November 21, 2025 • 25 mins
Mort & Dan discuss the Pelicans, which.... sigh.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
What is up?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Fellasiko's on Dana Valley coming at you with Mort Jensen
of the NBA Podcast, of Yahoo Sports, of Forbes, of
HBO Max.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And what he's known most for only fans. We're here
to talk. We are be on the lookout.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We're supposed to do a deep dive into rookies in
the Eastern Conference. That'll be coming probably the next day
after this drops. But the Pelicans fire Willy Green, So
we're gonna talk about it. And the question I have
to you more is, now that you know the Pelicans
have fired Willy Green, what changes about the way you
feel about this team?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah, Oh yeah, they're on the path now. Now look,
Joe Dumars is still heading this team. Gail Benson still
owns this team. So this feels very much like one
of those situations with Nico Harrison where yeah, was he
doing a great job?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Not really? Was he the crux of all issues? Also,
no way, more deeper rooted issues remains. There's also some
legal issues hanging over signed Williamson, your best player, which
could also affect both your season and the players standing
within the league. You know, considering what could happen, Uh,
(01:25):
everything is just dumb and weird with this organization to
a point where we're even seeing the fan base so
upset that they're kind of lashing out at Derrek Queen
for the trades made by Joe Dumarsh, which I just
very much met against, Like, that's not Derek Queen's fault.
Like I have not known, no, no, not big members
(01:46):
of the family like I've seen it. I've seen it.
Not like the prominent fans that we know and who
are occasionally visiting us on the podcasts, they are very
much supporters of mister Queen. But I have seen I
have seen fans mentioned that, oh, like, you know, why
are you not playing like the player that we gave
(02:07):
up all that all up for that up four because
that was the expectation, right, Like, first you made the
Pacers trade to get that pick, then you looped that
pig in with the Atlanta's trade to get number thirst seen,
and then you picked Derrek Queen. So I think people
were some people were expecting Derrek Queen to become something
(02:32):
that he was never supposed to be. And that's unfortunate
because that is not at the feet of him, that
is at the feet of Joe Dumars.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
It's not at the feet of Willie Green either, because
of how a few games he had being in charge
with Derek Queen's development. I think what I don't understand,
and I don't think anyone can understand. And Schmidt, dou
of in the know, has been all over this. Yes,
apparently David Griffin wanted to get rid of Willy Green,
but owner Gail been And said no, and that it
(03:01):
was a borderline stipulation that Willie Green remained with the
Pelicans when.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Joe Dumars and Troy Weaver took over.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Joe do Mars came out and I found Schmidt noted
that the event media availability had was on zoom and
I don't think you could even see him after the fact,
which is just that's not a real level of accountability
to me. What is the justice his justification for Why
did you let Willie Green even start the season so
that you got to this point when all signs were
(03:29):
pointing towards he's gonna get fired. They wouldn't let James
Barrego be a real candidate for the Knicks because they
kind of knew, yeah, we're gonna need him to be
our interim head coach at some point what type of
a process is that? It's just what is the as
Joe do I'm I'm actually speaking from Joe Dumars's perspective here.
If you're gonna get paid and your boss's stipulation is,
(03:50):
but I'm not gonna let you change the head coach,
I kind of understand it. But he's also trying to
take ownership of it a little bit by saying, well,
I watched the Pelicans eight years ago and Willie Green
was I kind of liked his vibe there.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
That's not what he said, of course, but he referenced just.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Watching the Pelicans two seasons ago and thought Willy Green
deserved a chance, and so you believe that the chance
was we'll just give him fewer than fifteen games into
the season and we'll wait until after they start zero
to six to where this isn't even rock bottom for
the Pelicans right now that I would have argued was
closer to have they even reached rock bottom is a question.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's what this all means.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It is for me, and I think it doesn't materially
change any thoughts I have about the because what maybe
we'll see different ways, but we'll see different rotations from
James Barrego. We'll probably see a different offense from James Barrego.
But what are you expecting? Like, what was Willy Green
not doing enough of?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Is there? I just don't, especially with the personnel he's given.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It seems by all intents and purposes he lost the
locker room is the thing that I've heard a lot
that's a problem. So I'm not like that should be
laid in his feed. But just do you think this
organization did He's not being announced before games anymore and
was it under the guise of well fans were gonna
boo him? And it's I just everything this organization has
(05:12):
done for a while, but just within the like since
June or since that Pace initial Pacers trade. It's just,
you know what the science most scientific word is.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
It's icky. It makes me feel icky.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
That's a good word, and it's it's true. Everything feels
rotten and dumb, and it's it's it's one of those
questions where the fan base can they at any point
feel comfortable and change is made as long as s
Gale Benson is owning that team, because like, look in
(05:47):
when Joe Dumars and immediately you can't trust his decision
making process. He's presumably going to be there for a while.
Let's say, by some miracle he has a moment of
yill self realization and just goes to the organization says, look,
I've made some really dumb decisions in my very short
(06:09):
stint here. I'm going to resign immediately because I am
depally incompetent even if that were to happen.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Which it won't, because there's only thirty of these jobs. Well,
is there really only thirty of these jobs? With the
way the executive executive hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Will right now, there might be sixty.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It might be sixty.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Sorry, I got sixty. But like, do you trust Gail
Benson to bring in someone new who can actually handle matters?
