January 17, 2024 • 8 mins
We are learning more and more about the tunnels built by Hamas as the Israeli military explores them.
CBS News Military analyst Dr. Jeff McCausland joins The Armstrong & Getty Show to talk about it.
You can listen to the entire conversation in a new episode of Armstrong & Getty's Extra Large Podcast....
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top
AMAS official to drive his car back and forth inside
Another stretch nearly three football fields long, and was hidden
beneath a hospital under the house of a senior Hamas commander.
The Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a
tunnel approximately seven stories deep. More and more information about
(00:26):
the tunnel complex under Gaza is coming to light as
the Israeli military explorers and documents and ladies journalists to
them as time goes by. It's unbelievable and really illustrates
why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the
Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started. But man,
they had no idea and we had no idea to
(00:47):
discuss that in the state of the Israeli Hamas conflict.
Jeff mccauslin joins us. Jeff is CBS News military consultant. Jeff,
it's always a pleasure. How are you, sir?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
You won't do it very well. Kind of a frigid
morning here, it's about eleven degrees outside.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I don't doubt that. And just as a personal aside,
you made a lovely and lovely offer several months ago
that if I and my bride could make it to
the Gettysburg battlefield, that you'd be happy to do a
tour with us. And I have not forgotten that, and
I hope I can take you up on that someday.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I would cherish that and pre lunch and a beer
to boot. How's that? Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Stop it too good? So let's get back to Gaza.
I'm sure you've seen the accounts of the tunnel complex.
It's mind blowing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is pretty mind blowing. But you know, I have
to challenge that some of you suggested they're at the top.
You know, we had no idea. Well, it's really intelligence.
I think more and more is being described as pretty
at fault in this particular operation, not having obviously situational
awareness of the preparation Bijamas to conduct this attack on
the seventh of October, because they actually had a copy
(01:57):
of the actual plan, but they described it as asked,
didn't think Hamas could pull it off, and in fact
also should have had more I think situational awareness of
what Hamas is doing. I mean, my goodness, it's one
hundred and twenty five square mile all surrounded by Israeli territory,
and you control the airspace. And furthermore, to some degree,
the Israeli took a blind eye to the importation of
(02:19):
an awful lot of construction material provided by Katar and
others here the Gaza Trip over the years. I think
actually because they wanted to use Hamas as sort of
a vehicle in which they could describe to people who said,
you should negotiate with the Palestinians, how came we negotiate
with these people. But while they did all that, they
allowed that importation of construction material to enter the Gaza Shrip,
(02:43):
a lot of which ended up in those tones right.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It is a public works project, though for lack of
a better term, of amazing ambition and complexity. It's estimated
currently that the network of tunnels is between three hundred
and fifty and four hundred and fifty miles, which is
astonishing considering that the territory itself, at its longest point
(03:07):
is only twenty five miles long, and a couple of
IDF officials assays that they're close to fifty seven hundred
separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. Fifty seven hundred.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah. Some people have said this is a more extensive
tunnel complex than the entire London subway system. And keep
in mind, as you say, trying to paint a picture here,
because of the strip is about twice the land area
size to metropolitan Las Vegas, so it's not that big
a place. But this extensive tunnel complex makes for a
(03:39):
tremendous military problem in two ways. One, obviously for the
israelis to get down those tunnels and try to fight
them out and destroy them. Underground, well, you give away
all of the military advantages you have of armor, artillery, aircraft,
and it's based like fighting under water exactly. Some places
you have to use breeding apparatuses, so all those advantages
you have above ground go away. Becomes a much more
(04:00):
equal fight below grounds, and you're going to take an
awful lot of cashers in the Israeli military historically has
been historically adverse. And then second of all, it allows
Kamas frankly, to re infiltrate. They can fall back as
they have from Northern Gaza, the Central Gaza, the southern Gaza.
They can use that tunnel complex to basically reinfiltrate behind
(04:21):
you and come up behind you. And that's why as
you do clearing operations, you literally and I was in Pellujah,
rack a city of two or thousand, which we had
to go through that against insurgence al Kaida groups. You
have to go building the building, room to room, door
to door, closet the closet, basement de basement, addic to addic,
(04:42):
not only looking for fighters, but looking for weapons explosives
that people will leave behind because they know they can
re infiltrate, gather up that weapons and attack you from behind.
So that makes the whole military operation a lot more complex.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And I know in the New York Times coverage of
the recent discoveries rea the tunnels, they mentioned one they
quoted one IDF soldier is saying every single tunnel he's
seen has been booby trapped. Now the IDF in the
Israeli government has said they need to destroy the entire
tunnel complex to have any hope at peace going forward.
(05:16):
Considering that it could be three hundred and fifty to
four hundred and fifty miles of tunnels, some of them
seven stories down underground. That is a year's long effort,
isn't that wouldn't it have to be?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, it's a year's long effort, and you've got to
understand that doing so, you may compromise structures above ground.
What does that do then to the you know, the
structures above ground number one? Number two? What does that do?
One of the real concerns about going after those tunnels.
