Relationship Expert Thais Gibson: Do You Keep Attracting The Same Emotionally Unavailable Partner? (Use THIS Attachment Reset To Break The Cycle And Choose Better Partners)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
That's honestly what our relationship baggage is. And those are
all things that interfere the most in our relationships. Oh
I felt abandoned as a child, Okay, I project that
as an adult. Oh I felt now good enough as
a child. That's what I bring into my relationships as
an adult. But those are solvable problems.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose today. My guest
is Tyy Gibson, the founder of the Personal Development School
and the creator of the New Attachment Theory Integrated Attachment Theory.
Being a leading expert in the space, she helps people
understand their relationship patterns. He'll call wounds and build secure,
lasting love. In Tys's book, The New Attachment Theory, heal

(00:38):
every relationship by rewiring your brain and nervous system. She
shares practical tools to change the patterns that shape how
we connect. Tedys Gibson, welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me. You're lovely and
I'm just I'm really excited to chat with you.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm so grateful to have you here. Today's I feel
like the world got addicted to attachment styles and got
fascinated with the languaguage, and I think what so often
happens is we find language to support how we feel,
how we think. But then you're encouraging us with the
new attachment theory to actually encourage us to heal, to transform,

(01:13):
to grow. And I feel this is a conversation that
every single person needs to hear because whether it's their
love life, whether it's their workplace, whether it's their personal
image of who they are, this conversation will make a
difference in their life. Could you start by telling me
if someone listens to our conversation today, what will change
for them?

Speaker 1 (01:32):
I think the biggest thing, And to your point, like,
I love that everybody. I've been studying this work for
a long time and in this field for a long time,
and when attachment style started becoming more mainstream, I was
so excited. And then over time I started thinking, like, wait,
it's almost becoming to the point where people are just
identifying with it almost as a label, going oh, I
just am this attachment style, rather than being in a
position of going wait, I have to heal this, Like,

(01:54):
let me understand this. This temporary label gives me contacts
into the things within me that may need a lot,
little bit more love or healing or support. But the
actual work is being able to say, Okay, here are
my patterns, where do they come from, and then actually
rewiring them at the subconscious level. And that's what I
definitely hope the key takeaway is for today.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
If someone has no idea what attachment styles are and
this is their first time even hearing that term, how
would you break you down for them and define it
for them?

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah. So the first thing is everybody has an attachment
style and there are four of them, and this is
one of the biggest studied bodies of work. Originally, and
it originally came from John Bowlby and Mary Answorth of
Cambridge University and they said, hey, there are four attachment styles.
The first one is securely attached style. So they represent
about fifty percent of the population data shows us. I
always have a hard time with that. I'm like, wait,

(02:40):
it seems like it may not be quite so high.
But basically, they have securely attached individuals are people who
grew up in childhood with what we call a lot
of approach oriented behaviors from their parents. And it sounds
like such a small thing, but it goes such a
long way. So approach oriented behaviors really means that when
a child is young, if they cry or they get distressed,
the parent is a tuned They're very present and they

(03:01):
notice it and they approach the child to be like,
what's wrong, and they attempt to sue them and make
the child feel better. And what that conditions a child
to believe at a very young age is my emotions
are worthy of being seen and heard. It's safe to
rely on other people. I can trust that people are
going to be there for me, and also I can
communicate and almost most importantly, I am worthy of love
as I am on my good days, on my bad days,

(03:23):
and my good moments and in my hard moments. And
so there's a lot of really healthy condition that that
child adopts. And so of course that's the type of
patterning they bring into their relationships as adults. And what's
really interesting to me is it securely attached people, they
report not just having the longest lasting relationships, but they
report the most satisfaction in their relationships. And that's a
very meaningful thing. And I'm just a big believer in relationships.

(03:44):
I love people, I care about people, and I really
think that relationships determine the quality of our life in
so many ways, and so that's very meaningful in terms of,
you know, the stats on that. And then we have
three insecure attachment styles. This makes up the other fifty
percent or so of the population.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
I call many fifty percent of people are secure. That's
that's huge.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
That's what I think all the time.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
I feel like, oh, my girlfriends are struggling to find
that that kind of person, Like all my friends who
are dating, all my friends are dating, are definitely struggling
to find that fifty percent.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I always think that myself, and to be honest, first
of all, it's conditioning, and we'll get into a lot
of this, I'm sure, but condition changes. So somebody could
be security young age when a lot of these experiments
are originally done, and then they can go through relationship
struggles and become insecure later. And secondly, I'm always like, oh,
maybe it's my sample size of people, you know, because
I always see people wore insecurely attached become secure, So going, okay,
maybe that's why. But securely attached people often end up

(04:33):
in relationships pretty early with other securely attached people, and
we can get into why that happens at a subconscious level,
because you usually pair up with people of a specific
attachment cell for specific reasons. But to your point, I
wonder the same thing. I'm like, come on this out.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, But the other fifty percent of the insecure attachment is.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Exactly So then we have three and I like to
think of the other three as being along a continuum
in a way. So one end of the continuum of
the anxious attachment style anxiously attached individuals. They grow up
with either real or perceived abandonment. Real abandonment is the obvious.
You know, a parent passes away at a young age
god forbid, or a parent is you know, they leave
at a young age for a child, and all of

(05:10):
a sudden, that child grows up feeling like, oh my gosh,
am I going to be left or abandoned again. Perceived
abandonment is really interesting because the neuroscience of trauma tells
us that small tea trauma repeatedly enough over time has
a quite similar impact to a singular big tea trauma.
So perceived abandonment consistently in a child's upbringing cause them
to have real, real abandonment wounds as an adult, similar

(05:31):
to if there was a real abandonment that took place,
and perceived abandonment is things like you have very loving parents,
but they're really busy. They're always working, they're always traveling
for work. And so children grow up in this environment
going Okay, love is here and then love is taken
away and love is here and it's taken away, and
that inconsistency there causes this child to really brace and
deeply fear love being taken away. And so as adults,

(05:53):
these individuals they adapt in their life to be like,
let me really be charming and charismatic and well legged,
so I win people low and they end up having
superpowers in that way in many forms, but also anxiously
attach adults. They people please so much to the point
where they can burn themselves out, or they people please
to the point of self silencing, and they're big wounds.
So we took this original body of attachment theory and

(06:17):
they know it, said here're your for attachment cells. Good luck,
and it was sort of like, wait, but you can
recondition pretty much anything, like you can rewire these things.
And I originally started in this work for that reason.
And so what we found is that anxious attachment cells
They have big core wounds, specifically around the fear of abandonment,
the fear of being alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough.

(06:39):
These are like these huge wounds and triggers in their relationships,
and they need very specific things in relationships. They need
more validation, approval. They really like certainty if somebody cancels
plans with them, they really want to know, Okay, you're
canceling plans, but tell me what I'm going to see
you next, and then they can sort of rest and
feel comfortable and safe. And so they end up in
situations where they sometimes struggle with their boundaries. Growing up,

(07:00):
they often end up in situations as well where because
they're so busy making sure that everybody else is good,
they kind of forget about themselves and they put themselves
on the back burner. So anxious attachment sells. As adults,
they often also were very much invested in and attracted
to emotionally unavailable people, and that becomes really problematic.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
It's different way.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, So they become attracted to emotionally unavailable people because
and I guess maybe I'll give a little bit more
of a backstory to this, you know, for me, I
originally got into this work because I, you know, had
a turbulent childhood and actually got addicted to pain killers
after a knee surgery at fifteen, and I you know,
really struggled with about a six year daily use of

(07:42):
opioids and tried in patient rehab and out patient rehab
and had all of these these things come up. And
what was really interesting is I felt like life was
really hard, and I felt like relationships were really hard
at that point, and I tried a lot of things
that weren't really working. And I was in school for
psychology and like maybe all the outside my life looked
like you're doing well, You're you're okay, but on the inside,

(08:04):
I was like a mass, like I was really hurting.
And I was in a psych class and I was
seriously thinking, like I think I need to leave school,
like I don't think I can take this handless. And
somebody said to me in a class they were like
I wasn't even the professor as a student, and he said, oh,
your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind.
And for me that was like so powerful because I

(08:24):
was sitting there going, oh, so you're telling me that,
Like all the times they say I'm going to get clean,
I'm going to change my life. I'm gonna, you know,
stop all these these really painful things that I'm doing.
I'm going to delete people's numbers from my phone. I'm
going to change, and then I don't. It's not that
I'm weak or powerless or not capable. It's that, like,
this is actually what's going on, it's my subconscious mind.

(08:44):
So I originally started this work by getting sober and
then being obsessed with learning about the subconscious mind and
the ego and how all this works from sort of
this like spiritual perspective to how do we sort of
transcend those patterns in those conditions. So I was originally
working for the first few years of my actice not
with attachment cells, but actually with people in their core wounds.
So like, what are these big triggers that we carry

(09:06):
from our past into our present and you know, how
is this showing up in our life? And so what
was really interesting about that is I was working with
people on rewiring their triggers, learning their own needs and
how to meet them in healthy ways, learning to regulate
their nervous system, learning to communicate and set boundaries. And
then I came to attachment cells actually because I met
my now husband and we both had our own little

(09:27):
things we hadn't worked out in relationships yet, and I
started revisiting attachment theory, which I had learned at a
very high level in university, and I was like, wait, Like,
first of all, if I know somebody's attachment cell, I
now know exactly what their core wounds are going to be,
exactly what their needs are going to be, exactly what
these emotional patterns are going to be in relationships, and
what their nervous system is going to be functioning like.

(09:49):
And I know what types of boundary issues they're going
to have and how they tend to communicate in relationships.
And it was so interesting because like original attachment theory
didn't cover any of that. It was more about like
temperament and some of your behaviors. And so I was like, oh,
my gosh, tell me somebody's attachment cell and I can
help them rewire all these different patterns and themes. And
so what was really exciting to me is like attachment
styles became mainstream, but then it was like, Okay, here's

(10:11):
your attachment cell. And that's when people start to identify
instead of like, hey, let me do that underlying work.
So going back to detoured there, but going back to this,
that's the anxious attachment cell in the nutshells, Like, those
are their themes and their patterns. They fear, like the abandonment,
feeling not good enough, feeling excluded, dislike rejected. Those are
those big triggers that they're bringing from their past because

(10:32):
their subconscious mind was imprinted with that, and then we
always project that into the present. And I often give
people this analogy of like a bear in the woods.
If you go into the woods tomorrow and you see
a bear and you run from it and you're safe,
thank goodness. But then the very next day you go
back into the woods, Well, what does your mind do.
You're like bracing for the bear. You're like the bear

(10:52):
is coming. The trees blow in the wind, and you're like,
oh my god, the bear. And so what's really interesting
is that we all do that, right, we all have.
Oh I felt abandoned as a child, Okay, I project
that as an adult. Oh I felt not good enough
as a child. That's what I bring into my relationships
as an adult. And that's honestly what our relationship baggage is,
and those are all things that interfere the most in
our relationships, but those are solvable problems. So that's sort
of the anxious attachment s all And do you want

(11:14):
me to go into the other two?