Or do you who do you like? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Could I ask another question?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, let's say you could pick whoever you wanted to
run the Pelicans. Do you think that that who's going
to come in and with the resources it seems like
Gail Benson and co. Are prepared to give them. Who
is actually going to turn this thing around? If you
put Sam Presty in New Orleans, I'm assuming the asset
management would be better, But do you expect because there
(06:58):
probably be a mandate. You can't rebuild for an entire
season and a half. Right, they probably looked at Okac's
rebuild post Russell Westbrook or whatever you want to claim
it the Stars.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Wow, that lasted way too long.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah. No, if whoever you bring in, if that person
is not going to give in going to be given
the necessary bway, what's the point. And that's where I
think the fan base is at right now. Like the
issues are with ownership, and as I've said for years
on the NBA podcast, like that is the biggest advantage
in sports. If you have good ownership, that is by
(07:34):
far the most important indicator of success. The Pels do
not have that now currently. They do not also have
a great front office. So it's like it's a double whaemmy.
Like you're hurting the long term prospects, you're hurting the
short term prospects, and nothing is working. It's super frustrating.
You have, like I mentioned at the top, you have
(07:55):
a superstar with a rape allegation hanging over his head.
You have a roster that generally speaking is not working
out that well. There's not a lot of cohesion there.
You just made a coaching change like fourteen games, fourteen
games or actually twelve games into the season. It's just
all I is a good word. It's blah is another
(08:20):
like just the sheer trade of you know CJ for
Jordan Poole as well?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Just yeah, why are you adding money as an organization
that is notoriously cheap?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Why are you adding money beyond?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And don't tell me that Jordan Poole just needs a
change of role and he'll be fine in New Morlands.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
He has been awful to start the season.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I I wonder, well, do you think that this will
at least provide a semblance of clarity as to who
is really kind of running things for the front office?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Because Kevin.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The villain, but I guess the soon to be villain,
but because Kevin Allie's name is already cropping up. And
if they hire Kevin Alie, this this is Troy Weavers show, right,
Isn't that abundantly clear?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yes? And that's where things get murky and depressing. And look,
at least the only silver lightning we can sum this
up pretty quickly. The only silver lining they have here
is that they got Jeremiah Fears and Durk Queen in
the draft Queen I still like, although you know, you
got picked way too high, but like he's a good player.
(09:25):
Jeremiah Fears is a guy who I think highly of
moving forward, and that's about it. Like Trey Murphy's by
far their best trade asset at this point, and they'll
probably need to utilize that trade asset to get some
draft picks in return at some point that they can
use because long term this is this is looking like
(09:46):
a complete shit show.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
What I think is also going to be interesting too,
is would you expect them because even when you hear
Kevin Ollie's name mentioned, I wonder if they would pay
what is necessary to a head coach to get what
I think Kevin Ollie would command, because this seems like
the quintessential. They're gonna end up hiring either a retread
or a first timer. I don't know what James Barrego
falls into, but he would probably be someone who, Okay,
(10:11):
he only has the experience in Charlotte, so he's not
going to command top dollar and just doesn't have money,
doesn't have the same mark.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
When you hear Kevin.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Allie's name, I think people just go, oh, that might
or maybe he is someone who would be cheap. But
I've seen, oh there's Tom Thibodeau's out there and Michael
Malone's out the.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
First of all tips coaching Zion would be a disaster.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Let's just make that clear, right.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
They're not going to pay what it takes to get
one of the bigger names whoever you view as the
biggest coach, like even maybe some of the more well
known coaching quote unquote prospects. They're not going to be
the team that's going to compensate them enough to get them.
And so I'm very curious to see where this ends up.
I almost expect it to land with well, James Barrego
is going to get the job because he might he
(10:51):
might be good, but it feels like he he will
be within their price range.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, because that's how they operate. And I wonder if
ownership has a good grasp of you know, the salary
cap and whatnot. I don't think so like things. So
I'm not an NFL guy, so you can correct me
if I'm wrong here, but it does seem like the
Saints with the who has the same ownership group, if
(11:16):
I'm not mistaken, are also being run like a trash
organization at this stage. What's the common denominator there?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Ah, the fan base. Obviously it's there.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Right exactly, So this is bad. And we can sit
here all day long and come up with theoretical trades.
We can come up with like a plan. We can say, oh,
if you go this route instead, it'll shorten the rebuilding process.
You can go through all that. The fact of the
matter is, well, you're probably gonna look at a team
that's going to try it at some point to accelerate
(11:50):
into the rebuild or retool.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So you think the Pelicans are more You don't think
that at least making this decision where they deserve criticism
for it.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Why wasn't it made sooner?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Why wasn't Joe Dumars allowed to get rid of Why
wasn't David Griffin allowed to get rid of Lly Green
at some point? But they did finally make it. You
don't view this as a potential sign. And even I
don't know if you saw Joe Dumars's response to it
was asked. I think it might have actually been asked
by SCHMIDTU of in the know. Do you still view
Zion as your tempole building block? And he seemed that
(12:22):
answer that he gave seemed and I didn't hear it,
so I can't give you the context of it. But
he seemed more non committal than he did when he
first took the gig. And so do you think that
there's a possibility the fact they made this type of
change at.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
All so early.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I think it's the easy change, But you don't think
it makes it more likely that maybe they do look
at hitting the reset button. Finally, you think that they're
still more likely to try and accelerate their place within
the Western Conference landscape and throw the I know people
appoint to well they have to. They don't control the
unprotected draft pick this year. Sure, but you reach a
(12:59):
p to where it's that's not chasing wins.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Just so it looks better.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
What pick you end up giving up just doesn't at
this point doesn't really matter.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Well, see about the wins. There's a number floating around
in New Orleans these days about what happened last year
the Pelicans and the Saints combined for twenty six wins.
