March 8, 2025 • 9 mins
Health Minister Simeon Brown wants to introduce wait time targets for general practices.
GenPro Chair Angus Chambers says GPs want to reduce wait times, and understand very well how bad it can be, but they don't have enough doctors to improve it.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The government wants to add GP weight times to the
list of healthcare targets. So we've had health had healthcare
weight targets for a while now with emergency rooms specialist
selective treatments, and it doesn't seem to have made a
hell of a lot of difference. Health Minister Simeon Brown.
He's at the ground running, isn't he. He says there
are far too many people waiting more than a week
to get a doctor's appointment and this could change that.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And the jen pro that is the General.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Proactive Owners Association chair Angus Chambers is with us, and
I think he's with us.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
No, Hello, how you go?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sorry, just had a couple of technical issues distract me
in the background there.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
That's okay. I can comment on environmental issues too, you know.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Hey, well you stay on the line afterwards. What do
you guys? How do you feel about targets? Do they
really do anything?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I have seen targets work to a degree.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I think there's always a concern with targets that they
create perverse incentives and you design your behavior and a.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Target and sometimes miss other targets.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
But look, when we had an immunization target quite a
long time ago, general practice got very well up towards
the target because of focus on it. So, yeah, there's
an argument for them.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
What's the incentive? And this is just a number in
front of you. It's like having a pacemaker and a race,
is it. You've got someone running at a certain speed
in front of you and you're like, we got to
keep up with this.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Look, there's a little bit of that.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I mean, you know, sometimes incentives have a financial part
of it, So look, you know that's that's always helpful.
I think there's an element of competition, and people don't
like being lower down in a league table a personal
pride thing, so that can sort of have some effect
as well.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So how is it going to work?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Are you going to see is each practice going to
sort of see how it sits with others? Is it
some sort of thing where there's like a ladder that's
sitting in front of everyone and these guys are winning,
these guys losing.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Look, actually, we have no idea how it's going to
be constructed, and we'd really like to be part of
that because we know the situation in our business better
than anybody else. I mean, you know, the Ministry of
Health has really got very few clues around the delivery
of general practice care. So the number one thing for
us is to actually, let's work together. You want to
achieve better weight times. Actually we want to achieve better
(02:29):
weight times too, But there are ways.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Of doing it, in ways of not doing it.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
So yeah, look, we don't know what the targets will be,
but there's certainly a risk that it will shift behavior
in a way that doesn't give the outcome people want.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Sometimes and what's an example of that, what couldn't we solve?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Would that be rushed rush service sort of thing, not
giving people the right time they want the wrong diagnosis,
that sort of thing, A.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Little bit of that.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
But look, let's say you've got books closed because you
just cannot meet the demands of the patience you've got already,
and so it's an ethical thing to do to close
your box and just look after the people you've made
a promise to work after. If you're going to get
more bunny to have open books at capacity already. If
you open your books, you'll add more patients, there'll be
more work to do, and wait times will grow so
you know, you can see it working that way.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think the.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
Chances of people being unethical to cram more people in
less high, although there is a risk of that, but
you know, you want to do a good job and
we have got ethics that dictate that you actually operate
in a certain way.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
So yeah, I think you said that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You made a comment about we'd like to be part
of it. It sounded like I got the impression you
haven't been consulted about this. This is something you've read
in the headlines, and it's like, oh, well, that's that's
interesting to hear.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It's news to us.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
One hundred percent. You know, no, they no involvement with the
sect or whatever. There's quite a catch cry in patient
care delivery is nothing about us without us, but it
doesn't seem to apply to our service delivery models. But yeah, no, no,
we haven't been consulted at all. We've been advocating for
the increased funding that's come in, but you know it
(04:04):
could be forcial in the way it's it's incentivized if
it is in.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Actually, just can I dig into that a bit, because
if I was a GP or as in your position
as a major organization, I mean the General Practice Owners Association.
