July 5, 2025 • 22 mins
Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop is visiting New York to see the success of their congestion charging.
He's proposing a similar pricing strategy back here, but is it plausible for our roads?
What can be done to solve our traffic issues?
Andrew Dickens is joined by Martin Glynn, AA Policy Director...
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop is heading to the States. In fact,
he's already there for a range of meetings across housing, planning,
development and transport. Now notably, he's visiting New York to
speak to city officials about their introduction of congestion pricing
on our roads and he wants to see how it
(00:30):
works and how it's faring so over there, the results
of charging people to use the roads and peak times
have looked promising so far, and Chris has been quoted
as saying we need to learn some lessons that we
could take back here. But the question is how does
it work. Would it work, does it stop congestion? Is
it a money grab? All sorts of questions about it.
(00:51):
So to talk about congestion pricing, I have online AA's
policy director Martin Glenn. Welcome to the show. Martin, Thank
you for joining us this Sunday.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thanks for heaving me on.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So number one, what is congestion pricing.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's basically putting a price on using a road or
part of the road network when the roads its busiest time,
so typically peak times. Although we see in places like
London where they're sort of busy all day. It can
be a twelve hour charge.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Are you on speakerphone?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, I'm not. Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I can't hear you. You're just a little bit echoe.
You've got the earbuds in or something like that.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No, really, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I hope you hope You're not in the loop. So
you've got the congestion pricing. You go on a road
that has been identified as being congested and then they
stick a tax on it. Let's be honest, it is
a tax. It's an indirect tax. They stick a tax
on it. What is the point of that.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's mainly trying to encourage people to think about whether
they need to be on the network at that time.
Obviously people getting to go into work who don't have
options do. The theory is there's a bunch of people
who can don't need to make their trip at that time,
or maybe able to use public transport, and that will
free the network up a little bit for everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So weeds out the users from those people who are
casually using it to those people who have to use it.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That's the objective, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Okay, and it's very common. You're talking about London, we're
talking about New York, and I know it exists in Australia.
It's very common.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I wouldn't describe it as common law. I would say
it's in a handful of cities. I count about nine.
It's not sending on in Australia. New York is the only
city in North America that has it. New York's pretty
unique in North American context because it's very dense, as
we all know, and it's got a pretty decent public
transpit system in the form of subway.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
But can you also argue though that toll roads, for instance,
are in fact indirectly congestion text.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Increasingly they're being locked at that way. Generally, their main
purpose is to contribute funds towards the construction of that road.
In other words, putting a toll on it enables it
to be brought forward and builtically then would be possible
just using other funds. But increasingly, yes, the government's plan
(03:18):
toll for the Penmic Road on the funnel power of
Peninsula has has a transport demand element to it and
be going to have a higher toll on at peak times.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, of course, anytime you've got a toll on a road,
you have to sit there and go do I can
I be bothered in fact, flicking some money to the
council or the government for using this road. We've seen
that with the k roads and Tarong, which hasn't been
used nearly as much as it could have been used
because there was a charge on it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yes, that road quite a few years ago. It was
taken over by MVPA. We understand the latest information it
is pretty heavily use it. In fact, it's due to
pay itself off, believe or not, which is going to
be pretty unusual in the New Zealand context by about
twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Do you know that? Sorry, we're getting a little bit
distracted here, but it's a good topic because I think
Tarong is right for congestion as well. Do you know
when they pay the road off, will they be removing
the toll or will they keep it as a nurse
SAT's sort of congestion pricing.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I understand there's a commitment to take the toll off.
That could of course be changed by changing regulations. All right,
some teachers that comes off.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
So if a toll, no, sorry, if a congestion charge
is put on an existing road that we've already paid
for and that we have used for free. But that
road is a state highway. That is the government's responsibility
to put the congestion charge on, and therefore the government's
responsibility to collect the money.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
So there's a draft bill before Parliament at the moment.
The way they see the bill for poysers, congestion charging
will work as an NZTA, So the State Highway Agency, yes,
will definitely have the lead, but it will need to
work with local authorities in putting a scheme together.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, And if a mayor say, I don't know, Wayne
Brown thought this is a good idea, and he has
most of the roads in orcand under his control through
at if he sees that and he puts on congestion pricing,
the money will go straight to the council.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
No. Under the under the bowl. The proposal is once
the revenue first goes to making congestion charging work, in
other words, paying for the cameras and operating the system,
whatever is left under the bill as an agreement between
the Minister surprisingly the Minister of Transport and the local authority.
