Rookie Watch 2025/2026, Western Conference - Featuring Dan Favale - The NBA Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
What is up?

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Fellasiko's I Am Dana Valley coming at you with Mark
Jensen of the NBA podcast, fame of Yahoo Sports, fame
of Forbes's, fame of HBO Max fame.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
And of course of Only Fans celebrity.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
We did our Eastern Conference rookie check in already, go
check out that episode. A lot of fun, a lot
of nerdy, dorky stuff in there. We're about to get
nerdier and dorkier with the Western Conference rookies. Uh, this
is more exciting, I think for me at least than
the Eastern Conference. Class was still some names in the
East that we're worth talking about, but the crop of

(00:41):
talent in the Western Conference, for me at least, was
a lot more fun to scout. Before we get started,
and mort and I will bounce around, We'll take turns
picking you know, which rookies, which teams we end up
talking about, Mortar, are you doing you know what? Man?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
I am doing good.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
I'm doing very well because and I told this to
Brian Saporik, who asked me the same question question our
mutual buddy on Friday when we're doing a podcast, and
I told her, I'm probably gonna jinx it now, but
I haven't been six for sick for a month and
a half, so I just to unchinxit. I'm gonna save
for the second time because I could just see myself

(01:17):
having jinxed it on Friday. Now here on Tuesday, I'm
gonna say it for a second time. Hopefully it unjinkses
the whole thing. That's how it works.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
That's bold because we're entering peak flu cold COVID season anyway,
so that was very bold of you speaking of peak
flu season. This is being released on Thanksgiving in America,
So Happy Thanksgiving today everybody who celebrates. We hope you
enjoy it and have some fun listening to Hardwood Knox
and the NBA podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Is there?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
I didn't ask you this when we did the East though.
More when you're evaluating rookies in general, are there?

Speaker 1 (01:52):
I tend to I make a joke that I just
go off vibes.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Which is really just me saying I assign a lot
of value to the eye test, but certain things where it's, oh,
if they were supposed to be really good at this
and this is really bad might raise my eyes. But
is there any thing specifically that you look for that
maybe you throw out the window in evaluating rookies because
I think year one in year two they might be
the most fun seasons to evaluate because you're not working

(02:17):
with much, But at the same time, they might also
be the most complicated seasons to evaluate because you don't
know what to read into, what baseline to work off.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
I'm glad you included the second year. I think I
always find that the hardest to evaluate because you know,
you can come into the league and have a great
rookie year, then we don't really know who you are
if you then struggling in year two. And the primary
example of this is Haimi Hakis right now. Yet we
just did not know what was going on there. He

(02:46):
came in as a rookie, did really really well, looked
like at times a borderline NBA player in year two,
and now he's what like the leading secons.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
He has the rotation last year for the heat at
one point, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
So it's that year two for me is a lot
more difficult, and I think for me it's just fun.
I think you kind of nailed it with the rookie year.
Like I just I don't put too much stock into
it because I know that they're young, they're coming into
a new environment. What I have noticed before I actually
answer your question though, is and I want to give

(03:22):
rookies this compliment. For a long time, rookies who came
in were just bad defenders, like horrendous defenders, just very
very poor. We've seen a pretty sharp flip of that
over the past, I want to say, five to six years, Like,
there are a lot of rookies coming in now who

(03:43):
are quality NPA defenders. I'm really impressed with how they've
closed that gap so soon, So I want to give
them that. But there's one thing I'm looking for in
terms of like the eye test format, hesitation. Just does
the player hesitate? Is when he gets the ball and
he's just like a little open, does he grab it

(04:07):
and look or does just does he grab that thing
and just shoots the shoot the heck out of it?
Because the guys who do that are usually usually the
ones who end up doing well. Like I think, to
be a star in this league, you do have to
have some level of irrational confidence, like even as a rookie,
where your game might not be necessarily at that stage,

(04:30):
but your mentality just keeps going with it until your
level just increases year by year by year, and suddenly
your blatant arrogance is actually as high as your own
level of game. And then that's when that person becomes
a star. So just being able to make decisions, quick
decisions with the ball, being able to just be determined

(04:51):
and say, yeah, I know exactly what I'm going to
try to do, even if they fail, Like VJ Edgcombe,
I'm gonna give him this. I know we're gonna talk
about like the West thing, but we talked about last
time around. He took he takes too many you know,
pull up twos and whatnot. I don't necessarily hate it
every single time, Like, yeah, he has some Kobe shots

(05:12):
where you're like, oh oh, but when he gets to
a point where oh yeah, I can just load up
here and take this shot. Sure, why not? Like if
he gets that down, I don't hate it. Like it's
not like it's right.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's like getting mad at Ace Bailey for taking a
step back three when you think it driving lane is open.
It's allowed them to explore that space right as a
rookie and it but it's it works in the inverse
for me too, and Ace Bailey is a good example
to where when we get to him, I want to
see the Jazz have him do more things on his
own or run more places for him. I actually I

(05:47):
viewed as super encouraging because just the narrative coming out
of school for him was all over the place, and
I think you looked at this Utah roster, looked at
what people were saying coming out of the draft, and
thought he would dominate the ball, could be hijacking the offense,
and he hasn't been passive by any stretch, but the
fact that he is filling in those gaps and trying

(06:07):
to work is part of that larger ecosystem.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
I give a ton of credit to it.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
But then I'm also sitting here, Well, it's good that
Kiante George is having a good season. It's good that
the Jazz want to test out Walter Clayton Junior is
a playmaker, Larry Market is having a great year. But
I want more on ball Ace Bailey, and the answers
is yes, but again that's what makes the rookie years
fun and also a.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Little bit complicated.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Absolutely, I think this isn't really a pick for either
of us, but I think that we should just start
with a rookie that no one has really ever heard of,
and that would be Cooper Flag of the Dallas Yeah,
of the Dallas Mavericks. What have been your initial impressions
of him? Mort And are you let me ask you
this first, are you all in the camp of people

(06:51):
who are disappointed that Cooper Flag currently is not running
away with the Rookie of the Year award.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Look, I can't be in any way shape of form
disappointed in a player who's getting played entirely out of
position by Jason Kidd to a point where I think
it's hurting him this year. He's is he the youngest
player in the league. If not, he's like the second

(07:19):
youngest or not even nineteen yet He's right exactly, Yeah, Yeah,
I think that is just too much, too soon, throwing
him in as point guard. Like I get, I know
these stats are noisy as hell, but according to Basketball Reference,
he's played zero zero percent of his minutes at the four,
and two percent of his minutes at the three, seventy

(07:40):
seven percent at the two, and twenty one percent at
the one. Where I'm just like, yeah, even when they've moved,
they've now been able to move away from like we've
seen a little bit more of Ryan Nemhard, we saw
Brandon william even as they move away from Cooper flag
quote unquote point guard. They're not playing him in his
optimal position right yet. And I think that's probably reflected
just as much he's I think he's been really good defensively.

(08:00):
You want to make that clear, Yeah, but you look
at the defensive playmaking, it would probably be a lot
higher and even more impactful if he was in the
right role or had a different like personnel collection around him.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Right, Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
I mean, look, when you're playing that farther away from
the basket and you have to guard like wings and like, yeah,
that was always going to be part of his job,
but I wanted him to become more of like a
free roaming defender because I think that's where he's best.
He's just not getting that treatment right now by the
coaching staff. So I think what he's done despite being

(08:39):
played out position is incredibly incredibly impressive. I just I
am not sitting here and being disappointed at anything he's
done at all. I'm if anything, I'm just in awe
at how he continuously takes that challenge and goes all right,
well this is this is certainly something that's over my

(09:01):
head at this point, but like, I'm gonna keep going
at it. I think his mentality is super refreshing, and
I think the coaching staff is wrong having thrown him
into the deep end this soon. I think this should
have been a year two thing, or at the very
least I hope that they make a change after like
the half seasoned mark and say, okay, like we've tested
him out that way, now let's go get him into

(09:23):
a more of a play finish your role, because I
think that is going to be his primary scoring avenue.
I don't think it's going to be, hey, let me
create stuff off the triple consistently. No, I think he
needs a playmaker who can also set him.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Up and that I don't know how much of that
to put on the coaching staff as much as the
front office, the Nico Harrison era.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
Oh yeah, no, no, no, that's that's the front dosh.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah yeah, and like that.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Now it's on Michael Finley and Matt McCarthy to turn
over the roster and put him in a position where
he can be at least blend the idea of him
being a play starter and play finisher better, and they have.
To this point, what I've really liked about him, I mean,
like the defense is to me is mostly as advertised.
I wouldn't have much to add there. He's already the

(10:10):
two things that stand out for me. He's kind of
a whiz at sniping those outlet passes in the back
court where where the offense doesn't really think that anyone's
gonna try anything, which is weird in this era where
it feels like everyone's full court pressing more and it's
fun to watch smaller guards or ball handlers just think
that they can take him off the dribble and get
by him, and then either one not or two they do,

(10:34):
and then he's just gonna block their shot from behind
at the basket anyway. So the defense, he's gonna be
spectacular on defense. Yes, offensively, he's been I think better
than people are giving him credit for. He is quietly
shooting thirty five point five percent on self created threes
and just eighteen point four percent off the catch. There's

(10:56):
a lot of noise there. I think a lot of
that is defense are gonna sag off him. So those
are kind of slowed ruble pull ups he's taking the
catch and shoots the quality of them when you look
at who is feeding him the ball. But I think
it's good the fact that he has, oh, he can
hit the methodical pull up three. He's also his finishing
at the rim sixty five percent isn't great for someone
at quote unquote his position, whatever that is, but mort

(11:18):
he ranks in the fourteenth percentile of shot quality at
the basket because of the way the mats are built.
So yeah, I'll take sixty five percent finishing at the rim.
He's twelve nineteen on floaters, so he has some touch,
and he's fifty percent on twos in the paint that
aren't in the restricted area. The league average on those
shots is forty four percent. I think this is someone

(11:38):
who's already a little bit more well rounded offensively than
he's getting credit for. The efficiency in full has yet
to catch up, and I can sort of only imagine, well,
what would it look like if he was just in
more lineups where he was whether you want to call
it the day Facto four or not, but where it's
not as many floor spacing liabilities around him and or

(11:59):
I mean, would be optimal. But I'll even take or
the best player getting him the ball? Is who who
is the best player on the Mavericks getting Cooper Flag
the ball right now? So if Kyrie Irving does come
back this season, that will be really fun to see.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
I have zero disappointments with Cooper Flag.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
I think the fact that he's not running away with
Rookie of the Year, it's certainly on the mass roster construction.
I think it also just says more about Contin Nipple
VJ Edgecombe specifically, and some of the other guys will
ultimately talk about.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
I'm curious you said sixty five percent of the rim
conversion rate. Yeah, okay, it's because I'm using Basketball Reference
that has him an almost seventy nine percent efficiency.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I use cleaning the glass which is inside four
feet and filters out garbage.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
All right, fair enough, Yep, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I mean even better than if he's going to be
eighty percent at the basket and you're in the you know,
fourteen percentile of shot quality right at the rim.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
That's kind of insane.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
Well, because there's there's a follow up points to that,
which I think I think is super interesting. So he's
making a I'm using Basketball Reference for this one, and
that is definitely within three feet of the basket. So
I get the distinction there where he's shooting seventy eight
point six percent, only thirty eight point six percent of
those shots are assisted, So that means he's self creating

(13:22):
those paths towards the basket for the most part and
converting at that rate, which I'll be honest with you,
I did a double take when I saw that because
the eye test for me did not capture that, which
is why again, to just say it for the thousands time,
you have to marry the eye test with the numbers

(13:43):
because sometimes there's bias going on in some capacity like
I did. I would never in a million years have
connected those things. But like, that's impressive to me because
you know, he's not you know, he's not Wemby in
terms of coming into the league. It's seven foot ridiculous,
Like he's he's six', nine and for him to come
in and you, know be prototypical power forward height and

(14:06):
length and just to keep doing, THIS i, mean come,
on that's. Insane everything is insanely encouraging about him is.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Basically, AGAIN i think even when you're looking at the
miss jump, SHOTS i don't. Like it doesn't look like
anything is. Broken some of the misses of a course been.
Bad BUT i would bet that at some point he
is either in above average if you want to call
it a mid range, shooter or even just a decidedly
above average three point. SHOOTER i would bet on at

(14:34):
least one of those things, happening and if both of
them happened, happened then game.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
OVER i don't. LIKE i don't look at that, point
what are you supposed to do?

