March 24, 2023 • 36 mins
Antonia Cereijido interviews former prosecutor of the International Criminal Court Luis Moreno Ocampo about his real life experience, which inspired the Oscar- nominated film Argentina, 1985. They discuss the relevance of the film today given that democracy is under attack in many parts of the world and the role of movies in helping to process painful and unspoken histories, which for both Moreno Ocampo and Cereijido are deeply personal.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we start, a quick warning that this episode contains
upsetting testimony of human rights violations. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Id thein ideenty five. It is a movie who is
shedding right on this issue in a way that you
can understand. It's not the legal thing, it's emotional clear.
That's why for me the movie is a great movie
but also producing a sacain. But that's amazing because distancing
time and distancing space reduce your moral ability.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
From futuro media and VRX, It's Latino USA and Maria
Rosa Today, a conversation with the real Louis Moreno Ocampbo,
the deputy prosecutor featured in the Oscar nominated film Argentina
nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Fancy Lucia Gavilo Lebo, Lagoscio, Antonis Jocz.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Latino Usa, Alum Antonia Serejidro is back for an intimate
conversation with Luis Moreno Ocambo. He's the real deputy prosecutor
featured in the film Argentina nineteen eighty five. Here's Antonia
with the story.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Last week.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Argentina nineteen eighty five was one of the films that
was up for Best International Feature Film at the Oscars,
and while it didn't win, the movie has been sweeping
awards shows throughout the season, including Best and I don't
love the name of this prize Non English language Film
at the Golden.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Globes Chisi Maracia Maga I think.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
The film stars beloved Argentine actor Ricardo Ladin and was
directed by Santiago Midre.
Speaker 6 (01:57):
How the immense privilege TUJII film with the Dicardoerin, who
is one of the best hitters of the world, and
I love him, He's great.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
But the film success is doing much more than just
giving us Argentinians or in my case, kids of Argentines,
another reason to celebrate. It's making people in different parts
of the world stop and think about the importance of democracy,
foremost how fragile it is.
Speaker 6 (02:21):
I want to share these for our all, the people
who since the dictatorship, have been fighting to build a
better democracy in Argentina. On the keep on Fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I recently sat down with Luis Moreno Ocampo, former Chief
prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, whose life story partly
inspired the film. We discussed the relevance of Argentina nineteen
eighty five today and the role of movies in helping
to process painful and unspoken histories, which, in the case
of Moreno Ocampo but also myself, are deeply personal. My
(02:57):
father's family was forced to escape Argenti in nineteen seventy six,
at the height of a brutal military dictatorship led by
Jrgue Rafael Vivela. If you saw Argentina nineteen eighty five,
you'll remember him. He's the main defendant on trial. But
while this part of Argentina's history is so ingrained in
my family's history, it was mostly unknown to me for
(03:19):
a big part of my life. I was born and
grew up in the US, and for most of my
childhood and adolescence I didn't even know Viveda's name. He
was like Voldemort in my household, someone not to be
spoken of. But that all changed when I was twelve.
At the time, I was an annoying and precocious preteen,
obsessed with cinema and would often go to the public
(03:41):
library and take out movies. One day I came across
Lestia Official, The Official History, which was the first movie
to win Argentina an Academy Awards. Good bit one. That movie,
like Torio Official, came out in nineteen eighty five, a
(04:03):
couple of years after Vivela's dictatorship ended, and it's about
one of the more perverse aspects of that time period
in Argentina, the emergence of Lesa Presidos, or the Disappeared.
The military government was kidnapping and murdering citizens they suspected
of being communists or in any way against the military government.
(04:23):
Many of the disappeared had infant children, and in hundreds
of cases, those children were separated from their parents and
adopted into military families. The movie centers on a mother
who realizes that her adopted daughter was likely one of
those Childrensius. I remember watching this movie for the first time.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
I was alone.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I cried hysterically, and I felt this deep sadness. But
amidst that sadness, I also felt something unexpected anger. I
remember asking myself, why didn't I know this history my
whole life? I was told my dad was in exile,
but I didn't really know what that meant. I felt
like I had been denied information that was key to
(05:12):
understanding who I was. Why didn't my parents ever tell
me about this? Nearly twenty years later, I know much
more about Argentina and my family's history. But I still
had a similar experience watching Argentina in nineteen eighty five.
(05:33):
This time I wasn't angry, but rather I felt like
lines were being colored in, like I could understand a
part of my own history that had previously been inaccessible.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And do answer let a play, answered Saki Bohen.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
While both Argentina nineteen eighty five and the Official History
are about the legacy of the military dictatorship, this year's
movie centers the story of two lawyers, Julio Strasea and
his assistant Luis Morino Ocampo, who were the prosecutors in
the trial against former dictator Vivela and several other military leaders. Straseda,
(06:12):
the head prosecutor, passed away in twenty fifteen. Luis Moreno
Ocampo would go on to become the first Chief Prosecutor
of the International Criminal Court in the Hague. In the film,
Morino Campo is portrayed by actor Peter Lanzani.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
I could try to Conejo in Ndolaos doesn't presume Ambo.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
When I found out.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Morin Ocampo is currently a visiting professor at the University
of Southern California and is based in Los Angeles, where
I live, I knew I needed to interview him. I
pitched the story about Argentina nineteen eighty five being an
important film to understand the fragility of democracy, which is true,
and we'll get into all of that. But in my
heart of hearts, this was an interview with the man
(06:56):
who put the dictator that made my family flee from
their home country behind bars. I wanted to know how
Morino Campo, who at almost seventy one years old forty
one years my senior, understood this period of time, and
I secretly hoped that talking to him would unlock something
deeper about my own family history.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
From the microphone, that's good.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
As long as you're speaking directly to it, it will
pick it up from like a really far angle. Even
I visited the former prosecutor at his home in Malibu. Okay, Okay,
so we're going to start at the beginning, Okay. I
was curious how Prosecutor Morino Ocampo experienced the years of
military rule.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
My family have two different traditions. My mother family are
basically army guys. My grandfather was a general. On the
other side, my father's side is really different.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There were teachers for generations Morino Campo's maternal family fought
on the side of military coups, and his paternal family
were staunchly against them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In ninety six, I was fourteen. I was drinking tea
in the health of my grandmother and my uncle were
explaining that they were involving a kubleta in nineteen sixty six,
and my father was saying, no, it's wrong. So there
was a big debate. And I love my ancles. There
were nice people, they were honest and they really believed
(08:19):
all its efficiency. But older, but I feel, okay, this
is crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Marino Ocampo understood that his family was not going to
see ITAI on the issue of military coups in Argentina
during tea time around the table.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So I need to study law to organize his country.
