December 21, 2024 • 37 mins
2024 marks this coalition Government's first year in power, and will be one to remember.
They got straight to work repealing and introducing legislation, some being so controversial they triggered unprecedented responses in the way of protests.
Gang patches were banned, the first youth offender bootcamp trial was completed; this year truly had a bit of everything.
Former Speaker of the House and National MP, Lockwood Smith, and former Prime Minister Helen Clark join Tim Beveridge to wrap the year in politics.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
at be be hold with thows.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On, I'll be hold with bells off, drop the tree
and Roup presents, turn the Christmas News.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
It's Christmas, all birds.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I traveled around this country, across the water is deep
world may all lots of friends. Mil Pas don't join other.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's Christmas time again.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Another year is coming gone and I can't cheat begin
how you rots are.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So I'll be with ths be with bells on present
time Christmas. It's Christmas, Holly, I had a very good
afternoon to you on to average. Welcome to the final
(01:06):
Weekend Collective for the year, this Sunday, the twenty second
of December, and just a'm able to be introducing Politics
Central panelists because we're slightly different for the last show
of the year, but just looking a little bit further
ahead for the Health Hub. We're joined by Allison Gofton,
author and cook, and we're gonna have a chat about
Christmas lunch, dinner, staples and what recipes maybe we should
(01:26):
leave behind and never revisit again. I've got a hot
take on a couple of those things, but also just
all talk about food and everything that goes along with
it at Christmas time, so slightly healthy. Maybe it should
be called the Unhealthy Health Hub just for a moment,
because I'm not sure Christmas is the time when you
go on a diet, is it? But we anyway, we're
(01:48):
going to be looking forward to taking your calls and
engaging with Alison gofton at four o'clock and for five
o'clock for Smart Money Martin Hawes. He's a financial author,
written a truckload of books. It's either eleven or seventeen
something ridiculous, always forget the number. He's going to be
joining us to have a chat about gifting financially without
cash and how you know, all those sorts of things
(02:08):
around giving people money at Christmas time and other times,
I guess, And also this week's GDP announcement at what
it means looking ahead for our economy, So all that
and more. It is eight minutes past three and time
for Politics Central, so we're going to be joined in
(02:29):
just a moment. We're going to be doing a bit
of a panel and it's a discussion with a couple
of very esteemed politicians former politicians, should I say, because
twenty twenty four marx of course, Marxist coalitions government's first
year in power. It's going to be one to remember.
I'm sure is that just an expression we say one
to remember? I think it probably will be one to
remember for a while. They got straight to repealing and
(02:51):
introducing legislation, some being so controversial that they triggered some
unprecedented responses in the way of protests. Do you I
wonder what issue that was. We've seen gang patches where banned.
The first youth offender boot camp was a t I
was completed. Got to change the name of those things,
don't we. New Zealand even had a power crisis back
in August, and yeah, yeah, I had a bit of everything.
(03:14):
So today for Politics Central, we're joined first by someone
who has actually planned his holiday trip in his ev
around joining us on the show because he stopped in
Tai happy for a bit of a charge. And he
is a former Speaker of the House, former High Commissioner
of New Zealand to the UK, and his name is
Sir Lockwood Smith Lockwood, Good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Jim, great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Excellent. How's the car charging all right?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yep? Had to charge, had to charge you at Taie
Happy and took a little while here, but a good.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And joining Lockwood is she's a former Administrator to the
United Nations, former Prime minister and much like Chaer and
Madonna in the political realm, really she needs only be
introduced by one name, but of course Helen Clark. Helen, Hello,
how are.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
You hi there? And Hi there to Lockwood and Tie Happy.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, nice to have you both on board. Look, we'll
start with you Helen, just on the informal front. Have
you had a good year.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, it's been a very very busy year. I traveled
a lot to chair the different public good boards that
I chair offshore and things i'm a member of. At home,
I have Dad luckily still with us at the one
hundred and two years, nine months and fourteen days, so
that's great time wow consuming because I support him living
(04:41):
at home with a lot of lot of carers. So yeah,
it's been a full on year.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, not nice to have you on the show. And
we'll get in with the merry Christmas earlier and Lockwood,
have you had a good year so far? So far
it's all my stay, but let's hope it's been good
because you're not going to change her.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, So, I mean it's been busy. Like as Helen says,
you know, I cheer that few things and that keeps
him goodty. Plus being seven days a week on the farm,
I do fifteen thousand steps around the farm each day.
And you know, it's been a year of a bit
more hope as a farmer. And I think it got
pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Okay, I mean just overall, if I can get it,
just a take for you on the year that was, Helen,
how would you describe the political year? Is it just
like any other or has it been slightly more tumultuous
than we might have expected?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, I think offshore and on shore it's been a
totally tumultuous a year. I spend most of my time
focused on offshore events. But of course at home you've
had a new government in office for a year, and
as you said, a lot of things have been repealed.
I do worry a bit about the tendency of this
government and the last one just to junk whatever anyone
(05:49):
else was doing. If I look back, and I think
Lockwood he has a long memory. You know, when you
came into office, you didn't junk other people's infrastructure projects
and when you went out of office, you didn't expect
them to junk yours either. Something like the Waterview tunnel,
you know, conceived, designed largely under labor, carried on by
(06:11):
national No one needs to take the credit for it.
These things just need to be done. So I have
got a bit concerned about that sort of stop go,
stop going. How idiological infrastructure got to the point where
the last government was seen as basically wanting trains and
buses and walking and cycling, and the current governments seen
(06:32):
is wanting roads. It's just all two CRUs You know,
we need all of the above. We've got to have
a balanced approach to things. So I hope you know,
this kind of stop go wild swings and basic infrastructure
will stop because the troops, we sink a lot of
money designing things, and then as a checked out when
we start on an ex set of designs and then
they may be checked out and we end up with
(06:54):
most of our infrastructure, our essential infrastructure dates back to
the nineteen fifties. I might tell you why we're in
a bit of an infrastructure hole at the moment.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Actually that is any thought of it so much from
that point of view, because there are a lot of
issues we like to see a more bipartisan approach. But Lockwood,
would you agree with that that we need to see
some I mean, obviously if allows the ideas, allows the idea,
then maybe the new government has to do something about it.
But do we need to see more of a bipartisan
approach on big infrastructure investments.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yes, Tim, I'd agree with Helen. I think, you know,
it's too important for it to just change totally of
the change of governments, and I suppose being a rural
member of Parliament over all those years and being a farmer,
the lack of investment in roading or the lack of
interest in serious motorway projects by the last government, the
(07:45):
previous government, I think was a problem. As Helen said,
it's a matter of balance. You know, we do need
public transport developments.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
We do need those.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
But it's fascinating up from Northland, of course, and the
new motorway from Pouhoy to walk With is a stunning
piece of engineering. It is a magnificent piece of roadway
to drive on and the difference in speed of getting
goods and people up into the north is just awesome.
I know of no country with high productivity that has
(08:17):
poor roading network. You know, sure these days we can
get digits around the place with the Internet and with
fiber optic cables and style Link and all that sort
of thing, but we also have to get goods and
people around and and you know we can't do that
all on public transport. We need decent motorways. Look at
(08:38):
look at how Hamilton has developed since the you know,
the four lanes, the Whitecato Express wand all that work
was going on probably started a way back in Helen's
prime ministership, and these things used to span.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Governments, and the white kind of express phrase are fantastic
examples transform travel to and further south because you're don't
need to plug your way through the city. I mean,
you know a country that we'd often like to compare
ourselves with, Norway, which is also law thin country like ours.