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yes, exact, Okay, so we have.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Our secure we have are anxious. At the other end
of the continuums are dismissive avoidant, So the dismissive avoidant
attachment style. They grow up with their overarching theme being
childhood emotional neglect. And sometimes you hear that and you
kind of imagine that, Okay, this person is going through
their childhood and you know they have this really intense
dynamic where they're alone at three years old and they're

(11:39):
trying to find food. Like of course it can be
these really extreme scenarios, but most often childhood emotional neglect
is very much that you have these kids who food's
on the table, so there's structure and order, they're at
school on time, but their parents are not emotionally available
and not attuned. And it's usually not the inconsistency like
once attuned and one's not. It's usually both are not
really attuned, and they're much more uninvolved, and because children

(12:01):
are literally wired for attunement, they are wired for connection.
We need as children to feel safe and to feel
seen and to feel special. Children come into this environment
and they're like, Okay, well, I guess this part of
me that needs this is defective and wrong. And so
what they end up doing to adapt to an environment
like that is repressing their attachment needs and minimizing their
need for emotional connection. And so they feel better and

(12:23):
like they have a sense of control when they're able
to do that. But then as adults that really causes
destruction to their relationships because they've learned, Okay, this part
of me, my emotional, vulnerable self, is defective or shameful.
If I express it too much, I'll be weak. These
are their big triggers. They end up feeling very afraid
of relying on other people and being helpless or trapped
in a situation or engulfed, and they very much internalize

(12:46):
a lot of shame from childhood because as a child,
if you yearn for connection and it keeps getting rejected
and nobody's paying attention, well, then of course as an
adult you're like, oh, deep down, if people really see me,
they're going to reject me like that too, and it
must be shameful, like something deep down must be defective
or broken within me. And so it's so interesting because
they're very stoic. Dismissable winds are very stoic. You often
don't see it, but that tends to be what they

(13:09):
bring into their relationships. Those are their biggest core triggers
and fears from this new attachment theory perspective. And so
then we have these adults who go into their relationships
and there are the types of individuals as adults who
are like, oh, they're great at the beginning when everything's
easy and light, and then after you date them for
four or five six months, when things get a little
more real and serious, they jet or they pull away,

(13:29):
or they retreat, and then they end up in situations where,
you know, even if they make it through that period
of time and keep dating somebody and keep investing, they
really retreat emotionally and they shut down. And so then
you have these individuals as adults who are like, Okay,
you know, I feel like I'm trying to connect with
you and my partner's not really available or present, and
they really cope by trying to always minimize their attachment

(13:52):
needs and create space, and so they become quite distant
in relationships. And then the very last one is the
fearful avoidant attachment style. Fearful avoidance are basically characterized by
more big T trauma growing up, some more emotional chaos.
You know, it can be anything from like having a
parent with narcissistic personality disorder to having a parent who
is an alcoholic or parents an active addiction, are really
intense divorce growing up. You have more extreme kind of

(14:15):
scenarios that that children are exposed to, but they're wiring
is such that. Well, an anxious attachment style is like
they always want more closeness than to win people over,
and avoidance always want more space and to keep distance.
Fearful avoidance learn that love is both a really good
thing and a really hard thing. Interesting, so they grow
up essentially going, well, love is a good thing because

(14:36):
let's say, for example, that mom is an alcoholic. Well,
maybe one day mom comes home and she's had a
few drinks, but she's in a good mood and she's
loving and she embraces you, and you're like, oh, love
is safe, love is good. I want more of this
and then other days, maybe mom's an alcoholic and she's
drinking more heavily, and now she's angry drunk, and she's
cruel and she's mean and she's unpredictable. And a child
is like, well, love is a really good thing, but

(14:57):
it can also really hurt me. It will be really
harsh and critical and cruel sometimes to me, And so
they end up having very competing associations about the same thing.
They're like, love is both really good and really bad.
And then as adults what ends up happening is they're
the very hot and cold partner. A lot of their
core wounds from their childhood. Their version of the bear
in the woods is they fear abandonment because they feel
that abandonment when that love isn't there. They fear being

(15:20):
trapped and helpless if they rely on people, because they've
had times where they rely on somebody who's really unpredictable
and scary, and they have a huge core wound around
feeling betrayed. That's the biggest wound we found from the
new attachment theory perspective, is like always waiting for the
other shoe to drop, always waiting to be on high alert,
like is somebody gonna hurt me. And what happens to
fearful avoidance is they get into relationships and love feels

(15:42):
like a very bittersweet experience. And I'll speak for myself
because I was a fearful avoidant, and I remember before
doing a lot of deep in our work, my early
serious relationships when I was much younger, feeling like I
would fall in love and feeling like I loved the
feeling of being in love and connecting and really wanted
that depth and connection. But it was also very bittersweet

(16:02):
because the more I loved, the more I was like, Oh,
you're for sure going to hurt me that much more,
Like this is going to be a really bad ending,
and there was this sort of belief that everything was
going to inevitably be really bad and really painful. So
love feels so good, but it also feels like a
threat and it's scary, and it causes you in a
relationship to be like come get close, coming close, and
somebody get closer, like get back. I changed my mind.

(16:22):
And so you see this, and you see it like clockwork.
I've seen this with tons of thousands of clients I've
worked with the same themes the same patterns. And I
remember having one woman and she said to me, I
could tell by the way my mom got home from work.
I would be upstairs in my room, and I could
tell by the way my mom closed the door on
her way in if I should close my door quickly
or not. And it's like, fearful avoids learned to be

(16:42):
very hyper vigilant. They learned to read between the lines.
They read like every little micro expression and body language
and change in a tone of voice, because that's how
they've learned to attach. So anxious people are like, let me,
let me get close to you, and people please Dismissive
avoidance are like, let me keep space. Fearful avoidance are like,
let me notice little thing about you so I can
predict your future and I can know how to respond.

(17:04):
And it gives them that superpower in a way. But
often then when you have these wounds and then you
jump to conclusions like, oh, something change, something's off, you're
gonna band and or betray me, or you're trying to
control me, and you sort of jump to those conclusions.
It makes for a really turbulent set of relationships and lifestyle.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I think what you just explained I think everyone listening
is like, that's who I am, that's who i've dated,
that's who my parents are, right Like, when you break
you down that way, I feel it gives people so
much clarity to actually recognize all the mistakes they're repeating,
all the things they're carrying. Why we walk into relationships

(17:41):
where we can sense something doesn't quite make sense, or
why we get attracted to familiar patterns that we saw
in our parents. It feels like this can help people
actually give them a map of how to make sense
of their emotions and even the people they meet. What
would you encourage someone to do differently? If someone's listening

(18:02):
right now and they're dating, how can they use what
you've just shared to date differently?

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, so really good question. So you touched on something
earlier and I sidetracked and good to come back to.
But it's actually this, It's that we you were like,
what causes that sort of attraction piece and this place
right into this, which is we are attracted to people.
So your conscious mind is responsible for three to five
percent of all of your beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions,
your actions. Your subconscious and unconscious collectively are ninety five

(18:28):
to ninety seven percent. And so what's really interesting is
consciously our conscious minds, our logical analytical mind, and our
subconsciousness are our habituate itself, our programming or conditioning, and
our conscious mind will say, I want the emotionally available partner,
I want the person who is ready to be and
a related We'll say all the things in the world,
but secure people feel that consciously and subconsciously. Insecure people don't.

(18:51):
Insecurelyttuch people don't really have that same experience. So, for example,
our subconscious mind equates familiarity to safety and thus survival,
and ultimately we're survival wired. And so what ends up
happening is people who are let's say anxiously attached, for example,
they'll often say consciously that they want the emotionally available partner,
but they will feel most attracted to and be most

(19:11):
likely to invest in because your subconscious mind runs the
show people who are most familiar. What is most familiar
to each of us is actually the way we treat ourselves.
And so if you look at the anxious person, how
does the anxious person treat themselves well? Because they're so
externally focused on everybody else's feelings, and needs. They often
dismiss and avoid their own feelings, their needs, their boundaries,

(19:34):
and so what happens as a result of that is
they are very much often attracted to people who will
mirror that back to them. And even if you flip
that around to the dismissive avoidant, dismissive avoidance end up
in situations where they're like preoccupied with their own time
to themselves. They're going, do I have enough time to
myself to regulate? Do I have enough space? And so
what's really interesting is consciously they'll say, oh, I want
somebody who gets my freedom and respects it. But subconsciously

(19:57):
they'll often go and invest in people who are very
preoccupied with them. And so that's why you often pair
up with people of different attachment cells, and that's often
why you see secure people will be with secure people.
And so when it comes to dating, the most important thing,
and I will say this forever and nobody likes to
hear of, but it's the truth, is that the most
important thing you're ever going to do is learn to
have a secure relationship with yourself first. And that's going

(20:17):
to be through rewiring these insecure patterns. And I'm sure
we can get into all the ways, how but rewiring
those insecure patterns. Because you can say that you want
the healthiest relationship, you can have your checklist, you can
know your needs, you can try to ask all the
right questions on the dates and go to the right
places and find the right people. But ultimately you often
will find that you're in relationships with people who might
have all those things on the checklist, and you're like,

(20:39):
I just don't feel trafted to them. Oh this person,
And I've heard this all the time. I actually used
to do this when I was much younger, before doing
the work. I had people who would date them or
start to get to know them, and they were very secure,
and I would be like, this is kind of boring.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
Like.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Where's the roller coaster? Because that's what was most familiar,
And this is like a conversation about with thousands of people.
At this point, we are not going to be attracted
to the right people according to our conscious mind's evaluation
of it until we do that in our work for
us to heal to become secure to self, and then
that will be attracted to and want to invest in
with other people.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
That makes so much sense. It's why making the list
of everything you want in your ideal person doesn't just
make sense because that's a conscious mind. Or this idea
of oh, if you vision them and dream them and
vision board them doesn't make sense because that's your conscious mind.
And while everything meanwhile, everything's happening in your subconscious mind,
which isn't ready, isn't prepared. Is rejecting someone that's actually

(21:33):
good for you is boring and accepting someone who's terrible
for you because it's familiar, and so the chaos and
the ups and downs, and so that may it now
makes sense listening to that why we're attracted to the
people that make us feel insecure or people that are
not emotionally available, because we've had that before, so we

(21:56):
know what behaviors to play into, which is, I'll be hypervigilant,
if I'm a fearful avoidant, I'll be super distant. If
I'm one of you knows, it's fascinating to me that. Yeah,
just listening to that just makes it make sense. And
as you said, the advice you just gave is becoming
secure in your relationship with yourself. You're not just saying, hey,
you have to love yourself first, or you have to

(22:17):
you're saying to actually, you can actually technically develop a
subconscious relationship with yourself that is based on security and safety.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yes, so earlier when I was saying there was the
original attachment theory was like these are the attachment styles,
but kind of just talked about their temperaments and some
of the themes and their childhood and how they behave.
I had already been doing this work with like the
core wounds and the needs and the nervous system frameworks
with people and help people communicate and how they behave,
and I was specifically in the body of work for
the first few years I was working with people, just

(22:47):
helping people like rewire their painful patterns and a lot
of it was from their childhood conditioning. But I hadn't
ever put it into the theme of like attachment styles.
And then when I met my husband and we started
getting more serious, and I was like, ooh, I still
have a little like relationship work to do. I don't
a lot of work to be really peaceful with him myself,
but I had a little relationship work to do with him,
and I kind of felt like he also had some

(23:08):
work to do with me, and I revisited more about
learning about relationships, and the first time I went back
to it was like, oh, attachment cells, and I was like, oh,
my goodness. Once I know somebody's attachments cell, Every attachment
cell has these core wounds and these patterns with their
needs and these patterns with their nervous system communication behaviors.
And so what we ended up creating is this whole
body of work that's you can actually rewire each of

(23:31):
those things at the subconscious level, because your subconscious mind
is literally driving your life. And so it's like all
of the condition that we've picked up from past experiences
in our own personal warehouse, how do we start to
recondition and we really boil it into those five pillars.
So the first pillar and this is like, I love
that you said it's not just about self love, because
sometimes I don't know. Sometimes you hear stuff and people
say just forgive people, and you're like, that would be

(23:52):
nice if I felt like that. How do I emotionally
arrive there and how do I actually feel that deeply?
And so a lot of the work is how do
we actually get to our subconscious mind because that's how
things unfold this way, And same with self love. It's
a subconscious process because if you didn't get love mirror
too in healthy ways growing up, you're going to mirror
that back in the relationship to yourself and as adult,
and then you're going to be attracted to unhealthy forms
of love as an adult with other people. So first

(24:15):
pillar of really healing is to learn to rewire your
core wounds, and we can go through a natural exercise here.
So first step, there's three steps in doing this. Let's
just say, for EA's sake, that the core wound is
not good enough when we talked about each of them
for the different attachment styles earlier, So people can kind
of hold that core wound in their mind that stood
out to them, and you ideally want to work on
one at a time. So not good enough? What is

(24:36):
the opposite? I am good enough. That part's really easy.
The second piece when it comes to actually rewiring these
things is I'm not a big believer in affirmations. The
reason being that affirmations are of the conscious mind. Your
conscious mind speaks language. Okay, your subconscious mind does not
speak language. It doesn't really understand language much at all.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
What does a subconscious mind speak?

