June 14, 2025 • 11 mins
The Prime Minister is on his way to China next week to meet with Xi Jinping.
New Zealand's relationship with the country has been a hot topic recently, with many saying we need to stop cosying up to the United States.
This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness with the States, and how it could be impacting our relationship with China.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. He is on his way
to China this week to meet with Jijinping. New Zealand's
relationship with China has been a bit of a hot
topic recently. Where is it not a hot topic? I
guess many people saying we need to stop cozying up
with the US. This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders
signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness
with the States and how it could impact our relationship
(00:32):
with China. One of them was a former Prime Minister
and co signer of the letter, of course, Helen Clark,
and she joins me now, Helen, Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What would success look like for New Zealand on this trip.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It's a very important trip and it's good that it's happening.
When I was PM, I went to China for a
bilateral visit once every three years, so it has to happen.
It's such a major trade partner. But the visit can't
just be about trade. Important as that is, it's also
a chance to talk with the most senior Chinese leadership
about how they're seeing the world, to make some points
(01:10):
about how New Zealand seeing the world, and have an
all round exchange as the country with which we have
a complex and strategic relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Who drives the agenda and the conversations that had between
prime ministers and premiers.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Pretty much you get to say what you want to say.
I've sat down a number of these formal bilaterals, including
in Beijing. In essence, they will welcome you, they will
make an opening statement of some kind. The meetings with
the President and with the Premier are quite different. The
premier meeting is very much a working meeting, so he
(01:48):
will welcome and then you pretty much get to set
out your whole outline of what you want to say,
and then he will come back and he will answer
point by point. With the President more formal, he will
probably make a more full statement at the beginning. Then
make your statement, which needs to be at quite a
high level, and then there will be probably a shorter exchange.
(02:13):
But they are very important meetings and you need to
go in, you know, totally on top of the brief,
when well prepared.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes to that. Actually, how much time did you used
to spend preparing for such a meeting yourself.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
When you did it, oh, you would swat over the
brief all the way up on the plane really and
make sure you were across every nuance, and you would
meet with the officials beforehand, and you know, just check
check the points you're going to make and what to expect.
So you go in you know, very well briefed.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What do you think Jijunping and the Chinese are likely
expecting from our visit.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I think what they would be hoping is to hear
something a little more balanced about New Zealand foreign policy
than the signals which have been coming through. It's no
surprise to anyone to hear me say that there has
been a lot of moving back towards the US military
alliance that New Zealand abandoned decades ago in under the
(03:19):
current government, and that will be of concerns the Chinese
because they've seen New Zealand as an independent player in
foreign policy matters now. I think our Prime Minister goes
very aware that US foreign policy and defense policy itself
is somewhat erratic these days, so one can only be
(03:40):
hopeful that he will, you know, sort of carefully calibrate
the messages to China because it's a very important relationship
to US. Doesn't mean that we're, you know, a puppet
for them. We're not. We must never be, but we
mustn't be a puppet for anybody, including the US.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I get does that sort of point towards what we
might guess that Luxon may say look as you know,
we might say, look at the United States is an ally,
but he will be wanting to find a way of
emphasizing that we are not told how to react on
any international issue. We are the masters of our own
destiny and that and our independence.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I think he needs to emphasize that, but he also
needs to, in my view, send a signal that New
Zealand is not going full throated into military alliances aimed
at China. Why would you go into military alliances aimed
at your key trading partner. So it's a bit hard
(04:38):
to explain why the current governor's signing up to some
of the things that's signing up to the US, because
they do tend to point in one direction, and that's
at China.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
The open letter that you signed, there's one thing to
sort of talk amongst colleagues and former colleagues and other leaders.
What prompted you to what was the straw that broke
the camel's back In terms of right, we're going to
write an open letter and sign it and present it.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Concerns in the letter we've been expressing for some time.
But I think we also see the opportunity of the
Prime Minister's visit to put the relationship with China back
on a better footing than it's been for the last
eighteen months, when there's been a lot of pop shots
from New Zealand aimed at at China. And look, we
have our differences with China as a country, for sure,
(05:27):
but we've also got a very important relationship, and diplomacy
is about how you manage relationships. I guess our message
is that this visit is very critical and that we
would like to see the good and careful balance New
Zealand foreign policy has had for decades maintained.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Can we still be independent yet have our eyes I mean,
giving back to that point of it raised earlier. Can't
we be close to Washington without alienating Beijing.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I don't think we can carry on down the course
that the current government's on without doing damage to the
China relationship because we're seeing New Zealand sign up to
more and more military agreements with the US. I think
that that will come at a cost to US. I
would say Tai Ho on all that we need both countries.