Some people are said to flood them, for example with
seawater due to the proximity of the coast. But ensuing though,
you may compromise the water supply in the Gaza Strip,
(05:49):
which obviously been as a tremendous problem with a two
point two million Palestinian hitnocent civilians who lived there, and
then last not least as the Bass with Jory. Now
two million of the two point two million population, two
million of them are refugees. They have had to leave
their homes. Estimated eighty to eighty five percent of all
(06:10):
the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed or
damaged and moved south. At the urging of the Israeli
military as this invasion began, well you really can't, the
Israeli military argue, we really can't allow them to go
to their homes, even after we believe we've cleared it
of the fighters, because of two problems. One reinfiltration number
(06:30):
one and number two. As you point out the ongoing
operation to destroy the tunnel complex.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Boy, this is the future of this is hazy. Indeed,
the Israeli military has announced that they're going into the
most hazardous phase of this, which is clearing out the
tunnels and rooting out the hidden fighters and arms and
that sort of thing. So this is so far from
over it seems silly to even talk about it being over. Jeff,
anything else top of mind about the conflict before we
(06:57):
let you go?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, what I'm doing concerned about is still in all
the Israelis have not really talked about what do you
do the day after, even after you think you've destroyed
I think destroying Hamas is a bridge too far, perhaps
destroying its military capabilities. And you know, President or I'm sorry,
Prime Minister Yahoo just yesterday said, you know, the war
will continue until the end, until we achieve our goals
(07:21):
returning to hostage elmiting Hamas and insuring Gaza never again
constitute the threat to Israel. Well, that may sound reasonable,
but as you suggest, that's a monumental task. If you've
got to occupy this particular area of two million people,
we our rough rule of thumb in Iraq and Afghanistan
was five to twenty soldiers per thousand to control the population.
(07:41):
So you're talking forty to fifty thousand israel Israeli soldiers
in a semi permanent status just to occupy this place
long term, and you may end up then if you're
the Israelis looking at the Third Intifada or not. Unlike
the British army which occupied northern Ireland in nineteen sixty
eight and they were there until nineteen ninety three, and
(08:02):
I lived in England during some of the ira bombings.
I remember a scene of Greece often when I asked him,
what are you guys accomplishing? His only reply was, we
have achieved an acceptable level of violence that we're no
longer including only closer to a long term solution than
we were in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
At the same time, it's difficult to come up with
alternatives for the Israelis that make any sense, and so
goes history. Sometimes you have a palliative incredibly unpalatable choices.
Jeff mccauslin's CBS News military consultant, Jeff, Thanks for the enlightenment.
Good to talk to you. Come out to Gaysburg all right,
I can't wait. Thank you very much,
One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top
AMAS official to drive his car back and forth inside
Another stretch nearly three football fields long, and was hidden
beneath a hospital under the house of a senior Hamas commander.
The Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a
tunnel approximately seven stories deep. More and more information about
(00:26):
the tunnel complex under Gaza is coming to light as
the Israeli military explorers and documents and ladies journalists to
them as time goes by. It's unbelievable and really illustrates
why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the
Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started. But man,
they had no idea and we had no idea to
(00:47):
discuss that in the state of the Israeli Hamas conflict.
Jeff mccauslin joins us. Jeff is CBS News military consultant. Jeff,
it's always a pleasure. How are you, sir?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
You won't do it very well. Kind of a frigid
morning here, it's about eleven degrees outside.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I don't doubt that. And just as a personal aside,
you made a lovely and lovely offer several months ago
that if I and my bride could make it to
the Gettysburg battlefield, that you'd be happy to do a
tour with us. And I have not forgotten that, and
I hope I can take you up on that someday.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I would cherish that and pre lunch and a beer
to boot. How's that? Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Stop it too good? So let's get back to Gaza.
I'm sure you've seen the accounts of the tunnel complex.
It's mind blowing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is pretty mind blowing. But you know, I have
to challenge that some of you suggested they're at the top.
You know, we had no idea. Well, it's really intelligence.