(05:38):
They've got to come to an agreement as to how
that revenue is spent.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, indeed, and way Brown has already talked about this.
He says, if the government starts taking money out of
his district, he wants the money then reinvested in the
district and not going straight into some consolidated fund and dissipating.
Could that be guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Unless they change the bill. It is guaranteed because the
bill requires all the revenue be spent on transport in
the region where the congestion charge is.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, we think that's pretty important. We think putting congestion
charging in New Zealand is a pretty radical thing to do,
so we actually think the first priority for the revenue
should be on making the scheme itself work better, so
that maybe thing like extra extra public transport routes or
even some road improvements around the boundary, if that's what's
(06:30):
going to be needed. Lond' certainly had to do that,
so we would put that ahead of the rest of
the region. But anything anything left of our view should
definitely go towards regional transport improvements.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Why does the AA think this is a radical thing
to do.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
It's not so much that congestion charging is radical, and
I should stress we're very, very open to it. We
don't think anything else is going to solve Auckland's congestion problem.
In particular, it's more that it hasn't been put in
place in a city that's very reliant, is fact growing
really off the back of the mobility of cars, and
(07:06):
so unlike the examples of your son that you've cited London,
New York, remember it's just downtown Manhattan, Auckland doesn't have
the public transport network that provides everybody with alternatives, certainly
beyond the city center. So that's why we see it's radical,
the fact that it's not there aren't in the other
cities we can put to that are similar and talk
(07:28):
in that respect.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So would it be fair that you support the idea
but you would prefer for it to wait until Auckland
or Taranga or anywhere can provide an alternative option for
people to commuse them.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Now, it's probably a little more complicated than that. I
think rareast thick clay whether the sort of travel patterns
people make, particularly in Auckland and Towering in other words,
are all over the place. The houses are scattered, the
jobs are very very scattered. That there's no there's not
any med public transport solution. We're very open to the idea.
(08:09):
I guess we've got to see that we support the legislation.
We've got to see that go through. It's then coming
up with a proposal that, from our point of view,
will mean people can still meet their travel needs, whether
that's getting to work, education, or things like ongoing medical appointments.
Because we are very reliant on cars.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, and that is very very true. So I know
that one area that they're thinking about in Auckland, just
to get quite local here is the area from Penrose
through to Newmarket and the state Highway Number one, they're
the Southern Motorway. If a congestion charge came on there,
how much impact would that have on the profitability of
(08:48):
businesses that operate that have been using that road that
they've already paid for with their taxes so far. I mean,
is this going to slow not just the traffic or
slow the congestion, Is it also going to slow the economy?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I think that's really good question, and the short answer is,
we just don't know. It's been looked at around the world.
In the evidence I've seen is quite mixed and the
Seedlight London that has completely jammed up. Congestion charging is
as much about freeing space up for public transform and
walking cycling as it is freeing the congestion of the
(09:27):
roads on the network. It could have some local economic
compacts and would expect that to all get looked at
very carefully when the mayor or whoever's driving a steam
proposal puts it all together for the public to say,
thinks about it all.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, Look, obviously the mayor of ukins has been quite
keen on it. Obviously the Transport Minister is quite keen
on it. He's in New York looking at it as
we speak. But you have already said, you know, you
kind of do need the options in there, the public
transport options in there before you consider it. So why
are they considering this prematurely? Is it because there's no
(10:04):
other to the problems that we have?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, probably a two part answer. Congestion charging everywhere in
the world, apart from sing apportents even Debble and Singapore
is in the city center. So where would argue now,
particularly when the city rally comes online for Auckland next year,
options to the city center are pretty good, so you
could put a congestion charge there, but it's not going
(10:32):
to deal with a problem on the motorway network. So
it's really can we come up with something that will
work for Aucklander's maybe a low level charge that's enough
to get the discretionary trips that people don't need to
make a peak times. Often that we get people thinking
about whether they can make that trip later or even
not at all, but without having without harming the people
(10:53):
who don't have the kind of extensive public transport options
you do in a New York or London.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The problem is, you know, as an Orchandor, I can
tell you the congestion problem is not in the central city,
but it's getting into the city or going through the city.
