September 13, 2025 • 13 mins
Labour's education spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime has met with education minister Erica Stanford to discuss the Government's plan to scrap NCEA.
It comes after the spokesperson refused to meet with the minister while the reform was in its planning stages.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
dB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Labour's Education spokesperson Willow Jene Prime met with Education Minister
Erica Stamford on Friday to discuss the government's plan to
scrap NCEEA. It comes after Willow Jane refused or abstained,
I guess, to meet with the minister while the reform
was in its planning station stages. But now that they've met,
there's still some questions about what Labour's stance is or
(00:33):
will be on the reform. And this is of course
has more strike action as pending from union members who
are not going to be teaching or in any way
year nine to thirteen students on a rolling basis, day
by day and.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Willow jen Prime is with me now, Good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
How did the meeting go.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
The meeting was actually held last Monday. I think you
said in your introduction that it was on Friday, so
almost a week ago. It was a good opportunity for
us to be able to meet and to discuss some
of the things that I had been hearing from the sector,
not only throughout the consultation process, but also beforehand. It
was clear to me though that the Minister wasn't interested
(01:16):
in any of the feedback that I had to give
her about the process in itself, concerns that had been
shared with me regarding the way in which the proposals
had been developed without the input of the sector freshly,
and then second, in terms of the short consultation period,
the Minister was more interested in what was the substance
(01:39):
of the proposal. So we had an opportunity to discuss
concerns that I have heard from the sector around what
is in the proposal, but also some of the concerns
in terms of the lack of information for people to
be able to make informed contributions to that. So it
was quite a long meeting, I think almost two hours.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Were there any overlaps? We you sort of thought that
you agreed on a few.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Things, not that I can recall. Really, what I was
sharing with the Minister was concerns that I had heard
from the sector regarding the process. As I mentioned, the
Minister did not want to engage on those issues.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Aside from the process. What about the substance? Where did
you get to with what you offered them? Her reception
to it?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yes, So, as I mentioned to the minister. Her and
I have been copied into a lot of the similar submissions, letters,
survey results, and so the things I was raising with
the Minister is how is she going to respond to
the issues and concerns that have been raised from the sector.
In my view, they are legitimate concerns and issues. I
(02:51):
asked her if she would pause the process or give
the process more time so that she could meaningfully engage
with the education sector to address both concerns. It was
clear in the meeting that the Minister did not intend
to do that, and so I emphasized those concerns that
we are hearing. More and more educators have come out
(03:11):
raising concerns over the proposal. Over one hundred and twenty
principles have signed an open letter asking for a pause
of this process and for NCAA to be strengthened rather
than to be replaced. We also saw a survey from
the Secondary School Principles Association where majority are against the
proposed changes, and they are raising things like concerns that
(03:33):
the changes won't work for all young people, that certain
subjects are put at Riskin In the last five days
we have or not even five days. In the last
couple of days. We have had the list of subjects
released from the Minister with only five days of consultation
before process closes tomorrow. So we're hearing concerns from the
outdoor education class, for example, from agriculture, agribusiness, horticulture, from
(03:58):
art history. You know, this is the information that many
were asking for at the beginning of the process, and
it's come late her in the piece. We're also hearing
a lot of concerns about the return to exam heavy assessments.
Now the Minister was not able to rule that out
or to give me any more clarity and certainty around
(04:18):
those concerns. And the issue with that is that we
know that that will not work for students, she had
pointed out in her cabinet paper. And so those real
concerns that this proposed change will not work for all
of our students, and the way that NCAA currently does in.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
CIA does seem has been under discussion and review for years.
Some would argue that we've had more than enough consultation already.
I mean, what would you be waiting for, because you're
never going to get everyone on the same page, are we.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
That's right. So I actually started the conversation by pointing
out to the Minister that there was an NCAA change
process in place because everybody agrees that could be improved
and strengthened and that needs to happen now. That particular
process had gone through extensive consultation with the sector and
with business. It had been co designed with the education sector,
(05:09):
It had the support of employers and it also had
cross party support. That was done in twenty eighteen. Fast
forward to last year, the Minister actually put that process
on hold, quoting that it was fundamentally flawed and saying
that we needed curriculum before assessment. But what we have
is the Minister now announcing an entirely different assessment framework
(05:33):
and not actually having the curriculum. And so what I
said to the Minister is that we all agree that
it needs to be improved. There was a process that
everybody had been through and now we have this particular
proposal which came as a complete surprise to the sector
because they had not been consulted or involved in the
co design of it. So that goes back to the process, Sue,
(05:55):
which I mentioned earlier, which the Minister was not interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Sue, what's your attitude towards reform about in CEO, then.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
What do you feel about so?
