What's Next For The Hawks, Mavericks & Kings? - Featuring Bryan Toporek

Mort & Bry discuss the Hawks, Mavs, Kings, and have an unprompted GOAT big man debate featuring a certain Serbian.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hi, and welcome to the NBA Podcast. My name is
Morgan Jensen. Than Today we'll be discussing the Atlanta Hawks,
the Sacramento Kings, and the Los Angeles Clippers. Specifically, we're
going to be talking about the Kings without Trey Young,
the Kings who are probably in needle rebuild, and that's
saying it mildly. And then just wtf with the Clippers
with Bradley Beale now missing the entire season because of

(00:40):
a hip injury because he's old And to walk me
through all of that is Brian Sapporik. How are you, sir?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
A fellow old guy is joining you for? We need
to talk about Lebron sciatica too?

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Oh yeah, that's that's definitely an old guy thing too.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Knock on what. I'm not quite at sciatica age yet,
but I'm sure it's coming soon. Right, But I'm doing well.
Thank you as always for having me excited to take
some victory laps about the Clippers today. Yeah, you are
allowed to.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
That is fair. That is fair. So let's get into
the Atlanta Hawks without the Tray Young. If at all
this complicates matters for his contract negotiation or contract extension
see significantly so far. And if this pattern is to
continue raw because what what did they? Were? They two

(01:33):
and three with him? If memories, sir leave one in three,
I saw it one in three.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh so one in three with him and then seven
and two without I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh so we're not yeah, we're not counting the game
against Brooklyn because he played like seven minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Then I guess, so yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
And they've been doing pretty well lately. They've also gotten
just weird performances like Dico Kongo hitting eight, like taking fourteen.
That was one of the things that you and I
talked about for a couple of years, like what is
his role within the league, Like how is he going
to differentiate himself? How is like he needs the three

(02:14):
ball or he needs something. Well, if he's hitting eight threes,
I'm going to say it the three ball has arrived officially.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I believe he had never even attempted that many in
a game before Thursday night. And then yeah, just I
mean defense was very optional in Utah last night, on
both sides of the ball.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
But more than him though, like Jalen Johnson, and this
is something that's been interesting to me. This is something
that I've been tracking a little bit. I said this
last year on the Pod or last season when you
weren't around, because you were like being a dad and stuff.
I basically pondered out loud whether if Tree Young were

(02:59):
to leave the Hawk, you know, not necessarily by a trade,
but just like if that marriage ended, would Jalen Johnson
be able to step up be the number one guy?
And like, I don't think we've gotten like full confirmation
that yes he can, but it does look pretty encouraging
just the way that he plays, like he's so high efficiency.
He's become a far better playmaker over the past couple

(03:22):
of years. The defense, I believe is real. He's still
not like a natural three point shooter, but you could
even make the case on some level that the same
is true for Trey because like, even though he can
hit those deep, deep three balls and you can hit
a bunch of them, it's never been statistically speaking, an
efficiency strength of his. So it's probably easier to build

(03:47):
around a multi faceted wing big who is like a
pedestrian slash average shooter, but who has all of the
guard skills to go along with some of the big
man skills. I would imagine, especially in today's NBA, as
opposed to an undersized guard. However dynamic he might be,
So like, where do you land on the whole Jalen

(04:08):
Johnson dynamic of it all?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I mean I went into this season, I believe
you can go back on my blue sky, and like
a week or two before this really started, I was
like the hot take to say that Jalen Johnson is
the Hawk's best player, not Trey Young, and I got
a lot of responses was like lukewarm take, but well
we'll see. You know, a lot of it was like

(04:33):
if that is the case, that is probably better for
the Hawks moving forward for the reasons you just went through. Yeah,
because yeah, like it's challenging. It's always going to be
challenging to put a top ten defense around Trey Young
unless you have four above average to elite defenders around him.

(04:55):
And even still, I mean teams are going to target
him in the playoffs. It's just right his size, you know,
he's unless he suddenly grows four inches and packs on
some extra weight, like he's going to have a bullseye
on his back. But the question was, yes, can you
know he is so such a floor and ceiling Razor
for their entire offense in theory, can they withstand his

(05:18):
absence and so far, I mean they you know, I
think what's interesting about this run is that they're not
just feasting on cupcakes. Yes, they beat Brooklyn in Indiana,
but they've also beaten Orlando. They've beaten Lakers, the Clippers,
which everyone is beating lately, you know, Kings and Jazz whatever.

(05:39):
But doing it on a back to back, a road
back to back, like those are the games that not
even like good teams lose, but like mediocre teams will
typically drop one of those two games. So the fact
that the Hawks got both of them is eye opening
to me. I think to your point, you know, there

(06:00):
was it did not seem like there was a lot
of interest on the Hawks side to approach an extension
negotiation with Trey Young this offseason. He made his feelings
fairly clear on that he was disappointed. I don't know.
I mean, I would think seeing this run and if
if it's proves to be sustainable, and I mean if

(06:22):
you look at the Hawk's upcoming schedule, you know, Phoenix, Detroit,
San Antonio the next three games, but then they've got Pelicans,
Hornets and Wizards. So you know, wouldn't shock me if
they end up going at least three and three over
the next six if not better than that. You know,

(06:44):
they'll have time once Trey is back. I believe he
was only supposed to miss like a month.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Right, Yeah, well did didn't they say he had to
be reevaluated in a month?

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Okay? Well, either way, hopefully they have time to see
what the team, you know, get a decent sample size
of the team without him, and then get him back
into the mix. Because they did add a ton of
pieces of this offseason, Christops, Porzingis Nikil, Alexander Walker, Luke
Nard chief among them. So you know, I don't want
to like totally overreact and say this is all Tree

(07:18):
Young's fault because it gets substantially better, but I think
it does at least rays the interesting question of like, okay,
if you can be look like this without him, is
there a way to upgrade that forty five to fifty
million dollars salary slot that he would occupy if you
do sign him to a max contract? And does this

(07:39):
give you more leverage to say we are not going
to give you the full four year max that you
are seeking right, you know, and if that's the case,
then like do you start to entertain offers to move
him by the trade deadline or are you willing to
let this play out? And I'm restricted free agency next
saw season.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
There are so many ways is to approach this, which
I think is interesting. And you know they're doing this.
One thing is they're doing it without Trey Christops has
missed two games this year. You know, Dyson Daniels offensively
has sort of regressed. He's not been the same been
the same player. This is too early, so this is

(08:20):
just like a picture for the now. But like Sagary
Richet has sort of stagnated. He looks pretty much like
he did last year. Well, he's regressed in one area.
He's very basically attending the Jaron Jackson Junior School of rebounding.
You know, two point six rebounds per game for the

(08:40):
six to ten wing out of France, that is is
not great. So like they're getting contributions from so many
other places like Tequila Alexandra Walker, Like just stepping into
seventeen points per game was not on my bingo card,
by the way.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, that pretty dope.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
I mean, yeah, Okongvo you know, participateing this is this
is a depth team. And like, even though Jalen Johnson
is not giving you the twenty five, twenty six, twenty
seven points that Tray can give you, it almost seems
like it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
I mean, what did he have against USA? Yeah, thirty
one eighteen fourteen and seven steals as well. Yeah, like
I saw the NBA's sweet it's that he sat four
separate career highs. Yeah, played forty one minutes. I mean
that that certainly helps. But like, yeah, I mean he is,

(09:37):
you know, become he had he flirted with triple doubles
in the two games prior to that too. He had
twenty four to ten and eight against the Kings. Is
only twenty four minutes.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, ooh beat Crachy as well, Yeah, we need to
talk about Beat as well. He's been he's been dope
for him, just like their primary three point shooter at
this point, and just like such a dynamic one at that. Like,
I just I just love how they're free flowing into
this thing. It's almost like they're a bit unleashed by

(10:06):
not playing a heliocentric brand of basketball.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, I thought the VT thing
was a bit from John Hollinger for a long time,
Oh no, realizing like, oh no, he's actually I mean,
he's just been shooting fifty one percent from three point
range this year on five point four attempts per game,
like actual volume and also just insane efficiency. That will
surely come down. I'm not expecting him to shoot that well,

(10:32):
but like he shot forty three point seven percent last year,
forty one point two the year prior. He he is
a very good three point shooter. He has developed into
a very good three point shooter. So like, even if
he does drop down from fifty one, which he will,
because no one ever shoots that well for an entire season,
you know, the low forties is a reasonable expectation for him.

