March 16, 2025 • 29 mins
In the news this week: We discuss Salvadoran president Nayib Bukele’s unprecedented and controversial offer: to jail U.S. citizens in El Salvador.
Maria Hinojosa sits down with journalists Roman Gressier, editor of El Faro English and host of the podcast “Central America in Minutes,” and Lilia Luciano, CBS News correspondent, to discuss Bukele’s attempts to ally with Trump and the parallels between the two administrations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Back when I was in college. El Salvador was the
leading news story on TV every single night.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The crackling sound of gunfire began at mid afternoon in
this slum neighborhood just outside El Salvador's capital. Government troops
had swarmed over the area, searching anyone who looked suspicious.
The soldiers said rebel guerrillas were firing at them from
a ravine one hundred yards away.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It was the early nineteen eighties and the farabun No
Marti National Liberation Front, a gorilla group also known as
the FMLN, led an insurrection against the corrupt and repressive
Salvadoran government. The result a decade long civil war in
the country.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
This is typical of what's happening through out El Salvador today,
with the army moving in on positions the gorillas captured
during their offensive.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
When the war ended in nineteen ninety two, more than
seventy five one thousand people had been killed, many of
them civilians and mostly at the hands of the Salvadoran government.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
The army here waits for no excuses from people out
after the curfew falls.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
They shoot first.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And here's the thing, dear listener, The United States played
a big role in.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
All of this.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yes, the United States supported the repressive Salvadoran government's fight
against the fml N with millions of dollars in funding
and in weapons.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
More helicopters start to lift off out of the bush.
Mounted on the side of the craft their US supply
M six machine guns, with which the army launches its
surprise aerial bombardments.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Eventually, the UN broker a peace deal and the FMLN
went from a gorilla group to a political party, and
since then, the liberal fml N party and the conservative
at Inna party had actually alternated holding power in ensa
Vador until twenty nineteen. That's when a young anti establishment
(02:02):
presidential candidate won the election against the Momentos complain Nai
Bukele campaign on ending gang violence in Salvador and promised
to become a closer ally of the United States. And
(02:24):
since then he's enacted a state of emergency in his
country that has suspended all constitutional rights. His government has
imprisoned tens of thousands of people in a highly controversial megaprison.
His mano dura, or hardhand approach to cracking down on
crime and violence, has earned him praise from President Donald
(02:47):
Trump and the MAGA Circle.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love you too.
I love you too. Buke got a rock star.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Welcome at last year's Conservative Political Action Conference also known
as SEAPAC, which was held in the United States and
now the Salvadoran president has made an unprecedented offer to
imprison American citizens in El Salvador. From Utro Media and PRX,
(03:23):
it's Latino USA. I'm Maria Ino JSA today the growing
cozy relationship between the United States and El Salvador. Today,
I'm joined by two journalists who have been covering Central
America and Salvadoran president. Naib Bukele Roman Grecier is the
(03:47):
editor of the newsportal Elfarro English. He's host of the
podcast Central America and Minutes, and also joining us is
Lelia Luciano. She's a CBS News twenty four to seven
anchor and a correspondent at the network. Welcome to the
both of you, to let you know, USA.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Thanks for having me, a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Thank you so much money.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So Donald Trump has made mass deportation a focal point
of his campaign. He's made it the central part of
his first two months in office, and certainly in a
performative way. Part of his administration strategy relies actually on
convincing Latin American countries, particularly in Central America, to receive
migrants and people deported. Right Panama, Costa Rica, Latemala, they
(04:29):
have all agreed to take deportees, even in fact from
countries other than their own. But in terms of Salvadord
and It's President Naibukile, they agreed to not only jail
deportees of any nationality, but Bukeli took it a step further.
He said he would be prepared to take in American
citizens convicted of violent crime. It is a major step
(04:54):
in a very particular direction. So let's start with you Roman,
you cover Central America, based in the region. What do
you make of this?
Speaker 7 (05:02):
I think that you're right. It is extraordinary, and that
when Marco Rubio came to Central America, it was his
first international trip, trying to send a message that the
Latin American region in general was going to be.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
A priority for their policy.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Bukele wanted to offer something big, So when Rubio came
to El Salvador, they did make this grand announcement that
El Salvador had offered to receive US citizens and incarcerate
them in El Salvador. You know, part of it was
rhetorical in the sense that it's probably legally impossible for
him to send US citizens to be incarcerated in El Salvador.
(05:35):
But on the other hand, in a very concrete way,
they were resuming the migration cooperation that dated back to
Trump's first term.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So, Lelia, you like me, are a little bit obsessed
with Central America and in particular El Salvador. You've been
following the president for quite a while, so what's your
take of this move on the part of Bukilli.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
Well, Madia, as you also know, I've been covering the
border for many, many years, and I do member that
for a long time I used to hear the stories
of Salvadorans who were terrorized by the gangs, and then
the numbers started coming down. What I think Neyabuka has
been doing is implementing a model for others to follow,
(06:16):
and he has been celebrated in the Republican Party seepack
at so many levels for his policies and because of
this crackdown.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I could not have imagined that someone like Bugle would
end up in leadership. But then it makes sense Roman.
I mean, he's super young. He likes to portray himself
as super high tech. He did run a very controversial
re election campaign last year, so can you talk about
that and on his whole obsession with Mano Dura the
hard Hand in terms of cracking down on gangs and
(06:49):
violence and why he does make sense in terms of
this long, tortured, often violent history in El Salvador.