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Like I see when the announcement was paid, we all
agree that CEA needs to be strengthened and improved. There
was it, like I said, the NCAA change program that
was in place, where that had been extensively consulted on
what needed to happen. What I believe that though that
moving forward, any changes, you know, needs to be worked
(06:26):
through carefully with the sector, particularly one that is proposing
to scrap NCAA entirely. This is a once in a
generation change and my message to the minister was that
you need to get this right, and you need to
get you need to work collaboratively with the sector if
this is going to work for all of our students,
(06:46):
and that's what should be of paramount considered.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I guess what does working with the sector look like?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Because it wasn't like Nicola, sorry Erica made this up
on the spot. She was consulting with experts and a
panel of people who were well qualified. I think to
have the important how do you want to do it?
Do you want to do it more democratically where we
ask every one and sort.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of poll it.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
No, so I mentioned the difference between the process that
was run in twenty and eighteen versus the process that
this minister has followed. So in twenty and eighteen, there
was a six month process, There was a lot of
consultation and workshops and worked with the sector to co
design what the responses to those changes, the proposed changes
(07:27):
were going to be, which had sector support, it had
business support, and it had cross party support. Comparing that
to the process this minister has run, which was to
consult with a handful two handfuls of handpicked principles who
could not speak to the wider sector about what was
being discussed, what options, Why.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Why can't they speak to the wider sector?
Speaker 4 (07:52):
As I understand it, they were not able to engage widely.
You know, whether that's because they had signed non disclosures
or because they're bound by confidentiality. So those are the
concerns I've heard from the sector is that this small
group of people were not able to engage with any
representative organization that they are part of. So really what
we have here is as a what the sector are
(08:15):
describing as a proposal that was designed in secret and
then released on them at the beginning of the consultation precess.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Isn't it a bit rich to complain about the process
when you were invited to be part of it and
didn't bother to turn up.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, what I would say is that it's very clear
to me when I was engaging with the sector before
the announcement that they were not involved in it, that
they were surprised that they were not involved in any
of the design of this proposal. I expressed those concerns.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
To them, and I'm just talking about it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
That I think the minister, the Minister should have been
engaging with the sector, and that's very clear to me.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, but no, I asked you about why do you
have any sort of regret? I guess the question why,
the broader question is do you have regrets about not
engaging in a process that you were invited to be
part of.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I stand by my prioritizing of engaging with the sector
because I think it's important that this whole conversation, this
whole debate is actually led by the experts and that
we have the education sector on board. So I prioritized
meeting with the sector to understand what the issues were
and what the potential solutions should be could.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
You have done both? I mean, could you have done both?
And caught up with her and said, Rick, I want
to take some time to go meet with the sector.
I mean what I'm asking is no regrets or any regrets.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Oh no, that is what I should have done, is
said to the minister, this is what I am doing,
and got in a sense of a time frame from
her because we didn't have that the announcement was made.
