually
domestically need. And you know that provides us options in
terms of the energy market scenario. This is quite an
(08:23):
exciting area and again there's a lot of new stuff
coming through. We're not, as I said, into picking winners,
but we are into making sure that we reduce the
barriers for private investment.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What are the industries that are going to most benefit
from this.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, heavy transports one that's already in play in New Zealand.
We've already got hydrogen hybrid trucks operating in New Zealand.
We're actually producing more hydrogen than what we can use
at the moment, and so there's a big program of
trying to look to do that. You've got some big
truck players, particularly in the South Island, that are embarking
on that and Actually, you know, Toyota's got a couple
(08:58):
of vehicles I think already in the market. The Mirror,
that's a passenger vehicle, takes about six kilos of hydrogen
that goes about six hundred and fifty k's and it costs,
you know, around just over eighty bucks to fill a
tank up. Obviously we haven't got the filling stations all
across at the moment, but it's just an example of
where this can work in that sector as well. And
(09:20):
of course it's a it's a clean, clean energy. The
emissions profile is very, very low in comparison to fossil fuel.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Actually, there was something I read about we talk about
green hydrogen, so because the hydrogen is produced from renewable resources,
and then there's blue and turquoise. What what the hell are.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
They There's actually six different colors, and you know, after
Sunday afternoon, I don't think they want to get too
caught up in it, but you're right green green is
made out of renewable electricity. You get blue, which is
made sometimes there's an off take from the production of
(10:00):
carbon dioxide, you know, in terms of some of the
mining or fertilizer factories and there's a whole lot of
other colors depending on how it's extracted, including that that's
naturally occurring you extract it from the ground. Yeah, of
course that's white. Surprisingly Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So actually, in terms of the advice, hydrogen has always
seemed like it's sort of sound like one of these
things in the future that's going to be really promising,
even for private transport. What's the advice you're getting about
how as you say you talk about Toyota, what is
the advice because you would be getting the latest and
greatest information around. I guess what the transport industry can
(10:36):
do when it comes to private mode vehicles. What's you know,
where's that going to sit with evs? Do you think
hydrogen Do you think it's going to be the dominant
player in the end?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Well, look, I just think it comes in as another option.
It's particularly useful in heavy transport, specialty vehicles and also shipping.
So you think about how we're going to power the
big cargo ships that go from Singapore to New Zealand
in the future, they're going to be running on ammonia
or which is produced via the hydrogen process. Also, some
(11:04):
of the big minds already Forteskew in the in the
Australia are already using the big diggers and loaders are
already hydrogen powered. And actually a lot of that tech's
actually coming from New Zealand tech businesses based in christ Church.
Actually they are producing the stuff that is allowing those
big companies to take up hydrogen. So industry are also
(11:26):
using it in terms of processed heat as well, and
power industry as well. You can use it for backup
generation as well, and of course export and export's the
one you've got career Japan, they've got an energy shortage
and they're already doing contracts with country around purchase of
hydrogen and you can think a decade from now, you know,
(11:48):
that's that's pretty exciting option in the mix for the
New Zealand economy and it creates a whole lot of
new jobs and jobs.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Just to be a little bit mischievous, it's not something
that Winston's looking for the fairies. It's not going to
surprise us with this wonderful announcement of green fairies or something.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I wouldn't want to speculate on that, but I'm pretty
sure that I'm pretty sure that that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No, okay, okay, I don't want to get my home.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Just last one, the safety aspect. How careful do we
are we going to have to be in terms of
the regulations and balancing safety because when hydrogen goes wrong,
it goes very wrong, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yeah, Look, we've got to go through and that's you know,
that's a regulatory environment that we wouldn't put in place.
As I say, we're not first movers. Countries like Australia
have already got the regulatory environment in place. Our role
is to make sure that we've got in an environment
that's safe, that's practical, and actually get that in place
as fast possible. One of the gaps is that we
haven't got some of that reglatory environment in post in
(12:46):
place right now, which is holding back investment. So we're
going to we're going to replicate what's world class and
best practice and get on with it.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I did say last question, but I FI so how
long is it going to take to get this regulatory
framework in place so we can really start making a
difference with what we need to do with hydrogen.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yeah, action plan that we put out we're targeting pretty much.
