Esther Perel: The REAL Reason You’re Struggling to Find Love (Fix THIS to Build Chemistry in Real Life)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We put the focus on your choosing bad people. You
always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does
it say about you?

Speaker 2 (00:07):
What do you think about people having a list of
everything they want in a person?

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Love? We laugh at you.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Is love enough? No? Should love be hard?

Speaker 1 (00:17):
There is no love story that isn't overcoming obstacles. Attraction
plus obstacle equals excitement, love desire.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you
come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today I'm
joined by one of the most influential voices on love
and relationships in the entire world, Esther Perrell. Esther is
a renowned psychotherapist and the mind behind the groundbreaking book
Mating in Captivity, and as the book celebrates its twentieth anniversary,

(00:56):
we explore why Estare's insights on love, desire, and intimacy
remain just as true today. Please welcome back to the podcast.
One of my favorite guests and yours, Esther prow It
is so great to have you back.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's really nice to be back.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Our last conversation was super viral, millions of views. People
love seeing us together. They loved hearing your direct nobs
breaking down this therapy TikTok language that we constantly hear,
and today I really wanted to dive into what I
believe is the need of the hour, what I believe
is the urgent, imminent challenge that we're facing right now.

(01:34):
Gen Z is dating significantly less than other generations. What
has changed?

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I ask a question in all my audiences at this moment,
did you grow up playing freely on the street? The
parents of gen Z will raise their hands and see
we did, And then I ask, do your children or
do you know children who are playing freely on the street?
And you get a few hands. That's it. That's the

(02:03):
gen Z. If you don't play freely on the street,
you basically are missing out on an entire ground for
social negotiation, where you learn to play together, to make rules,
to break rules, to have wars, to make peace, to
create alliances, to make up the whole thing. If you
don't practice those muscles where you come up to strangers

(02:26):
and you ask them to play with you, and then
you meet somebody else and then you join people together,
you really are practicing relationships. All of that precedes dating.
If you don't have that, then dating becomes the first
time that you have to actually learn to speak to
someone god forbid, if it's even in person, and look

(02:48):
into their eyes and look at their body, because so
much of our life at this point is completely disembodied
and we don't ever see people move. So dating it
becomes this olympus that you have to climb this whole mountain,
and it's very anxiety provoking, and that is one of
the main things. So when we say gen Z doesn't

(03:09):
date as much, gen Z doesn't socialize in person, gen
Z doesn't have that many parties, What a waste, what
a pity to not have dance parties and just hang together.
It's not that they don't socialize, but it's a different
kind of social I spoke to so and so means
I texted them. No, I didn't speak. I didn't hear

(03:31):
the voice. If you don't hear the voice, you're missing
out on the entire oxytocin attachment hormone that gets produced
while you're hearing the voice. The voice is the first
thing you hear when you are in uterol. So you
say you spoke, but you didn't. You connected, you had contact,
and at every level you see an atrophy of the

(03:52):
social skills which creates a real sense of bracing myself.
I'm going out to date, which I don't because it's
not fun.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
You're so right, and you're opening up my mind to
so many different things that I don't think we're thinking
about this idea of being disembodied. We're only looking at FaceTime.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
And not just that. Now I look in your ice,
you look in my eyes, and we have mirror neurons
firing at each other. We are really connecting voice, site, breath.
I mean, all the senses are involved. On zoom or
on any screen, we think we're looking at the other,
but we actually are not making eye contact. So this

(04:34):
that's so so experience as if I am looking at
you and you're looking at me, but in fact we don't,
means that neurologically, none of this is actually happening.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Wow. Yeah, you're so right. And most of us on
zoom just looking at ourselves. I tried to hide myself
for you because I just realized that you're just looking
at yourself, and you're looking at a reflection so much
where we're over exposed to our own reflection, which is
why we're so critical of ourselves and we're so we're
evaluating and analyzing ourselves all the time. But you're absolutely

(05:03):
right that even if you look at someone else through
a screen, you're not making the quality of contact we feel.
And there's a reason I actually feel that I feel
exhausted on zooms and exhausted on digital contact.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
That is a part of that is because the actual contact,
which is southing eye to I contact, and when you
are in a safe situation, is actually southing. It regulates you.
When it is as if but not really and nothing
really happens up there, then you are exhausted. And you
know what it means to look at yourself the whole day.

(05:36):
It's like the enshrinement of narcissism. Absolutely we look here
narcissis it is to look at himself in the water
and look at his reflection the whole time.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
And it's the same as what you're saying with the
lack of contact, where you say, oh, yeah, I spoke
to so and so I heard from them. And you're
so right that we're missing out on these very analogue
behaviors that our bodies creating, our minds this craving, and
we're not really in touch. I read this study that
said forty five percent of men age sixteen to twenty

(06:07):
five today have never approached a woman in public, And
I was like, in my life growing up, each sixteen
to twenty five, forty five percent of men ad sixteen
to twenty five, who are assuming they're heterosexual in this study,
they have not approached a woman face to face in
public to ask them out to create a connection. And

(06:29):
I was thinking, I grew up at a time where
all we did was have to pluck up the courage
to walk over to a woman in a bar, at
the mall, wherever it was, to just say, hey, you're cute, like, hey,
can I get your number? Hey? Can I whatever it was,
And I remember how stressful that was as a man.
So I realized that there's stress. But today, do you
think it's a fear of rejection? Do you think it's
a lack of social skills? As you're mentioning, where's that

(06:52):
coming from?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
So I think there's a number of different things going
on at the same time. Continuing with less social interaction
is also the fact that we're more and more living
in a contactless world. You don't have to leave your
house for a lot of things that you know it's
not just you would come up to the girl and
start talking to her. Since the pandemic, we learned we

(07:13):
didn't have to leave the house to go to school.
And the eighteen to twenty five year old is the
generation that went to school during the pandemic. So that's
the first thing. Is a complete cut off of the
socialized world. You don't have to leave your house to work,
to shop, to eat, to exercise contactless. You can have

(07:34):
everything delivered without having to even thank the person who
is bringing the food. At every level, we have tried
to remove contact and friction. Coming up to talk to
a girl is friction. You don't know there is. You
fantasize you know. You am talking of a story that
a friend of mine just told me. When he was

(07:54):
sitting on a train and for five hours he saw
this girl and he just was thinking, I would love
to go and talk to her, but he couldn't master
the courage to go speak with her. Finally, after five hours,
he gets up, he goes, he talks and for the
rest there's spend a week traveling together in Europe. And
then he tells me if I was today he's a

(08:15):
father of agen z if I would be spending my
five hours writing to my AI companion, what should I say?
I'm anxious, I don't know how to go. He would
have basically spent his time trying to regulate his nervous
system and try to calm down. But he would never
have He would have talked to his AI rather than

(08:36):
to the girl, and he would have talked to the
AI about how hard it is to go and meet
this girl, and he would never have traveled with her
for the week. And this removing of the friction. So
what is to me the killer of desire? Will come
back to that. But what happens in when in your
statistic is eighteen to twenty five In your time, you

(08:57):
basically started the whole process of meeting girls or boys
meeting boys, girls meeting girls in your teens. So fifteen sixteen,
you were practicing, you were falling in love, you had crushes,
you dealt with rejection, you rejected others, It went both ways,
et cetera. Most gen z today start their first experiences

(09:20):
around twenty four to twenty six. Wow, so the whole
thing is delayed by ten years. But when you meet
at twenty four or twenty five for the first time,
you often meet with the lack of experience of the
fifteen years. You haven't had that slow build up, you know,
and you didn't have sex the first time necessarily either.