(10:53):
And yeah, I mean to your point, like they they
might not have, you know, the typical like big three
model that we associate with all of these top teams,
but like this might be that we've alluded to, like
a two star model, whether it's Jalen and Trey or
Jalen and someone else, they've got depth out the ass.

(11:13):
I mean, they're you know, all the guys we've run through,
they they're loaded and if they can you know, get
if they can keep Christops, if he stays healthy and
they can get him back on a reasonable contract after
this year, that is encouraging. I mean, Jalen Johnson is
on wonderful deal, like the best value contract in the league,

(11:36):
non rookie scale or non mac like you know, Luca
Max is still one of the best contracts in the league.
But like on a contract that you actually had to negotiate.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, copy White at twelve million has an argument.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, okay, but like I hear you.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
No, but I hear you though, like in terms of
like the non ridiculous contracts, because Copey's contract ended up
being ridiculous, like Johnson's was like at least one point
fifty like it was yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
But it's thirty million flat, yeah, which I mean so smart.
This is only the first year. They have four more
years of him at thirty million dollars flat per year, Like,
I mean, they might run into the issue down the
line where he's so cheap they can't even extend him.
But that's you know, you can.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's twenty thirty, that's five years from now. By that time,
he's about to turn like what twenty nine or twenty
eight he's gonna be twenty eight. It's you can figure
that out. I mean, it's it's such a good deal.
And I love the fact that NBA teams have begun
doing this, like the flat rates, because this is something
we talked about for years knowing that the cap was

(12:49):
going to increase. Like they did the same thing with
Dyson Daniels too in Atlanta twenty five million flat flat. Yeah,
it's just it's just a smart way. Even if you
take a bit of a hit initially, like down the line,
it's gonna be so good. You're gonna avoid the eight
prints potentially if you, you know, have the right players
locked into certain salary slots, meaning you can actually conduct trades.

(13:14):
That's a good thing having that flexibility. So with KP,
I'm curious, like coming into this season, there was this
overarching idea that, oh, if you can get Chris tops
back at the same value that he's earning now, like
a flat thirty, yeah, they should probably take it. Like

(13:36):
he's only missed two games, So I'm not gonna sit
here and say that, Oh, you know, the he's out
there and being super injured, and I think he also
was a rest day, right, Like yeah, but at the
same time, he's playing twenty five twenty six minutes per game.
I think it's fair to say that he does look

(13:57):
a little bit limited in his movement pattern compared to earlier.
He's also he's also thirty now, he's no longer a
spring chicken. Is there a world where they can get
him back for cheaper than his current.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Deal, It wouldn't totally shock me. I mean, you know,
the the issue, and this goes with Trey too, is
that a lot of teams are at least currently in
line to have cap space next summer, so it only
takes one team to screw up your plans. With that said, like,

(14:32):
how many teams are excited to pay a off injured
big man that much money? I don't know. So yeah,
I mean I would think I would be surprised if
he got much more than thirty million a year. Moving forward, like,
I think he's gonna have to take kind of like
short term. You know, maybe they get him back at

(14:55):
two years fifty five or two years sixty at the
highest ense, But like, I don't think any team is
going to offer him a four year contract and free
agency right.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
So they can go to him and basically say, you know,
we'll give you two years sixty or you can take
like three years seventy five or something along those rights. Right, Yeah,
I think that's a smart way to approach any contract
negotiation with him as well. So with Trey it comes
down to, you know, if he doesn't get the extension,
does he opt in next summer or does he opt

(15:28):
out and like try to play the market. That's also
one of those things that are like floating, which I
think is interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
If he should opted in, that would be wild.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, I don't think so, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I guess it's possible. Eight for a lot of teams,
are you know, at least as of now with Yiannis
and Jokic at least potentially able to become free agents.
And twenty twenty seven, like that's what we heard originally
when the Lakers didn't re sign Dorian Finney Smith. It

(16:05):
was David Kenham in VSPN said they're eyeing twenty twenty seven, right,
which I found suspicious because you can make an argument
twenty twenty six is actually their best time to strike
before they resign. Austin reeves they can do like the
Tyreese MAXI thing with Austin Reeves take advantage of chief capold.
So no, I think there are a lot of teams
that are either going to line up space for twenty

(16:28):
twenty seven at least until you're honest, and you'll get
your officially off the market. So like, from that perspective,
maybe does, maybe Trey does pick it up. But at
the same time, this free agent class keeps getting whittled down.
So if Trey, you know, it's going to be Trey
Lebron and then well, I guess we'll see what happened
with James Harden if he picks up his option. But
like Trey, if he declines, it's going to be one

(16:49):
of the best players on the market.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
So yeah, yeah, but he's like the option for next
year is at twenty nine and a half percent of
the salary cap, so it's not like the full thirty.
I wonder if the Fulford is out there.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I would think on a shorter term deal, I mean,
some team is desperate enough to throw it, Like if
you're a team that has no hope of getting a
player like that, otherwise you'll you'll make that type of
offer like with the Brooklyn Nets. Throw him even though
they just drafted sixteen point guards.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
All of them are not good so far.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
With the Washington Wizards try to you know. That's the
other thing, like teams that have been rebuilding for a
couple of years and are starting to get pressure from
their ownership, like will they start to expedite their rebuild?
So I think he would get a MAX deal, especially
because if from another team it'll only be five percent raises.

(17:53):
You know, I don't know that it would be a
good investment.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
No, it's perhaps this should just pull the trigger John
MraY for Trey Young and then just extend him in
Memphis immediately.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well that's I'm wondering the one that I mean, that's
the obvious one, right Dallas was one that came to
mind for me. Oh oh, Kyrie for t or Kyrie
and whatever you need to throw in salary your eyes
for Trey.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
So let's check that out. And he's got a trade
restrictions for fifteenth of December, just like half the damn
league thirty six and a half million, Trey set forty six,
so roughly ten million. Well that's Caleb Martin right there. Done,
Caleb Martin, Kyrie Irving for yeah, for Trey young that

(18:50):
that works, right, that should work.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
At least gets you in the ballpark.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah yeah, hm hm, that's interesting. Like, but I'm not
sure what Trey's going to do in Dallas.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, they just need a point guard.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Especially obviously they don't according to Jason Kidd.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
I mean, like Trey, you get younger with Trey in Dallas,
which is what you should be progressing toward if you're
keeping Anthony Davis. I mean, Trey is if there's one
thing he's very good at, running pick and roll, and
having a partner like Anthony Davis and even like Cooper
Flag would be I think it would actually be kind
of a good for him stylistically, and being able to

(19:36):
be coached by Jason Kidd should typically ideal or appeal
to a star point guard.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
And then the twenty six games, he'll he'll be coached
by kid before someone new comes in and actually realizes, oh,
we got to get rid of Jason Kidd.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
They just signed him to an extension.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I know, but new management team in place. But I
love the of the argument from you, like Trey's gonna
come in there, He's gonna play with Anthony Davis for
like what four games.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Right, Well, yes, there is that too. Well, I mean,
still you're getting younger regardless, and like if you're able
to flip Kyrie for something of you know, a player
of Trey's caliber, like I think Dallas would have to
include more. I think they would have to sweeten it
with draft picks. And maybe that's where it breaks down.