Q three twenty five or take. In terms of that,
we want to have some early views of that pretty
much in the first or second quarter. We're working closely
with industry around that, and I think it's just a
good example of government working with industry, playing to our
strengths and also unblocking the pipe for them so that
(13:24):
they can get on and produce this at a lower cost,
because that's the other thing. You know, you want to
be able to produce this this hydrogen at a cost
price that makes it economically feasible. And if we can
remove some of the red tape and green tape, then
you know that's going to help.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Actually, because I was just thinking you probably have. You'd
be getting a bit of support from Chloe Swarbrock and
the Greens on this too, wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Well, look, I think you know across the aisle politically,
you know, other parties have looked at this in the past.
I guess the key difference is we're getting on and
doing the doing right and you know, this is an
example of just another area where we're cracking on and
making it happen. And I think it's positive, positive for
our economy but also positive for our climate.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Good stuff good luck and enjoy your Christmas break. Simon,
thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
No, thanks to him.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
There we go. That's Simon. What's he's a Minister of
climate change. Look, you know, as I say, all this
stuff's going to happen in the future. But I love
the idea for hydrogen and the potential for it. I
think often we get distracted by what it can do
for our private vehicles and whether that's going to be
the future instead of evs and all that. But when
you hear about the trucks and the heavy sort of
industry uses of hydrogen, maybe it is quite an exciting announcement.
(14:31):
So yeah, gets stuck country. You can't text your feedback
anytime on this. By the way, we'll be back in
just a moment. The PSA they're going to be having
a crack at the government because the government's new guidelines
are having a look at the working from home rights,
entitlements whatever. So Flufit's Simons. She's a solicitor for the PSA.
She's going to be joining us in just a moment.
It's twenty one past three News talk z B. Yes,
(14:53):
welcome back to the show. Actually, I was trying to
think of when hydrogen goes badly wrong, and somebody texted
me saying it goes back to the Hindenburg disaster. I
think that was hydrogen basically, Yes, that obviously was an
example of I think hydrogen going very badly wrong. But
there we go. Anyway, Look, the government has issued new
guidance for public servants wanting to work from home. Public
(15:15):
Service Commissioner Sir Brian Roche says the new guidance makes
it clear that working from home is not an entitlement
and that it will help support a high performance culture.
The guidance does not mean public servants can't work from home,
but the PSA says it's a far far cry from
the gender paygap principles restricting mum's abilities to work flexibil
(15:35):
around children and simons. She's a solicitor from the PSA
and she's with me now, good afternoon, Good afternoon. So
what's the basis of your case against what the government
want to do with their guidance.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Well, really, what happened does many years ago is PSA
in the government and the accounts of trade unions actually
agreed to an approach to ending gender based inequalities in
the public sector. So there are a whole lot of
principles agreed to, and one of them was that agencies
(16:10):
normalize flexible and part time working arrangements. So we thought
we had that agreed, we thought it was sorted, and
actually what we've seen is the gender pay gap come
down and more women and senior positions, so we thought
we were on the right track. So really it came
out of the blue for the government to attempt to
revoke those principles and not try and carry on on
(16:31):
this process that we'd already agreed with them. So really
the basis of our claim is we have an existing
agreement agencies must normalize flexible work, including written from home,
and now they're breaching that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So when it talks about I keep here seeing the
word guidance and guidelines, which reminds me of parts of
the Caribbean. They're more like guidelines. Is that if they're
not really that locked in stone, I mean, how how
binding is guidance?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Yeah, that's a really important question because this doesn't affect
the whole host of arrangements that people have in place
and have agreed between their employer and the worker now
and in some cases those are reflected in their actual
written employment agreement. But what it does change is the
nature of the availability of flexible work or working from home.
(17:22):
The previous approach was that it needed to be normalized.
