A Look At Nuggets/Thunder & Cavs/Pacers - Featuring Dan Favale

Mort & Dan discuss the Pacers/Cavs & Nuggets/Thunder series, in which both are flabbergasted at where we are.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
What is up, Fellowsiko's I am Dana Valley coming at
you with Mort Jensen of the NBA Podcast Fame, of
Yahoo Sports Fame, and of Forbes's fame, as well as,
of course OnlyFans celebrity. We're here to talk about two
NBA playoff series. Grant and I will have more on
Rockets excuse me sorry, Rockets fans, Timberwolves versus Warriors, as

(00:28):
well as Nicks versus Celtics. We'll have that up for
you on Wednesday. But as we go into this Tuesday,
where we have some critical games for everybody involved, we're
going to talk about the Calves versus the Pacers and
the Nuggets versus the Thunder. Let's begin. We're actually first more,
how the heck are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Doing well? Doing well? As a fat person. I shouldn't
be saying this, but I'm very happy because I just
had cake.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
First of all, you're not fat, give yourself more credit,
but I did. I can confirm that you did just
have cake because when we popped on you said I'm
eating cake, and then you proceeded to eat cake.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
So I did congrest I did unapologetically.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Really, yes, it's the only way to eat Cake, so
kudos to you. Let's dive in here. Calves versus Pacers
more playing out exactly like I did not expect, as
someone who picked Calves in five, who has said very
nice things about the Pacers, but I thought that highly
of the Calves. They now find themselves down three to one.

(01:27):
As we record this before I throw it to you,
Don Mitchell did say he didn't play in the second
half of Game four. The Calves are calling it an
ankle injury. People are wondering if had anything to do
with the calf that was bothering him. Initially he called
it an ankle injury. After the game, he did say
that he would see everybody on Tuesday, indicating that he
would play. We have not had the results yet as
we record this of the MRI that we know he's

(01:49):
going to receive, so that is looming over everything, of course,
as is the Darius Garland big toe injury. Tari's Halburton
has been battling a wrist injury. The series has been
pretty physical on the Calves are kind of sort of
complaining about it. Where are you just at with this
Calves Pacers series?

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Oh man, Look, let's start with the Calves This was
a team that did everything right in course in the
over the course of the regular shoots and the in
terms of like workloads, like Keny Atkinson went in and said, look,
we're not going to have these guys play you know
New York Nicks minutes. These guys are are going to
play in there in the late twenties, early thirties of

(02:28):
minutes to keep them fresh, to keep them healthy. But look,
the injury bug has just hit them at the worst
opportune time. I know there are people out there who
are asking, well, what should the Calves do if they're
getting bounced in the second round major changes ahead, Like no, no,
this this is like an injury thing. Like I'm not
going to sit here and say that they like Surety

(02:51):
Fire Lee would have won this series if they'd been healthy.
Like I'm not going to sit here and say that,
because the Pacers have been incredible and they deserve every
ounce of credit going their way. But like, let's not
pretend as if not having Darius Garland for two games
wasn't going to affect you. Let's not pretend as if
missing DeAndre Hunter and Evan Mopley in a game which

(03:12):
they lost as well isn't going to affect the entire
course of the series. So it's it's just I'm just disappointed.
I'm disappointed on their behalf. I'm disappointed as an observer.
I think this shitty timing of injuries is just, oh,
it's it's a it punched to the gut. So that's

(03:34):
that's what I'm left with with the feeling after these
forced four games.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, and it's I do wonder because there I do
think that this is a series that the Pacers are
like they are winning. This isn't just about the Cows
dealing with injuries, but when you look at some of
the things that have happened, Darius Garland kind of said
this about himself, where he's only two games into his
return from injuries, still kind of figuring out, and specifically
in that Game three, it looked like he was trying

(03:59):
to figure out how to move and that's a game
that they ended up winning. Complaints coming out of Game four.
Did the Cavaliers stay in zone too much before they
adjusted or they not make enough adjustments? I think that's
probably fair criticism, But in the back of my mind,
I'm sort of wondering, well, is that just easier. Is
that easier way to defend now because of the Darius
Garland toe injury and if you were worried before his

(04:20):
ankle injury about Donovan Mitchell's calf, like, is that just
the easier way, like for that to be more of
your base defense. There's also some things in here. I mean,
you're not getting like the Ti Jerome falling off a
cliff hurts you right now. The trickle down effect for
Cleveland is and I've seen a lot of people kind
of bring up like this is why you shouldn't have
traded Kris Lavert. I will maintain I respect the hell

(04:41):
out of what the Cavaliers did by trading for DeAndre Hunter.
That is someone who filled more of a need that
they had at the time. You can't look at this
and say Ti Jerome fell off a cliff, even Mobile
was injured for a minute now, Donovan Mitchell's injured and
Darius Garland is not operating at one hundred percent to
be like they need more creation and ball handling.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
It.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
No, if these guys were healthy, that's not an issue,
and you can't if we would if they didn't have
DeAndre Hunter, would you have felt as good about their
base playoff defense, because we've already seen like you know,
Sam Merril's not gonna be it all the time, so
to and like Dean Wade like how often can how
healthy is he to play? But how many minutes can
you play him when he actually is? Like what can
you max him out? As? So I respect the hell

(05:20):
out of what Cleveland did overall, I think that this
is I want to we have to focus on the
injury thing for a little bit long before getting into
the pacers. But I agree with you that I don't
want to get into a Cavs post mortem short of
them just entering the Giannis Attentacumbo discussion and deciding no,
like this makes more sense to have Giannis and Donovan
Mitchell as sort of the two Let's catch these guys

(05:42):
in Stone and that's our timeline. I don't know why
you would overreact. I know you're getting expensive, but like
that's the entire point of you ducking attacks this past year,
and I do if anything, it's you can just get
frustrated by you said at the top of this. This
feels like a team that did everything right when you
look at the minutes management of its play, the depth
that it hads and like injuries are just kind of

(06:02):
creeping up on them now. The stuff it does feel like,
I will say that they've gotten punked a little bit here.
They had to start of the series. It felt like
they were just shocked at how fast Indiana was playing,
even though we all know. What's one thing that everyone,
the most casual fan basketball fan knows about Indiana that
they play fast, and so the Calves seeming off guard
by that to start the series not good. Some of

(06:23):
the slow starts in this series terrible, and like, you
can't blame that one on injuries in Game four, specifically
when you have your full slate of players available to start.
Is there anything else though, just sort of on the
Cavaliers front, whether it's adjustments or the Donovan Mitchell injury
looms over this. The Calves are done if Donovan Mitchell
is out or at seventy percent instead of one hundred percent.
I think Darius Garland's playmaking is so important, but the

(06:45):
way that Donovan Mitchell can score and just the amount
of defensive attention he can suck in there, you can't
replace that with anybody on this roster right now, right.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well outside of injuries results just a component. They're not
hitting shots. I mean, look, at the end of the day,
that's sort of an important thing in basketball, right right
Tie Jerome hitting fifteen percent from three, major, major issue
or in just twenty seven percent overall. That's not going
to cut it. Obviously, we know Garland is limited, So
twenty five percent from three, forty point nine percent overall,

(07:17):
that's not going to cut it. Even Donovan Mitchell twenty
two percent from three. Yeah, not getting it done on
that end of the floor. DeAndre Hunter as well, forty
three percent from the floor, twenty two percent from three.
It's they're just also missing jump shots. And we can
say that the Pacers, well.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Can I actually interject there for one minute, is that
they're not just missing jump shots, like these are jump
shots that even the ones they're supposed to make. So
in the regular season they shoot forty two percent on
wide open threes. In this series against Indiana, they're shooting
under twenty eight percent on wide open threes. And that's
that I'm not even that's not semi open. Like I