Speaker 7 (06:56):
It's really interesting because we were talking just a few
minutes ago about whether or not this security prison cooperation
is extraordinary, and I think it is, but it's not
unprecedented in the sense that across Central America the prison
population has swelled in recent decades. I suspect there is
a degree of US cooperation that has played into that.
(07:16):
And even starting in two thousand and nine, when the
former guerrilla party, the FMLN, took power, there was an
increasing militarization of public safety in the National Civil Police.
That trend line has certainly continued to this day to
where the police and the military operate hand in hand
under the state of exception. For a bit of context,
Naibukele came out of the ranks of the FMLN that's
(07:39):
how he came up in politics. He was first mayor
of Nuevo kus Katlan, which is essentially a smaller town
outside of San Salvador. In twenty fifteen, he took the
mayor's office of the Capitol, and by that time he
was profiling himself as a front runner for the twenty
nineteen election. He broke with the FMLN shortly after that
and positioned himself as kind of this third way candidate
from the traditional left and right. And he always had
(08:01):
this kind of eccentric, charismatic personality, and I think there
was an appetite for a fresh face who could speak
to new social media audiences. So in twenty nineteen he
was elected, and it was a watershed moment certainly in
the history of the country because he took the presidency
with the minority party Nuevas Ideas or New Ideas.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Bukell is a publicist.
Speaker 7 (08:24):
By vocation, so he really wanted to position that idea
of new, new, new social media narrative and he was
very successful at doing that. And so the constitution has
at least six explicit prohibitions on immediate presidential reelection. Those
bands were so explicit that Bukele himself acknowledged it multiple times,
(08:44):
but in February twenty twenty and February ninth, which has
become this infamous date in Salvador and discourse since then,
he kind of burst into the legislative chamber flanked by
soldiers with you know, long weapons, and demanded that they
approve as a security package loan that he had not
provided details for in terms of what he was going
to use the money for. So legislative auditors, which he
(09:07):
didn't control the legislature at the time, were asking for details,
and he basically said that God told me to have patients,
so I won't dissolve the assembly today, And that was
the first alarm belt.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But then you start to see some of the real
life consequences of his administration and what he has come
to stand for. So, Lilia, you did end up going
to this mega prison in San Salvador in the capitol.
This is the place where potentially American citizens who are
criminals could be held. It's a prison that is notorious
(09:49):
for human rights violations. So, as a seasoned journalist, what
did you take away from the experience of being inside
this mega prison?
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Madeo one of the first things that I spoke to
camera as I was walking into SICOT and seeing the
prisoners was precisely about the message. The official name of
this place is the Center for the Confinement of Terrorism
Inmates Colleage by its acronym SICOT. I've been asking for
(10:19):
over a year and a half for access into this place,
and this is the first time we're getting in.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
These are the most violent criminals in the country. We
saw cells with anywhere between eighty to one hundred men
crammed inside. We are not allowed to interact, to speak
to any other prisoners.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
They are all staring at us.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
It's so striking to see them. I think that, as
Roman mentioned, it's clear that Naibukele is a professional marketer.
He's a publicist. He has been recognized by I think
many experts for how his this brand has been built,
(11:01):
and I think the pinnacle of his brand in the
hemisphere is this prison.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Coming up on Latino usay Lilia tells us more about
what she saw when she visited Bukel's mega prison. We
also get into the parallels between the right wing movements
in El Salvador and those in the United States. Stay
with us, Yes, Hey, We're back with our conversation on
(11:43):
the long ties between the US and El Salvador. We're
joined by journalists Roman Grecier and Lilia Luciano. Here's Lilia
again on her visit to El Salvador's infamous Mega prison.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
When I walked in, I I thought, these are the
images that he wants to send. It's obviously why I'm
in there, why they approve for me to go in,
because they clearly wanted to show the ciquote from within
to the US. And this happened after this deal with
the US was announced, after this agreement that and Salvador
would take deportees. One of the moments that really stayed
(12:20):
with me was when they did a search of the
cells and just for context, there are around one hundred
prisoners inside each cell. They sleep on not cots but
metal slabs. There's no sheets or mattresses or anything. They
all have their heads shaved. I asked, you know whether
(12:42):
this was in the effort of dehumanizing them, and they
said that, of course. The thing that sets them apart
is the gang tattoos that show that they belonged to
one gang or another. And they said, well, we want
to take away whatever their sense of individuality would be,
so it felt performativeform this search of a cell. But
being in there, I started also asking, so why is
(13:06):
this place different besides all of the messaging that comes
in those images. They said, well, they will never leave here.
They are here for life. And I said, well, you know,
but there's people here who are not convicted. And the
director of the prison told me yeah, but they're never.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Going to leap.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
And I said, well, wow, if you're not convicted, they
could probably make a case to come out, and he
said no, no, this is the worst of the worst.
The Minister of Security explained to me that the way
they built this system and the state of Exception is
with the goal of controlling what they call the phenomenon
that happens throughout Latin America throughout the world. That street
(13:44):
gangs would be controlled from the prisons. He said, the
only way to do that is to suffocate any kind
of communication. So prisoners, not just in Schod but outside,
do not get to see family members. The prisoners who
are in Sidchod don't go to hearings, They only attend
or communications with their attorneys via zoom. But I asked,
(14:04):
what's the point if you're saying they're never going to
leave here. What kind of case are they making? And
the director of the prisons, you know, just insisted that
they're never going to leave. And to that point, I
also had the opportunity to talk to the Minister of Defense.
There was a phrase that stayed with me, which is,
in the past, we had to wait for people to
commit a crime to arrest them. Now we just detain
(14:28):
them for suspicion. And that's the whole thing about the
state of exception that they have implemented, is they detain
people for suspicion of belonging to gangs. And that's how
you have eighty thousand people or more without a real
day in court. People are not charged for their individual crimes.