(20:26):
But you know, from you looking from Atlanta's perspective, Kyrie
is older, which is not ideal, which is why you
would be pushing for at least one maybe distant future pick.
But you'd want some sort of draft compensation, I would think.
But Kyrie can operate a lot better on and off
the ball than Trey. Is a better three point shooter

(20:46):
than Trey. Not I mean, not a great defender by
any means. But I don't know if he's going to
have like quite the bulls eye on his back that
Trey would. So I think he.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Seeks too as opposed to like I've eleven on a
good day.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah right, and he's not. You're not gonna have to
do the healo eccentric thing with him, Like you can
continue having a more egalitarian offense. You can have it
still run through a lot through Jalen Johnson and Kyrie
is operating off the ball like I don't know, it
feels like a trade that makes sense basketball wise for

(21:22):
both teams. Yes, but finding the correct compensation is probably
where it breaks down.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I mean they have some time. If it's a trade,
define deal like the money you can finagle pretty easily.
I mean the Hawks are let's see here, they're five
point four million away from the tax even so they
can even take on a little bit of money just
to make it work.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, that's not gonna have. Our hard captain are right
up against the apron, I believe so they.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Right, they are ten point five million over the first
apron one point to almost one point three below the
second apron.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah yeah, so yeah, they can't take back more money.
So that's that is where you have to get a
little creative.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, it came to me the other day, and I'm
glad I had a forum to talk it out because
I know, like you know, you're going to see a
million John Moran Trey Young ideas. But I now, especially
given what happened in Dallas this week, if Dallas is
starting to look to move on from any or all

(22:31):
of their veterans. You know, I could see that being
a mutually beneficial one, assuming they can figure out Kyrie
plus X equals Tree Young What is the X?

Speaker 1 (22:42):
I want to be a fly on the wall so
bad when Dallas tries to call teams about play. So
we're potentially considering pivoting off of Clay Thompson. You interested? Hello? Hello? Yeah, hello?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Did you see I forget? I think it was Tim
McMahon said he was considering taking a four year, eighty
million dollar deal with the Lakers. Yeah, I saw free agency,
but he took three point fifty for because he wanted
to play with Luca.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
And now now he's stuck. Yeah, should have stayed in
Golden State, buddy.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Or just shouldn't taken the Lakers deal with Luca again.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Just stayed in Cali. You have a boat and everything.
Just stay in Callie. No, that's rough. That's rough. I mean,
I actually do feel a little bit bad for him.
But at the same time, he's being compensated at a
degree to not play very well, to a point where
I'm like, you know what, You're fine, okay, you won
your championships, You're okay, But there's not a lot of

(23:50):
value there. I think it was Dan fa Valley who
said something along the lines of, look, t us Mavericks
might end up in a Washington Wizard situation where because
they didn't get a ton for Bret Beale, they didn't
get a ton for you know, the individual components they
had at hand. He and I we tried to find

(24:11):
an Anthony Davis trade and we were like very skeptical
of like any package that would return picks, because like,
what would be the insensitive doing that when you know,
this year he's out fifty four million, but over the
next two years we're looking at one hundred and ten
plus actually I believe one hundred and eleven millions. That's

(24:32):
just so much money. And I think we came up
with like that was more for like a a thinking experiment,
thought experiment, like what if it seemed came in and
offered just immediately expiring contracts and said that was it,
That's the best deal, Like I would probably consider that
if I'm Dallas, Like, obviously I'm not going to take

(24:53):
that as my first bed, Like I'm gonna call around
to see what I can get, obviously, but like if
I'm not getting the draft pick deals or I'm I
offered like seconds and longer, longer term deals. I'm probably
relinquishing that second in order to get like straight on
expiring deals.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah yeah, I mean that's where you know. I saw
Seth partnow formerly of the Athletic and of the Milwaukee Bucks,
was catching a ton of crap on Blue Sky the
other day because he was saying, like, basically, what changed,
Like why did the Mavericks agree to this trade in

(25:32):
February and then turn around and fire the guy who
made the trade even though they're the ones who signed
off on it nine months later? Like what what changed?
And you know, the argument is like the fan sentiment
was just so bad. You know, the players were saying
they like they prefer to be on the road because
all the fans were just chanting Fire and Nico all
the time, right. And I think the other part of

(25:54):
that is that Nico would not want to trade Anthony
Davis because he would he has incentive to look like
he was right to trade Luka Doncis and would be
potentially very stubborn about moving on from Anthony Davis. They
don't have that problem anymore, Like they can now admit

(26:14):
defeat and just say like we we made a mistake.
Let's recoup the value that we have. With that said,
I think you know right now he's dealing with the
calf injury and are saying like they want medical data
to show that he's at zero risk of coming back
because they're afraid he's gonna tear his achilles if he
comes back too fast. So no one is trading for

(26:37):
him until he can stay healthy and look like Anthony
Davis for a good chunk of time. I'm curious. I mean,
I know this is not about Dallas, but like, do
you think they have to move him by the trade deadline?
I don't think any of these.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Veterans, no, I like, I don't think they have to.
But like if you kind of said it yourself, like
if if he comes back and just plays for a
good chunk of games, Like let's say he comes back
and he plays like twenty games straight, like you're hoping
one of those teams have like a short memory, yeah,
and just saying oh, like again, I'm just gonna say

(27:15):
the obvious one that comes to mind here, but like
a returned to the Bulls, you know, or return to
the Bulls because he's from Chicago. That's what I meant, like,
if they're you know, they're they're coming back to earth
now they're approaching five hundred basketball, like if they're giving
up Vooch Sack Collins and Kevin Herder for you know,

(27:37):
Davis and a salary filler, like just because like a
three for one trade in the middle of a season,
it's pretty rare, but like a three for two, you
can finaggle. But like if you do that and three
straight big expiring contracts, I'm at least considering it if
I'm Dallas, because if he just goes down again, like

(27:58):
before the trade deadline or anything, like, you're entering the
summer with him having negative trade value, right, So it's
it's a dynamic question with a dynamic answer. It depends.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
It's basically just sure, sure, yeah, I mean yeah. All
that is to say, like I, you know, going back
to Atlanta, like I'm not sure that Dallas is going
to feel the need to trade these guys. I Mean.
The other side of that argument, though, is that this
is the only year that they own their first round
pick they are out of they have no control over

(28:32):
it from twenty seven through twenty thirty. So if they
can't recover from this early season tailspin, it behooves them
to tank at a certain point.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Right now, right now?

