What’s really going on with fearful cats - and why should we rethink the label “scaredy cat”? Behavioral biologist Dr. Lee Niel shares expert insights on how to read cats’ signals and understand what they’re trying to tell us. Returning guest expert Dr. Kristyn Vitale explores the environments and conditions that can create so-called scaredy cats. Finally, meet arborist and emergency responder Duane Hook, who rescues cats stuck in trees and offers a unique perspective on feline fear, trust and resilience.
Check out Cat in a Tree Emergency Rescue at catinatreerescue.com.
Special thanks to Georgia Mason, Ph.D. of the University of Guelph.
Support the podcast at https://ko-fi.com/6degreesofcats for as little as $1 / month for stickers, early access to new episodes and behind the scenes audio. View the show notes and more on The Captain’s Log, the companion podcast newsletter here: linktr.ee/6degreesofcats.
And check out these supplementary episodes:
- 5 Ways to Say ”I Love Mew”: Using the 5 Love Languages…With Your Cat?
- Cats Are the Consummate Domesticate: Origins and Evolution of Our Feline Friends [Pilot]
About the experts:
- Duane Hook, an Ohio-based arborist and cat rescuer has been helping cats in North America down from trees since 2010. You can watch his harrowing rescue missions on TikTok (tiktok.com/@getmeowtahere) and YouTube (@DHook) - all happy outcomes! - and learn more about his work at getmeowtahere.com.
- Kristyn Vitale, Ph.D., is the founder of Maueyes and star of Netflix’s hit feature film, “The Mind of a Cat”. Her innovative research on cat behavior and human-animal interaction has been published in multiple peer-reviewed journals and been covered by such international publications as Science, National Geographic, The New York Times, and The Times of London.
- Lee Niel, Ph.D., is a behavioural biologist trained in animal behaviour and welfare with expertise with both laboratory and companion animals. Dr. Niel holds the Col KL Campbell Chair in Companion Animal Welfare at Ontario Veterinary College at Canada's University of Guelph, and her research and teaching are focused on the behaviour and welfare of companion animals.
Producer, writer, editor, sound designer, host, basically everything*
- Captain Kitty (Amanda B.)
* with co-executive producers Binky & Snuggles and new associate Peanut
Animal voices include:
- Binky, Snuggles and Peanut _^..^_
Music:
- Leathered: "Look Alive" © 2025
- Additional sound effects from Pixabay.com
Logo design:
- Edward Anthony © 2025 (Instagram: itsmyunzii)
Research used:
- Adolphs, R. (2013, January 21). The Biology of Fear. Current biology : CB. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3595162/
- Cantor, C., & Price, J. (2007, May). Traumatic entrapment, appeasement and complex post-traumatic stress disorder: Evolutionary perspectives of hostage reactions, domestic abuse and the Stockholm syndrome. The Australian and New Zealand journal of psychiatry. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17464728/
- Chetty, R., Hofmeyr, A., Kincaid, H., & Monroe, B. (2021). The Trust Game Does not (only) Measure trust: The risk-trust. Journal of Behavioral and Experimental Economics (formerly The Journal of Socio-Economics). https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/soceco/v90y2021ics2214804319302290.html
- Costandi, M. (2023, February 15). Your brain is wired to detect fear, outside of your conscious awareness. Big Think. https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/brain-fear-unconscious-awareness/
- Davis, D., Hogan, A. A., & Hart, D. J. (2025, September 19). Myths of trauma memory: On the oversimplification of effects of attention narrowing under stress. Frontiers. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2024.1294730/full
- Dawson, L. C.,
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to 6 Degrees of Cats, the world's number one and only cat-themed culture,
(00:17):
history and science podcast in which I, Captain Kitty, aka Amanda B, and my feline co-executive
producers Binky, Snuggles, and Peanut, navigate the weird, wild world from the past to the
present with the help of an exceptional array of guest experts.
All aboard!
Friends, we're just two episodes away from the season finale.
(00:43):
We're still far from financially solvent.
This has been a very weird time of the year for so many of us.
So if you do have that space, please do find us on ko-fi.com/6DegreesOfCats or see the
show notes.
And, again, continued thanks to our ongoing supporters who we shout out in our newsletter
(01:04):
and out loud every night when we recite all the good things in our lives.
Chief among them?
Oh yeah!
Kitty's are among the number one things we're grateful for.
What a grace at the universe that these tiny tigers decided to rub up against the leg
of an early human settler and present them with a dead mouse.
(01:25):
Or something like that.
Since there was no documentation of exactly how those first meetings went, we can only imagine.
Was it a curious kitty who wandered into a human campsite or an abandoned kitten socialized
by a kind human drawn to just how darn furry, playful, and adorable they are?
(01:52):
We've talked about our hyper-vigilant little house gods in mythical terms and have expounded
on the many, many strengths and powers, hey, superpowers that they possess.
But at the end of the day, those little 7 to 15 pound critters are mortal, like the rest
of us.
And while their hunting and survival skills are legendary, they're not actually pure
(02:14):
textbook apex predators.
They're actually prey as well.
It's no wonder they're scared little cats.
So that, my friends, is what brings us here today.
In this episode of 6 Degrees of Cats, we're going to take a more nuanced look into so-called
(02:35):
"scary" cats with a behavioral biologist, a familiar friend of the pod who knows the
mind of cats, and an arborist.
What's that?
Well, listen and find out.
"Scaredy" cat, "Fraidy" cat, "Pussy"
(03:03):
In terms of FCC's (semi-)compliant terms for an anxious, hyper-vigilant or fearful personality,
most of these are either a direct or indirect reference to cats.
Or, of course, women.
The term "scaredy cat" first surfaced in American culture by the queen of the quips and noted
(03:27):
animal lover leaning towards dog lady, actually, Dorothy Parker, in her 1933 short story, "The
Waltz."
And the term "scaredy cat", if etymology online is correct, is actually predated by the phrase
"Fraidy cat", which, per some reports, is rooted in late 19th century African American
(03:48):
vernacular English.
I've never understood this whole "scaredy cat" thing.
Cats aren't weak or cowering little critters.
We know this.
We live with them.
There's a lot to admire about how much power these little royals project with their infamous
(04:09):
"cattitude" and how protected they seem to be, what with the nine lives myth and the fact
that some people worship them, and all that we know about their marvelous physics and agility.
