September 1, 2024 • 39 mins
A common misconception is that only the very wealthy need trusts, but many people may be putting their assets at risk without one.
Author Janet Xuccoa joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to give you all the basics of trusts.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverage. This
is the Weekend Collective. By the way, if you missed her,
the conversation with Greg Pain about gadget's quite fascinating actually
because I thought that the purest form of exercise without
a gadget. But I almost feel I need to go
shopping now. But you can check any of the previous
hours that any of the hours you've missed on the
show by looking for our podcast. Just look for the
(00:31):
Weekend Collective on iHeartRadio or wherever you podcasts, and you
can even go to the News Talk ZB website. But
now it has time for smart money. And we've been
sort of looking at doing this for a while, but
the issue of trusts often they've come up, and I've
sort of tried to rely on my very distant memory
on trust law, which is pretty pretty pathetic. So if
(00:52):
you've got any questions on trusts, this is the hour
to give us a call. And joining me is She
is the managing director of the New Zealand Family Trust
Services and I've been trying to pronounce her name and
all sorts of exotic ways and I got close. But
Janet Zukoa, Hello, how.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Are you hello there?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, it's because it's your name is spelled z u
ccoa and I was sure it had to be a
shower or something in there. But anyways, Zaka, So you're
managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services. What is
that organization?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Ah? Well, that organization is really New Zealand as Trustee
of Choice, so it acts as an independent trustee for
many trusts in New Zealand and it carries out all
of the administration compliance work that we have to do
now for trusts.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
And how did you Okay, I'm guessing being the managing director,
you've been at the game a little while. How did
you get into trust work in the first place?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Well, if I if I tell you how many years
I've been out, no, we wade away, but we won't
be doing that but definitely definitely for for several decades.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, So what made you get interested in the trust
side of things?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well, I was a little like you. I liked equity
at law school. I enjoyed equity and I do believe
in really protecting wealth and not just for the sake
of building up assets. But when you have assets, you
have choices and options, and when you satisfied your base
level of living, you can help others if you've got assets.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and actually, when you mean protecting wealth, it's not
about protecting huge wealth necessarily. It's just any anything you've accumulated,
is it.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, that's right. People think that you've got to be
ultra wealthy to have trust, but that's not the case
in New Zealand. Our spirit of entrepreneurship is well and
surely alive. I mean New Zealand has made up of
small and medium sized companies. They dot our landscape. And
when you're in business, that comes with a risk. And
so people that have built, you know, just to simply
(02:51):
fail in the home, they don't want to put that
on the line, and putting it in a trust can
help protect.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That because there are people who would see if you
are hired, not hiding, of course, but there an ethical
dimension to trusts because there will always be a headline
somewhere where someone has done some dodgy dealings, but most
of their wealth has tied up in a family trust,
which means that people who maybe have felt they've been
hard done by can't get at it is there. I
(03:19):
guess it doesn't mean matter, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Deep, devious, dishonest, there's all the words that come to mind,
aren't they with when you're looking at trusts, And I
think that's care of the likes of TV and books
and Panama papers. But in New Zealand, in New Zealand
in general, in Zealand in general, we have honest, hard
working kiwis that are just trying to get ahead and
(03:42):
protect what, protect what they've built up, and trusts to
use as a great device for that in relation to assets,
but not just against creditor claims, You've got relationship claims too.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Actually, of course people if you are well. He's an
example I guess would be if you were in another relationship,
you've got children from your previous relationship and you don't
want to relationship where you find that suddenly half your
assets are gone to this new and you want to
protect the assets for your kids.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Well, So a lot of people are entering into even
first relationships later on in life and they've built their
careers and they've got some wealth behind them. Then you've
got the second second types of relationships where they've been
through a divorce or or a split on a de
facto and they want to bring you know, they're going
to bring assets with them to that relationship and they're
(04:31):
happy to share what they've built up with that new person,
but they want to ring fence the assets that they
bring into the relationship for themselves and their and their children.
And trust along with a good property relationship agreement and
helps that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Do you actually do you need both? When you so,
if you had you, if you had a family, if
you had a trust to protect your assets. You're in
a new relationship, do you need the property agreement or
does your trust do all that for you?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well? I don't. I don't necessarily think that a trust
solely will do the job. Because we've got New Zealand
courts can see through trusts and they can you know
that they can make judgments to break trusts if they
if they think that that's necessary.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And when you say see through, the common understanding is
see through as I know what you're doing here. But
when you say c through, you mean like look through
in terms of they can say I don't care what
wall you've set up here, I'm knocking it down.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, I'm knocking down I'm going to come through and
take the assets, and I'm going to divide the assets
in an appropriate way that they that they feel is
just so properly relationship agreements. I think every lawyer would
say properly relationship agreement as a keystone to protecting health
in the first instance. And then a trust or two helps.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, so who so who needs No I'm trying to put,
at what stage do you think people should consider having
a trust? Because and how many trusts are there actually
in New Zealand you consider we've got a population of
five million people.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
We don't actually have a register of trusts in New Zealand.
We do, of course when the government does you know,
statistics every sort of is it three years? That is statistics?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The census is every five years?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Five years? Okay, okay, maybe every five years then.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Four I have to google that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, whenever they do that. Whenever they do that that activity,
trusts do come up there. Yeah, but they and so
so you do see trusts and numbers like three hundred thousand,
five hundred thousand all banded around. But we don't actually
have a register in New Zealand of trusts. It's been
mooted every now and again you hear some grumbles about it,
(06:33):
but hasn't come out yet, so we don't know the
exact number.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Are the what are the biggest mistakes? By the way,
it is every five years the census, my producers, just
right now? What are the Can you set up your
own trust? Can you?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Literally it would be very difficult to set up your
own trusts and unwise yeah, and definitely imprudent. Yeah, you
want to want a lawyer to set up a trust,
someone who actually understands the law and knows what they're doing.
Because trust have longevity, I mean under around you and
you act the trusts at twenty nineteen, one hundred and
twenty five years those trusts live now. Of course you
(07:08):
can bring them for which you can invest them earlier
than that. But trusts are for a long duration. They're
not just for today and next year.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So how is there a limit to how long a
trust can last?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
It used to be eighty years, now it's one hundred
and twenty five.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
How do they come up with that number?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Don't know, you'd have to ask the Low Commission that.
But if you think it through, it does make sense
because you would have this generation the parents say, and
then the children, yeah, and then maybe the grand children
and then the grand children.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Depending on how late they have.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Absolutely, so you can see that a trust could be
for three or more generations, and that would that's I
suppose what they were thinking about in the back of
their minds when they chose one hundred and twenty five years.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So legally, when you set up a trust, the assets
I'm trying to remember everything and I'll get it wrong,
but they belong that the trustees actually become the legal
owners of whatever you put in the trust.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, so have we have some positions in the trust
and well, so first off, the people that say up
the trust, they're called the settlers, and then you have
people that appoint trustees and the tire trustees and they're
called the appointurs. And then we have the trustees. They're
the people the charge was managing the assets for the
(08:20):
benefit of the beneficiaries, and they're the people that benefit
from the trust. So I always I liken it in
my mind too. I don't know a bit like a
cargo ship. You've got you've got the captain of the ship, okay,
and then you've got all the passengers, and then you've
got all the assets. The cargo is sitting in the
cargo holt.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I think, what's the rules around who can be a trust?
And if you are trying to protect your own assets
for you and your family, how does it work with
you establishing a trust where you are the beneficiary?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, you went all those hats, aren't you. You're like
the settler, you're setting it up. You're the appointeror who
has the ability to hire and fire trustees. You're the
trustee who's meant to be looking after the assets, and
then you're one of the beneficiaries and you can't. That
doesn't look it, does it? Yeah? I know, and it
is possible, and in fact it does happen. That is
how most of our discretionary family trusts are set up
(09:11):
in New Zealand. And then we run into all sorts
of complications there because there are rules about self benefiting
and being prudent too, making the right decisions for the beneficiaries.
