March 29, 2025 • 8 mins
Greens MP Tamatha Paul has come under fire this week after comments about beat patrol police.
She said a lot of people feel less safe with the increase in police on the beat, and claimed that these officers had even been throwing away the belongings of homeless people.
Paul was also in a discussion about what steps could be taken to achieve "radical police abolition", and alternatives to the police.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk
said be Green's.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
MP Tamotha Paul came under fire this week. You'd be
hard pushed pushed to have missed that story after comments
about beat patrol police. She said a lot of people
feel less safe with the increase of police on the
beat and claimed that these officers had even been throwing
away the belongings of homeless people. She made some other
strange ones about people being locked in prison for twelve
dollars thefts and things like that, and she was in
(00:31):
a discussion about what steps could be taken to achieve
radical police abolition and alternatives to the police as an organization. Wow, anyway,
Lance Burdette, he's a former police negotiator and he's with
me now. Lance, Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi Sam here, you're going good.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What was your reaction to all of this?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, I was a little bit set me down, actually,
to be honest, have you I guess if you had
to take out the politics of it all, and maybe
that's it, but everybody has said different opinion about police
and government departments, and it depends on our perception and
our perspective. So if we want to remove the perception
part of it. We use research, right, so what's the
(01:11):
reality of the situation, And the reality of the situation
is around sixty nine percent of people view police back
on the beat as making them feel safe and secure.
But that's it, and we know also that in the
research that it has around it between three weeks and
three months to have a positive impact and it reduces crime,
and then we must bring in other things like different
(01:33):
ways of patrolling, etc. So that's that part of it.
But perspective is more difficult to change. We all see
things differently and it depends on our experiences, our background,
our social viewpoint, media, and a whole range of things
that we've interacted with. And if we've had a bad
interaction with an organization or heard some bad feedback, then
our perspective will be changed negatively, and so that's harder
(01:56):
to change. We have to keep bringing back reality.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Is in a case of there still being a stigma
around the presence of police in some communities or is
it more individual?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think that's probably the case in this one. Absolutely,
there's some communities that I go into and do working
and there's quite a negative perception still of police and
it depends on what's happened. There are some historical things
that have happened to some communities, and when it's broadcast
what more widely, that does affect some parts of the
(02:25):
population more than others.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Do you think that her views are kind of I mean,
I heard Chloe Swarbrick saying she's just reflecting views of
some constituents, which she could use to defend all sorts
of views. But do you think that it's is she
sort of is it almost like an out of date
view of the police, like police who might look back
to the days of the Red Squad and during the
Springbok two and still be hanging on to that sort
of stigma.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Look, I think we do need to have some pushback
on anything we do. If we don't have a leveler
in all of our roles, I mean, you'd be the same.
Look at your job, for example, if you don't get
some negative feedback which you reflect on and you think, oh,
I might just moderate what I said there. That's how
we keep things on a level plan Ayngfield. So, but
probably not to the extreme that I've just seen. I mean,
(03:09):
police thing's never been outdated. I don't know if any
other way of keeping the population safe and secure. We
need to have an organization that's able to do that.
And we keep that organization and check by having a
number of functions through the media, through the Independent Police
Conduct Authority, and a number of other and in fact themselves.
I actually investigated police for a long time. Yeah, and
(03:32):
I'll tell you what, no stones left unto them when
that happens, because we all want to see a good
police and part of if you're part of that organization,
in fact, you have a higher bar. Well I did.
Any way, when we're looking at what went wrong?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Does I mean there are some people who say that
people like some of the ball don't belong in parliament,
But that's up to the voters, of course. But do
you think in a way that it's actually not a
bad thing to have people sort of challenging these things,
no matter how potty or lalla they sound.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It's absolutely one hundred percent. I mean, I think it
was Steve Job said diamonds come from rubbing to rocks together,
and so we do need to have somebody to have
a contrary view and that keeps us all in check.
But also out of that conversation, a look at the
conversation that's happened since that comment was said. We're getting
(04:18):
some great viewpoints of some different ways of things things
and that's how we stay modernized. I guess that's how
we develop as a society.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Just what I mean. Look, it seems her comments around
police abolition and all that sort of stuff to me
just barking mad. Are there any other models around New
Zealand around the world where there's something that isn't a
police force that sort of works, because is it just
a you know, something.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
It's called military.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
See, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That that's the only one that I've seen that actually
works or you know, and that's either from dictatorships, and
we don't want to have that. So in a democracy
there is there is I have not seen. There has
to be policed, right, So we've seen all these utopian
societies where people there is no police and we all
(05:11):
live in harmony. But at some point when somebody steps wrong,
there has to be a committee. You've gone before, so
it just doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Just the people talk about the Marray Wardens and the
role that they play in other community organizations. Can you
just give a description of I don't mean, what's wrong
with that idea, but the limits of that because I
think that would be to try and place the role
of beat police with mary Warden's would be putting a
hell of a lot on mary Wardens, wouldn't it, Because
(05:38):
they can ran, they can be a range of ages
and all sorts of physical competencies as well, despite the
fact they might be great people.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, I've seen it work, and I've seen it work
very very successfully, and it works in other countries. We've
got quite a in New Zealand. We should be very
proud with having out mary Wardens because they have the
ability and even look the cool of the older ones
that get in there and with these young people and
they you know, are able to sort of speak since
(06:09):
because they've been around and they have the respect. So
and we had it when I was first on the beat,
and that was a long time ago to thirty years ago.