But cats are resilient because they have to be.
They continue to survive through hostile situations and tough climates.
(04:35):
One of the most important tools in their survival kit is they're finally attuned reflexes and
instincts.
Their fear responses.
The stuff that got them the name "scary" cat.
When your brain detects a threat, the oldest part of your brain springs into action.
(05:00):
It's called the limbic system, and it's actually something we share with cats.
A feline limbic system is remarkably similar to humans.
However, fear behaviors, that's where we differ, or do we?
When a cat is fearful, they'll initially show relatively subtle behaviors, but they become
(05:22):
much more extreme as the stressor or as whatever they're nervous about comes closer to them.
That was our first expert, behavioral biologist Dr. Lee Niel, who contributed to the development
of the American Association of Feline Practitioners and the International Society of Feline
Medicines.
First-ever joint publication of cat-friendly interaction guidelines with approach and handling
(05:46):
techniques.
So, a true expert on reading kitty behavior.
I'm from the Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph, and my area of expertise
is around companion animal behavior and welfare.
So I hold the chair in companion animal welfare at the OVC.
(06:07):
My research group looks at companion animal behavior and welfare.
We study cats, but we also study dogs and rabbits.
And when we're looking at cats, we're mostly trying to understand their welfare in different
contexts.
So, we're interested in understanding fear and aggression and how it develops, how we
can prevent it, so we look at both fundamental topics, and then we also look at more applied
(06:31):
things like can people understand what cats are trying to project to them as well as looking
at sort of applied things in veterinary clinics trying to understand how to improve veterinary
care for cats and if their experience has been the actual clinic.
When I'm scared, I feel my heart race, and sometimes I feel cold or even a sensation that
(06:56):
the hairs on my arms are standing up.
And I also scream when I'm startled or laugh, and one time I even got the hiccups.
Now I don't know about hiccups, but it turns out a lot of this stuff is the same for kiddies.
Cats are pretty obvious about their behavioral responses.
(07:18):
Some of the key behaviors to look for in sort of a high stress cat or a highly fearful cat
would be pile of erection, the fear poking up on their skin, freezing, you know, standing
still for short periods of time, tucking the tail, flinching, reacting to sounds and different
types of stimuli in the environment, ears to the side, and backwards, as well as their
(07:42):
posture sort of crouching low to the ground.
So all of those would be really obvious signals, and then if you back that up a little bit
when you're talking about mild fear, you'll see some of those, but they'll be to a lesser
extent and you might also see more subtle things like lip licking and stuff like that.
(08:02):
And you'll recognize some similar biomagnisms that work with the fealine fear response.
Yeah, so in general, fear responses in cats would be modulated by similar systems to what
we would have happening in humans.
As the stressor enters the system, you have a release of cortisol and adrenaline and all
(08:24):
of these different hormones, which then prepare the body for flight or fight.
They get them ready to go.
And so in terms of physiological responses that we see as well, you can get increased heart
rate, increased respiratory rate.
One of the key things in cats that's a really good indicator of fear is actually people
dilation, so quite often their peoples will get much larger when they're nervous.
(08:46):
So all of this just shows that they're physiologically activated.
(09:09):
Dr. Niel mentions something else that's really important to keep in mind when it comes to these
fear reactions.
I think that there's a lot of individual variability in how each cat copes with a different situation
just like there would be in humans.
For example, you can have one animal who, when something scary happens, they freeze and
(09:31):
they try to make themselves smaller and they hope that that stimulus will go away.
Versus you can have another animal who becomes proactive in that situation.
They don't just wait for something to happen, they either run away or they take care of it,
more of that offensive response where they start hissing and spitting and things like that.
So even when it's the same stimulus and potentially even a similar interpretation by the cat,
(09:56):
we can have very different responses.
And part of that could be experience as well.
So knowing what has happened in the past in those contexts and then trying to figure
out what an appropriate response might be.
When you have a cat who is extremely fearful, it could be due to a history of trauma
or it could be due to their more delicate wiring, their disposition or what we call
(10:20):
"attempermint" in babies.
Take it from Dr. Niel's gentle, humane work in her lab observing kittens.
One thing we've done is we try not to assume that kittens are going to respond in the same
way that out cats are.
(10:40):
It's possible that kittens don't develop their behavioral repertoire until they're a little
bit older so in one of our studies, we expose them to everyday household items so we weren't
trying to terrify the kittens but we were exposing them to different things like a handheld
vacuum cleaner or the sound of a dog barking, a plush cat to simulate sort of an unfamiliar
(11:02):
cat.
And we were looking at how they would respond to those types of stimuli and we see the same
behavioral repertoire in these kittens that we see in adults.
So by the time they're 5 to 7 weeks old, they're already showing those sort of core behavioral
responses that we would expect, like, approached posture, bowel or action freezing, tucking their
(11:23):
tail.
These pre-cognitive, I think, pre-conscious reactions are natural, normal and effective in
the short term.
But remember, while the basic terror template is similar among species, every individual is,
well, individual.
(11:44):
We've gone over understanding and appreciating why and how the limbic system is so important
in terms of fear responses because it's quite reasonable for them to be fearful.
I'm so glad that researchers like Dr. Niel are working to provide context and constructive
(12:08):
outputs to the whole "scaredy cat" shenanigans.
We've talked about fear and now let's kind of explore the other side of it.
That, my friend, is the phenomena of trust.
God trust.
(12:32):
Trust is a fragile gift that is both given and received.
A covenant, if you will, that we both mean no harm.
A belief that's renewed each time we do the thing we said we do, that we aren't lying
and that we come in peace.
There's nothing better than feeling totally safe because you're around someone you trust.
(12:53):
Ask a cat.
I think the key thing to look for with a cat who is not stressed is the relaxation type
poses.
Think of your stress cat is tight in a ball like they pull everything in, ears come back,
paws pull in, body is crouched and tight.
(13:13):
Versus when we see a relaxed cat, it's the opposite.
We see it though, sort of, lounging quite often.
If they're standing, they have a neutral body positioned quite often, their tail is sticking
up, particularly if they're approaching a person or something that they're investigating.
If they're lying down, you know, like sprawled to the side and you can just see there's
(13:34):
no body tension, there's sort of limp and loose.
This whole trust thing isn't easy with people and especially with cats.
I think the best thing to remember is that communication is key.
