December 13, 2025 • 11 mins
Nato chief Mark Rutte warns Western allies to prepare for war with Russia.
He said that within the next five years, Nato countries will need to be prepared for a scale of war that hasn't been seen since our grandparents or great-grandparents.
Donald Trump is due to meet with Volodymyr Zelenskyy shortly regarding a peace deal.
And the U.S. is keeping very busy as they've also seized an oil tanker off the coast of Venezuela this week.
The tanker went off course two days after its departure, listed to head for a Cuban port but rather off-loading part of its load to another ship before heading toward Asia.
It was seized shortly after this.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Look, there's lots happening in the world of international politics
this week. First, NATO chief Mark Ritter Rutter, I'm not
sure exactly how to pronounce that warned Western allies to
prepare for war with Russia. He said that basically, within
the next five years, NATO countries will need to be
prepared for a scale of war that hasn't been seen
since our grandparents or great grandparents. And Donald Trump's due
(00:32):
to meet Zelenski shortly regarding a peace deal, and the
US has been keeping busy. Also, they seize that all
TAMCA off the coast of Venezuela this week, and the
tanker wend off course two days after its departure listed
to head for a Cuban port, rather than loading part
of its load to another ship before heading to Asia. Anyway,
it was seized shortly after this. Well, lots to get
on with US correspondent Jonathan Kearsley is with me now, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Afternoon, Good afternoon to you and your listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, thanks for joining us. Say where are we at?
I mean it goes on and on, doesn't it? With
the peace talks of Russia.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, it does. I mean you get a sense the
United States trying to ramp up a move to try
and get some sort of peace still at least signed
by years, and that still seems very problematic and very
difficult given how far apart both Ukraine and Russia are
on this proposal. You've got Steve Wikoff, the US envoy
to this region, flying into Berlin to Germany to meet
(01:23):
with the Ukrainian prison of a lot of missielands. He
and European leaders. Essentially they want to see what the
latest counter offer is to try and move negotiations forward.
But vladimim Putin has remained very steadfast in his resolve,
unsurprisingly because realistically, in the last few years since this
war began, he hasn't moved in Iota. He's now threatening
(01:44):
to take eastern Ukraine unless his demands are met and
take it entirely. This has been a costly war of lives.
It's been a costly war financially for Russia, but also
for many Western galuting the United States, including for Europe,
including some in the Southern Hemisphere too. Australia has been
providing assistance as well, So you have to look at
this from a broad spectrum is to exactly how they're
(02:05):
going to get to a position where the two sides
can agree right now by year's end. Well, time is ticking,
and it's ticking fast. We've been in these negotiations for months.
Donald Trump thought he could have this wrapped up fairly
quickly since becoming US president. That hasn't been the case.
And that's because Vladimir Putin has stuck his guns, if
you like. He has remained in essentially the same position
(02:28):
he has all along, in fact, in some instance even
pushing a harder line than what he initially had. So look,
you're going to see these conversations take place over the
course of the next twenty four forty eight hours or
so between Steve Witkoff and the European leaders and Ukraine,
and then whatever counteroffer is put forward is then going
to go back to the Russians and there will be
this sort of play by play, if you like, of
(02:51):
a diplomatic tennis match between the two countries. But right now,
it's very difficult to see how they can wrap this
up quickly by years. And they might have an idea
to do that, and they might want to do that,
but getting to that finish line him is That's the
real difficult point right now. While Ukraine says that it
is committed to peace and it is seeing positive signs
(03:12):
and moving forward, there's not much positivity. There's not much
movement on the key issues that Vladimir Putin has put forward,
and now he's making yet more threats about taking the
entire eastern side of the country unless he gets what
he wants.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Is that because he just suspects that Trump will just
get annoyed with as more likely to get annoyed with
Zelensky and put pressure on him rather than with Putin,
there'll be not really any genuine pushback from the States.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Putin is a strong arm and he's patient. He waited
a long time before making the move into Ukraine. He
could have done this at some point years ago. He
took some parts of he took Crimea essentially some years ago,
and then decided to make this move. Played He has
played a very long waiting game. Of course, we know
that his grand vision for Russia is to return it
(03:59):
to the old Soviet days and acquire the territory that
it essentially had, and right back in the beginning of this,
Remember too that Vladimir Putin said, oh, yes, we will
recognize Ukraine. But essentially that was recognized it from what
Russia saw as Ukraine, which is just a couple of
kilometers or so exactly of Ukraine itself, not of the
entire country. So it doesn't recognize Ukraine as a ballad
(04:21):
country and thinks it's Soviet territory. And Vladimir Putin is very,
very strong and he's very patient. So what he's now
doing in playing the game that he's playing is testing
the resolve of European leaders. He's testing the resolve primarily though,
of the US President Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, so who's what's Salinski? Who's he likely to try
and please? Zolensky yesterday aim to please the Americans and
then hope that they can please Putin. I mean, who
is Zelensky sort of trying to where's he trying to
thread the needle?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Primarily he's trying to send the needle west, and that
is on a road through Europe. He knows that European
leaders have his back. He knows that European leaders are
more concerned about the possibility of a long term downfall
of Ukraine, which is why you're seeing that warning from
Mark Rutta that the European leaders need to be prepared
(05:16):
for some sort of conflict with Russia. That's why you're
seeing the European leaders need to arm up in defense pending.
