January 15, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, we speak with Daryl McCollin about his journey in the film and media industry.
Daryl shares how he got his start, the challenges he’s faced as someone from an underrepresented background, and whether he’s seen improvements in diversity during his career.
He reflects on the importance of allies in his journey and offers advice for handling resistance and lack of support in the workplace.
Daryl also discusses what’s needed to create more diversity, equity, and inclusion in media, and how both individuals and organisations can make a difference.
A candid and insightful conversation about breaking barriers in the industry.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:21):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
our Zing Learning podcast and conversation with.
Today we are joined by filmmaker Daryl McCollin,
who will share some fantastic aspects about his
journey in the media industry and also some
really great insights into what it's like to
be from an underrepresented background in this space.
(00:44):
Now we're going to hear how he got his start,
the obstacles he's faced as a black gay man who
also has a disability, and also how allies have, or
sometimes haven't supported him along the way.
He'll also dive into the progress that he's
actually seen in the industry as well.
Plus, we'll get an opportunity to get some
(01:04):
really great ideas and suggestions and tips from
him and his experience to help people in
the industry to be way more inclusive.
Let's get started.
So grab a cuppa, kick back and take a listen.
So, hello and welcome to this episode.
Today we have an absolutely fantastic guest with us.
(01:26):
We have Daryl Dyer with us who is
an absolute superstar in the filmmaking industry.
And we're really excited to have him
here talking about loads of different aspects
of intersectionality, but also how that is
represented in the filmmaking industry as well.
So I'm not going to introduce Daryl.
I'm going to get Daryl to introduce himself.
Daryl, tell us a little bit about who you are and
(01:47):
your career and all of those sorts of wonderful things.
Hi, I'm Daryl Dyer.
I'm a filmmaker, director, and I
got into the film industry. I was.
Just had a love and a fascination for
it since a young age, you know, I've
always had, you know, loved watching films.
This is vhs back in the day, showing my age.
I just loved the medium
(02:08):
of storytelling through visual communication.
And from that, I decided to.
Oh, I didn't actually decide.
I just kind of fell into it.
I went to do my GCSE's.
I chose drama, doing my GCSE's and
found that I was natural for it.
My teacher was so encouraging and really kind of, you know, spurred
me on to do it and I just had love for it.
(02:28):
And then what I'd done is, whilst I was
studying my GCSE's, I went on to this.
I think it's like a summer, like a summer
workshop or something like that you can go to.
And then when I went there, it's a great organisation.
I don't know if they still exist. I think they do.
It's called second wave.
And I went there in the summer and I
was doing that on, I think, like weekends.
And, you know, actually, when I
(02:50):
was doing that, through the.
Through the whole summer holidays.
And whilst I was there, I got into
a lead role and I was like, ah.
And then at the end of the workshop, we performed it.
It was at the Albany Theatre in Deptford.
And it was just a great response and great reception.
I remember having this buzz when I was on stage and,
yeah, going from that, I then went to carry on.
(03:12):
I just wanted to carry on this
bug of, you know, drama and acting.
And my mate of mine had an old video
camera and we used to put, like, little action
sequences together and little drama pieces together and act
them out and edit, try and edit them all
on a video, eight VR tape, which is completely
different now because the digital world we're in.
And then from there, I went on to get into Brit school.
(03:35):
Brit school performed arts college when I was about 16.
And then from.
Whilst I was there, you know, I met some
great teachers and, you know, great people as well.
A lot of them actually, that still actually
doing work in industry now, which is great
to see and inspirational as well.
And whilst I was there, I got into,
I think they auditioned about 800 kids.
(03:57):
They went around the country, up and
down the country looking for it.
And it was a production called Storm Damage.
And it was written by Lenny James.
And one of the lead roles in it was Adrian Lester.
And I just remember, well, it was just a roller
coaster back then, do you know what I mean?
To get into a production like that.
And that was like the first experience I've had of
being on a film set outside of doing theatre.
(04:19):
I just remember whilst I was sitting there, I
was like, okay, I'm enjoying this, but I kind
of constantly was watching what the director was doing.
I was watching what behind the scenes was doing.
I remember sitting down and, you know, interviewing the
location manager and finding out what their role was
and, you know, finding out who does this.