I'm working on speaking cat, but like many cat custodians, I'm only human.
(13:58):
I miss read my cats nonverbal and non-human verbal cues often.
So, after the break, we're going to gain some more insights on effective kittycoms.
Cats are really, that all, with a lot of their behaviors.
(14:30):
And so I think a lot of the stuff that cats are telling us can be easily missed by people,
just because they're not used to looking for those signals.
You may recognize that friendly voice as the star of Netflix's "Mind of a Cat", Dr. Kristyn
Vitale.
I'm a certified applied animal behaviorist and an assistant professor of animal health
(14:50):
and behavior at Unity Environmental University.
I also am the founder of Maueyes, which is a cat behavior education and consulting company.
I do consulting work for anyone who wants to improve the lives of cats.
Either their own pet cats or cats under their care through an animal shelter or free-ranging
(15:14):
cats.
It actually kind of started as a photography, outlook for me, because I was doing a lot
of animal and cat photography.
And so Maueyes has to do with cats and then eyes kind of came through this idea of looking
through a cat's eyes at the world.
Well, of course one cannot actually inhabit the consciousness of another being.
(15:40):
Evolutionary biologists have long recognized that humans and animals do share emotional
behaviors.
And it's through those emotions that I believe, heck, I know, we connect with other species.
It all comes down to translating how those emotions are expressed physically and verbally,
and it's on us to try to speak cat.
(16:03):
Take it away, Dr. Vitale.
I think a lot of it comes down to being able to read body language and behavior.
There's a lot of information cats are giving us, but I think that a lot of it is cat specific,
and we really have to learn how to speak cat.
(16:28):
We can't ask them, "Hey, how do you feel about this?"
We can't do that really with human infants either.
So I think that a lot of methods in psychology have kind of already been designed for measuring
how individuals with non-verbal skills feel.
(16:51):
One common thing that can be done is called a habituation, dishabituation methodology.
So in habituation, the animal is going to get used to something because it doesn't really
have meaning to them.
If I say four words like cup, table, window, none of those words mean anything to the cat
(17:14):
most likely.
Each time I say one of those words, the cat's not going to pay much attention.
But then all of a sudden, if I say the cat's name, may see, the cat should perk up because
now that's a word with meaning.
So they're going to dishabituate.
They're going to show a reaction.
(17:37):
And that's the same kind of methodology we use to study individuals that can't speak to
us.
It's really just about altering them for the specific species we're working with.
We can't always just take something meant for a person or for a dog and apply it to a cat,
but I think there's a lot we can do in psychology even though we can't ask the cat what they're
(17:58):
feeling using verbal language.
So yeah, when it comes to these so-called "scarydicats," we're misreading their signals and making
them feel unsafe and possibly communicating the wrong things to them as well.
(18:19):
No wonder they have trust issues.
On top of that, there's also another thing we might be seriously overlooking in terms
of our role in these "scaredy cats" worldviews, despite our best intentions.
What we expect from the cats might impact what we give to them.
(18:41):
So if we don't expect our cats to socialize or introduce them to strangers so that they
can learn strangers or nothing to fear, that can create a cat that is fearful of strangers
and is fearful of leaving the home.
Hey, they're going to experience strangers throughout their life, so let's get them used
to that.
They're going to have to go to the vet throughout their life, so let's get them used to
(19:03):
car rides and leaving the home.
We've done kitten training and socialization classes for cats of all ages.
They've done excellent with that.
They left the home, they've come to an unfamiliar spot, they've met strangers, they've socialized.
I would say to owners, don't let what you might believe impact what you do because the proof
(19:28):
is in the behavior.
Look through their eyes.
You might find some new things about your cat you never knew before.
(19:49):
You may wonder,
how the heck can we communicate cross species?
Is anyone at all great at it?
Absolutely.
I'm really excited to introduce you to someone with a next level of ability to speak cat,
that is, scary cat.
Someone who can build trust with a cat he's never met before under the most pressing
(20:15):
of circumstances.
My name is Duane Hook and I rescue cats out of trees.
I'm a tree climber.
I'm on Instagram at duane.hook and my name is spelled DUANE, not DWAYNE.
(20:37):
I think I've rescued, I stopped counting in 2015 or 2016 when it was around 50.
Based on the frequencies of the calls that I get and the rescues I go out on, it has to
be 700 cats that I've rescued from trees.
Wow.
Not all heroes wear capes, as they say.
(20:58):
Some have carabinners and ropes and...
I would never use spikes or anything that would damage the tree, first of all.
I respect the tree, respect the cat and respect my safety, not all in that order, but those
are three of my tenants when I'm approaching these rescues.
(21:20):
I use Arborist climbing equipment.
Currently my favorite climbing system would be like it's called a rope walker system.
It's a stationary rope technique and I use a rope runner device that just follows me up
the rope.
On my feet, I have an ascender that will slide up the rope but will not slide down the rope.
(21:41):
So I can basically just run up the rope and then if I sit down or slip or anything like
that, this rope runner will catch me on the rope.
It was an absolute delight to have come across Duane's rescue clips.
You can climb along with Duane as he retrieves some frightened felines from freaky heights.
(22:05):
I came into tree climbing seriously, rather late in life.
I was around 30.
I would play this game that's super popular now called Geocaching where you hunt for things
that people would hide and they would just post the coordinates online.
I would take my nephews out on these little geocaching adventures and some of them were
(22:26):
hidden in trees.
So through doing that with my nephews, I really got into tree climbing and learning more
about trees and the different species.
I practiced and watched videos and read books.
I learned how to do this myself.
I've since climbed trees all over the world from the rainforests in the Amazon climbing
(22:48):
giant trees, climbed in Costa Rica as a tree climbing guide in all the forest types of Costa
Rica, climbed the red woods in California a few times and I've even climbed with goats
in Morocco on our gone trees.
So I've just developed a real passion for climbing trees.
(23:10):
Shortly after I started climbing trees, I found out about these cats getting stuck in
trees.
Someone was talking about a cat rescue and I'm listening, thinking, "Hmm, I'm pretty good
with cats.
I have a couple of cats at home."
That's what I learned about this directory, CatInATreeRescue.com.
That is where climbers from all over the country and now all over the world can contact Dan
(23:33):
Krauss.
He's a champion climber from the Pacific Northwest.
He made this website and there's a directory where climbers can say, "Hey, Dan, I want to
be on the directory.