That I did write to the Minister ten days before
the announcement and she did not respond, and I had
a list of questions that I wanted to ask and
engage with. So I think though, in hindsight, I should
(09:57):
have acknowledged her email and said this is what I
would like to do before meeting with you, and then
let that meet take place. But that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
As we are where we are, When are we going
to know what later stances on the reform?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Well, I think you know, the consultation closes tomorrow. What
we have to remember is that just on Thursday the
Minister released the subject list, which is one of the
pieces of information that we have all been been asking for,
and you know, time to consider what that means. But
there's still information that is missing. But what I am
(10:33):
really clear about is I have been hearing more and
more educators who are concerned about this proposal and who
are raising serious and legitimate concerns that this Minister needs
to work through. What I make clear to the Minister
is that this process should not be rushed, that we
need to get this right. That my hope is that
she will sit down with the sector, hear those concerns,
(10:56):
and respond accordingly. And you know, if the Minister chooses
to push this ahead without doing that, I think that
puts at risk this particular change that she is proposing.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
So if she goes ahead with it, you basically won't
support it.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Well, given the large amount of opposition and concern that
there is to it. So we've had over one hundred
and fifty principles sign and open letter asking for a pause,
asking for a strengthening versus a replacement, asking for more
time and information. We have the Secondary School Principals Association,
there's survey results show that the majority do not support
(11:37):
this change. So my message to the Minister on Monday was,
in light of these concerns that we are hearing from
the education sector, are you prepared to pause or extend
this consultation process what it is going to do to
address both concerns and my concerns that just pushing ahead
for political expediency and a self imposed time frame puts
(12:00):
all of this out. How much more how much the minister?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
How much time do you think for consult then, because
when Labor was in charge, I think you did six
weeks or Chris hopkinstead.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It was six months of an extensive consultation process and
it was a co design on what were the proposed
changes that then we're agreed to by the sector, agreed
to by employers and had cross party agreement. So you know,
the minister chose her process for designing this proposal. She
chose the six week time frame, which she was told
(12:33):
right at the beginning that that is too short. So
now I think it's up to the Minister to figure
out how much time is needed and the appropriate process
to meaningfully engage with the sector to address the concerns
that have been raised, and I think she should keep
an open mind to strengthening rather than scrapping NCA.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So how much time would roughly, how much time do
you think it should be before we have you would
make an announcement, where would you be you would be
comfortable to proceed?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Well, what it will take as long as it takes.
And I think that it doesn't help that the process
started in the way that it did. So now you
know she has to go back to building a relationship
with the sector where it is genuine and meaningful engagement.
You know the concerns I've heard, is this a tick
box exercise? Is this actually a fader complete? Has the
(13:26):
decision actually already been made? And so again it comes
back to the minister now taking this time to engage
with the sector and to whip through properly the concerns
that have been raised with an open mind about the
outcome of that. And that really is up to her
(13:46):
in terms of how she's going to do that to
achieve that outcome.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Okay, look, I thank you very much for your time.
This aufferneron. That's will I Jen Prime, the Labor Party
Education Sparks person.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
dB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Labour's Education spokesperson Willow Jene Prime met with Education Minister
Erica Stamford on Friday to discuss the government's plan to
scrap NCEEA. It comes after Willow Jane refused or abstained,
I guess, to meet with the minister while the reform
was in its planning station stages. But now that they've met,
there's still some questions about what Labour's stance is or
(00:33):
will be on the reform. And this is of course
has more strike action as pending from union members who
are not going to be teaching or in any way
year nine to thirteen students on a rolling basis, day
by day and.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Willow jen Prime is with me now, Good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
How did the meeting go.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
The meeting was actually held last Monday. I think you
said in your introduction that it was on Friday, so
almost a week ago. It was a good opportunity for
us to be able to meet and to discuss some
of the things that I had been hearing from the sector,
not only throughout the consultation process, but also beforehand. It
was clear to me though that the Minister wasn't interested
(01:16):
in any of the feedback that I had to give
her about the process in itself, concerns that had been
shared with me regarding the way in which the proposals
had been developed without the input of the sector freshly,
and then second, in terms of the short consultation period,
the Minister was more interested in what was the substance
(01:39):
of the proposal. So we had an opportunity to discuss
concerns that I have heard from the sector around what
is in the proposal, but also some of the concerns
in terms of the lack of information for people to
be able to make informed contributions to that. So it
was quite a long meeting, I think almost two hours.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Were there any overlaps? We you sort of thought that
you agreed on a few.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Things, not that I can recall. Really, what I was
sharing with the Minister was concerns that I had heard
from the sector regarding the process. As I mentioned, the
Minister did not want to engage on those issues.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Aside from the process. What about the substance? Where did
you get to with what you offered them? Her reception
to it?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yes, So, as I mentioned to the minister. Her and
I have been copied into a lot of the similar submissions, letters,
survey results, and so the things I was raising with
the Minister is how is she going to respond to
the issues and concerns that have been raised from the sector.