And I suppose if you're challenged, it's quite hard to say, well,
I've made a complete independent decision. I haven't thought about
haven't thought about myself at all. When you're in that
position where you're holding all of the roles. And that's
(09:34):
one of the reasons why independent trustees are are put
into a trust arrangement because they bring some independence to
some decision making.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Does that mean if you are a trustee and a beneficiary,
but they are also a couple of independent trustees, does
that mean you might not be part of that decision
or you would still just say, look, I've been part
of a decision, but I'd supported by my independent trustees
or something.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Well, at lawd decision making is unanimous unless unless the
trustees says otherwise, so they would always be part of
the decision making. But you would like to think that
the dependent trustee is well qualified and able to be
smart enough to know what's best for the beneficiaries.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So that's what you guys do. Is not New Zealand
Family Trust Services, So you provide trustees.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, first off, we will be an independent trustee for
people's trusts. And you know, under the under the New
Trust Act and and different pieces of legislation like for example,
the Amendments to the Tax Administration Act and the Income
Tax Act, trust trustees can really be held to high
high standards of behavior. They can be really liable, can
(10:43):
be real libil.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
If you're a trustee for a trust that has not
followed its obligations through then Bengo, you're in the gun,
aren't you.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, absolutely real liability and in that your assets could
be on the line. So independent trustees they're harder to
find these days, and we have we've taken the position
where we want to be independent trustees of clients trusts.
However we do do the job right, we will make
the trust, we'll ensure that it will be compliant. We
(11:12):
know what I call settlers censure behavior where setlers just
want to do whatever they want to do and and
you know they're just going to have their way.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well that's I mean, that's ideally what you'd want anyway,
if you're if you're if you are a bona fide
a news person who's got some wealth that you want
to protect and you want to look after it for
your descendants. You don't want to be left to your
own devices. You want someone like you, guys, because otherwise
the courts are going to look through your trust before
you know it and puffit's all gone.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Well they are music to my years.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
But it's what's music, It's what I just said.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, exactly, because it's quite surprising. It's quite clients are
comments like, no, they're my assets. Some under us it's like, well, actually,
hang on a minute, they belong to the trust, they're
not your assets.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
In fact, hell, is that quite common that people think
I'm going to get a trust and they come in
and you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have
to have one of those conversations because this is not
about hiding stuff away and just doing what you want
and avoid it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, it's called settler centric behavior, and there's been a
lot of it that's gone on. And of course that's
happened in the past because there hasn't really been a
lot of scrutiny on trustees. But now under that new
piece of that new piece of legislation, trustees are subject
to high levels of scrutiny. Beneficiaries can hold them to
(12:28):
account much more easily than what they've ever done before.
And so you'll find a lot of independent trustees who
have been fairly passive, who haven't been who haven't wanted
to or haven't demanded to look at balance sheets every
year and sit down and hold annual trusting meetings, who
haven't don all of that they want to actually get
out of the job, out of the role, and so
(12:50):
trust to look around for an independent trustee. And I
guess that's where we come in. Our company comes in.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Because obviously, if you've got let's say you've got a
significant level of wealth, like many millions of dollars, then
that level of the level of asset sort of wealth,
you'd be able to have trustees where you obviously there's
time is money, and you could have a more complex
trust where you would expect the the the trustees in
(13:16):
your role to be hands on a lot of the time,
whereas for many people they would just want a fairly
simple arrangement where the trustee I mean, where am I going?
Where am I going with? Yes?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Where you're going with that is like, well, if it's
just if the if the trust just holds the home
and maybe a family badge, Yeah, and then they have
an independent trustee sitting alongside them. Mister and missus Smith
are the independent trustee sitting alongside them. That's going to
involve lots of costs. That's probably where you're going, mate.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I'm asking how you can avoid it being something where
it's you've got someone who's on the on the clock,
you know, several months.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Of the year, Well it would be it'd be everybother
the year because of independent trustees. Trustees, it's there all
the time, but they only they probably only access them
in a situation where there's pacificst that's like the family
home and a back probably only access them a couple
of times the year. And I don't think there is
any way to avoid the cast good professional trustees chart.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
No.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I guess what I mean is there would be trusts
where the job of the trustee is going to be
more complex and more expensive. Whereas if you've got a
family batch and the family home and you shove it
in a trust. Yes, intuitively, that tells me that you're
not really going to have a huge amount of trust expenses,
would you, I don't know how.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Well you would. You still need to pay for the
independent trustee to be there, and we do take we
take insurance policies that a fair whack. We still need
to spend time meeting the trustees and considering the beneficiaries
and reviewing the assets. So you've still got to have
an annual trustee meeting. You know, you still got to
have your eye over those trust assets. The law doesn't
(14:49):
distinguish between assets that are only worth I don't know,
half a million tire assets worth gazillions of dollars. It's
the law, is the law?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah? Yeah, okay. Look, if you've got any questions on
trusts and you're or you're thinking maybe do I need one?
And now you're listening to this and you're thinking, you've
got a small business and with the way things are,
maybe you need to protect some assets. Any questions you've got,
will have a crack at it. Well, I won't have
a crack at answering them, Janet will. And by the way,
(15:17):
you have you've given me a copy of the You've
written a book which actually is not out yet, Janet,
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
No, Well, it's nationwide book distributors. They have got that
book now and they will be visiting I would think
most of the bookshops in New Zealand in the next
in the next month or so. I did have a
call from from a chain of bookshops last week who'd
heard that the book was available, and I just pushed
them to nationwide book distributors, who will good on movies.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And it's called trusts one two three. But you can't
quite get it yet. Soon okay, I eight hundred eighty
ten eighty will take your texts as well. But what
any questions you've got around protecting your assets and trusts?
Then we'd love to hear from you on I eight
one hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine two nine two.
It's twenty three past five News Talk zed B. It's
welcome back to the show. This is the weekend collective
(16:06):
Smart Money and we're doing a bit of a special
talking about trust. If you've got any questions, we'd love
to hear from you on eight hundred and eighty ten
and eighty even if you are the beneficiary of a
trust or you want to know if there's some way
you can actually get your hands on. Actually my guest
is Janet Zukoa and she is the managing director of
New Zealand Family Trust Services. Janet, if you are a trustee,
(16:30):
say there's a couple of you and you are beneficiaries
of a trust, you can you if you both agree,
you can just get you can? Can you dissolve the
trust if you are the only beneficiaries? How on a second, sorry,
I'll just set your microphone. They're sorry about that.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
First, or if you would have to be a beneficiary,
So that's really important, and the beneficiaries have to be
certain everybody. We have to know who all the beneficiaries are.
So if it was certain that it was just the
two of you as beneficiary.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or three or four but whoever, well, if.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It's really certain who the beneficiaries are and the classes
are closed it's just them, it's not future children or grandchildren,
that's sort of thing, then yes, they can all mind
together and they can agree to one the trust to
an end.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Because the example would be, I guess and your parents
or your grandparents have set up a trust and there's
a maybe there's just there's three or four grandchildren, and
everyone would think that you have to sort of just
receive and come from the trust according to the terms
of it. But if you're all together and you go,
hang on a minute, do we all want to just
(17:35):
get hold of the assets and sell it and split
them up? You can as long as you all agree.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You've got to all agree. But a lot of the
time when a trust is brought to an end, the
assets moved from trust to trust. So let's say it's
two beneficiaries and the parents have died, and the two
beneficiaries now want the assets. The assets can be divided
equally and then to a new trust set up, and
then they move from trust to trust for the beneficiaries.
(18:03):
And you might do that because the beneficial have lists
of their own.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Oh so they just want to have their own They
want to split it up, but they're like, look, I
still want to protect my assets absolutely, and so is
that quite common?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Very common? And so they may have business with themselves,
they have a relationship risk.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
How would it work? Say, actually, I'm just coming out
with some scenarios here to if say someone set up
a trust and let's say grandma and granddad and grandma
and granddad have passed on, and the trust is for
the kids, and ultimately when those kids are gone, their grandchildren.
(18:42):
If for the time being the trust is just in
the favor of the first generation, do they do all
the grandchildren have to agree at all? Or can the
you know, I forget you know how things get passed
down through the generation. So those, once those potential beneficiaries
are alive, they all have to agree. Whether they be
the first generation or the second generation or the third
(19:04):
they've all got.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
To agree absolutely, and there could also be unborn beneficiaries.
And so that's where it gets really what.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
If someone's pregnant you mean, or just imaginary, but.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
They haven't they don't exist yet, Okay, So it might
be for for it might be like a bloodline trust,
and so there might be unborn beneficiaries that haven't been
born yet.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So you can't get rid of that trust.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, at that point you can result to the courts,
because there is sections in the new Trust Act which
allow the courts to to have a look at that
sort of thing and bring the trust to an end.