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Sure? Yeah, you know, keep anthet Like. Part of me
wonders if that Anthony Davis thing is like they already
see the writing on the wall and they are trying
to put themselves in an early season.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Oh no, Anthony, Like if we couldn't quite clear you today.
Oh by the way, Klay Thompson eighteen shots per game,
it's fine, do nuts, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Right right right? Yeah. So I don't know. I'm curious
where it all plays out because if that's.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Why they're starting Cooper Flack a point guard. Oh, I
see it now, Okay, it's sneaky. I respect it. That's
fair why they.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Signed well, Jason Kidd took about two seconds for him
to fall out of favor with Jason Kidd. But I
like if they if they do not feel the pressure
to move these guys by the trade deadline, that complicates
yeah stuff with Atlanta because Trey obviously, I mean, you
could try to do a sign and trade in the summer,

(29:37):
but that's just needlessly complicated if it hits the summer
and you're not willing to trade him or if it
hits the summer, you're not willing to resign him. You're
really risking losing him for nothing. So I think it
is like we are gonna rapidly approach decision time for
Atlanta in the next two months, where like, if they

(29:58):
continue this stretch with out him, look really good, he
comes back and either the offense sputters or the defense butters,
and now you have the sample size without him where
it's like, oh, this is what we could look like
and let's I think if nothing else, they should be
gauging the market for him, right, Yeah, no, for sure.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
By the way, the Anthony Davis thing in Chicago that
I brought up, apparently John wall has said that there
is interest there, So that's yeah, that mean, what is
it with guys going back to the Bulls, Like Chicago
guys going back to the Bulls in like their mid
late thirties and they're super injured at that point.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Well, that's the Bulls kink. They just love They always
need someone. When they introduced the from Chicago.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Right right, Oh, if the Bulls had like a dating
profile somewhere where they were like expressing their kinks. Ye,
bringing back old guys to our place. All right, Well
this was supposed to be about the Hawks, but well
cover both them and the Dallas Mavericks. So we're pretty
efficient today. Let's take a quick commercial break and then
be right back with the Sacramento Kings. All right, Brian,

(31:08):
the Kings, the Sacramento Kings. Oh boy, I mean they
had that one playoff year. That's great. That's something they
can you know, savor or I don't know what they do,
like fans might have like that one memory. That's great.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
That's the beam will always have.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
That was the beam, that's true. Yeah, it did like
light the Beam didn't really have the same effect after
that year, did it. It was like that that was
the year, the light the Beam year. This is just
such a weird team, man, and now they're open to
basically blowing it all up. I'm still upset about something

(31:52):
and I just I just need you as like a
sounding port on this. So for a long time, and
I actually think you were agreeing with me back in
the day about this, Like we were open to the
idea of sac Lavine going to the Kings because like
that would be fun to see him alongside Daron Fox
and so Demansas bonus because then at that point in time,

(32:13):
Levine was literally one of the best off ball players
in the entire damn league, like you know, the cutting,
the off ball shooting like he was. He he just
needed like playmakers alongside him to really get him up
to that level. And putting him alongside Daron Fox and
Demantasponis was supposed to be like a pretty good idea. Unfortunately,
by the way he got to the Kings that was

(32:35):
via dearon Fox going out the doors of the San
Antonio Spurse. So like now we're looking at like Bulls
West with Levigne and de Rozan Sa Bonus is still
there the league monk, Dennis Schroeder, Keigan Murray who got
that big contract and is still you know, up and down,
and well, you know, I haven't seen that much, but

(32:58):
what the hell are they supposed to do that? I
just I don't know what to make of this team.
I don't know what to make of their opportunities. I mean,
are we going to expect Murray when he comes back
this year? He hasn't played yet, but like, are we
going to expect him to be any type of breakout
candidate because we've been waiting on that for a while.

(33:18):
I don't think that's necessarily fair to expect a new
pattern for him that we haven't seen. Oh, by the way,
in speaking of their great, great floor spacing presence, they
also have Russell Westbrook who right now is on like
the early season heater that he usually goes through where
everyone's like he's changed, and then we're going to enter

(33:41):
like November, December, January, and it's gonna slowly go down
from there.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yep. Yeah, No, they're cooked. They're completely cooked. They're beyond cooked.
And I mean you're Carmichael Dave, who is a local
radio host in Sacramento, reported earlier this week that they
he believes they're going to take offers on everyone, Leavin
DeRozan Sabonis, that they're going to like really embrace a

(34:10):
full rebuild for the first time. So I think that's
what's interesting, is if they're really willing to take their
medicine because they really haven't been under vvack round a DBA.
He's always like had one toe in the will, always
be trying to win, but then we unintentionally suck and

(34:31):
then we're just gonna end up in the lottery anyway.
But we're still trying to like if they're really willing
to do what the Thunder did a couple of years ago,
or like what the Wizards and the Nets are currently doing. Now. Okay,
that's interesting because they have all of their first round
picks except for a swap with San Antonio in twenty
thirty one, so you know, unlike the Mavericks or unlike

(34:54):
the Clippers, like they if they decide to really throw
them the towel here, that probably is their fastest way
back to finding a key piece. And this year's draft
looks like it's going to have a couple of those
guys at the top of the draft, so this would
be a good year to be throwing in the towel.
I think what's tough is that, you know, the cell

(35:17):
high window for some of these guys closed long ago.
Like right, I don't know that you're gonna get positive
value for Zach Levine right now when he is owed
what he's a forty nine million dollar player option that next.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Year next year, forty nine million dollar player option. But
I mean he is playing well again, he's efficiency thing?
Can we I feel like I say this every year,
the Chucker mentality, like he's it's so annoying to me
because he's had like seven years now to disprove that,
and it's like people are still oh inefficient, chucker, Like, no, no,

(35:55):
not at all. But I hear you. The salary does
not a lot with the on floor product. Is that
the kind way to say it?

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean I think it's just his contract
was an artifact of the old CBA, and you would
not pay him that much money under the current how
things are working around the league now, maybe you trade
for him and realize, like, you know, maybe you can
get him to decline the player option and sign a

(36:25):
longer term deal at his lower value, even if he
picks up the option, Like you don't have to re
sign him to forty nine million dollars a year after that,
so it's only only a two year deal. And yeah,
to your point, I mean, he's shooting almost fifty two
percent overall forty two from three, averaging twenty four points a.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Game sixty shooting.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, man, he's a bucket. Yeah. I don't want to
take away from his scoring prowess, but I'm not sure
you're not getting like multiple first round picks for zactly
mean no, no, no, Like the Kings got him and
three first rounders for dearon Fox if I remember correctly.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, they definitely like the Bulls did not get much
in return for Levigne, correct.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
And then the same deal with Derosen. You know thirty
thirty six already or yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
I want to say yeah, because I think he's from
eighty nine so that yes, right.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, turned thirty six in August. I believe ten million
dollars of his contract he's owed like twenty five ish
million next year twenty five point seven. Yeah, so only
ten million is guaranteed. But if you're like, why are
you waiving him? And I guess if you really need
that fifteen million cap space, fine, So like he's on
a reasonable contract twenty four point seven to five this year,

(37:45):
twenty five point seven next year. No big deal salary wise,
but I mean the limitations of building around tomart Rosen
are well known at this point. It's not a three
point shooter gonna take a ton of mid range shots
going to affect how you're entire shot profile. Was I
think Steph No either retweeted it or reposted or a

(38:06):
blue sky the other day, it was like it might
have been from I guy Kevin Fagan. It was like
the rim and three profile of the Kings and the Bulls,
and then it was like the split was the Deroze
in trade and they basically flipped like they yeah, they
took you know, the Bulls with Derosen were toward the