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Again it's to me it's just a matter of how
are The maps going to use him for the rest
of this year and are they going into the trade
deadline with the eye on providing. MORE i don't want
to say help because that sounds like they want to accelerate,
something but LIKE i want to Give cooper, FLEA.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I don't want to Trade Anthony. Davis they do want
to accelerate something. More didn't you Hear Mark? Cuban they're
not Trading Anthony davis.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
The but YOU'RE i don't. Know this would be.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
TRICKY i think there would have to be way moving parts.
Involved but why not try to take a flyer or
even go after a hot like is there any higher
end might be, extreme but So jared McCain would be
a good. Example we don't really kind of know what
he is In, philly but it'd be interesting to see
him In dallas where the pecking order is kind of
clear for, him and then you try to develop the and,
look if You're, dallas even if you're giving up like

(15:29):
bigger players in other, trades you're still gonna be big
enough to cover up For jared McCain. Defensively and so
a move like that doesn't have to Be jared, McCain
but just a younger ball handler type To, yeah you
could hope for the draft for, that but for the
rest of this, season especially Post All star, Break i'd
love to see that.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Same do you want to.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
Pick who we do? Next, WELL i, mean, obviously let's
just go down the draft. Board Dylan harper number two
In San. ANTONIO i only played six games so.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Far that's just to say he will WIN. Mvp OH i.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
DID i did want to shout out two people on
The Dallas, mavericks the other quick rookies we got playing.
Time Ryan emhard had the game of his short career
the other, night dishing out seven. ASSISTS i do like
his ability to spray when he's in the paint And
siesai gave them minutes and has like a block rate
of nine When dallas was really banged, up and so
you would when you look At dallas' roster.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
More there is no reality in which you.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Should have thought That Mussa cis should have had to
log any sort of minutes this. Year but they were
so banged up at one point that he needed. To
and so shout out to. HIM i apologize for taking
us on that.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
Tangent, no that's that is that is. Fair that is.
Fair he is a. ROOKIE i wasn't drafted like an
unders or undrafted.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Rookie. Counts it all. Counts this is a rookie.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
Pod but, Yeah i'm gonna go back To Dylan harper
what we saw in those six, games AND i recognize
this sample size obviously is a lot smaller because of
that calf. Strain he was so. Methodical is that's probably
the best. Word coming into the league immediately just he

(17:06):
knows where he wants to go at all, times he
knows how to get, there and he was so productive
in limited minutes WHERE i was, like, oh, okay this
this is beginning to look really. GOOD i was surprised
defensively as how He you, know most big players coming
into the, league especially big, guards they're a little afraid

(17:27):
of using their. Physicality they're a little afraid of like
using their muscles and getting into the thick of. Things they're, like, oh,
yeah Because i'm probably gonna get foul Or i'm gonna
probably gonna. Foul Harper is, like, No i'm gonna get
up on, Guys Like i'm gonna IF i see a
he this guy calling for a, Screen i'm gonna get
right in between those two, Guys i'm going to force
him the other. Direction, like there's a lot to love.

(17:48):
There the passings been has been phenomenal in my. Eyes
the fact that he can finish around the. Basket he
made numerous wicked like wrap around plays where he just
finished right over the top of. GUYS i just think
this dude carries himself so well on THE np. Floor
as soon as he hit, it he was, like, yeah

(18:08):
this is home for.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Me it's.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Working so very very excited to see him back. Hopefully so,
yeah he was really. Good there's some turnover stuff that's.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Concerning he's like eight turnovers on just twenty two pick
and roll. Possessions but that's just the learning, curve AND
i think we kind of knew the on ball smoothness
was going to be.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
THERE i said this about, HIM i think.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Coming out Of Summer, league and it didn't change through
the first part of THIS nba, season the movement off
the ball and just trusting, that, no this will be
somebody who can work alongside Both Steph castle And Daron
fox if they want to go that, route and certainly
at least one of them we saw more of.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
It of course With Steph.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Castle that is super encouraging because what was the talk
coming into this, season including on this, podcast WHERE'S i
don't want to play it's not the one ball, card
but it's, well these three guys with none of them
are considered dead eye, shooters And Dylan harper will probably
get there, now it feels, like but he could be
the skeleton key that insures when all three of them are,
healthy if you want to run those units. Together he

(19:09):
kind of feels like the one who needs to make
the fewest. Adjustments it feels like that would come more
naturally to him than either of the other two and
that's big for The. Spurs so just as a, SCORE i,
think is it like you, said the passes that he could.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Try i'm on, team throw the audacious pass.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Now and we'll deal with the turnovers because if you
start making those on, points that's just going to open
up and be you, know if we get to year
three or something and it's.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Just you, know we need to have a.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Conversation But i'm especially year one and year, Two i'm
hashtag just just try.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
Stuff yeah that try so, yeah, yeah just try out. Shit,
honestly that's. Fine, No i'm very encouraged about what he's
done so. Far and, again the limited minutes to, me
like he came in and The spurs were, like let's
let's issue into. It like he's he wasn't even averaging
a half of PLAYING ti per game before he went,

(20:01):
down and he was still at like fourteen, points four,
rebounds four, assists like getting to the foul.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Line it's.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
On it's just he understands how to maximize the production
level in those limited. Minutes it feels like he has
this mentality AND i think he saw it At rutgers as,
Well like when he's on the, floor he feels this
need to be involved in place. Like he doesn't shy,
away he doesn't LOOK i want to turn this into a,
verb he. Doesn't Patrick williams himself out where he's just

(20:28):
standing there with a thumb up his ass and does.
Nothing he's like he's actively engaged in whatever action he
can get involved, in WHICH i think is always such
a strong sign of future stardom as, well.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
He has not played a.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Ton did you Expect Carter bryant to have any type
of role on this? TEAM i think right now you
look at it and, say, well between Having Julian, Champenny,
Harrison barnes small when you're at full, strength tecically, smaller
just Having Devin, Vessel Fox Castle, harper but especially With
Kelden johnson playing like he is, now you would have, said,

(21:04):
no there's not going to be a pathway to him getting.
Minutes did you expect them, to especially given they have
like injuries of ripped through this.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Rock. Yeah, so AS i said in the earlier episodes
that we had that we did about The, east WHERE
i basically apologized For Konka nipple SAYING i expected him
to be a second year. Guy that is HOW i
came into this year With Carter. Bryant because he was

(21:32):
very young in his first season or his only season With,
arizona he didn't play a whole. Lot he's he's a.
Project he's more theoretical at this. POINT i did not
think that one offseason and one training camp was going
to change. That so he's basically on course for What
i'd expected so. Far to be honest with, you, LIKE

(21:55):
i just never kind of looped him in as a first,
year highly influential role player.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Us mostly in the same. BOAT i thought maybe his
defense could keep him on the. Floor but it turns
out IF i, mean it doesn't turn out we do.
This If wemby's gonna be, healthy and given What Steph
cassel can, do you don't necessarily need the. DEFENSE i will,
say in the very very few minutes that he's, played
he's already had one monster transition, block and there was
this possession against The.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
SUNS i think it was earlier this.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Month he was Defending Jordan goodwin and just swallowed that dude.
Hole and he is going to be a defensive. Maniac
and the question for him is he can move well
without the. Ball that's not the problem is can he make.
Shots we don't know about, that but that'll be if
he does get playing, time that's gonna be the. Question
he is what you said at the top of this,

(22:44):
podcast THOUGH i would already say he's an above average
we have not seen enough of, him and he's, no
that's an above average.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Defender so these rookies are coming.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
In you look AT, cmb you look At Cooper, flag
you look at just some of these other. Guys they're
coming in and they feel better. Defensively to your, POINT
i wish we could see more of, Him but if
we see more of him is probably because either The
spurs are unfathomably injured or they've fallen out of the
playoff race at some, point and you, know you obviously
don't want to see either of those things, happen, Right and.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
We should just conclude The Carter brian segment by wishing
him a happy birthday. Tomorrow he's turning twenty years old On.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Thanksgiving look at.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
Him, Yeah november Twenty, Look I'm danish. MAN i don't
know jack About thanksgiving other other than you, know it's
basically a genocide that you guys are. Celebrating but Like
november twenty, six is his, Birthday so if that's when
you Celebrate, Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah a happy birthday To Carter. Bryant then my. Pick
now where should we?

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Go this is.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Tough let's do, uh let's do the pellies having some things.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
Happening oh, show, yeah they have no before you, Start
before you, Start i'm actually gonna ask. You i'm gonna
put you on the line, here who's the better Rookie
Jeremiah fears With Derek.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
Queen, oh you know, so aesthetically the answer should Be.
Fears BUT i think when you start to dig into
the results of what they're gonna, do It's Derek, queen
just because if you look at The, pelicans the way
they move when he, like is he gonna be when
he's being used as a.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Hub it's just.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Different it's in the same vein Of jokic and al
pahin Shangun to where the players are just moving around him.
Differently and the other. Thing let's, hey, look let's go
ahead and start With Derek queen. Here, uh he Has
zion playing off the ball more when they're. Together there
was THE i think it was there was the. Game
it was the game against The. BULLS i was watching And.
Zion they basically run like a mid post. Picking it

(24:36):
was like a mid range pick and. Roll zion sets
the screen from the midpoles mid post and then like
sprints to the rim and it turns into an alley
oop and it's just that's a fun. Tandem but the
idea Of zion not having like those are plays to
Where zion's bodies not being put through the. Ringer and
there are different types of, playmakers because what do we
know About. Zion he's kind of closer to The Russell
westbrook type of, playmaker where it's this force of nature going.

(24:59):
Downhill that's how he's gonna generate his. Advantages Derek queen
is more of a like a finesse guy who's gonna
use complicated footwork to create those advantages or pass from a.
Standstill the passing is JUST i want to see more of.
IT i understand that there's other mouths to feed on the.
Roster though of COURSE i think he's been. Great he's
actually impressed. Me you would maybe great is a, stretch

(25:21):
but you look at. It it would be awesome if
he had some more perimeter. Efficiency the three balls just
not there right. Now he is shooting eleven of nineteen
on floaters and forty nine point three percent on, drives
and it doesn't really feel like he's getting deep enough
on his drives, yet so those might be good. Harbingers
he's just a little too mid range heavy at the

(25:43):
moment for. Me but, Defensively i've been actually impressed with his,
activity AND i know That Willie green was using him
more aggressively Than James brego is probably going to in
the short and long. Term that's probably better is he
probably needs to be a guy who's in. Drop but,
man he intercepted an entry pass against The nuggets On
jokich like he just has really active, Hands and SO

(26:06):
i wouldn't mind seeing the mix in aggressive coverages with
more sort of base defensive. Coverages AND i do believe
as A i guess more of as a fundamental rim,
protector not someone who's gonna make a ton of reads
as the helper or chase down guys in swat away.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Shots he can be a standstill rim.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Protector he's only six' nine and his defensive footwork can
be all over. The place but if you can say that,
about him opponents are shooting five point seven percent worse
at the rim when he's on the floor, in general
like the. Entire teams that's sort of just an interesting
subplot to this because if he can do this stuff
now for the, most part maybe foul a little.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Bit less, of course that's a.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Really good sign for the future when you're, looking, at
well how do we build a defense out around?

Speaker 4 (26:53):
This GUY so i Really Like derk QUEEN and i
that's a necessary pre cursor For what i'm about.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
To say.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
The baby jokic stuff is. Such bullshit we need to
stop putting that.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
On him it's.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
So unfair it is SO like i know that you
you're saying it's sort of, in JEST like i know
what you're trying, to say but like this has become a.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Whole thing WHY did i call Him?

Speaker 4 (27:16):
Baby joki oh you didn't call him Baby yok You
said jokic, esk right you describe something with THE passes, i.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Said players move around him differently like yokicch and Shape.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
Like, jokichen okay, My bad but Like the yokic stuff is,
out THERE and i fucking. HATE it i hate IT
because i think it's just it's putting so much pressure
on a twenty year old young man who at the
same time he's already dealing with the Pressure Of joe
dumore is making those two traits and making him like
the lynchpin of. Those, TRAITS also i think the comp.

(27:45):
IS wrong i think it's the wrong player that is
being used. For him THE more i watch Him, play
dan the more he reminds Me Of, DeMarcus cousins just
the way that, he moves the way that he, actually
scores the way he handles the ball but like getting
from a dribble drive position into, scoring position the way,
he Passes like bookie was a super underrated passer. AS

(28:05):
well i think that's the comp. For ME whenever I
Watched derrek, queen play that's the player that comes up in.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
My Head, it's cousins.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
That's that's Better, than jokic. FOR sure i didn't Know
the jokic comparisons were going around in all That VAIN
he's I Know DeMarcus cousins was nimble footed for, his
Size But derek queen moves more like a Wing than cousins.
Ever did but then you Look And derek queen at
six' nine kind of is what a wing would be,
in the League so that cousins is. A way better

(28:35):
i don't know if there would even be a better,
one Out there but cousins just felt he had more
of that brute force nature IN him than I Think that.
Derek queen, does but yeah this, is definitely closer at
least when you're looking at as an on ball, creator
and score He's closer in Cousins.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Than a jokis and like that's not a, bad comp
either like before he went down and Like, really, kill
yeah yeah that dude what overpowering. AND highly, dominant i
mean that was the guy who was draining several, triples
per game he was getting to.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
The foul.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
Line it's on he was grabbing a, ton of rebounds savaging,
like five assists going twenty five, points per game like
he Was A. Freaking all star, but LIKE so so
i think it's important to also just put it And
the reason, i'm mentioning, it you know, the yoga stuff
like just take A Look at basketball reference already there in,
the Nickname section baby jokic and like, you you urge

(29:29):
it's just, Like ESUP guys like i hate it because
he's just not that advanced Of A playmaker ash yokich
with like who?