But it is a result back to.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
The court that's fascinating this area of law because the
thing about law, this area of law, and we have
talked about it in the break, is while there is
legislation now that the government has drafted and passed, the
law of trust goes back. I mean how many.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
How far people think that it goes back to the
Crusades times, but an actual factor goes much further back.
By the late by the late Roman Republic period, we
had trusts that we're operating well at least that a
trust type of arrangement that was reflected in the laws
of succession So trusts are thousands of years old and
(20:11):
I can't see them. Every now and again you get
a murmur or maybe they're going to get rid of trust?
How much?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
How much has the nature of trust change? But with
the legislation, are they still essentially the same?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Well, I think at their base level they are the same.
But trust. That's one of the wonderful reasons of trust.
One of the why trusts have endured for so long,
because they respond to our varying and different socio economic
conditions and our norms and our values.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I can hear cynical people who listen to talk about
going that's because it's a great way to hide. Well,
you know, we'll protect or protect wealth, depending which way
you want to look at it. Let's take some calls. Colin,
good afternoon, Yeah, good afternoon.
Speaker 6 (20:53):
Just regarding I guess tax and I understand that the
tax rate's going to be up to thirty nine percent
for all trusts. So would that mean basically, you're going
to be greater burden of tax putting your assets into
a trust compared to if you didn't, for.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Example, Well, that that is true. The trust the new
trustee taxad is thirty nine percent and that that changed
on the first of April twenty twenty four. Prior to
that worth thirty three percent. And of course, because our
individual highest marginal tax rate was thirty nine percent, you
did see money moving from companies, for example, at twenty
(21:36):
eight percent into you know, moving around, so that you've
got good benefits of a tax. The benefits are still
there now despite the alignment with the individual top marginal
tax rate. And I'll give you an example. Let's say
that a trust does receive dividend income from a company
and the trustees they decide that they're not going to
(21:57):
retain that income, they're going to actually pay it out
to beneficiaries. Well, when the beneficiaries receive the income they've got,
they've got declared that a course in their personal tax return,
and then they pay tax at their personal martinal tax rate.
And that could indeed be lower than thirty nine percent.
So there are some benefits there, possibly, possibly, But nobody
(22:17):
would set up a trust these days for a tax benefit. First,
it would be illegal anyway, the tax benefits are merely incidental, okay.
And then really the costs of running a trust. You
we've did mention that before on the on the cost
of running a trust. You know, they don't they don't
have to be exorbitant, but that is going to cost
(22:37):
you something. So people don't run around trying to save
three or four cents when they've got to incur the costs.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Any follow up their Colin, are you looking at getting
a trust or you've got one?
Speaker 6 (22:50):
I've had one for a few years, and yeah, so
I just I probably need to talk to my accounts
a bit more about it as well. But you know,
I'm currently paying on my normal salury thirty nine percent
top rates.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
But with.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Then I'm not earning them, will I'd be paying thirty
nine percent on the trust income to myself, even though
it might not be that much money.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Well, I think I think good account at this experience
with trusts, and maybe companies they can they can often
help you with that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Okay, okay, thanks Colin. Does that get my head around this?
If you've got assets, so if you it's not really
a part of it is really that relevant what the
tax top tax rate is. If your personal tax rates
thirty nine percent, if you keep those assets in there,
any income, you're going to be paying thirty nine percent anyway,
So who cares? If you're sticking in a trust, have
(23:51):
I got that rights?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, that would be true. But trusts are often used
in conjunction with companies. So companies pay dividends and they
may pay a dividend through to a trust. And so
of course at that point you're paying t twenty eight
percent company tax rate. To pay a dividend out, you've
got to pay that thirty three percent. So there's got
to be you know, you've got to pay an extra
(24:15):
top upper tax I suppose of five percent, and then
it moves into the trust and you would think, do
we have to do we now have to top it
up again to the thirty nine percent, But that depends
on whether the trust is retained the income or not.
It depends on whether the recipient's got high tax rate
as well. It might have low tax rates.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So okay, we've got lots of text. Let's see how
we can get into these questions. What's the difference between
a trust and a will?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Ah? Well, wills deal with personal assets of individuals, like
I don't know, jewelry and cars, and trusts tend to
they still hold assets. But really, when you're looking at
a trust, it's a device for holding assets for a
long time. The will doesn't really come near it. Usually
you have what's called a memorandum of bushes rather than
(25:02):
a will, which sets out what needs to happen when
the person dies.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Can I will establish a trust?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yes it can, Yeah, you can. You can establish a
trust via a will.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But in general, and the person who actually administers the
will I acco't reanmyber, the executive. The executives they are
acting in a sort of position as a trustee for
the time temporarily.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Well, they are there. They're overseeing the personal distribution of
the assets and accordance with the will instructions.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
How do you say set up a trust as parents
who want their children to benefit from it, but not
any partners of children if their relationships break down.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You just make sure that the children are named as
specifically yes, efectly. Yeah. And also when when you do
pay out the assets to the children, you would, you know,
you would make sure you've got the right documentation around that.
You might also do that via a trust as well.
A lot of parents these days pay pay deposits, you know,
(25:55):
for children to get them into houses and that sort
of thing. You need to make sure that there's plenty
of documentation around that if it's coming via the trust.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Okay, we've got the calls rolling in now it would hapen.
And since we get into these texts, one more text,
then we'll get into the cause. I think I almost
can answer have a crack at answering this myself, but
I'll hand it to you. Here we go. Hi, guys,
I'm looking at I'm looking at going through a divorce.
I'm looking at going through a divorce. You're anticipating a divorce? Okay,
I have moved most of my assets into a trust.
(26:23):
Will this protect them for the divorce? I had these
assets before meeting my wife, but I don't have a prenup.
I would say that he's in trouble.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
That's from being I would say they definitely go go
talk to a lawyer. That's for sure. Moving assets into
a trust to try and avoid sharing them on a
relationship that's probably not going to.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
The court's going to look through that doesn't think they're
good at Yeah, And even if the assets are in trust,
if a person's done significant work on an asset then
that's held in the trust, then the courts would likely
still award some benefit to that person.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Actually probably the answer is in matrimonial property law, really,
isn't it, Because if you have kept those assets completely
separate and they've had nothing to do there with a relationship,
then talk to a lawyer and may be able to
just that's part of the argument. But it's not going
to be argument free, is it.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, it's not going to be argument free. So I'll
give you an example. Let's say that the trust owned
the house well before this gentleman met his newest and dewiest,
and then the newest and dewest moves into the house
and she does substantial work on the house, maybe puts
money into the house into renovations. Then I don't think
on the dissolution he's going to be able to say
(27:35):
it's all mine. Okay, I think I think somewhere along
the line.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It's intermingled, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, Yeah, it's into vangled and a lawyer and a
judge is going to say, you know, Purney up in
saying that I'm not I'm not giving I'm certainly not
giving financial.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No, No, that's important we do that. Do that have
that disclaimer. There's no specific advice, but where you know
you've yeah, you need to get some good advice on that.
But it's easy. I can just remember from my legal
days that if you keep your assets separate, if you've
got a separate bank account, never used by the relationship
and it sits there separately, you've got a better chance
that you're going to keep it. Probably should have set
(28:12):
up the trust before the relationship though.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
That's helpful.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, that's helpful. Right, We're going to take some calls.
In just a moment. It is twenty two minutes to
six News Talks. There'd be. My guest is Janet Zuchoa.
She is the managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Answering your questions, give us a call back in a
mow and welcome back to News Talks. Be gosh, time
(28:35):
flies when you're talking about this stuff. We're talking about trusts.
My guest is Janet Zucchoa. She's managing director of New
Zealand Family Trust Services. And let's get into the calls now.
We're going to have to move as quickly as we
can because time is upon us.
Speaker 7 (28:48):
Ron.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Hello, Hi, here you doing good things?
Speaker 7 (28:52):
What good couple of couple of quick questions. A lot
of these older family trusts have been set up where
the trustees have full discretion of how the trust is
managed and all the rest of it. As they view
a beneficiary to be a discritionary beneficiary, are they able
to withhold information about the trust and not provide it
(29:15):
to that beneficiary upon request?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Ah, you're moving now into the disclosure obligations under the
new Trust Act. So that's an interesting point in itself.
You used to be under the old Act. That used
to be that, you know, people didn't actually necessarily know
that they were beneficiary. So there's a duty where you know,
you can hold trustees to account, but to hold a
trustee to an account, you've got to at least know
(29:37):
that you're beneficiary, haven't you in the first instance.