Their guidance at that time talks about it. If not,
why not? So if you can't do it, let's look
into that. And it also says that leaders will be
champions of working from home, and we know the reasons
for that, that the benefits are really strong for the workers,
(17:43):
but also our surveys have shown that they're really good
for employers as well. People are able to concentrate more,
they get more work done, and they say it improves
the workplace culture too.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I did have a look at the survey that was
from public service people responding to how much they enjoyed
working from home and the benefits. But it's hardly subjective,
isn't it. If you like working from home, you're going
to say how wonderful it is. So how much can
we really rely on that survey apart from it being
something that people like to have because it's easier for them.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Well, I think the fact that employers weren't looking to
revoke working from home arrangements. They know that it benefits
both workers and the employer. It was really only because
the government decided to adopt what I think is quite
a performative act in releasing new guidelines and really continuing
its painting of public servants as somehow inferior or taking
(18:36):
from the taxpayer instead of loyal people who are committed
to working hard in the interests of us all every day.
It was really sort of the politics of the government
beating up on public servants, I think, more than what
it meant for employers.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Nicola Willis has said that there is still the ability
to work from home where it doesn't compromise performance. So
where's the problem. In a way, so if you can
prove your performance doesn't compromise, you're okay, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Well.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I think that's as have shift from normalizing it and
making sure that people can access it to a very
restrictive idea that it only can work in limited circumstances.
So it's really the tone and approach and what that
means for how agencies then try to enact this guidance.
So what we're worried about is that there might be
(19:24):
a whole bunch of people that have existing and forcible
arrangements to work from home, but new people coming through,
particularly women, particularly people with disabilities or chronic health conditions,
won't be able to access them in the different environment.
And look, what we know as well is that many
parents who have children who are sort of unwow but
(19:44):
don't need constant supervision, or working people themselves who are
sort of contagious but can do a bit of work
or work from home. And what we're already hearing is
that they're setting getting themselves and their employers and thinking, well,
I can't do this because of the new environment. Therefore
I just take suickly.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I mean, how much of this can we trust that
can be worked out between managers? And I mean the
managers might be the ones one to work from home,
of course, but you know, the people in charge of
each area of the public service, where you know, you
prove that you're reliable, you're doing good work, and your
boss can say, right, look, I don't mind you're working
from home two or three days a week. I mean,
can we not rely on just sort of common, sort
(20:23):
of reasonable reasonableness and this with the relationships between workers
and their own managers?
Speaker 5 (20:30):
Yeah, I really hope so. And we do know that
a number of people have existing working from home arrangements
that are contractually agreed. They're binding, and they will carry on.
But what we're really worried about is the culture and
change for new people or for people in situations where
they had sort of arrangements but they weren't formalized into
(20:51):
a binding agreement. So we're really worried about the shift
I guess and tone and approach. And what we do
know is that public agencies take their responsibilities to comply
with this guidance quite seriously. So we're also seeing all
ready a bit of overreach. So they're going a step
further than they sort of need to, and that's undermining it.