Speaker 1 (24:58):
It speaks in emotions and images. So if I say
to you, Okay, whatever you do, Jay, do not think
of a pink elephant. Like you probably flash an image
of a pink elephant even though you heard do not,
your conscious mind herd do not. And then after you
flash the image and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have
thought of the elephant. That's because our subconscious also reacts
a little bit more quickly than our conscious mind in
many ways. So we have to actually use our conscious

(25:20):
mind to rewire our subconscious mind, because we can do that,
but we actually our conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower
our subconscious mind, can only rewire it. Part of why
you hear people be like, oh, I said I was
going to quit eating chocolate for my New Year's resolution,
and then they go back to eating chocolate three days later.
Because the last things are built into your subconscious we
really have a hard time changing behaviors. So first step,
I am not good enough. I am good enough, the

(25:41):
opposite of your core wound. I'll be abandoned, I'm worthy
of connection, I'll be unloved, I'm lovable. Right, so we
pick the opposite step two because we need repetition of
emotions and imagery because repetition fires and wires in neural pathways,
emotions and images do it at the subconscious level. So
you're like, how do we find emotions and images? Well, interestingly,

(26:01):
every memory we ever have is a container of emotions
and imagery.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
So if you say, okay, what was your favorite childhood
memory and you were playing at the beach or the ocean,
and you see the reds bucket and you see the
waves and your family's faces, like you see the images,
and we've all seen when people have an exciting experience
or a happy memory, they smile or they laugh or
their body language changes. And so what we do is
we're going to come up with ten memories to support

(26:27):
the new idea that we're trying to drive to the
subconscious mind. So, for example, I am good enough ten
times I actually felt good enough. And they do not
have to be big. It can be things like I
was a good friend last week, I had our conversation
with my spouse two weeks ago, whatever it is. It
can be small things. But we need to just elictit
a little bit of emotion, that imagery of the memory,

(26:47):
and we need ten of them. Step three, we record
ourselves sing out loud, so ideally we write them down.
We record ourselves singing into our phone, and then our
subconscious mind actually sponges up a lot of information more
effectively when we are in a suggestible state, meaning our
brain is producing more alpha brain waves. And so what
we get people to do is to sit down. They
record themselves saying this out loud. It takes two minutes

(27:10):
to listen back, and your brain produces a lot more
alpha brain waves. After a good meditation, the first hour
that you wake up, before drinking coffee, the last hour
before you go to sleep, after intense exercise, breath work,
these types of things, you're in more alpha brain wave mode,
when your mind is more relaxed, more still. And then
what we're doing is we're listening back to those things
during that time, the voice in your own voice exactly

(27:32):
saying it out loud. You're listening back and you're very
much focusing on the images and the emotion as you
feel back in that suggestible state. A neuroscience search tells
us if we are in a suggestible state, Doing that
for twenty one days builds new neural networks that are
very strong that they are highly likely to stet And
what's really interesting is we surveyed people who did this.

(27:53):
We're like, okay, let's actually track how people are doing this.
People said they stuck to it every day for twenty
one days. We had like tens of sixty thousand people
who we did the survey on. People said they did
not miss a day for twenty one days. Reported a
ninety nine point seven percent score in actually rewiring the wounds.
So it's highly effective, it's very simple, and it's something
like anybody can do right now. And if you really

(28:14):
look like those wounds, those are the things that recavoc
on people's lives in relationships. Those are the really painful
things that Those are a relationship baggage that we're really carrying,
and those are why we keep choosing the wrong scenarios
over and over again or that same unavailable partner. So
really simple starter tool for rewire and that's when I
like to share it to begin with. And it's something
people can just do at home from listening.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, and this is something you help people do in
your school, right this. Yeah, so this is the transition
that you're helping people build these skills and abilities exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
So we really focus on. We do these ninety day
programs that help people go through these five pillars and
rewire each of these pillars at the subconscious level. That's
just the first pillar of core wounds. And I'm happy
to go through like each of the pillars and share
about them. But that's a really good exercise we start
people off because it's high effective, it's super simple. There's
other cool tools that you can use as well, but
it's a really good and to start. As people went
through our programs, people reported a two hundred percent increase

(29:05):
in relationship satisfaction, feeling more connected, more happy, more fulfilled,
fifty percent less conflict because people were more regulated and
have all these triggers coming up, and obviously less fighting
as a result, feeling more connected from that perspective. And
then people who are out of a relationship doing this
work on themselves and just preparing to go into dating
reported three hundred percent more confidence in their dating life

(29:27):
because they felt like they knew what they wanted, but
also they weren't always triggered going into dating and panicking
and having all these things come up, which is really
important if you're going into relationships that way.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, and I assume that unless you've done this work,
even what you want may not be right or good
for you, even consciously or subconsciously right.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
To be honest, like, I don't like to fear monger
people from saying it, but I've just seen a lot
of people over the years who they know you build
a relationship from insecure attachment first, and you go in
and you're in this power struggle stage of your relationship
and you're fighting and you're going back and forth. It's
really difficult, and then people end up sometimes doing the
healing work and being like, my partner's not willing to

(30:06):
do any work with me, or communicate differently or do anything,
and like, maybe I'm in the wrong relationship. So there
is a risk if you're not with the right person
to do that. Now, sometimes people do the work in relationships,
and that's beautiful and it's a really powerful potent place
to be doing the work. But I always tell people too, like,
if that's the case, each person in a relationship is
one hundred percent responsible for their fifty percent of their relationship,

(30:27):
so it can't be one person doing all the emotional
load for both people, and work looks different for different people.
It's not always both people sitting down doing the reprogramming
and doing the work in that way, but one person
has to be willing to practice hashing out conflicts learning.
You know, if one person's following or communication frameworks, the
other person has to be willing to listen and jump
in and move through conflict that way, because otherwise we

(30:48):
don't really get resolution.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
If you could summarize for us the second to the
fifth so that we have a process of what it
looks like to build that relationship with ourselves, because as
you're saying, that's the most important stying point, and I'm
thinking for all of our audience, before we get into
certain relationship dynamics, it might be useful for them to
have one step by step process.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, so the first wound, the first pillar is rewiring
your court wounds. That gives people so much relief, and honestly,
just as somebody who's done a lot of this work
on myself, first, I was my own first guinea pig,
you know, fourteen fifteen years ago before really getting into
working with people. The biggest change I noticed is that
I used to always be in this like internal emotional drama,
like this person is going to abandon me, this person

(31:47):
is going to can I really trust? Is this person
trying to control me? Like all of these my mind
was so busy, and when I really did a lot
of this rewiring out of all those painful patterns, it
felt I had so much space back in my mind,
Like I had space to think of how I wanted
to design my life and create things, and just like
room to be present in things. And that was just
such a beautiful piece. So that's pillar number one, pillar

(32:10):
number two. As people have to learn their own needs
and how to meet them in the relationship to themselves.
We'll get into how to communicate them after, but in
the relationship to self first. And the reason for this
is it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes
from gaber Matte, and he says, trauma are the things
that happened that shouldn't have happened. That's the obvious, like

(32:31):
the abuse things like that in childhood. But trauma's also
the things that happened or that sorry, that didn't happen,
that should have happened. And that's like the neglect, you know,
or that's it. Maybe you didn't feel safe as a child,
or scene or protected or you didn't feel like your
parents were present enough with you growing up. So that's
also trauma because in a perfect world, we actually would
have had our needs met in a healthy and consistent

(32:53):
way where we felt like we could really rely on people.
And so that's our second pillar is I get people
to go in and audit what are your biggest unmet
needs from childhood, and you'll see people. For some people,
it's like I didn't feel like my parents were present
enough with me, or I didn't feel protected, or I
didn't feel like I had that ability to really learn
from a parent or be deeply seen or known or

(33:13):
attuned to. I mean, there's a lot of needs in there,
but we give a big list of needs and it's
okay if these are your deepest on met needs. What's
really interesting is we internalize all of that condition and
so whatever we didn't get met, we're often not meeting.
In the relationship to self. If somebody wasn't present enough
with you growing up, that's actually a huge part of healing.
It's okay, well, I'm probably not very present with myself.
Or if people said I really need validation, I didn't

(33:35):
feel validated growing up. Unfortunately, usually you're playing up that programming,
and you're the one struggling to validate yourself the most,
and you're sort of validating everybody else before you. And
so what's really beautiful is it's deeply healing for people
to go in audit where they're missing these deep needs
and then for twenty one days, through that repetition and
emotion to really fire and wire those nural networks. We

(33:57):
get people to go through here my deepest on met
needs and actual actions and practices to meet them within
relationship to self. And once we do for twenty one days,
very repeatedly, and it elstits this emotional impact and we're
doing it physiologically, so we have that like imagery that
we're reaching our subconscious mind. That becomes our new baseline,
it becomes our new step point, and we just become
good at doing those things. And as an example, as

(34:18):
somebody who did all this work on myself first fourteen
years ago, fifteen years ago, one of the biggest things
I really wanted was emotional depth, Like I always cared
about that with other people and liking to go deep
into things. And I realized, oh my gosh, I'm trying
to and we always do this. We try to resource
from other people the most, the things we struggle to
self source.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yes, yeah, well said yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
We try to resource the most from other people the
things that we struggle to self source the most with itself.
And so what ends up taking place is that we
also put all that pressure on those relationships, you know,
anxious attachmentselves for example, they really struggle to self soothe,
so they're like, my partner always needs to be available
to soothe me, or fearful avoidance end up being like,
I don't know if I can trust people. I feel
like they're going to betray me. So that person better, oh,

(35:00):
always be one hundred percent congruent, they better never tell
a white behind nothing, or or you know, I might
have to leave the relationship, or dismissile avoidance. They end
up in situations where they're going, Okay, well I don't
you know, I don't know that people understand me, and
you know, I really need them to understand me without
me having to communicate, because they really struggle to communicate vulnerablely.
So we all accidentally pressure our external relationships because we

(35:22):
don't how to self source, and so self sourcing is
obviously profoundly healing for our relationships in life, but also
it's profoundly healing in the relationship to self.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
First, where does self sourcing come from? When you've never
had it and never felt it? Like I think people
struggle to like, where do you find it? Because I'll
often talk to my friends about this idea of self validation,
and I'll talk about how self validation is the most
powerful form of validation I've ever given myself, more than

(35:51):
any form of external validation. But often something they come
up against is like where do you even find that?
Where do you discover that? Because if no one's ever
valid if you've never experienced it, where does it appear from?

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Okay, so really beautiful question. So is the analogy I
give to people all the time for this. It's not
the prettiest analogy, but it's the cold hard troup. If
you remember the first time I were started to drive
a car. I remember the first time I tried to
drive a car. Was so sided to drive a car,
and then I got in the highway and I was like,
oh my god, keep the wheel turt you know, keep
between the lines, and look in your re your mirror

(36:25):
and your side mirrors, and put your signal and oh,
like I just felt like, oh my gosh, it's very
mechanical to learn to drive a car, and then you
do it for a while, and then you end up
in a situation where you're, you know, a year later
or in a pretty short time later, you know, thirty
days later, you're listening to a podcast while you're driving,
or listening to your favorite radio station, or putting on music,
or talking on the phone to your front whatever it
might be. And it's because what we're actually doing is

(36:48):
doing something that it first feels mechanical. We're giving to
ourselves what we didn't get, and over time, through repetition
and emotion, it actually seeps into our subconscious mind and
that's when it feels normal and natural. So what we
get people to do is we actually have a list
of every major need that people reported over collecting all
the data, and then we have people we have like
three or four, Hey, you can do these three or
four things that are usually the healthiest, most direct ways

(37:10):
of getting those needs met, and then we get them
to actively practice it across that twenty one day. So,
for example, self validation is usually things like it can
be as small as just writing out three of your
wins each day and just taking the time to really
pause and be like, hey, I did this today. I'm
proud of these things today. Big or small. It can
be like I made it to work early, it can
be anything, but just having that ability to start training
your subconscious mind to practice recognizing those things in your life.