Speaker 8 (29:39):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yes, And so now under the new Trust Act there's
sections there which layout that disclosure to be made to
beneficiaries and factors to be taken into accounts. So I
think that most trustees that I see do in detail
tell people that they are beneficiaries. But there are provisions
also under that Act not to disclose to beneficiaries they
(30:05):
are indeed beneficiaries, and not to disclose information.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
What about the basic information that they're required to you
know how they're mandated by that new Act.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, so, well, it's not necessarily strict mandate. There are
there is a provision under the Act where you can
you can with hold information and not disclose. So as
long as long as the act provisions are followed, then
I guess.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hey, did you mention the expression of discretionary beneficiary? Run
is that what's a discretionary beneficiary.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Discretionary beneficiaries is where where they are indeed beneficiary, but
they are not entitled to anything as of right, so
the trustees and trustees have to consider them. Okay, that's
what they are entitled to be, is considered, but benefiting
is discretionary and at the discretion of the trustees.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
It sounds like a family trust where Dad's set up
a trust and he and dad's trustee and decides whether
that's what he's going to give each.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Child absolutely, whereas fixed beneficiaries fex beneficiaries are actually in
the trusteed depending upon terms of the trusteed, of course,
but fixed manifesturies will be entitled to capital and income,
and that's that's usually stated for kids.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Can be so complicated. I love the idea of secret
trust where you can have a secret trust that none
of the beneficiaries know that they're and it's.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Like that was that was the old time with it not.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Now old days. Okay, hey, thanks for you call Ron Lance.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Hello, yeah, Hi. So my question is I'm thirty five
years old and I've got a free freehold house and
if I was to ever get in a relationship, it's
not currently in a trust. But would it be worth
putting in a trust purely for the purposes of protecting
it in any possible future relationships?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Definitely, So you don't really want to You don't want
the nearest and dearest to come in and it's all
fine while we're playing in the sandpit happily. But when
that done, when you know, when we're starting to fight
over the bucket and spade, then that's where things can
get kind of nasty. So trust will work with them
plenty of time behind them. So if you're going to
(32:09):
protect or try to protect your home, you want to
do that well in advance of a relationship. So yes, indeed,
talk to a lawyer put that. I would recommend that
it would be put into a trust. But at the
same time, when you are entering into a serious relationship,
you do need to think about a property relationship agreement,
and a good lawyer will be able to guide you
(32:30):
on that.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Sure, Yeah, because during the ownership I think like, yeah,
I joined income would be paying for rates and insurance
and and some some of the ongoing expenses holding the house,
even though and so's and so.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
That's where you where you get into murky territory, which
is why the properly relationship is the agreement is really important.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, so a couple of things there. Yeah. Actually, it's
the purpose of setting up the trust there is quite
a relevant one to whether the court's going to look
through it, isn't it. So what's what's an example of
a legitimate purpose? It's that a legitimate purpose. I'm about
to get into a new relationship. We're going to bang
my house and a trust so my if it doesn't
work out, they can't get the hands on it.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
That's not quite a legitimate I mean, that's that's illegitimate
or no, No, that would be quite legitimate because you
wanted to try try and protect protect the house.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
As opposed to I'm setting up a new business and
I'm going to go into debt a lot, and I'm
going to save the family house. That sounds dodgier.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
No, well, you're trying to protect the house there. But
what wouldn't what probably wouldn't be tolerated, is you've been
in a relationship for five years with your nearest and
dearest and as that last last gentleman said, you know,
joint income is going towards the outgoings of the house,
the mortgage, the rates, the insurance, is that sort of thing,
and you decide, oh, well, I think that I'll put
(33:47):
this into a trust so that when I when I
leave my wife or my wife lives at the husband,
then it's all going to be mine. I mean, you're
in the relationship and that's not going to be tolerated,
I doubt by the courts.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Okay, right, let's take another court bill.
Speaker 9 (34:03):
Hello, hello, I am A quick question for a discretionary trust.
Speaker 8 (34:09):
Can the trustees.
Speaker 9 (34:11):
Decide to use the the assets of their trust or
the money and their trust a charity that doesn't benefit
the beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
It would depend upon the terms of the trusteed, so
you would need to look there.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So that how and you're talking about there's a trust,
there are some discretionary beneficiaries, but the person who set
up the trust or the trustees also want to give
some money to a charity which gives no benefit to anyone,
but that charity beneficiaries. That God gets complicated, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Well, the settler I wanted that the settler might have
wanted that to happen, and so the deed of trust
he may actually provide for the trustees to have that
power to put money into charities.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Which tells me that a trust is much more flexible
than people might imagine. Then, depending on the terms of it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Very flexible device. That's one of the reasons why they've
endured for so long.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Any other follow up there, Billy there, Yes, it's for
some context.
Speaker 8 (35:07):
It's a wide ranging Indeed, it does have the word
charity in it. The main trustee has passed away, the
leftover trustees have got They say a verbal that this
person wants to set up a trust set up a
charity at some stage. I think it doesn't necessarily mean
(35:30):
family trust to set up a charity, but maybe personal.
So the independent trustees have decided that they will use money.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Okay, sounds sounds like some good advices needed via lawyer
on that.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Gosh, So if you can set up, so people can
basically can set up a trust where they can still
sort of enjoy the assets, et cetera. There are some
discretionary beneficiaries, but you can still sort of do whatever
you want with the assets and the trust up to
a point if you've journ it up.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
So trustees have to use the assets for the benefit
of the beneficiaries.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
And also well that one.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Well, yes, that's actually not using it for that. It
sounds like it's not using the money for the benefit
of the beneficiaries. But the settler may also have wanted
the trustees to be able to use money for charitable
purposes to.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Okay, are is there a limit to other purposes that
are not in favor of the beneficiaries? So, for instance,
that sounds like all charitable purpose sounds like something their
trustees might be able to do. But can they do
other things that are not in favor of the beneficiaries?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Deep question question.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
With about two minutes to answer it about that We'll
come back with some more texts in just a moment.
It's ten to Sex News Talks. I'd be and welcome
back to the show. This is the weekend collector Smart Money.
My guest is Janet Zuchoa, that's x u c coo
A just for because it is a it's a new
one for me, Janet, Look, we've got one. I've selected
(37:07):
one text because we've only a couple of minutes. Just
a quick question. A trust house now for sale as
one of two beneficiaries, Can the trust be dissolved if
you're not happy with how trustees are dividing the sale all?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Well? Again, for a question like that, there's there's lots
of angles on that I would urge in the first
instance to sit down and have a sensible conversation with
the trustees and with the other beneficiaries. Couldn't be dissolved?
I doubt very much. It could be dissolved just on
one beneficiary, say so.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It sounds like maybe one's getting more than the other.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
One, not without the course to the courts. But if
it's discretionary, well, trustees may may have the discretion on
how they deal with those cell proceeds. I wouldn't. If
I was a beneficiary and I was missing out on
something like that, then I'd definitely get a little bit
of advice and see what I could do for even
up scales in.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Terms of finding a legal advice for this sort of stuff.
You are there specific I mean, you guys are trustees
more than.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yes, yes, so I would I would recommend that you
would go to a good lawyer that understands trust law.
Not all lawyers, you know, work in the spere. So
I definitely find a decent lawyer that works in the
sphere of trust law if you and.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
If people are looking at setting if people are looking
at setting up a trust, I mean, would they start
Could they start with the New Zealand Family Trust Services?
Speaker 3 (38:33):
You guys, yeah, before, and we don't everybody that crosses
our pathway, we don't say yes absolutely you should set
up a trust. We want to know the reasons why
and we want to want to see that that's a
sensible course of action for an individual to do, because
as I said before, it's not a five minute exercise
and you do it. Once it's set up, you do
have to actually keep the compliance up. So I want
(38:53):
to make sure that it's going to serve the person
for why it's being set up, for it's being set up.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Gosh, we've only scratched the surface, really now I realized.
But of course your book's going to be out at
some later on this year or early next year Trusts
one two three.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
It will be in the bookshop, so I think in
the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Next couple of weeks, next couple of week week go
Trusts one two three. Hey Janets, thanks so much for
your time. Time flies when you're having fun, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, well done.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
We're welcome and we'll be back same time next week.