And look, it's not just public sector employers. Since we
(21:13):
filed this litigation, I've had an outpouring of response from
people that work in the private sector as well, and
they're some thing, please continue with this case, Please argue
it because it's really important for us. And actually some
of those people are from employers as well, so it's
not just an issue for workers.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Okay, it's putting aside the public side of things. Of course,
there are thousands of public servants who literally cannot work
from home. Because they are public facing. I think of
a rung of Tamarikian wins and a whole lot of
areas in the public service. So isn't this case if
I'm going to play Devil's advocate, isn't this just about
protecting a bit of a privileged for a privileged class
(21:54):
of public servants who aren't required to be front facing
to interface with the public.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Well, no one denies that there are some roles that
working from home just cannot work for. If you look
at corrections officers, they just can't work from home. It's
not possible. Similarly with ordo antibody social workers, although to
a degree, aspects of that are possible. But it's really
about where it is possible, where it is appropriate, creating
(22:23):
that climate that it's normalized and that it's enabled.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Also, the other thing, I know, you've made it a
sort of gender pay gap issue. I have seen a
comment that it's just you're in danger of reinforcing those
traditional gender roles when you're talking about women, when in
fact we're trying to sort of get away from that,
aren't we. Isn't it sort of a is it a
bit of a catch twenty two that you're saying you're generalizing, saying, well,
(22:49):
of course the impacts on mums forgetting that dads might
do it as well. And I'm not trying to be
too clever here, but you know, there would be an
argument can be mounted quite passionately about the reinforcing of
these traditional gender roles.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yeah, no, you're right, and I think that argument came
from Nikola Willis herself, oh, who challenged me to expect
better for our daughters. But what I would say is
we're dealing with the situation as it is now, and
the situation as it is now is that women take
on a disproportionate amount of parenting and caring responsibilities. But look,
if we're successful, ultimately this will impact on men who
(23:26):
do that as well. So it will be a good
thing for women, but it will be a good thing
for men who take on caring responsibilities, whether that's children,
elderly parents, or other people.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
What are we talking about. We're talking about fighting for
the right to work from home all the time. Were
we just talking about the ability to work from home
as a mix of your workplace sort of attendance.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
What we're really talking about is that normalizing it and
agencies becoming champions of it. We're not advocating for roles
to be working from home all the time. There are
real benefits in being in the workforce, being in the workplace,
interacting with colleagues, learning from colleagues. But really this is
about saying, where it can happen, let's try and enable
(24:09):
it to happen and just make people's lives a little
bit easier. And the reality is that actually a whole
bunch of these public service agencies have downsized their officers
on the basis that a chunk of their workforce work
from home, so it's not even very practical for them
to change their approach anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
What's the timeline for the legal action do you think
to get this resolved?
Speaker 5 (24:30):
So the other side, so to Carl Mattahal, the Public
Service Commission have fourteen days from the day we filed
it to put their response. We think it's then likely
will be referred to mediation and if that doesn't resolve
the matter, then we will go to a hearing before
the Employment Relations Authority sometime next year.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Okay, hey filer, thanks very much for your time. I
really appreciate it, and I hope you have a little
bit of time off over Christmas despite all this legal stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Yeah, definitely good one.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay, thanks very much. That's flipp That Simons's solicited for
the PSA. We'd like you feedback on this because my
big question is what did the public feel about this?
Should public servants be allowed to work from home? Is
it a basic right or a privilege? And it does
extend to the private sector as well. Of course, a
feed on musk was here in running the public sector,
everyone would be in at the office, wouldn't he because
(25:22):
and there is a bit of a move in terms
of the public will for people to get back to work.
I'll be honest, I'm sort of a little bit this
is I did ask a question as to whether this
was an argument around a privileged class of public servants
who don't have to public interface in the same way
that plenty of other people do. I can hear all
the private sector people and also those who have to
(25:45):
interface with the public who don't have that choice, thinking, Oh,
it's nice for you, isn't it. So is it really
a gender issue? Do you support it? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two and you
can email to I don't worry about the email. We're
doing calls and texts right now, so we'll be back
in just a moment. Do you support this action by
the public service defending the right to work from home?
What do you think, Get back into the office, do
(26:07):
the job. Back in the moment, it's twenty five minutes
to four news talks. He'd be.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Rug ram Christmas tree and Christmas party, little to where
you can see and as to start.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Les, welcome back to the weekend collective. Yeah, we like
to keep you know, just keep the couples of warmer
during my mind, you're not gonna need any warming than
this weather in Auckland. It's a stinking hot. It's like
in the middle of January. Anyway. Taking your feedback on
the working from home thing, there's lots of texts. I'm
gonna get into some of the corresponds. Actually I will
just address quickly. Somebody's there's been a few text he
said us at for flirfit. Someone's who was Labor Canada
(26:49):
or MP and therefore that's a reason to discredit her.