This is the area that I want to cover and this is my number where people can reach me."
So I got on that directory and that's how I first got my first call to rescue a cat.
(23:55):
You got to hear about Duane's first rescue.
It's too adorable.
The very first cat rescue I ever did was on Beggar's Night of 2010, Trick or Treat.
I'm driving through this neighborhood, looking for this address and children are walking
around in costumes all through the neighborhood.
(24:18):
I'd already spoken with the people on the phone and then let them know what time I would
be there.
I get in front of the house and stop and this little girl dressed like a fairy princess
is on the stoop.
She steps out on the stoop and yells at the top of her lungs, "He's here!"
(24:41):
And all these kids dressing costumes just come swarming over because they'd all seen this
cat.
They may not have been in the tree for four days at this point.
So the kids just kind of heard me around to the back of this house next door and show me
where this cat has been stuck in this tree for four days.
(25:02):
I remember it was a box elder tree.
There was a little ladder next to it and I thought, "I don't even need this ladder to
get in this tree.
I'm not even going to get my gear out of my car."
So I just grabbed the pillowcase.
They gave me and freeklined up to this beautiful like tour to shell, long haired cat.
I get the cat and hold it to my chest and I turn around and I'm looking down and all these
(25:24):
kids and costumes start cheering me.
And I can see like their pumpkin bucket, jack-a-lantern buckets flying around candy flying
everywhere, like Dracula, dinosaurs, fairies.
You name it or just cheering for me from down below on this tree and I thought, "I'm doing
(25:45):
this again."
I just need a minute.
That is just so cute.
Seriously, it sounds like a scene from the Peanut's Halloween special.
This climbing experience kind of undersells Doug's secret skill.
I do a lot more counseling of humans than I do climbing of trees because the best scenario
(26:11):
is if a cat figures out how to climb down on their own.
What cats do?
If I can counsel the humans, give them tips on what to do, what not to do and to just relax
and know that their cat is going to be okay in this tree for two nights.
(26:33):
70% of these cats will climb down on their own and that's the best case.
That takes some tenderness and reading of people to get through them to convince them
that because we love our pets, they're part of our family.
I have to really engage them and calm them down.
That's one of the most important things to be successful at this and to serve the cats,
(26:55):
best and the people best.
That's the most important skill that I have, I think.
It comes back to shifting the view from seeing cats as scaredy cats to seeing them as reasonably
concerned cats.
I know, that's less catchy.
I've had rescues where the cat was chased by children throwing rocks at a cat chasing up
(27:19):
a tree.
Usually it's dogs, coyotes, children, other big cats, tom cats, cats who are more experienced
outside and bobcats in my area.
I'm sure in other areas that I can vary.
But then I've also had some indoor cats that have never been out in the world before and
(27:40):
I can't even imagine what's that like when your whole world is this house and then you
go out into this crazy world.
For the first time, many things could scare a cat like a weed whacker or a lawn mower in
the next yard.
People often say, "Well, it's just chasing birds or chasing a squirrel."
(28:02):
I don't think that's the case.
If a cat just shows a climb up there, they usually can climb down.
It's always a fight or flight scenario.
In the animal kingdom, we humans are predators too.
That can be threatening especially an animal that's scared in a tree.
(28:23):
It's already in this bad spot.
Dwayne has some really great evidence-informed cat-centric tips to help if you do come across a
kiddie stuck in a tree or some other very high and scary place.
First, some don'ts.
Do not put a ladder in the tree.
(28:48):
Ladders are loud and clangy, unfamiliar objects to cats and they oftentimes will scare the cat
up the tree and create an obstruction.
Cats have an easier time climbing down a tree than they would climbing down a ladder.
Do not put food around the base of the tree because if there's food around the base of the
(29:09):
tree, it's going to track other scavengers and possibly the predators that chase them up
the tree.
Do not put the food down.
Your cat's not food-motivated right now when it's in the tree.
Let's say your cat's stuck in the tree in your yard.
You can see this cat from your back porch or your dad or your kitchen window.
(29:36):
Don't just step out the door to where you can see the cat in the tree and call for them.
That cat can see you but it can't walk straight to you.
It may walk way out on a limb to get as close as it can to you, but it's not going to choose
to go down the tree from that position.
(29:57):
If your cat is up a tree, go to the base of the tree where you can put your hand on the
trunk of the tree because that's where you want the cat to go down the tree.
Call intensely for five, ten minutes and then leave the cat alone for an hour.
Come back, touch the trunk of the tree that's where you want the cat to go.
(30:18):
Call intensely for five or ten minutes, rinse and repeat.
The cat needs to feel this sense that, "Hey, I've got to do this myself.
My human cannot help me."
They have to realize that they're in this situation, think about their life choices and
decide to go for it.
(30:39):
Those are the best tips I can give if someone is in this situation.
I love cats.
They're in control.
They have this pride in obscene cats, just like be pissed that they're in this situation.
(30:59):
And it's so funny to see a cat just overcome a little bit of that pride and let someone
help them to be honest.
I didn't always know how to position my body and myself to make this outcome the best
for the cat.
So, I do a lot of just looking away and talking softly and calmly when I can.
(31:21):
For the years, you learn what these cats need and how they're talking to you.
Thanks so much, Duane.
Hero to cats.
If you are at the top of the food chain in a world shaped around you, the reality is that
(31:42):
you are often at the mercy of those with more power and resources.
You could find yourself abandoned, unsheltered, foraging for food and at the mercy of those
who are indifferent to your suffering.
It's no wonder that cats are hypersensitive and rightfully responsive to these uncontrollable,
unknowable factors in a world that speaks and revolves around a completely different species.
(32:15):
Scarity cat, schmaryty cat.
Whoever came up with that was the biggest kind of coward.
Someone who is afraid of looking weak.
That is pathetic.
Y'all, cats are smart and brave.
So let's give all these tough little tigers the credit they do.
And the rebrand.
(32:35):
Smarty cats?
Nah, maybe not.
Speaking of rebranding.
In the next episode, we'll rethink the term "house cats."
Maybe "heart cats."
Alright, I'm really on a roll here.
That was bad.
Anyway, I want to thank my wonderful experts and heroes to all cats.
(32:56):
Lee Niel,
Kristyn Vitale
and...
Duane Hook.
While the opinions are my own, the research and work is theirs.