In my view, they are legitimate concerns and issues. I
(02:51):
asked her if she would pause the process or give
the process more time so that she could meaningfully engage
with the education sector to address both concerns. It was
clear in the meeting that the Minister did not intend
to do that, and so I emphasized those concerns that
we are hearing. More and more educators have come out
(03:11):
raising concerns over the proposal. Over one hundred and twenty
principles have signed an open letter asking for a pause
of this process and for NCAA to be strengthened rather
than to be replaced. We also saw a survey from
the Secondary School Principles Association where majority are against the
proposed changes, and they are raising things like concerns that
(03:33):
the changes won't work for all young people, that certain
subjects are put at Riskin In the last five days
we have or not even five days. In the last
couple of days. We have had the list of subjects
released from the Minister with only five days of consultation
before process closes tomorrow. So we're hearing concerns from the
outdoor education class, for example, from agriculture, agribusiness, horticulture, from
(03:58):
art history. You know, this is the information that many
were asking for at the beginning of the process, and
it's come late her in the piece. We're also hearing
a lot of concerns about the return to exam heavy assessments.
Now the Minister was not able to rule that out
or to give me any more clarity and certainty around
(04:18):
those concerns. And the issue with that is that we
know that that will not work for students, she had
pointed out in her cabinet paper. And so those real
concerns that this proposed change will not work for all
of our students, and the way that NCAA currently does in.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
CIA does seem has been under discussion and review for years.
Some would argue that we've had more than enough consultation already.
I mean, what would you be waiting for, because you're
never going to get everyone on the same page, are we.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
That's right. So I actually started the conversation by pointing
out to the Minister that there was an NCAA change
process in place because everybody agrees that could be improved
and strengthened and that needs to happen now. That particular
process had gone through extensive consultation with the sector and
with business. It had been co designed with the education sector,
(05:09):
It had the support of employers and it also had
cross party support. That was done in twenty eighteen. Fast
forward to last year, the Minister actually put that process
on hold, quoting that it was fundamentally flawed and saying
that we needed curriculum before assessment. But what we have
is the Minister now announcing an entirely different assessment framework
(05:33):
and not actually having the curriculum. And so what I
said to the Minister is that we all agree that
it needs to be improved. There was a process that
everybody had been through and now we have this particular
proposal which came as a complete surprise to the sector
because they had not been consulted or involved in the
co design of it. So that goes back to the process, Sue,
(05:55):
which I mentioned earlier, which the Minister was not interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Sue, what's your attitude towards reform about in CEO, then.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
What do you feel about so?
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Like I see when the announcement was paid, we all
agree that CEA needs to be strengthened and improved. There
was it, like I said, the NCAA change program that
was in place, where that had been extensively consulted on
what needed to happen. What I believe that though that
moving forward, any changes, you know, needs to be worked
(06:26):
through carefully with the sector, particularly one that is proposing
to scrap NCAA entirely. This is a once in a
generation change and my message to the minister was that
you need to get this right, and you need to
get you need to work collaboratively with the sector if
this is going to work for all of our students,
(06:46):
and that's what should be of paramount considered.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I guess what does working with the sector look like?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Because it wasn't like Nicola, sorry Erica made this up
on the spot. She was consulting with experts and a
panel of people who were well qualified. I think to
have the important how do you want to do it?
Do you want to do it more democratically where we
ask every one and sort.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of poll it.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
No, so I mentioned the difference between the process that
was run in twenty and eighteen versus the process that
this minister has followed. So in twenty and eighteen, there
was a six month process, There was a lot of
consultation and workshops and worked with the sector to co
design what the responses to those changes, the proposed changes
(07:27):
were going to be, which had sector support, it had
business support, and it had cross party support. Comparing that
to the process this minister has run, which was to
consult with a handful two handfuls of handpicked principles who
could not speak to the wider sector about what was
being discussed, what options, Why.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Why can't they speak to the wider sector?
Speaker 4 (07:52):
As I understand it, they were not able to engage widely.