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Is who is as as our resident, FAN of hyperbole i.
DON'T mind it i think if you're using it to
if that's the bar against which he is now going,
to be judged that's. Where it's unfair but if you
just want to Get Excited about derek, queen, and, say,
yeah yeah oh he's like What If a Chema LaJuan
and nicola jokic? Had a baby i'm all, for that stuff,
just early on, because it's. Right it's funny it gets

(29:58):
to a point where it's grading if you're actively penalizing
him because he's not that right, for sure RIGHTS and THAT'S.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
I just i don't want that to be put, on him,
because LIKE again like, i said before he already has
To Carry the, joe DUMARS trades and i hate. THAT
for him i really genuinely hate, that FOR him because
i think it's so important to support young players that
that was completely out. Of his control he did not
ask to be like the centerpiece. Of all this he never,

(30:28):
asked of that and, everyone, Is Like well derek queen better, be,
good then, like come on give the.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Guy a break he's.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Twenty.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
Years old jesus so this is all a long way
From me saying I'm Own. The derek, Queen, YOU know bandwagon,
i love it giving Me Everything. About derek queen just
don't put the extra level of. EXPECTATIONS upon him i think.
It's so unfair let's, Let's let him let's allow him
to develop within. His, own pace Please it was it's

(30:57):
just never gonna happen because of.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
THE trade as i think, that this, podcast your podcast
other podcast will distinguish between that move and the player.
That he becomes but he's always just going to be inextricably.
Linked to that and maybe that's also part of the
impulse For saying baby yokich is the steaks.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Are already, just so high so you might as well?
Just WHY not now i have three follow up. Questions,
about this. Okay go ahead what do you what do
you make?

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Of the shooting he's at about seventy eight percent from.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
The foul line he has been god.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Awful from three do you see this as someone who
could develop as it.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Doesn't have to, be high volume but oh we trust
him to.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Hit SET jumpers, So i yeah you're you're asking a,
good Question there because i'm still.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Not, so surprised no.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
That's A, good que no you ask. Good questions generally
but but you're catching me a little bit on This
one because i'm still not settled within myself TO where
because i love the stroke from the, free throw, LINE
the three i don't like, the shooting mechanics just like
he's extending himself a little further further than what. He's

(32:05):
COMFORTABLE with but i do respect that the fact that,
he's taking THEM and as i said at the top,
of THE program like i also like that he's taking those.
SHOTS without hesitation i think, that's a great. Great Encouraging
sign but i'm like curious in, regards to like if, he,
keeps missing right is that going to? Affect his confidence

(32:25):
is he going to start like second guessing himself when,
he's taking threes or is he capable of going through
a whole year, where, He's saying look i'm gonna take
a three or two per game BECAUSE that's what i
need to do for. My own Development and if i'm
gonna end up shooting ten percent over the course of
my rookie, season on them. So be it if he,
has that mentality, Good, for him genuinely that'd be great because.

(32:48):
That's WHAT'S necessary, BUT i personally i think he's like,
a year away maybe a year, and a half two
years away from like really being a, three point shooter
someone who's should take them. With high regularity but at,
THE same time i fucking respect what he's doing because he.
Hears the noise i've been saying it for like half,

(33:09):
a year, now you, know no three, no d guy that's,
not exactly, encouraging you know as, a lottery pick, And,
he's like hey, You know what i'm going to do.
My best offensively i'm also going to try to. GET
that three, I Respect. THAT derek queen i fucking respect
that he's trying to turn the, entire NARRATIVE around and.
I RESPECT it so i don't care what he. ENDS

(33:29):
up shooting i just want him to see that take
that shot again, and again again as long as it
doesn't affect. His CONFIDENCE level but i will say the
mechanics need work. FROM out there i honestly don't know
how to feel. ABOUT it either i do trust him
to kind of Score from The DeAndre and.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
ISAIAH hartenstein range i think that the, mid range game
even the long, mid range game, will come along and,
like we said with, the floater stuff we've seen some of. That, already,
WORKING yeah defensively i think he's been better than you
would said be.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Work on, Him no Three, NO d oh.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
I did too i'm he's guilty. Of that Too.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
He's.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Definitely no three at least they're. Not, going, in yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah he's not He's REALLY. Not NO d but i
do wonder this was, my other question what's the ideal
type of front corp? Partner for him it's not in
it's fun watching Him Play, with ZION williams and i want,
to be clear that is not the ideal front Corn Partner.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
For derek queen, so to.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
Me, he feels, like defensively speaking like a little bit
Better Than. Prime nikola vusovich, and you know people, will
say booge like he's. A, shitty defender yeah now now
that he gotten significantly, Older, and slower yeah he was
actually Pretty, Decent in orlando like. He understood angles he

(34:48):
knew he wasn't going to be a, major shot blocker
so what he wanted to do was deter players from
taking a, lot of shots so like he would roachate in,
THE same time i feel that's sort of what We're
Seeing with derek. QUEEN right now i. DON'T hate that
i don't think he's going to be someone who ends up,
being you know quote unquote, a great defender like a.
Generational defender whatsoever so if we put him into that kind,

(35:12):
of You know, player archet Type A prime, nikola vusovich
defender then, you, ask yourself like what what is the
type of defender you need Alongside A? Prime nikola vusovich
and Is That A? Jaron jackson junior is that like
An In? Prime aaron Gordon like who whoch? Actually, played, With.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Like yeah aaron gordon's. A good one I had been
i'd Been Thinking About. Jaron jackson junior i'd been Thinking
About og an andobi would have been My PRIDE good
and i think now, after watching him you want someone,
From THAT mold but i don't think they need to
be as good right to where it's if it was
what would be a good If It, was kegan murray
who's been really good defensively, when he's healthy but He's

(35:52):
not Og Anobi's.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Not aaron gordon, if it was even if It Was,
j allen johnson maybe that's.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
A little TOO light but i and those are. All
good play this is not you Can't Just. Find jalen
johnson That's not what i'm. Trying to say but you
don't need in all defense caliber four or five next
to him for at least for your baseline, defense to
work is my. Very early impression we have Not Talked.
ABOUT jeremiah fears i don't know how you felt about

(36:20):
him coming out. OF the draft i Was Not A jeremi.
Jeremiah fears guy he Turned Me. In summer league he
has continued to turn. Me ever since the three point
shot can, still be shaky but thirty six point four
percent on, self created threes that is money he. Needs
to bring he was higher on catching shoots earlier. In
the year he's down to thirty six, point eight percent

(36:41):
but that gives you confidence that he can be an
above average or. Average set shooter he's Still shooting over
his percentages have come down over the past, couple of
weeks but he's still shooting over fifty percent on nearly thirteen,
drives Per game which he's another guy where when you look,
at the volume when you look at just the level
of defense of attention he commands with his live dribble

(37:02):
if you're gonna shoot over fifty percent on drives at that.
Volume per game and, by the way he's not even
playing thirty, minutes a game so thirteen drys under thirty
minutes per.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Game is insane the shooting, at the rim this.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Is per cleaning the glass has dipped below, fifty eight
percent and he's not drawing a. TON of fouls i
honestly don't care about either of THOSE things because i
just think that. They're gonna come his on ball speed and.
Handles ARE insane and i would also say the. Defense
of playmaking he's pretty frenetic at points when it comes

(37:35):
to denying the ball when he's guarding, away from it
and he's really good at generating steals if he's playing.
The cutting lanes this is TO me when, I watch
him i want to make it clear with at least
the finishing, around the, RIM the, Handle i see Oh
What if kyrie irving was more of. A defensive playmaker
that's a Terrible comp because fears is not The shooter

(37:58):
that kyrie has. Basically always been but he just has
those daring do handles and then the types of finishes
that he can attempt. AROUND the basket i am way
more In on the jeremiah of yours experience THAN not
only i, expected TO be but i expected to be
Relative to this PELICAN situation where i think you look
at this roster and say it's not Really optimized for,

(38:21):
jeremiah yours strengths and yet he's still been a.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Relative to, expectations to me he's. Been really good.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
He's been good i'm actually curious why you were not
a guy?

Speaker 3 (38:32):
Who you Know you Weren't you?

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Weren't jeremiah fierce guy's kind of what you said going,
into the season or at least last?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
Year in? College? What what what what was like outside.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Of the shooting it's just those are the red flag.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Types for me is it's always KIND of why I
was more i don't want, to Say Disenchanted But john morant.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
I'VE never been i.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Think he was transcendent, at HIS peak but i always just,
kind of wondered if the jumper is not going, to
come along what?

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Does HE become and I.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Tend to i can move, on my opinions especially if
they're gonna, try ON defense which i think we've Seen,
That from fears but he's KIND of just. I DON'T
know there's i, love THE aesthetics so i go off
vibes And So like john morant is entertaining in part because,
of His aesthetics but fears shooting the ball better FROM
three than i would have expected in those play situations has.

(39:22):
Helped a ton but it's why so coming out this
Is a good this is a great discussion because you
weren't so Much Of a. TREY johnson guy i inherently
believe more in those archetypes scaling to HAVING a successful
NBA career than i Do someone like fears because it
feels like he needs to prove this. Really important SKILL
and then i probably didn't trust whether his finishing.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Was going to be a lead, enough, to say well
we know he can do.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
This one, THING now here i am sitting looking at
the percentages and, it's, all, right like yeah he's decidedly
below average at the, rim right, now but no he's
just going, to.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
Be fine, Right, two questions one did that did you
Also STRUGGLE with tyree's maxi back, in the day because
then because he came into the league with not not
a reputation of being a shooter and now obviously he
is WAS that because i made That Mistake. WITH tyre's
maxie i was skeptical when he came. INTO the league,

(40:16):
i was like he, Didn't Shoot Well, LIKE i'm i'm
i don't think necessarily he's going to be as clean cut,
of fit.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Yeada YadA YadA but he. Was the motor, it was like.

Speaker 4 (40:25):
As soon as he started just displaying the ridiculous motor,
that he had, It, was like okay, you know. WHAT
screw it i made a. MISTAKE with fears i struggled
initially with, the three TWO not because i actually thought
he was, a bad shooter but like he just took,
Bad shots right like he was a guy who would
take so many very very long pull ups over the

(40:47):
course of last, season IN college where, i was like
that's just a. Bad SHOTS selection do i trust that
GOING into the Nba and now jordan, pulls his teammate?
What IS right but i would never. Questioned the motor,
and that's why like EVERY single time i, WATCHED him play,
i was like, you know what that that three point concern,
That just began it begins to fill less and less.

(41:09):
In my head it's just, sort, of, like yeah okay
you know what he'll. Figure it out like, the motors.
There you could he's basically a bunch of clay and
you can just sort of create him as. You want
to he's, just too, quick too strong which sounds ridiculous
when he's like he wets what one seventy, five or, something,

(41:29):
but like.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, pretty the, strength.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
That RIGHT exactly and i trusted, his touch too because
when he would get into like that mid range area in,
college as well and he would pull up LIKE those,
Were nba moves like, Those, Were like oh i'm gonna snake,
The pig roll i'm gonna get into the. Foul line
area i'm just gonna pull. Up on guys, it, was
like huh. Look like that we're seeing like at least,

(41:53):
two or THREE like legit nba moves from a shot
selection perspective every single, game at least and we're seeing,
like the playmaking we're, seeing the rebounding we're seeing the.
Athleticism as well so that was that WAS something that
i never really was too. Concerned about it and the
second question for you is the fact that his shot
selection was, bad in college but the fact that he

(42:15):
was still a decent shooter when he took you know quote.
Unquote normal shots was that baked into your concern the
fact that he just took those.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
Outrageous JUMPING offs so.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
I Think no it actually the bigger thing was having
questions about what would the shooting look LIKE at? The
nba level and then is this somebody who could like the?
Other player type that disenchants me is these guards who,
can't be wings but they can't be point guards and
so basically two guards where it feels like that position
doesn't exist at least in. Proliferation, as much yeah, AND

(42:49):
to me i still don't know if he can drive
the offense. As a playmaker but because he's just so
quick on ball, and the defensive like when you look
at how many bodies or being drawn to the ball when,
he's getting.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Downhill he's going as they get.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Better shot makers and even better, cutters around him it's just.
Gonna BE easier and i think if you have pairing
him with sort of like not To, bring back jokic
But The way jamal murray IS. Paired, WITH nicolea Jokic
I think jamal murray is the Better. Passer than fears
let me, make it clear but to Be the second
derry playmaker on your team as the starting primary guard

(43:25):
that feels more so well. Within his reach and so
those are the two Things that are they were red,
flags for me and they're as of right now they're not.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Red. Flags Anymore so the.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
Pelicans got Nicolea Jokicch and jamal murray, in this Draft
is What i'm.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
What, i'm, hearing okay well.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
They might have Gotten Better, than jamal murray, but you
know defensive playmake The Way that, jeremiah fears does maybe
like Playoff Super. HEALTHY jamal murray i do want to
SHOUT out because i did watch them. Film On him
michaeh pev is a defensive psychopath and he's incredibly. Tough
to screen they Had him guarding wemby for like an

(43:59):
actual stretch at one point when They. PLAYED the spurs
i do not know if, he could SHOOT and if i,
had to guess the answer is probably going. To be
no and that's kind of because.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
But he is just.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
DEFENSIVE for neticism i do Not Have any, hunter, dickinson's.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
THOUGHTS though so i.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Apologize that's fair did you want to take us to
another team?