And actually no, no, I think we've got to deal
with the arguments on this. Here's my take on it,
and you know, there's two there's the gut reaction you
have to this, and I guess my gut reaction to
the working from home is that it's sort of a
bit of a luxury for those who can work from home,
and so I have personally don't really have much sympathy
(27:12):
if you have to get back into the office, because
there are so many people who are required by virtue
of their job descriptions that they need to be in
the office. Whether you work in I mean people who
work in the public health service, people who work in
the hospitals, people of firemen, policemen or anga tamiki workers, wins,
there's so many occupations, builders, plumbers, anyone who has to Yeah,
(27:35):
it's sort of if you have the luxury of sitting
on your bottom for work, then great, but it is
difficult to get the From my point of view, I
sort of I struggle to have sympathy, although if I
was in that situation, I could argue why I should
be able to work from home because I can do
it efficiently and all that sort of thing. But you
should treat those surveys with a grain of salt, because
(27:56):
when the public service sector surveys its own members saying,
how do you find working at home? Are you efficient?
Of course they're going to go, oh, I'm amazing when
I work from home. It's so can veens. I'm really productive.
I don't have any eruptions. But yeah, here's a few texts.
And then we've got a caller who wants to have
a chat about the hydrogen side of things. Somebody says, yes,
(28:17):
but by the business first. Otherwise, do as your boss
tells you or resign. Yep, work from home means actually
work from home, not be at home. Some employers, employers
I know, hate it as they know they're being had
on great in theory each Year's Dave. I think the
thing is if you're a good manager and you can
and you can outline expectations and what you what you
(28:37):
want your team to be doing, then technically it shouldn't
really be an issue for you. If you no good
at managing expectations and performance outcomes, then probably you won't
like working from home because you like to keep tabs
on people when they're in the office. Another person tim
get back in the office if you don't want to
go find another If you don't want to go find
another woke employee, preferably not paid by the tax payer.
(29:01):
Another one, do not support us an absolute privilege to
work from home public service forget how their salaries are funded.
They don't like their work expectations. Patrick looks out look elsewhere.
I think this ties into what flurit. Simon says, it's
a bit of a performative act by Nichola Willis painting
public service servants in a sort of negative light. Mark
(29:21):
says spot On comment, this is elitism and snobby nonsense.
Get to the office, Tim, simple, you work where your
employer says you work. Don't like it, resigns his herman
M And there's a few there's a few selections of feedback.
I've got truckloads of texts, but we got room to
take some calls if you like. On eight hundred eighty
(29:41):
ten eighty Richard, Hello, how are you going? I'm all right,
how are you?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I'm finding choice of music FIRS stuff was interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Uh what the pogues, Well, it was a bit slow
getting into it. We should have wound forward and got
into the chorus.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Shouldn't we Yeah, we see his band on British radio. Okay, well,
but but they can play records no, Actually, CARDI b
seeing a better by I found about find about hydrogen.
What sort of hydrogen we're going to produce and how
are we going to produce it? Two questions I have.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Well, you're not talking to an expert on this, but
it's going to be it's going to be I guess
powered by renewable energy. So yeah, that's that's as much
as I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Well, at present, we're making green hydrogen for Japan out
of geothermal stations in the North Island, and to make
up for the short form of our own electricity, we're
importing very polluting Indonesian cold mined by slave labor.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Don't Yeah, I don't actually know how that works. It
does It does sound like if we are making hydrogen.
Maybe it's because as hydrogen, once you've made it, does
it produce? Can you get more energy out of it?