When you go to the far north of Norway, you
just bowled over the infrastructure by the quality of the roads,
(09:13):
the huge span bridges, the punnels. I mean, okay, they've
got all all the build a lot of that, but
you know we are a bit behind to be.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Actually on that. Do you mind I'll go to you
first town. Just a quick answer on that. But do
you mind the idea of tolling certain roads, if so
they pay for themselves in that way, or do you
prefer it to be paid through this through the general
taxpayer funded model.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Well, I think I'm not opposed to toll and providing
there's an alternative. That's always the proviso, and where New
Zealand has told there's always been an alternative longest. So
for example, if you go down the Coast plus Total
on to Pookie, you can get on the motorway and
(09:57):
pay a small toll, or you can go around what
was the old State highway. So as long as there's
an alternative, if it helps you build it quick, I'm
honestly not opposed to it. And I think that could
apply whether or not it's done as a public private partnership,
and there is space for public private partnerships as well.
It doesn't suit every project, but some it might. My
(10:19):
foundation did a very substantial report on infrastructure earlier in
the year, which Chris Bishop came to the launch of
and spoken. A labor spokesperson came and you know, I
think that was actually quite an important occasion and report
for getting people saying we've got to start talking across parties.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
The Infrastructure Commission has been charged with setting out I
think a thirty year vision for infrastructure and consulting. Chris
Hipkins has expressed some interesting in part of that conversation.
So at my end, I'll do whatever I can to
encourage people to get on the same page on the
basic infrastructure because that's the only way we're going to
(10:59):
get a heap about the stop goo.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Ye I'd add to that. You know, as a rural person,
the toll road north of Auckland Allport Allport Road is told,
and you know it was like the total one. It
was one of the first New Zealand to be told.
And I'm happy, you know, we're happy to pay a
toll to get the roading. The only thing that amuses
me is you go north from Auckland, you pay a
(11:22):
toll to be on the motorway. You go north from
Wellington on the Transmission Galley Motorway, no toll. Why why
is that not told?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Right now, we've got a lot to get through, so
let's get into a few specific issues. There are a
few repeals this year. We've seen three waters, the Maori
Health Authority and the Smoke Free Generation. Look, there's always
a lot of nuance to these things, but whether were
there any good in those repeals or should they have
left the legislation alone. We'll start with you at first, Lockwood.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Well, I think for me, the focus needs to be
on outcomes. How do we achieve better outcomes? If you
take the Maori Health Authority, should a whole lot of
money be spent on a bureaucracy like that or do
we focus on how we get better delivery to Maori
bio maori out in the regions. I mean, I'm from Northland,
Napui country. I think health delivery up. Their health services
(12:16):
up in our part of the world aren't great, aren't
as good as they could be. But we should focus
on how do we get better delivery rather than setting
up more bureaucracy and so to me, the focus has
been in the wrong place. You know, it should be
on outcomes. How do we get better outcomes and minimize
bureaucracy and focus on better local delivery? How do we
(12:38):
power maori to deliver for Malori in North Helen real thoughts, Yes, Look, I.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Think a lot of mistakes have been made with restructuring.
If you go back to the beginning of Three Waters
when it was announced, it was announced to something that
local authorities could opt into. And that's fine, and you
know what, probably quite a few would it because it
has become quite onerous to get stuff up to standards.
But where it all went wrong was with the switch
(13:09):
and approach to saying you're all in whether you like
it or not. Now, if you take the Auckland Council
where I'm the right payer with my home, I think
the Auckland, if I'm right in memory, the Auckland Three
Waters infrastructure was about twenty eight percent of the asset base,
so that has other implications for your borrowing and so
on and your leverage. So I think that's where it
(13:31):
went wrong, where everyone was told, no, you don't have
a choice, you're going in now. Then eventually it got
modified so there were ten more regional companies. But if
you'd stayed at opt in with voluntarily, I think it
would have been a bet approach. Same you know, on
the health structure. When i Ife was a young Minister
(13:52):
of Health at eighty nine ninety, I kept completed the
transition from what were hospital boards to the area health Boards.
And then the government Lockwood was part of, came along
and they said they renamed them as well, initially Crown
Health Enterprises, and they went from the fourteen that I'd
designed to the twenty two twenty three, but anyway, I mean,
(14:15):
it wasn't that much difference. And then eventually they got
called district health boards. And when we went back into government,
I said to annak King, please, no restructuring. No restructuring.
You waste so much money restructing. Let's just focus on services.
And to be honest that there were probably still too many,
but over time there was a little bit of amalgamation
(14:36):
because of the small ones not being viable and they
went in of their own accord. They weren't pressured. So
then you'd fast forward to what Andrew Little did. And
I did not agree with going to one MW Zealand
Health Authority. I do not believe you can deliver and
make the decisions about delivery and operations from Wellington for
(14:58):
funa Ay or Timaru or whatever. I think you need
strong regional boards. That's my view. Always felt that, and
I think if you'd stuck with that kind of kind
of structure and then you have you know, as has
always been done. You do, you commission a number of
health services from the Maori lad providers, you should be
(15:22):
able to get the best of all worlds. But unfortunately,
you know, a lot of money has gone down down
the drain on major restructurings. And I'm doing major restructurings
and pretty much the same I suspect with the tertiary
education and stuff now, which Lockward's also very familiar with,
having been a mint in that area. So so yeah,
I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned
(15:44):
out of all of this.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, look so much to get actually, I reckon we
might be interesting to sew much agreement there's going to
between on you two on there's some of these issues,
but let's get onto the overhaul of the school lunches.
David Seymour led a complete overhaul in an effort to
save money. I guess the proof of the pudding is
in the eating. I didn't have so much of a
problem with it. I think if we can deliver it efficient,
(16:06):
so long as we're giving the kids something that keeps
them going. Helen, let's have your take on this.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Well, I think, I mean the lunch is probably aren't.
It's nice, that's the first thing. And you know kids
are funny with food, you know, they don't like to
look at it, and smaller they don't, they don't want it.
But one thing I did notice was that it put
a lot of the local businesses who were providing it.
It took the work away from them. So you see
(16:34):
reports of schools a huge even South ar schools a
long way away from Hamilton and getting the meals sort
of freighted down, and that I think was not a
good byproduct of it.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Although I guess David Seymour would say it's about getting
lunches to the kids. It's not about creating a business
for someone necessarily.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Although you know you could. You can design with co
benefits awful jargon, but as the price is broadly similar
and and let's face it, if you're going to have
to transport the food, you've got a factor that into
the price for meals as well. And then you've got
to look at how much wasted is there are the
kids actually eating? They're just going back to jump from
(17:17):
jump drinks and chips from your shop or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Do you remember what you had for your lunch? Hell
and back in the y I do.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Okay. So when I was a primary school going to
school on a bus from to Tipahu Primary and my
mother used to have us make our sandwiches every weekend
and we put them in the freezer and little bags
and they'd be taken out day by day in the winter.
They never unfroze enough anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Refreshing, refreshing on a winter's day.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So we were sent off with our little bag of
probably marmite sandwiches and an apple.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Bottle of water or something fantastic. I love I love that.
What about you, Lockwood? What did you have for your
school lunch?
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Some of the things Mum made lunches for us every day. Tim.
But another memory of mine though, of course, when Helen
was at Epsom Girls Grammar, I was at Auckland Grammar.
We were both boarders there and our luncheon pack uns
were delivered to us at school in great Big Basket.