(07:54):
get a little sketchy when it comes to the four
to six feet stuff. If you're dealing with a taller
player with a smaller player. I don't know. If I have
an NBA player four feet away from me, my shots
getting blocked would be my point. So the six plus
feet of room when they're an under twenty eight percent
from the series. So sorry to interject from you there,
but like those are shots that you just say. It's
the same thing with Boston, Like you're almost sort of
waiting and I don't this doesn't necessarily align with the

(08:16):
law of like, oh that like it has to progress
to a mean but you are sort of waiting them
to be like, well, hit the fucking shots that you
hit throughout the regular season.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yep, you're absolutely right. And by the way, kudos to
you for the confidence of believing you would even get
a shot off against an NBA player.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, that's very much like how many points would you
win off Serena Williams and Tennis and someone' say I
get one? No you would, no, you would.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Look, that's the thing people don't seem to recognize when
people say I can get a bucket on the NBA player. Dude,
you can't even get a shot off, Like that's that's
the thing. You can't even you can't even get a
real live holt.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's tempt If they gave me like twelve feet of space,
I feel like I could get a shot off before
they blocked it. Right, Okay, that's now, it's that shot
going in. Is it going to be an air ball?
It's more likely to be an airball, but maybe I
wouldn't get blocked. But that's like, it's the Serena Williams
thing where it's how many points would you win against
Serena Williams And my response would be, well, she double
faulting at all? And if the answer is no, then

(09:10):
the answer zero.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
I'm just wondering which NBA player is gonna give you
twelve feet?

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Who like put? Well, the Bucks like will pull, Like
if brook Lopez on the floor, they play in a
ton of drop, Like maybe that'll that's the team.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Well, they're playing drop because they want to avoid the drive.
I don't think even a bad defensive player they're not
gonna worry, would not be would not really be afraid
of you driving or me driving on them. I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Well, I feel like they spot me twelve feet that
the shell of their defense. All five players should be like,
what's a is there such thing as like a zero
five zone, so like they just have five.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Gosh, like, well that'd be good. No so, but yeah,
like the shooting things obviously, I mean if they regretted
the or not regrets to the means like if they
come back to the norm, then we'll have a series
dand I I truly believe that. But they seem shell shot.

(10:03):
They seem to be like, what the hell just hit us?
Like we're down one to three? How did we get here? Right?
It feels like the start of any like teenage movie movie,
like this is how I got here. You might be
wondering what's happening? But this here's my story. This team
is just they got kicked in the teeth, not once,

(10:26):
not twice, three times, and they're still trying to shake
it off. It does not bote well. And and again
this speaks to the Pacers, and it speaks to your
point about this isn't just injuries. This is the Pacers
actually winning this thing, because yes, they very much are.
They are running, they're taking quick shots, they are moving
the ball, they are attacking the class. They are relentless. Look,

(10:48):
we have to like dedicate at least ten minutes to
that ridiculous like put back by Aaron Smith in was
that game two of the off the missed.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, there's a lane violation, Like, come on, that's okay.
There's never a lane violation other than on that play. Okay,
that's the only lane violation I've ever seen go on
call this year. Want to make clear, all.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Right, what he did was still enormously impressive. That was
That was really one of those oh he's got that
dog in him type of plays where I don't think
anyone really necessarily at least not from a national perspective, thought, oh,
Aaron E. Smith is that guy for us who are
a little bit in the weeds on a lot of
teams here in the NBA. Yeah, we kind of knew

(11:33):
he's that type of dude for him to do that
at that moment though, did not see that coming. They
just keep pushing back. Whenever they you try to put
a fight to the Pacers, they keep finding back and
they come out on top. Is there some level of
shooting luck involved for them? Hard to say, because I
don't think that they're out there going, you know. Two

(11:55):
thousand and one, Vince Carter against Philadelphia knocking down nine
to threes I think it's ball movement, it's open shots.
They're finding open guys that they're making a play for
each other instead of like Isoing, not saying that the
Caves are only Isoing, but they've had to go to
Mitchell Isoing a ton because lack of availability from other players.

(12:17):
So there's just complete team cohesion with the pacers that
we've talked about so many times on this podcast all
throughout the year, and it's showing itself again, which is
just super impressive. So it's tough for me to sit
here as well and just go, ohac or Oral Calves,
you should have beaten these guys like in a sweep,
Like no, no, they were always going to be a

(12:40):
tough team to beat, and turns out a little too
tough there.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
And we've talked a lot about their depth, but their
ability to kind of wield it and make adjustments when
you and I know this is something it's not that
it's new and in vogue, but what does everyone kind
of harp on now just winning the possession battle in
these games and they go out and it's, oh, they
really haven't won the possession battle through these first even
though they hold the series lead, like they haven't just

(13:05):
dominated the possession battle, right, they just go out and
dominate that possession battle. When you look at what did
they take like twenty something more shots than Cleveland in
that game, I believe I'll have to double check that.
So like their ability to just do then a lot
of that comes from, you know, their ability to force turnovers,
and it's they're gonna have players that are picking up
that's and by the way, that's the other part of this.
If you're injured or half hobbled your bat let's just say,

(13:27):
your back court's not at like entirely full strength, and
you have the pacers just deciding to pick you up,
like if it's not ninety four feet like eighty six
feet or some shit. That's that's harrowing too. And like
they're just you know, Rick Carlisle and just the the
personnel's ability to hit those buttons. And then to get
to a point where it's like, look at what Miles
Turner did in game four. Look at what the minutes
that you're able to carve out from Obi Toppin in

(13:49):
some of these stretches. Yeah, that is I think I've
actually posed this to you, and I hate repeating myself,
but I almost wonder if like depth, it might be
the new playoff market, if where if you want it's
not just about it's like limiting your weak points. And
I thought the Calves would have fallen under this bucket,
though maybe they're just so injured at the top to
where it's oh Siakam and Haliburton were this banged up,

(14:11):
they would be running into the same issue. So I
don't I think they could still fall under that umbrella,
but the number of their weak points, and I also
think that that's why, you know, that's part of why
you make the trade for DeAndre Hunters, Like you're trying
to limit your defensive weak points that you could press
at the Calves still like they kind of have some
of those, especially just by virtue of the backcourt being
smaller and now not at full strength. And the Pacers,

(14:32):
I think you could well, like look at some of
their players if you're getting Obie top in minutes, and
we know Benned mcmathrin, who I think everybody who doesn't
play for the Pacers wants to punch in the face
right now, he seems like he's turning into that type
of player. They have some spotty issues there, but it's
they just have a lot of guys where it's no
like you're not gonna go pick on them. And yeah,
Halliburton might be one of them, but if you get
into a matchup of trying to seek out Haliburton every time,

(14:54):
I think the Pacers are good about insulating him to
where that's just not ideal. And then you're kind of
running yourself out of your bit, like you don't want
to fall over in love with targeting these guys. And
by the way, that was from Game four, like kind
of my biggest takeaway was they decided this really hasn't
been a Pascal Siakam offensive series just yet. This is
gonna be the game that it's a Pascal Siakam offensive
game and they're able to do that. And finally, before

(15:16):
I throw it back to you, it's not just about
them playing fast, and I think this is just something
that's been underrated about them even before the Seakam trade,
but definitely since the Siakam trade. They don't need like
if they need to face a set defense, they don't
freaking care, Like they just have the ability and the
weapons to go after especially I mean playoff Andrew Nemhard

(15:37):
on top of adding Siakam alongside Tyre S Halliburton. There's
just so many different ways that they can beat you
at both ends of the floor. And I think we've
kind of seen them for and I know people are
gonna point to, oh, the Pacers are so lucky, Like
the Bucks were injured two years in a row and
now Cleveland's banged up again. There's luck involved in every