So that day that was when you decided, Yeah, I
got fourteen. I said, okay, this is crazy. I need
to study law. Then, when in nineteen eighty three democracy
went back, the.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Lastic leadership to control Argentina, the one at the Center
of Argentina nineteen eighty five, began in nineteen seventy six
and lasted for six years.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
It was during that period that I.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Was teaching and I was working as a clerk of
the Solicitor General office. But then the junk started the.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Trial, on which Videla, my families and I'm sure many
other families in Argentina's Baltimore and other military leaders would
be prosecuted. There was still a lot of trepidation about
whether Argentina's newly democratic institutions like the court system, would hold.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Up, and Jul prosecutor needed assistance, and there was a
problem because the normal people surrounding him were refusing to
do it because they were afraid or they were more
or less support in the media regime. It's called me.
I told him, it's my first case. I never the
case in my life.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And throughout all this, Marino Campo's family, on his mother's
side was still very close to military leaders. His mom
even went to Mass with General Videla.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
When I was in mitigating the crimes. I was going
to launch in my mother's house and she say, no, no,
it's not possible. What you say, I don't know. I
was with Jernbydela in the church and he's like my father.
She cannot believe that I would write.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
The military's argument was that their actions were political events
or contingencies of combat, that they were in a war
against an enemy who were made up of political dissidents, socialists,
or left wingers. Many were union leaders and university students.
But what Sasieda and Morino Gampo were trying to prove
in the case was that the military government committed state terrorism,
(10:34):
that they engaged in crimes in a covert way, kidnapping
people in the middle of the night, torturing them in
secret concentration camps, and dropping people out of planes so
they would fall towards their death and their bodies would
never be found. The victims were not held as political prisoners,
they were disappeared. There was no legal recourse for what
the government was doing, and all of this was hidden
(10:57):
from many Argentine citizens.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Piri suro.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The trial of the Juntas was going to be televised,
and so it was going to be the first time
many in the country learned of what happened during the
dictatorship from the victims themselves.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Digas com Ploto Yaegido.
Speaker 8 (11:22):
Adriana Calbold.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Perhaps the most haunting testimony came from a physicist named
Adriana Calbo de la Borde, who was kidnapped by the
military when she was pregnant with her third child, so that.
Speaker 8 (11:36):
Trent.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
When she started having contractions, her prisoners put her in
a car. She thought they were taking her to a hospital.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Juvo Bevendala, but sodalos.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
This is the actual testimony for Adriana at the trial
in April nineteen eighty five. She's saying that she was
lying down in a car with her eyes lindfolded and
her hands handcuffed behind her back.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Manicamp and.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
She says the man who drove when his partner were laughing.
They told her they were going to kill her and
her baby anyways, so why did she care if she
made it to the hospital or not.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
Jo Nicomo anc Tomas Efetia mine Nacio naciva.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Somehow she was able to take her underwr off to
give birth. The car was still moving forward quickly, and
she yelled, I'm giving birth, I'm giving birth. I can't
hold on anymore, and then her baby was born. The baby,
still hanging from Adrianna's umbilical cord, fell from the seat
onto the floor. The baby cried, and Adriana, with her
(13:09):
hands tied and her eyes blindfolded, begged the people in
the car to hand her baby over. They refused.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
Maybe brava sacla.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Manos address.
Speaker 8 (13:23):
Amela Ganda.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Adrianna's testimony was a turning point for many in Argentina,
including Moreno Campo's own mother.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
After Adriana Caordi provide testimony for the judges, explaining how
she had she gave birth seated in a in a
police car, Han Cafette.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
My mother.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
The following they called me and say, I still love
General Videla, but you are right. You got to go
up to Jade.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Despite its importance, I only learned about Adriana's testimony this
year when I watched the film Argentina nineteen eighty five.
It's a powerful yet alienating sensation to learn facts about
something so formative that you didn't actually experience, but yet
explain a lot of your situation and circumstance. That reality
(14:25):
that Adidiana and thousands of others lived is what my
family fled from. When I was a teen, I would
fantasize about what it would have been like to grow
up in Argentina. In San Diego, where I did grow up,
the distance between the houses often felt like a metaphor
for the distance between the people I would visit, winos
(14:48):
aires and the chalky white apartment buildings seemed to topple
into each other, like the teens on the street who
were not embarrassed to kiss other teens and adults on
the cheek. Taxi drivers would go off on everything from
the latest political scandal to the merits of transcendental meditation.
I was always amazed how they had a take on everything.
It made me feel at home at La Joya High.
(15:11):
I always felt loud, too opinionated. It was hard for
me to imagine that not too long ago, in Argentina,
the culture was dominated by secrecy. In nineteen seventy six,
when my father was fifteen, his mother told him he
needed to pack a suitcase and that they were going
to leave the country. My dad and his older sister,
(15:34):
my aunt Maririta, thought my grandma was being dramatic, making
too big a deal of the political situation. They didn't
want to leave their friends.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
On the plane.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
My grandma, who liked my grandpa had left leaning political views,
told them that she received death threats, a voice on
the phone saying they were coming to kill her, her husband,
and her children. My grandma took those threats seriously because
she saw what was happening in their social circles. People
she knew were now disappeared. A decade would pass before
(16:11):
my dad and most people in Argentina would understand the
full scope of what had happened during the dictatorship, and
that's thanks to events like the one that's depicted in
Argentina nineteen eighty five, the trial of the Juntas.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Senor requeesis.