As I've already said, the problems are at Northcote, the
problems are at Penrose, Green Lane and Newmarket. So you
know that that sort of debunks the theory.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, I think that's there, and that's the challenge of
the city that we have. You know, we don't have
the density and there we don't have the public transport
options of other people. The congestion problem is very, very
large for the Auckland councils recently estimated at two points
(11:39):
at the billion dollars a year. The key thing is
whether we can come up with a congestion charge that
will work, as you say, for where that big problem
is on the motorway network and it's pretty widespread, but
while still enabling people to you know who, particularly low
income people who tend not to have great public transport options,
(12:03):
to still meet their travel needs. That's what we're looking for.
Some careful thinking about that. It's got to work in
an Auckland context. That's certainly not something we can cut
and paste from Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
And based on the fact that you really that the
examples we have so far are in CBDs in central
city areas, you'd have to say that Wellington is a
sister as well, because the transport options we have had
there to try and transverse the city, including the flyover
and amazing ideas of tunnels in Wellington as samm Brown
came up with as well, Wellington could also be a
(12:35):
sister for this sort of thing. In fact, you could
almost argue that, based on the models that exist, it
is more likely or more possible there than in Auckland
one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Wellington's Warringtonians might not think this but if you compare
with the rest of Australia, it's got a good public
transport network, it's got a really strong CBD. Both Highway
one and Highway two feed into it. It would congestion
charging of work in Wellington. It's just that the problem
is massive than Auckland. So yeah, I'm true.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Well look mate, I've been trapped in some awesome Wellington
traffic jams. So don't you worry about that and the
problem you say about public transport options and Wellington, And
that does exist north of the city, but that does
not exist from Miramar, you know, and Setune into the
city and from the airport to the city there's very
little public transport option there other than one tiny one
lane tunnel.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, great, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Ye, he says. Okay, So Chris is over there right now,
by the way. If anybody wants to talk about this
and say their feelings, the number is open. I wait,
one hundred and eighty ten eighty is a numbered the phone?
Do you agree with congestion pricing? Will it affect the
productivity of your business or are you prepared to pay
the cost to get the roads flowing better so that
you can actually get through do your work better. You know,
(13:54):
if you're trade if you go in through town the
whole time and getting stuck behind some you know, family
group who are using the motorway to pick up kids
from school? Would you like those off? And you're way clear?
Only one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number
of the phone. How much do you reckon? The congestion
pricing would be? I mean, what's the cost? I keep
on thinking one dollar two dollars gold coin donation. What
(14:16):
do you think?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Oh, I don't think so, because of the lack of
really competitive options. I suspect it would be need to
be a lot higher than that. Some fairly and depth
where officials did in twenty twenty had it about three
dollars fifty at the busiest time in the peak network.
They wanted to graduate a charge so it would vary
by by the half hour. Actually, if you were to
(14:38):
grow sart up today would be close to five dollars.
I suspect that's the sort of sum that you're going
to need. It be needed to kind of get people
to kind of make behavioral change that they really don't
want to. We'll have to wait and see.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And how and how would the price be collected? I
mean we're used to tell Rhodes overseas and in Australia
you've got a card and you go through a gate
and there's more money going out of your account right now.
And I presume that'd have to be the same in
a New Zealand context, because you're not going to go
through a toll gate.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
An't no similar to the overseas one. So it would
use automatic number plate recognition cameras like we have on
bus lanes on our toll roads. Now people could regularly
users would would set up an account so that they
can sort of get get get bold and don't have
to do things all the time. But if it's regardless,
(15:31):
it would snap you underplate and identify who owns the
vehicle and where the charge goes.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And so the issuing of a system to collect the
tax would have set up costs in itself. Would that
be expensive, difficult, hard and take a long time to do?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I don't think potectically hard, because it's been done elsewhere,
and because the technology is all E is. Like I said,
it's US, it's used for tollroads. It would be a fear,
you know, it would be fairly complicated to set up
a big back off to do all a bullying and
click everything. But you know we could, we could, We
could learn a lot from the overseas overseas city. So,
(16:12):
I mean, I think the hardest thing getting this the
line is going to be enough public acceptance that it's needed,
rather than the technology. Per se.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
While I've got you on the line, State Highay too
and State Highway five at the bay plenty, you're about
to get point to point safety cameras. We know them
as speed cameras. Uh, there's already some around Metakana and
a few other places. Uh is this a fairer way
of running a speed camera rather than the static cameras
that we currently have?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
The static cameras are very fair now they've got signing
sign of course, every everybody gets worn. Arguably it is.