(15:58):
single playoff push, even when you're injured. I mean, like
the Celtics are. Let's use the Celtics knicks those first
two games as an example. Boston is just missing a
metric ton of threes that they normally hit. I know
Porzinkis wasn't one hundred percent. Jalen Brown's dealing with Neil
knee stuff. Everyone's dealing with me stuff. At this point.
I think it's an insult to what the Cavaliers did
during the regular season and also an insult to the

(16:19):
Pacers to just say, oh, this is just Darius Garland
and doubt, Dono Mitchell, even mmbily haven't been fully healthy. Yeah,
that's part of it. But the other part of it
is the bigger part, and that's the Pacers have just
they have been. You know, Rick Carlyle laughed when I
guess the cow he was relayed to him that the
cows were talking about how physical the Pacers are playing.
That's kind of like another wrinkle of this team where

(16:41):
it's I have not watched the Pacers for much of
this season and thought, oh, they're just so physical, Like
that's not a team. But the fact that they could
play that way or make another team feel they're playing
that way, maybe that says more about the Cavaliers, is
just like their sort of postseason toughness or how injured
they are there like Indiana being able to kind of
beat up on them in the half court, like even

(17:03):
as someone who considered themselves at least in the know
of the Pacers or a Pacers appreciator, not necessarily something
I would have thought coming into this years like, Oh,
that's that's something they're absolutely gonna do. But it's oh,
coming out of Game four, Jared Allen's face is on
a milk carton and Evan Mobley can seem overmatch with
sometimes the ways that they're what they're doing half court defensively.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, it's look, I mean for them to actually have
that physical scalability is also not on my That was
not on my Bengal card either. Like if you were
to ask me before the season, for example, like how
are the Pacers playing, I would have said they're more
of a nest team than a physical team. Turns out
they're both, you know, they keep reminding me of this

(17:46):
was like the post best era of the Suns. Like
you remember the seven seconds or less offense that they
had then they got shacked. Then they called it seven
seconds or shack. That's one of the best names for
an offense ever. But the Pacers are kind of doing that,
but they don't have a name. It's not like seven
seconds or Halliburton or Siakam or whoever, Like it's just

(18:11):
a combination. It's basically, well, if we don't score within
seven seconds, we just go to a half court and
we execute the hell out of it. And that to
me has been a huge eye opener over the course
of the season, that they're sort of just so stable
that you can't sit there and go, oh, well, there
are only a transition team. They're only good when they run.
They're only good when you know, they force a steal

(18:32):
or whatever. No, no, no, no, no, They when you
lock down and you're like, no, we're gonna guard the
basket for twenty four full seconds, they can still score
on your ass. That makes a huge difference. And they
have so many weapons too, Like Matherin only playing eighteen
minutes per game this series. I know that he got
bounced what was two minutes into that one, one minute

(18:53):
even one or two very early, so that's affected. But
he's a guy who can get to the free throw line.
For example, when they need something, they can tell him,
go get us free FROs, like let's do something here.
When they need spacing elements, oh yeah, they can put
Miles Turner and aaron Ne Smith and Tyrese Halliburton and
Andrew Nemhard or whoever in there in the starting or

(19:15):
in the rotation, and then you have a space out floor.
If you want to go athletic and powerful, well there's
obi Toppin, There's Benedic Mathrine Health, aaron Ne Smith. There
are so many constellations to this roster that just sort
of fits like a wide palette of playing styles. And
I'll be fully honest with you, I did not appreciate

(19:37):
this until like maybe Christmas. I was a little slow
on that because I wasn't short, it was sustainable. I
got thought, all right, that could just be a blip.
But they started winning. I was like, hmm, there's more
to this team than just running. They're actually doing this
like consistently, they're creating looks, they're getting they're getting these
actions in place with set defenses. So the offense is

(20:01):
is there and then they just kind of build on
it defensively, Dan, like, where the fuck did that come from?

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, and they were like a top ten defense for
more than half the season, and so you talk about like, oh,
you can't like you can't read too much into these trends,
and it's like, well, what the trends reached fifty games.
That's more so the stat is quote than a trend
for them. And yeah, I just don't even know what
I would have to add other than to clarify. So
they took twenty three more shots than the Calves in
game four. They also had they were a plus twelve

(20:30):
in the turnover battle, So twenty two turnovers for Cleveland
versus which you have to credit in these defense for
versus ten for the Pacers. When you're gonna win the
possession battle by that amount, like it just doesn't matter
that Cleveland attempted twice as many free throws as it
forty versus twenty as Indy. And then you kind of,
you know, you factor in like the differential from three
as well, and I'm just I'm gonna be interesting to

(20:51):
the extent like how can is there anything that you're
looking to see? Like how can the Cavaliers adjust? Assuming
it's not even assuming that they're healthy, because they're not.
But if Donovan Mitchell plays, like is there is it
just to hit more shots? But it's definitely a take
care of the ball where there's like, I hate to
boil it down to that, Oh, this is a make
or miss league and you need to protect possession, but

(21:11):
they probably need to figure out a way to do that.
And I will say, like, maybe you get to different
like if Jared Allen isn't giving you anything, then maybe
it's just trying to get it's time. Maybe it's time
to get away from Jared. I hate saying that. I
don't consider Jared Awn that type of player. But Game
four was I don't want to say no show, but
it was close to It was as close to a
no show as you can get at the very least,
So maybe that's something they do. But the way the
Pacers are playing right now, and then given the context

(21:34):
of what's happening with Cleveland's health, I don't I don't
know what the adjustment of Then well, let's start by
maybe hitting some wine open three pointers and not losing
the possession hit to such an extreme.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Hit more shots. It's usually a pretty good strategy. There's
more to it, though, I agree with you, there's more
to it than just that. It's got to be matching
their physicality, like Indy physicality, like you said it in
the top with DeAndre Hunters, who's a big ass player.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
That's a big.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Ass player, Like you need him to go in and
establish a physical presence, like he's six eight two twenty five,
two thirty maybe even two thirty five. I don't know.
Those weights never really get adjusted. But like he's up there,
like he's a big human being with skill on ball
off ball. He can shoot a bit, he can get
to the basket, like you have to ask DeAndre hunter

(22:24):
as even Isicca Coro too, who's like really like that
dude is built. The bigger, stronger wings on that team
needs to go in instet a tone like, yeah, all right,
you're trying to push us around. We're going to do
the exact same thing to you. Like it has to
be a dogfight. You're playing for survival right now. So
that's one thing we're talking about. The shooting. Obviously, we

(22:45):
need them to shoot better, but we also need to
get them the right type of shots. A quick tw
trigger Donovan Mitchell like having to sort of shoot over
two players not a good shot. We need to figure out,
like if you're if you're the capitalis then they need
to figure out way to get those shots in rhythm,
Move a little bit more off ball, install some of

(23:07):
those things. Because it's been a little eye so heavy
because of the injuries. But if everyone's available in game five,
you gotta play as a cohesive unit. Because the way
that they played over the course of the regular season
and even in the first round obviously against Miami, it's
not how they're playing right now. Right now, they're like, Okay,
we're relying on Donovan to just kind of create everything

(23:29):
for us. You can't do that. You gotta share the ball. Yeah,
you gotta gotta set each other up. You got to
make sure that everyone's like passing in the round.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
And by the way, we're saying all this too, coming
off a game which they shot forty PC from three.
It's a lot of like the work that Donovan Mitchell's
had to go through for his shots for most of
this series, with the exception of Game three, which they won,
I think Darius Garland and ever moably coming back, it
just streamlines his life there. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.
And the one thing I'll be not the one thing,
but something I'll just be monitoring for the Pacers is