If you'd like to learn more about them, please do check out our show notes, which also include
the references and research that went into this episode.
As we mentioned at the top, we do appreciate every penny cent to keep this ship afloat.
(33:17):
Sign up to support the podcast through the links in our show notes.
You'll gain access to off-season treats like behind the scene clips, merch discounts,
and more.
Don't wait until it's too late.
We're coming up on the final episodes of season three, and heck, we want an award.
Thanks so much to Earworthy for calling us the best Indie Nature podcast.
(33:37):
We're always grateful when we hear that you're recommending it to your friends, posting
about it on your slack cat channels.
So please keep recommending us as the best kept secret that only the cool cats know about.
Thank you all for being forces of good in this sometimes scary world during these really
traumatizing times.
Every kind act towards kin or cat makes the world a better place.
(34:01):
Because remember, everything is connected.
6 Degrees of Cats is produced, written, edited, and hosted by yours truly, Captain Kitty.
A.K.A. Amanda B. Please subscribe to our mailing list by going to linktr.ee/
(34:22):
6DegreesOfCats, or look us up on all those social media platforms.
You'll be first in line for the extra audio and more treats if you connect with us there.
All episodes are dedicated to the misunderstood, the marginalized, the resilient, and the
feared. And of course, all the cats we've loved and lost.
(34:47):
I actually set up a cat elevator.
I had the woman go get a laundry basket, a can of tuna, and I set another line right above
this cat and pulled the laundry basket up with the tuna and a bowl of water in it.
And this thing is like 70 feet up in the air.
I told her in her neighbor, "Here's how you get this cat down.
I want you to check this as frequently as you can see if the cat is in the basket and
(35:10):
lower down the cat.
Got in the basket ate all the food and she lowered it down the next morning.
It was great."
Welcome back to 6 Degrees of Cats, the world's number one and only cat-themed culture,
(00:17):
history and science podcast in which I, Captain Kitty, aka Amanda B, and my feline co-executive
producers Binky, Snuggles, and Peanut, navigate the weird, wild world from the past to the
present with the help of an exceptional array of guest experts.
All aboard!
Friends, we're just two episodes away from the season finale.
(00:43):
We're still far from financially solvent.
This has been a very weird time of the year for so many of us.
So if you do have that space, please do find us on ko-fi.com/6DegreesOfCats or see the
show notes.
And, again, continued thanks to our ongoing supporters who we shout out in our newsletter
(01:04):
and out loud every night when we recite all the good things in our lives.
Chief among them?
Oh yeah!
Kitty's are among the number one things we're grateful for.
What a grace at the universe that these tiny tigers decided to rub up against the leg
of an early human settler and present them with a dead mouse.
(01:25):
Or something like that.
Since there was no documentation of exactly how those first meetings went, we can only imagine.
Was it a curious kitty who wandered into a human campsite or an abandoned kitten socialized
by a kind human drawn to just how darn furry, playful, and adorable they are?
(01:52):
We've talked about our hyper-vigilant little house gods in mythical terms and have expounded
on the many, many strengths and powers, hey, superpowers that they possess.
But at the end of the day, those little 7 to 15 pound critters are mortal, like the rest
of us.
And while their hunting and survival skills are legendary, they're not actually pure
(02:14):
textbook apex predators.
They're actually prey as well.
It's no wonder they're scared little cats.
So that, my friends, is what brings us here today.
In this episode of 6 Degrees of Cats, we're going to take a more nuanced look into so-called
(02:35):
"scary" cats with a behavioral biologist, a familiar friend of the pod who knows the
mind of cats, and an arborist.
What's that?
Well, listen and find out.
"Scaredy" cat, "Fraidy" cat, "Pussy"
(03:03):
In terms of FCC's (semi-)compliant terms for an anxious, hyper-vigilant or fearful personality,
most of these are either a direct or indirect reference to cats.
Or, of course, women.
The term "scaredy cat" first surfaced in American culture by the queen of the quips and noted
(03:27):
animal lover leaning towards dog lady, actually, Dorothy Parker, in her 1933 short story, "The
Waltz."
And the term "scaredy cat", if etymology online is correct, is actually predated by the phrase
"Fraidy cat", which, per some reports, is rooted in late 19th century African American
(03:48):
vernacular English.
I've never understood this whole "scaredy cat" thing.
Cats aren't weak or cowering little critters.
We know this.
We live with them.
There's a lot to admire about how much power these little royals project with their infamous
(04:09):
"cattitude" and how protected they seem to be, what with the nine lives myth and the fact
that some people worship them, and all that we know about their marvelous physics and agility.
But cats are resilient because they have to be.
They continue to survive through hostile situations and tough climates.
(04:35):
One of the most important tools in their survival kit is they're finally attuned reflexes and
instincts.
Their fear responses.
The stuff that got them the name "scary" cat.
When your brain detects a threat, the oldest part of your brain springs into action.
(05:00):
It's called the limbic system, and it's actually something we share with cats.
A feline limbic system is remarkably similar to humans.
However, fear behaviors, that's where we differ, or do we?
When a cat is fearful, they'll initially show relatively subtle behaviors, but they become
(05:22):
much more extreme as the stressor or as whatever they're nervous about comes closer to them.
That was our first expert, behavioral biologist Dr. Lee Niel, who contributed to the development
of the American Association of Feline Practitioners and the International Society of Feline
Medicines.
First-ever joint publication of cat-friendly interaction guidelines with approach and handling
(05:46):
techniques.
So, a true expert on reading kitty behavior.
I'm from the Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph, and my area of expertise
is around companion animal behavior and welfare.
So I hold the chair in companion animal welfare at the OVC.
(06:07):
My research group looks at companion animal behavior and welfare.
We study cats, but we also study dogs and rabbits.
And when we're looking at cats, we're mostly trying to understand their welfare in different
contexts.
So, we're interested in understanding fear and aggression and how it develops, how we
can prevent it, so we look at both fundamental topics, and then we also look at more applied
(06:31):
things like can people understand what cats are trying to project to them as well as looking
at sort of applied things in veterinary clinics trying to understand how to improve veterinary
care for cats and if their experience has been the actual clinic.
When I'm scared, I feel my heart race, and sometimes I feel cold or even a sensation that
(06:56):
the hairs on my arms are standing up.
And I also scream when I'm startled or laugh, and one time I even got the hiccups.