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Slash player PLAYER primarily because i don't really want to
talk about this.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Team TOO much, WHENEVER i do i, start BEING oh?

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Can?

Speaker 3 (44:26):
I GUESS yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Can? I, guess Then, Yeah, the, grizzlies yeah yeah we
need To Talk about cedric Coward And.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
Only.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Cedric, coward, man look well we just did twenty Minutes.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
ON the pelicans i want to know what other national
podcast is doing that without focusing solely on The Trade that. Joe,
DUMARS made wow i. Mean we did we did, TOUCH on, it.
I said solely we focused on the return, of.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
The Trade Which.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Was derek queen but so did we find The new
era mikale, Bridges In? Uh cedric, Coward Because well. Draymond
green disagrees, he thinks that and, this is oh you
were never allowed to start a.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Sentence, That way no so his, response, THIS is well i.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
SHOULD say this i Don't Listen to, draymond green's podcast
but THE clips that i see going around are not
as insightful as the comments He Made about cedric cowhard
that seem over the. Top and Wrong He thinks cedric
coward Is The. Next kwhi leonard but the way that
trapped it Out and said kawhi, couldn't do this he
Couldn't Shoot like cedric cowhard when he came. Into The

(45:36):
league cedric coward maybe can't DEFEND like how, i could
now but like, That evening out but the answer he
gave was just, so IN depth and i was If
This was, DRAYMOND green's podcast i Would Listen to. DRAYMOND
green's podcast i Think You saying michale bridges or even
someone else in that vein makes MORE sense because i
don't see the and we didn't See this with kawhi,
to be clear coming in the primary shot creation like

(45:59):
Type From from frederick, Coward, Right now.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
Yeah i'm okay kawhy is the hell of, A, pool
there okay Especially with Somewhere Remember.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
When gary harris was Going to be kawhi. Two point
zero that was the like.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
THIS is no i.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
Don't remember that.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
In five thirty eight It Was WHY gary harris i
Think It, was chris harry who's, a spectacular writer went
Through The latis gary harris Was having a it was
one of it was, a great article but like we
just get caught up and these players are having career
seasons or doing, a certain thing and so we just
throw these. Comps out there Coward What if cedric coward
Is both Mckal Bridges, And, kawhi, leonard.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Like like is he is he stuck between the middle
of them or is he both at.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
The same time he's both at.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
The same he's the best Version of both kawhi and, oh, My.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
God okay so so Basically He's a kawhi leonard.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Who actually plays that's.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
What he is because if he's A combination Between Kawhi,
and mikail bridges he plays eighty two games.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
Every single year.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Any plays, With pace too he's not really going to
juice the pace.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
All right to.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Turn serious though hell of a Pull By, the memphis grizzlies,
and you know this is what. They can do THIS
is where, i love, them you know being able to
just find these guys in the middle of, the first
round even later in, The first round like they. Just
find guys it's it's always the top. Of the draft
that becomes a little bit. Tough for, Him But like cedric.

(47:29):
Coward is awesome he is, going to, be you know
one of THOSE three and d guys who we all
look at over the next ten years, ago good lord
like he would fit in so well at insert every
single TEAM in, the nba here like he's.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Just, so plucking yeah what team would he?

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Not, work on. Yeah Exactly right the king is probably
because they're.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Might.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
Fix the kings he, look serious question you're joking If
You replace demarta rosen et cetera, coward Right now the
kings are a.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Batter basketball team that's not That's more about i'm about what.
But that's not that's, JUST not spicy i guess because,
first Of all the kings are overloaded, with non Wings
Even though doug christie thinks that.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
They're not right, My point is. Damar is good the.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
Mar's super talented here's a guy, who's you know obviously,
coward is too but he's not not as, well around
it like his skills are, primarily you. Know two factors
but he's going to fix stuff because he's not high
usage like this dude is.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Going to be.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
A WINNING player and i Just hope the grislies understand
what they have.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
On their hands they're, Starting, him now yeah so that
must mean. That, THEY do yeah i mean my question
would be is what is how good or valuable can
you be if he doesn't if you're not going to
if you have to be the second or third, option
on offense and even the way he, plays offense now
he probably needs to be more of like. A third

(49:04):
option he's just and. He's a rookie this, could still
develop but if the self creation, doesn't come still He's
kind of he's had a guard some really tough assignments on.
The defensive end the shooting has been just incredible by
and large.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
The entire season.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
He's shooting really like sub thirty eight. Percent on drive
so that's a little bit of. A CONCERN there but
i think if you just want someone who's, plug and
play and we've seen he's been able to move like
when he does have the ball in his.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
HANDS with it i don't know what. HIS ceiling, IS
i know i know that we've.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Thrown Names around McHale bridges feels More Fair, than kawhi
leonard but even That is McHale bridges.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
WAS always okay i have another, one for you which.
You're gonna love his top Tier Ceiling is turmanty kamara
with a more. Staple offensive game.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
So you know that would imply that you don't have
high expectations for if he could do anything, on.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
The ball well not.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
NECESSARILY like that I mean tomorrow tomorrow can, do the,
attack closeout stuff but that's, really, The Extent.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
Right but i'm saying a more, Nuanced OFFENSIVE game like
I don't think coward necessarily is going to be someone
who you can give, the ball, to would say go,
make a play because we also have. To be realistic
he came into the league as. An old rookie he's
twenty two already, he started, THIS so like i think
we're a little bit closer to, like his, prime his

(50:30):
ceiling and even if he doesn't have the on ball
Chops Like, at tumani kamara with a more efficient and higher,
volume offensive game is that not a thirty.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
Million, Dollar, player honestly.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
No it is, and then look he's a. Willing, ball
mover yeah isn't going to. On his drives he's, not
shooting well but he's not going to turn the ball
Over reight toon and JUST the thing i, come back
to And this is i'm just, GOING to continue i
guess spotlight your point from the top of the podcast
about rookies being better defensively even when he was coming,
off the bench just the guys that he had to

(51:04):
line up against without really having any help being left to.
His Own, Devices Kay, Cunningham Cooper, Flag, Devin, Booker. Shake,
gilges alexander, yeah that's Bonkers and so. I'm WITH YOU
he's i i just struggle with his ceiling in.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
A good?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
WAY is that i think whatever we said it at
where it's either gonna be too ambitious or. Not ambitious
enough because if you start Throwing, like is ojiannaobi does?
That make sense or he's not Really gonna do he's
not like the. Five position guys. So that's tough.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
I'm Gonna Stick with tremani kamara with a more. Consistent
Three pointer McHale.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Bridges feels closest just with mchal bridges higher VOLUME from
three i think would.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Be feels close. It feels close maybe it's just for.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Like, Seven years yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Look the version of mckel bridges we're, WATCHING this season
i will take eleven times.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Out of ten yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
He, is great yeah but so do You, think that's
yes this all comes to the Head of the grizzlies,
in their direction, whatever it is what level of? Cornerstone
is he is this someone where it's They should trade
jah And Rebuild around Cedric Coward and jared jackson junior,
or In Theory if john moran is going to normalize

(52:19):
at some point, And Stay healthy cedric coward is almost
in the best spot because he is kind of that.

Speaker 4 (52:25):
That, third, wheel so yeah you Don't Build. Around cedric
coward that very important to me that you, don't, do
that because like as many superlatives that we've, thrown out
here he's. Not that dude he's not someone you just
tear down your. Organization FOR now would i prefer to

(52:45):
see him with a POINT guard who's i guess we
can just say it More Mature, than john moran someone
who's More Disciplined. Than, john moran yeah Like if The
hawks and grizzlies were to do, my you Know Pretty
simplistic John Moran for. Trey young trade THAT'S one Where
i think cedria cow would be super Interesting next to,

(53:07):
Trey for example jaw specifically IS not someone i want to.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Pair, him with well so?

Speaker 1 (53:13):
What is it so throw the if like the stuff you're, Talking,
about leadership.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Okay three point the lack of, three point shot like the.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
LACK of space i was just curious as to Why
you Like. Trey than.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
Jaws the gravity the. Gravity for sure THE gravity Also
i think trey's. A better playmaker i think he's. He,
HIS thck Yeah i think trey has a knack, for
finding guys especially outside the, three point line a Lot Better.
THAN jay is i Understand that every grizzlies fan is
going to throw this stat at us Again Where whenever,
john moran plays they win sixty percent, Of the, games,

(53:45):
AND like yeah. I hear you but at, the same
time you gotta look at like how it seems, built
ULTIMATELY speaking AND i think i would want a point
guard who is more playmaking oriented and has more AND
capabilities if i want to optimize The, Playoff CENTRIC coward
so i would want Someone Else.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Than.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
JOHN morant uh i Do Think The jared Jaction junior
centric coward fit is. Actually pretty decent coward obviously is
going to take over the rebounding department because he's better
At it Than Jaron. To action junior THAT'S not even
i should have known. THAT was, coming i mean it's not. Even,
a lie dan look.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
At, The numbers no.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
I'm just saying i'm just saying you could Have Commented
on cedric coward's REBOUNDING rather than.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
I could could i really We're talking about Memphis could
could i'm CONTRACTUALLY obligated whenever i. Have, A chance no
i do like like the defensive potential of that duel
at least, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
He man YEAH the, More i know i'm focusing too
much on your. Comps for it but so He leads
the grizzlies in points scored in transition just. BY a
mile I think the mcallbridges comp. Is probably best. And
That's look cal bridges didn't turn into a more of
an on ball guy until what like the final part
of His.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Leg in, phoenix yeah right He.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Was an he was an, older, rookie too right so
that might that might Be The comp cedria coward is
if You were doing Rookie of the year, rankings right
Now It's probably conk Nipple followed By, flag, OR coward,
Right i know.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Edgecomb is there oh that's a.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
TOUGH top four i had not because, FOR whatever reason
i had just not been thinking like walk you. To your,
vote Let's so let's i'll ask, You, THIS then okay
i know you haven't, thought About this because i've only
thought about it. Three seconds ago if you were redrafting
This Draft class cooper flag. Still, goes one Yes Where
does Cedria, coward go well he, doesn't go too Because That's.

(55:52):
STILL dylan Harper I think conk nipple didn't goes three At.
This point edgecomb, that's Harsh, THOUGH BECAUSE edgecombe i i feel.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
There's, More there still does he Go?

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Five, over baily. YEAH he's tough i would be shocked
to see if he.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Got PAST six and i think there might be a
team that would be willing to bet that he will
have a better career than at Least ONE of and
i Don't know if i'm falling, in this camp so
this doesn't necessarily take but it wouldn't shock me if
a team decided to take him over One, Of.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Ca Nipple, edgecomb or bailly.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
If not more that's where the age kills me, a.
LITTLE bit though i GUESS that's but i hear you
like in terms of like the the the level of
play that he has and the fact that he's since
what's attractive about him is the fact that, he's PLUCKING
play and i think that is why teams are also

(56:52):
prioritizing that, Type of player guys who can just come
in and shoot, off the catch who can integrate themselves
without having a huge use of the.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Rage usage rade that's a tough. Word for me.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
They're just so damn LIKE valuable, for nba teams and
so the fact that he's not someone who will demand
the ball, TO that extent i could see like a
handful of, teams go yep that's exactly. What we need
that is what we. Love about it if he was
twenty years old instead, of twenty two.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Then we have a. Conversation for two, YOU'RE.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Probably right i still Practice Go with dylan harper just
as the pro because even If Even if cedric, COWARD
is twenty i Don't know if i'm looking at, him,
and saying oh he could Be the north star from, MY.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
REBUILD now i i gun, TO my head i Would Still.
Go DYLAN harper, BUT i mean i know the thing
about me with with draft, guys as well it's when.
THEY'RE that old i never buy into this whole, mentality
of oh that player because he's twenty two or twenty
three is automatically more.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Be a ready, oh oh really should we Check In
on Nee? Clifford and?