(23:58):
do they go back to just a lot of them
those early Pascal Siakam actions And it's just so earlier
in the series. Through those first three games he was
averaging about thirty six point six touches in the front
court per thirty six minutes. He was at a rate
in Game four of fifty three front court touches per
thirty six minutes, and so he didn't have to play

(24:19):
as many, obviously, but like getting him the ball, getting
him involved, and maybe trying to punish Cleveland's defense, especially
when it's set in that way, I think does like
a lot of good for them. And by the way,
we've probably been giving him enough credit I know he
has some big shots in this series, like the ability
for Tyre's Haliburton to just be like Kitlin Cooper used
the word a lot over Bessell short it was like
just a decoy on the ball off of like being

(24:42):
able to use him as a decoy. That's not something
that you can do with every primary offensive driver in
the league, Like you can't do that with Luca, or
you don't do that with Luca, you don't do that
with Like. It's just the fact that Tyre's Haliburton can
do that. It's closer to Steph Curry Esk than like
other of these like traditional floor general.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
But he's overrated Dan remember to be.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Fair, and maybe I've mentioned this on the podcast The
math on That Works. That's like a dozen players.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
I know it. I know it's just taking a whole
life of its own, But obviously he's not. I agree.
It's he's such a weird player to me, like you
have to figure him out first before you kind of
appreciate him. Because I was like, he's so good, I
wanted more of him. I've said this to you repeatedly
over the course of the seas and I was like, no,
I need more of him. I need him to get

(25:28):
up to that twenty six twelve line he was that
last year. He needs to be that guy. He all right,
he is that guy despite not doing all those numbers.
Somehow he like because no one's gonna give him that shot.
Everyone is treating him as they should, as if he
is that twenty six twelve guy. So it doesn't even
matter if he puts up the numbers. He just needs

(25:50):
to get the defense to like commit to guarding him
in different spots and that opens up sections elsewhere. This
team just runs so well. And look I covered them
in Paris back in January. They lost to the Spurs
in the first game, and they came back and whooped them,
and you could tell during the pregame interview press conference

(26:17):
that they were just, yeah, oh we lost. We're kind
of gone back, like have you noticed how good we've
been lately. I think before then, they've won like nine
out of their last ten or something along the sides,
Like they were just they were completely at East. They
were like, oh, yeah, no, we know what's going to happen,
and then they went out and executed the ever living
shit out of every action. They kind of decided to

(26:40):
go with. So this team has so much higher upside
than I think most would believe or appreciate. I could
see this being a finals run.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Man, I'm so ready for the jokes of people the
NBA off is freaking out when it's okay, see in
Indiana in the final. That'd be good basketball if that happens.
There's a lot of a lot of good matchups on
the table. The too long, didn't listen or watch version
of this is the Calves are pretty injured, but the
Indiana Pacers are really fucking good. That's the that's the
nutshell version of this.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Before we move, wont I do have a question, so, like,
just from a purely entertainment ankle, would you not rather
have the Patiers and the Celtics in the finals.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
There's something I find compelling about a team trying to
defend its title on the actual final stage.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, But if, like stylistically speaking, if you're asking me,
like if I was just going for the aesthetics of
what would be the perfect finals matchup and also what
might be the most confusing finals matchup for me to cover,
it's probably Pacers versus the Wolves or the Nuggets. Right, stylistically, speaking.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
So stylistically, I can't get there with with Minnesota, like yeah,
I know, and it's ridiculous, but like, well they're just huge.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Where it's like you know what I mean. So, but yeah,
you're right. So I would probably say then that it
would be the Nuggets versus the Pacers.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Pacers Nuggets would be basketball port. I would love that
the league would hate it, regardless of what they tell.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
You, now that you have Jokic in there, and it's
I think it's personally, I think it's good if you
want to this is not discussion. I expected to have
exposed the national audience to these teams that aren't getting
as much shine, and I would say the Pacers fall
under a perfect bucket of that. I think it's it's
really awesome too that we're talking about like, oh, this
could be a finals run for them, and it's you
could talk about the lucky breaks. It happens across every

(28:37):
titles run you get. I think so the Celtics they
dominate last year, was it that they were the only
great team or that they didn't have to face another
great team aside from the Luca Mavericks who no longer exists,
and they still beat those dudes in five games. So
it's you could twist yourself into a pretzel basically through
every finals run for the most part that there's luck involved.

(28:58):
Let's talk some Nuggets Thunder who this is another series?
I mean, let's focus on me being wrong. How can
we make this about me more? I picked, and you
think I would have learned my lesson? I picked the
Clippers in five, and then I picked the Thunder in five. Okay,
you just think I would learn my lesson. The Nuggets
jump out to a two to one lead, they had

(29:18):
the lead in the fourth quarter at home in Game four,
with Jokic having maybe the worst three game stretch of
his prime, right like, it's close to it, uh, in
a position that where they could have won, they didn't.
I is it weird that I came away from if
we're looking at the fallout from Game four moving forward,
I came out of that game feeling worse about both

(29:40):
teams because I'm like, Oklahoma City's offensive process is actually concerning,
even because like when it's the non Shay stuff and
some of it is I think the world of Ja Dubb.
I think we're probably headed towards the conversation maybe about
chet Holmgren and Jylen Williams is shot by the way
Ja dub one of fifteen on wide open threes against
the Nuggets, and it's like he's able to get some
stuff going downhill, and he was. He's been key for them.

(30:04):
So I probably feel a little bit better about the
thunder outside of Shaye than a lot of other people.
But I also I should have given the people who
were very concerned about it. I shouldn't have written it
off and been like, oh no, this is so last year,
because there's clearly something there. And then with the Nuggets,
I find myself going like, you've gotten like Christian Brown,
this series, Aaron Gordon, like the supporting cast has done

(30:25):
its job too different degrees, like the Russell Westbrook offensive experience.
No thank you still, I just can't. You're never gonna
sell me on it. But like he's done a lot
of stuff for them on defense. Yeah, and so I
can say, sit here, you're tied to too, And young
Jokich is like not having a good series by Yokich's standards,
But then I'm I'm looking at it and saying he

(30:45):
just looks so damn gassed and he has a right
to be. But then you also just everyone went through
the regular season. I know he's carrying a heavy workload,
and a lot of other people like you know who
also carried an incredibly heavy workload on the offensive end.
Shake Gil is Alexander and he's not. He's not having
a banner series from an efficiency perspective by any stretch.
But I'm just I'm watching this series. I almost First

(31:06):
of all, the first half of Game four counts as
a form of torture. That was just the thundershot shot
chart looked like the red wedding from Game of Thrones.
By the end of it, the fact that they got
their offense going at all, I just more, Can you
make some sense of this series for me before we
get into bitty gritty? That was my long winded way
of saying, hey, I'm confused.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Well I am too. And look, whatever discussion you are
about like ramping up to have about chitt holmgrewm count
me in. There needs to be a discussion at some
point soon, I think too.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Would you trade him for a lightly used Mitchell Robinson.
It's just my.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
Well, not that conversation. But all right, look this has
been ugly. I do agree that that that's the you
painted it so well, saying like we left game game
four even more concerned for both parties. I think that
is the right way to look at it, because yes, look,
I love the fact that the Thunder are having this series,
by the way, like this is a real test. This

(32:06):
is a team that where they are throwing everything at you, like, yeah,
you can argue that if they shoot better in the
first two games they win handedly, but they didn't, and
the team responded like they this is a dogfight. This
is a major dogfight right now, as it should be.
They're only going to be better, maybe not even this year.

(32:28):
Maybe it's going to take a year for them to
like Okay, watch the tape, absorb it and realize, yeah,
we have to make adjustments to be better because we
just we can't be in a dogfight with a team
where this what the second third highest paid player is shooting,
Like just go look thirty one percent from the field.