(06:17):
Both are important markets, right and the US with traditionally
had more political values in common with although I must
say that's pretty much in doubt at the moment when
we see what's happening in the United States of America.
So we need to keep our head. This is a
very difficult time internationally, and New Zealand must maintain the
total freedom to make its own calls.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I mean, there would be people who listened to this
who were seeing how China conducted those exercises, yes, and
open waters and not breaching any laws. But there are
many people would say, well, that's China with an active
intimidation and would respond to your letter in saying that
it smacks of appeasement. What's what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Oh, I didn't think anyone would think that. I think
you know, in the New Zealand community, there's a lot
of people who have been to China, have done business
with China, and who are concerned. If you've got a
lot of exposure to China economically as a kiwi exporter
or tourism provider. You have concerns right now, and I
think our expression of concern for wanting a more balanced
(07:21):
foreign policy to reassert itself will find quite an echo
in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Are you worried about potential changes in China's attitude towards
peace and aggression? I mean, with the world feels a
little bit more tumultuous right now, doesn't it. We've got Ukraine,
We've seen what's going on in the Middle East, China's
always tilting towards Taiwan. Are you concerned about a change
in attitude from China.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I think we need to continue to engage China, which
can play an important role in also helping resolve some
of the world's conflicts. Look for example, at the moment
with the all the issues around Iran. Now China does
keep a strategic relationship with Iran, so you know you
need China as a player. China actually has played a
(08:06):
role in recent times in a rapproshmon of some kind
between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So it can be a
player and it needs to be brought into these conversations
to try in the search for pieces it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Were, Do you think that that's going to be part
of what Luxein's aiming for and has chats with the Chinese.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Well, if I sort of put myself in Luclean's position
and think of what would be on my radar going
into that meeting, I would be very interested to know
what the Chinese are thinking about how to pull the
Middle East back from the brink of outright war. Their
views would be very important. You know, what cards can
(08:49):
they play? What are they saying to the Saudis, What
are they saying to the Iranians? What are they saying
to the US? Because China is a major power, it
does have voice, it does have influence. Now better that
it's used for good.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Actually, just when you went over trips, did you ever
would you have ever accepted advice from former prime ministers
on how to approach the relationship with the country.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Or what I would have been very interested. I would
have been very interested in their advice. I mean, take,
for example, Jim Bolger, who had a solid seven years
in the job and had visited China, you know, kind
of rathered up the same frequency as I did. Jenny
Shipley also had a good relationship with China. I've kept
(09:34):
in touch with John Key over the years. He's done
his best to position New Zealand will with China. And
I'm sure Chris lux And listens to John, so I
think you know we can be useful. We do, you know,
have perspectives. We have done the hard yards, and certainly
I do note that Chris Luxon didn't just dismiss our
(09:55):
comments out of hand, because he does know that some
of us have been around done the hard yards.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And I guess the conversations you're talking about with Iran
in the middle eas are those opportunities where you're not
actually focused on New Zealand or China when you discuss
between leaders, how can we solve this other problem? Are
those are those particularly strong opportunities to build relationships.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Very strong opportunities to get a readout from major player
as to what they think is happening and to offer
a New Zealand perspective. It's the same with all the
major bilaterals. You have the Prime ministers going on to
meet a lot of Western leaders at the NATO summit. Again,
that's a major opportunity to touch base with many many
(10:41):
leaders and put a New Zealand's stake in the ground,
as it were, as to what our hopes are not.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Wanting to end on too trivilla note, But did you
tune in and check out the Trumpe's parade.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I haven't had a chance yet. I've been looking at
some of the social media would I've been writing say
it was a bit of a damp squib. I saw
a little bit of footage where there seem to be
a lot of empty seats along the way. Of course,
these huge crowds with the no King parades and a
lot of cities across the state. Look, look, this is
a sadly very divided country and no one wants to
(11:15):
see the US like this. I'm devastated by the the
killings of the Democrat legislators just just horrible. The US
needs to pull itself back from the brink. This is
not the way to go.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Thanks Helen, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks
very much. Yeah byye.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to news
Talks there'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. He is on his way
to China this week to meet with Jijinping. New Zealand's
relationship with China has been a bit of a hot
topic recently. Where is it not a hot topic? I
guess many people saying we need to stop cozying up
with the US. This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders
signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness
with the States and how it could impact our relationship
(00:32):
with China. One of them was a former Prime Minister
and co signer of the letter, of course, Helen Clark,
and she joins me now, Helen, Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What would success look like for New Zealand on this trip.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It's a very important trip and it's good that it's happening.