(38:27):
bottom of the league and rim and three and then
they traded him and all of a sudden vaulted toward
the top, and the Kings were the exact opposite where
they were toward the top traded for him, are now
down near the bottom. So like, I just don't know
how much value you're getting for either of those guys.
I think so Bonus I think would have value league
wide m but even him, like.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, say it, It's okay, you can say it. The
non spacing element is not great.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Just a non spacing, non rim protecting big yeah, great
regular season player, multi time All Star. Yeah. I don't know,
especially he signed around twenty seven percent of the cap
each of the next three years, so not thirty not

(39:19):
thirty five, but still near max money. I don't know.
I think it's just challenging to build around that archetype
unless I mean, like unless you're Nicola Jokic and you're
just the best passing big man in NBA history, and
you're out. You know, you're a better defender than you
get credit for. Like Sabonis is a worse defender than Jokic,

(39:42):
is not as good of a passer as Yokic. Jokic
has turned into a three point shooter, was not a
couple of years ago. But Sabonis, you know, shooting seventeen
point six percent from three point ranges this year and
it's just never taken a high volume of threes. Like
Yokic is just a better scorer than someone Yoga, is
better in every facet of basketball than Sibonis, and like, so, yes,

(40:04):
you can win a championship with that archetype. If it's
Nicola Jokic, I don't know, Like who I can't think
of who you would pair Sabonis with.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
There's one I have one, and it's not when before
a change I'm actually gonna mix it up.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Is Anthony Davis.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
No, No, he is the only player who can justify
the presence of Jaron Jackson Junior because he's such a
good rebound, yeah, and the playmaking and like the interior
presence because then you have JJJ on the outside. Those
two can actually play on. They can also have some

(40:42):
inverted pick and rolls where like Sabonis is getting a
screen for him and like getting in like driving towards
the basket and just finding Jaren on a lob. But like,
the rebounding issues for Jaren are just going to not evaporate,
but they're going to mean less because you have a
guy in there who can just go in and say, yeah,
I'm going to grab fourteen rebounds. Oh, Jared, what's your

(41:04):
career high for your career fifteen in a game? Oh yeah,
I'll do that by halftime.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
That's that's that's the guy, right, that's the fit.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, I could certainly see it. The issue being you're
now devoting sixty percent of the salary cap to two bigs, and.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's why they should never have given him two.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Hundred and forty million, right which one?

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Oh yeah, both, yeah, both, Yeah, that's fair. It's no,
but you're right, it's it's and also I think he's
is this fair? I don't know if it's fair. When
I watch the Kings or Sabona specifically, he seems a
little checked out.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah yeah, is that me? Just like I mean, like
on the scale of one to John Moran. He's not
John Morant, right, but yeah, I mean that whole team
just I don't know. I don't totally understand what happened,

(42:10):
Like they're not their rotations and usage of personnel is strange,
Like I don't know why Kean Ellis is only getting
eighteen minutes a game when their defense is as bad
as it is, Like he's your one of your best defenders,
if not your best defender on the team, like maybe
you was the guy who was actually very good last year.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
I mean, it's also part of like the the internal structure, right,
like Doug Christie, we don't really know whether he's a
good coach or not, and like because the roster construction
is bad, but that doesn't help the issue. But so
far he hasn't looked like it, like if they're going
to rebuild, I hope it's like from the top down.

(42:52):
The issue is and Kings fans have been absolutely correct
in voicing this. There are two concerns. One, you actually
laid it out Vivendie, like, as long as he's in charge,
you don't really know if this is going to be
a competent rebuilt. Secondarily, we've heard this song and dance before.

(43:12):
Oh yeah, we're considering tearing it all down, and then
you go into a retool and it's like more of
the same. So like Kings fans with that report came
out that now they're opening, you know, the idea of rebuilding,
they were all like, yeah, we'll believe it when we
see it. They're just there. There's no belief from the
fan base this is going to happen. And that is

(43:33):
because the Kings have basically leaked this before and nothing
really happened, and was like, oh, yeah, no, we're restructuring.
Mm hmm. Yeah, because when the company restructures, that's when
you really make a difference. Sure, yes, it's it's just blooney.
They're gonna trade DeMar and then they're gonna say, now

(43:53):
we're on the right path. Yeah unless you tradeing for Luca.
Sure yeah, yep, yep, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean,
like you're built like you thought. Dennis Shruter and Russell
Westbrook were the answer at point guard and like Russ whatever,

(44:14):
I mean you signed him.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, at the end of the training camp to him
nimum deal. That's fine. They gave Dannis Shruter a lot
of money they did, Like, I just don't know what
compel them to think Dennis Shruter is going to be
the answer to all of our problems at point guard.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Well, they were sad that he declined that eighty four
million dollar offer from the Lakers. Look, one California club
needs to pay you.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Obviously, we'll make it up to you and give you
forty five million dollars or whatever it was.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Oh and here's another thing that bothers me greatly with
them when they make draft picks. It's super old guys
all the time, and they they keep hiding behind this
you know fall side geology of oh, well, older players
are more NBA ready. You know, older rookies are more
NBA ready. Like I'm actually gonna reference Kevin Ferrigan again

(45:12):
twice in one podcast. That's rare, Like he has accurately
pointed this out for years that there's no correlation between
that statement of reality. Like guys who come into the
league at twenty three, twenty four, usually it's the other
way around. Like if a young player comes in and
is kind of you know, if he's good right off
the bat like that, that's he's destined to be. That

(45:34):
Like if it's not about, you know, the nineteen compared
to twenty three. It's about how you approach the game.
And these guys who've been in college forever just comes
in with this sort of stubborn mindset of I know
how I'm supposed to play, Like, no, you're not even
like you know, you're not really changing your game for
the NBA. Like you've been the star guy for your

(45:55):
college team for four years and now you can't acclimate
to being a bit player. It's like, give me youth
every single day of the week. Yeah, And the Kings
are like, no, let's let's draft Nee Clifford. Who is
going to who's going to be twenty four in February?

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And Nick Clifford's been good for them,
or at least like.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
He's been okay, shooting thirty six percent from the field
for the year. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's great. Gradually, congratulations
on being this next topo Siphalotionnie Clifford. That's great. I
love that. That's great. Just that's that's worth a first
round pick for sure in a strong draft no less. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah, Well so you brought up Jared Jackson Jr. And
the Grizzly Is, although more just Jaron Jackson Junior as
a potential to Bonis partner. Are there any other teams
that come to mind for you that's like this team
would make sense with amounts.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, yes, but like at forty two million, it's just
so hard to like make the finances work, you know.
I I do think he'd be interesting in Los Angeles
next to Luca, Like, I that would be fun because
I understand Luca is, you know, not necessarily a great

(47:19):
spot up shooter, like he's more of a shot creator
for set for himself and that's a bonus, doesn't have
a lot of spacing presence. But somehow, some way those
two could make it work. They're just too smart. I
think that that would be fun. Maybe they can get
there if Lebron leaves and you know, you don't resign

(47:39):
Ruyjachima and you find a way to get Jared vanderbil
off your cap because why give him that long a contract. Brian,
that that that you know, we're talking about the Lakers,
but like that, I don't understand that there's a part
of me that also wants to see like a yoke hitch.

(48:00):
Siboni's frontline because that would be fun as hell, just
the intraplay between those two. But again the contractual element Miami, no,
because they have Kiltleware. I would rather go that route
with him and Bam And like, you can probably get
a ton for Bam if you want to. I'm intrigued

(48:21):
by the idea of him on the Wolves as a
go Bear replacement. Okay, yeah, but again, like why would
the Kings taken you know, Rudy Gobert back for Demons
and Sabonis?