But they're also doing that because of pressure from the
United States. And that's also where Volodi Miszelenski is looking.
Go back to February, they had the Oval Office bust
up between him and Donald Trump, and he's played a
very very different game since, not exactly trying to appease him,
(05:36):
but know that they knowing that they are coming at
this from different viewpoints and they both essentially want the
same sort of outcome. But he's having to negotiate not
only dealing with the Europeans, and he would see that
as fairly straightforward. But his primary objective is to keep
the United States support on sides, to keep the United
(05:58):
States at the table, and he's lent on European leaders,
including Mark Ruder, in order to do that. If they
keep that aligned, if they keep that sense of unity together,
then they can deal with the negotiations with Russia. If
the United States breaks away and goes the other way,
well that becomes a significant problem for Ukraine, for Europe,
(06:18):
and realistically it becomes a problem for the Western world too.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So when Mark Russa says we need to prepare for
war within five years with Russia, who's his main audience
for that comment. Does it European leaders or is it Trump?
Is it the America.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
There's an element of all of the above. Essentially, he
is trying to push on and he has performed very
well alongside Donald Trump. He seems to have a very
good working relationship with him, but an understanding two of
how he operates. The one thing the American President wants
to see from Europe, and remember, just a matter of
days ago he called them decaying nations that were essentially
(06:59):
withering away. He wants them to aggressively wrap up defense spending.
He's essentially saying to NATO, to European leaders that you
guys need to increase more of what you spend on defense.
You guys need to spend more because he views it
that America is constantly having to come to the party
to help out Europe in terms of military support. When
he's saying, look, America is going to be willing to
(07:20):
do that under my administration, but we will be willing
to do that if you bring more cash to the table,
if you bring more of your assets, if you increase
your own resources. And Mark Rotter very well understands that point.
So he's trying to talk to European leaders to essentially say, hey, guys, look,
you've really got to increase this and increase this fast.
You need to be ready. But at the same time
(07:41):
he's sending somewhat of a message veiled message to the
United States too. But not only is this about Hey, look,
I'm telling all of these European nations, yes, they need
to increase defense spending, but we are very, very very
wary of Russia and we need you to support us
in this. So there's kind of a two pronged message
that he's sending in that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, because I mean the question of how much of
a threat as realistically Russia to further west, because look
how much progress they've made over in Ukraine. It's not
like they've exactly steam rolled the Ukrainians, is it.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
No, they haven't. I mean Vladimir Putin again said that
this could have been a war that could have been
done in a matter of days, and Ukraine defended itself
through the night and the weeks to come, and now
in the years to come to try and keep its
own territory. But now you look at where the battle
lines are, and where are things moving, and where is
Russia getting some control and more control, and essentially where
(08:37):
the battle lines fall now, they are still deep inside
Ukrainian territory. Ukraine hasn't been able to push Russia back
despite all of the waves of support that have come
at them from European nations, from the United States of America.
And that's why you've seen the United States say to Ukraine, well,
hang on a minute, We've given you all of this
support and we want something in return now too. But
(08:58):
when you're talking about the idea of could Russia move
further west into Europe, I mean you're talking realistically about
a scenari that is a trigger for World War three.