I would feel pretty blim and annoyed that you read
an announcement that there's going to be targets set to
you when no one's spoken to you about.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Its welcome red. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Look, I mean, perhaps I shouldn't be too outrageous, but
you know, we hear over and over again that there's
a very deep suspicion and even enmity towards general practice
within the Ministry of Health, and you know, maybe that's true,
maybe it's not.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
We've had some very well connected people say.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
It, and yeah, I think it's that rageous because not
only is there that kind of you know, disappointment that
we're not there, but we actually know it better than
anybody else, and we feel like if we were able
to contribute, we'd have a better outcome for all concerned,
both the doctor's patients and the people who who want
to see their policy succeed.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So what do you understand the announcement is?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So I'm going to need to dig into it a
bit more because it's just, you know, I just assume
you'd be all over this because the Ministry had consulted
you with it, So all you know so far is
that the government government wants to add targets for GP
wait times and beyond that, you're none the wiser.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Well, let's look at the things we do know.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Is there's ninety five million dollars that has been dedicated
to increasing what they call capitation's fees you get for
looking after patients from the state. And then there's been
it's been talked about that there'll be incentives to improve
the access and the minister did mention open books. I
have spoken to an official more since since he said that.
(05:49):
He said, actually he doesn't think it's going to operate
like that, but you know, you have to rely on
the minister's words. So look, that's all we know about
this funding, that the actual dollar figure, and that there
will be some kind of incentivization to try and to
achieve and I think it was wait times of immunization
was mentioned as well.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
But yeah, so those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So in reality, in terms of getting us moving along
and people not having to wait so long for a
GP appointment, what are the things you would really like
to see?
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Well, look, actually, all hinges on workforce and if you
don't have enough staff to deliver service and you can't
get them, you're behind it from the very beginning. And look,
this is this is a problem of decades in the making.
You know, all of the demographics of the general practice
workforce and all the analysis said that we're going to
reach this sort of shortage time around about now because
(06:45):
there's so many people retiring. It's been compounded by somewhat
unattractive terms and conditions nowadays compared with doctors. What doctors
can get elsewhere and nurses, I might say, so whether
it's in the secondary care hospital systems or Australia of course.
So look, this has been taking years of it it's
making Actually it's going to take a while to turn around. Okay,
they're going to be training more doctors, but you know
(07:07):
that's probably twelve years before they're you know, even got
their qualifica full qualification for general practice. We we you know,
the first thing we need to do is stop people leaving,
and they are leaving. And that's so it comes back
to funding, because if you can't offer an attractive proposition,
people will go elsewhere or vote with their and work
(07:28):
vote with their feet. So yeah, that's it's workforce, workforce, workforce.
And they've made some announcements to help improve the workforce,
but again, that's.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Going to take a long time before it comes into effect.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Where we kind of employer doctors, well we can employ them,
we can't find them to employ right now. And this
money will help, but it's not going to fix it soon.
And there's alternative work workforces that are coming through, and look,
you know we use a lot of that at our
practice already.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
But it's a hard talk with either are you're.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Talking about the overseas doctor qualification the way that they
can get certified more efficiently, I guess or quickly in nurse.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Per Yeah, that's one of them. Nurse practitioner training. There's
a group call physicians Associates and look, and there's quite
a lot of dispute around all this stuff, and there
is certainly some evidence that they'll actually cost the system
more because there order more tests, refer more people into
the secondary care, which is vastly more expensive than dealing
with them efficiently and effectively in the community.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So would it be fair for me to say, great,
we love the announcement. It's good to try and do something,
but a little more consultation wouldn't hurt.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Yeah, Look, it's definitely a good start. It's hard to begrudge.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
You know, we're getting extra funding when you know a
lot of people are having cuts.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
So it's a good start.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
We think, cork with us and we'll actually make the
money work better. And yeah, in the future, we'd really
like to have a bit more input around the design
of the system because we know better than anybody else
how it works.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Oh, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Obviously, if you're a part of the General Practice Association,
you've got your own practice, how are you coping in
your practice?
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Look, it's abs and downs, it's quite it's quite hard work.
I mean, there's a lot other things to say about
the extra demands that have come through the General Practice
over the last you know, the end of twenty years.
But you know, it's really unfortunate for us. We've just
had three doctors indicate that they're going to be moving on,
and they're all quite legitimate reasons.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That Australia Australia, Australia.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Oh look, one has a spouse who's got his own
practice and that she's probably gonna move there, and you know,
we have lost them to Australia before.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
But none of these particular ones are going to Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Oh, I really appreciate your time on the staffening and angus.