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Right yeah, it would have to be like telling him
if he was actually a thing.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Right well, I mean you know, you you trade for
the draft pick to select a guy and then don't
play him.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
That's smart, right yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah. The Suns next to Book I wouldn't hate, but
like they just went in on come on watch.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yeah, so that's Mark Williams.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
And Mark and Mark Williams too.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah yeah, I mean I could see like the Warriors
just with their you know, everyone eats type of offense
or like always moved the ball type of offense, and
like Draymond, Yeah, the spacing would get tricky with the
bonus Butler and uh and Draymond. Yeah. Well kaminga too. Yeah,

(49:33):
I would assume he's going to move to.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
The bench, yeah, or be involved in the trade package.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he probably would be.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
It's yeah, it's it's not an easy fix, and it's
it goes back to a point that I've made repeatedly
over the past twelve months, and you've been you know,
you've you've had to put up with with my my
brant about this as well. Players who aren't natural shooters anymore.
It's just it's so difficult to justify these heavy, heavy

(50:04):
price tags around them unless they're just so utterly elite
defensively and in like two or three other areas like shooting.
To me, it's become this skill that kind of goes
in and says, well, if you can't shoot, you need
to have like three other skills. But like we can
manage with virtually nothing if you're just a shooter, because

(50:24):
then you can bend defenses. Guys who just aren't natural
in that department are looking at a rough time. Like again,
there's a reason I'm nervous about sion with it, you know,
and out that's not even including the allegations. But like
moving forward, Paulo Bankero, like there are a lot of
these guys where I'm like, what is that future going

(50:45):
to look like if you can't hit that shot at
a consistent rate? And some bonus is unfortunately within that group.
So what do we think here to wrap up the Kings?
Is there anyone worth keeping, like where they have to
like make it a priority and say, no, we're going

(51:06):
to keep this guy. Or is everyone should everyone be
on the table, including Keith and Murray?

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yeah, I mean I think everyone should be on the table. Yeah,
I don't think anyone has proven themselves as like we
must keep this player moving forward. I think, right, you
don't have to move Keithan Murray if you don't get
a decent offer for him, And you don't have to
move Kean Ellis Orney Clifford if you don't get decent
offers for that. But yeah, like why not. But by

(51:36):
the time you are good again, if you're really committing
to this, if you're really committing to tearing down Levine,
de Ros and sibonas everyone, by the time you're good again,
those guys might all be gone anyway.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah, Levine is the interesting part to me because, like
I hear you in that he's not going to fetch
like first round ors and whatnot. But going back to
the shooting point, I just raised that he does have
like he should be able to be implemented somewhere else.
The contract is such an issue, like if he was

(52:08):
on Demartin Rosen's contract, he'd be such an like an
attractive trade piece. Yeah, like twenty four million, twenty five pouces.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Oh sure, yeah, but you gotta get him on that
contract first.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Right, that's the thing. Like maybe, and that's your point,
like maybe if you extend him, but like I think
he's still looking at thirty. But I do wonder if
there are teams out there willing to say, you know what,
let's just pay the bill for Lavigne this year and
then hope we can go in and sign him to
an extension where he turns down the player option and

(52:43):
he's we settle in for like a lower number, but
we attach more years. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't hate
that if a good team came in at no, Like
I don't know how they'll match those salaries. But like
Denver is a team that I've been curious about for
like a levine fixed for years, but they just don't
have the contracts.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, unless you're moving Cam Johnson or Jamal or Aaron Gordon,
who you should not. He's just been too good.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah yeah, Like even even with Cam who's only a
twenty one million, that's so hard to get up there.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, So to your point, we could have just ended
up the segment when you're opened up by saying they're cooked.
They're totally cooked.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Just throw a stick of dynamite at them and call it.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
A day, right, All right, final commercial break and then
we'll be back with the Clippers. The Los Angeles Clippers
bride no more Bradley BeO for this season. That was
an hip injury. I don't want to be harsh, but
Chris Paul, like, the Kings looks pretty cooked. Looks like

(53:56):
that is probably a good idea that this is this
last year because Auchi Auchi that is that is not
looking pretty. Kawhi is in and out of the lineup.
James Harden is forty six, can't really maintain that high
level consistency factor. All Like he's had a good year,
don't get me wrong, but like there have been so

(54:18):
many games where he's been bawling out for a period
and then he's just been completely invisible for the remainder
of the game. Like and and that's not to say
that I'm putting that on at his feet. He's thirty six,
Like this is perfectly normal, but like you just can't
expect him to go out there and save your ass
on a night to night basis that like that ship
has sailed, and that is fair. And you know, as

(54:41):
much as I love Ivich Subac, he's not someone to
go out there and you know, take guys off the
driple and get you twenty five forty points. That's not
gonna happen. I am, however, pissed that John Collins isn't
being used more.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
That that's your big takeaway about the cliff Any boy.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
No, I mean the Clippers. The Clippers are in trouble,
but I'm just saying they're not really helping themselves. Like
they went out and made this trade. They traded nor
away Norman Powell, who was really good for them, and
now they're giving John Collins like twenty five minutes and
nine shots per game. Can we agree that there's something
missing here, like he should feature more than he does.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
I mean, there's a lot missing the Clippers right now.
I could certainly agree there's something missing with the Clipper All.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Right, well, then go ahead, what is missing outside of
Chris Paul, who's definitely missing on seventy six percent of
his shots?

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Right, Yeah, Chris Paul is out of the rotation for
a reason right now, although it might have to be.
I mean, Gaway has the foot injury. Right They've already
said he's he's gonna travel. They have a big road
trip coming up. He is going to travel on the
road trip, but unclear if he's going to play at
all or when he will be back. You know, the

(55:59):
theory of the Clippers is coming into the season was
that they went eleven deep or even twelve deep, that
you you know, you have the depth to withstand Kawhi
missing time or James Harden missing time or you know,
to your point about Harden like gassing out, Yes, which
is not surprising for a thirty six year old. But

(56:19):
in theory, that is why you sign a Chris Paul,
and that's why you sign a Bradley Beal so that
you don't have to rely on James Harden to play
thirty five minutes a game in the regular season. You
you know, keep him fresh for the playoffs, especially with
Beale now done for the year, Kawhi already hurt, They're
having to lean on James Harden more than they probably
would want to this early in the season. Now, Otherwise,

(56:41):
I think it's there's still just because they have so
many new pieces and Beal, Brook, Lopez, Chris Paul, some
of the young guys that are trying to work in.
I think they're still just in like a feeling out
of John Collins. Obviously, they're still in a feeling out
period where they're just trying to figure out like which
common nations of players work best together, and having Kawhi

(57:03):
and Bialt in and out of the lineup is only
further complicating that. So I don't want to read too
much into their struggles yet. I don't want to like
say they're absolutely screwed bury them, They're no chance they're
going to make the playoffs. But I mean, like they
went into the season, I believe they're over under preseasons

(57:23):
forty nine and a half wins like they This is
not like the Kings, who were expected to be a
mid thirties win team, like the Clippers were supposed to
be very good playoff caliber team. Not on the OKC
Denver tier, but probably on that next tier in the
West with you know, the Lakers, with Minnesota, with Houston,

(57:47):
it is a surprise that they are off to this
bad of a start, More so, I would say than really,
you know, I'm not totally shocked Memphis is off to
a slow start after trading away Desmond Bine obviously not shocked.
Dallas is off to a slow start, right, I'm not shocked.
The Pelicans are off to a slow start, The Kings
are off to a slow start. The Clippers, I'm I'm
you know, I believed that this team was going to

(58:09):
be very good. Yeah, So I think what's the most
concerning from their perspective is that, unlike Dallas, who does
own their twenty twenty six first round pick, the Los
Angeles Clippers do not own their for twenty twenty six
first round pick.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Oh dude, tell our listeners who owns that pick?