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I don't produce it. To produce one kid a lot
of hydrogen, you need three kill lots of energy. It's
a very inefficient means of saving and power. And yes,
it is the most abundant fuel on the planet. But
you can't find it. There's very good places you can
find it normally, and you've actually got to draw on
the ground and remove it as a as fossil fuel.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, I can't answer your question on that. But now
the question that we are using green Field to ship
hydrogen elsewhere and yet we end up premium. Yeah, I
don't quite understand that myself either, but it might be
able to.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
But okay, the main place that Labor was going to
produce its main hydrogen producing producing plant, Pinary said, polluting
plant there, Their main plant was in central Southland as
far away from the sea as you can get, and
sitting on top of a lignite mine. What would you
do minor lignite and make making lignite into hydrogen. It's
(31:52):
called brown hydrogen. It's f filthy.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, well he didn't know that. There's apparently there's six colors,
as he said, but ours is all green hydrogen that
we'd be.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Looking at if you got at t y point. They
produce brown hydrogen, the gray high ydrogen. Okay, their for
their processes. Well, why isn't this maniflatable for discussion or
open debate?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh, look, sort of probably would if you're talking to
an expert on this stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
But if we can you were talking to But if
we can if.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
We can create it using I guess green or turquoise,
will blue, rosen or whatever, but that where it is
coming from a new renewable energy. Do you have a
problem with that? Do you like the idea of the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Future find renewable energy for a start?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Okay, well, well yeah, I mean I'm not going to
be able to have that discussion with you, Richard. But
if they can do it renewable energy, and I guess
this is where the opposition, the Greens, will need to
challenge them in Parliament because that's where the debate will
be had. But thanks for your call. Lots more texts
on the In fact, I'm scrolling through the correspondence right
(32:53):
now to see if there's anyone who supports the PSA's action.
Of course, if you're public service work, you probably are
supporting it. But in two of the corresponds to this show,
I cannot find a single person who who doesn't think
that people, if there asked to, should just get back
(33:14):
to the office. Hi, Tim, I don't agree with this
action as what about the office space we the taxpayer
are paying for. Well, I mean, I'm not sure if
that's really part of the argument, because you have to
have the office space because people aren't going to work
from home three and sixty five days a year. Not
(33:35):
that they're working three and sixty five days a year anyway.
I think, what would it be forty five weeks forty
six weeks times five whatever that arithmetic amounts to, Tom,
I'm getting older and i'd really like to work part
time in my role at my employer. I won't have
a bar of it. I'd like to see more job
share roles or halftime rolls. Could out new ret graduates
getting to jobs too. Something slightly unrelated, but yep related.
(33:57):
I mostly heard about how hi Tim. I mostly heard
about how working from home suits the employees, not so
much about the value for money for the employer. And
that's from someone just simply signed taxpayer, Hi Tim. If
work performance can be measured online, I don't see a problem,
except commercial office owners wouldn't like it with low sales
(34:19):
and leasing demand, says Mike. Tell the lazies, I won't
read this exactly. Tell the lazy so and so is
to go to work like everyone else. The elite can
work at home, but people who do the real graft, Sorry,
you have to go to work. I think that that's
probably one of the I think that's probably one of
the one of the bars to getting a huge amount
(34:40):
of public support for this. Isn't there hi, senior manager
in the public ministry? Oh, this is who's writing it's
swung too far setting meetings for people that used to
be a five minute desk chat. People refusing to come
into the office to talk to managers start asking what
they're doing, what they're doing from home, and the complaints
(35:01):
about bullying start. Then the PSA step in. It's a nightmare.
So there's someone from within the public service who's a
senior manager who wants people to get their butts back
into the office. Working from home is not a right
get back to the office. Tell my doubt where the
most government head officers have enough space for their staff
they need to get them to work from home and
a roster Well that's just speculation. I'm sure they've got
(35:24):
room for them. And that's pretty much it on the feedback.
We've got time for a little more if you'd like to,
but we're going to take a quick moment. But if
you want to give us a call eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty, yeah, we'll be back in just to
take it. It's twelve minutes to four news Talk, said B.
I thing to look like us moment everywhere you go.
(35:52):
Let's welcome back to newstalk s B the weekend, collect
a little more feedback on the on the working from
home thing that in fact, there's a hell of a
lot more feedback. Yeah, I think that even the one
message we got from Public Service was that was a
little bit against it as well, just from the point
of view of just trying to manage staff who's expectations
(36:13):
pretty hard to manage, I think. Anyway, there was something
else that somebody texted me about that, mentioning that in
the UK there are shows in radio where the hosts
are broadcasting from their own homes and brilliant sound qualities,
et cetera, et cetera, and it actually raises that thing,
I wouldn't like to really broadcast this show from home
because to me, it's a question of I think, getting
(36:36):
into the environment of the newsroom and being able to
have conversations ad hoc or planned or otherwise or whatever
with your colleagues and the whole work culture thing. In fact,
that was one question I meant to put to Flur
Simon's but it wasn't you know, the most wasn't the
most important question to ask. But there is something also
(36:57):
just about the cultural workplaces, and I think that that
is actually a really important one. Having a workplace where
people know each other for start, I mean, where you
see just the power of human contact from a point
of view of work performance and culture and all that
sort of thing. I don't think it's to be underestimated.