I mean, you can say, I guess a certain group
of motive us no doubt, slow down for the for
the camera and then speed up again. A point to
point will address that if you're if you're speeding along
the way.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Obviously absolutely mean your average speed exceeds the speed of it,
So you are obviously a speeder rather than someone who
in one moment of the time, due to circumstances, exceeds
the speed limit and then gets pinged. Yep, correct, very good, Martin.
So final questions, do you think it's certain that they're coming?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
It feels very likely. I know there are a lot
of people that are quite skeptical. We surveyed our members
last year. We got sixteen thousand responses, which is pretty
high for us. And there's not a lot of support
out there for it in the public. Legislation doesn't require
a ministery satisfyber level of public support, which is a
case of toll roads incidentally, So it feels like that
(17:46):
the government's fairly to determine the problem is very large
and it's getting worse. The solutions are alternative solutions, be
they additional road capacity in the built up area or
more and more public transport to address it, are just
not tenable. So and then you've got a mere as
you say, who's who's actively championing it and what's feel
(18:08):
in place as soon as possible. So it does feel
very very likely. But I just I haven't got a
read on where the public sit it and how much
you know, doing it over line how much So I'll
listen to what the public thinks.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, Hello, this is what we're here for. Are the
one hundred and eighty ten eighty years up the phone?
Could I hear from the public how you feel about this?
And if the Transport Minister comes back from New York
or gung ho about the idea and Wayne says, see,
I told you it was a good idea. If they
do decide to pull the plan, how soon before suddenly
it's a reality would it take to actually institute the system?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Well, interestingly, that so first steft is passing the legislation.
The government said that'll happen by the end of this year.
That seems very likely. But interesting the bill has a
clause in it which means that although the pass that
doesn't come into effect for another year, so that would
be sort of the end of twenty twenty slips at
the earliest. You can form your own theory as to
(19:03):
why that might be. And then and then after that,
assuming orkom as this kep off the week, it would
need to design a scheme that meets the requirements for
legislation and go for a fairly comprehensive public transport right
public consultation process. So well late twenty seven, early twenty
(19:23):
eight at the Unius.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Late twenty seven early twenty eight. That's fantastic. Of course,
you know they could always fast track it. That's what
this government likes. They could always fast track it. But
you never know. Martin, you have spoken very well and
very informatively about this issue for ten minutes and I
thank you very much for your time this Sunday and
enjoyed the rest of your weekend.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
You're most welcome. Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
So there we go by one hundred and eighty. Ten
eighty is a number the phone end of twenty six,
early twenty seven. There could be congestion pricing. It could
be brought in by the government. The good thing I
hear is that the bill at the moment to say
any money raised in the area should go back to
an area. But do you trust the government to do so?
And the other big question I have for anybody who
you know is in business, do you think this would
(20:08):
actually is yet another impost of the profitability of your business.
It's another cost of living increase. Okay, some of the
reaction we've had already. They had the congestion charge in
central London for years. It keeps all the plunkers away
in rush hour traffic. Apparently, according to the text, it
started at ten am and it stopped at ten am
(20:29):
and started back up again at three thirty pm, so
it's just for the rush hours. A Texas says, life
is changing, Andrew, and if we need to change our
habits and start acting like a modern society, then congestion
charges are a no brainer. Andrew A Texas says, the
problem is Auckland's massive size for what is a small city.
(20:50):
And remember that London fixed a lot of this traffic
by building rail into London. First station Euston eighteen thirty seven,
then Paddington the underground of course is amazing. Then all
the other stations came through Fenchurch eighteen forty one, Waterloo
eighteen forty eight, King's Cross eighteen fifty two. They were
all solving congestion before people were committed and addicted to cars,
(21:12):
and it brought people into London. And they're saying that's
what we need to do. We can have a congestion
pricing if we have a decent public transport system. Bit
to catch twenty two though, you have to say because
people go I don't like spending on public transport. Public
transport doesn't work. I want to drive my car and
we turn around and say, okay, that's going to cost you.