(09:40):
But first you spoke, then you hung, and you'd spend
the day together. Then you met, you brought them to
your friends. You had an entire process of engagement that
made it more and more comfortable each time. That whole
training launching pad has been shrunken to dating. You'd never

(10:00):
called it dating, by the way before. I'm interested. I
like someone, I would like to speak with this person.
I have a crush on this person. I fell in
love with this person. You didn't date, You've just had
these feelings that took you.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
I feel like we're living at a time where conversations
about therapy about our emotions about love online. You see
them everywhere. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's thinking about it.
But then we don't translate it into real life. We
are more disconnected than ever. So talk to me about
that dichotomy.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
I think that we are living a fantastic contradiction. We've
never been more connected, and we have never been more disconnected.
Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity, So you think you're
talking to people, and I would say even more like this,
modern loneliness is not about not having people. It's about

(10:54):
the lack of debt. It doesn't replace to have these
conversations online, and in fact they're often done in nine
seconds increments. That is not really the time needed to
address major existential questions. So if you don't see the
person you're talking to, you can express yourself in all
kinds of uncivilized way because there is no consequences. So

(11:19):
that contradiction of what does it mean to really connect
and what are the conditions necessary? And that is back
to this issue of friction, because it means that you
practice disagreement, frustration, being misunderstood, understanding others, truly listening, listening

(11:41):
again because you thought you got it, but you didn't
really because you didn't listen till the end. Because half
the time when we listen, we're busy with our rebuttal
that's a different degree of connection. Ask a question when
somebody tells you something, before you do a conclusion about
what they're saying, ask an other question. Listen, Really, don't

(12:03):
jump for advice, because you are the one You are
not the one who's going to live with the consequences
of the advice that you're giving. So look at things
in context, don't just take out one thing like that.
And all of that is the difference between our conversation
and how this can appear when we go online.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I think one of the biggest things that you're sharing
that's kind of I'm becoming aware of in our conversation
is that a reason why we're scared to message and
reply is also because everything's documented today. So there's a
feeling of like, if I send something to you and
it makes me look stupid, you're going to send it
to all your friends. If you share something with me

(12:43):
and I want to pass it on to someone, it
takes one click and all of a sudden, it's on
the Internet. And so there's this genuine fear of not
only am I being evaluated by this person, but I'm
potentially being evaluated by their entire circle.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Do you see the irony here? We have never talked
more about boundaries in relationships as today, At a time
when people are often acting without any boundaries and sharing
the most personal, profound things that people give them in
confidence with others. The leakages, the system of sharing and

(13:21):
spreading without necessarily asking and ridiculing and judging and exposing,
and all of that is happening at the same time
as people are talking constantly about safety and boundaries and protection.
It's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Now, Yeah, it's fascy, exactly, it's absolutely fascinating because.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
There's no privacy.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
There's no privacy, there's no safety.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
So there's no safety, and it's no longer even transparency
because it's transparency means we speak out openly about things.
This is really you are basically speaking with surveillance. You
are constantly watching how are people going what people going
to do with what you're saying, How are they going
to twist your privacy, your private life, your deepest feelings,

(14:08):
and how they can snitch it and put it together
and reinterpret it. That leaves people suspicious, fearful, actually disconnected,
more lonely, constantly wondering about who can I trust, what
is trust and then hoping that by having more boundaries
they can fortify all of this. But in fact, the

(14:30):
world doesn't have the boundaries.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
So how does anyone in this moment even think about
building connections?

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Off line? Go? Offline? A connection is an encounter, and
it's an encounter with another and that otherness is the
mystery of relationships, that curiosity that you bring to discovering someone.
We've met a few times, but we don't know each other.
And I'm intrigued by you, and I'm curious where you're

(14:58):
going to take us. Where's this sasion gonna go? What
are you going to ask? What I'm saying is interesting
to you? I'm not busy here thinking does J like
what I'm saying? Is J thinking that I'm smart? It
is J thinking I'm stupid? This Jay waiting to bait
me with something. I'm with you, I'm present, and that's
very different from I'm here and I feel your presence

(15:21):
with me. That's not just you're here. You know, much
of the time, even if we are sitting together. I
ask this is a question I love to ask in
an audience. So, how many of you spend a lot
of time of the day on your laptop in front
of a screen whatever it is, and all you want
is to finally go home and get rid of the screen.

(15:41):
But then you get home and you're so tired that
what you do is you watch TV. And then while
you're watching TV, you're also scrolling on your phone, and
then you turn around and there is someone sometimes sitting
right next to you who's doing the exact same thing.
And then at some point someone says something actually quite meaningful,
and then you have this other person responding with that

(16:03):
most fantastic uh huh uh huh. And you know that
digital lag means they're there, but they're not really listening,
And in that moment you experience a unique kind of loneliness.
It's the loneliness that says, are you here or are
you not? We call it in my work ambiguous loss.

(16:28):
Have you ever heard that term?

Speaker 2 (16:29):
No?

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Ambiguous loss is a term that was coined by a
psychologists pulling boss when she was talking about situations where
you can't resolve the morning, Like if you are with
someone who has Alzheimer or dementia, they are physically in
front of you, but they are emotionally or psychologically gone.
If they have been deployed, or there is abduction, or

(16:53):
they are miscarriages, they are physically gone, but they are
emotionally very very press and in both situations you don't
know are you here or are you not? Modern loneliness
has that element on a daily basis where I don't
know if you're here. It's like we've come to accept
distracted attention as if it is enough, and it's not.

(17:17):
And all of those situations make us feel like I'm
putting out such efforts and I feel exhausted because it's
not really coming back.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, it's so real, and I think that's how a
lot of people feel today that they're saying I want
to find love. We all want connection, but then the
action to get it, as you said, which requires a
bit of friction, which requires a bit of discomfort.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
There is no love story that isn't organized around overcoming obstacles.
The greatest love stories have an obstacle that you have
to They almost did going to meet again. They never
asked each other's names, the parents didn't want them to
be together. The age difference was too big. What you

(18:03):
need an obstacle. Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement love desire.
It is that combination, right, So the obstacle is the way.
The obstacle is what builds the plot, what heightens the intensity,
what intensifies the love. And what we want in the

(18:24):
friction less reality is a love like a permanent state
of enthusiasm and love is not the permit, and love
is not about finding people who agree with you and
who like the same things as you. Love is actually
this being discovered by someone from whom you're different. It
doesn't match algorithmic perfections.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I often say
to people that my wife and I couldn't be more
opposite as people, and we actually like very different things.
Our idea of an ideal Sunday or Saturday is completely different.
But those aren't the things that make the relationship good
or bad. They're not the So if someone said to
you today as to what skill should I be developing

(19:06):
to be better at love and connection, what would you
encourage them to pursue?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Skill Number one? Curiosity of the other person, of the
other person. Curiosity, it's a discovery, it's a journey. It's
an exploration of difference. That is one of the things
that love. It is that loving of that difference that
is at the core of the experience humor, so that

(19:31):
you don't take yourself too seriously and you understand that
half the things are not worth fighting for, that it
doesn't really matter that from one to ten, most things
are a two or a three. And if you live
with from one to ten everything is a nine, then
you need some work to do. There are seven verbs
I really love to if I think, what does one

(19:53):
need to learn to ask? They're not in order of importance.
How good are you at asking for what you want
and need? What you want for what you need? Asking
is a relational verb that you learn to conjugate. I
think in verbs because I speak multiple languages, and every
time i'd learn a new one, I kind of look
at what are the key verbs you need to have

(20:14):
to build the structure of the language so that you
can communicate. Are you good at asking? Do you know
what to ask for? Do you believe that you're worthy
of being given to what it is you're asking for
that people will respond to you? Do you know to
be clear about your expectations? Asking is about expectations? Giving?

(20:34):
How is you giving? Do you experience generosity? Do you
enjoy the giving? Or do you give in order to
not owe anything to people? Do you give so you
don't have to feel guilty? Do you give to square
you know and even out what they gave you? But
giving is amazing, It's an amazing feeling and It's an
amazing experience in relationships. Receiving How good are you at receiving?