(37:19):
And that's why. I mean I have had times and
when I broadcast from home, they've got some equipment they
can send out. I think it was when I was
back in the COVID days and if you got seck
then and you couldn't go into the office, but you
could still broadcast. And I loathed it, to be honest.
I mean it was cute for an afternoon where you're like,
guess what, I'm sitting in my office at home and
I'm broadcasting around New Zealand. Isn't that amazing? But for me,
(37:41):
I actually think that that it's one of the things
that has been missing from society as a connection with
each other. And I think that's just as important when
it comes to the workplace and the teams you work within,
and there's only so far you can develop that when
you're staring down a zoom camera. And so I actually
do think that that is a genuinely legitimate concern for
any workplace. And I'm no fan of Elon Musk, right,
(38:03):
but when he said everyone get your butts back to work,
I sort of like, yeah, I'm sort of with him
a little bit. So also does remind me, as I said,
it is a sort of an issue for the privileged
sort of worker who doesn't have to interface with the public.
Reminds me of that mighty Python sketch about you can
always do the luxury sketch about something lucxturally. Oh, you
were lucky we had to work in all these other
(38:25):
different situations. Anyway, thank you for all your feedback. A
couple more texts to wrap it up. Is it not
part of a flexible working arrangement as a reasonable discussion
with your employer? Well, the first part of that text
is pretty much says what I said, and then they
go on to misquote me on something. But yeah, that's
(38:46):
I mean as flurfit. Simon's even acknowledged he said, ideally
you do want it to be a cult. It's something
that you work out with your manager that from time
to time you might work from home based on the
fact that you have proven yourself to be reliable, high
performing employee, and away you go. Tim don't agree with
this action as what about the office space question? Hi,
(39:06):
if I was a boss paying staff to work from home,
either a pay cut or no job helps pay for
the empty office space. And after forty years in the
sun and raining construction, I certainly don't feel I'm lazy
or entitled by working online in my home in my sixties.
Well no, as I said, you know, that just points
out that everyone has a different experience and high term
I'm a public servant. Many departments have substantially less floor
(39:29):
space than the number of employees. It accounts for sickness annual,
even working from home often at around eighty percent. Those
who work from home at times are prioritized ie eg.
Spreading working from home and the office, so there's no overflow.
I'm agnostic, but thought i'd pass a sign. Good on you.
I always love a bit of agnosticism as well. Right,
that wraps it up for politics. Thank you for all
(39:50):
your text feedback. There was a few, quite a few
I didn't manage to get to but I appreciate taking
the time to get in touch. Don't forget just looking
a little bit further ahead to the show and Smart Money.
At five o'clock, we have to be a chat about
Key We Saber, how there are some regulatory changes in
neighboring enabling key We Saber providers to increase their private
(40:11):
asset investments and what that's going to look like. And
next the Health Hub. Dr Alex Bartell's joining us. He's
the director of the Sleep welld Clinic. I'm already having
trouble sleeping because it's so bliming hot at night, got
the fan going, all that bed clothes are off. What
else can I do? Any problems you've got with sleep,
you can give us a call. Oh wait, one hundred
eighty ten eighty. We'll be back with the Health Hub
(40:33):
in just a moment. It's coming up to four minutes
to four news talks. There bar.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
Inside a girl and you're going to bom because you
(41:11):
know it don't.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
Matter anyway, and you can aloud, Oh man, buddy, you
can loud the more man, buddy, it's a bitch girl,
don't you bom because you know it don't matter anyway.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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