January 12, 2022 • 14 mins
The once "Golden State", now better known among the A&G faithful as "Calunicornia" is leading the way towards bringing socialized healthcare to everyone (including illegal aliens).
As part of CA's 2022 budget, the state's governor, Gavin "Newsolini" Newsom, proposed a new, tax-payer supported healthcare program, essentially "Medicaid-for-All", which would be available for everybody--regardless of one's immigration status.
So how will this $2.2 billion per year program pencil-out? Craig Gottwals, aka "Craig the Healthcare Guru", answers that question and more
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So back in the day when we first got acquainted
with Craig got Walls, we called him Craig the Obamacare
Lawyer because helps us understand what the legislation actually was
and what it would mean, as opposed to all the
political spin flying around at the time. If you like
your doctor, you can keep your doctor, et cetera. I
think it's worth mentioning that always came to the conclusion
that Obamacare is going to lead to single payer payer
(00:20):
healthcare all across America. It's inevitable. Get ready for it? Well,
and Craig was almost always one percent right. He is
now known as Craig the Healthcare Guru, and he joins
us to discuss cal Unicornia leading the way friends toward
bringing socialized health healthcare to everyone, including illegal alien aliens.
Craig got Walls, Joses, Now, Craig, how are you. I'm well,
(00:42):
how are you, gentlemen? Good? So, unbeknownst to many people,
Gavin Nucelini of cal Unicornia proposed something like universal healthcare
the other day in the budget. What do you actually proposed?
What does it mean? Well, I've got a couple of
things going on at the state level right now, Gavin's
proposal was was kind of a quiet and the easy
one because in the past, in the past two years,
(01:04):
we extended medical which is California's version of Medicaid, and
that that is the that is the government sponsored healthcare,
the taxpayer funded healthcare that is designed to help the
low income. Now, it is worth noting before we go
ahead in when the government passed Medicaid, it was designed
to cover the lowest two percent of income folks in
(01:27):
the United States. As of the latest government research in
California alone, of all children are on medicaid and fifty
percent of all births are now covered by Medicaid. You know,
I'm glad you mentioned that because not to get too
far off track, but that's why you gotta fight things
like build Back Better, all those programs that they're trying
(01:48):
to get started where it'll just help this many people
for this long. These are how these things start and
you go from it's gonna cover two percent to it's
fifty anyway back to you, Craig, that's right. And one
more fun fact on this in nive when the government
passed Medicare and Medicaid, the government actuaries which I heard
earlier or on a podcast yesterday from you all that
(02:10):
that's one of the number one jobs in America. Yeah,
government actuary said, you know what, it's gonna cost twelve
billion in nineteen ninety. So they looked out, they said,
this is this whole thing is gonna cost clubly. Well,
it actually cost a hundred and seven billion, and nineteen
ninety they were only by a factor of nine. So
you know, we whatever we're doing here in California, you
(02:31):
can assume they're going to be off by a factor
of nine as well. So back to what Newsom did
with respect to unlawful residents. Um, we had two years
ago we had made it so that anybody here, whether
they're legal or illegal, can have free government medical through
the age of twenty six. Last year they said, well,
you know, it's not fair to just give it to
(02:51):
the young people. We ought to give it to the
old people too, So last year they made it legal
to give it to anybody over the age of fifty.
And this year, of course, they closed donut Hole because
we don't want to discriminate against the middle aged. And
so now the proposal is everybody who's here illegally can
get free medicaid. For all, perfect example of entitlement creep.
(03:11):
How you know, those just outside the window can reasonably
make the argument, hey, I'm just two years old or
what hell am I getting? That's why entitlements always grow.
Like yeah, it's just like going back to whatever that
book was we've talked about, where it was for Civil
War veterans, then it was civil Civil War veterans wives,
and it was for the children and the wives of
Civil War well, anybody who was alive during the Civil War.
(03:33):
And then pretty soon it's everybody. Um, while up to
over fifty now closed the gap. Everybody incredible, everybody now everybody,
And and that's how you get from two percent of
people are going to be covered by this low income program.
So now half of all births are covered by the
low income program. And everybody listening should know that Craig
(03:53):
absolutely knows what he's saying when he uses the word free.