(32:48):
In Mike Cortan Junior, he.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Has like one I'm not you know, MPJ. I've seen
too many of his podcasts clips probably so I have
thoughts about MPG the non basketball player, but he is,
to his credit playing basically with one shoulder.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
He is he is, but like no, no, no, no,
don't don't get it twisted. Like I'm not saying that
there is no reason for it, but like when that
player is averaging eight and a half points per game,
like you're not getting the bank for the buck that
you need in the playoffs, which is unfortunate. Like obviously
he's banked up, Like that's not his fault, but that

(33:23):
means that so many other players on the roster have
to compensate make up for it. Whatever, Like Christian Brown
started all year shooting forty six percent from the field himself.
That's not getting it done, yo, Kidsches you alluded to
thirty nine percent from the field twenty one of them
three this has been you're you're absolute right. This is
the worst stretch.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
They've been given him. Room two from three and those
looks from above the break that he normally hits, he's missing,
Like there's no like he's shooting like twenty seven percent
on set and for him, like a semi open three
is that's a high quality three, So semi open and
just completely unguarded threes, those aren't going in. But as
other people, I'm sure of pointed out by now is

(34:03):
when he does you have. First of all, you have
to credit the Okac's defense for sure, but when it
does feel like he's settling for those that's normally an
indication of Jokic is either banged up or super tired.
And I'm wondering if that's what we're dealing with through
the course of this series right.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Now, Tire, Yes, I don't. I don't think he looks
banged up. I do think it's it's fatigue also, and
I don't want to be that this guy and you,
I think you know me well enough to know that
I don't usually go on big like anti reference. I
will say this series has been poorly reffed in both sides.
But if I were to like choose one team that's

(34:41):
gotten a little bit of a benefit, it's the Thunder
And I'm not putting that on them because look, Eddie,
team that gets the benefit of the doubt, they were
going to say, thank you, can I have some more,
which they should, so I'm not blaming them for that.
But I think it's been a pretty atrociously called series.
Jokic is being just torn down on every single play,
and there are way too many non calls for me

(35:03):
to like appreciate that. And again, I also want to
say this goes both ways. Shae has also been hacked
and slashed and ripped without getting calls. That annoys me,
So like refs covering this game or do calling these
games do it a little better?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
What So, I think it's probably fair to look at that.
But if like, let's just use game four as the example,
I mean, Yokish fourteen free throw attemps versus SGA's twelve,
is there just a big enough discrede Like if you're
saying it's been inconsistent, I guess I would get, but
like it if it hasn't been inconsistent to one team's detriment,
so to speak, that's kind of a form of consistency.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
I guess you're right about that, but it's it just
irks me the wrong way that you know, he'll have
someone just pulling his shoulder down, no call, And the
same with with Shae where he gets slapped across the arms.
Like I understand what you're saying, Like free throw ad
stems are sort of an evidence that yeah, okay, they're
still getting to the line. But it's also like on
non shooting fouls, like they're just getting hit a ton

(36:02):
where you can see their like losing balance, and it's like,
I just think it's an inconsistent line because then you
look at the regular season where it was different, you're
looking at the earlier round also different. It's just I
understand why players and coaches are a little bit confused
at like where are we right now? Like what are
we allowed to do? What are we not allowed to do?

(36:25):
Like what is fair? What is not fair? Uh So,
like I would like to see that series get cleaned
up just a little bit. From a rep perspective, that
wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But jokis
just tired. And something I've picked up on this happened
in in LA. In the LA series as well. If
you get Jokich frustrated enough, he's going to clank both

(36:46):
three FROs like he just is he is when he's pissed.
He's not like a guy who plays better when he's pissed.
He really isn't. He's clanking easy shots. He's frustrated. He's
he like gets himself out of the game emotionally. And yeah,
that's if that's the philosophy or in a strategy from

(37:07):
from the Thunder, keep at it because it's working.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, and he'll sometimes excuse me, you could goad him
to just sort of fouls that, like as the Nuggets,
you don't want him to take. Sure the free throw discrepancy,
By the way, I think it's plus twelve right now
for the series in favor of the Thunder, So at
least I get. I get where you're saying. I'm actually
not saying it's wrong, but I don't I won't look
back on this series so far and think that the
referees determined it, which O.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
It's not all shooting files though I want to bet that.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right here, But you made that point there. And it's
also I think with Jokic specifically, I do feel like
anecdotally speaking, and you run into this problem with I
know the Pelicans had it with Zion a while ago.
They just expect like these bigger players or even these
well built played like Lebron I think earlier, maybe not
so much the past few years, but like you could
have just made the case where it's because dudes can

(37:56):
bounce off him since he's built like an Adonis, that
they just wouldn't get the same level of calls, and
so it does. And it's interesting because there's that juxtaposition
between Shay the star player, who's a lot of sort
of just like Craft with his dribbling and built more slight,
not that he's not strong and can't be physical, but
then versus Jokic, where it's just like he's this, but
he myth. So I totally get what you're what you're

(38:17):
saying there. The in terms of like looking forward to
seeing what more of these teams can do? Are we
at the point to zero? Went on the thunder for
a second that like, should Alex Caruso just start at
this point or yes?

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah. Mark Gaignall made this adjustment which I really liked
in game four where and I was a little confused
at first because you can't. I've always reverted back to, like, oh,
Alex Caruso, it should be your main point of it,
tack defender, right, he should be on ball. That that's
because I love him guarding the ball, And so I

(38:53):
was a little perplexed when I saw him put Caruso
on on Russ in the corner for periods in Game four,
and I realized, oh my god, that's total decoy. Play
because it just frees him up to be like the
primary back line defender, Like he just rotated up. He
guarded Jokic so well, forced Jokich into a couple of tough,
tough decisions. I didn't think he forced him into a

(39:15):
missed push shot, if memory serves. So it's like that
was that was smart because you live with an open
corner rust three, you just do that like Caruso's.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Well too, But like that's the I think it's a
left corner specifically, but like you live with it.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, you're you live with it. So like you're just
adding an you know, look, let's be honest here, a
dp O Y candidate ish type of player. You're just
allowing him to basically free roam the hell out of
the court, which good luck beating that. That's tough. That
is really tough. So that's a great adjustment for Mark

(39:50):
daeg Nold. I thought, uh, yes, I would love to
see Caruso start from here on out for the rest
of the playoffs. He's that valuable. Did he play Someone
mentioned this to me. I haven't looked it up. Did
Carusoe really play under twenty minutes per game in the
regular season? Did.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
I mean, he dealt with an injury at one point.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, I know, but like Jenner, were they able to
save him that much.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
He averaged nineteen point three minutes per game during the.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Season at all. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
That's the and one part of that adjustment too. When
Grant and I had talked about this coming out of
Game one, where we were wondering, like, should Okase be
more aggressive with how they're defending jokicch and it was
kind of well, you can't. And it's like that's kind
of one thing where if Yokic is gonna be down low,
like you can be more aggressive in those instances with
the way that they have that set up. And I think, look,

(40:41):
you have to give Isaya Hartenstein's had good moments defensively
on him, Jal Big John Williams for sure as well.
He's basically won the chet Holmgrin matchup for the most
part when we've seen that, like Alex Russel has been
a part of just mucking everything up about Denver, And
I think what's really interesting or not interesting, but I
guess would be concerning is like it doesn't feel I mean,
Christian Brown has definitely found ways to score when his

(41:02):
three balls not falling, but you have Aaron Gordon all
the stuff he's done, but it's just felt like even
with Jokic and you're looking like kind of the three
point stuff, like someone needs to give them more. Yeah,
like if your threes aren't going to fall at a
super high clip, like where are you getting that extra from?
And I guess the you have to just assume that
it's gonna be Yokich And it's like, yeah, I mean