Speaker 7 (16:26):
Unia Argentina particular perotabile la consciencia urica universal mean and
commandalo la ulta mission the present lmento telles clamarcuticia.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
When we return, I continue my conversation with prosecutor Luis
Moreno Ocampo and ask why it's important to remember this
part of history.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Now, welcome back to Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa. Here's
(17:37):
Antonia serejuido once again with the rest of the conversation
with Argentine lawyer Luis Moreno Ocampo.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Before we dive back in, here's a clip of Ricardo
larn As Julio Strassera during his closing argument describing how
the actions of the military government were taken without the
consent of Argentine citizens. He describes those acts with three
words fearce, clandestine and cowardly.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
Imperented advice, juando trece de los o mas and nombre
lass armadas to mark equal full reporta logolpe aria supercivai,
(18:29):
Carlo senor quess meat, trips feros clandetina Ecovarde.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
This film, I think is also meant to make a
statement at a certain time. Why do you think this
movie matters right now?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, movies always matter because movies define the memory. Movies
defined the memory, so you had to win the case
in court the memory, he said, bit the miss professor
he had usc he was a refuge at four he
won't a fuller price, And he said, you fight your
(19:15):
wars twice, first in the battlefield, then in the memory.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Did you have awareness of that when you were working
on the trial.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, yes, I remember before when I was doing the mitigation,
I read something that opened my eyes. The story was
about the disagreement between US and DCOM. Was in Paris,
and one day apparently the American general pulled a bottom
(19:50):
of the elevator. The stop opened the door, and inside
alone was a small Bacom general. So suddenly the two
enemies were together in a close place, so the American
general could not stop himself and say, okay, we're making peace.
But you had to recognize that you never never could
(20:12):
defeat us in the battlefield, and a general say, look,
if you want, I can't recognize that, but then you
should recognize that that is irrelevant. Who won in the
battlefield is relevant because we're making peace here. That's the point.
So I found that no, and the and is not
(20:35):
in the movie. The idea to do a case against
the generals was like that the alsen seen as a candidate.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Marino Campo is referring to Raoul Alfonsine, who would go
on to become the first democratically elected president of Argentina
after the last dictatorship period.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
He proposed to to investigate the crimes, and the candidate,
the Parents' Party would was the biggest party, say we
cannot do it because it's an amnesty adopted by the armies.
We cannot investigate the pass and saying no, it's a
self amnesty, it's new, and I think one people both
for him. So that way, I d case is very
(21:17):
unique because it's not just the case. The case was
a piece of a political process proposed by a leader
and supported by the maturity of the community. That's why
the Truth Commission report was very important, and that's why
the trial was so important. And all this happened two
(21:40):
years after the end of the jettoship. That was amazing
because for that in Germany you had cases that happened
eighteen years after the neu metrans were done by the
international judges and prosecutor, so supported by the American, Russian, French, British,
not the Germans. The German did nothing, nothing until fifty
(22:00):
two six three, so because they were afraid to create conflict.
They were afraid of that. So Spain in nineteen seventy
five Franco left power and led a new democracy coming,
but there was an agreement that Franco could not be mitigated.
So the stain and transition to democracy was the model.
(22:24):
Avantsin was against the model and everyone was telling him,
you're wrong, Basy, But that's why the film showed the case.
But the case is just a piece of the more
complex social political activities.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Before you worked on the trial, did you have like
any faith in democracy?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Right, yes, I believe in law, I believe it.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
But did you think it would like sustain.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I don't since say, we had to do the trial
to end fifty years of impunity and Kubida and she
was right. I believe in that, So I believe. Okay,
I believe we should do that.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yeah, one thing is we should do that. But do
you think it would work?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Wait, you working? Now?
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Well that's what I so like. I mean, now, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I worked at at this company that you know, USA,
and the day after Trump was elected, there's a Chile Naw,
there's me. Chile was also under control of a repressive
military dictatorship under Auto Pinochet from nineteen seventy four to
nineteen ninety. One of our coworkers, who was who's from
the US, was like, the two of you are having
(23:36):
a different experience because I think it was like we
come from families that were very much impacted by having
leaders like Trump, and it does feel like there's been
like a shift. There's so many decades of democracy and
now it seems like there's something weird happening, and I'm
just curious what your thoughts are about that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We definitely what what is happening is that the world
is changing in dramatically Internet it's a revolution, and we
lawyers are not adjusting. We are not learning how to
use new technologies to help people. On the contrary, we
(24:16):
are using technology to attack people. Yes, the more on
the contrary because for me, what I learned in my job,
I learned something very basic. How do you treat violent people.
You can treat them as criminals, but they have rights
(24:37):
and you have to respect the rights. Or you can
do them as enemies that could be killed. Argentina in
nineteen sirventy six consider this fight. It's a cold war
fight against communism, but to kill the enemies. I remember
the journal it played to me. They did what they
did to support freedom and democrat See as a general,
(25:02):
you cannot tell me that you torture and kill to
protect freedom and democracy. And he say, prosecutor, those are
our values. They are the enemy. So Argentina and nineteen
seventy six was treating violent people as enemies to kill.
So the army considered as Indian citizens as enemies, abducted them,
(25:28):
tortured them and execute them. In nineteen eighty five or
different will expect the rights of the commanders. They had
the rights and had to put the evidence and some
of them were acquitted, so they have rights. They were
not considered enemies. They were treated as suspects and convicted,
and that is the basic distincsion I see in the
(25:49):
international scenarios. We are still very primitive. They were still
very primitive, and we're still using wars to manage conflict.
So because in the war you can kill the enemy.
And that's why I feel this is teaching between how
to manage violence as criminals or enemies is a key
issue and one of the reasons I like to be
(26:11):
in the cinematic art school and also now involved with this.
From discussion on the movie for the Oscar, I was
trying to understand this industry is because ending wars is
needed if you won't survive. But it's not a legal aspect,
it's a political aspect because starting a war is popular.
(26:33):
People support starting wars. In the US, Wols became popular.