That's a number that's been bandied about a fair bunch,
and apparently that's somewhat that's been coming that's a bit
of a talking point. And given that, I would be
(13:31):
surprised if that didn't ruffle some feathers at the top
level to the point where they would come a mandate
to basically say, win more games. And now I'm not
trying to be an ageist, but Gail Benson is also
on the older side. Can we rely on the fact
that she understands the complexity of rebuilding? I am not
(13:54):
sure you could.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That feels a little I'm not going to defend Gale Benson,
but what owner does how many of the how many
owners do you actually think? God Like, you could say
the same thing about Herb Simon in Indiana, You could
say the same thing about James Dolan in New York.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
A younger owner. I do think younger owners would at
least understand it to a certain point, like some ignore it,
like Matt Ishbia ignores it to a certain extent, he
understands it. Mark Cuban obviously we knew that he understood
the concept of rebuilding, like there are owners And that's
why I said ageists first, Like I understand that that
that's the crux of the issue, but like mostly it's
(14:31):
older owners who failed to understand that these things have
become pretty complex because when you think about it, even
even like older owners like Jared Reinstorf, who's had the
Bulls for so many years, like the concept of rebuilding
back in the eighties and nineties or even early two
thousands were a lot different. It was like, oh, pretty simplistic.
Oh yeah, well, you get a couple of grids to
(14:52):
the draft and you go through free agency. Do that's it.
That's not how it works anymore. You got to find
guys on the margins to acquire multiple draft picks in
the same year. You have to identify the correct year
to do that. You can't send out too many draft picks,
like there are swap like there are a million swap
options hanging over your head. And for the first and
second round. Things are just grotesquely more complicated than it
(15:16):
was twenty years ago. So what I'm saying here, and
this is what this is a question I have generally
with every old owner in every sport is does that
owner understand the complexity of rebuilding?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I think the bigger indictment would be, is this owner
willing to put people in charge? I pay the right
people in charge conduct searches, because the other thing that
Shamidt has reported is that there was no other interviews held.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
There was no search.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It was Joe Dumars, is what And that's my bigger
as I don't look Gale Benson's role. I don't know
if it is to understand the complexities of rebuilding, it's
to put the right people in place who do or
give them a license to do their job and not
handcuff them behind it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Right. But then she didn't And that that's where I'm
at because like, if you were charged with something, if
you had an you know, if you owned something and
that you needed that to be managed, would you put
someone in charge who didn't who doesn't understand, you know,
what they're doing that As an owner, you have responsibility
(16:18):
to understand at least certain elements. And that goes for everyone.
That's not just Gilbins, and that's with every single owner
in professional sports. You have a responsibility to do your
homework so you can hire the best people, like she
hired the wrong guy when like when when Joe Dumars
was hired, everyone was like, oh oh, like there wasn't
(16:39):
anything optimistic there. Everyone was like that. That seems like
a really bad hire. So how can someone have done
their homework if the universal reaction is oh, that seems
bad and the guy immediately confirms your worst suspicion. At
some point it comes back to ownership and protecting your
(17:01):
own assets.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Oh yeah, I'm not look not defending Gale Benson here.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I think it's more of a I just think the
way that I guess what you're talking about when it
comes to that spirit of rebuilding. I don't think it's
unique to Gail Benson that she would either rather avoid
it or Oh.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
No, no, if I made it sound unique, I apologize.
That's not like I we were talking about the Pelicans specifically.
I apply this to every single owner in sports.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You're running, you're giving what it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Let's just say that Joe Dumars or whoever, Troy Weaver
has the license to do whatever they want with the Pelicans.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
What are you doing? What is your first order of
business right now?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well? Am I attacking this from their perspective? Or am
I attacking it? I think our perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Look, if we're attacking it from their perspective, we just
need to predict what's the wrong move and right exactly?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Okay, what should the Pelicans do.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And I guess this is really the conversation of when
you're looking at Zion Williamson, have you reached a point
to where it's we know the trade value would be
so bizarrely low relative to what peaks Ion could look.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Like if he ever stayed available enough.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Or are you at the point should you be running
this organization to where it's as long as it doesn't
mess up our long term books and we're getting something,
we just need to like wipe this slate clean and
kind of start it new.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, the latter, I mean, look, you need to get assets,
you need to get young assets, you need to start
a rebil, you need to do you need to do
everything you can. You know, you don't control a lot
of your future. First, I just need to actually kind
of do. Let me just go back like the I
thought they were in worse shape with the picks. I
know the twenty just this year is pres For some reason,
(18:44):
I thought their twenty nine pick was also out the door.
I might mistake them for a different organization then, So
you know what, that's positive. Now you need the additional
draft picks if you're going to start the long term process.