(37:32):
And of course there's a slightly different one for each need,
but when people start giving those needs to themselves. This
sounds very cliche, but I really believe that if we
had attachment wounds growing up, healing really happens when we
become our own parents, and instead of trying to externalize
our parents should have done it for us. Are perfectly
like our parents are human beings too, and so when
we give to ourselves what we felt like we couldn't

(37:53):
access through them, and we do it through that repetition,
that's that second big pillar.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Understood, got it very clear? You know, I'm glad that
you you clarify that piece about validation, and I assume
what I'm hearing from you is it is practice. It
is going to feel a bit awkward and uncomfortable, but
there isn't another magic pill there or any piece of
advice that solves it. It's like we're going to have
to build that muscle over time of learning to validate ourselves,

(38:20):
which we just haven't developed exactly.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Oh, just the last things that you can look in
the seven areas of life. For if some people are
just really stuck, they sit at the sheet and they're like, okay,
three wins, I have no idea. You can look through career, financial, mental, emotional, spiritual,
physical relationships. You can break relationships down into friends, family, romantic,
and sometimes that helps, Like those prompts can get wheels turning,
and it starts as something that you're sitting there doing,

(38:43):
but it becomes something and they usually buys some day
seven or so people are like, oh yeah, this is this.
Oh three, like that took me two seconds. Oh. And
then what's really beautiful is we have this mechanism in
our brain called the reticular activating system, and it's our
filtering system of information. People always talk about this in
the personal for oh, if you see a car and
you're trying to buy a white jeep, you're going to
see a whitejeep everywhere. It is. It's your filtering system

(39:03):
in that way. But it also filters information according to
what we already believe, and so you know, if your
core beliefs are working against you, then that becomes problematic.
But if you rewire them in pillar one, that helps
a lot. But also, according to the information you're really
giving and taking in repeatedly, you start noticing more and more.
It sort of opens up that filtering system to notice

(39:23):
those things. So what's really beautiful is when people start
doing that work, they often end up in a situation
where they're going, oh, yeah, I did have this one. Oh,
and they notice it in real time throughout the day
and they feel it, and so it really gives that
ability to start noticing that in a more natural way
across time.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
And step three, so third pillar is nervous system work.
So we always hear things like people are in sympathetic mode,
you know, fight flight, freezer, fawn mode, or pair sympathetic mode.
It's actually particularly relevant to attachment styles because all three
insecure attachment styles spend far too much time in fight
or flight. Interesting, yes, because if you grow up an

(40:01):
environment where you don't feel fully safe because your needs
are not met consistently enough and a few have more
bears in the woods aka core wounds or triggers. Then
you spend more time on high alert in various ways.
So anxious attachment cells are very alert about when people
are going to abandon them. Dismissed avoids are very much
on high larder. But are they going to feel rejected
and seem like they're defective or shamed? And they do.
They need to create space and not to you know,

(40:22):
not be a burden to anybody. And fearful avoidance are hypervidual.
It's about everything about all of the above, and so
you know what ends up happening is your nervous systems
in overdrive. And a big part of healing is learning
to get back into your body. I've actually found deeply
that each of the three insecure attachment cells struggles at
the beginning to identify their emotions in real time, which

(40:42):
is a form of dissociation. Like people often think of
dissociation as being this really traumatic, catatonic thing, but it's not.
People can spend a lot of time in mild dissociation.
So we do a couple of things. We take people
through a process of retraining their nervous systems to do
things like completion cycle work and a lot of that
sort of polybig theory work to actually practice getting into

(41:03):
parisympathetic nervous system over time, so it becomes your new baseline.
But we also one of my favorite practices, and I
was saying this to you before we record it, is
when I started really diving deep into a lot of
this work. I did thirteen different certifications in everything from
like CB to cogitive behavioral therapy to neurolinguistic programming and
hypnosis and just all this stuff. But I was actually

(41:23):
like really rooted in a lot of studying all different religions.
Like I was really obsessed with spirituality and on sort
of a spiritual journey, and I've always loved where those
two things intersect. And I remember actually reading years ago
one of Eckert Toli's books, and it was all about
the pain body. And at the time, I was reading
these case studies on these individuals and they go into

(41:45):
the researchers were taking individuals and putting them in fMRI scanners,
and they were getting them in these fMRI scanners to
recall triggering experiences where they felt upset, and then they
were watching their brain activity. And what they found is
that participants' brain activity when they would feel triggered would
drain out of the neocortex regions like the prefrontal cortex

(42:06):
region of the brain and into their reptilian brain, and
all this activity would come there. And we've all seen
people in their triggered they become kind of the like reptilian,
animalistic version of themselves. And so all of a sudden,
people would be sitting there in this sort of panicked state,
and what they would find is that people would start
being dysregulated like they would be in sympathetic nervous system

(42:27):
fight or flight. They would see their heart rate increase,
their their you know, hair in the back of their
neck often stand up. And then what they had participants
do is they had them practice just witnessing their emotions
and their body and labeling the sensations, which is a
form of somatic processing. And they had them say, okay,
you know, in this experience, instead of being so stuck

(42:48):
in the story in their mind, they had them go, oh,
I feel you know, anger, and anger feels like heat
across my chest and down my arms. Or I feel
anxiety and that feels like butterflies in my stomach and
a ball in my throat and a clenching in my job,
and when they actually had people go through this, they
found that all this brain activity came back online in
the neocortex regions of the brain. And it was so

(43:10):
interesting because that Kert totally has to sing, oh the
pain body, witness your emotion or you know, being witnessing
consciousness consciousness, And it's so beautiful to see people practice
that because in real time, when they are triggered before,
they're doing a lot of wound rewiring and meeting their needs.
A really powerful practice is to do that form of
somatic processing work, which is, yes, do things to train
your nervousystem through breath work or meditation daily. All of

(43:32):
those things are amazing, but in those moments throughout the
day where you feel those emotions arise, practicing witnessing the sensations,
being with the sensations, noticing what those sensations feel like
in your body, it actually takes the emotional charge down
quite strongly, and it gives people the opportunity to feel
reregulated and back to more of their conscious mindself again.
And so, you know, we get people to practice that

(43:53):
on a regular basis, and it's powerful for emotional regulation.
But my favorite part of it is that it gives
you the gift of self attunement because rather than being
in a position where we feel emotion, let's like hide
it through scrolling on social media or turning on the TV,
or drinking a beer or whatever it might be. It's
actually the practice of learning, in hard moments to come

(44:14):
back and return to being fully present with it oneself.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yes, absolutely, I mean, just listening to you say that,
it's almost like we're getting to a place not only
of self security or self soothing, its self regulation. And
we're gaining the ability to not expect our partner to
regulate our emotions, regulate our nervous system, which is contagious,
and we are going to you know, blend and bond

(44:38):
and energy. But I feel so many of us our
nervous system is completely dependent on everyone else around us,
and therefore we can feel really good when we're with someone,
feel really bad when with someone else, and we have
no control anymore. So today's tell us about pillar four.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
So pellar four. So you actually said this the moment ago,
and I thought this was you were like on the money,
you knew it was coming. So you mentioned regulation. So
people are regulating through other people, and what I actually
found over and over again for people is that people
can't coregulate very effectively in relationships if they have no
ability to self regulate on their own, because it goes
back to that kind of concept where they overpressure the

(45:13):
person to kind of do it for them. And that
may work in specific cases for periods of time, like oh,
you have a friend there and they really help you
and they make you feel better. But like, let's take
an anxious attachment sel somebody who's very anxiously attached, for example,
they would usually end up in these themes or patterns
over time where they would always be relying on their
friends to do that. And then eventually their friends say, well,
they always come to me for stuff. But then they

(45:33):
don't change their patterns or behaviors, and then the friends
are it kind of drifting back or pulling away or
not being as present, and then the anxious person gets
frustrated or stressed, and then the other friend is becoming
more resentful. And it just what may work in the
short term isn't really working in the long term unless
we learn to self regulate. So in those five pillars,

(45:54):
the first three are all about self. They're all about
how do I heal my own internal conditioning, rewire the wounds,
meet my owneede needs, regulate my own nervous system. The
next two are actually about regulating with so with people together.
So the next two pillars are about communication and boundaries.
So what we do for the communication pillar number four
is now that we know our needs, we can communicate

(46:14):
about them. And what often happens is people go through
life and they don't even know what they need in
a relationship, and then we're left saying things like, oh,
you hurt me and you did this. And I've seen
this all the time with communication, even if people are
so well meaning when they say hey, even though they're
trying to be vulnerable and they're saying, hey, you hurt
me last week when XYZ happened, the other partners like, Okay,

(46:34):
I don't want to hurt you, but I don't know
how to solve for it.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yes, yes, And unless.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
We're actually empowered to know what we need, then we
can't say those things properly. So the communication pillar is
about us taking our learning and understanding of self. Now
we know our triggers, we know our needs. Now we
are equipped to do the work with other people and
so what I get people to do and it depends,
like we have a couple of frameworks, but one is
whenever we are in a conflict, like if that'suffre coming

(46:59):
up for us, people feel very resolved in conflict when
they do basically three things. Both parties have to communicate
what came up for them in the conflict and then
validate each other's emotions. Step one, okay, so validate each
other's emotions. Step two, then we have to say what
we actually need. And step three we have to paint
a picture of what that looks like. Because I ran
far too many times into situations with couples who I

(47:20):
remember working with a couple once years ago, and it
was a husband and a wife and they they had
this conversation, the wife that I need to feel more
supported in this relationship. And I was like a year
into working with couples, and they seem to have a
really constructive conversation about it. And they left, and they
came back the next week and literally before they sat
on the couch, like they didn't even finish sitting down,

(47:42):
and the wife said, my husband didn't even support me
this week. We talked about it and he didn't even try.
And the husband looked shocked and he was like, what
do you mean. I took up the trash, I did
the dishes, I tried to help it around the house.
And she was like, oh, but support for me is
somebody actually like giving me encouragement and we're of affirmation
and telling me like they love me, they appreciate me,

(48:02):
noticing my hard work. That's support. And so we have
to paint the picture of what the need looks like
so it's clear. So for example, let's say two people
are in a conflict, and let's say it's an anxious
and a dismissive avoidant, and the anxious person saying, hey, like,
you're not calling me enough. Often what happens when people
try to communicate is they do what we call negative framing.
So you know, and I always say to people, behind

(48:23):
every criticism is just a need, And we say you
don't care about me, you didn't call me enough, you
didn't make an effort, and all that people here when
that happens is that you're criticizing them, and all people
are going to do a shutdown. Because as a child,
when you were criticized, what happened you then got punished,
So now you're bracing for punishment, not trying to figure
out and decide for what somebody's needs. So we would
get people to say, okay, let's free frame behind that

(48:47):
actual experience. What is the need? Convert your criticism into
a need. And it's like, okay, well, if you said
you didn't call me enough, obviously that the need is
for more consistency in calling or communication. Good paint the picture.
What does that actually look like? Oh, that looks like
a call every evening for fifteen minutes before bad or
once a week, whatever it is. We got to get
really specific because otherwise it gets lost in translation like
ninety percent of the time. So what we do is

(49:08):
we get people to say, hey, this is what came
up for me. So for example, hey, I felt a
little bit hurt this week because I didn't hear from
you as much as I hope to. And can we
do a call every evening before bad for fifteen minutes.
And when they're able to say that, now we actually
have constructive communication. And then we flip it back around
because if there was a conflict, usually there's two sides
and then maybe the person on the other side if

(49:29):
it originally wasn't done. While they say, oh, like, if
somebody was a little bit critical, they might say, okay,
I hear your need. I can see why you felt
like that. So they validate the person's feelings and then
they turn around and they get to say okay, and
you know, for me, I'm a little sensitive if communication
is harsh or a little critical, And not that that
example was harsh, but oftentimes that's how it starts. And
so they might say, you know, can you just be
a little bit more mindful with your delivery next time,

(49:51):
and then I'll be more mindful in terms of communicating
and calling more consistently. I think we can make that work,
and that's how we really resolve. So each person expresses
their feeling and gets it validated, shares their need, paints
a picture for what it looks like, and it's something
you can actually train yourself to do naturally, and we
get people to get into the mindset of feeling need,
feeling need, like, just know your feelings and needs and

(50:11):
if it's top of mind, and if each person feels
like they're able to communicate it that way, that's where
we get real resolution. And then that's where we get
actual breakthroughs. And I truly believe that doing the work
to gather in a relationship to become secure, you have
to become good at having those conversations.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
I feel like a lot of people struggle to do
that for two reasons. One is when they're saying their need,
their need is based on their attachment style, and if
it's one of the anxious attachment styles, often their need
can feel like a burden to the other person because
it's such an intense demand where the other person just goes.