Um oh yeah, free. You know, Craig, one of the
one of the most interesting and revealing things you've taught
us through the years is that whether Congress or a
state legislature like California, one of the tricks they use
is they say, well, this will be affordable because we
will cut the compensation to doctors by and they'll just
(04:16):
take it so the numbers work. But of course that
never happens because the legislature in question never makes that
cut because no doctor would see any patients. What sort
of high jinks have you seen in the California build
it that make it dishonest? Well, you you absolutely nailed at, Joe.
That's that's exactly what happens is they say we're gonna
trim this, We're gonna trim that, we're gonna cut this
(04:38):
so so far in the California. So the Gavin this
is just the Gavin proposal. This one's the easy one.
This one's gonna pass, the one we're talking about here
where we're going to give free healthcare to all all people,
whether they're here lawfully or not. The other one that
Democrats proposed just recently is an even more aggressive I
would call it beyond Medica to care for all. So
(05:01):
it's confusing when we've got medical that Medicaid, which is
low income Medicare which is for seniors, and at the
federal level they talk about Medicare for all, Medicare for all,
but that's never gonna happen honestly, because Medicare costs something
like fourteen thousand dollars per citizen, whereas Medicaid only costs
something like four thousand dollars per citizen because it reimburses
(05:24):
doctors so low. What what they're doing is they're setting
the targets out at Medicare for All. But ultimately what
they're gonna do is what they've done exactly here with
this illegal alien bill, and that's they're they're going to
slide in Medicaid for all because Medicaid, even though it
would blow up our budget, would blow up our budget
only to the tune of one third of what Medicare
for All would blow up our budget. So what California
(05:46):
has done simultaneously with what Gavin's proposing is in the
legislative level, we're proposing cow Care, which will be one
step beyond Medicare for All, because this will be a
government run agency and a bore of government directors that
will coordinate all of our health care in the state
of California. This is the one that gets rid of
(06:06):
insurance companies and says basically, it's kind of like VA
for California. So UM I believe that this is going
to happen. It's just going to happen. Get used to it,
bend over and take it. So what is what is
the world gonna look like in terms of access to doctors,
number of doctors care, that sort of stuff in your prediction. Yeah,
(06:27):
I wanted to share. I wanted to share a few
just my opinion is I guess useful, right, But I
wanted to share some statistics with you on this. If
you right now are seeking a disability, and you have
a disability and you have to get that disability through
the Social Security Administration at the federal level, your average
right time to get paid is six hundred and thirty
three days. Okay, that's how wealth government handles insurance. Now.
(06:51):
One more, just with respect to healthcare in the VA,
because this California Care thing is gonna look a lot
like the v A if they get it done. In
the v A reported, hey, we've got weight times down
to eight days. Great, because they had so many from
independent audit showed it was twenty seven days. Point being guys,
we're going to see these kinds of weight times or
(07:12):
more whether you're trying to get a claim paid to
see a doctor, to see a specialist right now because
of all the people we've thrown in the Medicaid kids
can't see kids in the Medicaid system, of which half
of them were born into the Medicaid system, can't get
mental health expertise because the reimbursements are too low. A
few mental health providers and we can't we can't do it.
(07:34):
Why that's rough. Do you see any sort of like
I know that they have in Canada and Great Britain
where they have you know, government paid for healthcare where
you have a different sector for people who can afford
it of private healthcare. That that that that pops up
in California and becomes popular with a certain sector. Yes,
(07:54):
depending on how they ultimately craft this legislation. Jack Sometimes
sometimes they talk about making that illegal in the state,
and what happens, You're just going to have all the
high end folks leave the state. But if they make
it legal that you can buy up, of course that'll happen,
and we'll have a bifurcation in California and we'll have
this the haves and the have not. You end up
with more inequality, inequity, whatever you want to call it.
(08:16):
Then and then you have now, right, and I think
you'll see a lot of folks from the middle class
to leave, just out of principle to even you know,
if they're not the rich folks who are being screwed directly,
not just to mention the taxes it's gonna take to
pay for all this. Well, right, But here's a question
for you, Craig. And I asked this partly because I'm
looking an email from a listener whose daughter gets their
(08:36):
insurance through essentially Obamacare, and cannot find a single medical
professional to take her business in the medium sized California
city she lives. She asked to drive an hour away
to a much larger city to even see a doctor.