Speaker 4 (58:05):
Sacramento should we we will in. A, little, bit okay, great,
but yeah. No he's great he's kind of My Point,
about cid coward you Picked.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
To the grizzlies i'm gonna Pick, It's the jazz But
It's really ace Bailly Uh And walter clayton junior who
will get. TO as Well i so ace baally didn't
have the best start, to the season and some of
the efficiency numbers can, still be rough but he is
since entering the, starting lineup more shooting sixty nine percent
on twoes and thirty eight. Percent on threes he's still

(58:38):
shooting pretty low, on his drives but he's seventy.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
One percent conversion rate per cleaning the glass.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
At the rim he could stand to, get THERE more
which i think that's if he's gonna attack. Off the
dribble he has some of these like baseline drives where
he's just gonna yam it when he gets. TO the
basket i want to see him be more physical. In
that regard but and we kind of talked about this,
at the top just, AS an example i have, been
really impressed especially lately with how hard he's working just

(59:05):
to fit in and it's running the floor in transition
the offensive rebounding like he works.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
For that too we Saw It. In summer league he's
still continuing.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
To, do that now they've insulated him a little bit
MORE defensively than i thought they. Were going to but
he's been active for the most part around. There as
well but they've also there was when they Were playing
the lakers, the other night a game, they almost won
he had a massive Shutdown stop on luca where he
just he's stuck with him for basically the entire possession
that was able to poke. The ball away you look

(59:35):
at someone the way they're A the way bailey is
able to move laterally for someone his size as he continues,
TO get stronger i think that's gonna be a. Really
scary defender, my ONE complaint and i try not to
complain a ton about, higher profile rookies and this is
probably more of. A jazz thing i think that they
need to do more to make him at least. A,

(59:57):
SEMIFOCAL point again i. Love this stuff, he's coming around
screams well, off the ball he's lifted up from the
corner or relocating if he needs. To exceptionally well he's
run fewer than ten, Pick and rolls he's used FEWER than.
Ten iso possessions i'm not saying those need, To BE
crutches but i would like to See More of ace
bailey in those. Types of situations maybe That's something that

(01:00:18):
Jazz Do Post all star break when they feel more.
Comfortable with him but after it kind of a start, where,
it was oh he's not in the starting five and these,
PERFORMANCES aren't great i think that he's kind Of proven
he's for anyone who is concerned that they took him,
where they did he's already alleviated a bunch of that
with his play over the.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
PAST few weeks.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
I agree with everything you just said for one particular.
Reason as well getting him more involved in off on
ball stuff and getting him downhill is also going to
put so much more pressure on the defense to make
a decision because, he is long. He is athletic he's
not a guy you want to see. Attack the, rim

(01:00:58):
and currently and this is, ridiculously low number he's played
three hundred and sixty six MINUTES in the, nba so
far he's taken. Nineteen, free FROs so like the, FREEFROW
generation stuff i don't even think that so much of that.
Is on him it's more, of the setup like him
being sort of. A bailout option he kind of reminds
me a.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Little or not.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
He reminds me the role that he plays reminds me
a little bit Of how The Kings used keegan murray.
The first year oh where, okay it, was you know
it was not exactly like the to the full extent
like Because they used keegan almost exclusively as like a
spot up. Three POINT shooter and i Think that the

(01:01:39):
jests are trying to do maybe a little bit More,
mean with bailey but, not a lot and so he's
become this. Bailout option instead and what have We Seen
from keegan murray since? That rookie year have we seen
him get to the fall line? A?

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Whole bunch.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
NO not really i think those reps are so important
early in, a PLAYER'S career so i would make it
a major emphasis of them to get, him the ball
put him in, screen roll situations. Get him Downhill Because
if ace bailey's primary calling card is going, to be
scoring which, let's be real that. Is a thing that

(01:02:12):
is how we gauged him. All last year and.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
There are just moments too off, ball on ball He's
very tam maki in. A, good way yeah so that
is going to be that's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Going to be i'll be shocked if it's not. His, calling, card.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Well okay then then let me ask.

Speaker 4 (01:02:27):
You this question if you're going to be, a primary
scorer if that's or at least one of the primary scores,
on a team can you do that if you're taking
like two free?

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Froze per game.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Who is the i'm trying, to think of who's the
guy that is that would be driving a? Really good
offense or is the number one option that you, Look,
and sit oh he doesn't get to the. Foul line
enough there aren't a ton of those because when you
look at all The Best Ones, LUCA jannis jokic I
Mean even steph, yes with That and like steph would

(01:03:03):
be the blueprint for he's not going to, dominate the
ball but he still has the ability. To, draw fouls
yeah is there ONE who? Am i missing there have
to be. Missing, SOMEBODY there well.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
I mean there isn't. A leading score there isn't someone
out there putting.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Up twenty two, at One point maybe tatum was still
like what at least. Four per game i'm, Talking right now,
Like Right now ace bailey is attempting one point one
free fro attempts per game in twenty one and. A,
half minutes like even if scaling that up to, per
thirty six we're talking about. One point nine that is
such a. Ridiculously low, Number and again i'm not putting

(01:03:40):
that on. AT his feet i think that's a Structural
thing in utah that they. Need to fix but it's
it's just something to keep an eye on because if
you're it's been a big issue of Mine again with
sacramento not trying to dig into that Part of, Keithen
murray's game like keiking is what eight to forty are?

(01:04:01):
We gonna see if we're gonna say he can't absorb
contact coming closer, to, the rim bullshit of. Course You
can't ace bailey is an atchile six'. Ten and supremely
athletic if he's just gonna stand around the three point
line for the most of His career because the jazz says,
that's the best idea then you're not using him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
In the Right, manner Like ir yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
How i'll push back a little bit in the sense
of especially because wasn't one Of The questions for ace
bailey coming in could he do the ancillary stuff consistently
or in higher volume so at least, earlier on the,
way We Would say let cedric coward. Be, a good
example Well maybe they the grizzly should just test him
on the ball to see if he. Can do these

(01:04:44):
things is this sort, of, way of saying Well Let's
see if ace bailey.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Can, handle a more. Streamlined, Less, central role right okay
there's value, in that To me is. What, i'm getting
at sure but you.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
Want him to, become, MORE than that rightultimately.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
I mean for, Sure but we're like i'm with you
IN the sense that i want to. See more of
it but when you're fewer than twenty, GAMES into HIS
career i think i kind of get especially when you're
still you're still, trying, to figure out well who's going,
to lead our offense And You have the isaiah collier
injury to open up the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
SEASON that complicated that i understand.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
IT a little bit i, WOULD like to again i,
want to see more but we already he's been promoted,
To the starting lineup but like we know, that HE'S
starting now so i think that. THOSE steps will come,
I don't view it i guess as as big of
a transgression at this, stage as YOU do even though
I do agree that i absolutely want to see more of, what,
you're talking.

Speaker 4 (01:05:39):
About right and again it's just, To clarify once again
i'm not putting.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
IT at his feet i think. He's by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
SOME of it is i think he's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Been A little bit and i don't know if this,
is an organizational mandate but two passive at points to
where you can see hesitance even on some of his, catch.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
And shoot threes even he.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Doesn't he can't decide, he catches the, ball decides to
draw and, Then it'snt no waight i'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Going to do this i'm going to go back to
a step back or get.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Rid of the, ball so the onus especially when you're
looking at how deep can he get when he is,
Attacking with the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Ball the consistency THERE some of that i do. Think is,
on him, All right that's.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
FAIR that is fair i generally think the players spawned
to the type of roles that they, get by an
organization and sometimes they.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Look over their shoulder.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
I've been, told to DO this like am i allowed
to break out Of the constraints that i'm in this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Role Because The? Danger, is, keegan Murray Though.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
RIGHT like keegan murray, I think he's great but when
we were talking about extensions your your question to me
was what is he? Offensively at this point like he
hasn't been. Able to do more we've SEEN percentages decline,
and I blame that and i Still, do on, the,
kings and so yes if this becomes sort of An
Habitual pattern for ace bailey to where they've decided to
use him, as a complimentary player and then What Was

(01:06:51):
Happening with keegan murray it wasn't even that he. Was
a complimentary player is that his usage was fluctuating wildly
because of the way that they. Jumbled, THE pecking, Order,
YEAH i think look i think that's. Totally fair to
wonder my guess would be if we're having This Conversation
after the all star break, and we're still wondering what
does It Look like if ace bailey has more plays
called for him or, more on ball Work then is

(01:07:13):
when i'll.

Speaker 4 (01:07:14):
Sell The, alarm bell keegan, murray by the way he
should be noted three games into his season this, year
doing pretty well even If without taking.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
The, wolves WITH him, Yeah but.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
I, mean, i'm just saying usually if you want to
end up averaging twenty four to twenty. Five twenty six
points you're probably not doing it by taking one to
two three thro. Us, every single.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Game no they're just taking all threes and making them.
A ridiculously, high, clip.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
That too well.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Yeah he's he shouldn't He's Four of eight ace bailey on,
step back threes already HIS step back three i guess
because he's six was he? Listed at six nine. HE'S
just so big i have. NO priors.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
For this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
I didn't i'm not i don't scout these guys while
they were like in. THE middle of school. I just
trust it i have no raction. NOW for doing it. I,
just trust it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
Oh by the way he, Listed at six ten i'm
just reminded that is super wrong because he came in
he tested a lot worse. Than what people thought he
came in like six SEVEN point, twenty five i think.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
OR something along this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
I thought he was listed he's. LISTED at six ten
i thought he's. Listed at, SIX nine that's yeah i.
Think you know that And This, is ON basketball Reference
so nba dot com is.

Speaker 4 (01:08:20):
A lot better. At the official Heights But, like on basketball.
Reference he's six ten that is not true that that is. Adding,
A little bit yes ctg has.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Him at six nine you said he's watched six, Seven
AND change.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
Memory like i believe he was listed. Without, big for
sure yeah but like, that, was without shoes right six.
SEVEN point twenty five i think He tested out at
it might have been six. SEVEN point seven, Five i
don't remember like there are limits TO the details that
i remember. From pre, DRAFT measurements but NO i mean

(01:08:53):
he's i like where he's at right now because the
start of, The SEASON was horrendous so i like the
fact that he's he's. Picking it up up and of
course now we're gonna talk about like your favorite guy,
IN the entire well i.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
WANT to ask you i wanted to ask you One More.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Question about ace bailey do you have any strong opinions
of him on defense.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Or as a passer the passing is tough because we
just talked about his role and he will look for bigs.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
In the pocket already That's the stuff that i've been
unable to formulate a real opinion on.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
FOR him so far i will be completely honest with
you and say that That is not something i've even
devoted a whole, lot of Attention too because When, I'M
watching the jazz i probably should focus, more ON their
achievements BUT i don't because i just look at a
very young team that it's also somewhat intentionally. Trying TO

(01:09:46):
be bad so i just don't put a lot, OF stock,
Into it I Think and without walker kesterer there because he's,
OUT for the year i, just kind, of, said all
right well they're, just gonna be bad. AND that's on
me i probably should be better at just looking. At,
The individual before Defensively, I'VE with the jazz i, just,
sort of like no no bother. Out of my head
so it's a good. Shout From your end i'll i'll

(01:10:09):
start to look a little Bit more of. A bailey's
defensive prowess, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
SIMILAR to offense where i think they need to give
him More cracks at the marquee. Marquee Role, type, stuff
walter clayton though, COMING into the season i thought that
maybe he would Be like the, best jazz guard basically
and that's.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Not BEEN the case and i also banked on his.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Shooting just being incredible it has not, been incredible so
far under. THIRTY percent from three i do think he
is one. Of their better passers he's still turning the
ball over on basically twenty five percent of, his pick
and rolls and he's also shooting only six of nineteen
out of.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
The pick, And roll right now he's shot okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
OUT of his drives i do like him when he's
in the, center of the floor leading.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
It and transitioning you if he can, GET in the
lane i think the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
COURT vision is there i did have higher hopes for him,
to start his career especially WITH you know his i
guess his minutes have gone up and, down A little.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Bit but i thought this was someone who.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
MIGHT start for them i don't think it's a bad
thing that he's come off the bench for all, Of his,
THIRTEEN appearances BUT man i think i got ahead of
my Steees Too. MUCH on walter clayton i don't think
he's nestinarily means he's gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
Be A bad pro but i was hoping for a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
MORE out of him i think, what, he has shown
though is that this is someone, who has the vision
whether the accuracy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Or the decision making is always. Going to be there,
as a different story.

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
Is he Better?

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
Than, ISAY a collier.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
Well i mean, better as a passer Just.

Speaker 4 (01:11:42):
As a, player i'm not THERE so like it's i
thought it was Very very optimistic of hughes to say
he might be, the best jazz Guard, LIKE even, Over
Keance i mean kiante george.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
HAVING a great season i, was just not predicting especially this.
Level of play making for you were predicting this, level of,
prey making.

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
This level but like he's hasn't exactly been clammed chowder
over the. Past Couple, OF years.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Kiante George.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
I mean kiante george i was really hyped through him,
after HIS rookie season so i probably overcompensated and was
disappointed what we've seen from him, so, FAR since then especially,
i mean even now the efficiency from beyond the arc just.
Refuses to come along but he's getting the. Foul line
a ton the, passing has been, there he's been sir.

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
You're being too critical the dude came in as a shooting,
guard and had to, like on the fly adjust to,
a brand new position the most tough position TO, learn
in the nba and this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Shot selection was awful, IT was you can't i don't
know what you're what are?

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
You, defending, Him against though.

Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Well i'm saying that the fact that he came in
as a guy who had like the green light To
do whatever at baylor and certainly made use of it
because his shot selection was horrid and he, was an
off guard like not really having to handle the offense.
To the Same extent comes since utah in year, one,
and it's told yeah you're gonna. Be a point guard

(01:13:07):
he ended up, starting forty four games and he, actually
did pretty well came back next year last year, and
got even better even.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
If his, efficiency, sucked and.