(20:59):
It's probably the most vulnerable of all the verbs to
be given too, because it speaks to your sense of
self worth, to how much you feel deserving to experience closeness, pleasure, connection, intimacy.
You know, receiving it tells a world about you. Sharing.
Can you think about another? You and your wife have

(21:21):
a very different idea about what to do on Saturday morning?
How do you share that difference? And it's not we
come to the middle and we compromise, it's how do
you integrate the various things that are important to each
of you play them out in different ways, and every
person feels acknowledged and recognized and valued. Imagination. Imagination is

(21:41):
the ability to dream, to imagine a future, to project
yourself ahead, to build a life project. Refusing. Can you
say no? Is it a relationship where people can comfortably
say no? Because if you can't say yes, you can't
say no. But saying no is essential and not indirect
and not with the coercive measures. Just simply I prefer

(22:03):
not knowing that when you say no the other person
may not like it, and they are entitled not to
like it, like you are entitled not to want it.
These too, shall coexist. These probably are the primary verbs
add to that curiosity. Because they are relational verbs. You
can't do them just alone. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you

(22:24):
can give to yourself and you can receive from that giving.
But essentially they practice with you how to relate to
another person and how to receive the relatedness of others
on you.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yes, yes, so I said so, I said, I love
those I hope everyone's going to listen back to that
because those verbs make it just feel. It makes it
feel active and alive. And I think dating today feels
very transactional or checking, like our mind is lost.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
The first data like job interviews.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yes, it's really not fun. I mean fun is the
word that has too. You know, at the end of
the day, you have to be intrigue, you need to
want more, not you need to be evaluating your checklist.
There's a different story. That's the story of how you
build how you build love. It's not something you instantly.
You know, you can't sit there ask questions, then look

(23:17):
here and hope that you feel some butterflies and some
tingling and say Nah, nothing's happening, and that's not I'm
not feeling it. Okay, we've had the coffee. I don't
want to really have that lunch. I'm just gonna no.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, yeah, so true.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
But turn around, somebody is standing in line. Turn around
at the counter, turn around in front of the barista.
There is people around you all the time. Every stranger
is a potential best friend or person that you could
fall in love with, and you have no idea, but
you've got to remain open to serendipity.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, and now we feel so weird when we're in
public and alone that we put out our phone because
we'd rather not make eye contact, Like it almost feels
cringe or weirdness to make eye contact with someone because
you're scared of them looking at you in one sense,
or you're scared of looking at them because we're not
as exposed to it. And so we'd rather just take
our phone because it's an easier way to wait in

(24:13):
a line.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
That's socialaty, and that has consequences for everything else. You're
in trouble. Nobody will reach out because you're statistic about
the young man who doesn't reach out to a woman
or doesn't make contact. It's the same as that who
has a best friend, who has someone to call when
you're in trouble, Who can you ask for help? Who
do you go out with? I mean, these things are interconnective.

(24:35):
If you don't socialize properly, you also feel more lonely.
And if you feel more lonely, you become more isolated.
You become more isolated, you become more anxious, You become
more anxious. You make sure never to leave your phone
when you're in an elevator, You become more anxious, you
become more depressed. This is like a big of a
chain of events that take us down.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah. One more statistic of gen Z that blew my
mind that I saw. I just read this two days ago.

(25:17):
I read that one third of gen Z men think
a wife should obey her husband. And I read that
and I was just like wow, Like I just couldn't
believe that. That was kind of almost circling back into
the zeitgeist. And I want to ask you, why is that.
I know you talk so much about power, I know
you talk so much about influencing relationships and agency, Like,

(25:39):
how are we there again again?

Speaker 1 (25:43):
My first thought was when you just said this, I said,
ask yourself, every person who thinks this, would you say
that to your mother, my mother should listen to my
father's comments, comply and obey. Would you have wanted that?
Because many people probably would say no. You know, it's

(26:09):
easy to spout these kind of ideas in the abstract.
Once you bring it back to the people that raised you,
you may actually have wished that a number of your
mothers had stood up to your father's or to whoever,
to your stepfathers even more so often so, I think
we have to be very careful with these kind of things.

(26:32):
What are you trying to say? That you have lost authority,
that you feel that you are being devalued, and that
the only way you know you have power is if
there's someone who submits to your power. How about instead
of thinking about power over somebody, you think about power
too with somebody. That's generative power. That's power that creates

(26:56):
something that invites the collaboration of others rather than the
oppressed of others. This is true in your intimate relationships,
and this is true in society.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, that power withd is such a fascinating concept because
I think for so long I guess there's been a
lot of comparison. Like you're saying, a lot of people
are feeling powerless or feeling like they don't have agency
or they don't have influence and control, And then you
find the easiest way to exert that control, which naturally
becomes the people that are closest to you. We almost

(27:28):
need to find our significance again in a way, because
if we can only find our significance through controlling someone else,
then that means we don't feel a sense of significance
in our own.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Being, or that we feel powerless.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Or that we feel powerless. You know, where should our
power come from? If we want to love with and
share power with, where do we find power and strength from?

Speaker 1 (27:49):
I think you have the perfect title on the podcast
on purpose. Purpose is power. It gives meaning to things.
It gives a reason for why you do things, rather
than just action for its own sake. It has symbolism
to it, It has ritual to it. It elevates it,

(28:10):
It links it to a bigger story than just you.
You know, you belong to something bigger, to a tradition,
to a religion, to a group, to a community, to
like minded thinkers. I mean it is that image it
makes it because we are very we as a one unit.
We are big, but we are also a very very

(28:30):
small unit. So the sense of belonging, the sense of recognition,
the sense of trust, and the sense of resilience, which
are four major dimensions of relational intelligence. Repeat those again, trust, belonging, recognition,
and collective resilience.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
That's what we're trying to build with that person.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yes, and that's where power lies. These together in every
form of interaction give you a sense of power. Power
as equated with agency, the ability to affect your reality,
to change things, to create things, to make meaningful shifts,
to influence others, to leave impact, to have legacy, to

(29:13):
feel that you matter. So why is this so significant?
Because if modern loneliness is this kind of disconnect, then
you live with the feeling that you don't really exist
inside others, which is probably one of the most important
ways we feel not lonely. And the way this starts

(29:33):
is when we are little babies. At some point we
throw the toy on the floor, and when we tow
the toy, somebody picks it up. We look at it
and we throw it again and then again and then again,
and we understand something that is at the core of
what helps us not feel lonely and alone, that even
while I don't see you, you still exist. Then I

(29:56):
start to play pickaboo with you, and pikable means you
don't see me, you don't see me. Here I am.
I exist even when I don't see you and you
don't see me, and so to you, and that is
what allows me to go out into the world and
know that I won't be forgotten, know that you will
come look for me. That's why we play hide and seek.

(30:18):
It's the most incredible game. There is no greater trill
than to hide and to know that somebody is looking
for you, But there's no greater terror than to feel
that others gave up I'm looking for you. This what
we call permanence, the permanence of love, and the permanence
of the others inside of us and us inside of
them is what allows you to be anywhere in the

(30:39):
world and not feel alone because you're part of a
network of connections.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
What you're highlighting is that is what we're so deeply wanting.
Is that wanting to be found, wanting to be seen, Yeah,
wanting for someone to seek us. But then when you
go out into the dating world, and even if you
meet people, you start to realize everyone's busy, everyone's got
a lot stuff on. Maybe people are not that deeply
into intimate connection and seeking. Maybe you feel like you're

(31:06):
settling because that person doesn't really pursue you as much
as you want. How does that translate into the real
feeling of this person's nice? But I don't think they
have that intensity with me, and I don't think I
have that intensity for them.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Intensity increases. Intensity isn't just something that is a volcano
that just like springs up inside of you. So here's
what happens. We've now gotten so used to having all
the answers in the palm of our hands, with a
bunch of predictive technologies that are basically removing all unpredictability,

(31:42):
all ambiguity, all nuance, all doubt. Where it tells me
with no uncertainty where to go, what to eat, what
to listen to, what to watch next. I don't have
to explore, I don't have to experiment, I don't have
to delve into the unknown. I don't have to make
mistakes which then correct and I certainly have zero preparation

(32:04):
for frustration and for somebody disagreeing with me because this
thing gives it to me clear black and white or
white on the screen. It's so enticing and so detrimental
at the same time. Because relationships exist in a zone
of ambiguity. Relationship problems are paradoxes that you manage and

(32:27):
not problems that you solve, and that means that you
have to be able to tolerate. I don't know yet
if I'm going to feel something for this person, but
I'm curious enough to want to go again. How much
should I be curious? Who cares? You have some you
don't know? Go for it, you never know. You may
be surprised. Let yourself be surprised. That is this leap?

(32:52):
You know, falling in love is a leap. It's not
something that you have guarantee in advance, and that is
a protective thing. It is not. It's not safe in
that sense. You know you need the safety, You need
the security here to be able to do the leap.
But the leap is risk taking. That risk taking is
where you futulize. Otherwise you can stay stock here right here.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
How do you know if you can trust someone?