You can check out the podcast. Look for the Weekend
Collective on the News Talks website or we podcast thanks
to my producer, Tyra Roberts, and I'll look forward to
your company again, same time next week. Sunday at six
is next Evergrade Evening.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverage. This
is the Weekend Collective. By the way, if you missed her,
the conversation with Greg Pain about gadget's quite fascinating actually
because I thought that the purest form of exercise without
a gadget. But I almost feel I need to go
shopping now. But you can check any of the previous
hours that any of the hours you've missed on the
show by looking for our podcast. Just look for the
(00:31):
Weekend Collective on iHeartRadio or wherever you podcasts, and you
can even go to the News Talk ZB website. But
now it has time for smart money. And we've been
sort of looking at doing this for a while, but
the issue of trusts often they've come up, and I've
sort of tried to rely on my very distant memory
on trust law, which is pretty pretty pathetic. So if
(00:52):
you've got any questions on trusts, this is the hour
to give us a call. And joining me is She
is the managing director of the New Zealand Family Trust
Services and I've been trying to pronounce her name and
all sorts of exotic ways and I got close. But
Janet Zukoa, Hello, how.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Are you hello there?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, it's because it's your name is spelled z u
ccoa and I was sure it had to be a
shower or something in there. But anyways, Zaka, So you're
managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services. What is
that organization?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Ah? Well, that organization is really New Zealand as Trustee
of Choice, so it acts as an independent trustee for
many trusts in New Zealand and it carries out all
of the administration compliance work that we have to do
now for trusts.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
And how did you Okay, I'm guessing being the managing director,
you've been at the game a little while. How did
you get into trust work in the first place?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Well, if I if I tell you how many years
I've been out, no, we wade away, but we won't
be doing that but definitely definitely for for several decades.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, So what made you get interested in the trust
side of things?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well, I was a little like you. I liked equity
at law school. I enjoyed equity and I do believe
in really protecting wealth and not just for the sake
of building up assets. But when you have assets, you
have choices and options, and when you satisfied your base
level of living, you can help others if you've got assets.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and actually, when you mean protecting wealth, it's not
about protecting huge wealth necessarily. It's just any anything you've accumulated,
is it.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, that's right. People think that you've got to be
ultra wealthy to have trust, but that's not the case
in New Zealand. Our spirit of entrepreneurship is well and
surely alive. I mean New Zealand has made up of
small and medium sized companies. They dot our landscape. And
when you're in business, that comes with a risk. And
so people that have built, you know, just to simply
(02:51):
fail in the home, they don't want to put that
on the line, and putting it in a trust can
help protect.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That because there are people who would see if you
are hired, not hiding, of course, but there an ethical
dimension to trusts because there will always be a headline
somewhere where someone has done some dodgy dealings, but most
of their wealth has tied up in a family trust,
which means that people who maybe have felt they've been
hard done by can't get at it is there. I
(03:19):
guess it doesn't mean matter, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Deep, devious, dishonest, there's all the words that come to mind,
aren't they with when you're looking at trusts, And I
think that's care of the likes of TV and books
and Panama papers. But in New Zealand, in New Zealand
in general, in Zealand in general, we have honest, hard
working kiwis that are just trying to get ahead and
(03:42):
protect what, protect what they've built up, and trusts to
use as a great device for that in relation to assets,
but not just against creditor claims, You've got relationship claims too.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Actually, of course people if you are well. He's an
example I guess would be if you were in another relationship,
you've got children from your previous relationship and you don't
want to relationship where you find that suddenly half your
assets are gone to this new and you want to
protect the assets for your kids.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Well, So a lot of people are entering into even
first relationships later on in life and they've built their
careers and they've got some wealth behind them. Then you've
got the second second types of relationships where they've been
through a divorce or or a split on a de
facto and they want to bring you know, they're going
to bring assets with them to that relationship and they're
(04:31):
happy to share what they've built up with that new person,
but they want to ring fence the assets that they
bring into the relationship for themselves and their and their children.
And trust along with a good property relationship agreement and
helps that.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Do you actually do you need both? When you so,
if you had you, if you had a family, if
you had a trust to protect your assets. You're in
a new relationship, do you need the property agreement or
does your trust do all that for you?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well? I don't. I don't necessarily think that a trust
solely will do the job. Because we've got New Zealand
courts can see through trusts and they can you know
that they can make judgments to break trusts if they
if they think that that's necessary.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And when you say see through, the common understanding is
see through as I know what you're doing here. But
when you say c through, you mean like look through
in terms of they can say I don't care what
wall you've set up here, I'm knocking it down.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, I'm knocking down I'm going to come through and
take the assets, and I'm going to divide the assets
in an appropriate way that they that they feel is
just so properly relationship agreements. I think every lawyer would
say properly relationship agreement as a keystone to protecting health
in the first instance. And then a trust or two helps.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, so who so who needs No I'm trying to put,
at what stage do you think people should consider having
a trust? Because and how many trusts are there actually
in New Zealand you consider we've got a population of
five million people.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
We don't actually have a register of trusts in New Zealand.
We do, of course when the government does you know,
statistics every sort of is it three years? That is statistics?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The census is every five years?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Five years? Okay, okay, maybe every five years then.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Four I have to google that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, whenever they do that. Whenever they do that that activity,
trusts do come up there. Yeah, but they and so
so you do see trusts and numbers like three hundred thousand,
five hundred thousand all banded around. But we don't actually
have a register in New Zealand of trusts. It's been
mooted every now and again you hear some grumbles about it,
(06:33):
but hasn't come out yet, so we don't know the
exact number.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Are the what are the biggest mistakes? By the way,
it is every five years the census, my producers, just
right now? What are the Can you set up your
own trust? Can you?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Literally it would be very difficult to set up your
own trusts and unwise yeah, and definitely imprudent. Yeah, you
want to want a lawyer to set up a trust,
someone who actually understands the law and knows what they're doing.
Because trust have longevity, I mean under around you and
you act the trusts at twenty nineteen, one hundred and
twenty five years those trusts live now. Of course you
(07:08):
can bring them for which you can invest them earlier
than that. But trusts are for a long duration. They're
not just for today and next year.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So how is there a limit to how long a
trust can last?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
It used to be eighty years, now it's one hundred
and twenty five.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
How do they come up with that number?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Don't know, you'd have to ask the Low Commission that.
But if you think it through, it does make sense
because you would have this generation the parents say, and
then the children, yeah, and then maybe the grand children
and then the grand children.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Depending on how late they have.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Absolutely, so you can see that a trust could be
for three or more generations, and that would that's I
suppose what they were thinking about in the back of
their minds when they chose one hundred and twenty five years.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So legally, when you set up a trust, the assets
I'm trying to remember everything and I'll get it wrong,
but they belong that the trustees actually become the legal
owners of whatever you put in the trust.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, so have we have some positions in the trust
and well, so first off, the people that say up
the trust, they're called the settlers, and then you have
people that appoint trustees and the tire trustees and they're
called the appointurs. And then we have the trustees. They're
the people the charge was managing the assets for the
(08:20):
benefit of the beneficiaries, and they're the people that benefit
from the trust. So I always I liken it in
my mind too. I don't know a bit like a
cargo ship. You've got you've got the captain of the ship, okay,
and then you've got all the passengers, and then you've
got all the assets. The cargo is sitting in the
cargo holt.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I think, what's the rules around who can be a trust?
And if you are trying to protect your own assets
for you and your family, how does it work with
you establishing a trust where you are the beneficiary?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, you went all those hats, aren't you. You're like
the settler, you're setting it up. You're the appointeror who
has the ability to hire and fire trustees. You're the
trustee who's meant to be looking after the assets, and
then you're one of the beneficiaries and you can't. That
doesn't look it, does it? Yeah? I know, and it
is possible, and in fact it does happen. That is
how most of our discretionary family trusts are set up
(09:11):
in New Zealand. And then we run into all sorts
of complications there because there are rules about self benefiting
and being prudent too, making the right decisions for the beneficiaries.