I don't want it to cost me. And then they
(21:34):
say it is going to cost you, even though we
don't have an option, an alternative option. People aren't on
the motorway for fun. They have to work and money
is very tight. This is fleecing people unnecessarily, and we'll
have consequences, the words of Mike Chris Bishop Is in
New York, We're going to be hearing this debate an
(21:55):
awful lot over the next six months. It is twenty
nine to four.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
postcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop is heading to the States. In fact,
he's already there for a range of meetings across housing, planning,
development and transport. Now notably, he's visiting New York to
speak to city officials about their introduction of congestion pricing
on our roads and he wants to see how it
(00:30):
works and how it's faring so over there, the results
of charging people to use the roads and peak times
have looked promising so far, and Chris has been quoted
as saying we need to learn some lessons that we
could take back here. But the question is how does
it work. Would it work, does it stop congestion? Is
it a money grab? All sorts of questions about it.
(00:51):
So to talk about congestion pricing, I have online AA's
policy director Martin Glenn. Welcome to the show. Martin, Thank
you for joining us this Sunday.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thanks for heaving me on.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So number one, what is congestion pricing.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's basically putting a price on using a road or
part of the road network when the roads its busiest time,
so typically peak times. Although we see in places like
London where they're sort of busy all day. It can
be a twelve hour charge.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Are you on speakerphone?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, I'm not. Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I can't hear you. You're just a little bit echoe.
You've got the earbuds in or something like that.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No, really, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I hope you hope You're not in the loop. So
you've got the congestion pricing. You go on a road
that has been identified as being congested and then they
stick a tax on it. Let's be honest, it is
a tax. It's an indirect tax. They stick a tax
on it. What is the point of that.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's mainly trying to encourage people to think about whether
they need to be on the network at that time.
Obviously people getting to go into work who don't have
options do. The theory is there's a bunch of people
who can don't need to make their trip at that time,
or maybe able to use public transport, and that will
free the network up a little bit for everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So weeds out the users from those people who are
casually using it to those people who have to use it.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That's the objective, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Okay, and it's very common. You're talking about London, we're
talking about New York, and I know it exists in Australia.
It's very common.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I wouldn't describe it as common law. I would say
it's in a handful of cities. I count about nine.
It's not sending on in Australia. New York is the only
city in North America that has it. New York's pretty
unique in North American context because it's very dense, as
we all know, and it's got a pretty decent public
transpit system in the form of subway.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
But can you also argue though that toll roads, for instance,
are in fact indirectly congestion text.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Increasingly they're being locked at that way. Generally, their main
purpose is to contribute funds towards the construction of that road.
In other words, putting a toll on it enables it
to be brought forward and builtically then would be possible
just using other funds. But increasingly, yes, the government's plan
(03:18):
toll for the Penmic Road on the funnel power of
Peninsula has has a transport demand element to it and
be going to have a higher toll on at peak times.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, of course, anytime you've got a toll on a road,
you have to sit there and go do I can
I be bothered in fact, flicking some money to the
council or the government for using this road. We've seen
that with the k roads and Tarong, which hasn't been
used nearly as much as it could have been used
because there was a charge on it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yes, that road quite a few years ago. It was
taken over by MVPA. We understand the latest information it
is pretty heavily use it. In fact, it's due to
pay itself off, believe or not, which is going to
be pretty unusual in the New Zealand context by about
twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Do you know that? Sorry, we're getting a little bit
distracted here, but it's a good topic because I think
Tarong is right for congestion as well. Do you know
when they pay the road off, will they be removing
the toll or will they keep it as a nurse
SAT's sort of congestion pricing.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I understand there's a commitment to take the toll off.
That could of course be changed by changing regulations. All right,
some teachers that comes off.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
So if a toll, no, sorry, if a congestion charge
is put on an existing road that we've already paid
for and that we have used for free. But that
road is a state highway. That is the government's responsibility
to put the congestion charge on, and therefore the government's
responsibility to collect the money.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
So there's a draft bill before Parliament at the moment.
The way they see the bill for poysers, congestion charging
will work as an NZTA, So the State Highway Agency, yes,
will definitely have the lead, but it will need to
work with local authorities in putting a scheme together.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, And if a mayor say, I don't know, Wayne
Brown thought this is a good idea, and he has
most of the roads in orcand under his control through
at if he sees that and he puts on congestion pricing,
the money will go straight to the council.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
No. Under the under the bowl. The proposal is once
the revenue first goes to making congestion charging work, in
other words, paying for the cameras and operating the system,
whatever is left under the bill as an agreement between
the Minister surprisingly the Minister of Transport and the local authority.