Will these laws compel force doctors and specialists and nurses
(08:57):
to see people in spite of the paltry compensation rates? Well,
of course these the proposed legislation does not state that.
But you're you're going to have to get there. You're
going to have to get there if you're going to
make it work. And there's under our constitution there's no
way you can compel a doctor to not retire, for example,
(09:20):
So it just won't work. Um, But yes, ultimately that's
where you have to go. They're not. They're not saying
that out loud, of course, and it's I'm constitutional um.
But that's the mess will be in and your your
note with that listener on Obamacare is remember Obamacare still
reimbursing significantly more than medicaid. And where I think all
this is gonna end up is medicaid for all, and
(09:43):
it's going to be that much worse because Medicaid for
all is within the realm of possibility on the budget.
On the budget by the way, right now fo dollars
liability per citizen in the US they like to talk about,
you know, the thirty trillion dollar debt. Fine, but thirty
trillion means nothing to you and me. What means something
to you and me is that each of us oh
four dollars to bring us back to neutral on the
(10:06):
US dead clock. Isn't medicaid the one that they say
you're better off with no health insurance than that. There
have been large university studies in the state of Oregon
that showed that that showed heart health outcomes and cancer
outcomes were actually better if you didn't have that insurance
because you weren't compelled to wait so long for such
poor care. Wow. Now, now you'll hear people debate that point.
(10:32):
Obviously that but but there are studies that show that,
repeated studies that show for certain times of care, you're
better off with no insurance than with Medicaid. Craig got
walls online, the healthcare Guru, um, anything else of note
that we should cover before we let you go? God,
dang it, don't you ever have a good news I
(10:54):
want to explain a piece of that, by the way, folks,
and it's I think it's something Tim Tim the lawyer
Tim Sander first mentioned with you. When you start governmentizing everything,
like you say, oh, there's a program for that, there's
a program for that, you you lose out on charity.
So part of the reason that the expansion of Medicaid
has made outcomes worse for those with Medicaid is that
you see less charity care because hospital systems and doctors
(11:16):
and so forth say, look, we don't need to do
as much charity care because the government's paying for it.
So that's why you end up with those kinds of
situations unintended consequences. Well, and keep in mind that the
result of failure in the private sector is you get fired.
You lose your accounts, etcetera. Which is why a guy
like Craig, for instance, he has to be right. He's
(11:36):
not trying to pitch a political point of view because
he wants to get you to the police. He has
to be right for his clients or he will lose.
In the public sector and government, if you fail, you
get a bigger budget. So you're gonna see cascading failure
in the in the world of medicine, if I worked
with one disability carrier that made you wait six and
thirty three days to get your disability money, I'd be
(11:57):
fired in a second. That carrier to be out of business.
But you know what, that's the standard and our u
US social Security system. Yeah, thanks, complicated and troubling. Yeah,
thanks for crag. Good to talk to you. You're welcome.
Jan's good to hear from you. This is gonna happen
in the state of California, then it's gonna happen nationally.
Everything is dragging it that direction, and you know, and
(12:18):
and people because most people don't understand what it means.
Enough people are in favor of it. It's gonna happen,
and you'll have a you know, the the older generation
will die off, and then you won't have anybody left
who remembers a time when health care was good and
fast and affordable. You've got this story from these folks
(12:40):
living in France and beloved, arm strong and giddy. Listener,
I'm not sure I'll read it to you now because
it's too depressing. Um uh. And and you know, at
the risk of making you, you know, put your head
in the oven, and don't do it, because you can't
get good medical care if you do. Um. You know.
Stephen Bill put it in his fabulous book Bitter Pill
about the state of American medical care. The government is
(13:01):
involved where it should be, and not involved where it
should be, or not involved whar it should. It's non
involver it should be involved, and it is involved where
it shouldn't be involved. And it is so screwed up.
And it has to do with lobbyists and people being
bought off and the rest of it. I'm not sure
there is any fixing it since among the public, the
greatest will for quote unquote reform is for government healthcare,
(13:25):
which will be a nightmare just and and and I
can understand. I mean, I deal with a lot of
prescriptions with my son. I've had my health stuff in
the last couple of years. It's easy to want to
throw up your hands, stake just fine, just have the
government take it over, just so I don't have to
go through this again to try to figure out how
to get my prescription and the the insurance to pay
for it, and now commen, I have to go to
this farmer blah blah blah. But it ain't gonna be better. No,
(13:48):
no that right then? Oh right then, isn't that just dandy?