Who'd come down to us at school from Tim's house
where I used to board, and of course my sister
went to we have some So I had a bit
(18:24):
of an idea about what went on at EPSOM two.
I guess this was pretty strong.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You don't know each other at school.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
No, well we used to have dancers with the boys
from Auckland girls I don't know at the time and
the boys from Dilver.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
All right, oh.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Well, hey, look we have to take a quick break.
We've got lots more to get on with and we'll
be back in just to tech. We with Helen Clark
and so lockwood Smith discussing the year that was. This
is News Talks. There'd be the Weekend Collective. It is
twenty five past three, back in Attack, It's welcome to
back News Talks. There'd be this is Politics Centralife, final
show of the year, and we're having a look at
the year that was with Helen Clark and sir lockwood Smith.
(19:03):
And let me just please the right button. So we've
both got you there and right, let's move on with
the Youth Offender boot Camp trial completed. Start with you, Lockward.
I feel that there's a lot in a name that
has led people down the wrong path when it comes
to discussing the benefits of these camps and the word
military and the title because the Children's Commission lockwood they
(19:27):
said they didn't see anything remotely militaristic about it. What's
your take on the boot camps and should we continue
with them.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I think your take on it's pretty right, so that
the name kind of conures up, you know, images that
are not the greatest, but I think they are worth
persevering with because you know, the young people that end
up in these programs have had pretty bad life practices
and there needs to be something to try and help
(19:55):
them see the benefits of changing that. And it's how
these programs are run. And I think there's a fair
bit of evidence that some of these youngsters are to
manage and that's a bit tricky, but for some of them,
I think there's evidence that it does help change lives.
But I think what's also important is when they return
(20:16):
to the community, making sure that they're not just dumped
out there and left their own devices. I think there
needs to be some ongoing support to help sustain the
changes that have been attempted during the program, and we've
got to make sure we get that right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
What do you think, Helen, Because everyone got caught up
with military but I just sort of thought if we
could find a new name, maybe our attitude towards it
would change.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
What do you think, So, I mean, the government's not
just going to abandon on having started them. In recent months,
I think there needs to be an evaluation. We're seeing
a number of reports about the kids who escape them.
I think one was tragically killed. These are very difficult
(21:02):
young people, Very difficult adolescents come from very challenging families.
If you wind the clock right back, you think could
there have been a lot more early intervention with behaviors
before they got to the state that they are in.
What I think would concern me having some insights into
(21:24):
these kinds of children which they are, is that they may,
in a perverse way, see it as a badge of
honor to be considered so difficult that they put into
these So it kind of reinforces the difficult image that
they themselves are rather enjoying. So look, it's a very
complex area. Let's see what their evaluation says the year.
(21:49):
And I'm personally not persuade that it's the way to go.
But as I say, I'm realistic they're not going to
abandon them right now. We need to see the evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah. Okay, Actually I did come up with another name
after sticking it into chat GPT, and the best I
could come up with was youth perform initiative but better
than boot camp anyway. Look, that's a little frivolous. But
let's move on to something that's a little bit more
chunky in terms of issues that have the potential to
divide New Zealand. The Treaty Principals Bill and the kickback
from it. I guess is it worth it? But the
(22:20):
second question I might throw in, which includes a tiny
opinion on my part, is I wish we could have
a mature discussion about this stuff on the substance of
the challenges we've got with the Treaty of White TANGI, Helen,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
So a treaty, by definition, is something that parties enter into,
and if one party, which is essentially an institution of
state in New Zealand, which is Parliament, legislators legislats to
say what it means, that will be seen as not
(22:57):
right because the other quote party isn't the party of
that decision. Now having said that clearly, this bill is
not going to proceed past Themitthy stage, So in a sense,
the noise about it is made knowing that the bill's
(23:17):
going nowhere. But a political opportunity to make his point
has been made, and probably the main beneficiary of ladders
the Maori buddy, and on the other end probably Act itself,
which has a certain sort of trunch the vote. So
it's harnessing as well. So it's a highly politicized debate.
(23:39):
I think if we look at the commentary, David Seymour
now says, well, I never said this was a bottom line.
Crispher Lockson appears to have believed it was. You know,
it's all a bit a muddle, to be honest, and
I think for most key is they'll probably be quite
happy when the bill is killed on a report back
to Parliament, and I wonder why did they hang around
(24:01):
so long? I think that's probably at first summary.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I also think, actually I throw this to you Lockwood
as well. I think that a lot of the divisive
sort of rhetoric exists. I don't know, I hate the
cliche within the beltwayh but I look at the way
most New Zealanders relate to each other and I think
we're I think we're pretty amazing multicultural country. But do
you think so Do you think that just the political
discourse around this is doing a great disservice to the
(24:25):
rest of us.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think some of the political sort of over the
top rhetoric around it all is very unhelpful indeed, Tom,
But I think what Helen says is right. You know,
no one can no one can change the treaty, you know,
and I think the late Malti king made that point.
The treaty has written. I think he said that one
(24:47):
Bigui and that's so true. No one's going to change
the treaty. To me, what frustrated me as a Northland
day was Napui have had the chance to receive well
over two hundred million dollars for the benefit of the
Maori people of Northland for the last what thirty years,
(25:07):
certainly between twenty and thirty years they could have had
over two hundred million dollars for the benefit of Napui
people of Northland and they haven't done it. Why weren't
people protesting about that?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Wow, that's I yes, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
That libert But the thing is ordinary Moldi people in Northland,
you know, Napui people are suffering because you know, you
look at how Waikato and Naikahu and another major ewe
have done great things with the treaty. Settlements and Britain
provides scholarships for the young people and all sorts of opportunities,
(25:47):
and Napui one of the poorer you know, EWEI in
the country ember the biggest. I think Napou is probably
the biggest. And why weren't people protesting about that? You
imagine if the government took away two hundred million from
from Northland. I mean, that's that's what's happened. The leaders
inability to agree on settling that that treaty settlement, which
(26:09):
is I just can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's almost helen. It doesn't feel like there's any end
in sight for that particular settlement, is it. I don't
know how.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
It's been very difficult to get closure on that. And
I think you know, I mean ministers on all sides
of politics have tried on that that takes two to
tango just hasn't happened. But you're right, those who have
settled have gone on, you know, in the cases you mentioned,
to do exceptionally.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Will let's move on to the international affairs, and I
guess the big one is Donald Trump's historic win in
the States and how it's likely to impact what not
just America, but also how will that affect New Zealand.
As I found after the twenty sixteen election. Heaven that
I was, you know, machinations and whaling and all that
(26:59):
sort of thing. And after this one, I've sort of
tuned out a bit because I'm like, oh, well, there
we go. What is But can you what your views
on what it means?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Well? Firstly, I was asked the other day who's the
person of the year, and I said, it pains me
to say it, but I have to say it's Donald Trump.
I said, who would have thought from where he was,
you know, with that January sixth business in d C.
And the the disaster over COVID and all the court
cases and the rest of the them. Here he is,
I'm back, no show without punk. So you got to
(27:32):
give a term that he can read the mind of,
you know, enough of the electorate to win an election.
I think Trump is always a disruptor. Disruptor last time,
there'll be a disruptor this time. I think for New Zealand,
we have to bear in mind that the tariffs aren't
just being waived at Mexico and China. You know, it's
(27:53):
potentially our wine and meat as well, and it's going
to have to be a lot of fancy foot diplomacy
at the New Zealand end around that. I think that's
probably the main impact on us, whether or not the
tariffs reaches for Ukraine, because he's said that the war
will stopped the day he's in office. Well it's not
quite that easy either, But what does it mean for Ukraine?