They are charged for the crimes of the entire game.
(14:49):
So it's these mass hearings and about eight thousand, according
to the Minister of Security, have been released. He told
me out of a four thousand.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
See, the thing is is that, you know, you begin
to imagine that is the United States that far off
right when you talk about Donald Trump's administration, where the
carceral state and detaining and deporting is just kind of
the solution to it all. Again, Manodura hard hand. So
(15:24):
Secretary of State Marco Rubio traveled to Central American countries
in early February in order to get the governments to
agree to take back the deportees. He in fact said, well,
Bukel is offered to take American born American citizen people
behind bars, would probably face extraordinary legal challenges. But when
we get into questions like the state of exception right
(15:46):
where now do process is suspended, anything can happen. So
what do you think, Robant in terms of how much
is this being actually pushed at this point by Bukele
And do you think that it can move further or
is it just going to stay in the kind to
performative state.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
I think that won't happen. I think it's performative and
meant to send a message of intense US cooperation at
a time when he's been pretty aggressively courting the Magas
base for at least a couple of years. I believe
the first time he appeared on Tucker Carlson's show when
he was still at Fox News was perhaps three years,
(16:22):
if not longer ago.
Speaker 8 (16:23):
You're not exporting products for service if you're exporting people,
So when you keep this. Countries depending on that, the
economy is like a vicious cycle. So it's bad for
the United States because immigration will go up, and it's
bad for our countries because people leaving the country will
go up as well. So it's bad for both of us.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Smart Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
And he's appeared several times, had Trump Junior at his inauguration,
along with a whole cast of characters from the Mega Orbit.
And I do think that it was meant to send
a signal of intense cooperation. Anything is on the table
if it's about migration and solidifying a relationship with Trump.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Maria, I'm going to jump in because I sat with
the spokesperson from DHS and I asked about specifically how
they're carrying out the deportations. They told me they have
deported so far since Trump came into office, more than
fifty thousand people. They call those people the worst of
the worst. Then the assumption is we are sending people
with criminal records, gang members, etc. Bugin's offer was don't
(17:31):
just release them into the continent. We want to imprison
them here and say, oh.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
That has not happened.
Speaker 6 (17:35):
And I asked DHS, Hey, what's the status of this
deal with Buchina. The Trump administration is saying, we are
already deporting the worst of the worst. And we know
that people went to Guantanamo, one hundred and seventy seven
of them were Venezuelan and they were sent to Venezuela.
And I asked about Venezuela and they told me, well, basically,
that's not our business. You know, we can't handle the
(17:58):
policy in other country, whether it's El Salvador or Venezula.
But from what DHS tells me is the deal with
bu of sending people there, sending deportees with criminal records
to El Salvador.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Has not happened.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
So I do question why is in El Salvador taking
already Trump is calling the worst of the worst?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right, So that leads us to this very interesting fascination
that members of Donald Trump's followers his administration maga people
who actually seem to like Boukele a lot right. So Roman,
let's talk for a moment about the parallels between these
(18:41):
right wing movements in the United States and Bukele, who
started from the left but has become clearly right wing.
What are the parallels between these two movements in the
United States and L Salvador.
Speaker 7 (18:52):
I think they're part of a global network of ideologically
aligned parties. You know, you could tie them to Victor
Orbah and others on international scale. They share it in
anti globalism quote unquote discourse, deep hostility toward critical civil
society organizations and press freedom. And you know those are
(19:14):
all trends in Al Savador from a number of years ago.
We can point to the hostilities towards civil society organizations
in Al Savador, not just the press, human rights monitors.
And I think that that connects to Bukelis, the way
that Bukele casts any dissident voice as part of the
quote unquote political opposition, and that does I feel neatly
(19:34):
align with some of the mega currents and discourse. You know,
at Seapac last year in twenty twenty four, he said famously.
Speaker 8 (19:39):
They say global listen comes to die at Seapack. I'm
here to tell you that in alsabad Or.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
It's all right that.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It seems like the Trump administration looks to El Salvador
and it says, huh, the Bugeli administration has completely limited
access of journalists. Can you talk really about the parallels
that you see begin, the Trump administration kind of looking
to us of it and saying, Hi, if they did that,
well maybe we can too.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Buken is not the only leader that is presenting models
that the Trump administration might want to emulate or center
in their discourse. But I do think that it might
be a symbiotic thing because I think Bukele does act
like Trump, and this is the second Trump term, and
(20:29):
I think that you might be right that they might
be looking at the Bukena model. I mean, we know
that Buela likes to speak in press conferences and select
the journalists he talks to. But we are seeing how
the White House is not wanting the you know, the
White House Correspondence Association to basically run how things play
out an independent organization, and they're changing the rules. So
(20:51):
you're right that a lot of what is playing out
in the US has happened already in places like El Salvador.