You can't stick around and comment that on Chris Pink's announcement.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
You'd have to brief me a little bit first, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Hey, thanks very much. I thanks, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The government wants to add GP weight times to the
list of healthcare targets. So we've had health had healthcare
weight targets for a while now with emergency rooms specialist
selective treatments, and it doesn't seem to have made a
hell of a lot of difference. Health Minister Simeon Brown.
He's at the ground running, isn't he. He says there
are far too many people waiting more than a week
to get a doctor's appointment and this could change that.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And the jen pro that is the General.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Proactive Owners Association chair Angus Chambers is with us, and
I think he's with us.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
No, Hello, how you go?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sorry, just had a couple of technical issues distract me
in the background there.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
That's okay. I can comment on environmental issues too, you know.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Hey, well you stay on the line afterwards. What do
you guys? How do you feel about targets? Do they
really do anything?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I have seen targets work to a degree.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
I think there's always a concern with targets that they
create perverse incentives and you design your behavior and a.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Target and sometimes miss other targets.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
But look, when we had an immunization target quite a
long time ago, general practice got very well up towards
the target because of focus on it. So, yeah, there's
an argument for them.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
What's the incentive? And this is just a number in
front of you. It's like having a pacemaker and a race,
is it. You've got someone running at a certain speed
in front of you and you're like, we got to
keep up with this.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Look, there's a little bit of that.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I mean, you know, sometimes incentives have a financial part
of it, So look, you know that's that's always helpful.
I think there's an element of competition, and people don't
like being lower down in a league table a personal
pride thing, so that can sort of have some effect
as well.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So how is it going to work?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Are you going to see is each practice going to
sort of see how it sits with others? Is it
some sort of thing where there's like a ladder that's
sitting in front of everyone and these guys are winning,
these guys losing.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Look, actually, we have no idea how it's going to
be constructed, and we'd really like to be part of
that because we know the situation in our business better
than anybody else. I mean, you know, the Ministry of
Health has really got very few clues around the delivery
of general practice care. So the number one thing for
us is to actually, let's work together. You want to
achieve better weight times. Actually we want to achieve better
(02:29):
weight times too, But there are ways.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Of doing it, in ways of not doing it.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
So yeah, look, we don't know what the targets will be,
but there's certainly a risk that it will shift behavior
in a way that doesn't give the outcome people want.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Sometimes and what's an example of that, what couldn't we solve?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Would that be rushed rush service sort of thing, not
giving people the right time they want the wrong diagnosis,
that sort of thing, A.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Little bit of that.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
But look, let's say you've got books closed because you
just cannot meet the demands of the patience you've got already,
and so it's an ethical thing to do to close
your box and just look after the people you've made
a promise to work after. If you're going to get
more bunny to have open books at capacity already. If
you open your books, you'll add more patients, there'll be
more work to do, and wait times will grow so
you know, you can see it working that way.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think the.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
Chances of people being unethical to cram more people in
less high, although there is a risk of that, but
you know, you want to do a good job and
we have got ethics that dictate that you actually operate
in a certain way.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
So yeah, I think you said that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You made a comment about we'd like to be part
of it. It sounded like I got the impression you
haven't been consulted about this. This is something you've read
in the headlines, and it's like, oh, well, that's that's
interesting to hear.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It's news to us.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
One hundred percent. You know, no, they no involvement with the
sect or whatever. There's quite a catch cry in patient
care delivery is nothing about us without us, but it
doesn't seem to apply to our service delivery models. But yeah, no, no,
we haven't been consulted at all. We've been advocating for
the increased funding that's come in, but you know it
(04:04):
could be forcial in the way it's it's incentivized if
it is in.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Actually, just can I dig into that a bit, because
if I was a GP or as in your position
as a major organization, I mean the General Practice Owners Association.