(28:17):
What terms does it stop on? We don't know how
he will handle the Israel Palestine issue. Of course, he's
been very close to Benjamin Natanyahu. On the other hand,
he is very close to the Saudis, and the Saudis
playing hard to get. They want to see a palace
in statement, and now who doesn't. So how does that
circle get get squared? I think we're in the cheap
(28:38):
seats down here. We should get the popcorn out, you
know what, what's from the back, as it were.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
That's sort of how I feel. How do you feel
about it, Lockwood?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I mean some of the I agree with much of
what Helen has said. You know, the challenge with President
President Trump is you know what of what he says
he'll do will actually get done and what will be
the most have the greatest impact. I mean, he will
be disrupted. Whatever we look at but I'm involved in
a Trade Advisory Council that advises a think tank on
(29:12):
trade international trade based in both London and Washington, d C.
And you know, we're looking at how we can minimize
the risks around that for both the UK and New Zealand.
And there's all sorts of thinking going on. Could we
know the US Canadian Mexican free trade agreement, While Mexico
(29:35):
is not flavor of the months at the moment, that
is an agreement that maybe the UK could dock into
rather than try to get a free trade at the US.
And there's even been a little bit of chattering Washington
about where the New Zealand could dock into that agreement
as well. And I think we need to think quite
innovatively about how we handle this next two years because
(29:57):
Helen's dead right, we face the risk of off tariffs,
so we need to be smart about how we think
about managing the situation. And I think, you know, with Trump,
it's so much will depend on what he actually does
compared with what he says you'll do. And the important
thing in many ways is the US economy needs to
(30:17):
do quite well because it still has a big impact
on global economic well being if you like, including New
Zealand and so it'll be really interesting to see what
happens to the US economy. Some people say it should
be okay, others are questioning it. But so much depends
on the balance of what he does. If you don't
if he emphasizes something pretty disaster, but if he emphasizes
(30:39):
some other things, it may actually not do so badly
at all.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Just before we go to the break, in fact, I
know we've stretched our time with you a little bit longer,
but I do have one more question to ask you
after the break, if you're happy to stick around, both
of you. But it's a quick fit one for you, Helen.
Which personnel in this government I got to be most
important in dealing with the Trump administration from the point
of view of protecting our trade is Winston Is Todd
(31:05):
McLay is at lux and who is it?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I think it's I think as Tom McClay, who's pretty
solid minister, the experience, been there before, He's been doing
the hard yards up in China for US. I think
Todd's going to be very important. I think in a way,
this is an issue you don't want on the headlines.
You don't want it featuring a phone call between the
person of the PM. There's too much attention. You've got
(31:29):
to go down. But under the radar with the Trade
Minister can so. Yeah, I'd say all strengths to Todd
as he tries to deal with us.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, and I'm going to come back in just a
moment with Helen Clark and Lockwoodmith and we might get
their takes. In fact, the Braak's useful just to consider
who their politician of the year is. And we'll take
some of your text feedback of course before we wrap
the show up, but we'll be back in just a moment.
It does nineteen minutes before our news talk sed B.
(32:04):
I have to have a lot of bit of Christmas
to ease out of the break there my guests, So
Lockwood Smith and Helen Clark, and I'm grateful for their
time because we did tell them it wasn't we going
to be quite such a long chat, but actually I
should thought i'd share with both of you before we
carry on with the conversation that really has the text
machine been so united, and just appreciating the comments you
both made, but I love the one that imagines that
(32:25):
maybe Helen, You and Lockwood might have had a dance
without knowing it the Epsom Girls Orklan Boys. Anyway, Lockwood,
can I ask who we don't have to invest too much,
too much worry about this, but who would your politician
(32:45):
of the year be?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Well, let me give you a runner up first, Yeah, Tim,
and that is my runner up is probably Simon Brown
is a rule dweller and a farmer having to get
around the country. The way he's changed the approach of
wakakotahi and the approach to transport is tremendous.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I think he's got a huge workload and I think
he's doing a very very good job. But no, my
politician of the Year for this year is Prime miss
Elution Christopher Luckson. I think he's the first prime minister
I have to deal with a three party coalition and
I think he's done that remarkably well. And also the
(33:25):
way he keeps minister's feet to the fire where his
three months update on objectives to be achieved, I think,
you know, that's that's been relatively easy so far, where
so much of the work has been rightly or wrongly,
you know, undoing certain things. I think the next year
will really be the test of the Prime Minister to
(33:46):
see if his three monthly key objectives can deliver the
outcomes that now need to happen. And there's still so
much more that needs to happen. So okay for me
Politician of the Year this year, but the big test
for the Prime Minister I think is next year.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Good stuff, Helen Clark.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yes, I'm going to one from each side and I'm
going to I'm going to stay away from from leaders
and I'm going to say who put in a pretty
solid year's work. So I mentioned Todd McLay before. I
think he's got the experience he's got out of doing
the business on trade. You know, we live or die
by that. It matters to us. You know, by Mars
were kept pretty bipartisan approach to trade. So for marks
(34:27):
to Todd and on the other side of politics, I'm
going to go to Asha Verel, who was Minister of
Health just in the short period before the election and
then the opposition spoke the person now and you know
she keeps the government on their toes. She's out of
the health medical field herself. She knows what she's talking about. Solid,
very solid and substantive performer. So that's the two I'd
(34:50):
go for.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Excellent. Hey have you got your plans? Have a Christmas?
Both of you? Oh, of course you've got some sort
of plans. Anything you'd like to share with us, Sir Helen.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yes, I stay with my husband Peter, and my sister
Sandra and my almost one hundred and three year old
dad at White Beach. We you know, we try to
make it as cheerful as we can.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Fantastic and Lockwood or you're already on the road, aren't you?
On your on your EV? Chloe loving you.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It's it's not a bad EV. This mustang Mackie g
T sounds not a bad EV. But with family, you know,
to me, Christmas is about family and friends and I
and the grandchildren Alexander is my wife, Lady Alexander's grandchildren
wonderful and I really enjoy being with them over Christmas,
and so family and friends. To me, it's not about presents.
(35:44):
Christmas is about, you know, family and friends and getting
together and you know, and also remembering those who aren't
with us this time around. But it's a it's a
special time of the year and and I'd just like
to give my very best Christmas wishes to all your listeners.
They are a great bunch. Thanks for listeners. Are agree
(36:07):
actually both of.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You funnily and I was reflecting on this that you
are the two politicians who I know back from my
musical career because Lockwood, as we know, Lockwed's a big
musical fan. And Helen you may not recall this, but
you were in Rotaru when I launched my first album
and I've got the photo of you having a chat
with my parents back in the day.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
And amazing, amazing.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It's amazing. The connections doesn't go back as far as
Epsom Girls, Grammar and Auckland Boys, but look, a merry
Christmas to both of you. Thank you so much for
your participation today. I really appreciate it and we'll look
forward to talking again sometime.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thanks christ.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Excellent. That is sir Lockwoodsmith and former Prime Minister Helen Clark.
And look, I thought that was one of the more
enjoyable conversations I've had actually for a while on Oh
They're all enjoyable, but really appreciate their time. We'll come
back with a little bit of feedback and then we'll
head into the next hour where we're joined by health Hub.