You know, whether that's because they had signed non disclosures
or because they're bound by confidentiality. So those are the
concerns I've heard from the sector is that this small
group of people were not able to engage with any
representative organization that they are part of. So really what
we have here is as a what the sector are
(08:15):
describing as a proposal that was designed in secret and
then released on them at the beginning of the consultation precess.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Isn't it a bit rich to complain about the process
when you were invited to be part of it and
didn't bother to turn up.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, what I would say is that it's very clear
to me when I was engaging with the sector before
the announcement that they were not involved in it, that
they were surprised that they were not involved in any
of the design of this proposal. I expressed those concerns.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
To them, and I'm just talking about it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
That I think the minister, the Minister should have been
engaging with the sector, and that's very clear to me.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, but no, I asked you about why do you
have any sort of regret? I guess the question why,
the broader question is do you have regrets about not
engaging in a process that you were invited to be
part of.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I stand by my prioritizing of engaging with the sector
because I think it's important that this whole conversation, this
whole debate is actually led by the experts and that
we have the education sector on board. So I prioritized
meeting with the sector to understand what the issues were
and what the potential solutions should be could.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
You have done both? I mean, could you have done both?
And caught up with her and said, Rick, I want
to take some time to go meet with the sector.
I mean what I'm asking is no regrets or any regrets.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Oh no, that is what I should have done, is
said to the minister, this is what I am doing,
and got in a sense of a time frame from
her because we didn't have that the announcement was made.
That I did write to the Minister ten days before
the announcement and she did not respond, and I had
a list of questions that I wanted to ask and
engage with. So I think though, in hindsight, I should
(09:57):
have acknowledged her email and said this is what I
would like to do before meeting with you, and then
let that meet take place. But that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
As we are where we are, When are we going
to know what later stances on the reform?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Well, I think you know, the consultation closes tomorrow. What
we have to remember is that just on Thursday the
Minister released the subject list, which is one of the
pieces of information that we have all been been asking for,
and you know, time to consider what that means. But
there's still information that is missing. But what I am
(10:33):
really clear about is I have been hearing more and
more educators who are concerned about this proposal and who
are raising serious and legitimate concerns that this Minister needs
to work through. What I make clear to the Minister
is that this process should not be rushed, that we
need to get this right. That my hope is that
she will sit down with the sector, hear those concerns,
(10:56):
and respond accordingly. And you know, if the Minister chooses
to push this ahead without doing that, I think that
puts at risk this particular change that she is proposing.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
So if she goes ahead with it, you basically won't
support it.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Well, given the large amount of opposition and concern that
there is to it. So we've had over one hundred
and fifty principles sign and open letter asking for a pause,
asking for a strengthening versus a replacement, asking for more
time and information. We have the Secondary School Principals Association,
there's survey results show that the majority do not support
(11:37):
this change. So my message to the Minister on Monday was,
in light of these concerns that we are hearing from
the education sector, are you prepared to pause or extend
this consultation process what it is going to do to
address both concerns and my concerns that just pushing ahead
for political expediency and a self imposed time frame puts
(12:00):
all of this out. How much more how much the minister?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
How much time do you think for consult then, because
when Labor was in charge, I think you did six
weeks or Chris hopkinstead.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It was six months of an extensive consultation process and
it was a co design on what were the proposed
changes that then we're agreed to by the sector, agreed
to by employers and had cross party agreement. So you know,
the minister chose her process for designing this proposal. She
chose the six week time frame, which she was told
(12:33):
right at the beginning that that is too short. So
now I think it's up to the Minister to figure
out how much time is needed and the appropriate process
to meaningfully engage with the sector to address the concerns
that have been raised, and I think she should keep
an open mind to strengthening rather than scrapping NCA.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So how much time would roughly, how much time do
you think it should be before we have you would
make an announcement, where would you be you would be
comfortable to proceed?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Well, what it will take as long as it takes.
And I think that it doesn't help that the process
started in the way that it did. So now you
know she has to go back to building a relationship
with the sector where it is genuine and meaningful engagement.
You know the concerns I've heard, is this a tick
box exercise? Is this actually a fader complete? Has the
(13:26):
decision actually already been made? And so again it comes
back to the minister now taking this time to engage
with the sector and to whip through properly the concerns
that have been raised with an open mind about the
outcome of that. And that really is up to her
(13:46):
in terms of how she's going to do that to
achieve that outcome.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Okay, look, I thank you very much for your time.
This aufferneron. That's will I Jen Prime, the Labor Party
Education Sparks person.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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