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Mister suboric in the gift that keeps on giving and
possibly keeps on giving for another two years because they
also owe a twenty twenty seven picks wow too. With
a defending champion Oklahoma City Thunder as the final remnants
of the Paul George trade that already cost them shake
gilig Is Alexander, the reigning MVP in case you forgot,

(58:48):
and the pick that became Jalen Williams. And now you know,
if they don't pull out of this at some point,
it's seeming like they might at least send a lot
and if not, a relatively high lottery pick to OKC
in twenty twenty six, which is just what the rest
of the league needs. They really can't wait for, okay

(59:09):
see to get Yeah, they get the Clippers pick, they
get the Sixers pick if it falls outside the top four,
they get the Jazz pick if it falls outside the
top eight. So when Lloyd Markenen goes missing for two months,
I think we'll yeah, it's gonna go on a sabbatical.
Uh yeah, it's that's thunder. The rich are only about

(59:31):
to get richer thanks to the Los Angeles Clippers.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Well, at least the Brooklyn Nets and the Los Angeles Clippers.
Both those two big markets created champions out of the Celtics.
And it's under Yeah, so like kudos, Yes, that is
why we're against the super trades. By the way, that's
why you and I are always hammering those trades because like,
don't get don't get panicked like it.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
Yeah, if you look back, it's very where that the
team that acquires the superstar ends up on the winning
side of that deal long term. Like, yeah, the one
I always point to is the Dwight Howard the four
team deal where Orlando was like the only team to
win that trade in retrospect, like all every other team

(01:00:16):
had to blow up in their face almost immediately, like
I think within a year, and then Orlando actually got.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Yeah I remember that, Andrew Bidam went bowling.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
That's correct, yep. And then Howard left the Lakers after
a year. I believe Andre Guidalo was in that trade
for Denver and then left for the Warriors. So that
also created a champion, does not to one of the
teams involved in the trude.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
The ripple effects of multi team trades sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean, yes this one as well.
Uh yeah, I like it's very easy to dump on
the Clippers for making that deal in retrospect, it was
a terrible idea. It did lead, you know, to their credit,
it did lead to the first Western Conference Finals appearance
in franchise history. So it was not a total bust

(01:01:06):
in that perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
But and they have Kawhi Leonard as a as a
direct result of that deal as well. That was the
demand he made to sign there, because otherwise he'd gone
to what the Lakers, yeah, right, where they would have
then invested in some company too.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
An LA based company or an LA based recognization, either way,
I was about to circumvent the ary.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
No, but like that, I get the logic behind what
the Clippers did, and I still to this day, will
never get the logic behind what Brooklyn did. Never agent
Paul Piers, I was still like that, that's still just
oh but okay, So I do agree with you that
the Clippers, like there's still time eleven games and if

(01:01:52):
Kawhi comes back, he's just he is. We saw it
in the playoffs last year as well, like when Kawhi
is Kawhi, when he is hell, it doesn't even matter
that he's thirty four, Like he will just still play
at such a ridiculously high level, like last year in
that first round series against Dever twenty five points, seven

(01:02:12):
and a half rebounds, almost five assists, fifty four percent
from the field, forty from three got to the line
over five times per game, barely turned it over. The
defense was awesome, Like he was one of those elite
two way players, like the two way superstars. And to me,
it always comes down to, like, if he's healthy going
into a major stretch and he plays like twenty five

(01:02:34):
forty games in a row, you can probably have one
of the leagus, but you could actually have the league's
best record over that time frame because he's that good. So, I,
like you, I'm not counting them out, but I'm getting
hella nervous about their start.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, I mean, Kawhi, even if he comes back from this,
who's to say he's gonna stay healthy the rest of
the year, right, I mean, Mgdonovic has also been very
bad at the start of the year.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Oh and he was bad last year too, and in
the summer.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Nick Batoom shooting thirty percent overall, Like they're they're just
built around a bunch of old, unathletic, slow guys. And
you know, they seem to have made the same mistake
that the Sixers did last year, where they like were
trying to build with the playoffs in mind, but forgot
you need to win enough games in the regular season

(01:03:30):
to get to the playoffs. And now, I mean, I'll
be curious to see because we saw it a little
bit the other night against the Nuggets where they went
to a couple of their young guys Jordan Miller and
Kobe Sanders, I believe, in the first half of that game,
and those guys were just like absolutely on fire. They

(01:03:50):
you know, the Clippers got down big early, were up
I think like close to ten points against the Nuggets
at one point in the second quarter, and then you'll
GI's just sing annihilated him. Yeah, which is crazy because
they also lost lost Cam Johnson and Christian Brown to
injuries in that game, so down two starters, they still

(01:04:11):
win by double digits because Jokis just dropped fifty five
on their head. So I mean, yeah, I like their
defense is just completely unconnected, which you know, you again,
like when you make these kinds of offseason moves, not
totally surprising that they haven't really found a rhythm on
either end of the court, but you got to like

(01:04:31):
start making some choices and figuring out like, Okay, this
group of guys is going to play together, you know,
barring foul trouble boweling injuries, Like they need to start
developing chemistry with one another, so we just stop making
some of these bonehead mistakes that they have been, especially
on defense.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
So I agree with all of you said. I don't
think there's like a big solution, as we said, because
even if they go out and like try to rebuild
the because they don't control their own draft picks, that
is kind of pointless because they can't really bottom out.
This is a team that just has to keep trying
to win, really and that is that is a tall

(01:05:14):
task and that is an issue. It's I'm not sure
if that's going to work out. So like, the only
way we can wrap up the clips Bry is by
really shrucking our shoulders and going, well, good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Luck, guys. Find the fountain of youth and you'll find yeah,
or hot top time machine, go back five years and
you guys are gonna win three championships with this roster.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Right. It's not a hot top time machine in the
in your living room?

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
There?

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
What was that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
That was our garage opening? Nice?

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Nice?

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
I don't want to drink it. The dog did not bark. Hey,
there we go away. He's curious. He's thinking about it. Yeah,
good boy, there we go, There we go. He doesn't
have any hot takes about the Clippers. I've been talking
to it all week about him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
That's great. So I actually want to wrap up this
episode on a positive note because the Clippers aren't exactly
a positive note, and I think you can agree that
the Kings aren't either. We need to have a very
serious but at the same time very fun and those
two things aren't mutually exclusive conversation about a guy we've referenced,

(01:06:30):
like we've sprinkled his name all across the podcast just
because he's become the standard of comparison nicolea. Jokic. Yeah,
he's leading the league in rebounds, He's leading the league
in assists. He has an almost forty PR thirty nine
point three PR. His true shooting percentage is seventy seven.