(50:47):
And so a lot of people know that their need
is intense, therefore they won't verbalize it because they actually
think it will push the other person away. So if
they don't say it, it brews up and then one
day it's up and you break up anyway, or they
say it it's a burden to the other person and
the other person goes, well, I can't do that, and

(51:07):
then they walk away. So how do we know our
need is valid or is realistic? And how do we
know if our partner is even should be capable of
doing that need? Because I think a lot of people
will be like, well, my need is every day I
need someone to tell me I'm beautiful and amazing or

(51:28):
every day I need you know, and it's like, well
maybe someone else doesn't have the capacity to do that.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Okay, So I love this question, and this is why
we do ninety day frameworks for people. In the first
thirty days are rewiring your core wounds first, because then
you don't have these things that are causing a lot
of that negative internal dialogue that will then overpressure you
to source from somebody else. So if somebody feels not
good enough, they're going to be like, you better tell
me I'm good enough all day every day. But if
we learn to do the rewiring first is pillar number
one that makes sense. And then pillar number two is

(51:54):
that we learn to self source because now we're feeling
our cup halfway. And what's really powerful. As soon as
we start self sourcing, we we ingrain that in the
first thirty days, Well, now all of a sudden, there's
not this crazy amount of pressure, and now it's really
clear to say this is what.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
So by the time you get to this stage exactly,
quest is actually already more reasonable and thoughtful exactly. But
the problem is if you jump to this stage too quick, yes,
you could end up asking for something you should be
self sourcing exactly, and that that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yeah, and that's where it's really important. I love that
you ask that, because what ends up happening far too often,
and this is a really crazy part of this is
because our subconscious mind wants to maintain its comfort zone
because it equates familiarity to safety and survival. So frequently
people think that they want somebody to give them their
need and that's the solution. And let's take like typical
examples to somebody has they're anxiously attached. They believe they're

(52:43):
not good enough. So now just by that they have
more negative internal dialoguey're criticizing themselves, sort of magnifying their
mistakes and minimizing their wins in their own natural set
point of their conditioning. Then they are often not meeting
their own need to feel you know, gonna for validated
or reassured. So now they have what we what I
call like a hole in your bucket, like you're gonna
go And because the subponscious mind will only receive, well,

(53:07):
what's familiar because it equates it to safety, then you
go and you say, oh, hey, tell me I'm good enough,
tell me all these things. But then it's like there's
a hole in the bucket. It feels really good when
that water is going into the bucket. You get that
initial head of dope. Mean, oh my god, my partners
said I'm good enough, and then it just leaked right out.
And then that's why you see anxious attachments alls needing
so much of that because they first struggle with those

(53:27):
two pillars so profoundly. And that's where we get you know,
confused in relationships because then we're like, you need to
do this, you need to do that. Yeah, and then
when it becomes unreasonable because it's coming from lack and
imbalance first, then it puts too much pressure on relationships
and becomes problematic.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
That completely makes sense now and I and I'm thinking
about a lot of people that I know who sadly
feel a lot of shame and guilt for their needs
from their attachment style. But without doing this work in
this order as the pillars being developed, you'll never actually
request something in a healthy way that natural and you're

(54:02):
scared it will push someone away because it probably will
because it's coming from an anxious attachment style. Yeah, one
hundred percent taste. Please tell us about pillar five.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Okay, so the last pillar is learning healthy boundaries. So
healthy boundaries when people hear them, I think some people think,
especially more anxious attachment styles, think that boundaries mean a separation.
But truly every boundary is adjoining because a boundary is
an authentic expression of your true yeses and your nose,
which is an authentic expression of you as a whole
human being. And so you know, when we look at

(54:32):
boundaries per attachment style, there's unique patterns. This is when
I was like, whoa each attachment style that you have?
These thenes with boundaries, anxious attachment cells are kind of boundaryless,
like if they're really anxiously attached, they struggle with boundaries altogether,
and so they're going to end up people pleasing into oblivion.
They get scared to set boundaries because they believe that
boundaries are going to get them abandoned or disliked or rejected.
Part of also why we do the core wound work

(54:53):
first in that order, And so they end up just
struggling with boundaries at all, dismiss some avoidance they set
too strong a bound They are scared to make compromises
because they equate that to vulnerability. And so they end
up keeping distance and saying, you know, they're the types
it instead of saying, hey, I've had a long week,
it's Friday, I'm tired, instead of going out, can we
just stay in and watch a movie? Instead of setting
small boundaries and requesting those needs within that framework, they'll

(55:16):
instead go canceling, not coming over, sorry, not going to
be there. And it's because they have these huge boundaries
because they don't know how to corregulate and communicate in
that way, and so then we have fearful avoidance and
fear of the wounds are very interesting with their boundaries.
I call it the fearful avoidant boundary cycle where they
are boundaryless at first because they start to people please.
Usually then they get frustrated because they're very generous. They

(55:37):
tend to overgive and kind of under receive, so they set,
you know, no boundaries. They're super generous, and then they're
you know, they eventually are like, oh, I feel taken
advantage up and then they get really triggered because they've
got a lot of big core wounds. And then they
get angry and they set boundaries from anger or frustration
and they say things harshly or critically, and sometimes they're
a little bit you know, too harsh or critical, and
then they feel terribly guilty about it and they go

(55:57):
back to having no boundaries. So they're like no bound budies,
get frustrated, express anger, feel guilty, you go back to
no boundaries, and they kind of just go around in
a loop. And so what we get people to do
is first and it actually has to be done in order.
And I'll speak from personal examples, but this is what
I would see replicated at with like thousands of people.
When I was first doing boundary work, I knew I

(56:18):
had to do boundary work. I was like, I really
struggle with boundaries. So I read all these boundary books
and I learned about boundaries, and I read you know,
publications on boundaries and all these things. And yet I
would get into situations and I would be sitting in
a situation being like, I know this is where I
should set the boundary, but I would clam up and
I wouldn't do it because I didn't realize that I

(56:39):
still had core wounds around my boundaries. So consciously, I'm like,
set a boundary. And too many people intellectualize boundaries as
this concept but you're not actually going to do it
in real time until you first read. Because if your
conscious minds I set the boundary, or so conscious mind says, no,
I'm going to be unsafe. And as a child I
had some kind of heavy handed punishments at times for
setting a boundary or saying no. So my subconscious minds

(57:00):
that boundaries equals unsafety rather than safety and a healthy dynamic.
That's what your brain would think. And so then I
would in real time climb up, not say it, and
then be like walk away, going why didn't I set
the boundary? So what we get people to do is
step one, know your boundaries. We get people to audit
their bundies in the seven areas of life, go through career,
where are you lacking boundaries? Financial area of life, etc.
Through the seven areas. Then we get people to say, Okay,

(57:22):
if I set a boundary, what am I afraid will happen?
Or what do I make it mean? It's a good
way to surface some of your subconscious stuff that may
be they're oh, if I set a boundary, then I'm
going to be abandoned. If I set a boundary, people
are going to reject me or think that I'm a burden,
you know, you can really see what comes up. And
then we get people to rewire using some rewiring techniques
that fear of setting boundaries and then practice doing exposure work,
which means you don't go set your your first boundary

(57:44):
with your boss who you think has narcissistic personality disorder,
because your brain's not going to take that very well.
We set boundaries with, you know, small boundaries with trusted people,
like ask your coworker you love, hey, can you bring
back my stapler when you borrow it? Like the small
things first, so your brain. We try to set one
boundary a day, and it's the repetition and emotion. I've
seen that incrementalism work, and you've rewired the core fear

(58:05):
that was stopping you from sending boundaries in real time.
And what I found in my own life and what
I've seen with thousands of people is that unless you're
actually doing boundary work at the subconscious level, you can
know it, you can intellectualize it, but it's not actually
going to change things.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
That makes so much sense in your program because you
have so many daily tasks. How are people interacting with you,

(58:42):
your team or with these tasks on a daily basis.
How does it work?

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Yeah, So what we do is we get people they
go through ninety days, they do like one pillar at
a time, and we get them to start with a
reprogramming pillar. We actually have you know, people come in
they take their actual program. It's a course for each pillar,
so they can go through take the course, and then
we have two events per day. So I'm in there
three days a week with our students. We have colleagues
in there so that they actually have two events every day,

(59:08):
just at different time zones things like that, so people
can get in there. We have events that help people
actually practice the tools and model out especially for communication
or boundary setting, Like they actually get to practice it,
they get feedback, it's relaid back to them, and then
we teach classes about the tools in more depth. You
ask questions in the chat. Then we have live questions
at the end, so people can really get in there
and like form those skills across time as they go

(59:29):
through each of those pillars.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Yeah, it's a real commitment, yeah, really doing the.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Work absolutely, and we set it up so that it's
really only like two to three minutes a day that
people need. They don't have to come into those events
to get their results, but they have the support there
if they need it. And what's really beautiful too, is
that people end up making all these friends, and they're
like people make friends from all sort of parts of
the world, and they can stay after the events and
chat with each other in the breakout rooms. But we
set it up so that we try to keep it

(59:54):
as simple as possible. Here's your course. The course is
only like two hours long or so they can go.
They can take the course, get the fall up support,
but the course will have Hey, here's your daily exercise
for the next twenty one days. Then you finish that one. Okay,
here's your next daily pillar for twenty one days, and
it takes you know, they're very smile side this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
That's brilliant. It's so well structured. Thank you. Just hearing
about it makes it feel so it feels like such
a seamless process because you're getting to exclusively focus on
one thing at a time, as opposed to like a
million habits that we're all trying to develop exactly tays.
We wanted to ask you about real life scenarios. Okay, well,
because we feel that you know when you look at

(01:00:32):
all of these attachment stars. Really the way we experience
them is in a relationship or when we start dating.
So here are some real life scenarios. One partner is
anxious and the other is avoidant. The anxious partner clings,
the avoidant pulls away. How do they break that cycle
instead of repeating it?

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Okay, so really good question. So first thing is we
do do that work? Like, the actual way is not
going to be to will yourself through it, which unfortunately
is sadly so many people are like, oh, we're just
gonna try to you know, self silence and not say
what we need and then it comes out in a
negative way. So first thing is you do the rewiring work,
then we actually.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Start to work.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Okay, great question. So here's what we do in that case.
So this is actually I would see this sometimes when
working with couples where somebody's like, I'm not going to
be doing the self work. We're not really going to
be moving from that perspective. Well, people tend to think
that because people have different needs, that different needs mean
mutually exclusive needs, okay, which is not the case. So
people think like typical scenario anxious attachment style and exactly

(01:01:32):
that scenario side, what do they want they what's their need?
More time together? What's the dismissible avoidance need more space,
more freedom, more autonomy. So what we do in that
case is just because somebody wants more time, when somebody
wants more space, doesn't mean that that can't work. What
we get people to do is talk it out from
that feeling need framework enough or you have pockets of
time to meet both each other's needs. So he'll probably

(01:01:53):
see this. But whenever we have a trigger, we always
think of the worst case scenario, right, we jump to
the worst case conclusion. So dismissive avoidance when somebody's like,
why I want more time, they're like, you're going to
take over my life, Like they think you, oh, you
want like seven hours every evening together?

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Like well, well, they're thinking, well I just gave you
time this weekend, like we were just hanging out, Like
how much more can I give you?

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Exactly? And then when dismissive woodn't say I need more
space or time to myself, anxious attach themselves are like
you're leaving me, You're abandoning yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
And it's because of me. It's like you want to
get away from me one.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Hundred percent, and instead it's because they struggle to code regulate.
So what we get people to do is the feeling
need framework. They each say what they feel. Hey, this
comes up for me. Then it's a beautiful opportunity to
say I need space because that's how I recharge. I
need time because that's when I feel connected. So now
they actually understand what's going on, and then okay, what
do we need. Paint the picture. And when people paint

(01:02:45):
the picture, they realize it's actually very reasonable from both ends.
Usually an anxious attachment style will say, okay, you know
what can I actually do as a baseline in terms
of how much time I need together? I think two
nights a week would be you know, acceptable for me,
and then maybe a fifteen minute phone call a couple
other nights a week. I could do that. And if I
know that we're going to do that and commit to that,
I can feel good about that and then dismiss some avoidance.

(01:03:06):
They're not going, oh, you want to spend every night
with me all day every day. You know you want
to take up my whole life. They're like, oh, two
evenings a week and then I can do my own
thing on Sunday afternoon. I can do my own thing
on Monday Tuesday evenings, and I have, you know, all
this other time to see friends, whatever it might be. Okay,
that's actually feasible. So what I find is, even if
people don't want to do the work, if they can
communicate very clearly and specifically use that ingredient of painting

(01:03:26):
a picture for what that looks like, we resolve a
lot of those projected fears that cause those miscommunications to
begin with, and now things can really work together.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Do you think it's possible to be in a relationship
with someone who's not willing to have these conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
It's a great question. I'll be really honest. What I
believe is that you know, and I'll see this a lot.
One person can lead the way. Okay, So I see
a lot of time one person starts doing the work,
they learn to communicate, they become really good at it,
and the other person, like, once they see their partner
communicating so healthily and they're regular and they're not so
triggered from their wounds, and they're so clear about their needs,

(01:04:03):
the vast majority of time, it gives the other person
permission to do the same and they follow their lead.
But I will say in roughly ten percent of cases,
somebody's in a position where they're like, I'm not doing
any of this stuff. I don't want to communicate, I
don't want to have these conversations about your needs. I'm sorry,
I'm not going to do that at all. It's usually
from their own woundedness that their unwillingness is there. But
I say to people like, hey, if that's the case,

(01:04:25):
I tell people, set a deadline. Try your living heart out.
Do everything you can in the deadlines. So deadline might
be ninety days, it might be six months. If you're
in a longer term relationship, or if you're in a
marriage with children, it might be a year or a
year and a half. Do everything you can as that
one person in that period of time to show up
the best that you can, you know, without your wounds,
no your needs, regular your nervous system, communicate beautifully, set

(01:04:48):
healthy boundaries. If it doesn't work and the person's literally
unwilling at the end of that period of time, your
only choice if you want to be in a healthy
relationship is probably to walk away. And that's because you're
going to if you're not happy in that situation. You
cannot have one person doing the emotional labor for both people.
And then usually what happens is your position for a
win win because you have healed so much and you're

(01:05:09):
gonna be in a place where you feel stable and
emotionally well enough to walk away from something that may
actually not be a fit for you. And so you're okay,
And you also know I can walk away guilt and
regret free. I tried everything, or your best case scenario
is ninety percent of the time, the other person jumps
on board and the relationship evolves because you led the way.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Yeah, how does the attachment theory explain love bombing?