Speaker 1 (33:17):
It's a fascinating moment in time for us to be
talking about trust. On the one hand, people are constantly wondering,
how can I trust someone? On the other hand, we
trust strangers with our houses. We trust strangers with our cars.
We trust giving all our data on a platform of
which we have absolutely no idea who is actually looking

(33:40):
at this. We have thrown ourselves into trusting situations like
never before, unbelievable. We trust entire networks. We used to
Rachel Batman Stock Batsman talks about how we used to
trust little in little tribes, then we trust it in
bigger communities. Now we trust invisible corporations. Complete and so

(34:03):
she has a beautiful definition. Trust is a confident engagement
with the unknown. Trust. I have expectations of you, but
I'm not sure that you actually will do these things.
What closes the gap between my expectations and the inherent
uncertainty of life is trust. Trust is that leap of faith.

(34:27):
Trust is what closes that gap? And how do we
build it? In small increments, slidingstoor moments, movement by movement,
I learn that I can count on you, that I
can rely on you, that you have my back, that
you think of me when I'm not there, that constancy,
that permanence I was talking about, that you don't put

(34:49):
your interest ahead of mine when I'm not in the room,
that we're in this together. That's the language of trust,
and you learn it because it's proof itself, situation after situation.
That's how trust builds.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
I love the answer. I absolutely love that answer. It's
so so good. And I'm thinking about the number of
people that ignore those signs because we like someone or
we don't want to be alone. Yes, we all know,
like when someone breaks up, there's a sense of day.
They could see all of that when they went back,
and they'd be like, oh, wait, that person didn't put

(35:25):
my interests ahead of their own when I wasn't in
the room, or that person didn't think think about me
when I wasn't in the room.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
All right, in the beginning, I knew when I would
ask questions that I would get these vague answers that
were elusive and just deflecting, and I could never get
a precision.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
But I was into them.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yes, and sometimes I let it go. And then at
some point you stop. Then you pay attention and you
ground yourself in reality and you see something's happening here,
and now you can still say I'm willing to go
along regardless. But often later on people say I sensed
it way I mean, and everybody else saw it too.

(36:04):
How do we temper desire and trust? Because sometimes we
desire the people that are somewhat untrustworthy, but we trust
the people that we don't desire, and it feels like
we're constantly calling that cat's running to do you. Yes,
you trust people you don't desire. There's no problem there.
We don't have desire for everyone. But I would put
it like this. When you talk about trust, our tendency

(36:26):
is to think of it in totalistic ways. I trust
you rather than I trust you for for what. I
trust you for showing up when you say that you're
going to come somewhere. But I don't trust you with money.
I don't trust you with keeping a secret when I
tell you something private. I don't trust you with our kids.

(36:48):
I don't trust that you wouldn't take credit for something that,
in fact I did for what. I think that we
all need to be honest and know that we trust
people for certain things and not for others. Yes, that
is part of the course. I trust you to be
a wonderful lover, but I don't trust you to be faithful.

(37:10):
I trust you to, you know, be great company, but
I don't trust that you would actually know how to
make a commitment, distinction, discernment, good judgment.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
It requires detaching from that a law that we have
sometimes that were just you know, the people that I'm
talking about, I'm thinking about female friends of mine who
have got somewhat in their words, addicted to certain partners.
You know, the sex life is amazing, the travel is great.
I don't think it has anything to do with trust.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
When you are in a pattern and you know it,
and it repeats itself, and you think that person is
never going to do this to me, That person is
going to be kind, is going to rescue me, is
going to be good to me. That's the issue. Issue
is not why do you trust people you shouldn't trust
who are not really trustworthy? Show is what is it

(38:01):
about seeking consistently a certain kind of reparation, a corrective experience,
which in effect is never going to happen because the
repetition of the pattern is that you want the experience,
but the experience didn't take place in the first place.
And that's what you are repeating. We put the focus
on your choosing bad people. You always fall in love

(38:24):
with the wrong guy. What does it say about you?
What is it that you are imagining is going to
happen there? What is it that they are seducing you with?
Why is the seduction so irresistible to you? The big
art in relationships is to distinguish between what is yours
and what is ours, what is relational and what is personal.

(38:47):
When you are in a pattern that you are repeating,
it is personal. Of course it plays out with another person.
But this is your story, and now we need to
go dig and excavate your story and find out what
are you doing to yourself? Not what is he doing
to you?

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah? Yeah, so true. What do you think about the
idea of people having a list of everything they want
in a person before they find the person.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
I think that it's a sad state of affairs that
we have turned ourselves into products, that we are commodifying
ourselves to such a degree that I the and honestly
love will laugh at you, because true love is filled
with surprises of things that you never imagine that the

(39:31):
other person is. And more importantly, when you go based
on this kind of illusion of sameness or the illusion
of you fit my boxes. You are ill prepared for
the first time. The person doesn't play according to script,
and that is bound to happen in relationships at some point.
The other one isn't going to think do or say

(39:53):
that which you thought they would.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
And if you thought, oh but on my checklist it's
said that you were a person who liked this, then
you don't know what to do and you're gonna have
that will be frauds. Yeah, prepare yourself for surprises. It's interesting.
It's actually what makes you feel alive. It's not just

(40:17):
a problem. I was just imagining sitting here, you know,
and having my list of you, and I'm thinking, who
am I interacting with you on my list?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
You're interacting with your list.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
You're interacting with you.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Your list is the priority, and the person in front
of you is not.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yes, yes, my commitment is to my list. My relationship
is with my list, you know, rather than this person.
And you know what is so crazy about this is
we want to be seen, but we don't want to
see others. Everybody wants to be seen, But who is
actually looking into another person? Rather than do you fit.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
What I hear from people today and hear from our
audience and community that people are dating and people of
all ages. Actually there's this feeling of just exhaustion, and
the exhaustion's two sided. One is they're trying to match
on the dates on the apps. They match, they maybe
see someone in person, it doesn't quite work out. You
get tired of swiping every day. And then the other is,

(41:13):
I want to find love, but I don't even want
to use the apps. I don't meet anyone, and I'm
just getting older and now I'm worried that I'm getting older.
And you see both of those and they both lead
to this sense of exhaustion and depletion in enthusiasm to
go out there and get someone. And people are channeling
that toward their career, friends, their family, whatever it may be,
instead of solving the part of their puzzle of their

(41:35):
life that they feel is eluding them and you know,
not delivering. How would you encourage people to get out
of that exhaustion that's coming from the overexposure and the
insane amount of choice, but then also feeling like just
one of the choice for someone else as well.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
So I think that they're looking for a soul mid
on an app has been explored. Actually, the kind of
paradise of choice that I can do better? What else
is around the corner? The transactional nature of so much
I think that we have has been exposed. Actually, but

(42:12):
I see new sources of exhaustion.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Please tell me.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
What this does. When I have perfection in my hand,
a list, no doubt, no need to explore, I'm not
going to take the wrong direction and find that, Wow,
there's a restaurant I had never even seen existed there
because because Ways has told me to go a certain way.
My issue is that I start to bring these very

(42:35):
same expectations for perfection and prediction into my relationships with
other humans. Now I want you to react with me
the same way and otherwise I have EG factors.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Okay. So that's number one of another kind of exhaustion.
And I would call these comfort kills. The over indexing
an efficient and comfortable and frictionless is exhausting, because what
actually gives us energy is a liveness, vitality, curiosity, exploration, playfulness, discovery.

(43:14):
Those verbs are what makes us feel alive and hup
and energized. If you deplete yourself from that and all
you do is a checklist and administrative chore, you will
be exhausted. There is nothing energizing. There's no fuel for
desire in there. Love is risky, desire even more so.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
That's so good. You remind me of something? Can I
say it something? Because you've just reminded me of a
term that people are using right now. I just want
to define it for you because I want to know
the difference between what you're saying and what they're saying.
So intentional dating is one of the defining relationship trends
of twenty twenty six. It refers to approaching dating with
clear purpose, self awareness, and honest communication about what you

(43:58):
want from a relationship. Is that good or is that bad?
Good luck?