That's exactly what you're talking about. When in Vladimir Putin's eyes,
he wants to take back the old Soviet states, so
he wants to take those in Ukraine, south of Ukraine
and slightly furn of the West. I mean, understandably, Poland
(09:19):
would be significantly concerned. We've seen drones operating over airports
in Europe that have come from Russia. That's caused alarm.
But Mark Ruler is sending a diplomatic message. This is
saying to europe guys, you've got to lift your game
on defense spending, but also to the United States to say,
this could be a possibility if you let Russia steamroll Ukraine,
(09:40):
then this is a realistic chance we think could happen.
So it's a protracted conversation that is being cloaked in
various veiled messages, but the one message is simple. You've
got to find peace in Ukraine, and it cannot be
peace on Russia's terms.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Hey, just quickly, on the Venezuelan tanker, I've written that
question going. Was the seizure of that tanker lawful? But
I want to change that word too. Was there some
sort of legitimacy to the United States season in that
Venezuelan tanker?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I mean the United States are saying clearly there
would be. I mean there are some who are raising
legal issues around the idea of US troops boarding a
foreign tanker at sea in international waters. Is that an
act of war? Some would argue that there is already
effectively a war at play with Venezuela, not so much
(10:34):
in terms of ground troops in the traditional sense, but
certainly a political and a diplomatic one as well, because
the United States has been ramping up pressure on Venezuela.
It wants political change in there at once the authoritarian leader,
Nicholas Maduro to be ousted from that country. They have
put in place sweeping new sanctions, and part of what
they're looking at with this oil tanker was exactly in
(10:55):
regards to that. There is a concern and the United
States is pointing to national security concerns that Venezuelan oil
is being shipped into parts around the world, and this
tanker had previously been involved in moving oil from Iran
and into Syria and into Cuba. It's very complex in
its nature, but the fundamental thing you have to remember
(11:18):
is that Venezuela has oil. It has a lot of
us and the United States is essentially trying to keep
an eye on that. I mean, we all remember the
argument so that the Iraq War about the United States
gaining access to oil. Well, there's an element of that
playing out now too with Venezuela. Because Donald Trump wants
political change, is he then going to say to the
(11:39):
person who may replace Maduro. Hey, look, we helped you
get into power, so how about some of that oil.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Hey, Jonathan, I really appreciate your insights today. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
That's always good to talk to your listeners.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, cheers, Thanks very much. That's yours, correspondent, Jonathan Kearsley.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talk z be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Look, there's lots happening in the world of international politics
this week. First, NATO chief Mark Ritter Rutter, I'm not
sure exactly how to pronounce that warned Western allies to
prepare for war with Russia. He said that basically, within
the next five years, NATO countries will need to be
prepared for a scale of war that hasn't been seen
since our grandparents or great grandparents. And Donald Trump's due
(00:32):
to meet Zelenski shortly regarding a peace deal, and the
US has been keeping busy. Also, they seize that all
TAMCA off the coast of Venezuela this week, and the
tanker wend off course two days after its departure listed
to head for a Cuban port, rather than loading part
of its load to another ship before heading to Asia. Anyway,
it was seized shortly after this. Well, lots to get
on with US correspondent Jonathan Kearsley is with me now, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Afternoon, Good afternoon to you and your listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, thanks for joining us. Say where are we at?
I mean it goes on and on, doesn't it? With
the peace talks of Russia.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, it does. I mean you get a sense the
United States trying to ramp up a move to try
and get some sort of peace still at least signed
by years, and that still seems very problematic and very
difficult given how far apart both Ukraine and Russia are
on this proposal. You've got Steve Wikoff, the US envoy
to this region, flying into Berlin to Germany to meet
(01:23):
with the Ukrainian prison of a lot of missielands. He
and European leaders. Essentially they want to see what the
latest counter offer is to try and move negotiations forward.
But vladimim Putin has remained very steadfast in his resolve,
unsurprisingly because realistically, in the last few years since this
war began, he hasn't moved in Iota. He's now threatening
(01:44):
to take eastern Ukraine unless his demands are met and
take it entirely. This has been a costly war of lives.
It's been a costly war financially for Russia, but also
for many Western galuting the United States, including for Europe,
including some in the Southern Hemisphere too. Australia has been
providing assistance as well, So you have to look at
this from a broad spectrum is to exactly how they're
(02:05):
going to get to a position where the two sides
can agree right now by year's end. Well, time is ticking,
and it's ticking fast. We've been in these negotiations for months.
