December 6, 2025 • 11 mins
Former police commissioner Andrew Coster claims he had briefed Chris Hipkins on Jevon McSkimming's alleged misconduct in 2022, and briefed Mark Mitchell in 2024.
Coster stepped down as Chief Executive of the Social Investment Agency this week, after an IPCA report showed failures in how the police dealt with allegations against McSkimming.
Both Hipkins and Mitchell have denied Andrew Coster's claims, and both have released statements saying they would have taken action had they known.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
I'd be so yes. Former police Commissioner Andrew cost Really
got interview with Jack Tame this morning, by the way,
on Q and A. He claims he had briefed Chris
Hipkins on Jevin and mc skimmings alleged misconduct in twenty
twenty two, He briefed him in twenty twenty two, and
(00:27):
he claims it also briefed Mark Mitchell in twenty twenty four.
As we know you will have caught up with a.
Costas stood down as a chief executive of the Social
Investment Agency this week after that IPCA report showed failures
and how police dealt with allegations against mc skimming. Both
Hipkins and Mitchell have denied Andrew Coster's claims. One would
(00:51):
say vehemently actually in both the release statements, saying they
would have taken action had they known so. Lawyer and
former police officer Matthew Hay joins me. Now, Matthew, good afternoon.
I can't keep up with all this. How about you?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Extraordinary? It's surprising to see this has been drawn out
in the way it is. I wouldn't have thought that
would be in the interest of any party. But with
now mister Costa coming out and differing with the former
Minister of Police, a former Prime minister and current Minister
of Police, it's extraordinary that they term it has a
(01:28):
differenceection in recollections, but what they're saying does interligne and
it's extraordinary when we're talking about these senior people.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Just on that interview. What's your take on Costa's motivation
and doing the interview. I think he might have presented
it as sort of setting the record straight. I sort
of saw when he talked about that was on me.
It's almost I thought his language was a little bit begrudging.
Do you think he was trying to sort of minimize
(01:59):
the impact? Do you think he was trying to set
the record. What's your take on his appearance today.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is that he probably feels unfairly treated by some of
the public commentary. I think he has no choicte to it,
but to accept a lot of the criticism which is
valid against him. I think there has been some commentary
that perhaps has gone a little far, particularly speculation as
to his intent. The OTSA report is very clear that
he didn't necessarily act with malicious intent, But I don't
(02:28):
think that's the point. To the point is we have
the top cop, the Commissioner of Police, making exercising some
very poor judgment, and even with these differing recollections now
between him and the other politicians. Police officers are taught
to keep decision trails, to keep grittin records of what
they do, and obviously mister Costa was a very senior
(02:48):
police officer. He should have been keeping at least notes
that fundamental pleasing and I don't know why he didn't.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So what's your reckon Is it likely that Higgins and
Mitchell were briefed in twenty twenty two and twenty four respectively.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I don't know for sure. I think the IPSA
report in Coster acknowledges this did prefer other people's statements
and information above his own. And again it's an extraordinary
thing for a basic commissioner, our former police commissioner, not
to be believed by the IPCA, and it's said that's
unfortunately we're at this point where it does I think
(03:25):
effect the trust and confidence that we can have in
the police. I think that they'll need to work out
to rebuild that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
What is this what should the standard practice have been.
If there was going to be a briefing, it should
have been formal and recorded. Surely, wouldn't it You wouldn't
just have ah, by the way, Hey, a bit of
trouble with my potential deputy commissioner here.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Absolutely, And I think one point is we don't know
the detailed content of this alleged briefing. If it was
simply that a senior deputy commissioner had previously had an
affair and the parties were now I'm happy with each other,
I can maybe understand why that would be more informal.
But I think the bigger point here is the missuit
(04:05):
use of power, in my opinion, between McK skimming and
miss Z and costs poor judgment, and how he managed
that situation, including these alleged disclosures to politicians that the
ipcsas did not happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is there a chance, I mean, we're not going to
find out the truth, really, are we? Now we're into
a sort of he said, he said, sort of thing
in terms of who was briefed on. Why aren't we?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah? And I think you're right to say that these
briefings should have been more formal, that doesn't mean they
can't do it in the back of the car as
the traveling These are busy people, but just just keep
basic talking points about what was discussed. It's not hard.