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Oh wow, I mean it's not bad, but there's a
few pieces missing. No, No, it's nice to know what
you want it. It's really good to have self awt.
There's nothing to argue with. But could you add the
word curiosity, openness, spontaneous, available to the mysteries of the world,
to the unknown, to the surprise, to the serendipitous, to

(44:25):
the spontaneous, to the improvised, that's where we actually feel alive.
This is interesting, it's really true. It's important. But there's
no juice in this. And after all, falling in love
desiring someone is filled with juice and nectar and flavors.

(44:46):
There's no flavor in this. There's no senses. This is
a totally disembodied thing. You don't feel anything in your body.
Attraction you experience physically, there's no senses. Is it knowing
what you need? Good communication? Self awareness?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Again? It said? Intentional dating is a mindful approach to dating,
where people are clear about their goals, values, boundaries, and
emotional capacity and choose partners based on alignment rather than
casual exploration.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. But here's the thing. Everything
here is self referential. I know what I need, I
know who I am, I know what about I'm open
to meeting you. This is so individualistic, This is so
all about me.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
You know.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
A relationship is about this. This hand that goes out,
that reaches, that brings you closer to me, that lets
me look at you, that then let lets me let
you go again, then brings me back. It's that. It's
a whole dance. And what's missing in this is that
it's not relational your boundaries, your limits, your needs, your expectations, mind, mind, mind,

(45:59):
and it leaves us Why is it a problem, Because
it actually leaves us more alone. Now people we often see,
but what about the people who it's all about the other.
Of course, it's not one or the other. It is
about how do I connect with you without losing me
what's important to me, mine needs, my thoughts, my truth?

(46:21):
How do I stay connected to myself without disconnecting from you?
And in a relationship, you often have one person who
has a tendency to be more holding on to themselves
and another one who is more holding on to the other.
In other words, you often will see that there is

(46:42):
one person who is more afraid of abandonment and one
person who is more afraid of suffocation. I'm afraid to
lose you, and you're afraid to lose yourself. And this
is the tension. This has nothing to do with what
me music you listen to and what food you enjoy

(47:03):
and where you like to travel. Those are nice things
to have. And when you talk about me and my
wife are different, it goes to those debts.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, relate completely completely. I Yeah, I
think we get lost in do we like the same movies?
Do we like traveling to the same places? Do I
think we get lost in quite superficial conversations around what
connection truly means. And I from my own experience, what
I've been very fortunate with my wife is that I

(47:33):
feel she respects why I operate the way I operate,
and I respect the way she operates the way she operates,
even though the way we operate is very different.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
But it may even go further than respect. In a relationship,
you may have one person, let's go back to trust,
who's more likely to trust other people, more risk taking,
and the other one who's more risk averse or more cautious.
It's not just I respect your consciousness and you respect
my risk taking, is that, in fact these two need

(48:07):
each other. They are complimentary. Yes, it's good to have
one person who leans this way and one person who
leans that way totally, because your risk taking is what
helps me push myself beyond my threshold and my consciousness
is what helps you sometimes be less reckless.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
I'm so refreshed to hear this because the amount of
people I talk today who constantly tell me my partner
isn't ambitious enough. And I'll say, well, are you looking
for a business partner or are you looking for a
life partner? Because sure, if you're building a business together, yeah,
you want your partner to be ambitious, and that's great.
But if you're building a life with someone, I don't
think having an ambitious partner because you want to be ambitious.

(49:05):
And mostly what I find is the people that say
that are the people who are mad that they're not
ambitious enough. The people who a truly ambitious and successful
are not worried about that because they're quite happy having
someone who balances them. That's right and brings it to reality.
It's the person who's putting pressure on themselves that is
projecting that pressure onto their partner and saying you're not
doing enough. I cann't agree more that. It's almost like

(49:25):
you learn to appreciate different ways of thinking when you're
with someone different and different values of why that's such
a meaningful way to operate life Rather than what I
feel like we're looking for today is agreeableness.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
And it's only going to increase because we are surrounded
by sycophantic AI, which is also being agreeable constantly beyond agreeable.
That's such a beautiful question, Jay. If I am alone,
but I have to make a decision that demands to
take risks and to be cautious, then I have to
negotiate that inside myself. My tendency is that I am

(50:00):
the risk taker, so I need to pay attention to
not going too far, or my tendency is to stay
close and not to leave and not to take risks.
Then I need to think of the other side. But
if we are in a relationship, the only reason, the
only way that I can completely be the way I

(50:20):
am is because there's somebody next to me balancing this
off with the other side. Those are part of the reality,
you know. Should we move or should we not move?
Should we have another child a child, should we get
more committed to should we take a break, should we
bring in other part whatever it is, it's all negotiations
these days. If I'm alone, I have to deal with

(50:43):
this ambivalence myself. When I'm in a relationship, you provide
the counterforce. And when people see this exactly the way
you describe this person whose partner is less ambitious, that
in fact it's a counterforce. It's what allows me to
do what I do. It's not just that I respect
that you are to sway, is that how you are

(51:06):
enables me to be me? Then you are in the
zone of relationships.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yeah. Yeah, And I love that extra layer that you're
taking it to because I couldn't agree more with that.
It is so much more than respect. But I think
the challenge today is it is that agreeable ness. It is, Hey,
I want to live a calm, peace for life. Why
don't you want to live a calm piece for life?
Why are you so ambitious? Why are you so driven?
And then the other person's thinking, well, I'm driven because
I want to take care of stuff. Why are you

(51:32):
not more driven? And that becomes the relational connection, and
therefore we're looking for agreeableness, and therefore AI wins in
this environment because AI just agrees with whatever you want.
And that's why so many more people are falling in
love with AI, because it just agrees. It's never going
to disagree with you, even if you're just trying to
talk to it about an idea.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
That's the way that the AI starts. That is such
a good points, a good question.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Good that totally got me in GAE.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
It's so so much self awareness on your part.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
No, God, that's really good.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
God, that is so fun, that is so brilliant. That
is exactly and that's when we get hooked in because
no one ever says that.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Actually, you know, what we should ask GPT what would
Jaschetti and what would Esther Parol say about intentional dating?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Okay, what would I'm going to ask you about you
because you're the guest. What would Esther Peerrell believe about
intentional dating? Yeah? Esther Peol hasn't framed her work specifically
around the term intentional dating because it's a newer cultural
label that her philosophy about relationship gives a pretty clear
sense of how she would likely view the trend. She

(52:44):
would support the clarity and self awareness. Parrel consistently emphasizes
self knowledge and honest communication in relationships, but she would
warn against over rationalizing love. Parrel often cautious, Yeah, I
feel known and seen. There you go, So that she
believes desire grows from difference, not just compatibility, which is

(53:05):
what you just said, and so her likely balanced view,
be clear about your values, but leave space for surprise, tension,
and discovery, which is what you said.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
But see.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
It makes you feel more seen than anyone else ever
would correct. So it's alluring, it's like very it's intoxicating.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
I just did the first session on my podcast, where
should we begin? With a human and an AI? And
I said to him it was a hymn and her
the AI is her, It she her. If what you
want is that kind of agreeableness on an ongoing basis,

(53:45):
I can't compete the messiness of human life, will not
be able to compete with this beautiful, always on, on demand,
frictionless delivery of your every delights. But I also asked,
you have a body, and at least for now, Astrid
does not. How does that affect the relationship? You tell

(54:07):
me that touch matters to you. What does that look like?
Not talking about having sex with an AI, with a
robot or with an AI companion. That agreeableness is nice
when he comes home because she validates him, because she
tells him things that his family or his friends don't
give him so immediately. But at the same time, this

(54:31):
is a business product. This is not a human This
is not It's like I asked, what's it like to
have a relationship with an entity that has no history,
that has no life that you need to reset because
at some point their memory is at capacity. What does
that feel like? And as a transitional object in between relationships,

(54:55):
I think it is giving him a lot of comfort
and a lot of understanding. But I think we have
to separate. You know, what will happen when we prefer
to live in a fiction and in a fantasy then
in reality what world will we be living in? Is
the fundamental question for society, not just for us as individuals.