Donald Trump thought he could have this wrapped up fairly
quickly since becoming US president. That hasn't been the case.
And that's because Vladimir Putin has stuck his guns, if
you like. He has remained in essentially the same position
(02:28):
he has all along, in fact, in some instance even
pushing a harder line than what he initially had. So look,
you're going to see these conversations take place over the
course of the next twenty four forty eight hours or
so between Steve Witkoff and the European leaders and Ukraine,
and then whatever counteroffer is put forward is then going
to go back to the Russians and there will be
this sort of play by play, if you like, of
(02:51):
a diplomatic tennis match between the two countries. But right now,
it's very difficult to see how they can wrap this
up quickly by years. And they might have an idea
to do that, and they might want to do that,
but getting to that finish line him is That's the
real difficult point right now. While Ukraine says that it
is committed to peace and it is seeing positive signs
(03:12):
and moving forward, there's not much positivity. There's not much
movement on the key issues that Vladimir Putin has put forward,
and now he's making yet more threats about taking the
entire eastern side of the country unless he gets what
he wants.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Is that because he just suspects that Trump will just
get annoyed with as more likely to get annoyed with
Zelensky and put pressure on him rather than with Putin,
there'll be not really any genuine pushback from the States.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Putin is a strong arm and he's patient. He waited
a long time before making the move into Ukraine. He
could have done this at some point years ago. He
took some parts of he took Crimea essentially some years ago,
and then decided to make this move. Played He has
played a very long waiting game. Of course, we know
that his grand vision for Russia is to return it
(03:59):
to the old Soviet days and acquire the territory that
it essentially had, and right back in the beginning of this,
Remember too that Vladimir Putin said, oh, yes, we will
recognize Ukraine. But essentially that was recognized it from what
Russia saw as Ukraine, which is just a couple of
kilometers or so exactly of Ukraine itself, not of the
entire country. So it doesn't recognize Ukraine as a ballad
(04:21):
country and thinks it's Soviet territory. And Vladimir Putin is very,
very strong and he's very patient. So what he's now
doing in playing the game that he's playing is testing
the resolve of European leaders. He's testing the resolve primarily though,
of the US President Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, so who's what's Salinski? Who's he likely to try
and please? Zolensky yesterday aim to please the Americans and
then hope that they can please Putin. I mean, who
is Zelensky sort of trying to where's he trying to
thread the needle?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Primarily he's trying to send the needle west, and that
is on a road through Europe. He knows that European
leaders have his back. He knows that European leaders are
more concerned about the possibility of a long term downfall
of Ukraine, which is why you're seeing that warning from
Mark Rutta that the European leaders need to be prepared
(05:16):
for some sort of conflict with Russia. That's why you're
seeing the European leaders need to arm up in defense pending.
But they're also doing that because of pressure from the
United States. And that's also where Volodi Miszelenski is looking.
Go back to February, they had the Oval Office bust
up between him and Donald Trump, and he's played a
very very different game since, not exactly trying to appease him,
(05:36):
but know that they knowing that they are coming at
this from different viewpoints and they both essentially want the
same sort of outcome. But he's having to negotiate not
only dealing with the Europeans, and he would see that
as fairly straightforward. But his primary objective is to keep
the United States support on sides, to keep the United
(05:58):
States at the table, and he's lent on European leaders,
including Mark Ruder, in order to do that. If they
keep that aligned, if they keep that sense of unity together,
then they can deal with the negotiations with Russia. If
the United States breaks away and goes the other way,
well that becomes a significant problem for Ukraine, for Europe,
(06:18):
and realistically it becomes a problem for the Western world too.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So when Mark Russa says we need to prepare for
war within five years with Russia, who's his main audience
for that comment. Does it European leaders or is it Trump?
Is it the America.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
There's an element of all of the above. Essentially, he
is trying to push on and he has performed very
well alongside Donald Trump. He seems to have a very
good working relationship with him, but an understanding two of
how he operates. The one thing the American President wants
to see from Europe, and remember, just a matter of
days ago he called them decaying nations that were essentially
(06:59):
withering away. He wants them to aggressively wrap up defense spending.