Now I don't know about hiccups, but it turns out a lot of this stuff is the same for kiddies.
Cats are pretty obvious about their behavioral responses.
(07:18):
Some of the key behaviors to look for in sort of a high stress cat or a highly fearful cat
would be pile of erection, the fear poking up on their skin, freezing, you know, standing
still for short periods of time, tucking the tail, flinching, reacting to sounds and different
types of stimuli in the environment, ears to the side, and backwards, as well as their
(07:42):
posture sort of crouching low to the ground.
So all of those would be really obvious signals, and then if you back that up a little bit
when you're talking about mild fear, you'll see some of those, but they'll be to a lesser
extent and you might also see more subtle things like lip licking and stuff like that.
(08:02):
And you'll recognize some similar biomagnisms that work with the fealine fear response.
Yeah, so in general, fear responses in cats would be modulated by similar systems to what
we would have happening in humans.
As the stressor enters the system, you have a release of cortisol and adrenaline and all
(08:24):
of these different hormones, which then prepare the body for flight or fight.
They get them ready to go.
And so in terms of physiological responses that we see as well, you can get increased heart
rate, increased respiratory rate.
One of the key things in cats that's a really good indicator of fear is actually people
dilation, so quite often their peoples will get much larger when they're nervous.
(08:46):
So all of this just shows that they're physiologically activated.
(09:09):
Dr. Niel mentions something else that's really important to keep in mind when it comes to these
fear reactions.
I think that there's a lot of individual variability in how each cat copes with a different situation
just like there would be in humans.
For example, you can have one animal who, when something scary happens, they freeze and
(09:31):
they try to make themselves smaller and they hope that that stimulus will go away.
Versus you can have another animal who becomes proactive in that situation.
They don't just wait for something to happen, they either run away or they take care of it,
more of that offensive response where they start hissing and spitting and things like that.
So even when it's the same stimulus and potentially even a similar interpretation by the cat,
(09:56):
we can have very different responses.
And part of that could be experience as well.
So knowing what has happened in the past in those contexts and then trying to figure
out what an appropriate response might be.
When you have a cat who is extremely fearful, it could be due to a history of trauma
or it could be due to their more delicate wiring, their disposition or what we call
(10:20):
"attempermint" in babies.
Take it from Dr. Niel's gentle, humane work in her lab observing kittens.
One thing we've done is we try not to assume that kittens are going to respond in the same
way that out cats are.
(10:40):
It's possible that kittens don't develop their behavioral repertoire until they're a little
bit older so in one of our studies, we expose them to everyday household items so we weren't
trying to terrify the kittens but we were exposing them to different things like a handheld
vacuum cleaner or the sound of a dog barking, a plush cat to simulate sort of an unfamiliar
(11:02):
cat.
And we were looking at how they would respond to those types of stimuli and we see the same
behavioral repertoire in these kittens that we see in adults.
So by the time they're 5 to 7 weeks old, they're already showing those sort of core behavioral
responses that we would expect, like, approached posture, bowel or action freezing, tucking their
(11:23):
tail.
These pre-cognitive, I think, pre-conscious reactions are natural, normal and effective in
the short term.
But remember, while the basic terror template is similar among species, every individual is,
well, individual.
(11:44):
We've gone over understanding and appreciating why and how the limbic system is so important
in terms of fear responses because it's quite reasonable for them to be fearful.
I'm so glad that researchers like Dr. Niel are working to provide context and constructive
(12:08):
outputs to the whole "scaredy cat" shenanigans.
We've talked about fear and now let's kind of explore the other side of it.
That, my friend, is the phenomena of trust.
God trust.
(12:32):
Trust is a fragile gift that is both given and received.
A covenant, if you will, that we both mean no harm.
A belief that's renewed each time we do the thing we said we do, that we aren't lying
and that we come in peace.
There's nothing better than feeling totally safe because you're around someone you trust.
(12:53):
Ask a cat.
I think the key thing to look for with a cat who is not stressed is the relaxation type
poses.
Think of your stress cat is tight in a ball like they pull everything in, ears come back,
paws pull in, body is crouched and tight.
(13:13):
Versus when we see a relaxed cat, it's the opposite.
We see it though, sort of, lounging quite often.
If they're standing, they have a neutral body positioned quite often, their tail is sticking
up, particularly if they're approaching a person or something that they're investigating.
If they're lying down, you know, like sprawled to the side and you can just see there's
(13:34):
no body tension, there's sort of limp and loose.
This whole trust thing isn't easy with people and especially with cats.
I think the best thing to remember is that communication is key.
I'm working on speaking cat, but like many cat custodians, I'm only human.
(13:58):
I miss read my cats nonverbal and non-human verbal cues often.
So, after the break, we're going to gain some more insights on effective kittycoms.
Cats are really, that all, with a lot of their behaviors.
(14:30):
And so I think a lot of the stuff that cats are telling us can be easily missed by people,
just because they're not used to looking for those signals.
You may recognize that friendly voice as the star of Netflix's "Mind of a Cat", Dr. Kristyn
Vitale.
I'm a certified applied animal behaviorist and an assistant professor of animal health
(14:50):
and behavior at Unity Environmental University.
I also am the founder of Maueyes, which is a cat behavior education and consulting company.
I do consulting work for anyone who wants to improve the lives of cats.
Either their own pet cats or cats under their care through an animal shelter or free-ranging
(15:14):
cats.
It actually kind of started as a photography, outlook for me, because I was doing a lot
of animal and cat photography.
And so Maueyes has to do with cats and then eyes kind of came through this idea of looking
through a cat's eyes at the world.
Well, of course one cannot actually inhabit the consciousness of another being.
(15:40):
Evolutionary biologists have long recognized that humans and animals do share emotional
behaviors.
And it's through those emotions that I believe, heck, I know, we connect with other species.
It all comes down to translating how those emotions are expressed physically and verbally,
and it's on us to try to speak cat.
(16:03):
Take it away, Dr. Vitale.
I think a lot of it comes down to being able to read body language and behavior.
There's a lot of information cats are giving us, but I think that a lot of it is cat specific,
and we really have to learn how to speak cat.
(16:28):
We can't ask them, "Hey, how do you feel about this?"
We can't do that really with human infants either.
So I think that a lot of methods in psychology have kind of already been designed for measuring
how individuals with non-verbal skills feel.