When I was PM, I went to China for a
bilateral visit once every three years, so it has to happen.
It's such a major trade partner. But the visit can't
just be about trade. Important as that is, it's also
a chance to talk with the most senior Chinese leadership
about how they're seeing the world, to make some points
(01:10):
about how New Zealand seeing the world, and have an
all round exchange as the country with which we have
a complex and strategic relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Who drives the agenda and the conversations that had between
prime ministers and premiers.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Pretty much you get to say what you want to say.
I've sat down a number of these formal bilaterals, including
in Beijing. In essence, they will welcome you, they will
make an opening statement of some kind. The meetings with
the President and with the Premier are quite different. The
premier meeting is very much a working meeting, so he
(01:48):
will welcome and then you pretty much get to set
out your whole outline of what you want to say,
and then he will come back and he will answer
point by point. With the President more formal, he will
probably make a more full statement at the beginning. Then
make your statement, which needs to be at quite a
high level, and then there will be probably a shorter exchange.
(02:13):
But they are very important meetings and you need to
go in, you know, totally on top of the brief,
when well prepared.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes to that. Actually, how much time did you used
to spend preparing for such a meeting yourself.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
When you did it, oh, you would swat over the
brief all the way up on the plane really and
make sure you were across every nuance, and you would
meet with the officials beforehand, and you know, just check
check the points you're going to make and what to expect.
So you go in you know, very well briefed.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What do you think Jijunping and the Chinese are likely
expecting from our visit.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I think what they would be hoping is to hear
something a little more balanced about New Zealand foreign policy
than the signals which have been coming through. It's no
surprise to anyone to hear me say that there has
been a lot of moving back towards the US military
alliance that New Zealand abandoned decades ago in under the
(03:19):
current government, and that will be of concerns the Chinese
because they've seen New Zealand as an independent player in
foreign policy matters now. I think our Prime Minister goes
very aware that US foreign policy and defense policy itself
is somewhat erratic these days, so one can only be
(03:40):
hopeful that he will, you know, sort of carefully calibrate
the messages to China because it's a very important relationship
to US. Doesn't mean that we're, you know, a puppet
for them. We're not. We must never be, but we
mustn't be a puppet for anybody, including the US.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I get does that sort of point towards what we
might guess that Luxon may say look as you know,
we might say, look at the United States is an ally,
but he will be wanting to find a way of
emphasizing that we are not told how to react on
any international issue. We are the masters of our own
destiny and that and our independence.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I think he needs to emphasize that, but he also
needs to, in my view, send a signal that New
Zealand is not going full throated into military alliances aimed
at China. Why would you go into military alliances aimed
at your key trading partner. So it's a bit hard
(04:38):
to explain why the current governor's signing up to some
of the things that's signing up to the US, because
they do tend to point in one direction, and that's
at China.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
The open letter that you signed, there's one thing to
sort of talk amongst colleagues and former colleagues and other leaders.
What prompted you to what was the straw that broke
the camel's back In terms of right, we're going to
write an open letter and sign it and present it.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Concerns in the letter we've been expressing for some time.
But I think we also see the opportunity of the
Prime Minister's visit to put the relationship with China back
on a better footing than it's been for the last
eighteen months, when there's been a lot of pop shots
from New Zealand aimed at at China. And look, we
have our differences with China as a country, for sure,
(05:27):
but we've also got a very important relationship, and diplomacy
is about how you manage relationships. I guess our message
is that this visit is very critical and that we
would like to see the good and careful balance New
Zealand foreign policy has had for decades maintained.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Can we still be independent yet have our eyes I mean,
giving back to that point of it raised earlier. Can't
we be close to Washington without alienating Beijing.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I don't think we can carry on down the course
that the current government's on without doing damage to the
China relationship because we're seeing New Zealand sign up to
more and more military agreements with the US. I think
that that will come at a cost to US. I
would say Tai Ho on all that we need both countries.