Even today, Iraq war is still valid. The Congress is
not able to stop the authorization to use war in
Iraq even was adopted on the false premises. Obama does
not stop the wars. Putin is more popular today than
(26:54):
before in Russia. So war is a very old mechanism
but is popular because people feel protected and people don't
care about killing outside my people. That's the point, and
that's why we need movies, not just lawyers or trials.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
People are saying that the country has never been more
divided politically, and people don't know how to talk to
each other. And it's interesting to me that even from
the get go, you're like the side of my family
I an agree with, I love them. You've had this
battle on international human rights courts at the dinner table.
How do you think people should talk to their family
(27:38):
members that don't see ida eye with them?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, one of the things I like in the The
Ideentified movie is that Miteri presented very well the conflict
using families. His show a family supporting the legal change,
but a thread that would be a trap, and we'll
go back my family presented in the Army families, families
(28:03):
who believed they were fighting communists and while they're now
they're attacking us, and the victim family is suffering. Now
this woman having a baby in a car contact and
a young kid who was in high school students and
his friend disappeared. So all this information about her family,
(28:23):
So the family is a great way to present the problem,
and I was thinking, Okay, in the US, you got
a trial on January.
Speaker 9 (28:33):
Sixth, substantial evidence showing that the president's December nineteenth tweet
calling his followers to Washington, d C. On January sixth
energized individuals from the Proud Boys and other extremist groups.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
The Old six leaders were convicted, and it's interesting because
the lawyer of them say they jiu was very fair.
So it's great first trial, but it's not discussion on
what happened these people, Why these people mobilize themselves to
do what they did. We're not understanding what's happened here,
(29:15):
so and that why for me, it's not just about
who was breaking glasses or windows in the Congress. It's
about what happened with these people? Why are they acting
the way they're acting? And I think that is something
the movie in a Canadin explore and we need to
keep exploring in the US. In Brazil it's the same.
(29:39):
I'm shocked how similar is generally eight in Brazil with
January six the in Washington it's identical. And then idea
they five. It's a movie who is shedding light on
this issue in a way that you can understand. It's
not the legal thing, it's emotional clear. That's the why
(30:01):
for me, the movie is a great movie but also
producing a social impact. It's amazing because distance in time
and distance in space reduce your moral ability. Now, if
someone is killed ten years ago, okay, someone is killed
in Singapore, Okay, if I'm gonna someone kill the corner
(30:22):
of houses different And this movie helped us to cross
time because my youngest kid now learn about what happened
to the movie. For me, one of the most interesting
things happening is all the high school stud and then
I watching the movie. Now that's amazing. The new generation
learn what happened, and it's important because for them, democrats
(30:42):
was normal. Now learning it's normal that it does to
fight for it and keep improving.
Speaker 7 (30:49):
Seniors, he express some pretension the originally that but as
a relitor, a pretendency for Tensa a total Pueblo Orgentino.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Senor oasis non comas. As a movie is crossing borders
because democracy is under fire everywhere. So the movie became
important in Brazil, in Spain, in the US. The movie
(31:27):
is crossing borders, are reaching many people.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Has there been any particular moment in the impact that
stood out to you one screening that you remember so far.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Well, the first cleaning was more important because I was
alone in the big cinema.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Did you cry?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
No, No, I don't cry.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
No, you're giving me the impression that you don't cry
a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, I never cry during the investigation, the junta never.
But when I was I went two weeks break before
the trial started. He started, and in those days I
went to see official story.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
He's referring to the movie that was the first Argentine
film to win an Academy Award, that one that I
watched when I was twelve.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So the movie was nothing, nothing brutal, nothing comparable that
I knew, and I was crying on the movie when
I took about this issues. Did my job protect my
emotions when I was watching the movie? That movie with
no correction with me was more impacting. I liked to learn.
So I use I was involved in awful things in
(32:37):
mitigations of Gene sign that fool afy killings, that what
happened to Gan? That was Joseph Corney. So I was
involved in many, many conflicts in the world. But I
tried to learn why is happening. No, it's similarly like
my I liked to under some my deue bantl Booby. Yes,
I liked on to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
It's very interesting to me that love was more than
just a career for Morino Campo. It was a way
that he could process his family's history. Watching movies like
Lectoria Officiad and Argentina nineteen eighty five have helped me
process my family history. My dad always said that he
(33:22):
was in exile, and I understood that my grandparents lived
in Mexico City because they had to leave Argentina. But
I didn't actually know what happened until I saw Dictorioficiad
when I was like twelve on my own volition.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
I like took it out from the library because I
was curious, and I was so mad at my dad.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I was like, why didn't you tell me any of this?
And he was like, because you don't have to carry
that like that was the worst experience of my life.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And it's a difficult dialogue. No, for probably that's what
happened to you happened many family It's different for them
to talking about what's happened to them. It's very painful, very.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Painful Honestly, between this film and in Mumbia, I've like
never been prouder to be Argentinian.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
I'm like really feeling that it's our year.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, it's funny Argentina. Okay, we got messy, but the
team was a team.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Normally I'm not good in teams. We have messys, but
no teams. This time we have a team supporting messy
as different.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
In last week's Oscars, Argentina was defeated sort of ironically
by its arch rival on the soccer field, Germany, which
competed with an epic film set during World War One.
All quiet on the Western Front. But I'm left feeling
hopeful because it took many years of losing to the
German team before we won the World Cup again. So
I'm expecting another Oscars matchup between the two countries sometime soon.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
No, thank you for inviting me to conversation.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
As I left at the door, Moreno Campo told me
to not be too hard on my dad and to
send his regards to my parents. It's clearer now that
it was an act of love for my dad to
not tell me about this upsetting history. And it is
my active love for him to continue to seek it out.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
This episode was produced by Antoniejiro. It was edited by
Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Stephanie Lebau and
Julia Caruso. The Latino USA team includes Daisy Contreras, Mike Sargent,
Marta Martinez, Victoria Estrada, Brenardo Leos Junior, and Patrice Sulbera,
with help from Raoul Berez. Our editorial director is Fernanda Santos.
(36:04):
Our associate engineers are Gabriel Lebiaz and Jjkrubin. Our marketing
manager is Reis Luna. Our New York Women's Foundation fellow
is Elizabeth Loento Torres. Our theme music was composed by
Zanguel Luinos. I'm your host and executive producer Marino Hosa.