(05:38):
They've got to come to an agreement as to how
that revenue is spent.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, indeed, and way Brown has already talked about this.
He says, if the government starts taking money out of
his district, he wants the money then reinvested in the
district and not going straight into some consolidated fund and dissipating.
Could that be guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Unless they change the bill. It is guaranteed because the
bill requires all the revenue be spent on transport in
the region where the congestion charge is.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, we think that's pretty important. We think putting congestion
charging in New Zealand is a pretty radical thing to do,
so we actually think the first priority for the revenue
should be on making the scheme itself work better, so
that maybe thing like extra extra public transport routes or
even some road improvements around the boundary, if that's what's
(06:30):
going to be needed. Lond' certainly had to do that,
so we would put that ahead of the rest of
the region. But anything anything left of our view should
definitely go towards regional transport improvements.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Why does the AA think this is a radical thing
to do.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
It's not so much that congestion charging is radical, and
I should stress we're very, very open to it. We
don't think anything else is going to solve Auckland's congestion problem.
In particular, it's more that it hasn't been put in
place in a city that's very reliant, is fact growing
really off the back of the mobility of cars, and
(07:06):
so unlike the examples of your son that you've cited London,
New York, remember it's just downtown Manhattan, Auckland doesn't have
the public transport network that provides everybody with alternatives, certainly
beyond the city center. So that's why we see it's radical,
the fact that it's not there aren't in the other
cities we can put to that are similar and talk
(07:28):
in that respect.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So would it be fair that you support the idea
but you would prefer for it to wait until Auckland
or Taranga or anywhere can provide an alternative option for
people to commuse them.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Now, it's probably a little more complicated than that. I
think rareast thick clay whether the sort of travel patterns
people make, particularly in Auckland and Towering in other words,
are all over the place. The houses are scattered, the
jobs are very very scattered. That there's no there's not
any med public transport solution. We're very open to the idea.
(08:09):
I guess we've got to see that we support the legislation.
We've got to see that go through. It's then coming
up with a proposal that, from our point of view,
will mean people can still meet their travel needs, whether
that's getting to work, education, or things like ongoing medical appointments.
Because we are very reliant on cars.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, and that is very very true. So I know
that one area that they're thinking about in Auckland, just
to get quite local here is the area from Penrose
through to Newmarket and the state Highway Number one, they're
the Southern Motorway. If a congestion charge came on there,
how much impact would that have on the profitability of
(08:48):
businesses that operate that have been using that road that
they've already paid for with their taxes so far. I mean,
is this going to slow not just the traffic or
slow the congestion, Is it also going to slow the economy?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I think that's really good question, and the short answer is,
we just don't know. It's been looked at around the world.
In the evidence I've seen is quite mixed and the
Seedlight London that has completely jammed up. Congestion charging is
as much about freeing space up for public transform and
walking cycling as it is freeing the congestion of the
(09:27):
roads on the network. It could have some local economic
compacts and would expect that to all get looked at
very carefully when the mayor or whoever's driving a steam
proposal puts it all together for the public to say,
thinks about it all.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, Look, obviously the mayor of ukins has been quite
keen on it. Obviously the Transport Minister is quite keen
on it. He's in New York looking at it as
we speak. But you have already said, you know, you
kind of do need the options in there, the public
transport options in there before you consider it. So why
are they considering this prematurely? Is it because there's no
(10:04):
other to the problems that we have?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, probably a two part answer. Congestion charging everywhere in
the world, apart from sing apportents even Debble and Singapore
is in the city center. So where would argue now,
particularly when the city rally comes online for Auckland next year,
options to the city center are pretty good, so you
could put a congestion charge there, but it's not going
(10:32):
to deal with a problem on the motorway network. So
it's really can we come up with something that will
work for Aucklander's maybe a low level charge that's enough
to get the discretionary trips that people don't need to
make a peak times. Often that we get people thinking
about whether they can make that trip later or even
not at all, but without having without harming the people
(10:53):
who don't have the kind of extensive public transport options
you do in a New York or London.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The problem is, you know, as an Orchandor, I can
tell you the congestion problem is not in the central city,
but it's getting into the city or going through the city.