There's definitely a paying attention and we have seen many
members of Congress go down there take note. He's trying
to attract. That's the other thing that Bukela has expressed
that they're doing, and that his administration is trying to
promote as other governments in the region. Is attract investment
(21:14):
from US and know other countries.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Right, I mean I was very surprised, you know, suddenly
I start seeing these like come retire to El Salvador,
the safest place you can imagine, because there's a massive
prison system. So Roman you were Outlet Elfao was accused
by the Bukele administration of money laundering. The administration has
forced many journalists into exile. You yourself were expelled from Il
(21:39):
Salvado because of your work as a journalist in twenty
twenty one. So I'm wondering if you can talk about
the context and what your sense is as you're watching
this all play out, because it does feel like there
are these parallels between again El Salvador and the United States.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:54):
I would add about Ilfado that in April twenty twenty three,
the outlet administratively exiled its legal inscription to Costa Rica
and that was a result of the phony money laundering
and tax evasion accusations levied by the Bukeli administration against
the newsroom. Now, in my individual case, yes, I had
my residency denied in twenty twenty one, and I was
(22:16):
de facto expelled from the country, although I had preemptively
gotten on a bus to avoid them showing up and
forcefully removing me. So about let's see three years ago now,
we denounced that about two thirds of the entire newsroom
were surveiled, including myself, were surveilled using Pegasus spyware between
(22:37):
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Pegasus, for those who
don't know, is a spy were developed in Israel and
approved by the Israeli Ministry of Defense and sold only
to governments. And since then, we've actually launched a case
in California which is currently on appeal. We're appealing because
of a dismissal. The judge had ruled that it was
a foreign issue and he wrote that he didn't want
(22:58):
to burden a US jury with it, even though I mean,
we could say that has very broad implications for the
US and for the whole world. But on the other hand, I,
in particular, I am a US citizen and that wasn't taken
into account in the rolling. So we'll see what happens
on appeal in the next coming months. But in Broaderil Salvador,
in the same investigation that revealed the surveillance against Ilfado
there were around thirty five cases revealed by the Citizen
(23:18):
Lab at the University of Toronto, and these covered multiple newsrooms, columnists,
critical civil society organizations, human rights organizations, legal monitors, etc.
And on the other hand, there has been just an
absolute shuddering of public information. The government does very carefully
curate any and all media access it is granted in
(23:40):
the country, and I could say with probably ninety nine
percent certainty that no salvador And journalist has accessed sikled
the Center for Confinement of Terrorists, for example. And when
there is access to the press, it's usually to US
or foreign media or influencers, YouTubers and its lights, camera,
police action, as the old saying goes.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
So everything is very carefully curated.
Speaker 7 (24:01):
Though I would say that it's interesting that the Security
Minister Gusta Wobietro told Lilia that people are being tried
not for their individual crimes, which is a reflection of
reporting that we and other outlets have been doing for
a number of years, but that he distilled it that
clearly is striking.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So Lilia, just to wrap up, you know, in the
first Trump administration, really the focus was on Mexico Mexico, Mexico, Mexico, Mexico.
You now have a situation where Donald Trump is dealing regionally, right,
and these different partnerships are coming up. But we also
know that Donald Trump is a very unpredictable leader, which
(24:40):
means that all of these alliances can also be precarious. Right,
So what do you think. Just give us your long
term understanding of what you think is going to happen
again as this tiny, the smallest country in all of
Central America begins to have a much more massive presence
in the national dialogue and in kind of zeitgeist of
(25:01):
Donald Trump's and Elon Musk's mind of what's possible.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
You know, Marie, I thought that one of the most
effective policies that we have seen from politicians in the
US in many years was the bussing of migrants to
cities that were run by democratic mayors or states with
democratic governors, basically saying, you deal with the issue. I
think this moment is also sending the same message. I
(25:28):
think there's a parallel there with Trump saying to countries
in the region, you deal with the issue, and whether
it's tariff threats for threats to sovereignty like in the
case of the Panama Canal, it's forcing the arm of
countries in the region to deal with it. It's two
things that Trump wants. He wants to show that he's
this strong man who is forcing countries to do what
(25:51):
he wants, and at the same time, he wants to
show the images of we are deporting as many people
as we can. So I think for the Trump and
administration it's kind of a win win, Whereas for the
Biden administration, it was said, you know that we would cooperate,
and there were initiatives in the region, like in Panama
and in Guatemala, to deal with the issue of migration,
(26:13):
but it was neither visible nor I think very effective,
given when you look at the numbers. So you know,
we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know where
this is all going to end up. But I think
from my experience covering so many countries in the region
is when people have opportunities where they are, people don't
just want to move their families and their lives. So
(26:36):
whether it's investment or opening up and providing the assistance
you can for democratic governance to flourish in the region,
that's how you handle the problem, and what we are
seeing is around the world is not a support for
democratic governance.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
All right, So, Roman, long term, how you see this
relationship between the United States and El Salvador.
Speaker 7 (27:02):
I think it was clear from about two years ago
that the broad policy of US support for l Salvador
and for Bukele has been largely bipartisan issue, even if
they differ on certain points or if the Biden administration
disagrees with certain things in private. The Biden administration decided
to no longer criticize immediate presidential reelection, and the Trump
(27:27):
administration has certainly continued the broad strokes of cooperation. So
I don't see any indication that their support for Al
Salvador would waiver.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Roman Gracier and Lilia Luciano, thank you so much for
joining me and let you know USA, and for giving us,
you know, all of the context and information that we
need to know as we look to the future of
what might happen between the United States and El Salvador.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (27:52):
Thank you, Madia.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Thanks it was great to be here.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
This episode was produced by Nur Saudi and edited by
Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Lea Shaw Demro.
The Latino USA team also includes Roxanna Guire, Julie Caruso,
Felicia do Minez, Fernando Chavari, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Dominiquinestrosa,
Renaldo Lenos Junior, Stephanie in the Boat, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez,
(28:26):
JJ Crubin, Dasha Sandoval and Nancy Trujillo, Penille Ramirez, Marlon Bishop,
Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers and I'm
your host, Marino Rossa. Join us again on our next episode.
In the meantime, look for us on all of our
social media. I'll see you on Instagram. E nontevayes Cjao.