(01:06:51):
That also leads the league. Obviously, he's leading the league
in assist percentage as well. This guy is so potent
and offensive player and have been for the past I
want to say, six or seven years. Are we at
that point, sir where we have to talk about how

(01:07:15):
oh that was a delayed reaction right there.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Yeah, he had no Clippers takes, but he clearly feels
strongly about YO training.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Well, I mean, look, he his names me Khan, right,
like almost like George Miken spelt.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
The same way. Yeah, right. He just respects big men.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Right, So now I'm going to ask the question, yeah,
or actually it's two questions. One is Nikola Jokish the
best big man of all time? And two? And I
can't believe I'm actually saying this out loud. Has his
prime now exceeded the prime of both Michael Jordan and
Lebron James Woo?

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Now we're getting spicy statistically, right, I think I don't know.
I mean, both MJ and Lebron were much better defenders
than him, and I like to use the rings argument,
but like, I think that also matters. Yeah, You're you're

(01:08:14):
not gonna be able to make a compelling goat case
if he has one ring in that rame. And I
mean that just speaks to the incredible nature of Lebron
and MJ. Two. Like we right, their primes were so
so dominant that they could single handedly dragged teams further

(01:08:37):
than they had a business going. He's certainly up there.
I mean, like I forget I Bleacher Report we did
a top one hundred of all time over the summer,
and I'm trying to remember where Jokic landed in that.
I believe he was definitely top twenty, probably be higher.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Than that, even it's the one ring that holds him back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Let me see, I think this is it. No Google,
I do not want Ai mode go get.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Then what about the other question before we get into
the mic abroadhom stuff like best big man of all time?
At least? Okay, can we at least if we want
to like headshit a little bit, we certainly agree that
he's the best offensive big man of all time?

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Right, yes, yes, so okay, we had him seventeenth overall.
The bigs ahead of him Kevin Garnett, which I think,
come on, yeah, I think you can make an Okay hakeem.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Two rings over like I'm taking yokich over at kakem. Sorry,
Wilt see that that's so difficult because the era is
so different. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
This one is where it's good to hurt you. It's
gonna hurt your soul. Oh, I know where you're going to,
Tim Duncan.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Yeah, I mean Tim, Tim's like the two way and
the rings and like that. That's the conversation, right, I
like I have I have yo kich over Shack, and
I understand Shack had with four titles and that works
in his favor, Like it just comes down to the
title stuff a lot. But I mean, yo, Kisch, like,

(01:10:28):
let me just reach you his prime like the so
far but I know, I know, yeah, no, no, not
just you also look that we it's a podcast, no right,
twenty six point eight points, twelve point three rebounds, nine
point one assists, fifty eight point eight percent from the field,
thirty eight from three, and eighty two from the line

(01:10:50):
on six and simps per game, Like that's ridiculous. That
is that is so utterly offensively dumb that I just
I can't find any other big man in the history
of the game who offensively at least comes even close
to this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Yeah, I think if you want to argue he's the
best offensive big man of all time, that it isn't
much more compelling argument than best of all time. And
I'm conversation. Yeah, I mean, we had him seventeenth overall,
and you can argue that was a couple of spots
too low. So like, yes, he's already in that conversation.
He has another title, He's gonna he has another title.
He's probably cracking the top ten, which is gonna make

(01:11:31):
Kobe stands lose their minds because we did not have
Kobe in the top ten.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Nor should you, I'm sorry, you should never you should
you should never have kbe in the top ten.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Yeah, Kareem is the other one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Oh, Kareem. See, I knew there was like a big
man that was floating around. I was thinking Bill Russell
with like Kareem is, Like, yeah, Kareem is. I feel
as though in time Kareem has become underrated, like he was.
He was so good and like the fact that you
didn't count blocks for the first four years of his career,

(01:12:04):
It's just it's so annoying because he would absolutely have
been the all time leader. Well again if Will might
have had Milton Milton Wilden and and Bill might have
had a say there. But like in terms of like
the counting stats, well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Kareem also play. He played twenty total seasons.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Right, and he had like almost three tho two hundred
blocks on his career. But like in those early days,
the first four years, you can't tell me that he
didn't average like three hundred blocks per game over the
first four years.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah, which shot just all shot around the rim. Yeah, exactly,
all these are gonna have the yeah like he yeah,
Jokich is in that conversation, is gonna move higher in
that conversation. But I'm I will draw a line it
best big man ever already and the Primes one is interesting,

(01:12:59):
but I think two way play you gotta take it.
It has to be some consideration and also just playoff
like obviously you know right, playoff success is not an
individual metric. That is a team thing. Like Jokic, as
good as Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon are, he does
not have a Scottie Pippen on his team, does not
haveing Kyrie Irving and his prime on his team. So

(01:13:21):
like Lebron and wait, I guess, like that's another question.
What was Lebron's prime, like a freaking ten year prime.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Yeah, yeah, Lebron's prime was It was definitely Miami. Miami
was like Nicole that was like that is also kind
of funny when you look back at his career like
that those four years, which is like the team he's
played the fewest amount of games for it, that's that's
when you got like the best freaking Lebron James years,

(01:13:53):
Like Miami just got like prime Lebron for four years.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
He goes to Cleveland makes four more runs, like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, no, no, he was he was fantastic.
I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying like physically, like
in his physical peak and like the like the the
efficiency level and like everything, like his Miami years were
definitely his best, just in terms of influence. Yeah, all right,
so Yokic Shack, like Shaq was a better defender, but

(01:14:23):
he also rarely cared on that end of the floor.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
And I don't want to give him credit for like,
oh if he bothered, he could have been better, because no,
if you don't, if you don't bother, if you don't care,
I'm not going to give you credit for something you
didn't do. Like sure, so I think they're a bit
they're comparable is probably the wrong word, but like the
the the extent of which Joki is better offensively than Shaq,

(01:14:52):
I just take that over the the gap in defense.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
I mean, he's a better passer. Shack was a more
dominant scorer than Kich Like I think Shack, you know,
to your point about Koreem being underrated, like prime Shack
because he played for so long after his prime, right,
Like prime Shack gets kind of forgotten. But during that
Lakers run, like no one was stopping that. The only

(01:15:21):
thing stopping Shack was the free throw.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Line, right, And that's something to Jokic's credit, Like that's
never stopped him. There isn't a hack of Yokic.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
Right, right, So like that's I mean, Jokich is certainly
the most more well rounded of the two, but Shaq
was just so physically dominant in a way that it
would be tough for me to put. I don't know,
it's a it's an interesting debate because I don't think
there's really a right answer there.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
This is all to say, and we're gonna wrap up now,
but this is all to say that just having just
a ridiculous season. He's having a ridiculous prime and we
need to appreciate it, because Jesus Christ, this is like,
this is goat stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a lem and say
the jokimb debates are over now.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
I'm so glad that Sixers fans went to bat for
like three years on that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
You know, it was a it was a conversation for
a while, but conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
Sure, for a short while. It was a conversation, correct.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
And we had our fun. And now we will retreat
in the background and we'll watch Tyrese Maxi.

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
Yeah. Now, now you can have Tyrese Maxi versus Jamal
Murray debates and probably win.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Not probably, I'll take that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Yeah, that's a lot better. Brian Sapporik, thank you so
much for joining the show once again. And we uh,
we went through the Hawks, Dallas unexpectedly, the Kings, the Clippers,
and some goat talk honestly, because you know what, sometimes
you just need to talk about a potential goat. That's right,
that is fun. Have a great weekend to you. Oh

(01:16:58):
before you go, is there anything you up to these
days that you need to let our listeners know about?

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
Ummm, just can't say no, just no, nothing special. We
got some stuff in the works, but not uh, I'll
plug it next time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Nice sounds good to everyone listening in. Thank you for
doing so. Until we speak again, have a good one
and stay safe everyone.