He's essentially saying to NATO, to European leaders that you
guys need to increase more of what you spend on defense.
You guys need to spend more because he views it
that America is constantly having to come to the party
to help out Europe in terms of military support. When
he's saying, look, America is going to be willing to
(07:20):
do that under my administration, but we will be willing
to do that if you bring more cash to the table,
if you bring more of your assets, if you increase
your own resources. And Mark Rotter very well understands that point.
So he's trying to talk to European leaders to essentially say, hey, guys, look,
you've really got to increase this and increase this fast.
You need to be ready. But at the same time
(07:41):
he's sending somewhat of a message veiled message to the
United States too. But not only is this about Hey, look,
I'm telling all of these European nations, yes, they need
to increase defense spending, but we are very, very very
wary of Russia and we need you to support us
in this. So there's kind of a two pronged message
that he's sending in that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, because I mean the question of how much of
a threat as realistically Russia to further west, because look
how much progress they've made over in Ukraine. It's not
like they've exactly steam rolled the Ukrainians, is it.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
No, they haven't. I mean Vladimir Putin again said that
this could have been a war that could have been
done in a matter of days, and Ukraine defended itself
through the night and the weeks to come, and now
in the years to come to try and keep its
own territory. But now you look at where the battle
lines are, and where are things moving, and where is
Russia getting some control and more control, and essentially where
(08:37):
the battle lines fall now, they are still deep inside
Ukrainian territory. Ukraine hasn't been able to push Russia back
despite all of the waves of support that have come
at them from European nations, from the United States of America.
And that's why you've seen the United States say to Ukraine, well,
hang on a minute, We've given you all of this
support and we want something in return now too. But
(08:58):
when you're talking about the idea of could Russia move
further west into Europe, I mean you're talking realistically about
a scenari that is a trigger for World War three.
That's exactly what you're talking about. When in Vladimir Putin's eyes,
he wants to take back the old Soviet states, so
he wants to take those in Ukraine, south of Ukraine
and slightly furn of the West. I mean, understandably, Poland
(09:19):
would be significantly concerned. We've seen drones operating over airports
in Europe that have come from Russia. That's caused alarm.
But Mark Ruler is sending a diplomatic message. This is
saying to europe guys, you've got to lift your game
on defense spending, but also to the United States to say,
this could be a possibility if you let Russia steamroll Ukraine,
(09:40):
then this is a realistic chance we think could happen.
So it's a protracted conversation that is being cloaked in
various veiled messages, but the one message is simple. You've
got to find peace in Ukraine, and it cannot be
peace on Russia's terms.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Hey, just quickly, on the Venezuelan tanker, I've written that
question going. Was the seizure of that tanker lawful? But
I want to change that word too. Was there some
sort of legitimacy to the United States season in that
Venezuelan tanker?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I mean the United States are saying clearly there
would be. I mean there are some who are raising
legal issues around the idea of US troops boarding a
foreign tanker at sea in international waters. Is that an
act of war? Some would argue that there is already
effectively a war at play with Venezuela, not so much
(10:34):
in terms of ground troops in the traditional sense, but
certainly a political and a diplomatic one as well, because
the United States has been ramping up pressure on Venezuela.
It wants political change in there at once the authoritarian leader,
Nicholas Maduro to be ousted from that country. They have
put in place sweeping new sanctions, and part of what
they're looking at with this oil tanker was exactly in
(10:55):
regards to that. There is a concern and the United
States is pointing to national security concerns that Venezuelan oil
is being shipped into parts around the world, and this
tanker had previously been involved in moving oil from Iran
and into Syria and into Cuba. It's very complex in
its nature, but the fundamental thing you have to remember
(11:18):
is that Venezuela has oil. It has a lot of
us and the United States is essentially trying to keep
an eye on that. I mean, we all remember the
argument so that the Iraq War about the United States
gaining access to oil. Well, there's an element of that
playing out now too with Venezuela. Because Donald Trump wants
political change, is he then going to say to the
(11:39):
person who may replace Maduro. Hey, look, we helped you
get into power, so how about some of that oil.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Hey, Jonathan, I really appreciate your insights today. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
That's always good to talk to your listeners.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, cheers, Thanks very much. That's yours, correspondent, Jonathan Kearsley.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talk z be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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