(41:22):
Jamal Murray he can still hit pig shots and like
he gets that elbow jumper of his. It's kind of terrifying.
But the thunder like they've done a good job of
even being able to take like those looks away. And
I don't know what the offensive adjustment is for Denver
other than well, we just need you need to get
a good like Michael Porter Junior is giving you lightning
in a bottle every once in a while. On offense,
you probably need that, But it also just you need

(41:43):
Jokic to look like the Nicole Jokic I said should
have won his fourth MVP Award.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I have a number for you. So Aaron Gordon, we agree,
has had a good series, But if we take away
the threes. He's ten of twenty six from two.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
And they had the nuggets. This is what just makes
okay C's defense so was scary. They had four shot
attempts at the rim. I posted the shot chart at
halftime in game four. Four shot attempts at the rimward
in the first half. That is insane.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, yes it is. And this is where it gets
extra troubling because if you exclude the three, you have
Gordon at like forty eight percent overall. Again excluding the three,
Jamal Murray is at forty percent overall, y'all kitch to
forty nine. Russ who's taking a lot of shots, so
we had to count it forty eight Christian Brown thirty six. Well,

(42:41):
I mean, come on, we had to count it. He's
taking forty four shots. He's taking eleven shots per game.
Like I wouldn't have counted like the smaller players there,
but like.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
He's so that was great.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
No, but like we have to Brown forty six, Michael
forty Junior forty one, Like this, this is an efficiency issue.
If they're shooting forty point from the field thirty three
from three, I mean, god, like, whatever we talked about
in terms of like the Cavs and them hitting needing
to hit jump shots or just interior shots for that matter,

(43:14):
Sing goes here this, I mean, this team is just
so dire need of something something I don't know what
that something is.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah, and I mean like there and by the way,
just to edit myself, it's a plus twelve and free
throw a temps for the Nuggets for the series. I
think I said Thunder now that I just as I
closed out that window, I realized I probably misspoke. But yeah,
I mean Denver being against this team, and I know
that Oklahoma City what they have as scores with their
drives and they can play like dual big, But to

(43:45):
be a minus fifty two in the paint for the
series when you knew coming into this that in all
likelihood you were gonna get destroyed in the transition battle,
and like, hey, lo and behold, you've been outscored close
to two to one and it's seventy seven for Okay
see versus forty three for the Thunder. To lose the
points in the paint battle to such a stark degree,

(44:07):
like that's I mean, that's problematic, and then all like
just even the Yeah, I don't know what the answer is,
and I mean the you could maybe hope Denver because
they have we've just seen too much like uncharacteristic turnovers
from them. But then you're also like, well, I mean
they are going up against the Thunder, like is that's
just not that's a thing that could happen. And that's
the other thing too, is just like they're when I

(44:31):
saw this number before we started recording it. Actually, I
guess if you're watching, you don't realize it in real time,
but okay, see ninety seven to forty three and points
off turnovers for the series that like you expect to
lose that battle, I think is the thunder I mean
is the Nuggets. Excuse me, but like that's just that's
huge here as well, until you need to flip that
script a little bit, and it's not about winning the

(44:53):
fast break in the turnover battle. It's about, hey, if
we limit the turnover bat like, if we limit our turnovers,
especially like the ones that you can actually limit when
I think you go back and look at a lot
of Game four you certainly could have done that allows
you to get your defense set or at least give
you a better opportunity to and then you're just by extension, Okay,
so he's not going to spend as much time in
transition there, and so like that's something that feels like

(45:13):
a controllable even if Jokic is gassed, and like even
if you just don't trust the support, which again I
think that you point to which I'm still dying at
you saying we need to count the rush shot attempts
because there are so many. Russ has given you what
you needed from Russ in the vein of like, that's
what we need from him. Defensively, I think Christian Brown, Yeah,
threes aren't falling, but he's given you what you needed,

(45:34):
so you have to start looking at Okay, there's the
Yokic element of all this, whereas they're not going to
win this series, the fact that it's two to two
and Jokic has had like the fact that you've won
one of the past three games with what we've seen
from Yokic, that's a big deal that can't continue. But
I think that you, if you're them, you might need
to focus more on the minutia stuff rather than like,
we really need to figure out a way to hit
a higher clip of our threes or something, and look,

(45:56):
before I throw it back to you, their defense has
been really good since like way through what that Clipper series,
and that's not a level I thought that they could
ever get to until like they the fact they were
in position to win Game four specifically that was a
quintessential rock fight. And so there's like you've shown that
you can hang with the thunder there, it's can you
clean up enough? To clean up enough on offense not
a small task against Okac's defense.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Right. Look, we're kind of circling a topic here as well,
because we're talking about as from an offensive perspective, like
who's gonna step up, who's going to do more? Should
be Jamal Murray? Like that's the thing, right, Like, that's
we've sort of grown accustomed to Jamal being I don't
want to say inconsistent, but we're getting different versions of him,

(46:41):
right Like we're getting these crazy forty five point games
and we're getting like twelve point games. Like there's there's
just such a the lows are really low in the
highs are so high, and it's I think for the Nuggets,
you need something that you can rely on. You need
some sort of stability in his production where it's not

(47:04):
a surprise every single night in terms of what he
gives you, Like, I understand why you laugh at that,
because it's like it shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Like it's ingrained into the fabric of their team at
this point. For me is why it's because it's you
know what I mean, Like, how are you supposed to
expect we've to be fair? I guess we've seen him
be more consistent when in the past, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yeah, we have. And I just think it messes up
like it seems wide expectations and it messes up like
team dynamics, because all right, let's say he comes out
and gets you nine quick points in the first quarter,
and it seems like, oh okay, Jamal is on one.
Maybe we can give him that more responsibility. Then he

(47:47):
doesn't score again until like early in the fourth. Those
are some of the things where I'm like, it's so
tough to build anything sustainable in terms of offense around players.
You know, he's not obviously not the primary player, but
he's at least the secondary offensive minded guy. Like, how
do you build something sustainable around that? I don't have

(48:09):
the answer for it, but I do think it's wildly frustrating.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I do wonder though you mentioned Jamal Murray. I think
lou Dort deserves a lot of credit for why Jamal
Murray struggling, and I think that gets into we didn't
really get into what could be the potential downside. Like
we see lou Dort, he's shooting thirty nine percent on
open threes for the series. I think that's not like
a super high number. And when you look at his
three like, it feels like he's trying to shoot okay,
see out of games at points. That's the variance you

(48:36):
that could be damaging, But I guess you have to
live with If you start Caruso, you're removing that that
Westbrook element from your bag at least for stretches, unless
carus is going to play all forty eight minutes, and
then you're also taking off the so like him on
Jamal Murray is fine, but now it's all writer, are
you trying to use lou Dort and then Alex carusso

(48:57):
role if you're bringing him off the the like coming
into the bench and playing minutes and so that might
be something that's in the back of Okac's mind to
where it's like we still want to have Lou Dort
going after Jamal Murray so that we can move Alex
carus Are around the spectrum more. I guess the solve
would be you look at like you're not gonna bench
one of the bigs at this point, certainly right, No.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I look, I know he hasn't been great from range
this series, but you need just a threat of Chet
from the outside. Hartenstein, I think is tough to take
off the floor. I think he's been rock solid, like
he's making the right reads, he's not forcing shots, like
he's taking what the defense is giving him. He's rebounding

(49:40):
like I think he's done a pretty decent job on
Yoki's just well like so far, if you're looking at
the Bigs from okay, see he's been the MVP of
the Bigs for them this series. So but he doesn't
give you the spacing component. He doesn't give you the
outside scoring. You know where he's gonna get the shots
like Chet can also defensively, for that matter, free roam

(50:01):
a little bit more, which is saying something when he's
like seven foot one and like what is this wingspan
seven eight or something ridiculous, So like I do think
that matters, but there might be a time there might
be like moments here there where you can get away
with it and you go super small and just scale
up the speed. They'll have to see what like how

(50:23):
Denver is playing initially, and what's a react out of
what have.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
You made of the just the chet series or even
if you're looking at like, okay, the j Dubb the
type of game that he had in in game four,
and then even if it trickles down to what do
you do if you're I mean they want anyway, but
what do you do in those instances where it's can
you rely anymore? On a case in Wallace for volume
who that's another dude who's had a really good defensive series.