Speaker 6 (28:48):
Latino USA is made possible in part by California Endowment,
building a strong state by improving the health of all Californians.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
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Speaker 6 (29:00):
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and the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front
lines of social change worldwide.
Back when I was in college. El Salvador was the
leading news story on TV every single night.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The crackling sound of gunfire began at mid afternoon in
this slum neighborhood just outside El Salvador's capital. Government troops
had swarmed over the area, searching anyone who looked suspicious.
The soldiers said rebel guerrillas were firing at them from
a ravine one hundred yards away.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It was the early nineteen eighties and the farabun No
Marti National Liberation Front, a gorilla group also known as
the FMLN, led an insurrection against the corrupt and repressive
Salvadoran government. The result a decade long civil war in
the country.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
This is typical of what's happening through out El Salvador today,
with the army moving in on positions the gorillas captured
during their offensive.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
When the war ended in nineteen ninety two, more than
seventy five one thousand people had been killed, many of
them civilians and mostly at the hands of the Salvadoran government.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
The army here waits for no excuses from people out
after the curfew falls.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
They shoot first.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And here's the thing, dear listener, The United States played
a big role in.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
All of this.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yes, the United States supported the repressive Salvadoran government's fight
against the fml N with millions of dollars in funding
and in weapons.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
More helicopters start to lift off out of the bush.
Mounted on the side of the craft their US supply
M six machine guns, with which the army launches its
surprise aerial bombardments.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Eventually, the UN broker a peace deal and the FMLN
went from a gorilla group to a political party, and
since then, the liberal fml N party and the conservative
at Inna party had actually alternated holding power in ensa
Vador until twenty nineteen. That's when a young anti establishment
(02:02):
presidential candidate won the election against the Momentos complain Nai
Bukele campaign on ending gang violence in Salvador and promised
to become a closer ally of the United States. And
(02:24):
since then he's enacted a state of emergency in his
country that has suspended all constitutional rights. His government has
imprisoned tens of thousands of people in a highly controversial megaprison.
His mano dura, or hardhand approach to cracking down on
crime and violence, has earned him praise from President Donald
(02:47):
Trump and the MAGA Circle.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love you too.
I love you too. Buke got a rock star.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Welcome at last year's Conservative Political Action Conference also known
as SEAPAC, which was held in the United States and
now the Salvadoran president has made an unprecedented offer to
imprison American citizens in El Salvador. From Utro Media and PRX,
(03:23):
it's Latino USA. I'm Maria Ino JSA today the growing
cozy relationship between the United States and El Salvador. Today,
I'm joined by two journalists who have been covering Central
America and Salvadoran president. Naib Bukele Roman Grecier is the
(03:47):
editor of the newsportal Elfarro English. He's host of the
podcast Central America and Minutes, and also joining us is
Lelia Luciano. She's a CBS News twenty four to seven
anchor and a correspondent at the network. Welcome to the
both of you, to let you know, USA.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Thanks for having me, a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Thank you so much money.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So Donald Trump has made mass deportation a focal point
of his campaign. He's made it the central part of
his first two months in office, and certainly in a
performative way. Part of his administration strategy relies actually on
convincing Latin American countries, particularly in Central America, to receive
migrants and people deported. Right Panama, Costa Rica, Latemala, they
(04:29):
have all agreed to take deportees, even in fact from
countries other than their own. But in terms of Salvadord
and It's President Naibukile, they agreed to not only jail
deportees of any nationality, but Bukeli took it a step further.
He said he would be prepared to take in American
citizens convicted of violent crime. It is a major step
(04:54):
in a very particular direction. So let's start with you Roman,
you cover Central America, based in the region. What do
you make of this?
Speaker 7 (05:02):
I think that you're right. It is extraordinary, and that
when Marco Rubio came to Central America, it was his
first international trip, trying to send a message that the
Latin American region in general was going to be.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
A priority for their policy.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Bukele wanted to offer something big, So when Rubio came
to El Salvador, they did make this grand announcement that
El Salvador had offered to receive US citizens and incarcerate
them in El Salvador. You know, part of it was
rhetorical in the sense that it's probably legally impossible for
him to send US citizens to be incarcerated in El Salvador.
(05:35):
But on the other hand, in a very concrete way,
they were resuming the migration cooperation that dated back to
Trump's first term.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So, Lelia, you like me, are a little bit obsessed
with Central America and in particular El Salvador. You've been
following the president for quite a while, so what's your
take of this move on the part of Bukilli.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
Well, Madia, as you also know, I've been covering the
border for many, many years, and I do member that
for a long time I used to hear the stories
of Salvadorans who were terrorized by the gangs, and then
the numbers started coming down. What I think Neyabuka has
been doing is implementing a model for others to follow,
(06:16):
and he has been celebrated in the Republican Party seepack
at so many levels for his policies and because of
this crackdown.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I could not have imagined that someone like Bugle would
end up in leadership. But then it makes sense Roman.
I mean, he's super young. He likes to portray himself
as super high tech. He did run a very controversial
re election campaign last year, so can you talk about
that and on his whole obsession with Mano Dura the
hard Hand in terms of cracking down on gangs and
(06:49):
violence and why he does make sense in terms of
this long, tortured, often violent history in El Salvador.
Speaker 7 (06:56):
It's really interesting because we were talking just a few
minutes ago about whether or not this security prison cooperation
is extraordinary, and I think it is, but it's not
unprecedented in the sense that across Central America the prison
population has swelled in recent decades. I suspect there is
a degree of US cooperation that has played into that.