Join us again on our next episode and in the meantime,
look for us on social media and remember no te
(36:25):
vayes unca coe.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
Latino USA is made possible in part by the Ford Foundation,
working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide,
The Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
More at hsfoundation dot org and the John D. And
Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation,
Before we start, a quick warning that this episode contains
upsetting testimony of human rights violations. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Id thein ideenty five. It is a movie who is
shedding right on this issue in a way that you
can understand. It's not the legal thing, it's emotional clear.
That's why for me the movie is a great movie
but also producing a sacain. But that's amazing because distancing
time and distancing space reduce your moral ability.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
From futuro media and VRX, It's Latino USA and Maria
Rosa Today, a conversation with the real Louis Moreno Ocampbo,
the deputy prosecutor featured in the Oscar nominated film Argentina
nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Fancy Lucia Gavilo Lebo, Lagoscio, Antonis Jocz.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Latino Usa, Alum Antonia Serejidro is back for an intimate
conversation with Luis Moreno Ocambo. He's the real deputy prosecutor
featured in the film Argentina nineteen eighty five. Here's Antonia
with the story.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Last week.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Argentina nineteen eighty five was one of the films that
was up for Best International Feature Film at the Oscars,
and while it didn't win, the movie has been sweeping
awards shows throughout the season, including Best and I don't
love the name of this prize Non English language Film
at the Golden.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Globes Chisi Maracia Maga I think.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
The film stars beloved Argentine actor Ricardo Ladin and was
directed by Santiago Midre.
Speaker 6 (01:57):
How the immense privilege TUJII film with the Dicardoerin, who
is one of the best hitters of the world, and
I love him, He's great.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
But the film success is doing much more than just
giving us Argentinians or in my case, kids of Argentines,
another reason to celebrate. It's making people in different parts
of the world stop and think about the importance of democracy,
foremost how fragile it is.
Speaker 6 (02:21):
I want to share these for our all, the people
who since the dictatorship, have been fighting to build a
better democracy in Argentina. On the keep on Fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I recently sat down with Luis Moreno Ocampo, former Chief
prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, whose life story partly
inspired the film. We discussed the relevance of Argentina nineteen
eighty five today and the role of movies in helping
to process painful and unspoken histories, which, in the case
of Moreno Ocampo but also myself, are deeply personal. My
(02:57):
father's family was forced to escape Argenti in nineteen seventy six,
at the height of a brutal military dictatorship led by
Jrgue Rafael Vivela. If you saw Argentina nineteen eighty five,
you'll remember him. He's the main defendant on trial. But
while this part of Argentina's history is so ingrained in
my family's history, it was mostly unknown to me for
(03:19):
a big part of my life. I was born and
grew up in the US, and for most of my
childhood and adolescence I didn't even know Viveda's name. He
was like Voldemort in my household, someone not to be
spoken of. But that all changed when I was twelve.
At the time, I was an annoying and precocious preteen,
obsessed with cinema and would often go to the public
(03:41):
library and take out movies. One day I came across
Lestia Official, The Official History, which was the first movie
to win Argentina an Academy Awards. Good bit one. That movie,
like Torio Official, came out in nineteen eighty five, a
(04:03):
couple of years after Vivela's dictatorship ended, and it's about
one of the more perverse aspects of that time period
in Argentina, the emergence of Lesa Presidos, or the Disappeared.
The military government was kidnapping and murdering citizens they suspected
of being communists or in any way against the military government.
(04:23):
Many of the disappeared had infant children, and in hundreds
of cases, those children were separated from their parents and
adopted into military families. The movie centers on a mother
who realizes that her adopted daughter was likely one of
those Childrensius. I remember watching this movie for the first time.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
I was alone.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I cried hysterically, and I felt this deep sadness. But
amidst that sadness, I also felt something unexpected anger. I
remember asking myself, why didn't I know this history my
whole life? I was told my dad was in exile,
but I didn't really know what that meant. I felt
like I had been denied information that was key to
(05:12):
understanding who I was. Why didn't my parents ever tell
me about this? Nearly twenty years later, I know much
more about Argentina and my family's history. But I still
had a similar experience watching Argentina in nineteen eighty five.
(05:33):
This time I wasn't angry, but rather I felt like
lines were being colored in, like I could understand a
part of my own history that had previously been inaccessible.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And do answer let a play, answered Saki Bohen.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
While both Argentina nineteen eighty five and the Official History
are about the legacy of the military dictatorship, this year's
movie centers the story of two lawyers, Julio Strasea and
his assistant Luis Morino Ocampo, who were the prosecutors in
the trial against former dictator Vivela and several other military leaders. Straseda,
(06:12):
the head prosecutor, passed away in twenty fifteen. Luis Moreno
Ocampo would go on to become the first Chief Prosecutor
of the International Criminal Court in the Hague. In the film,
Morino Campo is portrayed by actor Peter Lanzani.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
I could try to Conejo in Ndolaos doesn't presume Ambo.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
When I found out.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Morin Ocampo is currently a visiting professor at the University
of Southern California and is based in Los Angeles, where
I live, I knew I needed to interview him. I
pitched the story about Argentina nineteen eighty five being an
important film to understand the fragility of democracy, which is true,
and we'll get into all of that. But in my
heart of hearts, this was an interview with the man
(06:56):
who put the dictator that made my family flee from
their home country behind bars. I wanted to know how
Morino Campo, who at almost seventy one years old forty
one years my senior, understood this period of time, and
I secretly hoped that talking to him would unlock something
deeper about my own family history.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
From the microphone, that's good.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
As long as you're speaking directly to it, it will
pick it up from like a really far angle. Even
I visited the former prosecutor at his home in Malibu. Okay, Okay,
so we're going to start at the beginning, Okay. I
was curious how Prosecutor Morino Ocampo experienced the years of
military rule.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
My family have two different traditions. My mother family are
basically army guys. My grandfather was a general. On the
other side, my father's side is really different.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There were teachers for generations Morino Campo's maternal family fought
on the side of military coups, and his paternal family
were staunchly against them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In ninety six, I was fourteen. I was drinking tea
in the health of my grandmother and my uncle were
explaining that they were involving a kubleta in nineteen sixty six,
and my father was saying, no, it's wrong. So there
was a big debate. And I love my ancles. There
were nice people, they were honest and they really believed
(08:19):
all its efficiency. But older, but I feel, okay, this
is crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Marino Ocampo understood that his family was not going to
see ITAI on the issue of military coups in Argentina
during tea time around the table.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So I need to study law to organize his country.