And I just found this.
(04:40):
I just had this crazy kind of, like, discovery of that.
I really want to know what's going on behind the
scenes as well as being in front of the camera.
That bug there was like, okay, well, I'm studying now.
I need to carry on, finish what I'm doing at
Brit school, finish my course there, graduate there, and then
find out what my next journey is from that.
And then from there, I went on to
(05:01):
audition to try and get an agent.
At the time, it was quite difficult and challenging.
It was one of those worlds where
I didn't know what I was doing.
I was just doing, you know what I mean?
I was just, you know, and to not have the same kind of.
Just not have the right people
around me, I suppose, I think.
But at that age, you just kind of don't
really know where to position yourself, you know, how
(05:23):
to, you know, get on with it.
I remember I went to a few.
I remember when I actually got the role in storm
damaged, and I was actually going for an audition to
try and get an agent, and it was like in
the casting extras thing that I was trying to get.
And, you know, and I was like, oh, no.
I got into this film and I
was like, okay, well, what next?
Obviously, an agent that just deals with essays,
(05:44):
they call them now supported supporting artists.
So what I've done from there is I, when I got the infamous,
when I got the call, I was a stake about it, etc. Etc.
Got to the rap part, you know,
met loads of great people there.
And I remember wanting to, I found
(06:04):
out about, actually, they were doing a
production of the Stephen Lawrence case.
They were talking about, oh, why don't
you go and audition for that?
And I was like, well, how can I?
I didn't know how to go about it.
It was just an opportunity.
It was like, they would love you
to go and audition for it. Go and do it.
I just didn't know how to assert myself then, really,
to try and explore these opportunities that were there.
(06:26):
And I remember the reason I couldn't take the
opportunity was because the issues I had whilst I
was at Brit school, there was always this friction
of me going on set filming storm damage.
So there weren't, the support weren't
really there to kind of.
I thought it weren't there.
And I remember having a conversation with one
of my tutors and saying to them, look,
(06:46):
I want to go and do this thing.
And they said, well, you're going to miss
out on doing key parts of your education.
But I'm just like, well, ain't this education
that I'm doing supposed to be part of
the journey that I'm already on?
Because that's what I'm professionally I'm going
to be doing when I graduate. When I graduate.
So why don't you support him in that?
And it completely threw me off.
I remember missing a key part of the technical process in
(07:08):
the filmmaking, which is where you have to do ADR, where
you have to go and, you know, when you're on.
I just explained to listeners what ADR is, is that
when you're in an environment, might be a public environment
or a place where there's not clear audio recordings or
there might be an issue with the audio recordings.
Before it gets to the sound mix, you have to go
through a process of ADR which allows you to do pickups
(07:32):
of the voice and making sure that you come across clearer
so it's easier or better for the post production process.
So, yeah, no, and then from that,
I just kind of just stopped.
I kind of stopped it for a while,
stopped the whole acting world for a while.
And then I got myself into working in retail,
then I got myself into management in retail.
(07:54):
And I remember when I was there, they were actually
doing, I think it was a few, about a year
later, they were actually doing the promo for storm damage
and they were all outside my shop in Brixton.
I was like, ah, so why come
she didn't ask me to cut that?
Anyway, then out there, whilst I was working in
management, there I was always knew that I needed
to become self employed because of my disability.
(08:15):
And from the challenges I had facing,
you know, the issue that I had
been disabled, it was a hidden disability.
So I had a lot of challenges there
where I couldn't progress to the next stage.
I remember having the opportunity to excel and, you know,
join head office and all that, because I was great
(08:35):
at my job, I was really great at my job
and I used to get poached from different stores to
go to different branches and that, because I used to
boost their sales amazingly, all that kind of stuff.
I remember one time actually, I was actually going
to quit my job because I couldn't afford to
get the rent paid or something like that.
So they gave me an extra top up in
my salary to make sure it covered my rent
because they didn't want me to leave the company.
(08:56):
So whilst I was there, you know, like
I said, I struggled with this whole full
time shift work as well as being there.
But then, remember, this was when the disability
discrimination act came in in 1999 and it
was still quite a new thing.
I'm not making excuses, but it sounds like I am.