(16:51):
One common thing that can be done is called a habituation, dishabituation methodology.
So in habituation, the animal is going to get used to something because it doesn't really
have meaning to them.
If I say four words like cup, table, window, none of those words mean anything to the cat
(17:14):
most likely.
Each time I say one of those words, the cat's not going to pay much attention.
But then all of a sudden, if I say the cat's name, may see, the cat should perk up because
now that's a word with meaning.
So they're going to dishabituate.
They're going to show a reaction.
(17:37):
And that's the same kind of methodology we use to study individuals that can't speak to
us.
It's really just about altering them for the specific species we're working with.
We can't always just take something meant for a person or for a dog and apply it to a cat,
but I think there's a lot we can do in psychology even though we can't ask the cat what they're
(17:58):
feeling using verbal language.
So yeah, when it comes to these so-called "scarydicats," we're misreading their signals and making
them feel unsafe and possibly communicating the wrong things to them as well.
(18:19):
No wonder they have trust issues.
On top of that, there's also another thing we might be seriously overlooking in terms
of our role in these "scaredy cats" worldviews, despite our best intentions.
What we expect from the cats might impact what we give to them.
(18:41):
So if we don't expect our cats to socialize or introduce them to strangers so that they
can learn strangers or nothing to fear, that can create a cat that is fearful of strangers
and is fearful of leaving the home.
Hey, they're going to experience strangers throughout their life, so let's get them used
to that.
They're going to have to go to the vet throughout their life, so let's get them used to
(19:03):
car rides and leaving the home.
We've done kitten training and socialization classes for cats of all ages.
They've done excellent with that.
They left the home, they've come to an unfamiliar spot, they've met strangers, they've socialized.
I would say to owners, don't let what you might believe impact what you do because the proof
(19:28):
is in the behavior.
Look through their eyes.
You might find some new things about your cat you never knew before.
(19:49):
You may wonder,
how the heck can we communicate cross species?
Is anyone at all great at it?
Absolutely.
I'm really excited to introduce you to someone with a next level of ability to speak cat,
that is, scary cat.
Someone who can build trust with a cat he's never met before under the most pressing
(20:15):
of circumstances.
My name is Duane Hook and I rescue cats out of trees.
I'm a tree climber.
I'm on Instagram at duane.hook and my name is spelled DUANE, not DWAYNE.
(20:37):
I think I've rescued, I stopped counting in 2015 or 2016 when it was around 50.
Based on the frequencies of the calls that I get and the rescues I go out on, it has to
be 700 cats that I've rescued from trees.
Wow.
Not all heroes wear capes, as they say.
(20:58):
Some have carabinners and ropes and...
I would never use spikes or anything that would damage the tree, first of all.
I respect the tree, respect the cat and respect my safety, not all in that order, but those
are three of my tenants when I'm approaching these rescues.
(21:20):
I use Arborist climbing equipment.
Currently my favorite climbing system would be like it's called a rope walker system.
It's a stationary rope technique and I use a rope runner device that just follows me up
the rope.
On my feet, I have an ascender that will slide up the rope but will not slide down the rope.
(21:41):
So I can basically just run up the rope and then if I sit down or slip or anything like
that, this rope runner will catch me on the rope.
It was an absolute delight to have come across Duane's rescue clips.
You can climb along with Duane as he retrieves some frightened felines from freaky heights.
(22:05):
I came into tree climbing seriously, rather late in life.
I was around 30.
I would play this game that's super popular now called Geocaching where you hunt for things
that people would hide and they would just post the coordinates online.
I would take my nephews out on these little geocaching adventures and some of them were
(22:26):
hidden in trees.
So through doing that with my nephews, I really got into tree climbing and learning more
about trees and the different species.
I practiced and watched videos and read books.
I learned how to do this myself.
I've since climbed trees all over the world from the rainforests in the Amazon climbing
(22:48):
giant trees, climbed in Costa Rica as a tree climbing guide in all the forest types of Costa
Rica, climbed the red woods in California a few times and I've even climbed with goats
in Morocco on our gone trees.
So I've just developed a real passion for climbing trees.
(23:10):
Shortly after I started climbing trees, I found out about these cats getting stuck in
trees.
Someone was talking about a cat rescue and I'm listening, thinking, "Hmm, I'm pretty good
with cats.
I have a couple of cats at home."
That's what I learned about this directory, CatInATreeRescue.com.
That is where climbers from all over the country and now all over the world can contact Dan
(23:33):
Krauss.
He's a champion climber from the Pacific Northwest.
He made this website and there's a directory where climbers can say, "Hey, Dan, I want to
be on the directory.
This is the area that I want to cover and this is my number where people can reach me."
So I got on that directory and that's how I first got my first call to rescue a cat.
(23:55):
You got to hear about Duane's first rescue.
It's too adorable.
The very first cat rescue I ever did was on Beggar's Night of 2010, Trick or Treat.
I'm driving through this neighborhood, looking for this address and children are walking
around in costumes all through the neighborhood.
(24:18):
I'd already spoken with the people on the phone and then let them know what time I would
be there.
I get in front of the house and stop and this little girl dressed like a fairy princess
is on the stoop.
She steps out on the stoop and yells at the top of her lungs, "He's here!"
(24:41):
And all these kids dressing costumes just come swarming over because they'd all seen this
cat.
They may not have been in the tree for four days at this point.
So the kids just kind of heard me around to the back of this house next door and show me
where this cat has been stuck in this tree for four days.
(25:02):
I remember it was a box elder tree.
There was a little ladder next to it and I thought, "I don't even need this ladder to
get in this tree.
I'm not even going to get my gear out of my car."
So I just grabbed the pillowcase.
They gave me and freeklined up to this beautiful like tour to shell, long haired cat.
I get the cat and hold it to my chest and I turn around and I'm looking down and all these
(25:24):
kids and costumes start cheering me.
And I can see like their pumpkin bucket, jack-a-lantern buckets flying around candy flying
everywhere, like Dracula, dinosaurs, fairies.
You name it or just cheering for me from down below on this tree and I thought, "I'm doing
(25:45):
this again."
I just need a minute.
That is just so cute.
Seriously, it sounds like a scene from the Peanut's Halloween special.
This climbing experience kind of undersells Doug's secret skill.