For the health Hub Allison gofton talking about Christmas lunch,
(37:07):
dinner staples, but also if you want to store up
an opinion to share with us, what Christmas staples do
we need to kiss goodbye to because I've got one
hot take on that. But we'll be back in just
a moment. This is News Talk SEB. It's ten and
a half minutes two four.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
at be be hold with thows.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On, I'll be hold with bells off, drop the tree
and Roup presents, turn the Christmas News.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
It's Christmas, all birds.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I traveled around this country, across the water is deep
world may all lots of friends. Mil Pas don't join other.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's Christmas time again.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Another year is coming gone and I can't cheat begin
how you rots are.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So I'll be with ths be with bells on present
time Christmas. It's Christmas, Holly, I had a very good
afternoon to you on to average. Welcome to the final
(01:06):
Weekend Collective for the year, this Sunday, the twenty second
of December, and just a'm able to be introducing Politics
Central panelists because we're slightly different for the last show
of the year, but just looking a little bit further
ahead for the Health Hub. We're joined by Allison Gofton,
author and cook, and we're gonna have a chat about
Christmas lunch, dinner, staples and what recipes maybe we should
(01:26):
leave behind and never revisit again. I've got a hot
take on a couple of those things, but also just
all talk about food and everything that goes along with
it at Christmas time, so slightly healthy. Maybe it should
be called the Unhealthy Health Hub just for a moment,
because I'm not sure Christmas is the time when you
go on a diet, is it? But we anyway, we're
(01:48):
going to be looking forward to taking your calls and
engaging with Alison gofton at four o'clock and for five
o'clock for Smart Money Martin Hawes. He's a financial author,
written a truckload of books. It's either eleven or seventeen
something ridiculous, always forget the number. He's going to be
joining us to have a chat about gifting financially without
cash and how you know, all those sorts of things
(02:08):
around giving people money at Christmas time and other times,
I guess, And also this week's GDP announcement at what
it means looking ahead for our economy, So all that
and more. It is eight minutes past three and time
for Politics Central, so we're going to be joined in
(02:29):
just a moment. We're going to be doing a bit
of a panel and it's a discussion with a couple
of very esteemed politicians former politicians, should I say, because
twenty twenty four marx of course, Marxist coalitions government's first
year in power. It's going to be one to remember.
I'm sure is that just an expression we say one
to remember? I think it probably will be one to
remember for a while. They got straight to repealing and
(02:51):
introducing legislation, some being so controversial that they triggered some
unprecedented responses in the way of protests. Do you I
wonder what issue that was. We've seen gang patches where banned.
The first youth offender boot camp was a t I
was completed. Got to change the name of those things,
don't we. New Zealand even had a power crisis back
in August, and yeah, yeah, I had a bit of everything.
(03:14):
So today for Politics Central, we're joined first by someone
who has actually planned his holiday trip in his ev
around joining us on the show because he stopped in
Tai happy for a bit of a charge. And he
is a former Speaker of the House, former High Commissioner
of New Zealand to the UK, and his name is
Sir Lockwood Smith Lockwood, Good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Jim, great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Excellent. How's the car charging all right?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yep? Had to charge, had to charge you at Taie
Happy and took a little while here, but a good.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And joining Lockwood is she's a former Administrator to the
United Nations, former Prime minister and much like Chaer and
Madonna in the political realm, really she needs only be
introduced by one name, but of course Helen Clark. Helen, Hello,
how are.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
You hi there? And Hi there to Lockwood and Tie Happy.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, nice to have you both on board. Look, we'll
start with you Helen, just on the informal front. Have
you had a good year.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, it's been a very very busy year. I traveled
a lot to chair the different public good boards that
I chair offshore and things i'm a member of. At home,
I have Dad luckily still with us at the one
hundred and two years, nine months and fourteen days, so
that's great time wow consuming because I support him living
(04:41):
at home with a lot of lot of carers. So yeah,
it's been a full on year.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, not nice to have you on the show. And
we'll get in with the merry Christmas earlier and Lockwood,
have you had a good year so far? So far
it's all my stay, but let's hope it's been good
because you're not going to change her.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, So, I mean it's been busy. Like as Helen says,
you know, I cheer that few things and that keeps
him goodty. Plus being seven days a week on the farm,
I do fifteen thousand steps around the farm each day.
And you know, it's been a year of a bit
more hope as a farmer. And I think it got
pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Okay, I mean just overall, if I can get it,
just a take for you on the year that was, Helen,
how would you describe the political year? Is it just
like any other or has it been slightly more tumultuous
than we might have expected?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, I think offshore and on shore it's been a
totally tumultuous a year. I spend most of my time
focused on offshore events. But of course at home you've
had a new government in office for a year, and
as you said, a lot of things have been repealed.
I do worry a bit about the tendency of this
government and the last one just to junk whatever anyone
(05:49):
else was doing. If I look back, and I think
Lockwood he has a long memory. You know, when you
came into office, you didn't junk other people's infrastructure projects
and when you went out of office, you didn't expect
them to junk yours either. Something like the Waterview tunnel,
you know, conceived, designed largely under labor, carried on by
(06:11):
national No one needs to take the credit for it.
These things just need to be done. So I have
got a bit concerned about that sort of stop go,
stop going. How idiological infrastructure got to the point where
the last government was seen as basically wanting trains and
buses and walking and cycling, and the current governments seen
(06:32):
is wanting roads. It's just all two CRUs You know,
we need all of the above. We've got to have
a balanced approach to things. So I hope you know,
this kind of stop go wild swings and basic infrastructure
will stop because the troops, we sink a lot of
money designing things, and then as a checked out when
we start on an ex set of designs and then
they may be checked out and we end up with
(06:54):
most of our infrastructure, our essential infrastructure dates back to
the nineteen fifties. I might tell you why we're in
a bit of an infrastructure hole at the moment.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Actually that is any thought of it so much from
that point of view, because there are a lot of
issues we like to see a more bipartisan approach. But Lockwood,
would you agree with that that we need to see
some I mean, obviously if allows the ideas, allows the idea,
then maybe the new government has to do something about it.
But do we need to see more of a bipartisan
approach on big infrastructure investments.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yes, Tim, I'd agree with Helen. I think, you know,
it's too important for it to just change totally of
the change of governments, and I suppose being a rural
member of Parliament over all those years and being a farmer,
the lack of investment in roading or the lack of
interest in serious motorway projects by the last government, the
(07:45):
previous government, I think was a problem. As Helen said,
it's a matter of balance. You know, we do need
public transport developments.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
We do need those.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
But it's fascinating up from Northland, of course, and the
new motorway from Pouhoy to walk With is a stunning
piece of engineering. It is a magnificent piece of roadway
to drive on and the difference in speed of getting
goods and people up into the north is just awesome.
I know of no country with high productivity that has
(08:17):
poor roading network. You know, sure these days we can
get digits around the place with the Internet and with
fiber optic cables and style Link and all that sort
of thing, but we also have to get goods and
people around and and you know we can't do that
all on public transport. We need decent motorways. Look at
(08:38):
look at how Hamilton has developed since the you know,
the four lanes, the Whitecato Express wand all that work
was going on probably started a way back in Helen's
prime ministership, and these things used to span.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Governments, and the white kind of express phrase are fantastic
examples transform travel to and further south because you're don't
need to plug your way through the city. I mean,
you know a country that we'd often like to compare
ourselves with, Norway, which is also law thin country like ours.