Pleased it all the time. I don't know why the
Commissioner didn't.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'm also a little confused as to you know, Hipkins
saying he would have acted and what you know, we're
not going to have a crack at the at the
minister's But what if he had briefed them. There's an
interesting question around sort of ministerial removal from decision making
as well. What could have or should have ministers done
(05:08):
if cost is right and saying he'd brief them because
they can't get involved in operational stuff either, so where
does that go.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's quite right. They have to be able to roly
on the Commissioner to manage those oper inocial operational day
to day matters. I think that had they been brief
that would have maybe informed their decision making around the
appointment process for formal Deputy Commissioner mix Skilling. I think
that's probably where the Minister's had greatest input.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Do you think I mean we Evan knew we've had
a changing of the guard with our chambers as the
new police commissioner. But you've served as a police officer
and or a lawyer. Do you think that this that
it reflects a problem about police culture. And I don't
mean the behavior that we saw from MC skimming. I
mean the sort of backing your mates up. You know,
(05:57):
I trust this guy, you know he's and this just
this default position that maybe we believe our colleagues, and
that's problem for complainants.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I think it doesn't reflect a broad cultural problem in
the New Zealand place. I think what it reflects is
that the importance of independent decision making when it comes
to prosecution decisions and other enforcement matters. You're right that
we have a peace service that is collgial. Is they
(06:33):
want to support each other and that emphasizes the importance
of having the independent decision making, which didn't happen here.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So I guess for the average key, we there's the
question about whether there's a tendency for senior ranks to
protect their own But how can we be confident that
that is not going to be the case. We have
there been changes in processes, or has been a lot
of rhetorics so far. What do we know about the
(07:01):
hopefully not seeing something like this again.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hopeful, I'm optimistic. I think the IPCA report itself went
a long way to shining some sunlight on some of
these issues. And as we know, quite a few police
officers now have lost their jobs. I would like to
think that others would look to that and know that
if they do not exercise sound judgment, that would be
(07:26):
the outcome. Maybe there could be some value in some
form of public inquiry. The ICPA report was quite comprehensive,
but what we didn't get to see was the investigation process,
and we didn't get to hear evidence from the people
involved in that inquiry directly. So maybe there could be
some public limits of public inquiry which could be helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Were you it's so easy to jump on the bandwagon
of condemnation, but in a way, the idea that someone
tends to believe a colleague is not surprising in any
walker life. Were you surprised in a way at what
cost has revealed?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I am surprised. I'm surprised that someone as bright and
experienced as him didn't exercise better decision making. And I
think you're right. My opinion is that his motive was
to do what he thought was the right thing. Clearly
he didn't believe the allegations against mister mc skimming. But
that's the problem. He's the commission that he should be
(08:30):
staying out of that until the investigation is completed. He didn't.
He hurried it along that there were wider issues of
the police as well around Mick Skimming having input into
where the diversion was offered to miss the as it
relates to the allegations against him, and when she refused
to retract what mciming is to be forced allegations, he
refused to say yes to diversion and that would have
(08:50):
resulted in the charges against being dropped. So really really
poor decision making. And I'm sure everyone thought they were
doing the right thing. They weren't. What I would say,
and what I think should give us hope, is that
there were place who did do the right thing. There
the subject of really positive com in the IPCA report.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It doesn't really matter what my opinion is, but my
guess would be that there is a credibility problem for
cost Or and what he's alleging, and the reason being
for that if one thing has come out over the
years about what sort of police officer Coster was. He
was a guy who is very much about process and
making sure things are recorded and everything's done the right way.
(09:28):
To me, it just doesn't stack that he had an
informal briefing on something so serious.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think that's fair, and I think the fact we've
got politicians from across the political spectrum as well as
independent parties like Deputy Commissioner Heather Baggots or the Public
Service Commission all disagree with his views about when people
were briefed. I think there's one common element here and
it's people disagree with what a cost are saying.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So where do you think we're at with the changing
of the guard and confidence that police further down the
scale might be confident in speaking up.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I think they should be confidence. As I said, they
did speak up in this case and they were rightly
praised by the IPCA. I think that the whole skimming
saga and then this additional cost issue has taken a
toll on frontline place who are there to support in
serve our community. And I'm sure there it's frustrated and
(10:23):
angered at this incompetence amongst the senior ranks and Wellington
because they bear the brunch of that day to day
and they'll be frustrated about that and they'll be looking
for change in their senior leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I sort of hate questions asking about whether the public
can be confident this won't happen again. But are you
increasingly confident that we're less We have a much lower
chance of seeing something like this happen again.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
We do have a lower chance. I think there's always
that risk, and that's inherent in any policing. I think
if it happens again, then there has to be real
structural changes, things like removing the prosecutorial function from police entirely.
It's semi independent, but it's still within the place, so
there are things that could be done that would reduce
that risk further. I would like to think that people
(11:08):
have looked at this. Police have looked at this, and
they will hold themselves are the standard that everyone expects
of them.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But so far, I guess are you happy with what
you've heard from the current police commissioner about where they
wanted the police want to go with all of these issues?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah? I think the current police commissioner has do the
right things. He's not obviously condoned any of what's happened.