Speaker 4 (01:13:16):
Yes look his, shot quality isn't great it. Probably never
will be but considering what he had to do just
in terms of like make that position change and become
like a fully fledged, Starting level point guard.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
I'm just telling what he has not.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
BEEN until this season i don't think you could look
at it and say that.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
He's going to start but he played a lot of
point guards minutes both in his rookie.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Year and, sophomore year after all you got to. Give,
him that, THOUGH yeah but again i don't know what.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
You're defending him AGAINST i'm just saying i was a
little bit disappointed that he wasn't BETTER three YEARS because
i thought i thought the efficiency would be higher and
EVEN now he's shooting i guess thirty seven percent or
whatever it does. On catching, shoot threes that's fine he's he's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Having A good Year But, i thought walter clayton if
you were looking at who is the best playmaker LIKE
to Leave The i thought walter clayton had a. Chance
TO be it that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
I was clearly wrong i'll.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Totally COP to that but i also did not see
This Type of. KIANTE george leap.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
COMING i did not i actually didn't Even know that
the jazz we're gonna give him. This TYPE of opportunity
and i wonder how much sort of the way that
the opening season. Played OUT benefited, him but i mean
like he's doubled up his like free throws. P, thirty
six minutes basically it's just it's it's.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
Nuts and hitting it, at ninety one percent it's it's fifty.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
Three twos for some of the twos that he takes.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
Is a big deal it's amazing what happens when shot
quality and maturity sort.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
Of, starts to align well there.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Was also the.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Question about his maturity was he didn't he vacate? This
leave the season excuse? ME talking about it i need
to like really. Focus on mid range, and it, was,
well if what like that's not what this team needs from.
You at this point so he came back and he's
getting to The FOUL line, more like i said the
passing has, been in the patience the poison.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
Ball has been great really. Good season from him but
what Are Your. THOUGHTS on walter clayton i don't know
why you Turn This Into a kiante Georgian.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
NO so so clayton.

Speaker 4 (01:15:10):
I always thought coming into to, this season as well
when he was billed as like, not an elite shooter
but coming in as a as, A major shooting prospect
I was a little i thought it was overstated considering
how he shot the ball. At THE collegia level so i,
didn't anticipate, in having you know him coming in and
being like a knockdown three point shooter.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
RIGHT off the bat, i.

Speaker 4 (01:15:32):
Didn't expect this, though he's been struggling and, like to
be fair sometimes a player. Not A player's worth but
i do think a big part of the worth is
just sort of being reduced down to is he? Making
SHOTS or not And I Will give walter clayton junior
this the shot. Selection isn't necessarily bad he's just clanking.

(01:15:56):
Shits on right now and if he were converting on
a higher, percent each of them would we even be having.
THIS conversation about. Disappointment i don't know it feels like
a lot of this comes down to just. Make or
miss it, you're.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
You are right and he's shooting thirty nine percent. On
ZERO dribble threes but i Think The appeal of walter
clayton was that he was going to be able to
hit more of those, complicated shots right which as it.
Still might COME along i'm just i was way too
high on what his.

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
Rookie season, was going to be and EVEN the Role
that i thought utah. Might, MIGHT put him yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:27):
I mean that's fair but and and what doesn't speak
to his advantage is that. He's also twenty two. He's
an old rookie so like if he comes in, and
is you know sorry bad right, off the you know, Right, off,
the bat like yeah there's a chance he. Can figure
it out but historically old rookies coming, in and you

(01:16:48):
know having a pretty big curve to become fully flatched
rotation players not a.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Great, TRACK record there.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Yeah, i guess that's true he feels like someone who
might catch on later in the season of just like
just getting more of a feel for the, speed of
the game because, even when he's playmaking he just gets
off the ball like he's not someone who's gonna kill the.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Flow Of your offense and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
I'm always just going to, believe in those guys, AND
we have well, i guess in theory we thought we
had proof of concept when it came to what. The
shooting would, be so BUT yeah THAT'S his i THINK
i thought that i might go into the Season Looking
at oh ace bailey because of the role he had
ended up having what would be considered A Worse year

(01:17:35):
Than Walter clayton because walter clayton.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
Thrived in his role And Really it's been ace bailey
doing a.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Lot OF the stuff that i had questions whether he
would want to do a lot of the off ball,
work with the offense would he always be there for
the offensive rebounding if his usage.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
Wasn't through, THE roof so no i don't have.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
ANY major, red Flags I mean the a's bailey thing
is the Big one in the jazz got what appears
to be is going to be a very?

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Useful, player moving forward yeah do you?

Speaker 4 (01:17:58):
Have?

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
A NEXT pick.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
Ah do i like if we can go into. The
knee cliffer stuff but is he worth having a, Big,
time discussion about, oh we'll screw. It let's have it
an old rookie Going to be twenty how many times have?

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
You, said that. Now yeah twenty four he's gonna Be.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
Twenty four in.

Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
February THAT'S just ridiculous so i like some of the.
DEFENSIVE chops we've seen i. DON'T like the offense i
don't understand what his role is going TO be, at
the nba level. At least offensively speaking is he going
to be like a catch and, shoot three point shooter
because that's not. Historically been his thing is he going

(01:18:42):
to be more of an all ball creator because that
looks like that's a little BIT optimistic, at the nba
level because in order to get the ball, consistently at this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Level you, have to be really. REALLY good with it i.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
Don't THINK he IS so i think i feel like
he's sort of, stuck not between positions but between, on ball,
OFF ball and like i just don't know where. HE'S
gonna end up i think the the offensive.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
Ceiling is kind of all. Over, The freaking place.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
Yeah i'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
TOO worried about him i think that Even, now with
the kings he's shown that he can still, be a
ball mover so he's not going to.

Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
GUM up your.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Offense i think even if you end up pitching holing
him into, that off ball role that he will be.
An intuitive ENOUGH cutter he's already i think he's seven
to seven at.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
The rim this year that might be a little. BIT
out of.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Date i just don't the PROBLEM is is that i
was intrigued more by the on ball Offense Watching. HIM
in summer league i don't have a great. Feel for
it yet and for As bad as the kings are
and for his wing, light as they are whether if
You Want to call, nie, clifford a guard fine, he's
six to five like, he's a borderline wing. Especially On
this team kean allis. Already Isn't Playing enough, the sacramento

(01:19:54):
kings are with the exception that The win over the timbers like.
THEY kind, of suck i mean they're on a two
game winning streak because, we were, this like, why like play?
Him play him more this is not how many. Games
he's had won two games three games where he's, locked
over twenty minutes four games he's, locked over twenty minutes
and the last one he got over Twenty minutes was,
on november the twelfth In.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
A LOSS to atlanta.

Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
So i think they need to do more to plumb
the depth. Of his skill set i'm intrigued defensively because
he's already ended up covering some tough guys. AND held
his own i don't know if he could Do, that
in a okay we're gonna start him, and play thirty
minutes what?

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Does THAT look like but i.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
Think that he will wind up being a useful secondary
offensive player to where maybe you're not having, him run
the offense. Where if you could someone with his size,
at six to five running the offense, is always an
asset but just as a ball moover when he's gonna,
be in the lane, when he's in transition someone who.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
Will move off the ball.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
In the half court even the question will be do
you think the efficiency from the perimeter is? Going TO
come AROUND and i think i.

Speaker 4 (01:20:55):
Think, that it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:56):
Will okay this is all about, prediction and and. Well
you sound skeptical is there something you're noticing with the
What is the your.

Speaker 4 (01:21:09):
I'm noticing a guy who has who we used to
as a, as A Part. Before, Who's Patrick williamson well
patrick williams sing a, little bit out there just not,
doing a whole bunch like just standing around too often
when he does have a chance, to just change things maybe.
Just take that ball when he asked, the, opportunity to

(01:21:30):
say look, no one's doing something let's just.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Get on with it let me.

Speaker 4 (01:21:33):
JUST make something happen i think, he's being too passive
and that concerns me when you're that old as well
that you're because he comes in from what was it
five years in college if memory serves like he had
those Two Senior, years, at colorado state right so like
he should come in with plenty of hoops experience, from

(01:21:53):
the collegial level and now he's like he looks like
an eighteen year old rookie again sometimes like just GOING
around like? Should I attack here?

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
Should I? Do this should.

Speaker 4 (01:22:03):
I you're damn near, Twenty four years old like you
can't afford to wait around. THAT long like you i.
JUST think he's passive i. DON'T trust the offense i
DON'T trust well do? I trust THE playmaking i guess
i do, if it's you, Know, FROM the bench like
i don't trust him in any starting caliber. Situation at

(01:22:23):
this point if he's coming in as a secondary which
is kind of, your POINT as well do i trust,
him to, just make you know be a secondary, Playmaker,
off THE bench maybe but i need him to balance
that with some level, of aggression aggressive scoring because if
you're standing there ball watching and, looking AT everyone else

(01:22:45):
which i.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
THINK he does well i ALSO think that that's i
would argue that that might be by design or a
byproduct of The way that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:52):
The.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
Kings, ARE built potentially yeah i do think we've seen
some of the glimpses when, he's been in transition being
able to be a little.

Speaker 1 (01:22:59):
Bit more aggressive drawing he's dr.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
On FOULS in TRANSITION but i just i don't know
that the scope of, his similar to well NOT similar
to but i don't know if the scope of his
role has been large enough yet to. Have, any major
concerns yeah, You, look at it oh he's shooting seventeen
percent or whatever it is. On wide open threes that's.
Like a red flag but it's also one of those red,

(01:23:21):
flags where you say that's so low it's. Going to
come up if you were looking for him to be a,
primary on ball guy he might be the type of
secondary playmaker where it's you could Start him in the i'm,
not comparing the two but In The vein of derek, white,
to where it's oh it's cool when he's making plays
and there's two other options ball. Handler's on the court
But If you want derek wright to, won your entire

(01:23:41):
offense you might not be in, love with that idea.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
Or he's not going to be the most efficient version of.
HIMSELF in, that role.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
I think to me. It's the, shot volume you know
he's played two hundred, and forty one minutes he's. Taking fifty,
six shots you say is BY the SIGN which i can,
i CAN understand.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
THAT but i design, i might be wrong but it
doesn't it feel that could be a trickle down effect
of The way that. The kings, Are built.

Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
Might maybe but at the same time that is also
what concerns me, because on some level if you're, ON
a bad team i will always argue that you have
a sort of opportunity ahead of you if, you're getting
rotational minutes, and which he does like, he's played fourteen
games playing. Seventeen minutes per game it's not. Like he's
not playing he's played two hundred and forty one minutes on,

(01:24:26):
the year so far so it's not like he's, only
getting you know six or. Seven minutes per game.

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):
So you don't think that they should. Be, playing Him
more no.

Speaker 4 (01:24:34):
WHAT i'm saying is i need to see him make
use of those men's, a little bit more because if
you're playing on a team that's been a little bit,
of a shit show you have an opportunity that you can,
grab in some capacity be that, as a, ball mover,
a playmaker a, shooter, or just saying Hey You know what,
tomato rosen right now which just don't need to to

(01:24:56):
dribble the ball for sixteen seconds before you throw up
A contested mid range i'm just, gonna take this ball,
not even hold it just immediately attack off the catch and.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
Get TO the, rim, And i just yeah i'm.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
GONNA tell you why i just Don't think that where
if you look at, his most use lineups he's playing
basically at all times with At Least, Three Of dennis
Shruder Russell westbrook To Martin.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
Rosen and zach levine where where what what? Offense are
you taking what are?

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
You, SEIZING in, that Well i mean what i'm saying is,
that because you're right he, does move the ball which
means he does get, the ball as well right like
when it's swung, around on, THE perimeter AND occasionally i
just i want him to do something Else because, THE
entire king's offense i think we, both can both, agree is.

Speaker 3 (01:25:43):
Extremely predictable extremely predictable he.

Speaker 4 (01:25:48):
Has this unique opportunity of just throwing a fucking wrench, into,
everything and saying hey look here's, another layer, of it
and look it's that tough to. Put, on a rookie
yes but he's. He's almost Twenty four that's why i'm asking,
him to. Do, stuff mature stuff well.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
It sounds like you're asking him to deviate. And, Hijack, the, offense.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
SLIGHTLY yes yes slightly.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
I will advocate for him hijacking the offense just.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
TO see. What happens i will if you're saying that
he needs to be penalized for not actively hijacking or deviating,
from the GAME plan THAT'S something i thought i can't.

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
Get OFF board with.

Speaker 4 (01:26:26):
But, I you're right though i do want him to
hijack it just a little bit because occasionally that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
They were using some. Bonus before his injury this team.
Doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 (01:26:37):
There are just players who have to do it in
order to, get attention upon themselves and occasionally, some, team, will,
go oh oh okay, He's got.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
More juice like okay this might.

Speaker 4 (01:26:49):
Not be, the Once One example but Quentin grimes After
the traits, of, philly, basically, Saying oh yeah no i'm
not gonna be your your three, In d Darling here i'm,
gonna i'm, gonna start you know. Dribbling between my legs i'm.
Gonna start creating looks, i'm. Gonna start creating creating.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
But he didn't have the type of ball dominance around
him at the time Because of INJURIES in Philly that
i know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
Clifford, HAS right.