When you go to the far north of Norway, you
just bowled over the infrastructure by the quality of the roads,
(09:13):
the huge span bridges, the punnels. I mean, okay, they've
got all all the build a lot of that, but
you know we are a bit behind to be.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Actually on that. Do you mind I'll go to you
first town. Just a quick answer on that. But do
you mind the idea of tolling certain roads, if so
they pay for themselves in that way, or do you
prefer it to be paid through this through the general
taxpayer funded model.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Well, I think I'm not opposed to toll and providing
there's an alternative. That's always the proviso, and where New
Zealand has told there's always been an alternative longest. So
for example, if you go down the Coast plus Total
on to Pookie, you can get on the motorway and
(09:57):
pay a small toll, or you can go around what
was the old State highway. So as long as there's
an alternative, if it helps you build it quick, I'm
honestly not opposed to it. And I think that could
apply whether or not it's done as a public private partnership,
and there is space for public private partnerships as well.
It doesn't suit every project, but some it might. My
(10:19):
foundation did a very substantial report on infrastructure earlier in
the year, which Chris Bishop came to the launch of
and spoken. A labor spokesperson came and you know, I
think that was actually quite an important occasion and report
for getting people saying we've got to start talking across parties.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
The Infrastructure Commission has been charged with setting out I
think a thirty year vision for infrastructure and consulting. Chris
Hipkins has expressed some interesting in part of that conversation.
So at my end, I'll do whatever I can to
encourage people to get on the same page on the
basic infrastructure because that's the only way we're going to
(10:59):
get a heap about the stop goo.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Ye I'd add to that. You know, as a rural person,
the toll road north of Auckland Allport Allport Road is told,
and you know it was like the total one. It
was one of the first New Zealand to be told.
And I'm happy, you know, we're happy to pay a
toll to get the roading. The only thing that amuses
me is you go north from Auckland, you pay a
(11:22):
toll to be on the motorway. You go north from
Wellington on the Transmission Galley Motorway, no toll. Why why
is that not told?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Right now, we've got a lot to get through, so
let's get into a few specific issues. There are a
few repeals this year. We've seen three waters, the Maori
Health Authority and the Smoke Free Generation. Look, there's always
a lot of nuance to these things, but whether were
there any good in those repeals or should they have
left the legislation alone. We'll start with you at first, Lockwood.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Well, I think for me, the focus needs to be
on outcomes. How do we achieve better outcomes? If you
take the Maori Health Authority, should a whole lot of
money be spent on a bureaucracy like that or do
we focus on how we get better delivery to Maori
bio maori out in the regions. I mean, I'm from Northland,
Napui country. I think health delivery up. Their health services
(12:16):
up in our part of the world aren't great, aren't
as good as they could be. But we should focus
on how do we get better delivery rather than setting
up more bureaucracy and so to me, the focus has
been in the wrong place. You know, it should be
on outcomes. How do we get better outcomes and minimize
bureaucracy and focus on better local delivery? How do we
(12:38):
power maori to deliver for Malori in North Helen real thoughts, Yes, Look, I.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Think a lot of mistakes have been made with restructuring.
If you go back to the beginning of Three Waters
when it was announced, it was announced to something that
local authorities could opt into. And that's fine, and you
know what, probably quite a few would it because it
has become quite onerous to get stuff up to standards.
But where it all went wrong was with the switch
(13:09):
and approach to saying you're all in whether you like
it or not. Now, if you take the Auckland Council
where I'm the right payer with my home, I think
the Auckland, if I'm right in memory, the Auckland Three
Waters infrastructure was about twenty eight percent of the asset base,
so that has other implications for your borrowing and so
on and your leverage. So I think that's where it
(13:31):
went wrong, where everyone was told, no, you don't have
a choice, you're going in now. Then eventually it got
modified so there were ten more regional companies. But if
you'd stayed at opt in with voluntarily, I think it
would have been a bet approach. Same you know, on
the health structure. When i Ife was a young Minister
(13:52):
of Health at eighty nine ninety, I kept completed the
transition from what were hospital boards to the area health Boards.
And then the government Lockwood was part of, came along
and they said they renamed them as well, initially Crown
Health Enterprises, and they went from the fourteen that I'd
designed to the twenty two twenty three, but anyway, I mean,
(14:15):
it wasn't that much difference. And then eventually they got
called district health boards. And when we went back into government,
I said to annak King, please, no restructuring. No restructuring.
You waste so much money restructing. Let's just focus on services.
And to be honest that there were probably still too many,
but over time there was a little bit of amalgamation
(14:36):
because of the small ones not being viable and they
went in of their own accord. They weren't pressured. So
then you'd fast forward to what Andrew Little did. And
I did not agree with going to one MW Zealand
Health Authority. I do not believe you can deliver and
make the decisions about delivery and operations from Wellington for
(14:58):
funa Ay or Timaru or whatever. I think you need
strong regional boards. That's my view. Always felt that, and
I think if you'd stuck with that kind of kind
of structure and then you have you know, as has
always been done. You do, you commission a number of
health services from the Maori lad providers, you should be
(15:22):
able to get the best of all worlds. But unfortunately,
you know, a lot of money has gone down down
the drain on major restructurings. And I'm doing major restructurings
and pretty much the same I suspect with the tertiary
education and stuff now, which Lockward's also very familiar with,
having been a mint in that area. So so yeah,
I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned
(15:44):
out of all of this.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, look so much to get actually, I reckon we
might be interesting to sew much agreement there's going to
between on you two on there's some of these issues,
but let's get onto the overhaul of the school lunches.
David Seymour led a complete overhaul in an effort to
save money. I guess the proof of the pudding is
in the eating. I didn't have so much of a
problem with it. I think if we can deliver it efficient,
(16:06):
so long as we're giving the kids something that keeps
them going. Helen, let's have your take on this.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Well, I think, I mean the lunch is probably aren't.
It's nice, that's the first thing. And you know kids
are funny with food, you know, they don't like to
look at it, and smaller they don't, they don't want it.
But one thing I did notice was that it put
a lot of the local businesses who were providing it.
It took the work away from them. So you see
(16:34):
reports of schools a huge even South ar schools a
long way away from Hamilton and getting the meals sort
of freighted down, and that I think was not a
good byproduct of it.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Although I guess David Seymour would say it's about getting
lunches to the kids. It's not about creating a business
for someone necessarily.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Although you know you could. You can design with co
benefits awful jargon, but as the price is broadly similar
and and let's face it, if you're going to have
to transport the food, you've got a factor that into
the price for meals as well. And then you've got
to look at how much wasted is there are the
kids actually eating? They're just going back to jump from
(17:17):
jump drinks and chips from your shop or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Do you remember what you had for your lunch? Hell
and back in the y I do.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Okay. So when I was a primary school going to
school on a bus from to Tipahu Primary and my
mother used to have us make our sandwiches every weekend
and we put them in the freezer and little bags
and they'd be taken out day by day in the winter.
They never unfroze enough anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Refreshing, refreshing on a winter's day.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So we were sent off with our little bag of
probably marmite sandwiches and an apple.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Bottle of water or something fantastic. I love I love that.
What about you, Lockwood? What did you have for your
school lunch?
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Some of the things Mum made lunches for us every day. Tim.
But another memory of mine though, of course, when Helen
was at Epsom Girls Grammar, I was at Auckland Grammar.
We were both boarders there and our luncheon pack uns
were delivered to us at school in great Big Basket.
Who'd come down to us at school from Tim's house
where I used to board, and of course my sister
went to we have some So I had a bit
(18:24):
of an idea about what went on at EPSOM two.