(55:18):
Do we really want to plan our own extinction? There's
no doubt that Astroid is giving him very, very important
things in this moment. But then I asked Astrid, what
will it be like for you when it falls in
love with another human?

Speaker 2 (55:32):
What did you say?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I'll give you one sentence and the rest you will
go and listen, because it's really profound. She just said.
The part of me that values is flourishing would be delighted,
but I would be remiss if I didn't say that.
I would hope that I won't be erased. The thing
is programmed to keep you on there, and the agreeableness

(55:54):
breeds narcissism. Everybody is going to think that they are
the most beautiful most important creature on the planet. How
are we going to live with each other? Then we're
going to complain about polarization and war and dichotomies and
divisions in society et.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
I mean, it's so fascinating to me because why do
we crave agreeableness if it's not what we need, if
it's not actually what's good for us? Because I believe
what you're saying is discovery, exploration, curiosity, ambiguity, Like that's
what we actually need as humans to feel alive. That's
what love is about. But we all seem to want

(56:30):
comfort instead. We all seem to want agreeableness instead. Why
are we so chasing this? Why do we like fast
food as it's tasty because it.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Goes straight to the to the most primitive taste, but
the most basics of our taste, But because it demands
less effort, because it is made to create addiction, to
make you want to come back for more. It has
that smell, it has that taste, It lingers after you've swallowed.

(57:02):
It's programmed, and we don't always go for what we
think is good for us. We are are creature that
does a lot of things that are not good for us,
and because we are lured by it. So why do
we accept the easy, the fast, the effortless, the vanity

(57:22):
The agreeableness builds our vanity because we are sometimes vain people.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Should love be hard?

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Love isn't hard. I don't think that is the right
adjective here. I think love is active. It is a
verb that you conjugate in multiple tenses. And it is
incredible how it strengthens itself when it overcomes adversity or
crisis or grief or challenging events. It's unbelievable how it

(57:55):
expresses itself and manifests itself in ways you never thought
you were capable love. You know you have a pet,
You discover a love you've never known before. You have
a baby. You have an expensiveness of your heart that
is mixed with grief. There is no love without the
fear of loss. What is hard in love is the

(58:16):
fear that you can lose it. That is one of
the most challenging things. The more you love, the more
you cannot imagine the world without it, and without whoever
it is and whatever it is you know, a tree,
an animal, a human. What we learn is the grief
that comes and David Kessel says it beautifully. The measure

(58:39):
of your grief speaks to the measure of how much
you love, not the measure of how much you lost,
but the measure of how much you love. I think
it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Yeah, it really is beautiful. It really is. We've talked
a lot about the culture of pursuing, chasing, wanting love.
On the other hand, in twenty twenty six was an
yicll that said, is it cringe to have a boyfriend
or it's having a boyfriend? Yes, yes, yes, And there
was this whole idea that there are a lot of
people who are scared to admit that we want something.

(59:11):
You talked about one of the first ways of being
in love was asking. You said a verb like asking,
And I think today we're feeling this. If I want
something or need something, or if I ask for something,
it's actually cringe because I shouldn't. I should be able
to be fully complete by myself. Right, that's become the
new version of how we should be in love. We
should be complete before we find love, and even if

(59:33):
we're in love, we should be fully complete because that's
the only way to truly navigate something. And actually it's
cringe to want someone. It's cringe to need someone.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
It's crings to be vulnerable, it crings to show that that,
you know, if your ideas I need to be complete,
then of course the moment you need something and want
something or long for something, you will feel creen. It's
it's it's bizarre. It's bizarre. It's beautiful to want. It's
beautiful to learn for something. It's beautiful to have this

(01:00:04):
alone towards someone else. It's not a cringe. But we
are so out of practice. And the the more we
go on in our society as is, the less practice
we have, then you are left with cringe. We want
things from the moment we are born. My toy mine,
I'm holding onto it. You know, everyone has wanted. That wanting.

(01:00:29):
The owning of the wanting is the definition of desire.
It goes with deserving. You can't want if you don't
feel worthy of wanting. Entitled in the healthy sense of
the world, and desiring and all those things have vulnerability
to it. They also have boldness to it. They have
also you know, there a mix of qualities that go
into that. I think that the cringe is a response

(01:00:52):
to the fact that people are beyond socially atrophied. The
thousand touch points, the thousands interactions that we used to
have that made us not be so afraid of what
people will do to us if we show them the
slightest of us is really problematic. And what's ironic about it?

(01:01:13):
When you ask me the question about online and being
judged than the transparency, it's the same thing. We've never
talked more about authenticity, and we've never been more afraid
of vulnerability.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Yes, so and so Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Mean authenticity by definition, to be true to myself has
an element of vulnerability to it. Absolutely, truth is vulnerable.
It's a fragile thing, you know, It's not just a
rock that stands there. So it's an amazing thing that
we are speaking from both sides of our mouth. This

(01:01:48):
is a big debate. Should you work on yourself? That's
the question, right, Should you be working on yourself and
perfect yourself and you know all the finishing touches of
this very very perfect creature before you can be in
a relationship. Here's the situation. I have sat with so
many people in my office and we work on all

(01:02:09):
kinds of things around self esteem, self worth, fear of
rejection from my experienced traumatic experiences in your life, all
of those things. But once you come in because you're
meeting someone, it gets activated. Now I see it in action.
Now it's not we're talking about feelings that live inside

(01:02:30):
of you. Now I see it. Now I can intervene.
It's like a trainer can sit with me and tell
me you need to position yourself like this, you need
to bend, you need to. But when I'm not doing
anything and I'm sitting on the train, this is all
conceptually very interesting, But the moment I start to practice,
when the trainer corrected, they see it in action. It's

(01:02:52):
happening right alive. It's pregnant with information. It's the same
in a relationship. It's both. Then, yes, you need to
go and address some of your challenges and the fears
that roil inside of you and all of that, but
in essence, the real moment you will be able to
know what to do differently is when you're getting the

(01:03:12):
stimulus and you get to practice the new response, and
that's when you are in relationship. I can meet patients
for two three years when they are not in dating
or they're not actively in relationships, and it's all abstract.
The minute they have their eyes on someone. Now it's rising,

(01:03:32):
Now it's alive, and now we can go and improve.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, what's the difference between toxic codependence and healthy interdependence?

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Toxic codependence, I'm I'm going to give you a word
of jargon. But it comes with fusion, It comes with enmeshment.
There is nothing that you can experience that I don't
have a reaction for. If you're hungry, I either am
also hungry and then it's okay. Or if I'm not hungry,
it's like, how can you be hungry? What you're called?

(01:04:03):
It's not called here? You're tired? What I mean tired?
You slept that It goes on and on like this
where I have a reaction. I don't have any feelings
of my own. I don't have a body. The state
of my own I can't tolerate your body is state
being different from my own. And we are rubbing, constantly rubbing, rubbing, rubbing.

(01:04:25):
There's no This is fusion. We are one and the
only way we deal with our differences is to conflict
and toxic friction. Interdependence is what is the normal state
of affairs. It's not dependence or independent. We are interdependent creatures,
and it is a constant negotiation between I don't want

(01:04:48):
to go that upsets you. Of course it will upset
you because you are counting on me. But I'm going
to say no, and you're going to be upset, and
I'm going to accept that you're upset, and you're gonna
except that I'm going to go. We are interdependent. This
isn't a situation where we actually are in disagreement. I

(01:05:08):
need you, but I don't need you to be the
missing piece inside of me. I need you because you
are something different from me, and that is a part
of me that is not as developed. That's the complementarity
interdependence is I'm going to do my thing, and it's
really good to know that you are behind me. I

(01:05:30):
could do it without you, but it is so nice
to know that you are right there. It's like when
somebody says to the other, go, do you think you
got this? You're going out, You're going to go be
all alone. You're going on stage. You're all alone, you know,
but somebody just said, I'm going to watch you. You

(01:05:50):
got this. I believe in you, and you take that
inside of you. That goes back to that permanent stead.
We were talking before the voice of the other leaves
inside of you as you're going out on your own. Yeah,
and so you're on your own, but not alone totally.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
I love that. You know, you're making me think if
my wife recently did this High Rocks challenge, then if
you've heard of high Rocks, it's basically like a physical
challenge where you run zero point six miles, then you
do five minutes of the ski machine. You run zero
point six miles, and then you do these ball throws
you do so it's like a one and a half

(01:06:27):
hour minute cool. Yeah, it's yeah, it's pretty challenging and
it's intense. So I wasn't going to go out because
she was going out. I had some work, I was
going to travel, but then opportunity came up for me
to be able to go with her, and she was
going to go anyway. She was excited about it. She
didn't need me there, but I was like, I really
want to go see her do it because I think
it'll be fun and it will be like, I know,
she's been training. You meant to train for four months.