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Great question. So love bombing I think of existing along
a continuum. Love bombing in extreme cases is usually because
of a narcissistic personality disorder, and that's somebody love bombing
with the premeditated intention to win you over as a
means of control. But what actually happens if we look
way further down the continuum, love bombing can be more

(01:05:52):
from a place. Usually we're going to see anxious or
fearful avoidance do love bombing, and it's because a much
lesser degree and their relationship to it is not because
let me win you over so that then you're addicted
to me and I can control you. It's from a
place of that They usually because of having so many
core wounds and people pleasing behaviors as their adaptation to
those core wounds, they have people on a pedestal, and

(01:06:12):
so you're gonna love bomb somebody that you admire and
you look up to and you want to win over
and people please, and so that's often what will happen
is you get a lot more of those compliments and
trying to win somebody over and charm them and all
those things because of their own insecurity compared to how
high they see other people that they're in relationships with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
If someone comes on quite strongly to you, sometimes it
can be quite infatuating because you're like, wow, I finally
found someone who likes me, who loves me. Who. But
I've noticed as people are getting wiser, and I'm sure
as they do the work, they're like, well, that's a
bit strong. It's too early, Like that feels unnatural for
you to have such intense feelings. We just met two

(01:06:50):
weeks ago. What would you do in that scenario where
you kind of see positives in this person, but their
feelings are too strong and you don't want to get
love bombed, but you still want to continue seeing them.
How would you navigate that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
That's a beautiful question, So a couple of things. The
first answer is that in that early stage, you can
have that conversation. You can say to somebody, Hey, I
really like I really like spending time with you. I'm
super interested in you and getting to know you, and
I feel like we're moving a little bit quickly. Here's
the pace I like to go at. I want to
manage your expectations, and that forces somebody to kind of
check in with themselves and be able to do that work.

(01:07:25):
I also tell people all the time, if you're concerned
a little bit, you think somebody's amazing, they're very charming,
and they're very charismatic, and you're concerned a little bit
that their love bombing and their charisma could be a
sign of a narcissist instead of just an insecure attachment
cell be cause they're vastly different. Then one of the
best ways to just vet them is to set a
boundary with them, because narcissists do not like your boundary

(01:07:46):
whereas insecure attachment cells, they'll like really honor your boundary.
They'll usually be like, oh, I'm so sorry, and they'll
be accountable and apologize and acknowledge, and so that's a
really good way to separate out the two interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
That's so yeah, because I find that that's what I
feel so many of my friend I'm struggling with, where
it's like they do set a boundary, the person won't
respect the boundary, but there's still so many good things
about them. Is that dangerous to keep? Do you have
to tread carefully?

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
It's a great question. And from that particular scenario, if
somebody is not respecting your boundary early on, that's a
big red flag. You know, if somebody doesn't know how
to honor boundaries, then I would say in those types
of cases, that's a vetting situation. Like vetting in a relationship,
when we, forst start dating should be for the first
three four months of a relationship. You should be asking
the hard questions, having those early conversations, talking about your needs.

(01:08:32):
I always say to people when you're when you're going
into dating, know your needs and know your not negotiables,
and then go in and ask one or two really
meaningful questions a date. You don't want the dating situation
to be like a job interview. Here's my seventeen needs.
Are you going to meet them? You know, it needs
to be something where like each date you say you know,
for example, I know for me, you know, I've been
in a marriage, shouldn't been with my husband for eleven

(01:08:53):
years and and but if I were dating again, I
would One of my non negotiables early on would be
you need to be able to have things out, like
we got to talk through things, because it's so important
to prevent any kind of resentment and relationship. So I might,
you know, have the first date, see if there's a connection, chemistry,
have fun, and then by the second date that might
be a question I bring up pretty early, hey, like
how do you handle conflict? And then that way I

(01:09:14):
can see if they say, oh, I would never you know,
I don't like to talk about things. I don't go there.
I don't like conflict. I don't believe in like having conflict.
I would be like, whoa red flag? And so then
we bet And what we want to do is if
we see those things and we're not sure red flags?
If you're interested in somebody. Otherwise, people think red flags
you should bolt No red flags, you should go to
words and figure out because sometimes somebody might accidentally disrespect

(01:09:38):
a boundary that you said, Hey, I want to move slower.
But sometimes that red flag is well, you weren't clear
enough at what slower means to you didn't paint the picture.
So that should be a conversation you move towards, they
really get to the bottom of like kind of a
detective like, hey, I mentioned last week wanting to move slower.
I feel like we still moved at a really quick
pace this week. For me, moving slower looks like seeing
each other a little bit less, you know, so, spending

(01:10:00):
a little more time getting to know each other before
traveling together, whatever it might be. And then we really
get to the bottom of it. And that's part of
the vetting that should be taking place in that early stage.
And then if we see red flags and we see
oh no, no, that's just the red flag, they're going to
keep going without those boundaries. Now we know the answer
and now we're really clear.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, another scenario here. I love these
with you. These are a secure partner, feels steady, but
their anxious partner keeps searching for signs something is wrong.
How can they help without becoming the emotional regulator.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Yeah, really good question. So this happens fairly frequently. But
what's very interesting about this is that I have yet
to see it be any kind of frequent occurrence in
somebody who's deeply anxious and deeply secure stay in a
long term relationship together because their subconscious comfort zones are
going to reject each other. Securely attached people there's too

(01:10:53):
much emotional burden over time and that person's not self
regulating at all, or the needle's not moving, they usually
do because they're really good at being mindful of their
own boundaries. They will pull away from that person or
move in a different direction. Attachment seals are always a continue.
If somebody's a little bit anxious, we'll see some movement there, right.
But if somebody sometimes you hear things like oh, just
dat a secure person, it doesn't usually work out that way.

(01:11:14):
Just like you know, people who are deeply insecure often
are like, where's the spice? Where's the excitement? Is that
this is the stability seems boring? Or they can reject
the secure person as well. So you know, that really
brings back to the work of like, you got to
do the work in healing yourself first if you really
want that to happen. But if that were to be
the case where you have somebody who's a little less
anxious and then somebody who's really secure, then you're going

(01:11:36):
to have the secure person say hey, I need you
to be able to make sure that your self soothing sometimes,
or I need you. In maybe less clinical terms, they
might say something like, hey, you know, I'm going to
be here for you, and I'm going to do my
best to be here for you, and there's going to
be sometimes where I'm suck late at work, I'm going
through my own human things and I need you to
see me too, and I need you to practice being
okay and on your own. And so they'll set those boundaries,

(01:11:58):
they'll communicate their needs, and in doing that it actually
provides this beautiful opportunity for somebody to be like, oh,
maybe I should practice that, maybe I should sort of
train myself to do that, And that's often where we
can see those good outcomes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Yeah. No, it's it's interesting you say that because I
can agree more that one person is usually rises to
be the fixer in the beginning because they feel valuable
through it as well. And then afterwards they start to
feel less and less valuable because their fixing doesn't work
and they feel like all of their efforts are in
vain because naturally that person still needs to learn self

(01:12:32):
regulation and you end up pushing them right one percent.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Okay, So there's some thing we created that we that
I talk about sometimes, and it's the six stages of relationship.
It's based off of some of doctor Susan Johnson's work.
And there's the dating stage, which is usually the first,
like you know, zero to six months you're dating or betting.
Then there's a honeymoon stage, which usually lasts for another
year to year and a half rose color classes. That's
a long time, yeah, And then and then we enter

(01:12:56):
into the power struggle stage. And to your exact point,
and I kind of laugh at this with endearment, it's
not fun when you're going through it. Then people after
the power struggle, there's the rhythm stage. You get into
your rhythm. Then you get into the commitment stage long term,
and then the bliss stage, like things are really good
long term, highly likely to break up in that stage
but what's so interesting is it in the dating stage
of relationships, usually we are very attracted to people who

(01:13:19):
express or repressed traits, so the thing will invest in
longest term or people whom you are back to us
how we treat ourselves. But one of the other things
that does drive attraction early on psychologically is somebody who
expresses your repressed traits. Okay, so if that office is attracted.
So let's say, for example, that you're somebody who struggles
with boundaries. If you meet somebody really assertive, you're gonna
be like wow, like ooh, let me get close to them.

(01:13:41):
Or if you're somebody not a bad thing, or if
you're somebody who's very type A organized, intense, and when
somebody's really easy going, you're gonna be like, oh wow,
like look at them. And so we're very drawn because
the mind likes to attach, and when we attach to something,
we have an allostatic or homeostatic impulse at the subconscious level.
We feel more holes through that person. But what's so

(01:14:03):
crazy is over time we are still going to invest
in the most people who mirror our subconscious comfort zone.
So in the early stages were often attracted and then
in the power struggle stage, it's the very thing that
has one of the greatest likelihoods of driving the relationship apart,
and that looks like this. They were so assertive. I
loved that early on, and now in the power struggle
station you're like, they never compromised. Early on, you're like,

(01:14:24):
oh my god, I love that they go with the flow.
They're so flex the when he's going. And then you're like, hello,
like we have plans, get here on time, and you're
really stressed. And it happens like clockwork in every relationship.
And what I believe to be both the psychological and
even spiritual lesson is to integrate those traits collectively. And
so yeah, So for example, let's say, let's pretend it's

(01:14:45):
me and my husband, and actually we were kind of
like this. I met my husband, my little little boundary
work to do, and he was so good at setting boundaries,
just like so direct, so straight up, so to the point,
and I remember really admiring it. And then sure enough
I knew. We got in the power struggle station and
started to dives was like hello, and so I went
to him and I said hey, And I knew this already.
I was a quick thank goodness, and I knew that

(01:15:06):
I was going to start feeling frustrated unless I took
on some of the trade of assertiveness better and if
he took on some of my flexibility a little bit more.
So I went to him. I had the conversation, said, Hey,
I need you to make compromise with me sometimes, and
this is really important to me, and it's going to
be important for you to be more flexible and more
mindful of me at times as well. And I gave
some examples and sort of painted a picture. And what

(01:15:28):
was really beautiful about that is I knew I had
to communicate my needs more consistently and say my boundaries
and do it better in real time. And I did.
It was profoundly healing for me and helped me in
so many relationships going forward, especially in things like work.
And for him, he became so much more flexible and
I saw it really strengthen his relationships with his friends,
his family members, like it was really beautiful to see
him evolve in that way. And that's everybody. That's if

(01:15:50):
you're the type a person, you got to learn that
easygoingness sometimes and surrender. If you're the easygoing person having
some discipline is really valuable. So I really believe that
relationships are not here for love, although that's a beautiful thing.
They're also here for growth. And a lot of it's
that we're attracted to people that way, because that's are
subconscious mind calling us to take on some of those
things internally, and that's how we become more whole together

(01:16:12):
in that power struggle stage. And now instead of having
these two different people that are attracted, we're now to
whole people collectively, and that strengthens us individually and collectively
long term.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
I couldn't agree more if whenever people ask me and Rady,
it's our tenure, wedding anniversary, this year, congratulation, and when
I think about what's worked, because there've been tough conversations,
there's been growth, there's been both of us taking responsibility
and accountability, and I'm like, the best thing that's happened
is the best parts of us have rubbed off onto

(01:16:42):
the other person and the worst parts haven't. I love
that is the only thing I can come down to.
It's like, so me and Rady similarly ratherly spontaneous. I'm
super hyper focused and I've become more spontaneous and more
casual in our relationship with our timing and things like that,
and she's become more organized in her work and focused

(01:17:04):
and driven in her profession. And then Radi super healthy
and you know, really health conscious and exercise, diet, everything
that's really rubbed off on me. And so she's taught
me that and I'm like, that's what's worked. And it's
but you both got to have the humility to be
able to learn from the other person. And I think
you have to have the humility to not want to

(01:17:24):
teach the other person. So I don't think in what
you said in the way you're talking about these conversations.
I never went up to Radi and said, I think
you need to be more organized, and she never came
up to me and goes, I think you need to
be more healthy. Like if it's almost like the humility
to not teach and the humility to learn. And that's
fascinating because most of us think, oh, yeah, I wish
my partner was a bit more like me, and I'm

(01:17:45):
going to go tell them how they can be like me,
and it's like, oh no, no, no, it's you live
the quality so well that it becomes attractive. Like I know,
RADI like really values going to the gym, really values
eating well. She sees how alert it makes And when
you see see that change in someone, you feel inspired
that I want to do it too, And so it's
so fascinating. How Yeah, I'd say successful relationships are when

(01:18:10):
the good things you both have rob off on each
other and the bad things don't. And that simple principle
allows you to have the humility to learn from your
partner and not have the ego to want to teach them.
And those two things seem to make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
I thought that was so beautiful the way you said that.
I actually really touched my heart. You said the best
things rubbed off on one another, but the harder things didn't,
And like, I just think that's such a beautiful example
of a truly healthy, harmonious relationship. And that's that's that
For people who are like, how do I have the humility?
How do I communicate? That's that feelings need framework when
you communicate, hey I need this, Hey I need a

(01:18:45):
little flexibility sometimes from you, or hey I need you
to sometimes be mindful of me. When you say it
with like this this humbleness, you come to the table
of like I care about you and sometimes I need
to lean on you in this way and vice versa.
That is a big part of what opens those dialogues,
those conversations to be more mindful. And then, of course,
like you said, when somebody's living in their best version
of themselves, they step into that truth and that's inspiring

(01:19:06):
to be around one hundred person.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
Okay, one more scenario before we do a couple of segments.
So this one is one partner is ready to commit,
the other becomes uncertain as things deepen. How do you
tell fear from a real mismatch?