And I suppose if you're challenged, it's quite hard to say, well,
I've made a complete independent decision. I haven't thought about
haven't thought about myself at all. When you're in that
position where you're holding all of the roles. And that's
(09:34):
one of the reasons why independent trustees are are put
into a trust arrangement because they bring some independence to
some decision making.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Does that mean if you are a trustee and a beneficiary,
but they are also a couple of independent trustees, does
that mean you might not be part of that decision
or you would still just say, look, I've been part
of a decision, but I'd supported by my independent trustees
or something.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Well, at lawd decision making is unanimous unless unless the
trustees says otherwise, so they would always be part of
the decision making. But you would like to think that
the dependent trustee is well qualified and able to be
smart enough to know what's best for the beneficiaries.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So that's what you guys do. Is not New Zealand
Family Trust Services, So you provide trustees.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, first off, we will be an independent trustee for
people's trusts. And you know, under the under the New
Trust Act and and different pieces of legislation like for example,
the Amendments to the Tax Administration Act and the Income
Tax Act, trust trustees can really be held to high
high standards of behavior. They can be really liable, can
(10:43):
be real libil.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
If you're a trustee for a trust that has not
followed its obligations through then Bengo, you're in the gun,
aren't you.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, absolutely real liability and in that your assets could
be on the line. So independent trustees they're harder to
find these days, and we have we've taken the position
where we want to be independent trustees of clients trusts.
However we do do the job right, we will make
the trust, we'll ensure that it will be compliant. We
(11:12):
know what I call settlers censure behavior where setlers just
want to do whatever they want to do and and
you know they're just going to have their way.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well that's I mean, that's ideally what you'd want anyway,
if you're if you're if you are a bona fide
a news person who's got some wealth that you want
to protect and you want to look after it for
your descendants. You don't want to be left to your
own devices. You want someone like you, guys, because otherwise
the courts are going to look through your trust before
you know it and puffit's all gone.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Well they are music to my years.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
But it's what's music, It's what I just said.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, exactly, because it's quite surprising. It's quite clients are
comments like, no, they're my assets. Some under us it's like, well, actually,
hang on a minute, they belong to the trust, they're
not your assets.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
In fact, hell, is that quite common that people think
I'm going to get a trust and they come in
and you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have
to have one of those conversations because this is not
about hiding stuff away and just doing what you want
and avoid it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, it's called settler centric behavior, and there's been a
lot of it that's gone on. And of course that's
happened in the past because there hasn't really been a
lot of scrutiny on trustees. But now under that new
piece of that new piece of legislation, trustees are subject
to high levels of scrutiny. Beneficiaries can hold them to
(12:28):
account much more easily than what they've ever done before.
And so you'll find a lot of independent trustees who
have been fairly passive, who haven't been who haven't wanted
to or haven't demanded to look at balance sheets every
year and sit down and hold annual trusting meetings, who
haven't don all of that they want to actually get
out of the job, out of the role, and so
(12:50):
trust to look around for an independent trustee. And I
guess that's where we come in. Our company comes in.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Because obviously, if you've got let's say you've got a
significant level of wealth, like many millions of dollars, then
that level of the level of asset sort of wealth,
you'd be able to have trustees where you obviously there's
time is money, and you could have a more complex
trust where you would expect the the the trustees in
(13:16):
your role to be hands on a lot of the time,
whereas for many people they would just want a fairly
simple arrangement where the trustee I mean, where am I going?
Where am I going with? Yes?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Where you're going with that is like, well, if it's
just if the if the trust just holds the home
and maybe a family badge, Yeah, and then they have
an independent trustee sitting alongside them. Mister and missus Smith
are the independent trustee sitting alongside them. That's going to
involve lots of costs. That's probably where you're going, mate.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I'm asking how you can avoid it being something where
it's you've got someone who's on the on the clock,
you know, several months.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Of the year, Well it would be it'd be everybother
the year because of independent trustees. Trustees, it's there all
the time, but they only they probably only access them
in a situation where there's pacificst that's like the family
home and a back probably only access them a couple
of times the year. And I don't think there is
any way to avoid the cast good professional trustees chart.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
No.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I guess what I mean is there would be trusts
where the job of the trustee is going to be
more complex and more expensive. Whereas if you've got a
family batch and the family home and you shove it
in a trust. Yes, intuitively, that tells me that you're
not really going to have a huge amount of trust expenses,
would you, I don't know how.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Well you would. You still need to pay for the
independent trustee to be there, and we do take we
take insurance policies that a fair whack. We still need
to spend time meeting the trustees and considering the beneficiaries
and reviewing the assets. So you've still got to have
an annual trustee meeting. You know, you still got to
have your eye over those trust assets. The law doesn't
(14:49):
distinguish between assets that are only worth I don't know,
half a million tire assets worth gazillions of dollars. It's
the law, is the law?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah? Yeah, okay. Look, if you've got any questions on
trusts and you're or you're thinking maybe do I need one?
And now you're listening to this and you're thinking, you've
got a small business and with the way things are,
maybe you need to protect some assets. Any questions you've got,
will have a crack at it. Well, I won't have
a crack at answering them, Janet will. And by the way,
(15:17):
you have you've given me a copy of the You've
written a book which actually is not out yet, Janet,
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
No, Well, it's nationwide book distributors. They have got that
book now and they will be visiting I would think
most of the bookshops in New Zealand in the next
in the next month or so. I did have a
call from from a chain of bookshops last week who'd
heard that the book was available, and I just pushed
them to nationwide book distributors, who will good on movies.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And it's called trusts one two three. But you can't
quite get it yet. Soon okay, I eight hundred eighty
ten eighty will take your texts as well. But what
any questions you've got around protecting your assets and trusts?
Then we'd love to hear from you on I eight
one hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine two nine two.
It's twenty three past five News Talk zed B. It's
welcome back to the show. This is the weekend collective
(16:06):
Smart Money and we're doing a bit of a special
talking about trust. If you've got any questions, we'd love
to hear from you on eight hundred and eighty ten
and eighty even if you are the beneficiary of a
trust or you want to know if there's some way
you can actually get your hands on. Actually my guest
is Janet Zukoa and she is the managing director of
New Zealand Family Trust Services. Janet, if you are a trustee,
(16:30):
say there's a couple of you and you are beneficiaries
of a trust, you can you if you both agree,
you can just get you can? Can you dissolve the
trust if you are the only beneficiaries? How on a second, sorry,
I'll just set your microphone. They're sorry about that.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
First, or if you would have to be a beneficiary,
So that's really important, and the beneficiaries have to be
certain everybody. We have to know who all the beneficiaries are.
So if it was certain that it was just the
two of you as beneficiary.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or three or four but whoever, well, if.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It's really certain who the beneficiaries are and the classes
are closed it's just them, it's not future children or grandchildren,
that's sort of thing, then yes, they can all mind
together and they can agree to one the trust to
an end.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Because the example would be, I guess and your parents
or your grandparents have set up a trust and there's
a maybe there's just there's three or four grandchildren, and
everyone would think that you have to sort of just
receive and come from the trust according to the terms
of it. But if you're all together and you go,
hang on a minute, do we all want to just
(17:35):
get hold of the assets and sell it and split
them up? You can as long as you all agree.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You've got to all agree. But a lot of the
time when a trust is brought to an end, the
assets moved from trust to trust. So let's say it's
two beneficiaries and the parents have died, and the two
beneficiaries now want the assets. The assets can be divided
equally and then to a new trust set up, and
then they move from trust to trust for the beneficiaries.
(18:03):
And you might do that because the beneficial have lists
of their own.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Oh so they just want to have their own They
want to split it up, but they're like, look, I
still want to protect my assets absolutely, and so is
that quite common?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Very common? And so they may have business with themselves,
they have a relationship risk.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
How would it work? Say, actually, I'm just coming out
with some scenarios here to if say someone set up
a trust and let's say grandma and granddad and grandma
and granddad have passed on, and the trust is for
the kids, and ultimately when those kids are gone, their grandchildren.
(18:42):
If for the time being the trust is just in
the favor of the first generation, do they do all
the grandchildren have to agree at all? Or can the
you know, I forget you know how things get passed
down through the generation. So those, once those potential beneficiaries
are alive, they all have to agree. Whether they be
the first generation or the second generation or the third
(19:04):
they've all got.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
To agree absolutely, and there could also be unborn beneficiaries.
And so that's where it gets really what.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
If someone's pregnant you mean, or just imaginary, but.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
They haven't they don't exist yet, Okay, So it might
be for for it might be like a bloodline trust,
and so there might be unborn beneficiaries that haven't been
born yet.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So you can't get rid of that trust.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, at that point you can result to the courts,
because there is sections in the new Trust Act which
allow the courts to to have a look at that
sort of thing and bring the trust to an end.
But it is a result back to.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
The court that's fascinating this area of law because the
thing about law, this area of law, and we have
talked about it in the break, is while there is
legislation now that the government has drafted and passed, the
law of trust goes back. I mean how many.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
How far people think that it goes back to the
Crusades times, but an actual factor goes much further back.