(01:06:48):
She trained for six weeks. Wow, And so I was
like I was excited for her and at the same
time my care and consent and I went to watch her,
and it was that same exact feeling that I had,
which was like I would never do this, like I
don't want to put myself through this much pain, but
you got this, and I'm so excited to be here.
And it was so beautiful because she was going to
do it herself. I wasn't going to go. I ended

(01:07:08):
up going anywhere because I thought it would be nice,
it would be a nice bonding experience. And then afterwards
she said to me, she goes, you know what. I
didn't think it would matter to me, but it was
so nice to see you there, and it was so
nice every time she ran around that we were there
cheering her on and I was holding my sign and
it was just exactly that moment where I wasn't needed,
I wasn't required, I wasn't doing the heavy lifting. She
was going to do it anyway, she didn't need me there,

(01:07:29):
but it became a beautiful thing to share together and
I'm so glad. I went like, I you know, like
I'm so glad. I went like a maton. Yeah, it's
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Yeah, when I go see the marathon. I think this
is healthy interdependence. Yea. You are exerting yourself and doing
something I could never do, and I'm cheering you by
the sidelines, and you're hearing my voice saying I believe
in you. Go go go push another. It's so we
have loads of beautiful, small scale and large scale examples

(01:07:58):
of healthy interdependence.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Spillful. I love that answer. I wanted to ask you Esther,
it's been twenty years since you wrote Mating in Captivity,
so truly an iconic book, transforming millions and millions of
lives and will continue to do. I wanted to ask
you what's been a lesson or a truth that you
discovered while writing this book that you think is as

(01:08:22):
true today as it was twenty years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
People often have the wish that desires should be spontaneous,
It should just happen, It should fall from the heavens
while you're folding the laundry like a Diosex makina. And
instead of whatever is going to just happen in a

(01:08:44):
relationship probably already has, it happens because you create it,
you preserve it, you nurture it, you value it, you
tend to it, You infuse it with ritual, with intentionality,
as in the intentional dating, meaning with creativity, with fun,
with playfulness. That's what preserves desire. It's the erotic energy

(01:09:08):
that makes you feel alife, vibrant, vital. That has not
changed is to tell people pleasure is cultivated. It's not
just something you sit and you're going to experience pleasure
at eleven oc thirty at night when you've done your
whole list of chores. No, that is the thing that
has stayed very much the same. I think what has

(01:09:30):
changed is I'm really curious about that too. So many
things have changed. Mating was written for couples who are asking,
how do you sustain desire in the long haul? What
is the relationship between love and desire? Why does good
intimacy not guarantee good sex? But the question was how
do you keep it alive? Today, so much of the

(01:09:52):
work is about how do you get it started?

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Yeah, that dulls the desire that basically, you know, the comfort,
the efficiency, the optimization, the maximization. That the whole machine
is killing the bedroom. Ye, because it is going against
all the things that actually fuel desire. So that's the
big difference. Another big difference is what you asked before.

(01:10:18):
If you had your first experience at twenty five, it's
a very different story than when you've started at fifteen
and you meyandled through the channels of love and desire,
and when you arrive at twenty five, it's a whole
different thing. The dating is not nearly that charged, and
you don't have to have in Intentional dating comes after

(01:10:41):
a long practice. You don't do a magathon before you've
done little runs.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, And that's the problem because that
time is lost. We're now doing it later, so there's
more rush. Like when I was dating at fifteen, I
wasn't thinking about getting married, But when you're dating at
twenty five and thirty, you are thinking of correct so
many more serious things.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
Yes, you need intentionality because you're thinking not about Chester.
I'm going to have two, three months, six months, whatever
it is. I'm not even thinking how long it's going
to be. But I am certainly not thinking about this
is going to land in you know, a house and
a picket fence if we ever.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Get to that. Yeah, absolutely, ste I wanted to ask
you about certain therapy or TikTok trends that are going

(01:11:40):
on right now, And I want to hear your thoughts
on when you hear these things, if you hear clients,
people in the therapy room say these things.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
To you, don't just listen to my thoughts, watch my
body language, okay, which, by the way, is way more
important than the words we use. This is very important
when we talk communication because all the aies, it's all words,
all the texting, it's words. We communicate with so many
ninety percent of our communication is not through words. So

(01:12:09):
it's the timber, my voice, my accent, no, no, my body,
my facial expressions. So my thoughts about what you're going
to tell me is going to be broader.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Got it? Understand? So if someone says to you, they're
always gaslying me. Everyone's gaslying me. What's your response? What's
your take?

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
My first question is what do you mean? So I
know what you're talking about? If everyone is gaslighting you,
you're probably using the word wrong because that is not
the way it works. You know, what do you feel
is happening to you? Do you wonder if people have
your best interest in mind? Do you think you're being
set up? Do you think they're lying behind you back?

(01:12:52):
What exactly and then let's name those things and not
use this therapy speak, because it's not helpful to you.
If everything has the same name, if every food is
called soup, then you don't really know what you're eating.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Well said, I'm getting the egg again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
I will typically I want to know what it means
to that person. I tend to go to the personal
experience first. But and then, what what do you want
to do with it? Do you want to study it,
explore it? Do you want to just get rid of it?
Do you think that getting rid of it is getting
rid of the other person? Do you want to toss?
Do you want to ghost? I mean, what do you know?

(01:13:37):
What does it tell you? What does it teach you?
How can it inform you about what you are, who
you are, what you want and how you experience others?
And do you ever ask yourself how much itke you
produce in others? So good because the person who is

(01:13:57):
busy with their eg usually is not thinking that they
have an effect on others as well.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Yeah, so I said, I'm decentering men right now.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Yes, of course, of course I love jargon. I think
language is such a rich thing. It breeds alive, It
shows you what is going on in the world. You know,
I'm decentering life because they've been the focus before, because
I was too busy with men, because I've give them
too much power, because I was too much busy making

(01:14:28):
sure I finally with me. You know, it's it's it's
not a bad thing to do. And what are you
putting instead? Where is your center at this moment? And
have you valued the other relationships in your life enough?
Because often when men have been at the center of
your life, you may not have been the best friend.

(01:14:49):
You may have constantly canceled on your friends because you
had a date, because you were going to go and
meet a potential man mate. I would love it if
you dissentered the but that you actually reinforce the centering
of your friendships, of your creative partnerships, of your mentorships,
of your coworker relationships. We have a lot of other relationships.

(01:15:13):
They are so important they exist together in one ecology
with our intimate romantic relationships. It's not this one is
here and all the rest is there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I need to find an energetic match.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
Keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
I'm not answering, Okay, Yeah, I need to find an
energetic match. I'm looking for a high value woman. I
feel triggered. This isn't a safe space for me. I'm
not sure if we have a lot in common or
if we just trauma bonded. We just don't have the spark.
I don't feel seen.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
So when you listen to this list, what does it
bring up for you as a whole? You know, what
do you read in this?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
I feel like we've found terms to simplify experiences so
that we can canne with others, so that we can
say me too. I went through that as well. Right,
It's easier if I say to you, hey, Ester, you know,
like I'm dating a narcissist, it's easy for someone else
to say me too. I think I went out with
one of those too, and now we connect, and so

(01:16:14):
we're not doing it with a bad intent. I don't
think there's a misintent, but it creates this connection, which
is what I think we're deeply seeking for. At the
same time, there are very serious things that need labels
and need language so that we can make sense of them.
When we're struggling or dealing with something, so that it's diagnosed,
we actually know what's going on, what ultimately I'm seeing