(06:17):
Both are important markets, right and the US with traditionally
had more political values in common with although I must
say that's pretty much in doubt at the moment when
we see what's happening in the United States of America.
So we need to keep our head. This is a
very difficult time internationally, and New Zealand must maintain the
total freedom to make its own calls.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I mean, there would be people who listened to this
who were seeing how China conducted those exercises, yes, and
open waters and not breaching any laws. But there are
many people would say, well, that's China with an active
intimidation and would respond to your letter in saying that
it smacks of appeasement. What's what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Oh, I didn't think anyone would think that. I think
you know, in the New Zealand community, there's a lot
of people who have been to China, have done business
with China, and who are concerned. If you've got a
lot of exposure to China economically as a kiwi exporter
or tourism provider. You have concerns right now, and I
think our expression of concern for wanting a more balanced
(07:21):
foreign policy to reassert itself will find quite an echo
in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Are you worried about potential changes in China's attitude towards
peace and aggression? I mean, with the world feels a
little bit more tumultuous right now, doesn't it. We've got Ukraine,
We've seen what's going on in the Middle East, China's
always tilting towards Taiwan. Are you concerned about a change
in attitude from China.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I think we need to continue to engage China, which
can play an important role in also helping resolve some
of the world's conflicts. Look for example, at the moment
with the all the issues around Iran. Now China does
keep a strategic relationship with Iran, so you know you
need China as a player. China actually has played a
(08:06):
role in recent times in a rapproshmon of some kind
between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So it can be a
player and it needs to be brought into these conversations
to try in the search for pieces it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Were, Do you think that that's going to be part
of what Luxein's aiming for and has chats with the Chinese.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Well, if I sort of put myself in Luclean's position
and think of what would be on my radar going
into that meeting, I would be very interested to know
what the Chinese are thinking about how to pull the
Middle East back from the brink of outright war. Their
views would be very important. You know, what cards can
(08:49):
they play? What are they saying to the Saudis, What
are they saying to the Iranians? What are they saying
to the US? Because China is a major power, it
does have voice, it does have influence. Now better that
it's used for good.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Actually, just when you went over trips, did you ever
would you have ever accepted advice from former prime ministers
on how to approach the relationship with the country.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Or what I would have been very interested. I would
have been very interested in their advice. I mean, take,
for example, Jim Bolger, who had a solid seven years
in the job and had visited China, you know, kind
of rathered up the same frequency as I did. Jenny
Shipley also had a good relationship with China. I've kept
(09:34):
in touch with John Key over the years. He's done
his best to position New Zealand will with China. And
I'm sure Chris lux And listens to John, so I
think you know we can be useful. We do, you know,
have perspectives. We have done the hard yards, and certainly
I do note that Chris Luxon didn't just dismiss our
(09:55):
comments out of hand, because he does know that some
of us have been around done the hard yards.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And I guess the conversations you're talking about with Iran
in the middle eas are those opportunities where you're not
actually focused on New Zealand or China when you discuss
between leaders, how can we solve this other problem? Are
those are those particularly strong opportunities to build relationships.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Very strong opportunities to get a readout from major player
as to what they think is happening and to offer
a New Zealand perspective. It's the same with all the
major bilaterals. You have the Prime ministers going on to
meet a lot of Western leaders at the NATO summit. Again,
that's a major opportunity to touch base with many many
(10:41):
leaders and put a New Zealand's stake in the ground,
as it were, as to what our hopes are not.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Wanting to end on too trivilla note, But did you
tune in and check out the Trumpe's parade.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I haven't had a chance yet. I've been looking at
some of the social media would I've been writing say
it was a bit of a damp squib. I saw
a little bit of footage where there seem to be
a lot of empty seats along the way. Of course,
these huge crowds with the no King parades and a
lot of cities across the state. Look, look, this is
a sadly very divided country and no one wants to
(11:15):
see the US like this. I'm devastated by the the
killings of the Democrat legislators just just horrible. The US
needs to pull itself back from the brink. This is
not the way to go.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Thanks Helen, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks
very much. Yeah byye.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to news
Talks there'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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