That means what can you get for herb can you
get a sweetheart deal for Trey Murphy? By the way,
I'm not saying they need to trade Trey Murphy if
(19:06):
there's you know, because he's cheap, he's super productive, he's
you know, he's a guy who probably could make a
couple of All Star Games down on the line. So
I'm not saying they necessarily need to. But if there's
like a Desmond Baine return out there for Trey Murphy,
I wouldn't hate that, Dan like, that's probably.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
The by the way, nor should you, because I think
it's fine to look at Trey Murphy's contract, what he
could do and say you don't have to move him.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I think that's totally fair.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
But if you make him off limits or you say
that he is the only one who's untouchable, it worries
me in this sense of, well, how fast is this
team gonna try and turn things around that they think
Trey Murphy is going to still be on this great
contract when they're good again.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Because this contract is awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
What we let Trey Murphy's twenty five right now, he's
gonna be what if we're being realistic, if you were
to rebuild the Pelicans. He's probably gonna be twenty nine
by the time that they're ready to enter contention, and
that might be me being generous. And so that's the
Trey Murphy discussion. It's not they just need to trade him.
I think that's more of a discussion to have about
(20:14):
Zion Williamson than Trey and maybe even Herb Jones, who's
not trade eligible to I think middle of January. But
the trade Murphy thing that's always runned me a wrong
way a little bit to where, yeah, he's your best
trade asset, doesn't mean you have to keep him unless
the plan is we're going to be competitive next season
or within the next two seasons. And if that is
the plan, that concerns me because you're so far away.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, completely agreed. What I'm thinking here is with Sion,
I'm putting him into sort of a bubble because of
the legal issues that are hanging over him. I don't
think any team wants to touch him or give up
relinquished assets whatsoever before that's resolved. So I can't even
(20:59):
take him into account in terms of like the trade
landscape whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Which I think is fair. But if you're the Pelicans.
It's probably and I don't know how many of their
moves have been rooted in. I think you could make
the case that one of their problems was that maybe
they didn't consider Zion enough in a lot of the
on the court, in a lot of some of the
other moves that they've made, or the half measures that
they've made. But you do need to get to a
point now to where if you're going to decide, oh,
(21:28):
we're gonna actually rebuild, this is gonna be more of
a thorough this is gonna be a different kind of
process than we've been used to over the past however
many years, you have to There has to be some
show of you proving to your fan base that this
isn't about Zion Williamson or the Zion era anymore. And
moving him for expiring money would be the way to
(21:50):
do that. He's a player who's way better than that
on the court, or you at least need to put
maybe even if you don't like fuelers need to be
put out, or you need to send the message that
he's open, which it's kind of this open secret that
I don't think the Pelicans ever have viewed him untouchables
over the past few years, and that trades that have
been mentioned, they probably sought out more and found out
(22:11):
that his value isn't where it needs to be as
a as a trade asset.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
And it's tough to square away with you.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
You're right, with the allegations hanging over his head, the
off court stuff, we've seen teams like teams will it's
tough to account for it. But we like teams don't
operate with a that type of morality either. And so
this is the Los Angeles Clippers. You're right, yes, And
so I think the other thing is too, is that
for them to say, oh, we can't move him or
(22:39):
like they feel like they're forced into keeping him, that
would be just sort of this like that's just a facade.
So I don't it's easy for us to sit here
to say, though, you need to move Zion Williams in
or just don't play Zion Williams. And when he's healthy,
we know that's not really how this works. Is that
the I don't know what other evidence there would be though,
or that we would need to see, because is is
(23:01):
there an alternative form of evidence that would prove the
Pelicans are thinking about their future in different terms, or
does it all just come back to Zion is kind
of the barometer for where this organization is headed or
how it views itself.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Well, I I think I think that's the primary element.
I think the earlier point about trade that we actually
entered into was like that that is a secondary point
of contention, like where they think about him, Like are
they considering moving him? If not, what is the long
term plane are they actually trying to that? I think
to me that's sort of a smoking gun. If they're
(23:37):
trying to retain him and herb Jones for that matter,
presumably it's because they want to make a move at
some point, like to position themselves. So going back to
that point, whether they're available or not, I think it's
going to lay the bricks for the future and and
tell us what we need to know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Do you and I guess we didn't really answer my
original question.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you think that this change, the Willie Green firing
makes it any more likely that they would explore or
actually go down that path or do you just not
assign any sort of value to them making this decision
when Yeah, I think I'm kind of with you. I
don't think that this changes how I think they want
to operate.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
God no, God no, are you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
As you can tell I am, because there's just no,
there's not a whole lot more to say about this organization.
I will I will wrap this up by saying to
the fan base, we feel it. You know, we're sorry
for you. This is going to be a harsh path.
It's going to take years. You're going to lose a
lot of your patients with this team. So, like we
(24:49):
can allow you an amnesty for a couple of years,
Like you want to go join another fan base for
at least a couple of years, I think you should.
That'd be smart. Just abandon ship for a couple of
years until it's rebuild. Yes, And to answer your question,
you can find my work over at Yahoo Sports, at Forbes,
at the NPA podcast. If you speak games, you can
find you a plus re fever and catch my game
(25:11):
coverage on each.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Until next time.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
And as always, we went the shout out to the
one actually wants to shout out
Speaker 1 (25:18):
To Delcans again, that's where they wanders, think to the
shout out to you Beltons.