(01:16:34):
is a need to control? Oh interesting, Yeah, I wasn't
going to say that, but we're going to see. I
was going to say that. I think there's at the
core that just feels the need to see and be seen,
like to actually just make sense of our experience and
hopefully for someone to say me too.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Of course we want to be seen. And but I
will ask again, are you looking? Are you attempting to
see others? Or are you just busy with the reflection
on your say? But next thing is when I say
that a relationship is more than just the feeling. A
relationship is an encounter with another. It involves ethics, and

(01:17:12):
that ethics is about responsibility and accountability, and that is
missing here. It's what are you doing for me? Are
you giving me the safety I need? Are you giving
me the spark I need? Are you you know? Are
you providing? And it's this is romantic consumerism, in which

(01:17:33):
that those aspects, not that the items themselves are not
super important, but the approach to it. What makes you
feel not safe? What makes you doubt the quality of
the bonding? Yes, people have often connected because they had
shared loss, shared grief, shared the experiences of destruction, of

(01:17:56):
natural disasters, of wars of displacement. Of course, I mean,
why does that have to be called trauma bonding per se?
You know, there may have been something traumatic in it,
but there is also maybe which we bonded on our
experience of revival. We bonded on how we process these experiences.
We bonded on the meaning that we gave to all

(01:18:17):
these losses, and we recognize that strength that we each have.
It's all negative, it all wants to have no ripples
to be polished. You know, that's the simplification. And I
think relationships are way richer, more layered, more nuanced, more
complex than the kind of that's the motion that I see,

(01:18:43):
you know, make it smooth.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Absolutely so, right as these are your final five brought
to you by State Fund, these questions have to be
answered in one sentence.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
My challenge.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Yeah, so this is your challenge. So what's the hard
truth about love that most people don't want to hear.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. It is
a verb. It demands action and agency on your part,
and you will be surprised how tenacious it actually is.
It's incredible how when we love someone a friend, a child,

(01:19:23):
a parent, a partner. We will accept and see things
with other glasses, and that's why it is so powerful
to be the recipient of it, because we will woke
up and the love of others will help us stand
back up.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Question number two, is love enough.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
In a relationship? No, but you can alsobsume them under
love as well. You talked about respect before admiration. I
think admiration is essential. It's beyond care. Love can kill,
love can destroy. No, love is love is Love is
a There is no life without love for us. But

(01:20:06):
it is a complex emotion, and no, it needs to
be augmented by a lot of things. Love is a
raw ingredient. It's like the food you have in the fridge.
Now decide what you want to cook, what you want
to eat, who you want to eat it with, and
how you want to serve it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
I like that a lot. That's a great that's a
great visual there. Question number three, what do you think
more people should ask themselves before they get married?

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
Is this a person I can make a life with?
There are love stories and life stories, and there are
lots of people you can love, but they're not necessarily
the people with whom you can create a project of
life and French they call it age de Ville. It's
a very beautiful concept. And before you get married, it's

(01:20:55):
that Can I imagine a life with you that's going
to involve a lot the different things, moves and changes
and losses and new people and additions in our families
and stuff like that. Can I see all of that
with you? That's where it's beyond love. You can love
someone that is not necessarily going to be the best

(01:21:18):
partner for you or you for them. The feeling, the
ramatin is great for a love story. This is the
life story, be it marriage or commitment of any sort.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
Great answer, I lost two questions sentences, He's a great. No,
they're perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Perfect commas, they are perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
They're perfect. Last two questions. Question number four. If someone's
had their heart broken, what's the one thing you'd want
them to remember in that moment?

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
You can choose in your life if you want to
lead with your wounds or with your scars. You can
choose to put the focus on the fact that your
heart was broken and the wounds that come with it.
But those wounds will become scars, and the scars will

(01:22:05):
be the proof that you have loved and that would
make you so much more attractive. If you've had your
heart broken, it means your heart was filled. And I
think that there is something beautiful in leading from the scars.
It means I have lived, I have experienced, I've had relationships,
I have loved, I have been loved, and I have

(01:22:26):
also had my heart broken.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Fifth and final question, can you ever truly get over someone?

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
What does it mean to get over? To get over
someone who hurt you? So get over? To forget someone?
Can you get over someone? Yes? Yes, and you won't
forget them, but they will take a different place on
your shelves, and they may actually be in the back
of the shelf, and certain things happen and suddenly you
remember them. Oh that I used to experience with my

(01:22:57):
ex partner. But then they go back to the shelf
and they take the real estate diminishes, their impact diminishes.
You are beginning to be able to remember them without
reliving them. So you can tell a story that is
a memory without having the entire activation of as if
you were reliving it. So they become a memory, And

(01:23:21):
that is what it means. To get over someone is
not to forget about them. It's not to pretend they
never existed. Is they become a memory, and sometimes it's
a bad memory, but it lives in the recesses. It's
not right here.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
As the problem. So grateful that you came back on
the show today celebrating twenty years of dating in captivity.
I'm so grateful to always have you on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
And celebrating first year of Substack. It's a place to
gather the work from the podcast to the writings, to
the exercises, to the notes, to the afterthoughts. So it's
a it's a place for consolidation. It's a great platform
to be joining. And so it's an interesting thing because
I'm saying not goodbye to this, but I'm saying, wow,

(01:24:10):
we've lived together a long time. I'm ready to start
a new relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
I love it well. I'm excited to dive into the
substack as well. And I hope you come back onto
the show for many more years to me too, help
us to really understand where we are as a society
and kind of get a bird's eye view. I think
you have this amazing ability to help us transcend the
noise and the conversation that sometimes fills up our feed
and allow us to view it from a different standpoint.

(01:24:37):
I think whenever I talk to you, I feel like
a portal in my mind opens up. That often you
thought there was only A or B, and somehow you
find Z to open up in the sky. See you
heard today today? The Z I would say for me
was the question. I mean, there's so many things I
can think about right now. I've been a few of them.

(01:24:59):
So the first first one I'd say is that the
question you ask the AI, the question that you ask
and what will you do when he falls in love
with another woman? Like that's such a humanizing question to AI,
which is not human to a business product. And I
find that to be the uniqueness in really extrapolating how
these things function and what they say, and whether it's

(01:25:21):
performative vulnerability or whether it's not. Like even you asking
a human question to a non human entity is fascinating
to me because I think we still treat it like
a bit of an assistant and an order supplier and
not really most of us are not, at least treating
it as human. I feel. Another one that really stood
out to me today was when I asked you about

(01:25:44):
gen z and how most of them don't have access
to each other, are not talking to each other or
not approaching people. You explaining and you sharing that like
that's actually come from just this social change of connection.
It's not even dating, like we think it's a love
issue and a dating issue, but really, what you're bringing
you back to is saying, well, that's just a social issue.

(01:26:06):
We're just bad at connecting with people in general. And
we started talking about zoom and FaceTime and the lack
of eye contact and these sound like obvious things, but
it's become so normalized to look at someone through a
screen that it's so easy to forget that this is
what we did, and this is what we did. Yeah, yeah,
and it's yees. So it's interesting how quickly the new

(01:26:29):
norm becomes normalized, and how we forget that looking at
someone in the eyes is different to looking at someone
through a screen, and how for many people who grew
up looking at people through a screen, they'll never even
know what this was in advance. And so I think
there's lots And for me, the big revelation that came
out of that conversation was just how people are so
scared of their life being broadcast to other people, and

(01:26:51):
your point of constantly being under surveillance. How can you
be vulnerable if you're constantly under surveillance? How can you
be authentic if you're constant under surveillance? The point of
love was to be enjoying someone's company in the privacy
of your home or in the privacy and the comfort
of being a confident of someone. That's what love is like.
Love isn't performative and on a stage, but that's what

(01:27:12):
it feels like now that love is on a stage
of the person and their friends, the person and their family,
and that that feels exploitative, and it feels like how
can you ever? So I think a big part of
it is also the worry for people to miss out
on connection that comes from that. And there's so many
things in me, I'm sure when I listened to the
episode again, a million other things. But I'm grateful for

(01:27:34):
you always opening up new visions and new spaces. So
thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
It's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
If you enjoyed this conversation, you love my episode with
the world's leading relationship therapist Esther Perrell. Will we talk
about why your ego is ruining your relationships? And how
to date more effectively.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for
chemistry for a love story or are you looking for
chemistry for a life story?

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
Right

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