Speaker 4 (01:27:13):
Now well i mean he's still, LIKE when he came i,
understand the opportunity there but at the same time he
decided to, do SOMETHING about It and. I meet clifford
again i'm also, questioning the talent level because that's. Let's
just be real if you're playing five years in college,
at the same yeah and he's not super, he's.

Speaker 2 (01:27:33):
NOT you know explosive i don't know if he's gonna
ever create a ton OF arm. BALL separation i have
i have. Questions about him too. This is we're having
it sounds like A Similar discussion to keagan, murray all
over again to WHERE you're assigning what i believe is
more responsibility to the player for some of, the Shortcomingis
or concerns and i'm putting it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
More on the. Team and. It's right that's.

Speaker 4 (01:27:49):
Fair that is FAIR you know what i think, it
is For Me it's the dylan jones, Effect where you
know jones came in as, this all round guy but
that's NOT a role the nba has to offer unless.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
You're Like.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Invoking a dylan.

Speaker 4 (01:28:06):
Jones come right now, no but like no but you catch,
my drift row right like someone who comes into the
league with an all round game, At, the collegial level
like that's not a role that's available unless you're like
a freaking star, right. Off The Bat right and knie,
clifford had, that luxury you know in college because he,
was the focal point he was the guy who was.

(01:28:27):
The all around GUY coming into the nba and having to,
become a bit player. That is so tough it's not
always that we see guys, make that transition successfully.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
IT'S but it's, WHEN i watch him i feel like
he should be. Able TO do it, and, i also
wonder though how inflated are both of our expectations based
on What He did in summer league where he was.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
ACTUALLY doing a Lot.

Speaker 3 (01:28:47):
I didn't watch. Summer, league at all.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
OKAY well then. Then i just don't so you want.

Speaker 2 (01:28:55):
Him to do, more but more realistically he should be
fit into a role that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:01):
He's, Better, Suited for no no.

Speaker 4 (01:29:02):
I'm Saying the circumstances so i'm saying, the circumstances historically
speaking doesn't speak to a player of his ilk BEING successful.
At The nba level what i'm saying is that given that,
he's actually Receiving Minutes, unlike at, dylan jones for example
who just couldn't get on, the floor because like what the?

Speaker 3 (01:29:20):
Hell?

Speaker 4 (01:29:21):
Was his role Really you know, mee clifford is playing
and so when you are playing and you, are on
the floor make sure that people notice that you. ARE
on the FLOOR i think he's i think he's basically
someone who, tends TO grow invisible and i think that's
an issue even if, you're a bit player even if
you're out. There for special purposes being invisible in it

(01:29:44):
seemed context is just never a. Positive in my PERSPECTIVE
but that's again i agree with you that It's also
the freaking kings, that he could.

Speaker 2 (01:29:54):
GET and it's also i just think you're overstating how.
Much he plays like he HAS some games that i think.
Are Inflating his totals but i'm just. Look, ause game,
logs well.

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
All. RIGHT that's fair eleven i concede. That that is,
fair that is fair and he's played, a LOT less
recently so i guess my point is just when, HE'S
on the floor i need him to seize a little
bit more of.

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
The opportunity, he's given after all.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
Which maybe there'll be some if they trade one of
their bajillion guys, that don't make sense or they're going
to turn around and trade for another one of.

Speaker 1 (01:30:24):
Those types of guys and it WILL be even more.

Speaker 4 (01:30:27):
I still Like My DeMar for kensavious cobalt pope trade.

Speaker 3 (01:30:33):
Just to free up some. OPPORTUNITIES here And there.

Speaker 1 (01:30:37):
I hate damorro and jaw. ON the same team. I, don't, get, that.

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
No well look we can talk About the fit for.
Memphis all day Long but for, the kings at least
they may they might have. To give up something, But,
look and look jaw is he? Going, to be available like,
if he's not available you need someone to handle the?
Ball a Little bit why? Not DeMar did that. Seems going,
nowhere anyway. It's fine it'screw.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
It i'm Gonna Take us to Will Richard And. The
Golden state warriors the warriors just keep hitting these picks
in the fifties. OUT of the park i haven't Heard
As much from, quentin Post This season. BUT will richard
looks i don't want to, overstate what he's done and
we're just still so. Early in the season but this

(01:31:18):
is getting him, at number fifty six shooting forty eight percent. On,
spot up threes more he is eighteen of twenty. One
at the rim that is eighty. Six percent in transition
the two things that the actual points per possession, in transition.
Not sustainable absolutely insane one point six that's the most
among one hundred and forty five players who have finished

(01:31:39):
as many.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
Transition possessions as him this is the thing that. Caught
my eye more.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
He is so far out in front of his own
TEAM in transition That i think the warriors end up
in transition on plays that they weren't anticipating to.

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
Be in TRANSITION in and so.

Speaker 2 (01:31:53):
I looked ten their transition frequency off of live rebounds
increases by ten point.

Speaker 1 (01:31:59):
Seven percentage points when he.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
Is on the floor of everyone who is locked at
least two hundred and, fifty Minutes THIS season only resache.
I Found that Interesting steph castle and jokic have a
larger swing impact on. Their team's transition frequency, That's And
that's again will richard isn't the one that's jump starting
these possessions In A way That steph castle. And jokic
might be he's just so far out in. Front of

(01:32:23):
everybody else he's been. Good defensively for them he's had.
TO defend real guys i think he has great. Hands
on the ball he had one of the cleanest strips
of The Season just on devin vessel trying to do work,
from the mid RANGE and there was i don't know
if you saw it was one of the games he
had That Crazy pickpocket on john moran who tried to
do like a flyover dribble, or whatever it was and

(01:32:45):
he just clean swiped it and. THE other thing too
i know we're kind of In, the era of oh there,
are these crash zones these perimeter players are doing more
on the offensive. Glass Than we expect will richards is, just,
One of them APPARENTLY like, EVERY time i look i
feel like he's tipping a shot back out of the
basket or. Grabbing an offensive rebound, this is just, again

(01:33:07):
he has played, as we're recording. This in thirteen games
this is. Not a future star his true shooting percentage
doesn't line up with what We're Saying about the oh
i'm actually looking, at the wrong. Player so excuse, me
he's only played but like he's BEEN so good that
i think that this has the chance to be a
regular rotation player on a GOOD. TEAM in the NBA

(01:33:28):
i don't need i don't know. WHAT his ceiling is
i can't, really GET into that, but i would say,
as of right now this feels like more of a
Caps lock find.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
Than quentin post was.

Speaker 4 (01:33:40):
The only thing that makes me Less enthusiastic about will
richard is the fact that he scored twenty one point
six percent of his total season, points in One game
and so i'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
REALLY sure with her i should like.

Speaker 4 (01:34:00):
Ignore that and just look at, the rest of it
because he was so impressive in. That FURRY POINT game
like i I don't know if i can, sit, there,
and say oh yeah he's he's at that level. As
YOU alluded to but i will say this in terms.
Of accepting his role when, he's given fewer minutes he,
plays the same speed, whether he's you know playing forty

(01:34:22):
plus minutes. Or he's playing ten it's it's, it's the
same play, it's the same mentality, it's the same approach
and that is usually. The Key to success so i'm
encouraged in terms of, like the tail. Level the production
level i'm just not ready to like commit, to something
where oh like, he's a big steal. He's a big

(01:34:44):
get if we go towards the middle of the season and,
he is still efficient he, is still you know so
calculative in terms, of His shot selection then i'm joining.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
YOU on the bandwagon i don't.

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
Think he'll never stop being, Calculative of his shots like
if they, if he starts deviating if he if he
does What you want neat Clifford to, Do, the, warrior, again.

Speaker 1 (01:35:08):
No no No he's what well richard. Is doing right now it.

Speaker 4 (01:35:11):
Is a SMART play it's just i, usually struggle, when
guys you know have this one game that's a huge
outlier and and just gobbles up so many of their
ceason numbers this.

Speaker 3 (01:35:23):
Early in, the year? I'm like how much how much
can we?

Speaker 4 (01:35:26):
Look at everything, else but like again this is where
as you said, Earlier in the show it just IN
terms like, the i tests right like what are you
looking at and you're looking, At the activity level you're.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
Looking, at the approach yeah like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
THE three point shooting i think Would be the big
oh is this that's like the that's the game that's
going to pump up. The outlier stuff there but in
terms of him, getting to the basket flying around a
transition and defending and just being sneaky, ON the offensive
last i.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Think that he's.

Speaker 4 (01:35:52):
There, yeah, for sure yeah yeah probably concerning.

Speaker 2 (01:35:56):
That he's needed to play as much as Uh As,
He has golden state but that's a, that's a.

Speaker 4 (01:36:01):
Different issue that's a different discussion that. See, makes no sense.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
Uh did you have any other rookies that?

Speaker 3 (01:36:06):
YOU want to decide.

Speaker 4 (01:36:07):
I do not know i.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Have, A couple more Okay i think the clippers might
Have Found somebody in kobe. Sanders well to moderate he's
kind of one of the things that have.

Speaker 2 (01:36:17):
Gone right this season he was someone who was. Taking
at number fifty he can be. A little mistake prone
has turned the ball over on thirty three percent, of
his transition, processions which isn't great but he's Also sometimes
the only, clippers player IN transition and so i feel
like that needs.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
To count for something he shot the.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):
Three ball well, enough he's being inflated propped up forty
six percent from the corners in twenty nine.

Speaker 1 (01:36:40):
Percent on arc threes he's.

Speaker 2 (01:36:42):
Another one where he keeps The Ball, moving like nee
clifford and he's a willing passer on drives even if
it's not going.

Speaker 1 (01:36:48):
TO translate to anything i had this clocked Too From.

Speaker 2 (01:36:52):
Our Friend justin russo kobe SANDERS Is the first la
clippers rookie to log at least one hundred and thirty
minutes over a Five games Fan Since shit and landry.
Shamman in, twenty nineteen so yeah he's, GOING to be
traded i think is the. Moral of that sort and
the other thing that stands Out To me With kobe
sanders is they've Thrown him to, the WOLVES on defense

(01:37:12):
and i think that he's. Held up fairly well he
will work and he's pretty. Good at helping too so
if he's going to be, away from the action and that's,
JUST at number Fifty i know the clippers are a
disaster and so this might.

Speaker 1 (01:37:24):
Be, damning with faint praise but he's been one of
the bright.

Speaker 4 (01:37:28):
Spots of their season do you know what, HIS middle name, Is,
I do Not Michael. So he's kobe michael and now
that family Just. Ruined it with sanders they could have
gone so many different ways They, Could, Have Gone. James
kobe michael james there are. So many connections there i'm
just saying that what you're saying they. Should have actively

(01:37:49):
changed they. Should have.

Speaker 1 (01:37:49):
Actively changed they weren't they've they should have made it
more egregious than if that's what. It Should have been, Kobe,
michael lebron right yes the Should Have Just.

Speaker 4 (01:37:58):
BEEN cobe michael, KAREEM i don't, know i don't care
just something that, would be like yeah, also an older,
rookie by the way also going to turn, twenty four
this season so and this is this is The maturity
level that i'm kind of talking about someone who, comes in,
and Says All right like i've i've had My fun,
at THE Calicia level like i i'm ready to. Do some,

(01:38:20):
Damage here so. Yeah i'm with you. That's a good show.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
And THE other shout out i, WOULD like to well
i think there's two rookies.

Speaker 1 (01:38:28):
We could Talk, about Is. IN portland young handsome i
still believe he's just not Playing A.

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
TON young young hanson i think that he is going
to be end up being better on. Defense, THAN people
expect still i have not Changed that prior and i'm
still just interested to see. WHAT in more minutes i
think that he is someone who could. Be an instrumental
passer but they have a Lot. Of dudes on portland
they like, to play small too and so he's been hard.
Pressed TO get minutes, and i will say as someone,

(01:38:53):
who even loves him hasn't necessarily earned. A ton of minutes, Jonny,
THOUGHTS on, him.

Speaker 4 (01:38:59):
Well i, mean here's another rookie apparently during SUMMER league
play which i heard, about but Didn't See who. Got
nikola jokic COMPS so apparently nowadays i probably. Made some
of those apparently now it's Just easy, to get Jokic
Comps Which like okay nicola? Jokic even impressive anymore then
is Everyone? Just a new jokic is? THAT where we
are i would, like to say No but he the jolkic.

Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
PASS the other night I, was just like i he
we'ren't the point where he shouldn't be able TO keep
us in.

Speaker 1 (01:39:27):
Awe twenty four, seven three sixty five. AND he still does.

Speaker 4 (01:39:31):
I think that's why i, pushed BACK on it like i,
think it's so insulting like arguing arguably the best offensive big.
MAN of full time i.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
Don't think it's insulting It's, just become too again the
VIBES of, it all i get but we just. Throw
them around haphazardly and, if, it's, a JOKE yeah sure
but i think it's. More of a concern it's Not.
AN insult to yokic i viewed as if you really
because if You Think thought that jan hansen Was going
to be jokic and this is what, his rookie season
is you're you're going to.

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):
Believe he's a disaster.

Speaker 4 (01:40:00):
So so many people coming into this year just Incredibly. Disappointed,
in yon hansen no so honestly he's just played so
FEW minutes that are.