He's been quite scathing in his criticism of his predecisors,
so yes, I would hope that he's taking some very
strong action internally to reduce that risk further.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Excellent, Matthew. I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Thank you for more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Listen live to News Talks it'd be weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
I'd be so yes. Former police Commissioner Andrew cost Really
got interview with Jack Tame this morning, by the way,
on Q and A. He claims he had briefed Chris
Hipkins on Jevin and mc skimmings alleged misconduct in twenty
twenty two, He briefed him in twenty twenty two, and
(00:27):
he claims it also briefed Mark Mitchell in twenty twenty four.
As we know you will have caught up with a.
Costas stood down as a chief executive of the Social
Investment Agency this week after that IPCA report showed failures
and how police dealt with allegations against mc skimming. Both
Hipkins and Mitchell have denied Andrew Coster's claims. One would
(00:51):
say vehemently actually in both the release statements, saying they
would have taken action had they known so. Lawyer and
former police officer Matthew Hay joins me. Now, Matthew, good afternoon.
I can't keep up with all this. How about you?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Extraordinary? It's surprising to see this has been drawn out
in the way it is. I wouldn't have thought that
would be in the interest of any party. But with
now mister Costa coming out and differing with the former
Minister of Police, a former Prime minister and current Minister
of Police, it's extraordinary that they term it has a
(01:28):
differenceection in recollections, but what they're saying does interligne and
it's extraordinary when we're talking about these senior people.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Just on that interview. What's your take on Costa's motivation
and doing the interview. I think he might have presented
it as sort of setting the record straight. I sort
of saw when he talked about that was on me.
It's almost I thought his language was a little bit begrudging.
Do you think he was trying to sort of minimize
(01:59):
the impact? Do you think he was trying to set
the record. What's your take on his appearance today.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is that he probably feels unfairly treated by some of
the public commentary. I think he has no choicte to it,
but to accept a lot of the criticism which is
valid against him. I think there has been some commentary
that perhaps has gone a little far, particularly speculation as
to his intent. The OTSA report is very clear that
he didn't necessarily act with malicious intent, But I don't
(02:28):
think that's the point. To the point is we have
the top cop, the Commissioner of Police, making exercising some
very poor judgment, and even with these differing recollections now
between him and the other politicians. Police officers are taught
to keep decision trails, to keep grittin records of what
they do, and obviously mister Costa was a very senior
(02:48):
police officer. He should have been keeping at least notes
that fundamental pleasing and I don't know why he didn't.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So what's your reckon Is it likely that Higgins and
Mitchell were briefed in twenty twenty two and twenty four respectively.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I don't know for sure. I think the IPSA
report in Coster acknowledges this did prefer other people's statements
and information above his own. And again it's an extraordinary
thing for a basic commissioner, our former police commissioner, not
to be believed by the IPCA, and it's said that's
unfortunately we're at this point where it does I think
(03:25):
effect the trust and confidence that we can have in
the police. I think that they'll need to work out
to rebuild that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
What is this what should the standard practice have been.
If there was going to be a briefing, it should
have been formal and recorded. Surely, wouldn't it You wouldn't
just have ah, by the way, Hey, a bit of
trouble with my potential deputy commissioner here.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Absolutely, And I think one point is we don't know
the detailed content of this alleged briefing. If it was
simply that a senior deputy commissioner had previously had an
affair and the parties were now I'm happy with each other,
I can maybe understand why that would be more informal.
But I think the bigger point here is the missuit
(04:05):
use of power, in my opinion, between McK skimming and
miss Z and costs poor judgment, and how he managed
that situation, including these alleged disclosures to politicians that the
ipcsas did not happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is there a chance, I mean, we're not going to
find out the truth, really, are we? Now we're into
a sort of he said, he said, sort of thing
in terms of who was briefed on. Why aren't we?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah? And I think you're right to say that these
briefings should have been more formal, that doesn't mean they
can't do it in the back of the car as
the traveling These are busy people, but just just keep
basic talking points about what was discussed. It's not hard.