So that day that was when you decided, Yeah, I
got fourteen. I said, okay, this is crazy. I need
to study law. Then, when in nineteen eighty three democracy
went back, the.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Lastic leadership to control Argentina, the one at the Center
of Argentina nineteen eighty five, began in nineteen seventy six
and lasted for six years.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
It was during that period that I.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Was teaching and I was working as a clerk of
the Solicitor General office. But then the junk started the.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Trial, on which Videla, my families and I'm sure many
other families in Argentina's Baltimore and other military leaders would
be prosecuted. There was still a lot of trepidation about
whether Argentina's newly democratic institutions like the court system, would hold.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Up, and Jul prosecutor needed assistance, and there was a
problem because the normal people surrounding him were refusing to
do it because they were afraid or they were more
or less support in the media regime. It's called me.
I told him, it's my first case. I never the
case in my life.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And throughout all this, Marino Campo's family, on his mother's
side was still very close to military leaders. His mom
even went to Mass with General Videla.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
When I was in mitigating the crimes. I was going
to launch in my mother's house and she say, no, no,
it's not possible. What you say, I don't know. I
was with Jernbydela in the church and he's like my father.
She cannot believe that I would write.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
The military's argument was that their actions were political events
or contingencies of combat, that they were in a war
against an enemy who were made up of political dissidents, socialists,
or left wingers. Many were union leaders and university students.
But what Sasieda and Morino Gampo were trying to prove
in the case was that the military government committed state terrorism,
(10:34):
that they engaged in crimes in a covert way, kidnapping
people in the middle of the night, torturing them in
secret concentration camps, and dropping people out of planes so
they would fall towards their death and their bodies would
never be found. The victims were not held as political prisoners,
they were disappeared. There was no legal recourse for what
the government was doing, and all of this was hidden
(10:57):
from many Argentine citizens.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Piri suro.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The trial of the Juntas was going to be televised,
and so it was going to be the first time
many in the country learned of what happened during the
dictatorship from the victims themselves.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Digas com Ploto Yaegido.
Speaker 8 (11:22):
Adriana Calbold.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Perhaps the most haunting testimony came from a physicist named
Adriana Calbo de la Borde, who was kidnapped by the
military when she was pregnant with her third child, so that.
Speaker 8 (11:36):
Trent.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
When she started having contractions, her prisoners put her in
a car. She thought they were taking her to a hospital.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Juvo Bevendala, but sodalos.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
This is the actual testimony for Adriana at the trial
in April nineteen eighty five. She's saying that she was
lying down in a car with her eyes lindfolded and
her hands handcuffed behind her back.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Manicamp and.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
She says the man who drove when his partner were laughing.
They told her they were going to kill her and
her baby anyways, so why did she care if she
made it to the hospital or not.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
Jo Nicomo anc Tomas Efetia mine Nacio naciva.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Somehow she was able to take her underwr off to
give birth. The car was still moving forward quickly, and
she yelled, I'm giving birth, I'm giving birth. I can't
hold on anymore, and then her baby was born. The baby,
still hanging from Adrianna's umbilical cord, fell from the seat
onto the floor. The baby cried, and Adriana, with her
(13:09):
hands tied and her eyes blindfolded, begged the people in
the car to hand her baby over. They refused.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
Maybe brava sacla.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Manos address.
Speaker 8 (13:23):
Amela Ganda.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Adrianna's testimony was a turning point for many in Argentina,
including Moreno Campo's own mother.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
After Adriana Caordi provide testimony for the judges, explaining how
she had she gave birth seated in a in a
police car, Han Cafette.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
My mother.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
The following they called me and say, I still love
General Videla, but you are right. You got to go
up to Jade.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Despite its importance, I only learned about Adriana's testimony this
year when I watched the film Argentina nineteen eighty five.
It's a powerful yet alienating sensation to learn facts about
something so formative that you didn't actually experience, but yet
explain a lot of your situation and circumstance. That reality
(14:25):
that Adidiana and thousands of others lived is what my
family fled from. When I was a teen, I would
fantasize about what it would have been like to grow
up in Argentina. In San Diego, where I did grow up,
the distance between the houses often felt like a metaphor
for the distance between the people I would visit, winos
(14:48):
aires and the chalky white apartment buildings seemed to topple
into each other, like the teens on the street who
were not embarrassed to kiss other teens and adults on
the cheek. Taxi drivers would go off on everything from
the latest political scandal to the merits of transcendental meditation.
I was always amazed how they had a take on everything.
It made me feel at home at La Joya High.
(15:11):
I always felt loud, too opinionated. It was hard for
me to imagine that not too long ago, in Argentina,
the culture was dominated by secrecy. In nineteen seventy six,
when my father was fifteen, his mother told him he
needed to pack a suitcase and that they were going
to leave the country. My dad and his older sister,
(15:34):
my aunt Maririta, thought my grandma was being dramatic, making
too big a deal of the political situation. They didn't
want to leave their friends.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
On the plane.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
My grandma, who liked my grandpa had left leaning political views,
told them that she received death threats, a voice on
the phone saying they were coming to kill her, her husband,
and her children. My grandma took those threats seriously because
she saw what was happening in their social circles. People
she knew were now disappeared. A decade would pass before
(16:11):
my dad and most people in Argentina would understand the
full scope of what had happened during the dictatorship, and
that's thanks to events like the one that's depicted in
Argentina nineteen eighty five, the trial of the Juntas.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Senor requeesis.