We would have that we would meet up with the
Marley Wardens on a night shift and we'd work from
the same office as us and we'd all go out
and you know, and they were able to get into
into homes and into places that police would not ever get.
(06:31):
So having those sorts of things and having and there's
a range of then there's the community patrols as well.
Having range of those is how we do it. We
police ourselves in supporting one organization, I think.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And just finally, do these sort of comments bother police particularly?
And how would you judge the morale of the police
because we have a new police commissioner and everyone seems
that inside the force morale's pretty good, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Oh, morales through the roof?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Really?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
In fact, yeah, I've just been I've been Willington just
for the last two weeks and you can see heads
up and I'm loving seeing an Auckland City police on
the beat. You know, two people walking together. Look, you
could put any amount of ambassadors and street patrols, et cetera.
But when you see two police officers walking down the street,
(07:20):
that has that whole different feeling. That's the feeling of
I'm safe. And so yeah, look, I think comments like
that have been made. I'm not sure. I'd love to
see the research of how we could police without police.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I don't think we're really seriously exploring that. Just one
last question. So I said the last one was the last,
but I've got one more. Why is police? What is
the change that has made police morale so high, because
it's my outsider's view is simply they love the new
police commissioner, the tools that they've been given as well,
and they're cracking.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
On That's exactly it. So when you get some additional
tools to help deal with gettings for example, or any
you know, I'm not just picking on we're talking on
organized criminal gangs. Were not talking gangs and gang patches.
But when you have new tools, a new commissioner who
I have worked with, he's a practical guy and he's
(08:17):
going to he's already made some change at the top.
Is that going on and they've got some new yep. Absolutely,
Mark Mitchell great minister to have there. You know, you
see him out there doing push up and all sorts
of things with them. So having that sort of yeah,
they they're really in a much better place than they were.
They're still getting poached from overseas from Australia, but that's
(08:37):
always been going on. It's been going on for years.
But with this new drive, I'm happy that there's a
whole lot of new younger police officers coming in to
take the place of the ones. At least good stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Hey, Lance really appreciate your time this opening. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk
said be Green's.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
MP Tamotha Paul came under fire this week. You'd be
hard pushed pushed to have missed that story after comments
about beat patrol police. She said a lot of people
feel less safe with the increase of police on the
beat and claimed that these officers had even been throwing
away the belongings of homeless people. She made some other
strange ones about people being locked in prison for twelve
dollars thefts and things like that, and she was in
(00:31):
a discussion about what steps could be taken to achieve
radical police abolition and alternatives to the police as an organization. Wow, anyway,
Lance Burdette, he's a former police negotiator and he's with
me now. Lance, Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi Sam here, you're going good.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What was your reaction to all of this?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, I was a little bit set me down, actually,
to be honest, have you I guess if you had
to take out the politics of it all, and maybe
that's it, but everybody has said different opinion about police
and government departments, and it depends on our perception and
our perspective. So if we want to remove the perception
part of it. We use research, right, so what's the
(01:11):
reality of the situation, And the reality of the situation
is around sixty nine percent of people view police back
on the beat as making them feel safe and secure.
But that's it, and we know also that in the
research that it has around it between three weeks and
three months to have a positive impact and it reduces crime,
and then we must bring in other things like different
(01:33):
ways of patrolling, etc. So that's that part of it.
But perspective is more difficult to change. We all see
things differently and it depends on our experiences, our background,
our social viewpoint, media, and a whole range of things
that we've interacted with. And if we've had a bad
interaction with an organization or heard some bad feedback, then
our perspective will be changed negatively, and so that's harder
(01:56):
to change. We have to keep bringing back reality.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Is in a case of there still being a stigma
around the presence of police in some communities or is
it more individual?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think that's probably the case in this one. Absolutely,
there's some communities that I go into and do working
and there's quite a negative perception still of police and
it depends on what's happened. There are some historical things
that have happened to some communities, and when it's broadcast
what more widely, that does affect some parts of the
(02:25):
population more than others.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Do you think that her views are kind of I mean,
I heard Chloe Swarbrick saying she's just reflecting views of
some constituents, which she could use to defend all sorts
of views. But do you think that it's is she
sort of is it almost like an out of date
view of the police, like police who might look back
to the days of the Red Squad and during the
Springbok two and still be hanging on to that sort
of stigma.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Look, I think we do need to have some pushback
on anything we do. If we don't have a leveler
in all of our roles, I mean, you'd be the same.