You know? You can comment on any of these things
in our text line at four nine five k ftc
are at Getty
So back in the day when we first got acquainted
with Craig got Walls, we called him Craig the Obamacare
Lawyer because helps us understand what the legislation actually was
and what it would mean, as opposed to all the
political spin flying around at the time. If you like
your doctor, you can keep your doctor, et cetera. I
think it's worth mentioning that always came to the conclusion
that Obamacare is going to lead to single payer payer
(00:20):
healthcare all across America. It's inevitable. Get ready for it? Well,
and Craig was almost always one percent right. He is
now known as Craig the Healthcare Guru, and he joins
us to discuss cal Unicornia leading the way friends toward
bringing socialized health healthcare to everyone, including illegal alien aliens.
Craig got Walls, Joses, Now, Craig, how are you. I'm well,
(00:42):
how are you, gentlemen? Good? So, unbeknownst to many people,
Gavin Nucelini of cal Unicornia proposed something like universal healthcare
the other day in the budget. What do you actually proposed?
What does it mean? Well, I've got a couple of
things going on at the state level right now, Gavin's
proposal was was kind of a quiet and the easy
one because in the past, in the past two years,
(01:04):
we extended medical which is California's version of Medicaid, and
that that is the that is the government sponsored healthcare,
the taxpayer funded healthcare that is designed to help the
low income. Now, it is worth noting before we go
ahead in when the government passed Medicaid, it was designed
to cover the lowest two percent of income folks in
(01:27):
the United States. As of the latest government research in
California alone, of all children are on medicaid and fifty
percent of all births are now covered by Medicaid. You know,
I'm glad you mentioned that because not to get too
far off track, but that's why you gotta fight things
like build Back Better, all those programs that they're trying
(01:48):
to get started where it'll just help this many people
for this long. These are how these things start and
you go from it's gonna cover two percent to it's
fifty anyway back to you, Craig, that's right. And one
more fun fact on this in nive when the government
passed Medicare and Medicaid, the government actuaries which I heard
earlier or on a podcast yesterday from you all that
(02:10):
that's one of the number one jobs in America. Yeah,
government actuary said, you know what, it's gonna cost twelve
billion in nineteen ninety. So they looked out, they said,
this is this whole thing is gonna cost clubly. Well,
it actually cost a hundred and seven billion, and nineteen
ninety they were only by a factor of nine. So
you know, we whatever we're doing here in California, you
(02:31):
can assume they're going to be off by a factor
of nine as well. So back to what Newsom did
with respect to unlawful residents. Um, we had two years
ago we had made it so that anybody here, whether
they're legal or illegal, can have free government medical through
the age of twenty six. Last year they said, well,
you know, it's not fair to just give it to
(02:51):
the young people. We ought to give it to the
old people too, So last year they made it legal
to give it to anybody over the age of fifty.
And this year, of course, they closed donut Hole because
we don't want to discriminate against the middle aged. And
so now the proposal is everybody who's here illegally can
get free medicaid. For all, perfect example of entitlement creep.
(03:11):
How you know, those just outside the window can reasonably
make the argument, hey, I'm just two years old or
what hell am I getting? That's why entitlements always grow.
Like yeah, it's just like going back to whatever that
book was we've talked about, where it was for Civil
War veterans, then it was civil Civil War veterans wives,
and it was for the children and the wives of
Civil War well, anybody who was alive during the Civil War.
(03:33):
And then pretty soon it's everybody. Um, while up to
over fifty now closed the gap. Everybody incredible, everybody now everybody,
And and that's how you get from two percent of
people are going to be covered by this low income program.
So now half of all births are covered by the
low income program. And everybody listening should know that Craig
(03:53):
absolutely knows what he's saying when he uses the word free.
Um oh yeah, free. You know, Craig, one of the
one of the most interesting and revealing things you've taught
us through the years is that whether Congress or a
state legislature like California, one of the tricks they use
is they say, well, this will be affordable because we
will cut the compensation to doctors by and they'll just
(04:16):
take it so the numbers work. But of course that
never happens because the legislature in question never makes that
cut because no doctor would see any patients. What sort
of high jinks have you seen in the California build
it that make it dishonest? Well, you you absolutely nailed at, Joe.