I would feel pretty blim and annoyed that you read
an announcement that there's going to be targets set to
you when no one's spoken to you about.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Its welcome red. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Look, I mean, perhaps I shouldn't be too outrageous, but
you know, we hear over and over again that there's
a very deep suspicion and even enmity towards general practice
within the Ministry of Health, and you know, maybe that's true,
maybe it's not.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
We've had some very well connected people say.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
It, and yeah, I think it's that rageous because not
only is there that kind of you know, disappointment that
we're not there, but we actually know it better than
anybody else, and we feel like if we were able
to contribute, we'd have a better outcome for all concerned,
both the doctor's patients and the people who who want
to see their policy succeed.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So what do you understand the announcement is?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So I'm going to need to dig into it a
bit more because it's just, you know, I just assume
you'd be all over this because the Ministry had consulted
you with it, So all you know so far is
that the government government wants to add targets for GP
wait times and beyond that, you're none the wiser.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Well, let's look at the things we do know.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Is there's ninety five million dollars that has been dedicated
to increasing what they call capitation's fees you get for
looking after patients from the state. And then there's been
it's been talked about that there'll be incentives to improve
the access and the minister did mention open books. I
have spoken to an official more since since he said that.
(05:49):
He said, actually he doesn't think it's going to operate
like that, but you know, you have to rely on
the minister's words. So look, that's all we know about
this funding, that the actual dollar figure, and that there
will be some kind of incentivization to try and to
achieve and I think it was wait times of immunization
was mentioned as well.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
But yeah, so those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So in reality, in terms of getting us moving along
and people not having to wait so long for a
GP appointment, what are the things you would really like
to see?
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Well, look, actually, all hinges on workforce and if you
don't have enough staff to deliver service and you can't
get them, you're behind it from the very beginning. And look,
this is this is a problem of decades in the making.
You know, all of the demographics of the general practice
workforce and all the analysis said that we're going to
reach this sort of shortage time around about now because
(06:45):
there's so many people retiring. It's been compounded by somewhat
unattractive terms and conditions nowadays compared with doctors. What doctors
can get elsewhere and nurses, I might say, so whether
it's in the secondary care hospital systems or Australia of course.
So look, this has been taking years of it it's
making Actually it's going to take a while to turn around. Okay,
they're going to be training more doctors, but you know
(07:07):
that's probably twelve years before they're you know, even got
their qualifica full qualification for general practice. We we you know,
the first thing we need to do is stop people leaving,
and they are leaving. And that's so it comes back
to funding, because if you can't offer an attractive proposition,
people will go elsewhere or vote with their and work
(07:28):
vote with their feet. So yeah, that's it's workforce, workforce, workforce.
And they've made some announcements to help improve the workforce,
but again, that's.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Going to take a long time before it comes into effect.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Where we kind of employer doctors, well we can employ them,
we can't find them to employ right now. And this
money will help, but it's not going to fix it soon.
And there's alternative work workforces that are coming through, and look,
you know we use a lot of that at our
practice already.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
But it's a hard talk with either are you're.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Talking about the overseas doctor qualification the way that they
can get certified more efficiently, I guess or quickly in nurse.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Per Yeah, that's one of them. Nurse practitioner training. There's
a group call physicians Associates and look, and there's quite
a lot of dispute around all this stuff, and there
is certainly some evidence that they'll actually cost the system
more because there order more tests, refer more people into
the secondary care, which is vastly more expensive than dealing
with them efficiently and effectively in the community.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So would it be fair for me to say, great,
we love the announcement. It's good to try and do something,
but a little more consultation wouldn't hurt.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Yeah, Look, it's definitely a good start. It's hard to begrudge.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
You know, we're getting extra funding when you know a
lot of people are having cuts.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
So it's a good start.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
We think, cork with us and we'll actually make the
money work better. And yeah, in the future, we'd really
like to have a bit more input around the design
of the system because we know better than anybody else
how it works.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Oh, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Obviously, if you're a part of the General Practice Association,
you've got your own practice, how are you coping in
your practice?
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Look, it's abs and downs, it's quite it's quite hard work.
I mean, there's a lot other things to say about
the extra demands that have come through the General Practice
over the last you know, the end of twenty years.
But you know, it's really unfortunate for us. We've just
had three doctors indicate that they're going to be moving on,
and they're all quite legitimate reasons.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That Australia Australia, Australia.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Oh look, one has a spouse who's got his own
practice and that she's probably gonna move there, and you know,
we have lost them to Australia before.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
But none of these particular ones are going to Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Oh, I really appreciate your time on the staffening and angus.
You can't stick around and comment that on Chris Pink's announcement.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
You'd have to brief me a little bit first, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Hey, thanks very much. I thanks, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.