What is up?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Fellasiko's on Dana Valley coming at you with Mort Jensen
of the NBA Podcast, of Yahoo Sports, of Forbes, of
HBO Max.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And what he's known most for only fans. We're here
to talk. We are be on the lookout.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We're supposed to do a deep dive into rookies in
the Eastern Conference. That'll be coming probably the next day
after this drops. But the Pelicans fire Willy Green, So
we're gonna talk about it. And the question I have
to you more is, now that you know the Pelicans
have fired Willy Green, what changes about the way you
feel about this team?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah, Oh yeah, they're on the path now. Now look,
Joe Dumars is still heading this team. Gail Benson still
owns this team. So this feels very much like one
of those situations with Nico Harrison where yeah, was he
doing a great job?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Not really? Was he the crux of all issues? Also,
no way, more deeper rooted issues remains. There's also some
legal issues hanging over signed Williamson, your best player, which
could also affect both your season and the players standing
within the league. You know, considering what could happen, Uh,
(01:25):
everything is just dumb and weird with this organization to
a point where we're even seeing the fan base so
upset that they're kind of lashing out at Derrek Queen
for the trades made by Joe Dumarsh, which I just
very much met against, Like, that's not Derek Queen's fault.
Like I have not known, no, no, not big members
(01:46):
of the family like I've seen it. I've seen it.
Not like the prominent fans that we know and who
are occasionally visiting us on the podcasts, they are very
much supporters of mister Queen. But I have seen I
have seen fans mentioned that, oh, like, you know, why
are you not playing like the player that we gave
(02:07):
up all that all up for that up four because
that was the expectation, right, Like, first you made the
Pacers trade to get that pick, then you looped that
pig in with the Atlanta's trade to get number thirst seen,
and then you picked Derrek Queen. So I think people
were some people were expecting Derrek Queen to become something
(02:32):
that he was never supposed to be. And that's unfortunate
because that is not at the feet of him, that
is at the feet of Joe Dumars.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
It's not at the feet of Willie Green either, because
of how a few games he had being in charge
with Derek Queen's development. I think what I don't understand,
and I don't think anyone can understand. And Schmidt, dou
of in the know, has been all over this. Yes,
apparently David Griffin wanted to get rid of Willy Green,
but owner Gail been And said no, and that it
(03:01):
was a borderline stipulation that Willie Green remained with the
Pelicans when.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Joe Dumars and Troy Weaver took over.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Joe do Mars came out and I found Schmidt noted
that the event media availability had was on zoom and
I don't think you could even see him after the fact,
which is just that's not a real level of accountability
to me. What is the justice his justification for Why
did you let Willie Green even start the season so
that you got to this point when all signs were
(03:29):
pointing towards he's gonna get fired. They wouldn't let James
Barrego be a real candidate for the Knicks because they
kind of knew, yeah, we're gonna need him to be
our interim head coach at some point what type of
a process is that? It's just what is the as
Joe do I'm I'm actually speaking from Joe Dumars's perspective here.
If you're gonna get paid and your boss's stipulation is,
(03:50):
but I'm not gonna let you change the head coach,
I kind of understand it. But he's also trying to
take ownership of it a little bit by saying, well,
I watched the Pelicans eight years ago and Willie Green
was I kind of liked his vibe there.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
That's not what he said, of course, but he referenced just.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Watching the Pelicans two seasons ago and thought Willy Green
deserved a chance, and so you believe that the chance
was we'll just give him fewer than fifteen games into
the season and we'll wait until after they start zero
to six to where this isn't even rock bottom for
the Pelicans right now that I would have argued was
closer to have they even reached rock bottom is a question.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's what this all means.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It is for me, and I think it doesn't materially
change any thoughts I have about the because what maybe
we'll see different ways, but we'll see different rotations from
James Barrego. We'll probably see a different offense from James Barrego.
But what are you expecting? Like, what was Willy Green
not doing enough of?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Is there? I just don't, especially with the personnel he's given.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It seems by all intents and purposes he lost the
locker room is the thing that I've heard a lot
that's a problem. So I'm not like that should be
laid in his feed. But just do you think this
organization did He's not being announced before games anymore and
was it under the guise of well fans were gonna
boo him? And it's I just everything this organization has
(05:12):
done for a while, but just within the like since
June or since that Pace initial Pacers trade. It's just,
you know what the science most scientific word is.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
It's icky. It makes me feel icky.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
That's a good word, and it's it's true. Everything feels
rotten and dumb, and it's it's it's one of those
questions where the fan base can they at any point
feel comfortable and change is made as long as s
Gale Benson is owning that team, because like, look in
(05:47):
when Joe Dumars and immediately you can't trust his decision
making process. He's presumably going to be there for a while.
Let's say, by some miracle he has a moment of
yill self realization and just goes to the organization says, look,
I've made some really dumb decisions in my very short
(06:09):
stint here. I'm going to resign immediately because I am
depally incompetent even if that were to happen.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Which it won't, because there's only thirty of these jobs. Well,
is there really only thirty of these jobs? With the
way the executive executive hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Will right now, there might be sixty.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It might be sixty.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Sorry, I got sixty. But like, do you trust Gail
Benson to bring in someone new who can actually handle matters?