By the late by the late Roman Republic period, we
had trusts that we're operating well at least that a
trust type of arrangement that was reflected in the laws
of succession So trusts are thousands of years old and
(20:11):
I can't see them. Every now and again you get
a murmur or maybe they're going to get rid of trust?
How much?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
How much has the nature of trust change? But with
the legislation, are they still essentially the same?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Well, I think at their base level they are the same.
But trust. That's one of the wonderful reasons of trust.
One of the why trusts have endured for so long,
because they respond to our varying and different socio economic
conditions and our norms and our values.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I can hear cynical people who listen to talk about
going that's because it's a great way to hide. Well,
you know, we'll protect or protect wealth, depending which way
you want to look at it. Let's take some calls. Colin,
good afternoon, Yeah, good afternoon.
Speaker 6 (20:53):
Just regarding I guess tax and I understand that the
tax rate's going to be up to thirty nine percent
for all trusts. So would that mean basically, you're going
to be greater burden of tax putting your assets into
a trust compared to if you didn't, for.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Example, Well, that that is true. The trust the new
trustee taxad is thirty nine percent and that that changed
on the first of April twenty twenty four. Prior to
that worth thirty three percent. And of course, because our
individual highest marginal tax rate was thirty nine percent, you
did see money moving from companies, for example, at twenty
(21:36):
eight percent into you know, moving around, so that you've
got good benefits of a tax. The benefits are still
there now despite the alignment with the individual top marginal
tax rate. And I'll give you an example. Let's say
that a trust does receive dividend income from a company
and the trustees they decide that they're not going to
(21:57):
retain that income, they're going to actually pay it out
to beneficiaries. Well, when the beneficiaries receive the income they've got,
they've got declared that a course in their personal tax return,
and then they pay tax at their personal martinal tax rate.
And that could indeed be lower than thirty nine percent.
So there are some benefits there, possibly, possibly, But nobody
(22:17):
would set up a trust these days for a tax benefit. First,
it would be illegal anyway, the tax benefits are merely incidental, okay.
And then really the costs of running a trust. You
we've did mention that before on the on the cost
of running a trust. You know, they don't they don't
have to be exorbitant, but that is going to cost
(22:37):
you something. So people don't run around trying to save
three or four cents when they've got to incur the costs.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Any follow up their Colin, are you looking at getting
a trust or you've got one?
Speaker 6 (22:50):
I've had one for a few years, and yeah, so
I just I probably need to talk to my accounts
a bit more about it as well. But you know,
I'm currently paying on my normal salury thirty nine percent
top rates.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
But with.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Then I'm not earning them, will I'd be paying thirty
nine percent on the trust income to myself, even though
it might not be that much money.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Well, I think I think good account at this experience
with trusts, and maybe companies they can they can often
help you with that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Okay, okay, thanks Colin. Does that get my head around this?
If you've got assets, so if you it's not really
a part of it is really that relevant what the
tax top tax rate is. If your personal tax rates
thirty nine percent, if you keep those assets in there,
any income, you're going to be paying thirty nine percent anyway,
So who cares? If you're sticking in a trust, have
(23:51):
I got that rights?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, that would be true. But trusts are often used
in conjunction with companies. So companies pay dividends and they
may pay a dividend through to a trust. And so
of course at that point you're paying t twenty eight
percent company tax rate. To pay a dividend out, you've
got to pay that thirty three percent. So there's got
to be you know, you've got to pay an extra
(24:15):
top upper tax I suppose of five percent, and then
it moves into the trust and you would think, do
we have to do we now have to top it
up again to the thirty nine percent, But that depends
on whether the trust is retained the income or not.
It depends on whether the recipient's got high tax rate
as well. It might have low tax rates.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So okay, we've got lots of text. Let's see how
we can get into these questions. What's the difference between
a trust and a will?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Ah? Well, wills deal with personal assets of individuals, like
I don't know, jewelry and cars, and trusts tend to
they still hold assets. But really, when you're looking at
a trust, it's a device for holding assets for a
long time. The will doesn't really come near it. Usually
you have what's called a memorandum of bushes rather than
(25:02):
a will, which sets out what needs to happen when
the person dies.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Can I will establish a trust?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yes it can, Yeah, you can. You can establish a
trust via a will.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But in general, and the person who actually administers the
will I acco't reanmyber, the executive. The executives they are
acting in a sort of position as a trustee for
the time temporarily.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Well, they are there. They're overseeing the personal distribution of
the assets and accordance with the will instructions.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
How do you say set up a trust as parents
who want their children to benefit from it, but not
any partners of children if their relationships break down.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You just make sure that the children are named as
specifically yes, efectly. Yeah. And also when when you do
pay out the assets to the children, you would, you know,
you would make sure you've got the right documentation around that.
You might also do that via a trust as well.
A lot of parents these days pay pay deposits, you know,
(25:55):
for children to get them into houses and that sort
of thing. You need to make sure that there's plenty
of documentation around that if it's coming via the trust.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Okay, we've got the calls rolling in now it would hapen.
And since we get into these texts, one more text,
then we'll get into the cause. I think I almost
can answer have a crack at answering this myself, but
I'll hand it to you. Here we go. Hi, guys,
I'm looking at I'm looking at going through a divorce.
I'm looking at going through a divorce. You're anticipating a divorce? Okay,
I have moved most of my assets into a trust.
(26:23):
Will this protect them for the divorce? I had these
assets before meeting my wife, but I don't have a prenup.
I would say that he's in trouble.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
That's from being I would say they definitely go go
talk to a lawyer. That's for sure. Moving assets into
a trust to try and avoid sharing them on a
relationship that's probably not going to.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
The court's going to look through that doesn't think they're
good at Yeah, And even if the assets are in trust,
if a person's done significant work on an asset then
that's held in the trust, then the courts would likely
still award some benefit to that person.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Actually probably the answer is in matrimonial property law, really,
isn't it, Because if you have kept those assets completely
separate and they've had nothing to do there with a relationship,
then talk to a lawyer and may be able to
just that's part of the argument. But it's not going
to be argument free, is it.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, it's not going to be argument free. So I'll
give you an example. Let's say that the trust owned
the house well before this gentleman met his newest and dewiest,
and then the newest and dewest moves into the house
and she does substantial work on the house, maybe puts
money into the house into renovations. Then I don't think
on the dissolution he's going to be able to say
(27:35):
it's all mine. Okay, I think I think somewhere along
the line.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It's intermingled, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, Yeah, it's into vangled and a lawyer and a
judge is going to say, you know, Purney up in
saying that I'm not I'm not giving I'm certainly not
giving financial.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No, No, that's important we do that. Do that have
that disclaimer. There's no specific advice, but where you know
you've yeah, you need to get some good advice on that.
But it's easy. I can just remember from my legal
days that if you keep your assets separate, if you've
got a separate bank account, never used by the relationship
and it sits there separately, you've got a better chance
that you're going to keep it. Probably should have set
(28:12):
up the trust before the relationship though.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
That's helpful.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, that's helpful. Right, We're going to take some calls.
In just a moment. It is twenty two minutes to
six News Talks. There'd be. My guest is Janet Zuchoa.
She is the managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Answering your questions, give us a call back in a
mow and welcome back to News Talks. Be gosh, time
(28:35):
flies when you're talking about this stuff. We're talking about trusts.
My guest is Janet Zucchoa. She's managing director of New
Zealand Family Trust Services. And let's get into the calls now.
We're going to have to move as quickly as we
can because time is upon us.
Speaker 7 (28:48):
Ron.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Hello, Hi, here you doing good things?
Speaker 7 (28:52):
What good couple of couple of quick questions. A lot
of these older family trusts have been set up where
the trustees have full discretion of how the trust is
managed and all the rest of it. As they view
a beneficiary to be a discritionary beneficiary, are they able
to withhold information about the trust and not provide it
(29:15):
to that beneficiary upon request?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Ah, you're moving now into the disclosure obligations under the
new Trust Act. So that's an interesting point in itself.
You used to be under the old Act. That used
to be that, you know, people didn't actually necessarily know
that they were beneficiary. So there's a duty where you know,
you can hold trustees to account, but to hold a
trustee to an account, you've got to at least know
(29:37):
that you're beneficiary, haven't you in the first instance.