(50:47):
He goes three or three like it feels like and
he's just wide open all the time. Those are it
feels like consciously the Nuggets have almost decided like, well,
those are dudes that we don't want to leave open.
Him and Aaron Wibb, like we're gonna leave them open
because we don't necessarily love the all alternatives. What do
you make of like if they're of what offensive adjustments
or levers that may be Mark Dagnell kim pull from.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Here, it's a good question. Yeah, I wouldn't mind going
more to the guys who you know, are are viewed
as second string or you know, not part of the
primary three, because there are a lot of player quality
on this team. Like, again, I trust, I, say, a
Joe to take shots. I trust Aaron Wickinson to take shots.

(51:28):
You mentioned Keson Wallace, I trust him to take shots. Hell,
even lou Dord, even though he's shooting twenty five percent
of three this series, Like over the past couple of years,
he's been such a good shooter that I trust the
ball to go through his hands a little bit more
so if that is the necessary response to jadub or
chat not being able to utilize certing matchups or not

(51:51):
being able to hit from distance or whatever. Yeah, that's
that's a perfectly fine lever to pull. That said, I
would prefer Jalen Williams and Chet Holme, who are supposed
to join Shay on the max contract wagon fairly soon,
even to maybe start thinking about, Okay, like, am I
jacking a little too many contested shots? Am I not

(52:12):
doing anything? Like? Am I doing enough to sort of
twist my game into a different place where I can
be productive? You know? I do I think Jaalen Williams
has had a tough series offensively, Yeah. Do I also
think there are times where he actually tries to do
something else I do, but I don't necessarily think he
does it all the time. And there are elements where
he's just young, right, twenty three years old and is

(52:36):
going to make mistakes of that nature of that age group.
Same goes with chet so like I have patience, but
if you're going for a title and you need to
be pretty harsh about it, like if this continues, yeah,
you got to put more on the reserves.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Absolutely, I'd be curious to see. And then you get
into well, who are the minutes coming at the expense
of And I guess maybe you knife into door it
by can ratchet up Alex Caruso's minutes if he's starting,
and then cut even like a little bit more from
the top off of Dort. But I do think the
thunder they can get away from like what makes them
dangerous offense and again credit the nuggets defense are the

(53:13):
work they've done. But there's just and Shae might even
be a part of it where it's why are so
many of these possessions, especially in crunch time there's just
no driving, Like it's just like it feels like they're settling.
We saw it in game four, I think, even more
with their offense, whereas they didn't have like sixty drives
in game three or something, and then it's like forty
three drives or whatever in game four, and it's this

(53:33):
is what makes you special in the absence of having
if you think, Okay, there's j Dubb and there's Shay
and there's just not a ton of guys who can
create their own looks chet Holmgrin included there. I don't
like seeing them like stray away from that so often,
especially when they were so consistent and overwhelming with it
during the regular season and even in that you know,
Memphis Grizzly series. And then it's if you're in danger

(53:54):
of doing that or if you're trying to figure out
a way to inoculate yourself against that. I do wonder
if Aaron Wiggins more of the answer it's you you
might concede some stuff defensively, but like he can just
do more on offense than a case in Wallace he
is I would say he's definitely maybe he's not as
willing to not he's as willing to fire him up
as Alue Door, but he's more dynamic on offense than

(54:14):
Door as well, And so is that something worth Where
did he play fifteen minutes in Game four? Like that
just might be someone who I'm giving more of a
look to.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, no, you're speaking my language. I love him. I
love Aaron Wakins. I think he is, you know, not
in terms of like, oh, one of the most underrated,
you know, like he says he would be a star elsewhere.
That's not what I'm saying. But I do think generally speaking,
he's one of the more underrated NBA players out there.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, he's someone who in this is maybe you could
say this about a couple Thunder players, but it feels
like he would start on twenty other teams.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yeah, h No, I think that is a completely fair assessment.
The shooting, obviously we know that. But this year he
added a little bit more on ball creation to his game.
I think we've seen some passing jobs, even though he
doesn't rack up raw systs. I don't know, like I
haven't gone into the weeds with this one. If he's
more of like an hockey assist guy. But it does

(55:09):
feel to me this year compared to last year, he's
just making more high quality passes. So I think he
has taken a bit of an evolution from last year
to this one where he's actually sort of come out
of that very limited three and sometimes d roll last
year to this year, he's more of a fully fledged

(55:30):
scorer that it'd be interesting to see if he could
carry that mantle in the playoffs where he actually gets
the ball in his hands a little bit more instead
of being, you know, entirely reliant upon reacting to the
actions of others.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
It's interesting to notice that because during the regular season
he basically more than doubled his potential assists per game,
and it's not like his role he got so much
bigger either, So this is I don't think you can
trust him to do it, but there's certainly more depth
to it, so you can if you're looking to you
capitalize on driving kick stuff like that. Is someone who
I do think can be not primary engine for it,

(56:07):
but certainly just like a safety net for it. Let's
even call it.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
No, but you're right, I mean he's I think he's
that kind of player. It'd be interesting to see Mark
Dagnall dust him off at a higher capacity. Now, I
don't want to go this far, but I also think
if you're looking at offensive production, offensive fluidity, whatever, I
wouldn't hate Jalen Williams minutes in the front court a

(56:33):
little bit more as well. Look, he's obviously there's a
major step down from Chet and Hartenstein, but if Chet
keeps breaking threes, if he's not really that assertive offensively,
I wouldn't mind relinquishing a few of those minutes to
go to Jalen Williams instead, just to make things happen.

(56:53):
He's a wonderful ballplayer for someone his size, can really
make a pass, He rebounds pretty well, can shoot it. Like.
This team is ridiculously deep and ridiculously good, so they
have options. It's just a matter of like when is
the time to realize, oh, yeah, we got to pull
the plot on this specific player for the rest of

(57:15):
the game or for the rest of the half, of
the rest of the quarter, because he just doesn't have it. Like,
I also appreciate Mark Diakno basically sticking with j Dub
and Chet and going no, no, you'll fight through through
to this and you'll find a way. So far, though.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
I think I felt way better about Jdeb series overall
than Chet's though, And so it's just like the shooting,
like the efficiency isn't necessarily there, but like he's done
some stuff inside the arc the j Will. That's interesting
because I would look at it as more as if
you're looking to continue to come up this series, because
that's another body that you can throw in Jokic and
the Nuggets in this series are scoring point seven points

(57:52):
per possession when Jay Will registers as a defender on
jokicch that is for anyone that's that's low. The league
bridge in the playoffs I think is like one point
one four one point one five points.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
So very small sample size obviously, yes.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Playoffs sample size is matter though, So that's true. That
is true that I guess. I just I don't know
that I see the Jay Will value proposition from an
offensive I guess if you're looking for someone to set
like more solid, I would see it more as like
a defensive thing, I guess is what I'm getting.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Now. Oh, okay, that's interesting, I see. I I think
he's also pre dynamic in terms of when he's on
the perimeter. Maybe I need to like watch a little
closer on that. Specifically, but I do think he's a guy.
It seems sort of like eyeing all the time when
he's outside the long line.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
So then from you, I guess from your perspective, it's
if there's minutes where it's him and Chet and then
that you can still kind of have size but also
have like a faux five out spacing let's call, because
I don't think defenses aren't gonna religiously guard j him.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
That makes sense, yeah, right, him or Hardenstein or even
him and Chet. Really, I mean just basically I think him.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
In her pretty physical If that to me would be
more like we're gonna try to you know, f your
world up on the defensive end.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
I mean, look, you can do that and still have
a spacing presence on the other side of the floor.
I yeah, absolutely, I'd be down for it. There. The
thing is, to me, though, the main takeaway is, Okay,
see you have so many more possible constellations and you know,
not gimmicks, but like it's it's basically a game of
Tetris for them because they can just sort of slide