(07:16):
And even starting in two thousand and nine, when the
former guerrilla party, the FMLN, took power, there was an
increasing militarization of public safety in the National Civil Police.
That trend line has certainly continued to this day to
where the police and the military operate hand in hand
under the state of exception. For a bit of context,
Naibukele came out of the ranks of the FMLN that's
(07:39):
how he came up in politics. He was first mayor
of Nuevo kus Katlan, which is essentially a smaller town
outside of San Salvador. In twenty fifteen, he took the
mayor's office of the Capitol, and by that time he
was profiling himself as a front runner for the twenty
nineteen election. He broke with the FMLN shortly after that
and positioned himself as kind of this third way candidate
from the traditional left and right. And he always had
(08:01):
this kind of eccentric, charismatic personality, and I think there
was an appetite for a fresh face who could speak
to new social media audiences. So in twenty nineteen he
was elected, and it was a watershed moment certainly in
the history of the country because he took the presidency
with the minority party Nuevas Ideas or New Ideas.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Bukell is a publicist.
Speaker 7 (08:24):
By vocation, so he really wanted to position that idea
of new, new, new social media narrative and he was
very successful at doing that. And so the constitution has
at least six explicit prohibitions on immediate presidential reelection. Those
bands were so explicit that Bukele himself acknowledged it multiple times,
(08:44):
but in February twenty twenty and February ninth, which has
become this infamous date in Salvador and discourse since then,
he kind of burst into the legislative chamber flanked by
soldiers with you know, long weapons, and demanded that they
approve as a security package loan that he had not
provided details for in terms of what he was going
to use the money for. So legislative auditors, which he
(09:07):
didn't control the legislature at the time, were asking for details,
and he basically said that God told me to have patients,
so I won't dissolve the assembly today, And that was
the first alarm belt.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But then you start to see some of the real
life consequences of his administration and what he has come
to stand for. So, Lilia, you did end up going
to this mega prison in San Salvador in the capitol.
This is the place where potentially American citizens who are
criminals could be held. It's a prison that is notorious
(09:49):
for human rights violations. So, as a seasoned journalist, what
did you take away from the experience of being inside
this mega prison?
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Madeo one of the first things that I spoke to
camera as I was walking into SICOT and seeing the
prisoners was precisely about the message. The official name of
this place is the Center for the Confinement of Terrorism
Inmates Colleage by its acronym SICOT. I've been asking for
(10:19):
over a year and a half for access into this place,
and this is the first time we're getting in.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
These are the most violent criminals in the country. We
saw cells with anywhere between eighty to one hundred men
crammed inside. We are not allowed to interact, to speak
to any other prisoners.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
They are all staring at us.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
It's so striking to see them. I think that, as
Roman mentioned, it's clear that Naibukele is a professional marketer.
He's a publicist. He has been recognized by I think
many experts for how his this brand has been built,
(11:01):
and I think the pinnacle of his brand in the
hemisphere is this prison.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Coming up on Latino usay Lilia tells us more about
what she saw when she visited Bukel's mega prison. We
also get into the parallels between the right wing movements
in El Salvador and those in the United States. Stay
with us, Yes, Hey, We're back with our conversation on
(11:43):
the long ties between the US and El Salvador. We're
joined by journalists Roman Grecier and Lilia Luciano. Here's Lilia
again on her visit to El Salvador's infamous Mega prison.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
When I walked in, I I thought, these are the
images that he wants to send. It's obviously why I'm
in there, why they approve for me to go in,
because they clearly wanted to show the ciquote from within
to the US. And this happened after this deal with
the US was announced, after this agreement that and Salvador
would take deportees. One of the moments that really stayed
(12:20):
with me was when they did a search of the
cells and just for context, there are around one hundred
prisoners inside each cell. They sleep on not cots but
metal slabs. There's no sheets or mattresses or anything. They
all have their heads shaved. I asked, you know whether
(12:42):
this was in the effort of dehumanizing them, and they
said that, of course. The thing that sets them apart
is the gang tattoos that show that they belonged to
one gang or another. And they said, well, we want
to take away whatever their sense of individuality would be,
so it felt performativeform this search of a cell. But
being in there, I started also asking, so why is
(13:06):
this place different besides all of the messaging that comes
in those images. They said, well, they will never leave here.
They are here for life. And I said, well, you know,
but there's people here who are not convicted. And the
director of the prison told me yeah, but they're never.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Going to leap.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
And I said, well, wow, if you're not convicted, they
could probably make a case to come out, and he
said no, no, this is the worst of the worst.
The Minister of Security explained to me that the way
they built this system and the state of Exception is
with the goal of controlling what they call the phenomenon
that happens throughout Latin America throughout the world. That street
(13:44):
gangs would be controlled from the prisons. He said, the
only way to do that is to suffocate any kind
of communication. So prisoners, not just in Schod but outside,
do not get to see family members. The prisoners who
are in Sidchod don't go to hearings, They only attend
or communications with their attorneys via zoom. But I asked,
(14:04):
what's the point if you're saying they're never going to
leave here. What kind of case are they making? And
the director of the prisons, you know, just insisted that
they're never going to leave. And to that point, I
also had the opportunity to talk to the Minister of Defense.
There was a phrase that stayed with me, which is,
in the past, we had to wait for people to
commit a crime to arrest them. Now we just detain
(14:28):
them for suspicion. And that's the whole thing about the
state of exception that they have implemented, is they detain
people for suspicion of belonging to gangs. And that's how
you have eighty thousand people or more without a real
day in court. People are not charged for their individual crimes.
They are charged for the crimes of the entire game.