As I've already said, the problems are at Northcote, the
problems are at Penrose, Green Lane and Newmarket. So you
know that that sort of debunks the theory.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, I think that's there, and that's the challenge of
the city that we have. You know, we don't have
the density and there we don't have the public transport
options of other people. The congestion problem is very, very
large for the Auckland councils recently estimated at two points
(11:39):
at the billion dollars a year. The key thing is
whether we can come up with a congestion charge that
will work, as you say, for where that big problem
is on the motorway network and it's pretty widespread, but
while still enabling people to you know who, particularly low
income people who tend not to have great public transport options,
(12:03):
to still meet their travel needs. That's what we're looking for.
Some careful thinking about that. It's got to work in
an Auckland context. That's certainly not something we can cut
and paste from Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
And based on the fact that you really that the
examples we have so far are in CBDs in central
city areas, you'd have to say that Wellington is a
sister as well, because the transport options we have had
there to try and transverse the city, including the flyover
and amazing ideas of tunnels in Wellington as samm Brown
came up with as well, Wellington could also be a
(12:35):
sister for this sort of thing. In fact, you could
almost argue that, based on the models that exist, it
is more likely or more possible there than in Auckland
one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Wellington's Warringtonians might not think this but if you compare
with the rest of Australia, it's got a good public
transport network, it's got a really strong CBD. Both Highway
one and Highway two feed into it. It would congestion
charging of work in Wellington. It's just that the problem
is massive than Auckland. So yeah, I'm true.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Well look mate, I've been trapped in some awesome Wellington
traffic jams. So don't you worry about that and the
problem you say about public transport options and Wellington, And
that does exist north of the city, but that does
not exist from Miramar, you know, and Setune into the
city and from the airport to the city there's very
little public transport option there other than one tiny one
lane tunnel.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, great, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Ye, he says. Okay, So Chris is over there right now,
by the way. If anybody wants to talk about this
and say their feelings, the number is open. I wait,
one hundred and eighty ten eighty is a numbered the phone?
Do you agree with congestion pricing? Will it affect the
productivity of your business or are you prepared to pay
the cost to get the roads flowing better so that
you can actually get through do your work better. You know,
(13:54):
if you're trade if you go in through town the
whole time and getting stuck behind some you know, family
group who are using the motorway to pick up kids
from school? Would you like those off? And you're way clear?
Only one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number
of the phone. How much do you reckon? The congestion
pricing would be? I mean, what's the cost? I keep
on thinking one dollar two dollars gold coin donation. What
(14:16):
do you think?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Oh, I don't think so, because of the lack of
really competitive options. I suspect it would be need to
be a lot higher than that. Some fairly and depth
where officials did in twenty twenty had it about three
dollars fifty at the busiest time in the peak network.
They wanted to graduate a charge so it would vary
by by the half hour. Actually, if you were to
(14:38):
grow sart up today would be close to five dollars.
I suspect that's the sort of sum that you're going
to need. It be needed to kind of get people
to kind of make behavioral change that they really don't
want to. We'll have to wait and see.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And how and how would the price be collected? I
mean we're used to tell Rhodes overseas and in Australia
you've got a card and you go through a gate
and there's more money going out of your account right now.
And I presume that'd have to be the same in
a New Zealand context, because you're not going to go
through a toll gate.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
An't no similar to the overseas one. So it would
use automatic number plate recognition cameras like we have on
bus lanes on our toll roads. Now people could regularly
users would would set up an account so that they
can sort of get get get bold and don't have
to do things all the time. But if it's regardless,
(15:31):
it would snap you underplate and identify who owns the
vehicle and where the charge goes.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And so the issuing of a system to collect the
tax would have set up costs in itself. Would that
be expensive, difficult, hard and take a long time to do?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I don't think potectically hard, because it's been done elsewhere,
and because the technology is all E is. Like I said,
it's US, it's used for tollroads. It would be a fear,
you know, it would be fairly complicated to set up
a big back off to do all a bullying and
click everything. But you know we could, we could, We
could learn a lot from the overseas overseas city. So,
(16:12):
I mean, I think the hardest thing getting this the
line is going to be enough public acceptance that it's needed,
rather than the technology. Per se.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
While I've got you on the line, State Highay too
and State Highway five at the bay plenty, you're about
to get point to point safety cameras. We know them
as speed cameras. Uh, there's already some around Metakana and
a few other places. Uh is this a fairer way
of running a speed camera rather than the static cameras
that we currently have?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
The static cameras are very fair now they've got signing
sign of course, every everybody gets worn. Arguably it is.