Or do you who do you like? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Could I ask another question?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, let's say you could pick whoever you wanted to
run the Pelicans. Do you think that that who's going
to come in and with the resources it seems like
Gail Benson and co. Are prepared to give them. Who
is actually going to turn this thing around? If you
put Sam Presty in New Orleans, I'm assuming the asset
management would be better, But do you expect because there
(06:58):
probably be a mandate. You can't rebuild for an entire
season and a half. Right, they probably looked at Okac's
rebuild post Russell Westbrook or whatever you want to claim
it the Stars.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Wow, that lasted way too long.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah. No, if whoever you bring in, if that person
is not going to give in going to be given
the necessary bway, what's the point. And that's where I
think the fan base is at right now. Like the
issues are with ownership, and as I've said for years
on the NBA podcast, like that is the biggest advantage
in sports. If you have good ownership, that is by
(07:34):
far the most important indicator of success. The Pels do
not have that now currently. They do not also have
a great front office. So it's like it's a double whaemmy.
Like you're hurting the long term prospects, you're hurting the
short term prospects, and nothing is working. It's super frustrating.
You have, like I mentioned at the top, you have
(07:55):
a superstar with a rape allegation hanging over his head.
You have a roster that generally speaking is not working
out that well. There's not a lot of cohesion there.
You just made a coaching change like fourteen games, fourteen
games or actually twelve games into the season. It's just
all I is a good word. It's blah is another
(08:20):
like just the sheer trade of you know CJ for
Jordan Poole as well?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Just yeah, why are you adding money as an organization
that is notoriously cheap?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Why are you adding money beyond?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And don't tell me that Jordan Poole just needs a
change of role and he'll be fine in New Morlands.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
He has been awful to start the season.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I I wonder, well, do you think that this will
at least provide a semblance of clarity as to who
is really kind of running things for the front office?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Because Kevin.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The villain, but I guess the soon to be villain,
but because Kevin Allie's name is already cropping up. And
if they hire Kevin Alie, this this is Troy Weavers show, right,
Isn't that abundantly clear?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yes? And that's where things get murky and depressing. And look,
at least the only silver lightning we can sum this
up pretty quickly. The only silver lining they have here
is that they got Jeremiah Fears and Durk Queen in
the draft Queen I still like, although you know, you
got picked way too high, but like he's a good player.
(09:25):
Jeremiah Fears is a guy who I think highly of
moving forward, and that's about it. Like Trey Murphy's by
far their best trade asset at this point, and they'll
probably need to utilize that trade asset to get some
draft picks in return at some point that they can
use because long term this is this is looking like
(09:46):
a complete shit show.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
What I think is also going to be interesting too,
is would you expect them because even when you hear
Kevin Ollie's name mentioned, I wonder if they would pay
what is necessary to a head coach to get what
I think Kevin Ollie would command, because this seems like
the quintessential. They're gonna end up hiring either a retread
or a first timer. I don't know what James Barrego
falls into, but he would probably be someone who, Okay,
(10:11):
he only has the experience in Charlotte, so he's not
going to command top dollar and just doesn't have money,
doesn't have the same mark.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
When you hear Kevin.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Allie's name, I think people just go, oh, that might
or maybe he is someone who would be cheap. But
I've seen, oh there's Tom Thibodeau's out there and Michael
Malone's out the.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
First of all tips coaching Zion would be a disaster.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Let's just make that clear, right.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
They're not going to pay what it takes to get
one of the bigger names whoever you view as the
biggest coach, like even maybe some of the more well
known coaching quote unquote prospects. They're not going to be
the team that's going to compensate them enough to get them.
And so I'm very curious to see where this ends up.
I almost expect it to land with well, James Barrego
is going to get the job because he might he
(10:51):
might be good, but it feels like he he will
be within their price range.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, because that's how they operate. And I wonder if
ownership has a good grasp of you know, the salary
cap and whatnot. I don't think so like things. So
I'm not an NFL guy, so you can correct me
if I'm wrong here, but it does seem like the
Saints with the who has the same ownership group, if
(11:16):
I'm not mistaken, are also being run like a trash
organization at this stage. What's the common denominator there?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Ah, the fan base. Obviously it's there.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Right exactly, So this is bad. And we can sit
here all day long and come up with theoretical trades.
We can come up with like a plan. We can say, oh,
if you go this route instead, it'll shorten the rebuilding process.
You can go through all that. The fact of the
matter is, well, you're probably gonna look at a team
that's going to try it at some point to accelerate
(11:50):
into the rebuild or retool.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So you think the Pelicans are more You don't think
that at least making this decision where they deserve criticism
for it.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Why wasn't it made sooner?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Why wasn't Joe Dumars allowed to get rid of Why
wasn't David Griffin allowed to get rid of Lly Green
at some point? But they did finally make it. You
don't view this as a potential sign. And even I
don't know if you saw Joe Dumars's response to it
was asked. I think it might have actually been asked
by SCHMIDTU of in the know. Do you still view
Zion as your tempole building block? And he seemed that
(12:22):
answer that he gave seemed and I didn't hear it,
so I can't give you the context of it. But
he seemed more non committal than he did when he
first took the gig. And so do you think that
there's a possibility the fact they made this type of
change at.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
All so early.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I think it's the easy change, But you don't think
it makes it more likely that maybe they do look
at hitting the reset button. Finally, you think that they're
still more likely to try and accelerate their place within
the Western Conference landscape and throw the I know people
appoint to well they have to. They don't control the
unprotected draft pick this year. Sure, but you reach a
(12:59):
p to where it's that's not chasing wins.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Just so it looks better.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
What pick you end up giving up just doesn't at
this point doesn't really matter.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Well, see about the wins. There's a number floating around
in New Orleans these days about what happened last year
the Pelicans and the Saints combined for twenty six wins.