I think more and more is being described as pretty
at fault in this particular operation, not having obviously situational
awareness of the preparation Bijamas to conduct this attack on
the seventh of October, because they actually had a copy
(01:57):
of the actual plan, but they described it as asked,
didn't think Hamas could pull it off, and in fact
also should have had more I think situational awareness of
what Hamas is doing. I mean, my goodness, it's one
hundred and twenty five square mile all surrounded by Israeli territory,
and you control the airspace. And furthermore, to some degree,
the Israeli took a blind eye to the importation of
(02:19):
an awful lot of construction material provided by Katar and
others here the Gaza Trip over the years. I think
actually because they wanted to use Hamas as sort of
a vehicle in which they could describe to people who said,
you should negotiate with the Palestinians, how came we negotiate
with these people. But while they did all that, they
allowed that importation of construction material to enter the Gaza Shrip,
(02:43):
a lot of which ended up in those tones right.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It is a public works project, though for lack of
a better term, of amazing ambition and complexity. It's estimated
currently that the network of tunnels is between three hundred
and fifty and four hundred and fifty miles, which is
astonishing considering that the territory itself, at its longest point
(03:07):
is only twenty five miles long, and a couple of
IDF officials assays that they're close to fifty seven hundred
separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. Fifty seven hundred.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah. Some people have said this is a more extensive
tunnel complex than the entire London subway system. And keep
in mind, as you say, trying to paint a picture here,
because of the strip is about twice the land area
size to metropolitan Las Vegas, so it's not that big
a place. But this extensive tunnel complex makes for a
(03:39):
tremendous military problem in two ways. One, obviously for the
israelis to get down those tunnels and try to fight
them out and destroy them. Underground, well, you give away
all of the military advantages you have of armor, artillery, aircraft,
and it's based like fighting under water exactly. Some places
you have to use breeding apparatuses, so all those advantages
you have above ground go away. Becomes a much more
(04:00):
equal fight below grounds, and you're going to take an
awful lot of cashers in the Israeli military historically has
been historically adverse. And then second of all, it allows
Kamas frankly, to re infiltrate. They can fall back as
they have from Northern Gaza, the Central Gaza, the southern Gaza.
They can use that tunnel complex to basically reinfiltrate behind
(04:21):
you and come up behind you. And that's why as
you do clearing operations, you literally and I was in Pellujah,
rack a city of two or thousand, which we had
to go through that against insurgence al Kaida groups. You
have to go building the building, room to room, door
to door, closet the closet, basement de basement, addic to addic,
(04:42):
not only looking for fighters, but looking for weapons explosives
that people will leave behind because they know they can
re infiltrate, gather up that weapons and attack you from behind.
So that makes the whole military operation a lot more complex.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And I know in the New York Times coverage of
the recent discoveries rea the tunnels, they mentioned one they
quoted one IDF soldier is saying every single tunnel he's
seen has been booby trapped. Now the IDF in the
Israeli government has said they need to destroy the entire
tunnel complex to have any hope at peace going forward.
(05:16):
Considering that it could be three hundred and fifty to
four hundred and fifty miles of tunnels, some of them
seven stories down underground. That is a year's long effort,
isn't that wouldn't it have to be?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, it's a year's long effort, and you've got to
understand that doing so, you may compromise structures above ground.
What does that do then to the you know, the
structures above ground number one? Number two? What does that do?
One of the real concerns about going after those tunnels.
Some people are said to flood them, for example with
seawater due to the proximity of the coast. But ensuing though,
you may compromise the water supply in the Gaza Strip,
(05:49):
which obviously been as a tremendous problem with a two
point two million Palestinian hitnocent civilians who lived there, and
then last not least as the Bass with Jory. Now
two million of the two point two million population, two
million of them are refugees. They have had to leave
their homes. Estimated eighty to eighty five percent of all
(06:10):
the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed or
damaged and moved south. At the urging of the Israeli
military as this invasion began, well you really can't, the
Israeli military argue, we really can't allow them to go
to their homes, even after we believe we've cleared it
of the fighters, because of two problems. One reinfiltration number
(06:30):
one and number two. As you point out the ongoing
operation to destroy the tunnel complex.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Boy, this is the future of this is hazy. Indeed,
the Israeli military has announced that they're going into the
most hazardous phase of this, which is clearing out the
tunnels and rooting out the hidden fighters and arms and
that sort of thing. So this is so far from
over it seems silly to even talk about it being over. Jeff,
anything else top of mind about the conflict before we
(06:57):
let you go?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, what I'm doing concerned about is still in all
the Israelis have not really talked about what do you
do the day after, even after you think you've destroyed
I think destroying Hamas is a bridge too far, perhaps
destroying its military capabilities. And you know, President or I'm sorry,
Prime Minister Yahoo just yesterday said, you know, the war
will continue until the end, until we achieve our goals
(07:21):
returning to hostage elmiting Hamas and insuring Gaza never again
constitute the threat to Israel. Well, that may sound reasonable,
but as you suggest, that's a monumental task. If you've
got to occupy this particular area of two million people,
we our rough rule of thumb in Iraq and Afghanistan
was five to twenty soldiers per thousand to control the population.
(07:41):
So you're talking forty to fifty thousand israel Israeli soldiers
in a semi permanent status just to occupy this place
long term, and you may end up then if you're
the Israelis looking at the Third Intifada or not. Unlike
the British army which occupied northern Ireland in nineteen sixty
eight and they were there until nineteen ninety three, and
(08:02):
I lived in England during some of the ira bombings.
I remember a scene of Greece often when I asked him,
what are you guys accomplishing? His only reply was, we
have achieved an acceptable level of violence that we're no
longer including only closer to a long term solution than
we were in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
At the same time, it's difficult to come up with
alternatives for the Israelis that make any sense, and so
goes history. Sometimes you have a palliative incredibly unpalatable choices.
Jeff mccauslin's CBS News military consultant, Jeff, Thanks for the enlightenment.
Good to talk to you. Come out to Gaysburg all right,
I can't wait. Thank you very much,
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Joe Getty
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