Pleased it all the time. I don't know why the
Commissioner didn't.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'm also a little confused as to you know, Hipkins
saying he would have acted and what you know, we're
not going to have a crack at the at the
minister's But what if he had briefed them. There's an
interesting question around sort of ministerial removal from decision making
as well. What could have or should have ministers done
(05:08):
if cost is right and saying he'd brief them because
they can't get involved in operational stuff either, so where
does that go.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's quite right. They have to be able to roly
on the Commissioner to manage those oper inocial operational day
to day matters. I think that had they been brief
that would have maybe informed their decision making around the
appointment process for formal Deputy Commissioner mix Skilling. I think
that's probably where the Minister's had greatest input.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Do you think I mean we Evan knew we've had
a changing of the guard with our chambers as the
new police commissioner. But you've served as a police officer
and or a lawyer. Do you think that this that
it reflects a problem about police culture. And I don't
mean the behavior that we saw from MC skimming. I
mean the sort of backing your mates up. You know,
(05:57):
I trust this guy, you know he's and this just
this default position that maybe we believe our colleagues, and
that's problem for complainants.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I think it doesn't reflect a broad cultural problem in
the New Zealand place. I think what it reflects is
that the importance of independent decision making when it comes
to prosecution decisions and other enforcement matters. You're right that
we have a peace service that is collgial. Is they
(06:33):
want to support each other and that emphasizes the importance
of having the independent decision making, which didn't happen here.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So I guess for the average key, we there's the
question about whether there's a tendency for senior ranks to
protect their own But how can we be confident that
that is not going to be the case. We have
there been changes in processes, or has been a lot
of rhetorics so far. What do we know about the
(07:01):
hopefully not seeing something like this again.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hopeful, I'm optimistic. I think the IPCA report itself went
a long way to shining some sunlight on some of
these issues. And as we know, quite a few police
officers now have lost their jobs. I would like to
think that others would look to that and know that
if they do not exercise sound judgment, that would be
(07:26):
the outcome. Maybe there could be some value in some
form of public inquiry. The ICPA report was quite comprehensive,
but what we didn't get to see was the investigation process,
and we didn't get to hear evidence from the people
involved in that inquiry directly. So maybe there could be
some public limits of public inquiry which could be helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Were you it's so easy to jump on the bandwagon
of condemnation, but in a way, the idea that someone
tends to believe a colleague is not surprising in any
walker life. Were you surprised in a way at what
cost has revealed?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I am surprised. I'm surprised that someone as bright and
experienced as him didn't exercise better decision making. And I
think you're right. My opinion is that his motive was
to do what he thought was the right thing. Clearly
he didn't believe the allegations against mister mc skimming. But
that's the problem. He's the commission that he should be
(08:30):
staying out of that until the investigation is completed. He didn't.
He hurried it along that there were wider issues of
the police as well around Mick Skimming having input into
where the diversion was offered to miss the as it
relates to the allegations against him, and when she refused
to retract what mciming is to be forced allegations, he
refused to say yes to diversion and that would have
(08:50):
resulted in the charges against being dropped. So really really
poor decision making. And I'm sure everyone thought they were
doing the right thing. They weren't. What I would say,
and what I think should give us hope, is that
there were place who did do the right thing. There
the subject of really positive com in the IPCA report.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It doesn't really matter what my opinion is, but my
guess would be that there is a credibility problem for
cost Or and what he's alleging, and the reason being
for that if one thing has come out over the
years about what sort of police officer Coster was. He
was a guy who is very much about process and
making sure things are recorded and everything's done the right way.
(09:28):
To me, it just doesn't stack that he had an
informal briefing on something so serious.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think that's fair, and I think the fact we've
got politicians from across the political spectrum as well as
independent parties like Deputy Commissioner Heather Baggots or the Public
Service Commission all disagree with his views about when people
were briefed. I think there's one common element here and
it's people disagree with what a cost are saying.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So where do you think we're at with the changing
of the guard and confidence that police further down the
scale might be confident in speaking up.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I think they should be confidence. As I said, they
did speak up in this case and they were rightly
praised by the IPCA. I think that the whole skimming
saga and then this additional cost issue has taken a
toll on frontline place who are there to support in
serve our community. And I'm sure there it's frustrated and
(10:23):
angered at this incompetence amongst the senior ranks and Wellington
because they bear the brunch of that day to day
and they'll be frustrated about that and they'll be looking
for change in their senior leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I sort of hate questions asking about whether the public
can be confident this won't happen again. But are you
increasingly confident that we're less We have a much lower
chance of seeing something like this happen again.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
We do have a lower chance. I think there's always
that risk, and that's inherent in any policing. I think
if it happens again, then there has to be real
structural changes, things like removing the prosecutorial function from police entirely.
It's semi independent, but it's still within the place, so
there are things that could be done that would reduce
that risk further. I would like to think that people
(11:08):
have looked at this. Police have looked at this, and
they will hold themselves are the standard that everyone expects
of them.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But so far, I guess are you happy with what
you've heard from the current police commissioner about where they
wanted the police want to go with all of these issues?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah? I think the current police commissioner has do the
right things. He's not obviously condoned any of what's happened.
He's been quite scathing in his criticism of his predecisors,
so yes, I would hope that he's taking some very
strong action internally to reduce that risk further.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Excellent, Matthew. I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Thank you for more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Listen live to News Talks it'd be weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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