I guess this was pretty strong.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You don't know each other at school.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
No, well we used to have dancers with the boys
from Auckland girls I don't know at the time and
the boys from Dilver.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
All right, oh.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Well, hey, look we have to take a quick break.
We've got lots more to get on with and we'll
be back in just to tech. We with Helen Clark
and so lockwood Smith discussing the year that was. This
is News Talks. There'd be the Weekend Collective. It is
twenty five past three, back in Attack, It's welcome to
back News Talks. There'd be this is Politics Centralife, final
show of the year, and we're having a look at
the year that was with Helen Clark and sir lockwood Smith.
(19:03):
And let me just please the right button. So we've
both got you there and right, let's move on with
the Youth Offender boot Camp trial completed. Start with you, Lockward.
I feel that there's a lot in a name that
has led people down the wrong path when it comes
to discussing the benefits of these camps and the word
military and the title because the Children's Commission lockwood they
(19:27):
said they didn't see anything remotely militaristic about it. What's
your take on the boot camps and should we continue
with them.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I think your take on it's pretty right, so that
the name kind of conures up, you know, images that
are not the greatest, but I think they are worth
persevering with because you know, the young people that end
up in these programs have had pretty bad life practices
and there needs to be something to try and help
(19:55):
them see the benefits of changing that. And it's how
these programs are run. And I think there's a fair
bit of evidence that some of these youngsters are to
manage and that's a bit tricky, but for some of them,
I think there's evidence that it does help change lives.
But I think what's also important is when they return
(20:16):
to the community, making sure that they're not just dumped
out there and left their own devices. I think there
needs to be some ongoing support to help sustain the
changes that have been attempted during the program, and we've
got to make sure we get that right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
What do you think, Helen, Because everyone got caught up
with military but I just sort of thought if we
could find a new name, maybe our attitude towards it
would change.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
What do you think, So, I mean, the government's not
just going to abandon on having started them. In recent months,
I think there needs to be an evaluation. We're seeing
a number of reports about the kids who escape them.
I think one was tragically killed. These are very difficult
(21:02):
young people, Very difficult adolescents come from very challenging families.
If you wind the clock right back, you think could
there have been a lot more early intervention with behaviors
before they got to the state that they are in.
What I think would concern me having some insights into
(21:24):
these kinds of children which they are, is that they may,
in a perverse way, see it as a badge of
honor to be considered so difficult that they put into
these So it kind of reinforces the difficult image that
they themselves are rather enjoying. So look, it's a very
complex area. Let's see what their evaluation says the year.
(21:49):
And I'm personally not persuade that it's the way to go.
But as I say, I'm realistic they're not going to
abandon them right now. We need to see the evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah. Okay, Actually I did come up with another name
after sticking it into chat GPT, and the best I
could come up with was youth perform initiative but better
than boot camp anyway. Look, that's a little frivolous. But
let's move on to something that's a little bit more
chunky in terms of issues that have the potential to
divide New Zealand. The Treaty Principals Bill and the kickback
from it. I guess is it worth it? But the
(22:20):
second question I might throw in, which includes a tiny
opinion on my part, is I wish we could have
a mature discussion about this stuff on the substance of
the challenges we've got with the Treaty of White TANGI, Helen,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
So a treaty, by definition, is something that parties enter into,
and if one party, which is essentially an institution of
state in New Zealand, which is Parliament, legislators legislats to
say what it means, that will be seen as not
(22:57):
right because the other quote party isn't the party of
that decision. Now having said that clearly, this bill is
not going to proceed past Themitthy stage, So in a sense,
the noise about it is made knowing that the bill's
(23:17):
going nowhere. But a political opportunity to make his point
has been made, and probably the main beneficiary of ladders
the Maori buddy, and on the other end probably Act itself,
which has a certain sort of trunch the vote. So
it's harnessing as well. So it's a highly politicized debate.
(23:39):
I think if we look at the commentary, David Seymour
now says, well, I never said this was a bottom line.
Crispher Lockson appears to have believed it was. You know,
it's all a bit a muddle, to be honest, and
I think for most key is they'll probably be quite
happy when the bill is killed on a report back
to Parliament, and I wonder why did they hang around
(24:01):
so long? I think that's probably at first summary.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I also think, actually I throw this to you Lockwood
as well. I think that a lot of the divisive
sort of rhetoric exists. I don't know, I hate the
cliche within the beltwayh but I look at the way
most New Zealanders relate to each other and I think
we're I think we're pretty amazing multicultural country. But do
you think so Do you think that just the political
discourse around this is doing a great disservice to the
(24:25):
rest of us.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think some of the political sort of over the
top rhetoric around it all is very unhelpful indeed, Tom,
But I think what Helen says is right. You know,
no one can no one can change the treaty, you know,
and I think the late Malti king made that point.
The treaty has written. I think he said that one
(24:47):
Bigui and that's so true. No one's going to change
the treaty. To me, what frustrated me as a Northland
day was Napui have had the chance to receive well
over two hundred million dollars for the benefit of the
Maori people of Northland for the last what thirty years,
(25:07):
certainly between twenty and thirty years they could have had
over two hundred million dollars for the benefit of Napui
people of Northland and they haven't done it. Why weren't
people protesting about that?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Wow, that's I yes, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
That libert But the thing is ordinary Moldi people in Northland,
you know, Napui people are suffering because you know, you
look at how Waikato and Naikahu and another major ewe
have done great things with the treaty. Settlements and Britain
provides scholarships for the young people and all sorts of opportunities,
(25:47):
and Napui one of the poorer you know, EWEI in
the country ember the biggest. I think Napou is probably
the biggest. And why weren't people protesting about that? You
imagine if the government took away two hundred million from
from Northland. I mean, that's that's what's happened. The leaders
inability to agree on settling that that treaty settlement, which
(26:09):
is I just can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's almost helen. It doesn't feel like there's any end
in sight for that particular settlement, is it. I don't
know how.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
It's been very difficult to get closure on that. And
I think you know, I mean ministers on all sides
of politics have tried on that that takes two to
tango just hasn't happened. But you're right, those who have
settled have gone on, you know, in the cases you mentioned,
to do exceptionally.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Will let's move on to the international affairs, and I
guess the big one is Donald Trump's historic win in
the States and how it's likely to impact what not
just America, but also how will that affect New Zealand.
As I found after the twenty sixteen election. Heaven that
I was, you know, machinations and whaling and all that
(26:59):
sort of thing. And after this one, I've sort of
tuned out a bit because I'm like, oh, well, there
we go. What is But can you what your views
on what it means?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Well? Firstly, I was asked the other day who's the
person of the year, and I said, it pains me
to say it, but I have to say it's Donald Trump.
I said, who would have thought from where he was,
you know, with that January sixth business in d C.
And the the disaster over COVID and all the court
cases and the rest of the them. Here he is,
I'm back, no show without punk. So you got to
(27:32):
give a term that he can read the mind of,
you know, enough of the electorate to win an election.
I think Trump is always a disruptor. Disruptor last time,
there'll be a disruptor this time. I think for New Zealand,
we have to bear in mind that the tariffs aren't
just being waived at Mexico and China. You know, it's
(27:53):
potentially our wine and meat as well, and it's going
to have to be a lot of fancy foot diplomacy
at the New Zealand end around that. I think that's
probably the main impact on us, whether or not the
tariffs reaches for Ukraine, because he's said that the war
will stopped the day he's in office. Well it's not
quite that easy either, But what does it mean for Ukraine?