That's a number that's been bandied about a fair bunch,
and apparently that's somewhat that's been coming that's a bit
of a talking point. And given that, I would be
(13:31):
surprised if that didn't ruffle some feathers at the top
level to the point where they would come a mandate
to basically say, win more games. And now I'm not
trying to be an ageist, but Gail Benson is also
on the older side. Can we rely on the fact
that she understands the complexity of rebuilding? I am not
(13:54):
sure you could.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That feels a little I'm not going to defend Gale Benson,
but what owner does how many of the how many
owners do you actually think? God Like, you could say
the same thing about Herb Simon in Indiana, You could
say the same thing about James Dolan in New York.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
A younger owner. I do think younger owners would at
least understand it to a certain point, like some ignore it,
like Matt Ishbia ignores it to a certain extent, he
understands it. Mark Cuban obviously we knew that he understood
the concept of rebuilding, like there are owners And that's
why I said ageists first, Like I understand that that
that's the crux of the issue, but like mostly it's
(14:31):
older owners who failed to understand that these things have
become pretty complex because when you think about it, even
even like older owners like Jared Reinstorf, who's had the
Bulls for so many years, like the concept of rebuilding
back in the eighties and nineties or even early two
thousands were a lot different. It was like, oh, pretty simplistic.
Oh yeah, well, you get a couple of grids to
(14:52):
the draft and you go through free agency. Do that's it.
That's not how it works anymore. You got to find
guys on the margins to acquire multiple draft picks in
the same year. You have to identify the correct year
to do that. You can't send out too many draft picks,
like there are swap like there are a million swap
options hanging over your head. And for the first and
second round. Things are just grotesquely more complicated than it
(15:16):
was twenty years ago. So what I'm saying here, and
this is what this is a question I have generally
with every old owner in every sport is does that
owner understand the complexity of rebuilding?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I think the bigger indictment would be, is this owner
willing to put people in charge? I pay the right
people in charge conduct searches, because the other thing that
Shamidt has reported is that there was no other interviews held.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
There was no search.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It was Joe Dumars, is what And that's my bigger
as I don't look Gale Benson's role. I don't know
if it is to understand the complexities of rebuilding, it's
to put the right people in place who do or
give them a license to do their job and not
handcuff them behind it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Right. But then she didn't And that that's where I'm
at because like, if you were charged with something, if
you had an you know, if you owned something and
that you needed that to be managed, would you put
someone in charge who didn't who doesn't understand, you know,
what they're doing that As an owner, you have responsibility
(16:18):
to understand at least certain elements. And that goes for everyone.
That's not just Gilbins, and that's with every single owner
in professional sports. You have a responsibility to do your
homework so you can hire the best people, like she
hired the wrong guy when like when when Joe Dumars
was hired, everyone was like, oh oh, like there wasn't
(16:39):
anything optimistic there. Everyone was like that. That seems like
a really bad hire. So how can someone have done
their homework if the universal reaction is oh, that seems
bad and the guy immediately confirms your worst suspicion. At
some point it comes back to ownership and protecting your
(17:01):
own assets.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Oh yeah, I'm not look not defending Gale Benson here.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I think it's more of a I just think the
way that I guess what you're talking about when it
comes to that spirit of rebuilding. I don't think it's
unique to Gail Benson that she would either rather avoid
it or Oh.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
No, no, if I made it sound unique, I apologize.
That's not like I we were talking about the Pelicans specifically.
I apply this to every single owner in sports.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You're running, you're giving what it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Let's just say that Joe Dumars or whoever, Troy Weaver
has the license to do whatever they want with the Pelicans.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
What are you doing? What is your first order of
business right now?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well? Am I attacking this from their perspective? Or am
I attacking it? I think our perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Look, if we're attacking it from their perspective, we just
need to predict what's the wrong move and right exactly?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Okay, what should the Pelicans do.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And I guess this is really the conversation of when
you're looking at Zion Williamson, have you reached a point
to where it's we know the trade value would be
so bizarrely low relative to what peaks Ion could look.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Like if he ever stayed available enough.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Or are you at the point should you be running
this organization to where it's as long as it doesn't
mess up our long term books and we're getting something,
we just need to like wipe this slate clean and
kind of start it new.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, the latter, I mean, look, you need to get assets,
you need to get young assets, you need to start
a rebil, you need to do you need to do
everything you can. You know, you don't control a lot
of your future. First, I just need to actually kind
of do. Let me just go back like the I
thought they were in worse shape with the picks. I
know the twenty just this year is pres For some reason,
(18:44):
I thought their twenty nine pick was also out the door.
I might mistake them for a different organization then, So
you know what, that's positive. Now you need the additional
draft picks if you're going to start the long term process.