That's that's exactly what happens is they say we're gonna
trim this, We're gonna trim that, we're gonna cut this
(04:38):
so so far in the California. So the Gavin this
is just the Gavin proposal. This one's the easy one.
This one's gonna pass, the one we're talking about here
where we're going to give free healthcare to all all people,
whether they're here lawfully or not. The other one that
Democrats proposed just recently is an even more aggressive I
would call it beyond Medica to care for all. So
(05:01):
it's confusing when we've got medical that Medicaid, which is
low income Medicare which is for seniors, and at the
federal level they talk about Medicare for all, Medicare for all,
but that's never gonna happen honestly, because Medicare costs something
like fourteen thousand dollars per citizen, whereas Medicaid only costs
something like four thousand dollars per citizen because it reimburses
(05:24):
doctors so low. What what they're doing is they're setting
the targets out at Medicare for All. But ultimately what
they're gonna do is what they've done exactly here with
this illegal alien bill, and that's they're they're going to
slide in Medicaid for all because Medicaid, even though it
would blow up our budget, would blow up our budget
only to the tune of one third of what Medicare
for All would blow up our budget. So what California
(05:46):
has done simultaneously with what Gavin's proposing is in the
legislative level, we're proposing cow Care, which will be one
step beyond Medicare for All, because this will be a
government run agency and a bore of government directors that
will coordinate all of our health care in the state
of California. This is the one that gets rid of
(06:06):
insurance companies and says basically, it's kind of like VA
for California. So UM I believe that this is going
to happen. It's just going to happen. Get used to it,
bend over and take it. So what is what is
the world gonna look like in terms of access to doctors,
number of doctors care, that sort of stuff in your prediction. Yeah,
(06:27):
I wanted to share. I wanted to share a few
just my opinion is I guess useful, right, But I
wanted to share some statistics with you on this. If
you right now are seeking a disability, and you have
a disability and you have to get that disability through
the Social Security Administration at the federal level, your average
right time to get paid is six hundred and thirty
three days. Okay, that's how wealth government handles insurance. Now.
(06:51):
One more, just with respect to healthcare in the VA,
because this California Care thing is gonna look a lot
like the v A if they get it done. In
the v A reported, hey, we've got weight times down
to eight days. Great, because they had so many from
independent audit showed it was twenty seven days. Point being guys,
we're going to see these kinds of weight times or
(07:12):
more whether you're trying to get a claim paid to
see a doctor, to see a specialist right now because
of all the people we've thrown in the Medicaid kids
can't see kids in the Medicaid system, of which half
of them were born into the Medicaid system, can't get
mental health expertise because the reimbursements are too low. A
few mental health providers and we can't we can't do it.
(07:34):
Why that's rough. Do you see any sort of like
I know that they have in Canada and Great Britain
where they have you know, government paid for healthcare where
you have a different sector for people who can afford
it of private healthcare. That that that that pops up
in California and becomes popular with a certain sector. Yes,
(07:54):
depending on how they ultimately craft this legislation. Jack Sometimes
sometimes they talk about making that illegal in the state,
and what happens, You're just going to have all the
high end folks leave the state. But if they make
it legal that you can buy up, of course that'll happen,
and we'll have a bifurcation in California and we'll have
this the haves and the have not. You end up
with more inequality, inequity, whatever you want to call it.
(08:16):
Then and then you have now, right, and I think
you'll see a lot of folks from the middle class
to leave, just out of principle to even you know,
if they're not the rich folks who are being screwed directly,
not just to mention the taxes it's gonna take to
pay for all this. Well, right, But here's a question
for you, Craig. And I asked this partly because I'm
looking an email from a listener whose daughter gets their
(08:36):
insurance through essentially Obamacare, and cannot find a single medical
professional to take her business in the medium sized California
city she lives. She asked to drive an hour away
to a much larger city to even see a doctor.
Will these laws compel force doctors and specialists and nurses
(08:57):
to see people in spite of the paltry compensation rates? Well,
of course these the proposed legislation does not state that.
But you're you're going to have to get there. You're
going to have to get there if you're going to
make it work. And there's under our constitution there's no
way you can compel a doctor to not retire, for example,
(09:20):
So it just won't work. Um, But yes, ultimately that's
where you have to go. They're not. They're not saying
that out loud, of course, and it's I'm constitutional um.