Speaker 7 (16:26):
Unia Argentina particular perotabile la consciencia urica universal mean and
commandalo la ulta mission the present lmento telles clamarcuticia.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
When we return, I continue my conversation with prosecutor Luis
Moreno Ocampo and ask why it's important to remember this
part of history.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Now, welcome back to Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa. Here's
(17:37):
Antonia serejuido once again with the rest of the conversation
with Argentine lawyer Luis Moreno Ocampo.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Before we dive back in, here's a clip of Ricardo
larn As Julio Strassera during his closing argument describing how
the actions of the military government were taken without the
consent of Argentine citizens. He describes those acts with three
words fearce, clandestine and cowardly.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
Imperented advice, juando trece de los o mas and nombre
lass armadas to mark equal full reporta logolpe aria supercivai,
(18:29):
Carlo senor quess meat, trips feros clandetina Ecovarde.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
This film, I think is also meant to make a
statement at a certain time. Why do you think this
movie matters right now?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, movies always matter because movies define the memory. Movies
defined the memory, so you had to win the case
in court the memory, he said, bit the miss professor
he had usc he was a refuge at four he
won't a fuller price, And he said, you fight your
(19:15):
wars twice, first in the battlefield, then in the memory.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Did you have awareness of that when you were working
on the trial.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, yes, I remember before when I was doing the mitigation,
I read something that opened my eyes. The story was
about the disagreement between US and DCOM. Was in Paris,
and one day apparently the American general pulled a bottom
(19:50):
of the elevator. The stop opened the door, and inside
alone was a small Bacom general. So suddenly the two
enemies were together in a close place, so the American
general could not stop himself and say, okay, we're making peace.
But you had to recognize that you never never could
(20:12):
defeat us in the battlefield, and a general say, look,
if you want, I can't recognize that, but then you
should recognize that that is irrelevant. Who won in the
battlefield is relevant because we're making peace here. That's the point.
So I found that no, and the and is not
(20:35):
in the movie. The idea to do a case against
the generals was like that the alsen seen as a candidate.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Marino Campo is referring to Raoul Alfonsine, who would go
on to become the first democratically elected president of Argentina
after the last dictatorship period.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
He proposed to to investigate the crimes, and the candidate,
the Parents' Party would was the biggest party, say we
cannot do it because it's an amnesty adopted by the armies.
We cannot investigate the pass and saying no, it's a
self amnesty, it's new, and I think one people both
for him. So that way, I d case is very
(21:17):
unique because it's not just the case. The case was
a piece of a political process proposed by a leader
and supported by the maturity of the community. That's why
the Truth Commission report was very important, and that's why
the trial was so important. And all this happened two
(21:40):
years after the end of the jettoship. That was amazing
because for that in Germany you had cases that happened
eighteen years after the neu metrans were done by the
international judges and prosecutor, so supported by the American, Russian, French, British,
not the Germans. The German did nothing, nothing until fifty
(22:00):
two six three, so because they were afraid to create conflict.
They were afraid of that. So Spain in nineteen seventy
five Franco left power and led a new democracy coming,
but there was an agreement that Franco could not be mitigated.
So the stain and transition to democracy was the model.
(22:24):
Avantsin was against the model and everyone was telling him,
you're wrong, Basy, But that's why the film showed the case.
But the case is just a piece of the more
complex social political activities.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Before you worked on the trial, did you have like
any faith in democracy?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Right, yes, I believe in law, I believe it.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
But did you think it would like sustain.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I don't since say, we had to do the trial
to end fifty years of impunity and Kubida and she
was right. I believe in that, So I believe. Okay,
I believe we should do that.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yeah, one thing is we should do that. But do
you think it would work?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Wait, you working? Now?
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Well that's what I so like. I mean, now, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I worked at at this company that you know, USA,
and the day after Trump was elected, there's a Chile Naw,
there's me. Chile was also under control of a repressive
military dictatorship under Auto Pinochet from nineteen seventy four to
nineteen ninety. One of our coworkers, who was who's from
the US, was like, the two of you are having
(23:36):
a different experience because I think it was like we
come from families that were very much impacted by having
leaders like Trump, and it does feel like there's been
like a shift. There's so many decades of democracy and
now it seems like there's something weird happening, and I'm
just curious what your thoughts are about that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We definitely what what is happening is that the world
is changing in dramatically Internet it's a revolution, and we
lawyers are not adjusting. We are not learning how to
use new technologies to help people. On the contrary, we
(24:16):
are using technology to attack people. Yes, the more on
the contrary because for me, what I learned in my job,
I learned something very basic. How do you treat violent people.
You can treat them as criminals, but they have rights
(24:37):
and you have to respect the rights. Or you can
do them as enemies that could be killed. Argentina in
nineteen sirventy six consider this fight. It's a cold war
fight against communism, but to kill the enemies. I remember
the journal it played to me. They did what they
did to support freedom and democrat See as a general,
(25:02):
you cannot tell me that you torture and kill to
protect freedom and democracy. And he say, prosecutor, those are
our values. They are the enemy. So Argentina and nineteen
seventy six was treating violent people as enemies to kill.
So the army considered as Indian citizens as enemies, abducted them,
(25:28):
tortured them and execute them. In nineteen eighty five or
different will expect the rights of the commanders. They had
the rights and had to put the evidence and some
of them were acquitted, so they have rights. They were
not considered enemies. They were treated as suspects and convicted,
and that is the basic distincsion I see in the
(25:49):
international scenarios. We are still very primitive. They were still
very primitive, and we're still using wars to manage conflict.
So because in the war you can kill the enemy.
And that's why I feel this is teaching between how
to manage violence as criminals or enemies is a key
issue and one of the reasons I like to be
(26:11):
in the cinematic art school and also now involved with this.
From discussion on the movie for the Oscar, I was
trying to understand this industry is because ending wars is
needed if you won't survive. But it's not a legal aspect,
it's a political aspect because starting a war is popular.
(26:33):
People support starting wars. In the US, Wols became popular.
Even today, Iraq war is still valid. The Congress is
not able to stop the authorization to use war in
Iraq even was adopted on the false premises. Obama does
not stop the wars. Putin is more popular today than
(26:54):
before in Russia. So war is a very old mechanism
but is popular because people feel protected and people don't
care about killing outside my people. That's the point, and
that's why we need movies, not just lawyers or trials.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
People are saying that the country has never been more
divided politically, and people don't know how to talk to
each other. And it's interesting to me that even from
the get go, you're like the side of my family
I an agree with, I love them. You've had this
battle on international human rights courts at the dinner table.