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Beautiful question? So I always find it's going to boil
back down to these same types of themes and pillars.
So first thing is you have to have a real conversation,
like if we sort of have these trajectories that relationships follow.
That I've found, which is that if you don't do
anything really direct, if you don't have a really vulnerable conversation, instead,

(01:19:42):
what happens is one person's like, oh, they don't want
to commit. They make it mean things about themselves, especially
if they have a lot of core wounds, are like
oh am I not good enough? Am I unlovable? Am
I unworthy? And then they project those onto situations or
the person keeps dragging their feet and the other person's
self silences and they just feel resentful in the relationship.
Then that out in different ways and it's more arguments
or disagreements. So the only actual reasonable solution is to

(01:20:05):
truly hash it out. And so we go and we say, hey,
you know, here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for
a commitment. Here's why, and here's like what you know,
paint that picture, what does that timeframe look like, and
be really honest and transparent, And then the other person
has to say what's holding them back? And oftentimes what
I foun because they've done a lot of these specific
conversations with people in relationships, and usually what's actually happening

(01:20:29):
is that that conversation will be the catalyst for some
deeply unresolved needs and relationships. More often than not, the
person who's dragging their feet and commitment the most is
deeply directly running in parallel to the person who's also
not communicating their needs and relationships, and so they're afraid
to commit. And a lot of times people's commitment fears

(01:20:49):
are yes coming from core wounds and being trapped or
helpless or powerless in that pillar. But a lot more
of the time, commitment fear are rooted in somebody not
knowing how to communicate their needs. So they're more scared
to get trapped because they're like, well, what if I
commit to this and then I don't feel fully fulfilled
or have my needs met. But once they learn to
communicate their needs, a lot of those conversations usually end

(01:21:09):
up being things like, Hey, yeah, I guess like one
of the reasons I'm afraid to commit is I'm scared
that I'm going to lose, you know, my time with
my friends sometimes and I need to be able to
have that in the long term and go off and
hang out with the boys sometimes, or go have a
girl's weekend or whatever it might be. And then the
person's like, oh, I can honor that, I can make
that a part of our marriage. I can, you know,
And it's this catalyst to a huge breakthrough, or sometimes

(01:21:31):
it's things like, hey, I guess what's holding me back
is sometimes I feel like I get criticized more than
I feel good about and it makes me want to
pull away, and I'm not sure if I see that
being you know something, I'm really happy in long term
and then the person hears that and they're able to say,
oh my gosh, it's time for me to clean up
the way I communicate, and then there's this breakthrough when
they both feel safer. So I would love to tell people, Hey,

(01:21:53):
there's some manipulative easy fix where you tell them this
thing and you say I'll do if you don't, you know, commit,
I'll leave and give an ultimatum. You're selling yourself short
and the relationship short by not saying, hey, this is
what I'm really looking for. Here's why. Tell me what's
coming up for you or want to understand. And when
we do that and have that same humility to really
go there with an open heart and open mind, usually

(01:22:14):
there's big breakthroughs.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
Yeah, what happens when we've talked a lot about dating,
we've talked about being in a relationship. What happens when

(01:22:37):
you set your boundary, You've done some of the self work,
maybe they have to, and then they decide to leave you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Beautiful question and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
Someone breaks up with you and you've done the work,
you've been trying to figure it out. But the subconscious
and the conditioning was so strong that it was overriding
everything and for both of you, just too difficult. That
person breaks up with you, How does an anxious attachment
style and an avoidant attachment style how can they correctly
deal with the breakup?

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
I love this question too. Okay, So one of my
favorite topics is actually grief, and a breakup is grief,
and when we actually look at grief, I think grief
is one of the most misunderstood things in our society
because we think time heals all wounds, or we think
these things, and honestly, it's just not the case. Wounds

(01:23:24):
can last for a very long time. But when we
go through a breakup, it's grief because what happens when
we get into relationship is the mind attaches to another person,
and when we attach to another person deeply, that's when
our attachment behaviors exhibit themselves the most. But when we attach,
what we're actually attaching to is very much the non physical.

(01:23:44):
So this is kind of a morbid example, but if
somebody passes away, it's not their physical body that you miss.
If their physical body was around in your house or
something like, You're not going to be the way I
feel better it's all the non physical true that we miss,
and so we have to then ask the question, well,
what is the non physical? Well, it really boils down
to a couple of really major things. Number one, the

(01:24:06):
needs somebody met in your life that we were used
to them meeting. Maybe that person made you feel seen
or heard, or loved or validated, and maybe they weren't
even doing a good job because it led to the breakup.
But if they met your need a three out of
ten and you were meeting your need one out of
ten to feel validated, you're going to keep going back
for those breadcrumbs because you're starving. So the first part
is that grief is the detachment we were used to

(01:24:27):
having these needs met in our life. Suddenly the person's gone.
They took our needs with them, and there's a void
left behind. And that void is a big part of
what we experience as grief. Step one. Number two grief,
and this is a very sacred thing, I believe, But
grief is also who we became around that person, the
part of ourselves that we got to express. And I
had times back in my practice when I was running

(01:24:48):
my client practice before our online programs, where I'd work
with people on loss. And I remember one time I
worked with somebody on the loss of a child and
it was a very tragic situation. And her really big
breakthrough that led her to really start healing is she
realized what she was grieving the most. Years later, when
she came to me, she'd been grieving for years and
wasn't really getting anywhere. She realized that what she missed

(01:25:11):
the most was that she felt like she was a
nurturer and a protector and a caretaker and a contributor
and these really beautiful, sacred expressions of herself that she
because she was going through that grief and then hadn't
had another child again, she didn't feel like she had
anywhere to express that or become that. And so you
know what she ultimately did is then started this beautiful
charity that helped kids in a similar situation, and that

(01:25:33):
deeply healed her heart. And so grief is also when
we lose somebody, we lose the aspects of ourselves that
we got to express in their company. And so you know,
those are two big pillars of grief. And then third
is we have all these stories we say it was
all my fault. I'm not good enough, you know, the
backs of a poor wound. So that's a big part
of rewiring it. But what I actually get people to
do if they go through a breakup, and usually when

(01:25:53):
people go through a breakup like that, it's because they
tried to start doing the work when they already had
too many resentments and they were already you know, half
checked out. But if you go through that breakup, one
of the fastest ways to truly heal great from a
breakup is to write out what we're all of those
needs this person met. I know, I have to start
meeting those needs in myself and I have to start
sell or I have to start resourcing them in healthy

(01:26:13):
ways with healthy people in my life. And as we do,
we fill up that void that was left behind from
that person, and it heals our heart. It heals us deeply.
And part of why people say time heals all wounds
is because human beings are naturally adaptable, and in time
they start to learn to resource their needs in other ways.
It's not time doing that, it's our natural adaptiveness that's
doing that for us. But we can fast track that

(01:26:35):
process by being more unconscious and intentional about it. The
secondary part of it is who were you? Who did
you become when you had this loss, And a lot
of times it's these beautiful things like I was a protector,
I was a caretaker, I was a contributor. And when
we look at who we became and we work to
keep expressing those aspects of self, that is deeply healing

(01:26:55):
for us as well. And that's a really good way
to kick start moving through the breakup much more quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
Do you ever truly get over someone?

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
I very much believe that you do, And I think
that there's times where you know people when we look
at grief too, which is really interesting, is one of
the ways that it's actually another step that we have
for how to heal grief. It's funny because actually forgot
about this one. Is sometimes when we feel like we
lost somebody, there's this old saying that there's no such

(01:27:24):
thing as gain or loss, it's only ever changing forms.
And when I think of in more extreme forms of grief,
even like the law, like a death of somebody, oftentimes
yes they're not here in the physical form, but they're here,
and you know, we can meet those needs and we
can become that expression of ourselves. But a lot of
times they're still within you in their conditioning that they

(01:27:46):
imprinted or impressed upon you. In other words, you know,
if it's the loss of a parent, you know, sometimes
there it gets people to sit down around losses like
that and they say, okay, what was your father?

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
My father was a protector. He was strong, he was assertive,
he thought five steps ahead. Where did you become that?
And what's really beautiful is when people sit down and
they do that. They a lot of times you hear
people say things like, oh my god, my father's like
here as a part of me. And so I think
that we can truly move through a point where we
get over the grief in terms of the suffering. And

(01:28:17):
there's this old thing that grief is love with nowhere
to go. And I think that when we don't know
where to put the love because we don't know how
to express that part of ourselves, or we don't know
how to get the needs met, or we don't recognize
that that person they're with us in all of these
non physical ways, then it feels like it's very hard
to get over somebody. But I think when we start
to actually move through those steps in terms of how
we process grief, we kind of feel this connection to

(01:28:39):
somebody in our heart and we get over the deep mourning,
the deep grieving, and sometimes we'll miss the person still,
or sometimes we'll feel that care for people we love
so deeply, but it doesn't have to be this painful
relationship that we have to that person.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
Yeah, should you feel one hundred percent sure about your partner?

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
Oh? Good question. These are good questions. I love these things. Okay,
So the answer is I would say one hundred percent.
It's a little bit of a fallacy. I would say
that we should feel highly certain. But it's almost like
when people say, and I hear this all the time,
are you one hundred percent ready to have kids? You're like,
nobody's ever one hundred percent ready for me? Are you
one hundred percent ready to take that new job, to

(01:29:16):
move across the country to You're never going to feel
one hundred percent ready, But there should be a high
enough degree of certainty where you feel like, hey, this
is me falling my hard or taking that leap of faith,
and that bridge in that leap of faith shouldn't feel
like the bridge is like something you can't surmount or
jump over. It should feel like Okay, I'm going to
take that small leap of faith and there's a smaller
gap there.

Speaker 2 (01:29:35):
That's a good answer. Yeah, it's I agree with you.
I don't think there's one hundred percent surety. If anything,
that surety gets stronger than more time you spend with someone.
And I think that's partly the challenge that a lot
of these things are only tried and tested and proven
over time because there is no substitute for time in
a relationship because people change, people grow, people evolve. You change,

(01:29:56):
you grow, you evolve, And it's it's really crazy to
think when you say on your wedding day, like you
know till death do us apart the idea that you
don't really even know what life's going to look like,
and so there is a big risk in that commitment
because you don't even know the version of the person

(01:30:18):
that you're going to have to be with in like five, ten, fifteen,
twenty years.

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
That used to be my biggest fear in relationships, and
this is something that really is true, like runs deep
to my heart. I always used to be like, how
can you ever know that you trust them?

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:30:34):
You love them?