But that's the mess will be in and your your
note with that listener on Obamacare is remember Obamacare still
reimbursing significantly more than medicaid. And where I think all
this is gonna end up is medicaid for all, and
(09:43):
it's going to be that much worse because Medicaid for
all is within the realm of possibility on the budget.
On the budget by the way, right now fo dollars
liability per citizen in the US they like to talk about,
you know, the thirty trillion dollar debt. Fine, but thirty
trillion means nothing to you and me. What means something
to you and me is that each of us oh
four dollars to bring us back to neutral on the
(10:06):
US dead clock. Isn't medicaid the one that they say
you're better off with no health insurance than that. There
have been large university studies in the state of Oregon
that showed that that showed heart health outcomes and cancer
outcomes were actually better if you didn't have that insurance
because you weren't compelled to wait so long for such
poor care. Wow. Now, now you'll hear people debate that point.
(10:32):
Obviously that but but there are studies that show that,
repeated studies that show for certain times of care, you're
better off with no insurance than with Medicaid. Craig got
walls online, the healthcare Guru, um, anything else of note
that we should cover before we let you go? God,
dang it, don't you ever have a good news I
(10:54):
want to explain a piece of that, by the way, folks,
and it's I think it's something Tim Tim the lawyer
Tim Sander first mentioned with you. When you start governmentizing everything,
like you say, oh, there's a program for that, there's
a program for that, you you lose out on charity.
So part of the reason that the expansion of Medicaid
has made outcomes worse for those with Medicaid is that
you see less charity care because hospital systems and doctors
(11:16):
and so forth say, look, we don't need to do
as much charity care because the government's paying for it.
So that's why you end up with those kinds of
situations unintended consequences. Well, and keep in mind that the
result of failure in the private sector is you get fired.
You lose your accounts, etcetera. Which is why a guy
like Craig, for instance, he has to be right. He's
(11:36):
not trying to pitch a political point of view because
he wants to get you to the police. He has
to be right for his clients or he will lose.
In the public sector and government, if you fail, you
get a bigger budget. So you're gonna see cascading failure
in the in the world of medicine, if I worked
with one disability carrier that made you wait six and
thirty three days to get your disability money, I'd be
(11:57):
fired in a second. That carrier to be out of business.
But you know what, that's the standard and our u
US social Security system. Yeah, thanks, complicated and troubling. Yeah,
thanks for crag. Good to talk to you. You're welcome.
Jan's good to hear from you. This is gonna happen
in the state of California, then it's gonna happen nationally.
Everything is dragging it that direction, and you know, and
(12:18):
and people because most people don't understand what it means.
Enough people are in favor of it. It's gonna happen,
and you'll have a you know, the the older generation
will die off, and then you won't have anybody left
who remembers a time when health care was good and
fast and affordable. You've got this story from these folks
(12:40):
living in France and beloved, arm strong and giddy. Listener,
I'm not sure I'll read it to you now because
it's too depressing. Um uh. And and you know, at
the risk of making you, you know, put your head
in the oven, and don't do it, because you can't
get good medical care if you do. Um. You know.
Stephen Bill put it in his fabulous book Bitter Pill
about the state of American medical care. The government is
(13:01):
involved where it should be, and not involved where it
should be, or not involved whar it should. It's non
involver it should be involved, and it is involved where
it shouldn't be involved. And it is so screwed up.
And it has to do with lobbyists and people being
bought off and the rest of it. I'm not sure
there is any fixing it since among the public, the
greatest will for quote unquote reform is for government healthcare,
(13:25):
which will be a nightmare just and and and I
can understand. I mean, I deal with a lot of
prescriptions with my son. I've had my health stuff in
the last couple of years. It's easy to want to
throw up your hands, stake just fine, just have the
government take it over, just so I don't have to
go through this again to try to figure out how
to get my prescription and the the insurance to pay
for it, and now commen, I have to go to
this farmer blah blah blah. But it ain't gonna be better. No,
(13:48):
no that right then? Oh right then, isn't that just dandy?
You know? You can comment on any of these things
in our text line at four nine five k ftc
are at Getty
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Joe Getty
Jack Armstrong
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