I mean, you can say, I guess a certain group
of motive us no doubt, slow down for the for
the camera and then speed up again. A point to
point will address that if you're if you're speeding along
the way.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Obviously absolutely mean your average speed exceeds the speed of it,
So you are obviously a speeder rather than someone who
in one moment of the time, due to circumstances, exceeds
the speed limit and then gets pinged. Yep, correct, very good, Martin.
So final questions, do you think it's certain that they're coming?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
It feels very likely. I know there are a lot
of people that are quite skeptical. We surveyed our members
last year. We got sixteen thousand responses, which is pretty
high for us. And there's not a lot of support
out there for it in the public. Legislation doesn't require
a ministery satisfyber level of public support, which is a
case of toll roads incidentally, So it feels like that
(17:46):
the government's fairly to determine the problem is very large
and it's getting worse. The solutions are alternative solutions, be
they additional road capacity in the built up area or
more and more public transport to address it, are just
not tenable. So and then you've got a mere as
you say, who's who's actively championing it and what's feel
(18:08):
in place as soon as possible. So it does feel
very very likely. But I just I haven't got a
read on where the public sit it and how much
you know, doing it over line how much So I'll
listen to what the public thinks.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, Hello, this is what we're here for. Are the
one hundred and eighty ten eighty years up the phone?
Could I hear from the public how you feel about this?
And if the Transport Minister comes back from New York
or gung ho about the idea and Wayne says, see,
I told you it was a good idea. If they
do decide to pull the plan, how soon before suddenly
it's a reality would it take to actually institute the system?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Well, interestingly, that so first steft is passing the legislation.
The government said that'll happen by the end of this year.
That seems very likely. But interesting the bill has a
clause in it which means that although the pass that
doesn't come into effect for another year, so that would
be sort of the end of twenty twenty slips at
the earliest. You can form your own theory as to
(19:03):
why that might be. And then and then after that,
assuming orkom as this kep off the week, it would
need to design a scheme that meets the requirements for
legislation and go for a fairly comprehensive public transport right
public consultation process. So well late twenty seven, early twenty
(19:23):
eight at the Unius.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Late twenty seven early twenty eight. That's fantastic. Of course,
you know they could always fast track it. That's what
this government likes. They could always fast track it. But
you never know. Martin, you have spoken very well and
very informatively about this issue for ten minutes and I
thank you very much for your time this Sunday and
enjoyed the rest of your weekend.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
You're most welcome. Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
So there we go by one hundred and eighty. Ten
eighty is a number the phone end of twenty six,
early twenty seven. There could be congestion pricing. It could
be brought in by the government. The good thing I
hear is that the bill at the moment to say
any money raised in the area should go back to
an area. But do you trust the government to do so?
And the other big question I have for anybody who
you know is in business, do you think this would
(20:08):
actually is yet another impost of the profitability of your business.
It's another cost of living increase. Okay, some of the
reaction we've had already. They had the congestion charge in
central London for years. It keeps all the plunkers away
in rush hour traffic. Apparently, according to the text, it
started at ten am and it stopped at ten am
(20:29):
and started back up again at three thirty pm, so
it's just for the rush hours. A Texas says, life
is changing, Andrew, and if we need to change our
habits and start acting like a modern society, then congestion
charges are a no brainer. Andrew A Texas says, the
problem is Auckland's massive size for what is a small city.
(20:50):
And remember that London fixed a lot of this traffic
by building rail into London. First station Euston eighteen thirty seven,
then Paddington the underground of course is amazing. Then all
the other stations came through Fenchurch eighteen forty one, Waterloo
eighteen forty eight, King's Cross eighteen fifty two. They were
all solving congestion before people were committed and addicted to cars,
(21:12):
and it brought people into London. And they're saying that's
what we need to do. We can have a congestion
pricing if we have a decent public transport system. Bit
to catch twenty two though, you have to say because
people go I don't like spending on public transport. Public
transport doesn't work. I want to drive my car and
we turn around and say, okay, that's going to cost you.
I don't want it to cost me. And then they
(21:34):
say it is going to cost you, even though we
don't have an option, an alternative option. People aren't on
the motorway for fun. They have to work and money
is very tight. This is fleecing people unnecessarily, and we'll
have consequences, the words of Mike Chris Bishop Is in
New York, We're going to be hearing this debate an
(21:55):
awful lot over the next six months. It is twenty
nine to four.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
postcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.