(28:17):
What terms does it stop on? We don't know how
he will handle the Israel Palestine issue. Of course, he's
been very close to Benjamin Natanyahu. On the other hand,
he is very close to the Saudis, and the Saudis
playing hard to get. They want to see a palace
in statement, and now who doesn't. So how does that
circle get get squared? I think we're in the cheap
(28:38):
seats down here. We should get the popcorn out, you
know what, what's from the back, as it were.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
That's sort of how I feel. How do you feel
about it, Lockwood?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I mean some of the I agree with much of
what Helen has said. You know, the challenge with President
President Trump is you know what of what he says
he'll do will actually get done and what will be
the most have the greatest impact. I mean, he will
be disrupted. Whatever we look at but I'm involved in
a Trade Advisory Council that advises a think tank on
(29:12):
trade international trade based in both London and Washington, d C.
And you know, we're looking at how we can minimize
the risks around that for both the UK and New Zealand.
And there's all sorts of thinking going on. Could we
know the US Canadian Mexican free trade agreement, While Mexico
(29:35):
is not flavor of the months at the moment, that
is an agreement that maybe the UK could dock into
rather than try to get a free trade at the US.
And there's even been a little bit of chattering Washington
about where the New Zealand could dock into that agreement
as well. And I think we need to think quite
innovatively about how we handle this next two years because
(29:57):
Helen's dead right, we face the risk of off tariffs,
so we need to be smart about how we think
about managing the situation. And I think, you know, with Trump,
it's so much will depend on what he actually does
compared with what he says you'll do. And the important
thing in many ways is the US economy needs to
(30:17):
do quite well because it still has a big impact
on global economic well being if you like, including New
Zealand and so it'll be really interesting to see what
happens to the US economy. Some people say it should
be okay, others are questioning it. But so much depends
on the balance of what he does. If you don't
if he emphasizes something pretty disaster, but if he emphasizes
(30:39):
some other things, it may actually not do so badly
at all.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Just before we go to the break, in fact, I
know we've stretched our time with you a little bit longer,
but I do have one more question to ask you
after the break, if you're happy to stick around, both
of you. But it's a quick fit one for you, Helen.
Which personnel in this government I got to be most
important in dealing with the Trump administration from the point
of view of protecting our trade is Winston Is Todd
(31:05):
McLay is at lux and who is it?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I think it's I think as Tom McClay, who's pretty
solid minister, the experience, been there before, He's been doing
the hard yards up in China for US. I think
Todd's going to be very important. I think in a way,
this is an issue you don't want on the headlines.
You don't want it featuring a phone call between the
person of the PM. There's too much attention. You've got
(31:29):
to go down. But under the radar with the Trade
Minister can so. Yeah, I'd say all strengths to Todd
as he tries to deal with us.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, and I'm going to come back in just a
moment with Helen Clark and Lockwoodmith and we might get
their takes. In fact, the Braak's useful just to consider
who their politician of the year is. And we'll take
some of your text feedback of course before we wrap
the show up, but we'll be back in just a moment.
It does nineteen minutes before our news talk sed B.
(32:04):
I have to have a lot of bit of Christmas
to ease out of the break there my guests, So
Lockwood Smith and Helen Clark, and I'm grateful for their
time because we did tell them it wasn't we going
to be quite such a long chat, but actually I
should thought i'd share with both of you before we
carry on with the conversation that really has the text
machine been so united, and just appreciating the comments you
both made, but I love the one that imagines that
(32:25):
maybe Helen, You and Lockwood might have had a dance
without knowing it the Epsom Girls Orklan Boys. Anyway, Lockwood,
can I ask who we don't have to invest too much,
too much worry about this, but who would your politician
(32:45):
of the year be?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Well, let me give you a runner up first, Yeah, Tim,
and that is my runner up is probably Simon Brown
is a rule dweller and a farmer having to get
around the country. The way he's changed the approach of
wakakotahi and the approach to transport is tremendous.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I think he's got a huge workload and I think
he's doing a very very good job. But no, my
politician of the Year for this year is Prime miss
Elution Christopher Luckson. I think he's the first prime minister
I have to deal with a three party coalition and
I think he's done that remarkably well. And also the
(33:25):
way he keeps minister's feet to the fire where his
three months update on objectives to be achieved, I think,
you know, that's that's been relatively easy so far, where
so much of the work has been rightly or wrongly,
you know, undoing certain things. I think the next year
will really be the test of the Prime Minister to
(33:46):
see if his three monthly key objectives can deliver the
outcomes that now need to happen. And there's still so
much more that needs to happen. So okay for me
Politician of the Year this year, but the big test
for the Prime Minister I think is next year.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Good stuff, Helen Clark.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yes, I'm going to one from each side and I'm
going to I'm going to stay away from from leaders
and I'm going to say who put in a pretty
solid year's work. So I mentioned Todd McLay before. I
think he's got the experience he's got out of doing
the business on trade. You know, we live or die
by that. It matters to us. You know, by Mars
were kept pretty bipartisan approach to trade. So for marks
(34:27):
to Todd and on the other side of politics, I'm
going to go to Asha Verel, who was Minister of
Health just in the short period before the election and
then the opposition spoke the person now and you know
she keeps the government on their toes. She's out of
the health medical field herself. She knows what she's talking about. Solid,
very solid and substantive performer. So that's the two I'd
(34:50):
go for.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Excellent. Hey have you got your plans? Have a Christmas?
Both of you? Oh, of course you've got some sort
of plans. Anything you'd like to share with us, Sir Helen.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yes, I stay with my husband Peter, and my sister
Sandra and my almost one hundred and three year old
dad at White Beach. We you know, we try to
make it as cheerful as we can.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Fantastic and Lockwood or you're already on the road, aren't you?
On your on your EV? Chloe loving you.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It's it's not a bad EV. This mustang Mackie g
T sounds not a bad EV. But with family, you know,
to me, Christmas is about family and friends and I
and the grandchildren Alexander is my wife, Lady Alexander's grandchildren
wonderful and I really enjoy being with them over Christmas,
and so family and friends. To me, it's not about presents.
(35:44):
Christmas is about, you know, family and friends and getting
together and you know, and also remembering those who aren't
with us this time around. But it's a it's a
special time of the year and and I'd just like
to give my very best Christmas wishes to all your listeners.
They are a great bunch. Thanks for listeners. Are agree
(36:07):
actually both of.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You funnily and I was reflecting on this that you
are the two politicians who I know back from my
musical career because Lockwood, as we know, Lockwed's a big
musical fan. And Helen you may not recall this, but
you were in Rotaru when I launched my first album
and I've got the photo of you having a chat
with my parents back in the day.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
And amazing, amazing.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It's amazing. The connections doesn't go back as far as
Epsom Girls, Grammar and Auckland Boys, but look, a merry
Christmas to both of you. Thank you so much for
your participation today. I really appreciate it and we'll look
forward to talking again sometime.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thanks christ.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Excellent. That is sir Lockwoodsmith and former Prime Minister Helen Clark.
And look, I thought that was one of the more
enjoyable conversations I've had actually for a while on Oh
They're all enjoyable, but really appreciate their time. We'll come
back with a little bit of feedback and then we'll
head into the next hour where we're joined by health Hub.
For the health Hub Allison gofton talking about Christmas lunch,
(37:07):
dinner staples, but also if you want to store up
an opinion to share with us, what Christmas staples do
we need to kiss goodbye to because I've got one
hot take on that. But we'll be back in just
a moment. This is News Talk SEB. It's ten and
a half minutes two four.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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