(14:49):
So it's these mass hearings and about eight thousand, according
to the Minister of Security, have been released. He told
me out of a four thousand.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
See, the thing is is that, you know, you begin
to imagine that is the United States that far off
right when you talk about Donald Trump's administration, where the
carceral state and detaining and deporting is just kind of
the solution to it all. Again, Manodura hard hand. So
(15:24):
Secretary of State Marco Rubio traveled to Central American countries
in early February in order to get the governments to
agree to take back the deportees. He in fact said, well,
Bukel is offered to take American born American citizen people
behind bars, would probably face extraordinary legal challenges. But when
we get into questions like the state of exception right
(15:46):
where now do process is suspended, anything can happen. So
what do you think, Robant in terms of how much
is this being actually pushed at this point by Bukele
And do you think that it can move further or
is it just going to stay in the kind to
performative state.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
I think that won't happen. I think it's performative and
meant to send a message of intense US cooperation at
a time when he's been pretty aggressively courting the Magas
base for at least a couple of years. I believe
the first time he appeared on Tucker Carlson's show when
he was still at Fox News was perhaps three years,
(16:22):
if not longer ago.
Speaker 8 (16:23):
You're not exporting products for service if you're exporting people,
So when you keep this. Countries depending on that, the
economy is like a vicious cycle. So it's bad for
the United States because immigration will go up, and it's
bad for our countries because people leaving the country will
go up as well. So it's bad for both of us.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Smart Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
And he's appeared several times, had Trump Junior at his inauguration,
along with a whole cast of characters from the Mega Orbit.
And I do think that it was meant to send
a signal of intense cooperation. Anything is on the table
if it's about migration and solidifying a relationship with Trump.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Maria, I'm going to jump in because I sat with
the spokesperson from DHS and I asked about specifically how
they're carrying out the deportations. They told me they have
deported so far since Trump came into office, more than
fifty thousand people. They call those people the worst of
the worst. Then the assumption is we are sending people
with criminal records, gang members, etc. Bugin's offer was don't
(17:31):
just release them into the continent. We want to imprison
them here and say, oh.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
That has not happened.
Speaker 6 (17:35):
And I asked DHS, Hey, what's the status of this
deal with Buchina. The Trump administration is saying, we are
already deporting the worst of the worst. And we know
that people went to Guantanamo, one hundred and seventy seven
of them were Venezuelan and they were sent to Venezuela.
And I asked about Venezuela and they told me, well, basically,
that's not our business. You know, we can't handle the
(17:58):
policy in other country, whether it's El Salvador or Venezula.
But from what DHS tells me is the deal with
bu of sending people there, sending deportees with criminal records
to El Salvador.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Has not happened.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
So I do question why is in El Salvador taking
already Trump is calling the worst of the worst?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right, So that leads us to this very interesting fascination
that members of Donald Trump's followers his administration maga people
who actually seem to like Boukele a lot right. So Roman,
let's talk for a moment about the parallels between these
(18:41):
right wing movements in the United States and Bukele, who
started from the left but has become clearly right wing.
What are the parallels between these two movements in the
United States and L Salvador.
Speaker 7 (18:52):
I think they're part of a global network of ideologically
aligned parties. You know, you could tie them to Victor
Orbah and others on international scale. They share it in
anti globalism quote unquote discourse, deep hostility toward critical civil
society organizations and press freedom. And you know those are
(19:14):
all trends in Al Savador from a number of years ago.
We can point to the hostilities towards civil society organizations
in Al Savador, not just the press, human rights monitors.
And I think that that connects to Bukelis, the way
that Bukele casts any dissident voice as part of the
quote unquote political opposition, and that does I feel neatly
(19:34):
align with some of the mega currents and discourse. You know,
at Seapac last year in twenty twenty four, he said famously.
Speaker 8 (19:39):
They say global listen comes to die at Seapack. I'm
here to tell you that in alsabad Or.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
It's all right that.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It seems like the Trump administration looks to El Salvador
and it says, huh, the Bugeli administration has completely limited
access of journalists. Can you talk really about the parallels
that you see begin, the Trump administration kind of looking
to us of it and saying, Hi, if they did that,
well maybe we can too.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Buken is not the only leader that is presenting models
that the Trump administration might want to emulate or center
in their discourse. But I do think that it might
be a symbiotic thing because I think Bukele does act
like Trump, and this is the second Trump term, and
(20:29):
I think that you might be right that they might
be looking at the Bukena model. I mean, we know
that Buela likes to speak in press conferences and select
the journalists he talks to. But we are seeing how
the White House is not wanting the you know, the
White House Correspondence Association to basically run how things play
out an independent organization, and they're changing the rules. So
(20:51):
you're right that a lot of what is playing out
in the US has happened already in places like El Salvador.