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
How can you know you won't change? Your mind or
they won't change their mind. And it was always this
big fear. And earlier I mentioned those cycles of relationships dating, honeymoon,
power struggle stage, then we have the rhythm stage, commitment, blissage.
And what I actually found over and over again and
I experienced is so deeply firsthand. And this is actually
something I'd want people so deeply to know and understand,
because I know there's gonna be a lot of people

(01:30:55):
like me who really struggle at points in relationships early on.
And I had only ever done relationships in dating honeymoon,
power struggle, breakup, date again, dating honeymoon, power struggle, breakup.
So you think that relationships are just infatuation or pain.
And what I learned exactly to your point, is that
real love is built in the power struggle stage the most,

(01:31:18):
because we drop the mask we're not in our best behavior,
and you learn to work through things. And the power
struggle is this opportunity. It's this crisis, but it's also
this opportunity to start saying, hey, this is what's come
up for me, this is what I need in these situations,
this is what I'm feeling, Hey, this is sensitive for me.
That's a pain point for me, can you be more mindful?
And I believe that we really move the needle from

(01:31:40):
more conditionally based love to more unconditionally based love through
having those deeper conversations, through doing that work, and then
we deep and it's almost like in the early stages,
you have this really pretty sapling, like this really nice
little tree, but a windstorm can take it out because
it's so fragile. But when we have those meaningful conversations
again and again and we build and we grow, and
then all of a sudden and you know your partners,

(01:32:01):
you know biggest pain points, and you're mindful of them,
and you know when somebody else hit them and you're
there to show up for them and caretake for them
and be sensitive to them and that and they're that
for you too. Now you deepen roots and love in
such a different way where those ideas of like, oh
what if somebody else came along and one of us changed,
you know that it's such a silly thing. And I
could never conceive of that at one point in my

(01:32:24):
life because I had so many wounds around relationships and
so many fears. And it's only through that beauty of
like having those conversations and doing the work and deepening
that connection in such a real way that then like
some silly, frivolous thing, that oh, something attractive could come
along and you could change it. Like it seems so
almost like you know, like silly, like you can laugh
at it after a while. But that's because I think

(01:32:46):
the real work isn't that you're going to be one
hundred percent sure. It's that you build that hundred or
close to one hundred percent certainty through all of those
meaningful conversations that you're building over time. And I really
believe love isn't just given. I think love has really grown,
and I think that's part of what allows us to
foster that with people.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
I agree with you. I was having this conversation with
someone that life would be in one what you just explained.
Life would be somewhat more entertaining if you went from
dating to honeymoon and then broke at the power struggle
and just kept doing that circle again because you keep
getting this honeymoon period. But the honeymoon period requires no growth,

(01:33:22):
and the growth over time is what allows you to
realize the value of any relationship. And when I wrote
my second book, Aprils, of love. It was all based
on the Eastern teachings, which is every stage of life
is called an ushram, and an usherm by definition, is
a place of growth, and so being on your own

(01:33:45):
is an ushroom, and then being with a partner is
an ushrom, and the ushroom is a place of growth,
a place of evolution. And so I think our views
of love have been so warped by just happiness or
pleasure that you forget that the greatest joy a human
can feel is the challenge. And ultimately you're choosing someone

(01:34:05):
that you like to be challenged by, that likes to
be challenged by you, and where the challenge becomes enjoyable
and joyful as opposed to the challenge being exhausting and
tiring and painful. Absolutely right, that's at least what's resonated
with me.

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
That's so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
I love that idea too, that like, the relationship is
the ushroom and sort of like we were talking about,
like yeah, really that One of my favorite quotes that
reminds me of this is from Roomy and Roomy says
if I am irritated by every rub, how will I
ever be polished? And it's this idea that like everything
I think, we so were so quick to jump to
the conclusion that the hard things or the painful things
are things that oh no, like this shouldn't be happening.

(01:34:42):
Why is this happening to me? But I actually believe
then this is actually again I'm going to throw a
lot of this work on myself first, but I remember
being so scared to see people in pain. I couldn't
handle it as a little codependent and somebody to be
in pain I wanted to like because it for them
right now. Yeah, And when I really started to reflect,
they did this exercise once and I went and looked
at the hardest times of my life. I wrote them

(01:35:04):
all on paper, like the big ones, the really hard ones, individually,
and I went through and I looked at, Okay, what
did this give me? What was the hidden gift? And
how did this serve me? How did this grow me?
What did I learn? And oh, my goodness, by the
end of that, I was like tears of like relief
and gratitude because I noticed that in every really hard
time there was this like invaluable lesson that I learned.

(01:35:26):
And I really believe that God puts on our path
for a reason, and I was able to go, oh
my gosh, Like there was a time where I was
going through and trying to get sober, and I tried
to reach out to people and I really didn't get
the support that I needed at that time. And also
because I was difficult at that time of my life too,
I understand why. And it was so painful for me
at the time, and I thought like I'll never get

(01:35:47):
over it, And it was so healing for me to realize,
like because I didn't go looking outside of myself for
something in those moments that brought me into relationship to myself,
into relationship to God. I felt like I really found
a relationship to in those moments and through those times,
and it was like, how could you ever want something
other than that? Like how could like thank God that
I went through that, and it was like this really

(01:36:08):
big relief. And so I think sometimes we were so
quick to think pain shouldn't be happening, bad thing shouldn't
be happening, things in relationships should just be easy all
the time. But it's like sometimes pain is the greatest
teacher and actually presents to us if we are willing
to look and find those things. The greatest gifts in
what's going to grow us in that next season of
our lives?

Speaker 2 (01:36:25):
Well said, Tase, we want to play this game with
you called this or That Relationship Edition. So we're going
to ask you this or that. Let you choose. So Tayse,
slow things down to match their pace, even if you
want more, or move on, to honor your timeline, even
if it means losing them.

Speaker 1 (01:36:44):
I'm scared all my answers are going to be like
communicate and find the middle ground. But I would say,
for sure, be honest, be upfront, tell somebody what your
timeline is, stand in your truth, be really authentic, and
if somebody is unwilling to move and meet you parway,
then you have to yourself and keep it moving. And
I often found I know these are probably supposed to
be quick questions, but I've often found that people who

(01:37:09):
are anxious think, oh, I'll just slow down to win
them over. Doesn't work like that, never works like that.
What you do is you honor your truth, you speak
your needs, you stand in it, and you let that
person either grow and move towards or you don't. And
usually if you're into people pleasing, it's the self betrayal,
and then that feeds back into the subconscious comfort zone.
It just never works that way.

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
Absolutely, okay, cool, next one, stay with someone who feels
safe but doesn't excite you, or choose someone who excites
you but keeps you on edge.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
I would say stay with the person who feel safe
because it's more green flags. But then build things that
create mutual excitement into your relationship. So it's actually one
of the ways it's the right of passage to get
out of the rhythm stage and into the future stages
of relationship is if you feel like there's a sense
of safety but not enough excitement, then you have to
build novelty into the relationship, spontaneity, things that make you

(01:37:56):
feel that sense of chemistry and connection. So safety is
really healthy and good, but then build those things in
that keep that that sparkle live.

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
It's easier to add excitement to a safe relationship than
it is to build safety in an exciting relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
That makes beautifully right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
And it's like we we think that, oh, if something's exciting, oh,
I can make this film more safe. I can make
this film more secure. But that's a much harder thing
to develop from that foundation than the other.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
Way around, and like caveat being that you have to
actually feel attracted as the person the person. I can
see some people being like, oh so I should say
with the person I'm not interested in no way, But like,
the reality is exactly what you said, And sometimes the
constantly on edge is for really painful reasons, especially if
the other person's are going to be willing to do
the work with you.

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Okay, next one, build stability slowly with someone dependable, or
follow instant chemistry and risk the uncertainty.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Build you know' id actually almost go and reverse on
that one. I would say follow the chemistry as long
as you're going to do the work on it. Chemistry
tells us a lot about ourselves those times you get
those really exciting like connections and that like oh my gosh.
That is always we have limreents or intense infatuation for
three reasons. Number one, somebody's expressing your repress trates, like

(01:39:13):
we talked about, do that integration work. Number two, somebody
is meeting your deeply unmet needs from childhood. That'll be
the spark early, and then it'll be the thing that
pressures the relationship later because you're trying to just source
from them, So do that work to really build those
It's sort of this key that unlocked all this awareness
and to yourself. And then the third thing is how
somebody's you know, treating you. If it's how you treat yourself,
we got to work that out. So I would say,

(01:39:34):
follow the excitement, but vet that somebody is going to
do the work with you, not negotiably.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
Yes, getting closure from yourself or closure from your ex
after a breakup.

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
From self, through and through, because what you're looking for
is needs from that person who often can't supply them anyways.
And closure. When people break down, closure, closure, they're actually
looking for certainty. Okay, the best way to get certainty
is to question all of your stories that you're telling
after the breakup. So people want the certainty of their
act saying, oh, it wasn't all your fault, it was

(01:40:07):
this and this and it was me. They want to
hear all those details. You know, what you're gonna do
is you're gonna sit down and write all your stories
on paper. It was all my fault, I wasn't good enough,
I'm unlovable. You're gonna put all those things and you're
gonna sit there and you're gonna question them and you say, really,
I wasn't good enough? How was I got enough? How
did I show up? I'm not lovable? How am I lovable?
And you're going to honor those things. And that's those
things that we're trying to get from your exsor neck
that your ACX is never going to give them to

(01:40:27):
the way that you need, but you can give them
to yourself in that way, and that's healing and its
growth and you have a sense of control over it
and I help you way.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):
It's been incredible talking to you today. I feel like
I've learned so much. I truly believe you've given me
the book, the podcast, and the program to recommend to
all of my friends that are struggling in love and
dating in relationships right now, because I don't think I've
heard a stronger foundational way that people can actually engage

(01:40:57):
and interact with each other. The framework so much gravitas,
but the way you've built the program to be so
simple and specific, feels so practical and tactical and easy
to do for people. It's truly remarkable. Congratulations, Like it's
really fulfilling hearing that I have something to give for
people that I you know that I want to help.

(01:41:18):
We end every on Purpose episode with a final five.
These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum,
So Teddy Skipson, these are your final five. The first
question is what is the best love advice you've ever
heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:41:32):
To learn to be compassionate towards yourself and gentle towards yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
Second question, what is the worst love advice you've ever
heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
To try to change other people if they're not willing
to do the work?

Speaker 2 (01:41:42):
Can you ever change someone?

Speaker 3 (01:41:44):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
People can choose to change themselves, but you can only
show up and lead by example. And that how somebody
else responds Question number three?

Speaker 2 (01:41:53):
A couple here ates that I really wanted to get
to So question number three, what does this really mean?
In dating?

Speaker 1 (01:42:03):
The spark really means that somebody is the expression of
your repressed traits, needing your deeply on that needs, or
mirroring back to you. How you treat yourself when people
have extreme sparks?

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
It's always that good answer. Question number four? How do
people unintentionally push away the love they want most?

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):
Because people end up trying to make somebody the person
who's going to fill it all for them, complete them,
do it all for them, when really we're supposed to
do half that job for ourselves too. Otherwise we can't
receive it properly from anybody, and we to put too
much pressure.

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):
And fifth and final question, we asked this to every
guest who's ever been on the show. If you could
create one law that everyone in the world had to follow,
what would it be.

Speaker 1 (01:42:45):
It would be for people to learn about their own
subconscious conditioning and how to rewire it, because unless we
deal with things at the subconscious level, we'll always set
intentions or say we're going to do things, and then
will often feel so defeated. It was a big part
of what I went through trying to get sober originally,
like what the heck is going on? And I just
I think that's the key that unlocks so much for
people in a deep way.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
The book is called The New Attachment Theory. Heal every
relationship by rewiring your brain and nervous system Tay Gibson.
If anyone wants to learn more about you, follow you,
connect with your work, commit to the program. Where should
they go so that they don't miss out on doing
this work?

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
So they can go to Personaldevelopment School dot com. We
have these really in depth reports. People can get on
their attachment style and take her free quiz and it
goes through all of your pillars and your whole profile.
And then I am also all of our programs are
through there, and I'm also on YouTube which is ty
S Gibson Dash Personal Development School or at the Personal
Development School on Instagram. And I just want to say

(01:43:43):
thank you so much for having me. You're a phenomenal host.
I just honestly felt so connected to you and chatting,
and thank you for bringing all this out of me
and letting me share.

Speaker 2 (01:43:53):
No I said this to earlier. Thank you for being
a resource that I can direct people too, who I
really feel this is such a foundational thing for having
a successful life, like relationships, dating, work, it's everything. So
tell us, thank you so much. Thanks me such a pleasure.
Thank you, and I'm excited to have you that concern.
Thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:44:12):
If you enjoyed this conversation, you love my episode with
the world's leading relationship therapist Esther Parrel where we talk
about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how
to date more effectively.

Speaker 2 (01:44:26):
I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for
chemistry for a love story or are you looking for
chemistry for a life story.

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