Speaker 8 (29:39):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yes, And so now under the new Trust Act there's
sections there which layout that disclosure to be made to
beneficiaries and factors to be taken into accounts. So I
think that most trustees that I see do in detail
tell people that they are beneficiaries. But there are provisions
also under that Act not to disclose to beneficiaries they
(30:05):
are indeed beneficiaries, and not to disclose information.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
What about the basic information that they're required to you
know how they're mandated by that new Act.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, so, well, it's not necessarily strict mandate. There are
there is a provision under the Act where you can
you can with hold information and not disclose. So as
long as long as the act provisions are followed, then
I guess.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hey, did you mention the expression of discretionary beneficiary? Run
is that what's a discretionary beneficiary.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Discretionary beneficiaries is where where they are indeed beneficiary, but
they are not entitled to anything as of right, so
the trustees and trustees have to consider them. Okay, that's
what they are entitled to be, is considered, but benefiting
is discretionary and at the discretion of the trustees.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
It sounds like a family trust where Dad's set up
a trust and he and dad's trustee and decides whether
that's what he's going to give each.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Child absolutely, whereas fixed beneficiaries fex beneficiaries are actually in
the trusteed depending upon terms of the trusteed, of course,
but fixed manifesturies will be entitled to capital and income,
and that's that's usually stated for kids.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Can be so complicated. I love the idea of secret
trust where you can have a secret trust that none
of the beneficiaries know that they're and it's.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Like that was that was the old time with it not.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Now old days. Okay, hey, thanks for you call Ron Lance.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Hello, yeah, Hi. So my question is I'm thirty five
years old and I've got a free freehold house and
if I was to ever get in a relationship, it's
not currently in a trust. But would it be worth
putting in a trust purely for the purposes of protecting
it in any possible future relationships?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Definitely, So you don't really want to You don't want
the nearest and dearest to come in and it's all
fine while we're playing in the sandpit happily. But when
that done, when you know, when we're starting to fight
over the bucket and spade, then that's where things can
get kind of nasty. So trust will work with them
plenty of time behind them. So if you're going to
(32:09):
protect or try to protect your home, you want to
do that well in advance of a relationship. So yes, indeed,
talk to a lawyer put that. I would recommend that
it would be put into a trust. But at the
same time, when you are entering into a serious relationship,
you do need to think about a property relationship agreement,
and a good lawyer will be able to guide you
(32:30):
on that.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Sure, Yeah, because during the ownership I think like, yeah,
I joined income would be paying for rates and insurance
and and some some of the ongoing expenses holding the house,
even though and so's and so.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
That's where you where you get into murky territory, which
is why the properly relationship is the agreement is really important.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, so a couple of things there. Yeah. Actually, it's
the purpose of setting up the trust there is quite
a relevant one to whether the court's going to look
through it, isn't it. So what's what's an example of
a legitimate purpose? It's that a legitimate purpose. I'm about
to get into a new relationship. We're going to bang
my house and a trust so my if it doesn't
work out, they can't get the hands on it.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
That's not quite a legitimate I mean, that's that's illegitimate
or no, No, that would be quite legitimate because you
wanted to try try and protect protect the house.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
As opposed to I'm setting up a new business and
I'm going to go into debt a lot, and I'm
going to save the family house. That sounds dodgier.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
No, well, you're trying to protect the house there. But
what wouldn't what probably wouldn't be tolerated, is you've been
in a relationship for five years with your nearest and
dearest and as that last last gentleman said, you know,
joint income is going towards the outgoings of the house,
the mortgage, the rates, the insurance, is that sort of thing,
and you decide, oh, well, I think that I'll put
(33:47):
this into a trust so that when I when I
leave my wife or my wife lives at the husband,
then it's all going to be mine. I mean, you're
in the relationship and that's not going to be tolerated,
I doubt by the courts.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Okay, right, let's take another court bill.
Speaker 9 (34:03):
Hello, hello, I am A quick question for a discretionary trust.
Speaker 8 (34:09):
Can the trustees.
Speaker 9 (34:11):
Decide to use the the assets of their trust or
the money and their trust a charity that doesn't benefit
the beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
It would depend upon the terms of the trusteed, so
you would need to look there.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So that how and you're talking about there's a trust,
there are some discretionary beneficiaries, but the person who set
up the trust or the trustees also want to give
some money to a charity which gives no benefit to anyone,
but that charity beneficiaries. That God gets complicated, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Well, the settler I wanted that the settler might have
wanted that to happen, and so the deed of trust
he may actually provide for the trustees to have that
power to put money into charities.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Which tells me that a trust is much more flexible
than people might imagine. Then, depending on the terms of it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Very flexible device. That's one of the reasons why they've
endured for so long.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Any other follow up there, Billy there, Yes, it's for
some context.
Speaker 8 (35:07):
It's a wide ranging Indeed, it does have the word
charity in it. The main trustee has passed away, the
leftover trustees have got They say a verbal that this
person wants to set up a trust set up a
charity at some stage. I think it doesn't necessarily mean
(35:30):
family trust to set up a charity, but maybe personal.
So the independent trustees have decided that they will use money.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Okay, sounds sounds like some good advices needed via lawyer
on that.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Gosh, So if you can set up, so people can
basically can set up a trust where they can still
sort of enjoy the assets, et cetera. There are some
discretionary beneficiaries, but you can still sort of do whatever
you want with the assets and the trust up to
a point if you've journ it up.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
So trustees have to use the assets for the benefit
of the beneficiaries.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
And also well that one.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Well, yes, that's actually not using it for that. It
sounds like it's not using the money for the benefit
of the beneficiaries. But the settler may also have wanted
the trustees to be able to use money for charitable
purposes to.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Okay, are is there a limit to other purposes that
are not in favor of the beneficiaries? So, for instance,
that sounds like all charitable purpose sounds like something their
trustees might be able to do. But can they do
other things that are not in favor of the beneficiaries?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Deep question question.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
With about two minutes to answer it about that We'll
come back with some more texts in just a moment.
It's ten to Sex News Talks. I'd be and welcome
back to the show. This is the weekend collector Smart Money.
My guest is Janet Zuchoa, that's x u c coo
A just for because it is a it's a new
one for me, Janet, Look, we've got one. I've selected
(37:07):
one text because we've only a couple of minutes. Just
a quick question. A trust house now for sale as
one of two beneficiaries, Can the trust be dissolved if
you're not happy with how trustees are dividing the sale all?
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Well? Again, for a question like that, there's there's lots
of angles on that I would urge in the first
instance to sit down and have a sensible conversation with
the trustees and with the other beneficiaries. Couldn't be dissolved?
I doubt very much. It could be dissolved just on
one beneficiary, say so.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It sounds like maybe one's getting more than the other.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
One, not without the course to the courts. But if
it's discretionary, well, trustees may may have the discretion on
how they deal with those cell proceeds. I wouldn't. If
I was a beneficiary and I was missing out on
something like that, then I'd definitely get a little bit
of advice and see what I could do for even
up scales in.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Terms of finding a legal advice for this sort of stuff.
You are there specific I mean, you guys are trustees
more than.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yes, yes, so I would I would recommend that you
would go to a good lawyer that understands trust law.
Not all lawyers, you know, work in the spere. So
I definitely find a decent lawyer that works in the
sphere of trust law if you and.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
If people are looking at setting if people are looking
at setting up a trust, I mean, would they start
Could they start with the New Zealand Family Trust Services?
Speaker 3 (38:33):
You guys, yeah, before, and we don't everybody that crosses
our pathway, we don't say yes absolutely you should set
up a trust. We want to know the reasons why
and we want to want to see that that's a
sensible course of action for an individual to do, because
as I said before, it's not a five minute exercise
and you do it. Once it's set up, you do
have to actually keep the compliance up. So I want
(38:53):
to make sure that it's going to serve the person
for why it's being set up, for it's being set up.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Gosh, we've only scratched the surface, really now I realized.
But of course your book's going to be out at
some later on this year or early next year Trusts
one two three.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
It will be in the bookshop, so I think in
the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Next couple of weeks, next couple of week week go
Trusts one two three. Hey Janets, thanks so much for
your time. Time flies when you're having fun, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, well done.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
We're welcome and we'll be back same time next week.
You can check out the podcast. Look for the Weekend
Collective on the News Talks website or we podcast thanks
to my producer, Tyra Roberts, and I'll look forward to
your company again, same time next week. Sunday at six
is next Evergrade Evening.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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