(59:28):
players in such many varieties, Like what can Denver do?
What do they even have in that regard.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Their margin for error is even with the series too
too and a very easily it could be three to
one in either team's favor at this point. Yeah, but
like their margin for error is just so much slimmer
than Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Really. Yeah, And that's my main takeaway honestly for this series,
like they Denver has to play virtually perfect basketball from
here on that.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
I do think if you believe that Jokic is gonna
just and there's not necessarily a reason to say that
Jokich won't be Yokich at some point, I think you
can look at this and say, if you believe that,
you have to feel pretty good about being two two
after the past three games that Yokich played.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Yes, especially when you also consider the very short turnaround
by the way, something we forgot to get into. What
the hell they were playing super late Friday and very
early Sunday. They didn't even get forty eight hour turnaround, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
No, they didn't. And the benefit one benefit of that
is is now you get the longer rest period between
your game five, like between Sunday and then your game
five on Tuesday. But that scheduling was just and it
wasn't like, yeah, the only game that was on or
followed by a West Coast game. It was no Cleveland,
Indiana or the night game, which made no sense. And
I'm sure it had something to do with arena conflicts

(01:00:48):
or something, but it just made no sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
No, And I just think when you have such a
delicious series, it just hurts it, right. I mean, there
are many ways I could look at this and come
away with this being basically the Western Conference Finals. Honestly,
just from an entertain perspective as well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
I think you could say that just because the looming
uncertainty with Steph and Golden State, and then just you can't,
like it felt like Minnesota was trying like hell to
lose Game three against Golden State, and so I just don't.
I will never trust Minnesota's offense ever. Again, I don't
think like maybe if they trade for Kevin Durant, but
so yeah, and look, it's not unfair to say that

(01:01:26):
because are regardless of who makes it out of this
series versus who they would face in the Conference finals,
I think teams are probably maybe Denver versus Minnesota. Would
people pick Minnesota, But I actually think whoever comes out
of this series will be favored to make it to
the NBA Finals out of the West.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Like I respect people would take Minnesota over Denver, Like
I understand all the logical reasons for that, but can
we really like, look if Yo Kitch with very few
like with very little help, beats the Thunder and also
comes out of a seven game series with the Clippers,
like eventually, we're gonna have to say, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Like I would be morally obligated. Yeah, I would be
morally obligated to pick the Nuggets in that because I
picked against them with the Clippers, picked against them with
the Thunder, and if they beat those two teams, and yeah,
I would have to pick them to beat the Timberwolves
or Warriors. I think honestly, I think they probably eat
the Warriors alive, just giving Golden State's lack of size everywhere.
But yeah, uh yeah, so I would have there's your

(01:02:25):
there's your consellation Nuggets fans. I don't know if they're
gonna beat the Thunder. I still wouldn't predict it, but
if they do, I'm just gonna pick them to make
the NBA Finals because I will have a moral obligation
to do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
You have anything else you want to add about these
two series before we skidaddle.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
No, so I well, I mean, I will say this,
despite the very ugly Game four, denver O case, I
enjoy these games. I mean these two series in particular
that we talked about, like I'm getting a little fired
up before game time. I'm gonna level with you there,
I'm not getting fired up for well, I'm getting a

(01:03:01):
little fired up because the Knicks had such a great
start against the Celtics. But I'm not getting fired gid.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
This is just my whole thing. And if this has
been published after they won Game four, whatever, they fell
behind by twenty points in the first two games.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
This is just fair. Okay, let me rephrase the fact
that they won the first two games.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Look, they won, they wanted. They won two more games
than I honestly expected them to win, and I picked
them to lose in five. I thought that Boston, I thought,
and I thought that game was Game one, So that
series is interesting in series score, and even if Boston's
losing three to one. But I'm I think these are
the two most compelling series that we just talked about,

(01:03:41):
and I do believe Golden State, Minnesota would have had
a chance. But like the Steph injury is just like
that nukes so much of the interest.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
I'll also admit, just personally outside of and and I
said this before, I just don't find the Wolves all
that compelling. Although it is refreshing to see that Julius
Randall little have broken that whole, you know, negative mantra
he had around him. That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
He's been he's been fun to watch, and they're like
even against the Lakers, like him, like putting the clamps
on Lebron James at point. This has been I made
a joke and then they were just fans from both
teams got mad, but like Knicks fans like crying because
they're seeing Julius Randall come up. It wasn't about should
they have made the cat trade? It was they had
those playoff runs of Julius rendl were just so bad.
And now he's healthy and he's on a team that

(01:04:27):
has n't been the right role for the most part,
and he just he looks good and he like the
Wolves are here. That's a big part of why I mean,
I don't trust them at all because Minison and by
the way, Indiana fell into that bucket. For all the
Pacers have done you. We had some pushback because you
called them consistent before we came into this series. They
with the timer Wolves apply of the team that like
plays down to that level of their opponents, and that

(01:04:48):
might be the thing that you would be concerned about
the most as a Pacers fan against like they almost
It says a lot that that game where the Cavs
didn't have you could argue three of their five most
important players and Indie like almost lost that that would
have been the typical Pacers loss was Game two, and
yet they go up against Cleveland, gets healthier and then

(01:05:09):
they run them out of the gym even more quick
like explain that I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Nope, nope. It's something that underlines this belief that I
have that it's never the product here, Like when people
are pissed off at the NBA, at least right now,
it's not the product, it's the presentation. Because I I
can sit there and I can be pissed off at games.
I can be pissed off at refs, I can be
pissed off at a lot of things. But like holistically,

(01:05:35):
when I take a step back and I try to
evaluate the quality of the product right now, no matter
how hard I tried, Dan, I just can't poke enough
holes in it to the point where I'm like, this
league is dumb, this is bad basketball. The nineties and
eighties were better. This is fucking brilliant basketball. You just

(01:05:55):
have a bunch of old fucks on television who are
plaining about it and have done so for twenty goddamn years,
Like this is fantastic basketball.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
And that ties into what you were saying, where I
really do believe a lot of it's a messaging problem.
And then insofar as there is a problem with the product,
a lot of it's a regular season the length of
it problem, because look at what happens when these games
are just there are these incredible chess matches, and I
applaud the chaos of these playoffs. I have those like
first three or four days of the second round. If

(01:06:26):
we would have had to record a podcast at I mean,
I'm sure we did. I had no clue what was
going on. It was just confusing as hell, Like the
Knicks comebacks, all these comebacks that the way that the
Pacers won that for everything was just bonkers. And it's
been I've had a lot of fun. It's been, like
you said, brilliant basketball even when it's ugly, because there's
a lot of things to appreciate about defenses.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Moret are you able to tell our listeners where they
can find you and all the fine work that you do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Over at Forbes, over at Yahoo. And then I do
the pod, which is basically here in your feed, whether
you're listening to The Herd with Knox or at the
NBA podcast, it's more or less the same, like we're
basically we've become the interview meeting, same but different. That's
us now because there we.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Have our crossover episodes, just like any good franchise does.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Right, we just have like seven hundred of them every month. Yes,
until next time. And as always, I think you have
the shout out to the one, the only, the indelible.
If any of these playoff teams could sign

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
Him, they would immediately win the championship, mister Frank Nila
Kina