That means what can you get for herb can you
get a sweetheart deal for Trey Murphy? By the way,
I'm not saying they need to trade Trey Murphy if
(19:06):
there's you know, because he's cheap, he's super productive, he's
you know, he's a guy who probably could make a
couple of All Star Games down on the line. So
I'm not saying they necessarily need to. But if there's
like a Desmond Baine return out there for Trey Murphy,
I wouldn't hate that, Dan like, that's probably.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
The by the way, nor should you, because I think
it's fine to look at Trey Murphy's contract, what he
could do and say you don't have to move him.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I think that's totally fair.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
But if you make him off limits or you say
that he is the only one who's untouchable, it worries
me in this sense of, well, how fast is this
team gonna try and turn things around that they think
Trey Murphy is going to still be on this great
contract when they're good again.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Because this contract is awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
What we let Trey Murphy's twenty five right now, he's
gonna be what if we're being realistic, if you were
to rebuild the Pelicans. He's probably gonna be twenty nine
by the time that they're ready to enter contention, and
that might be me being generous. And so that's the
Trey Murphy discussion. It's not they just need to trade him.
I think that's more of a discussion to have about
(20:14):
Zion Williamson than Trey and maybe even Herb Jones, who's
not trade eligible to I think middle of January. But
the trade Murphy thing that's always runned me a wrong
way a little bit to where, yeah, he's your best
trade asset, doesn't mean you have to keep him unless
the plan is we're going to be competitive next season
or within the next two seasons. And if that is
the plan, that concerns me because you're so far away.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, completely agreed. What I'm thinking here is with Sion,
I'm putting him into sort of a bubble because of
the legal issues that are hanging over him. I don't
think any team wants to touch him or give up
relinquished assets whatsoever before that's resolved. So I can't even
(20:59):
take him into account in terms of like the trade
landscape whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Which I think is fair. But if you're the Pelicans.
It's probably and I don't know how many of their
moves have been rooted in. I think you could make
the case that one of their problems was that maybe
they didn't consider Zion enough in a lot of the
on the court, in a lot of some of the
other moves that they've made, or the half measures that
they've made. But you do need to get to a
point now to where if you're going to decide, oh,
(21:28):
we're gonna actually rebuild, this is gonna be more of
a thorough this is gonna be a different kind of
process than we've been used to over the past however
many years, you have to There has to be some
show of you proving to your fan base that this
isn't about Zion Williamson or the Zion era anymore. And
moving him for expiring money would be the way to
(21:50):
do that. He's a player who's way better than that
on the court, or you at least need to put
maybe even if you don't like fuelers need to be
put out, or you need to send the message that
he's open, which it's kind of this open secret that
I don't think the Pelicans ever have viewed him untouchables
over the past few years, and that trades that have
been mentioned, they probably sought out more and found out
(22:11):
that his value isn't where it needs to be as
a as a trade asset.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
And it's tough to square away with you.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
You're right, with the allegations hanging over his head, the
off court stuff, we've seen teams like teams will it's
tough to account for it. But we like teams don't
operate with a that type of morality either. And so
this is the Los Angeles Clippers. You're right, yes, And
so I think the other thing is too, is that
for them to say, oh, we can't move him or
(22:39):
like they feel like they're forced into keeping him, that
would be just sort of this like that's just a facade.
So I don't it's easy for us to sit here
to say, though, you need to move Zion Williams in
or just don't play Zion Williams. And when he's healthy,
we know that's not really how this works. Is that
the I don't know what other evidence there would be though,
or that we would need to see, because is is
(23:01):
there an alternative form of evidence that would prove the
Pelicans are thinking about their future in different terms, or
does it all just come back to Zion is kind
of the barometer for where this organization is headed or
how it views itself.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Well, I I think I think that's the primary element.
I think the earlier point about trade that we actually
entered into was like that that is a secondary point
of contention, like where they think about him, Like are
they considering moving him? If not, what is the long
term plane are they actually trying to that? I think
to me that's sort of a smoking gun. If they're
(23:37):
trying to retain him and herb Jones for that matter,
presumably it's because they want to make a move at
some point, like to position themselves. So going back to
that point, whether they're available or not, I think it's
going to lay the bricks for the future and and
tell us what we need to know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Do you and I guess we didn't really answer my
original question.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you think that this change, the Willie Green firing
makes it any more likely that they would explore or
actually go down that path or do you just not
assign any sort of value to them making this decision
when Yeah, I think I'm kind of with you. I
don't think that this changes how I think they want
to operate.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
God no, God no, are you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
As you can tell I am, because there's just no,
there's not a whole lot more to say about this organization.
I will I will wrap this up by saying to
the fan base, we feel it. You know, we're sorry
for you. This is going to be a harsh path.
It's going to take years. You're going to lose a
lot of your patients with this team. So, like we
(24:49):
can allow you an amnesty for a couple of years,
Like you want to go join another fan base for
at least a couple of years, I think you should.
That'd be smart. Just abandon ship for a couple of
years until it's rebuild. Yes, And to answer your question,
you can find my work over at Yahoo Sports, at Forbes,
at the NPA podcast. If you speak games, you can
find you a plus re fever and catch my game
(25:11):
coverage on each.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Until next time.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
And as always, we went the shout out to the
one actually wants to shout out
Speaker 1 (25:18):
To Delcans again, that's where they wanders, think to the
shout out to you Beltons.
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The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.