Speaker 2 (01:40:13):
I guess the real question is there's there's nothing to
take away. From, his rookie season well are you surprised?
He hasn't played.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
More there's one thing i'm.

Speaker 4 (01:40:21):
Taking, away from it uh him being allowed to take
threes at this RATE was something that i wasn't sure
was going. To be a thing i'm glad that they're
going this route because and they sort of they sort
of went The Same win with, donovan klingen basically, saying
you know what, We're, okay with that like we're okay
with you taking.

Speaker 3 (01:40:39):
THE three point.

Speaker 4 (01:40:40):
SHOT i love that i love the, centers like, have
that you know that green flag or that green light
to be able to go out and actually take it
because eventually it's going. To be a necessity so for
a young guy coming in the league and not having
TO worry about am I getting yank if? I? Take this?

Speaker 3 (01:41:00):
Three No take. It j.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:41:02):
FELLER it's fine.

Speaker 4 (01:41:03):
YEAH i like, That, i like that well he.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
He doesn't have worry about getting yanked because he's just
gonna play, eclusively, In garbage time right.

Speaker 1 (01:41:10):
But there was there's that and the other take.

Speaker 2 (01:41:13):
Just THE defensive takeaway and i can't remember what garbage
time GAME it was as, i saw him in but there,
was just two possessed straight possessions where he played both
ends of the pick and roll and broke up. One
of the, PLAYS and it's okay i don't Think He's
gonna be Defensive player, of the year material but it
just feels like there's maybe a, little Bit more there
and i'm so fascinated to see how he's developed and.
WHAT he turns into i still fascinated is. The word

(01:41:34):
by him i'm not Gonna. Call him baby jokic maybe
he's more what would be The. Word like fetus jokic
so he hasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:41:41):
Really, Been, born.

Speaker 4 (01:41:42):
Yet okay okay we're we're entering that stage of the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
Where, we're, Just Idiots.

Speaker 2 (01:41:49):
Okay great caleb love or That's a totally valid he's he.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
Hasn't come out Yet he'll be baby jokic by his.

Speaker 2 (01:41:55):
Sophomore Or third season Caleb love coming for me Came
out of where caleb of not somebody KNEW a ton
about i just really the real takeaway from his season
Is he had the.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
Warriors broadcast in, Shambles, the other night.

Speaker 3 (01:42:08):
YEAH you'd told me i haven't heard that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
Because he was just he, was knocking down threes, and,
they were basically well you're not gonna win this game
when this guy. Is shooting like that and to some
extent that's kind of true because he's not shot. The,
ball exceptionally well overall his shot making is all over
the place and it needs to even out just because
he's not the best, finisher at THE basket and so
i think he. NEEDS that perimeter game I will say

(01:42:33):
what i like about Him is he will he's looking
to pass on THE move more than, i expected. From
him just effort going back through his scouting reports and.

Speaker 1 (01:42:42):
Then the movement, away from.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
The ball just everything like my very few priors of
him and then looking back at some of the stuff
that was written, about him pre draft felt like he
was going to be someone who maybe needed the ball,
athletically to make plays and he hasn't necessarily. Needed to
do that so to just be Able to get some
caleb ve minutes going early on in the season and

(01:43:04):
to just, have that game again he he, won you
the game or was one of your two or three
primary reasons That you beat the warriors and put. THEIR
broadcast in shambles i would call THAT eleven of. Ten,
a plus, stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:43:17):
Yes so overall not, a great efficiency player not, at
the collegia LEVEL not. At the nba level i'm curious
as to what his, totally, total upside is like, what
his ceiling is what kind of role he CAN have.
At the nba level is he going to be someone
who can settle into. A more streamlined role you, Were,

(01:43:40):
talking about this oh we were talking about this.

Speaker 3 (01:43:42):
Earlier with another player who?

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
The? HELL was that like I Think? Was, it, A's
bailey yeah yeah like.

Speaker 4 (01:43:48):
Just getting into more of a limited role where you
can be a star within this small. FRACTION of the
offense i think that has to. Be THE way forward
and i just don't know if he's the three point shot.
OVER it's something else i do think he offers you.
SOMETHING on the class i do think he gives. You
some all roundness he's Done that at the. Gleacha level

(01:44:08):
as well so it's just a matter of finding out
what can he do THAT'S sustainable, at the nba level
because like, coming in, and scoring you know twenty Six
points against the warriors and being allowed fourteen three point
shots probably not sustainable in the. LONG term for him

(01:44:28):
i don't think that's a, role he's gonna get especially. Playing, forty,
seven minutes so like what is? HIS path towards relevance.

Speaker 2 (01:44:38):
I have no idea and like One of, The bigger
like so portland plays basically faster than. Anybody in the
league he's been radic even in. High, quality transition opportunities
yeah seven. Of NINETEEN in transition, so i don't know
but he'll. ALWAYS have that game i will just say
the comps that came out for him were along The
Lines of a jamal crawford Even And maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:45:00):
A kevin porter junior the game might be a little.

Speaker 2 (01:45:03):
BIT more spot on i just really looked at that,
background info and thought there's this is not someone who
should be even remotely menacing, away From THE ball right
and i think that he's, at least done that or
at least has made an effort to and we'll see.
Where IT pans out but i have if you, Were
To ask me, I'm i'll say this i'm way More
confident in will richard being a staple rotation PLAYER.

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
Long term Than I. Would be caleb love that might
be the best. Way, to frame it yeah See there
any other do you have any?

Speaker 2 (01:45:33):
Honorable MENTIONS or guys and i think the one that
sticks with me is we have not seen a ton.
OF common mole watch i thought that he was gonna
be someone that was gonna get a ton of minute
out Of, the gate for phoenix, and to their credit
they've been pretty feisty. And good and fun, Stat On
that more dylan brooks right now is seventh in self created. Shot,
making efficiency seventh okay that's that's the stat that, just blew,

(01:45:57):
my head all right and, it's it's Obviously sustainable.

Speaker 1 (01:46:00):
Is, what.

Speaker 3 (01:46:00):
I'm getting yeah totally but.

Speaker 2 (01:46:03):
We're as that surprised you at all that he hasn't
gotten or do you think that this is, a matter
of well look, at what they're doing malawatch isn't going
to a line with them Being Scrappy in the western,
Conference AT this STAGE.

Speaker 1 (01:46:14):
And i just i don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
How to square it you you got the tenth You
Got him into kevin durantrady.

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
Was, the tenth pick yeah so you do have some
you have real.

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):
Equity INVESTED in him but i look at how the
rest of, the team is playing the Minutes They've. Used
with ohsu gadaro We've We talked about mark williams. ON
a previous podcast i don't know what, to make of
it BUT at some point i hope he gets more
minutes just so we can kind of see what he looks.

Speaker 4 (01:46:36):
Like at this level this is a team that doesn't
always value draft picks or or. Guys that they draft
Remember When they declined jalen smith's for your option as
well after.

Speaker 3 (01:46:48):
He was Drafted tenth You, and jalen smith man are?

Speaker 1 (01:46:52):
YOU on the payroll.

Speaker 3 (01:46:54):
I wish, to'll be that's fine.

Speaker 4 (01:46:57):
Just call me. Up, I'll do That no but like
i'm just saying that the, King, or The king sorry
the suns have a tendency to not get the best out,
of their draft picks and where they lack foresight is
probably the best. WAY to phrase it i just don't
think regardless of whether they're feist, Or not they are

(01:47:18):
THERE'S just, no way i, can in any way shape
or form justify this, as an, organization like oh yeah
let's get this guy, tenth overall in lottery like he
let's play him under. Five minutes per game it's just
it's so blatantly ridiculous and you can sit, there, and,

(01:47:40):
argue that oh well we're better off. Trying this, And
that all right so When you were beating indiana, by
thirty five points you could only get him six. Minutes,
of playing time really When you're beating the pelicans, by
twenty three points you could only get him four. Minutes
of playing. Time bull absolutely ball. THAT is just again

(01:48:02):
i just Do not trust the suns at this stage
to go out and actually invest in like, legitimate Young
guys because, like ryan don know so last year, they
were older rookies they were a little bit more. Ready
for the fight but when it, comes to younger guys.
They lose their patients this has been a thing. THEY'VE
done for years i need to see. Them.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
Flip that switch malawatch not, playing more is.

Speaker 4 (01:48:26):
Criminal just absolutely, criminal do you think if, you had
to guess do you think that that will change at?

Speaker 1 (01:48:33):
Some point this.

Speaker 2 (01:48:33):
SEASON because it's not i, know, people have mentioned Well If,
they Trade nick richards nick richards isn't, Even, PLAYING really.

Speaker 4 (01:48:42):
Right no i.

Speaker 1 (01:48:43):
Know they're playing centerless but if you, want to play?

Speaker 3 (01:48:45):
Centerless Why go.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
On mark williams, is a? Center, right all right okay
BUT you?

Speaker 4 (01:48:50):
Know, what, I, mean adjacent adjacent okay but LIKE you,
know what i mean they don't really go deep on,
the traditional center stuff which is fair like that is a.
CHOICE as an organization i don't necessarily sit here and
say that. That's a bad idea because you can start
to win. Games of that mentality well then why go

(01:49:11):
out and spend the Tenth overall Pick on malawach. Centric
cowaracter's right there if you want to, go more wing
heavy you're gonna. Taken him in stead. There were so many, Don't,
GET me STARTED dan i just i when he, WAS
picked at tenth i, remember, sitting there going.

Speaker 3 (01:49:29):
Oh what a waste.

Speaker 4 (01:49:32):
That WAS the first thing i thought of when, he
was picked there and so.

Speaker 3 (01:49:36):
FAR it stayed true i.

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
Probably wouldn't go, as far, as to You know criticize the,
suns TO that Extent but i, Am, i've clocked that
oh this is very bizarre to me that he is, not,
playing MORE so yes and i think. IT needs to
change i know that gradual, development is a thing but
at some point you want to find.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
Out WHAT you, have and.

Speaker 2 (01:49:56):
I mean if you don't play Someone look At the. Dice,
and daniels situation yeah barely plays and Doesn't Play enough
in new orleans, vers first Two years gets who lanta,
has his breakout season, all of a sudden he. Has
to be paid like you're you're, talking about an extension
and so you're you need you want to, amass that
sample size. ESPECIALLY in a season i know you don't
control your, own first round pick but. There are no
stakes like we all kind Of knew that the suns have,

(01:50:17):
been friskier than expected but you gotta find a, way
to get him get him, more PT and.

Speaker 4 (01:50:21):
Again like i said a thirty Five, point win against indiana?
Six minutes six minutes can you can you justify that
AS an organization because i don't.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
IF he was active i did not See, the game
against indiana so, if he, WAS out you know i
don't know how you justify not.

Speaker 1 (01:50:37):
Playing, Him, in that.

Speaker 4 (01:50:39):
No no he played, But, six minutes again okay six
minutes in a, thirty five point win and you have
it's he's. A top ten pick you have to. Invest in,
his development it's unseerious. Is what it is and it
wouldn't even shock me if he's traded mid season like
some organizations go, Into, that men sadly okay we. Have

(01:51:01):
a young guy he's not gonna fit something because like we're,
we're frisky this year.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
We're doing pretty well let's see, what we.

Speaker 4 (01:51:07):
Can get and like his salary slot is actually pretty
high because this rookie scale is is? You know up
there let Me just make sure i'm not. Lying to
our listeners, but like six million. That's not a contract you,
you don't get, anything then.

Speaker 3 (01:51:23):
All right you can get Someone there just saying i'm.

Speaker 1 (01:51:28):
Trying to is there i'm trying to think.

Speaker 2 (01:51:30):
IF there's, Anyone Else i mean chris youngblood playing so
much more than.

Speaker 4 (01:51:35):
Now we're down in the slumps. OF the rookie class.
I think we're okay i he.

Speaker 2 (01:51:41):
Has, not PLAYED a ton and i would not expect him.
To Play A ton but brooks barnheiser is not a
is not THE dregs.

Speaker 1 (01:51:48):
Of the na draft that dude is going, to be
a player whether.

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
All, OF a sudden oh i don't Know If we
Need Lou door or, alex Cruiser Moving forward. Because brooks
barnheiser exists just remember that you heard it here first
fair you have anything else or are you ready to
tell our audience where? They can find you and all
the fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:52:04):
Work that you do you Can Find, me At. YAHOO
sports at forbes I also do the nba podcast And,
IF you speak Danish I do. The BUSER beater podcast
and i also CALL Games.

Speaker 3 (01:52:17):
Over at hbo, Max.

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):
Until, next time rate review subscribe high, points on YouTube's
comments go.

Speaker 1 (01:52:24):
And join our discord they'll link to that as a the.

Speaker 2 (01:52:26):
YouTube and podcast description, and finally shout out as, always.

Speaker 1 (01:52:30):
To, the One The old the french, prince himself

Speaker 2 (01:52:34):
Is good fresh

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Rookie Watch 2025/2026, Western Conference - Featuring Dan Favale

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rookie Watch 2025/2026, Western Conference - Featuring Dan Favale