How do you think people should talk to their family
(27:38):
members that don't see ida eye with them?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, one of the things I like in the The
Ideentified movie is that Miteri presented very well the conflict
using families. His show a family supporting the legal change,
but a thread that would be a trap, and we'll
go back my family presented in the Army families, families
(28:03):
who believed they were fighting communists and while they're now
they're attacking us, and the victim family is suffering. Now
this woman having a baby in a car contact and
a young kid who was in high school students and
his friend disappeared. So all this information about her family,
(28:23):
So the family is a great way to present the problem,
and I was thinking, Okay, in the US, you got
a trial on January.
Speaker 9 (28:33):
Sixth, substantial evidence showing that the president's December nineteenth tweet
calling his followers to Washington, d C. On January sixth
energized individuals from the Proud Boys and other extremist groups.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
The Old six leaders were convicted, and it's interesting because
the lawyer of them say they jiu was very fair.
So it's great first trial, but it's not discussion on
what happened these people, Why these people mobilize themselves to
do what they did. We're not understanding what's happened here,
(29:15):
so and that why for me, it's not just about
who was breaking glasses or windows in the Congress. It's
about what happened with these people? Why are they acting
the way they're acting? And I think that is something
the movie in a Canadin explore and we need to
keep exploring in the US. In Brazil it's the same.
(29:39):
I'm shocked how similar is generally eight in Brazil with
January six the in Washington it's identical. And then idea
they five. It's a movie who is shedding light on
this issue in a way that you can understand. It's
not the legal thing, it's emotional clear. That's the why
(30:01):
for me, the movie is a great movie but also
producing a social impact. It's amazing because distance in time
and distance in space reduce your moral ability. Now, if
someone is killed ten years ago, okay, someone is killed
in Singapore, Okay, if I'm gonna someone kill the corner
(30:22):
of houses different And this movie helped us to cross
time because my youngest kid now learn about what happened
to the movie. For me, one of the most interesting
things happening is all the high school stud and then
I watching the movie. Now that's amazing. The new generation
learn what happened, and it's important because for them, democrats
(30:42):
was normal. Now learning it's normal that it does to
fight for it and keep improving.
Speaker 7 (30:49):
Seniors, he express some pretension the originally that but as
a relitor, a pretendency for Tensa a total Pueblo Orgentino.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Senor oasis non comas. As a movie is crossing borders
because democracy is under fire everywhere. So the movie became
important in Brazil, in Spain, in the US. The movie
(31:27):
is crossing borders, are reaching many people.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Has there been any particular moment in the impact that
stood out to you one screening that you remember so far.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Well, the first cleaning was more important because I was
alone in the big cinema.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Did you cry?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
No, No, I don't cry.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
No, you're giving me the impression that you don't cry
a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, I never cry during the investigation, the junta never.
But when I was I went two weeks break before
the trial started. He started, and in those days I
went to see official story.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
He's referring to the movie that was the first Argentine
film to win an Academy Award, that one that I
watched when I was twelve.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So the movie was nothing, nothing brutal, nothing comparable that
I knew, and I was crying on the movie when
I took about this issues. Did my job protect my
emotions when I was watching the movie? That movie with
no correction with me was more impacting. I liked to learn.
So I use I was involved in awful things in
(32:37):
mitigations of Gene sign that fool afy killings, that what
happened to Gan? That was Joseph Corney. So I was
involved in many, many conflicts in the world. But I
tried to learn why is happening. No, it's similarly like
my I liked to under some my deue bantl Booby. Yes,
I liked on to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
It's very interesting to me that love was more than
just a career for Morino Campo. It was a way
that he could process his family's history. Watching movies like
Lectoria Officiad and Argentina nineteen eighty five have helped me
process my family history. My dad always said that he
(33:22):
was in exile, and I understood that my grandparents lived
in Mexico City because they had to leave Argentina. But
I didn't actually know what happened until I saw Dictorioficiad
when I was like twelve on my own volition.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
I like took it out from the library because I
was curious, and I was so mad at my dad.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I was like, why didn't you tell me any of this?
And he was like, because you don't have to carry
that like that was the worst experience of my life.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And it's a difficult dialogue. No, for probably that's what
happened to you happened many family It's different for them
to talking about what's happened to them. It's very painful, very.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Painful Honestly, between this film and in Mumbia, I've like
never been prouder to be Argentinian.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
I'm like really feeling that it's our year.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, it's funny Argentina. Okay, we got messy, but the
team was a team.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Normally I'm not good in teams. We have messys, but
no teams. This time we have a team supporting messy
as different.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
In last week's Oscars, Argentina was defeated sort of ironically
by its arch rival on the soccer field, Germany, which
competed with an epic film set during World War One.
All quiet on the Western Front. But I'm left feeling
hopeful because it took many years of losing to the
German team before we won the World Cup again. So
I'm expecting another Oscars matchup between the two countries sometime soon.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
No, thank you for inviting me to conversation.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
As I left at the door, Moreno Campo told me
to not be too hard on my dad and to
send his regards to my parents. It's clearer now that
it was an act of love for my dad to
not tell me about this upsetting history. And it is
my active love for him to continue to seek it out.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
This episode was produced by Antoniejiro. It was edited by
Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Stephanie Lebau and
Julia Caruso. The Latino USA team includes Daisy Contreras, Mike Sargent,
Marta Martinez, Victoria Estrada, Brenardo Leos Junior, and Patrice Sulbera,
with help from Raoul Berez. Our editorial director is Fernanda Santos.
(36:04):
Our associate engineers are Gabriel Lebiaz and Jjkrubin. Our marketing
manager is Reis Luna. Our New York Women's Foundation fellow
is Elizabeth Loento Torres. Our theme music was composed by
Zanguel Luinos. I'm your host and executive producer Marino Hosa.
Join us again on our next episode and in the meantime,
look for us on social media and remember no te
(36:25):
vayes unca coe.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
Latino USA is made possible in part by the Ford Foundation,
working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide,
The Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
More at hsfoundation dot org and the John D. And
Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation,
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