Look at your job, for example, if you don't get
some negative feedback which you reflect on and you think, oh,
I might just moderate what I said there. That's how
we keep things on a level plan Ayngfield. So, but
probably not to the extreme that I've just seen. I mean,
(03:09):
police thing's never been outdated. I don't know if any
other way of keeping the population safe and secure. We
need to have an organization that's able to do that.
And we keep that organization and check by having a
number of functions through the media, through the Independent Police
Conduct Authority, and a number of other and in fact themselves.
I actually investigated police for a long time. Yeah, and
(03:32):
I'll tell you what, no stones left unto them when
that happens, because we all want to see a good
police and part of if you're part of that organization,
in fact, you have a higher bar. Well I did.
Any way, when we're looking at what went wrong?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Does I mean there are some people who say that
people like some of the ball don't belong in parliament,
But that's up to the voters, of course. But do
you think in a way that it's actually not a
bad thing to have people sort of challenging these things,
no matter how potty or lalla they sound.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It's absolutely one hundred percent. I mean, I think it
was Steve Job said diamonds come from rubbing to rocks together,
and so we do need to have somebody to have
a contrary view and that keeps us all in check.
But also out of that conversation, a look at the
conversation that's happened since that comment was said. We're getting
(04:18):
some great viewpoints of some different ways of things things
and that's how we stay modernized. I guess that's how
we develop as a society.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Just what I mean. Look, it seems her comments around
police abolition and all that sort of stuff to me
just barking mad. Are there any other models around New
Zealand around the world where there's something that isn't a
police force that sort of works, because is it just
a you know, something.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
It's called military.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
See, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
That that's the only one that I've seen that actually
works or you know, and that's either from dictatorships, and
we don't want to have that. So in a democracy
there is there is I have not seen. There has
to be policed, right, So we've seen all these utopian
societies where people there is no police and we all
(05:11):
live in harmony. But at some point when somebody steps wrong,
there has to be a committee. You've gone before, so
it just doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Just the people talk about the Marray Wardens and the
role that they play in other community organizations. Can you
just give a description of I don't mean, what's wrong
with that idea, but the limits of that because I
think that would be to try and place the role
of beat police with mary Warden's would be putting a
hell of a lot on mary Wardens, wouldn't it, Because
(05:38):
they can ran, they can be a range of ages
and all sorts of physical competencies as well, despite the
fact they might be great people.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, I've seen it work, and I've seen it work
very very successfully, and it works in other countries. We've
got quite a in New Zealand. We should be very
proud with having out mary Wardens because they have the
ability and even look the cool of the older ones
that get in there and with these young people and
they you know, are able to sort of speak since
(06:09):
because they've been around and they have the respect. So
and we had it when I was first on the beat,
and that was a long time ago to thirty years ago.
We would have that we would meet up with the
Marley Wardens on a night shift and we'd work from
the same office as us and we'd all go out
and you know, and they were able to get into
into homes and into places that police would not ever get.
(06:31):
So having those sorts of things and having and there's
a range of then there's the community patrols as well.
Having range of those is how we do it. We
police ourselves in supporting one organization, I think.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And just finally, do these sort of comments bother police particularly?
And how would you judge the morale of the police
because we have a new police commissioner and everyone seems
that inside the force morale's pretty good, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Oh, morales through the roof?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Really?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
In fact, yeah, I've just been I've been Willington just
for the last two weeks and you can see heads
up and I'm loving seeing an Auckland City police on
the beat. You know, two people walking together. Look, you
could put any amount of ambassadors and street patrols, et cetera.
But when you see two police officers walking down the street,
(07:20):
that has that whole different feeling. That's the feeling of
I'm safe. And so yeah, look, I think comments like
that have been made. I'm not sure. I'd love to
see the research of how we could police without police.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I don't think we're really seriously exploring that. Just one
last question. So I said the last one was the last,
but I've got one more. Why is police? What is
the change that has made police morale so high, because
it's my outsider's view is simply they love the new
police commissioner, the tools that they've been given as well,
and they're cracking.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
On That's exactly it. So when you get some additional
tools to help deal with gettings for example, or any
you know, I'm not just picking on we're talking on
organized criminal gangs. Were not talking gangs and gang patches.
But when you have new tools, a new commissioner who
I have worked with, he's a practical guy and he's
(08:17):
going to he's already made some change at the top.
Is that going on and they've got some new yep. Absolutely,
Mark Mitchell great minister to have there. You know, you
see him out there doing push up and all sorts
of things with them. So having that sort of yeah,
they they're really in a much better place than they were.
They're still getting poached from overseas from Australia, but that's
(08:37):
always been going on. It's been going on for years.
But with this new drive, I'm happy that there's a
whole lot of new younger police officers coming in to
take the place of the ones. At least good stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Hey, Lance really appreciate your time this opening. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.