There's definitely a paying attention and we have seen many
members of Congress go down there take note. He's trying
to attract. That's the other thing that Bukela has expressed
that they're doing, and that his administration is trying to
promote as other governments in the region. Is attract investment
(21:14):
from US and know other countries.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Right, I mean I was very surprised, you know, suddenly
I start seeing these like come retire to El Salvador,
the safest place you can imagine, because there's a massive
prison system. So Roman you were Outlet Elfao was accused
by the Bukele administration of money laundering. The administration has
forced many journalists into exile. You yourself were expelled from Il
(21:39):
Salvado because of your work as a journalist in twenty
twenty one. So I'm wondering if you can talk about
the context and what your sense is as you're watching
this all play out, because it does feel like there
are these parallels between again El Salvador and the United States.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:54):
I would add about Ilfado that in April twenty twenty three,
the outlet administratively exiled its legal inscription to Costa Rica
and that was a result of the phony money laundering
and tax evasion accusations levied by the Bukeli administration against
the newsroom. Now, in my individual case, yes, I had
my residency denied in twenty twenty one, and I was
(22:16):
de facto expelled from the country, although I had preemptively
gotten on a bus to avoid them showing up and
forcefully removing me. So about let's see three years ago now,
we denounced that about two thirds of the entire newsroom
were surveiled, including myself, were surveilled using Pegasus spyware between
(22:37):
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Pegasus, for those who
don't know, is a spy were developed in Israel and
approved by the Israeli Ministry of Defense and sold only
to governments. And since then, we've actually launched a case
in California which is currently on appeal. We're appealing because
of a dismissal. The judge had ruled that it was
a foreign issue and he wrote that he didn't want
(22:58):
to burden a US jury with it, even though I mean,
we could say that has very broad implications for the
US and for the whole world. But on the other hand, I,
in particular, I am a US citizen and that wasn't taken
into account in the rolling. So we'll see what happens
on appeal in the next coming months. But in Broaderil Salvador,
in the same investigation that revealed the surveillance against Ilfado
there were around thirty five cases revealed by the Citizen
(23:18):
Lab at the University of Toronto, and these covered multiple newsrooms, columnists,
critical civil society organizations, human rights organizations, legal monitors, etc.
And on the other hand, there has been just an
absolute shuddering of public information. The government does very carefully
curate any and all media access it is granted in
(23:40):
the country, and I could say with probably ninety nine
percent certainty that no salvador And journalist has accessed sikled
the Center for Confinement of Terrorists, for example. And when
there is access to the press, it's usually to US
or foreign media or influencers, YouTubers and its lights, camera,
police action, as the old saying goes.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
So everything is very carefully curated.
Speaker 7 (24:01):
Though I would say that it's interesting that the Security
Minister Gusta Wobietro told Lilia that people are being tried
not for their individual crimes, which is a reflection of
reporting that we and other outlets have been doing for
a number of years, but that he distilled it that
clearly is striking.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So Lilia, just to wrap up, you know, in the
first Trump administration, really the focus was on Mexico Mexico, Mexico, Mexico, Mexico.
You now have a situation where Donald Trump is dealing regionally, right,
and these different partnerships are coming up. But we also
know that Donald Trump is a very unpredictable leader, which
(24:40):
means that all of these alliances can also be precarious. Right,
So what do you think. Just give us your long
term understanding of what you think is going to happen
again as this tiny, the smallest country in all of
Central America begins to have a much more massive presence
in the national dialogue and in kind of zeitgeist of
(25:01):
Donald Trump's and Elon Musk's mind of what's possible.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
You know, Marie, I thought that one of the most
effective policies that we have seen from politicians in the
US in many years was the bussing of migrants to
cities that were run by democratic mayors or states with
democratic governors, basically saying, you deal with the issue. I
think this moment is also sending the same message. I
(25:28):
think there's a parallel there with Trump saying to countries
in the region, you deal with the issue, and whether
it's tariff threats for threats to sovereignty like in the
case of the Panama Canal, it's forcing the arm of
countries in the region to deal with it. It's two
things that Trump wants. He wants to show that he's
this strong man who is forcing countries to do what
(25:51):
he wants, and at the same time, he wants to
show the images of we are deporting as many people
as we can. So I think for the Trump and
administration it's kind of a win win, Whereas for the
Biden administration, it was said, you know that we would cooperate,
and there were initiatives in the region, like in Panama
and in Guatemala, to deal with the issue of migration,
(26:13):
but it was neither visible nor I think very effective,
given when you look at the numbers. So you know,
we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know where
this is all going to end up. But I think
from my experience covering so many countries in the region
is when people have opportunities where they are, people don't
just want to move their families and their lives. So
(26:36):
whether it's investment or opening up and providing the assistance
you can for democratic governance to flourish in the region,
that's how you handle the problem, and what we are
seeing is around the world is not a support for
democratic governance.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
All right, So, Roman, long term, how you see this
relationship between the United States and El Salvador.
Speaker 7 (27:02):
I think it was clear from about two years ago
that the broad policy of US support for l Salvador
and for Bukele has been largely bipartisan issue, even if
they differ on certain points or if the Biden administration
disagrees with certain things in private. The Biden administration decided
to no longer criticize immediate presidential reelection, and the Trump
(27:27):
administration has certainly continued the broad strokes of cooperation. So
I don't see any indication that their support for Al
Salvador would waiver.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Roman Gracier and Lilia Luciano, thank you so much for
joining me and let you know USA, and for giving us,
you know, all of the context and information that we
need to know as we look to the future of
what might happen between the United States and El Salvador.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (27:52):
Thank you, Madia.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Thanks it was great to be here.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
This episode was produced by Nur Saudi and edited by
Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Lea Shaw Demro.
The Latino USA team also includes Roxanna Guire, Julie Caruso,
Felicia do Minez, Fernando Chavari, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Dominiquinestrosa,
Renaldo Lenos Junior, Stephanie in the Boat, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez,
(28:26):
JJ Crubin, Dasha Sandoval and Nancy Trujillo, Penille Ramirez, Marlon Bishop,
Maria Garcia and myself are co executive producers and I'm
your host, Marino Rossa. Join us again on our next episode.
In the meantime, look for us on all of our
social media. I'll see you on Instagram. E nontevayes Cjao.
Speaker 6 (28:48):
Latino USA is made possible in part by California Endowment,
building a strong state by improving the health of all Californians.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
The Heising Simons Foundation
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org
and the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front
lines of social change worldwide.
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