I do a lot more counseling of humans than I do climbing of trees because the best scenario
(26:11):
is if a cat figures out how to climb down on their own.
What cats do?
If I can counsel the humans, give them tips on what to do, what not to do and to just relax
and know that their cat is going to be okay in this tree for two nights.
(26:33):
70% of these cats will climb down on their own and that's the best case.
That takes some tenderness and reading of people to get through them to convince them
that because we love our pets, they're part of our family.
I have to really engage them and calm them down.
That's one of the most important things to be successful at this and to serve the cats,
(26:55):
best and the people best.
That's the most important skill that I have, I think.
It comes back to shifting the view from seeing cats as scaredy cats to seeing them as reasonably
concerned cats.
I know, that's less catchy.
I've had rescues where the cat was chased by children throwing rocks at a cat chasing up
(27:19):
a tree.
Usually it's dogs, coyotes, children, other big cats, tom cats, cats who are more experienced
outside and bobcats in my area.
I'm sure in other areas that I can vary.
But then I've also had some indoor cats that have never been out in the world before and
(27:40):
I can't even imagine what's that like when your whole world is this house and then you
go out into this crazy world.
For the first time, many things could scare a cat like a weed whacker or a lawn mower in
the next yard.
People often say, "Well, it's just chasing birds or chasing a squirrel."
(28:02):
I don't think that's the case.
If a cat just shows a climb up there, they usually can climb down.
It's always a fight or flight scenario.
In the animal kingdom, we humans are predators too.
That can be threatening especially an animal that's scared in a tree.
(28:23):
It's already in this bad spot.
Dwayne has some really great evidence-informed cat-centric tips to help if you do come across a
kiddie stuck in a tree or some other very high and scary place.
First, some don'ts.
Do not put a ladder in the tree.
(28:48):
Ladders are loud and clangy, unfamiliar objects to cats and they oftentimes will scare the cat
up the tree and create an obstruction.
Cats have an easier time climbing down a tree than they would climbing down a ladder.
Do not put food around the base of the tree because if there's food around the base of the
(29:09):
tree, it's going to track other scavengers and possibly the predators that chase them up
the tree.
Do not put the food down.
Your cat's not food-motivated right now when it's in the tree.
Let's say your cat's stuck in the tree in your yard.
You can see this cat from your back porch or your dad or your kitchen window.
(29:36):
Don't just step out the door to where you can see the cat in the tree and call for them.
That cat can see you but it can't walk straight to you.
It may walk way out on a limb to get as close as it can to you, but it's not going to choose
to go down the tree from that position.
(29:57):
If your cat is up a tree, go to the base of the tree where you can put your hand on the
trunk of the tree because that's where you want the cat to go down the tree.
Call intensely for five, ten minutes and then leave the cat alone for an hour.
Come back, touch the trunk of the tree that's where you want the cat to go.
(30:18):
Call intensely for five or ten minutes, rinse and repeat.
The cat needs to feel this sense that, "Hey, I've got to do this myself.
My human cannot help me."
They have to realize that they're in this situation, think about their life choices and
decide to go for it.
(30:39):
Those are the best tips I can give if someone is in this situation.
I love cats.
They're in control.
They have this pride in obscene cats, just like be pissed that they're in this situation.
(30:59):
And it's so funny to see a cat just overcome a little bit of that pride and let someone
help them to be honest.
I didn't always know how to position my body and myself to make this outcome the best
for the cat.
So, I do a lot of just looking away and talking softly and calmly when I can.
(31:21):
For the years, you learn what these cats need and how they're talking to you.
Thanks so much, Duane.
Hero to cats.
If you are at the top of the food chain in a world shaped around you, the reality is that
(31:42):
you are often at the mercy of those with more power and resources.
You could find yourself abandoned, unsheltered, foraging for food and at the mercy of those
who are indifferent to your suffering.
It's no wonder that cats are hypersensitive and rightfully responsive to these uncontrollable,
unknowable factors in a world that speaks and revolves around a completely different species.
(32:15):
Scarity cat, schmaryty cat.
Whoever came up with that was the biggest kind of coward.
Someone who is afraid of looking weak.
That is pathetic.
Y'all, cats are smart and brave.
So let's give all these tough little tigers the credit they do.
And the rebrand.
(32:35):
Smarty cats?
Nah, maybe not.
Speaking of rebranding.
In the next episode, we'll rethink the term "house cats."
Maybe "heart cats."
Alright, I'm really on a roll here.
That was bad.
Anyway, I want to thank my wonderful experts and heroes to all cats.
(32:56):
Lee Niel,
Kristyn Vitale
and...
Duane Hook.
While the opinions are my own, the research and work is theirs.
If you'd like to learn more about them, please do check out our show notes, which also include
the references and research that went into this episode.
As we mentioned at the top, we do appreciate every penny cent to keep this ship afloat.
(33:17):
Sign up to support the podcast through the links in our show notes.
You'll gain access to off-season treats like behind the scene clips, merch discounts,
and more.
Don't wait until it's too late.
We're coming up on the final episodes of season three, and heck, we want an award.
Thanks so much to Earworthy for calling us the best Indie Nature podcast.
(33:37):
We're always grateful when we hear that you're recommending it to your friends, posting
about it on your slack cat channels.
So please keep recommending us as the best kept secret that only the cool cats know about.
Thank you all for being forces of good in this sometimes scary world during these really
traumatizing times.
Every kind act towards kin or cat makes the world a better place.
(34:01):
Because remember, everything is connected.
6 Degrees of Cats is produced, written, edited, and hosted by yours truly, Captain Kitty.
A.K.A. Amanda B. Please subscribe to our mailing list by going to linktr.ee/
(34:22):
6DegreesOfCats, or look us up on all those social media platforms.
You'll be first in line for the extra audio and more treats if you connect with us there.
All episodes are dedicated to the misunderstood, the marginalized, the resilient, and the
feared. And of course, all the cats we've loved and lost.
(34:47):
I actually set up a cat elevator.
I had the woman go get a laundry basket, a can of tuna, and I set another line right above
this cat and pulled the laundry basket up with the tuna and a bowl of water in it.
And this thing is like 70 feet up in the air.
I told her in her neighbor, "Here's how you get this cat down.
I want you to check this as frequently as you can see if the cat is in the basket and
(35:10):
lower down the cat.
Got in the basket ate all the food and she lowered it down the next morning.
It was great."
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