This act comes in, but yet the human
resources department didn't want to recognise it.
(09:18):
They did. It's not.
They didn't want to recognise it, it's just the
way that they treated me, saying, oh, well, why
can so and so getting to work on time?
Why can so and so do this?
And kept on comparing me to other people and
I remember, I almost feel like I was going
to have a nervous breakdown because I'm like, hang
on a minute, I'm trying to get into work
on time and I remember, actually, I'll tell you
(09:39):
a couple of them scenarios I remember going into.
I used to work in
central London, Floral street, actually.
There used to be a lot of fashion brands there
in menswear, and there used to be this little underpass
that everyone used to take shortcuts to get in.
So I took the shortcut to get in
to not basically the top of the wall.
It's like a kind of. I can explain it.
It's like a tight underpass next to this pub.
(10:01):
People most probably know it, like, you know
where I'm talking about, but knocked me clothesline,
mean, completely knocked me to the floor.
Do you know what I mean?
I was dressed in a suit, fell completely to the floor, nearly
passed out, and the next thing I know, I've got the head
office coming in saying to me, oh, why can so and so
get in on time and you can't get in on time?
And I constantly, constantly face this.
That's just one example of many.
(10:23):
And I just said, I just knew that
I needed to find a way out.
I needed to find a way of, you know,
when I say a way out, meaning that, you
know, still be independent, you know, earn an income.
But the only route I could
think of being self employed.
I remember when I was in hospital and I was being.
I had a load of electrodes attached to
(10:43):
my head and I'd go through this whole.
I was in this, like,
sleep clinic to monitor everything.
And I remember meeting this photographer.
He worked for Pinewood Studios, and he said,
look, mate, he said, like, if I.
If he weren't self employed, you know,
and he had narcolepsy as well.
So that was the kind of first time when I felt
I was understood, do you know what I mean, in terms
(11:05):
of meeting other people that have the same condition?
Because, I mean, back then it
was like quite a rare condition.
I mean, it still is now, but it's more recognised.
And, you know, most people know what narcolepsy is, but
at the time, no one really knew what it was. No one.
So, you know, so to hear that from.
And also the fact he was working in the
(11:26):
industry, you know, that's really interesting because it sounds
like that chance meeting in that sleep clinic when
you were there to understand your narcolepsy more, but
obviously helping with research and things like that, just
to really get answers on your own disability.
That chance meeting has had a massive impact on
your career because you were like, oh, okay.
(11:46):
It's not just me that has a disability that wants
to work or is working in the filmmaking industry.
There are other people like me.
So I think that that's such a beautiful chance meeting
and very serendipitous or however you want to word it.
And I think that there's moments
like that in everyone's career, right?
There's people that you meet that change the trajectory
(12:07):
of your career, even if it is just that
you see somebody like yourself in that space.
So I love that you got to have that.
I think that's really amazing.
I'm really interested to hear about
your experience from an intersectional level.
So I know you very well.
We've collaborated on projects before.
I've seen your films and your talent and
(12:27):
all of the amazing stuff that you've done.
But people listening won't really
understand your journey because.
Yeah, okay, so you've talked about your disability, that
you have narcolepsy, but actually you're also a black
man and you're also a gay black man and
you're also a gay black man that has a
disability and you're also a gay black man with
a disability that's come from a working class background.
(12:48):
So you've got quite a lot of intersecting
identities that are very underrepresented in your industry.
So I'm really interested to hear any of the obstacles
that you have faced and those sorts of things.
I know that you talked to me before
about not recognising and not having the networks
(13:09):
around you and that's been quite difficult.
But have you got any examples you can
share or anything about your experience as an
underrepresented, multi layered person in this industry?
I mean, I grew up in an estate and, you
know, it was because I don't walk around, you know,
being the stereotype, the visual stereotype that people.
(13:30):
That people see, unless you really know me, because
I'm quite expressive, it was always kind of one
of the things that I just didn't really.
I told my friends about my sexuality, I told my
family from a very young age, but then anything outside
of that, I just didn't want to bring any issues
or anything like that to anyone around me.
You know, I didn't want it to make it
(13:51):
a thing, you know, I didn't want it to
be my main identity of what I'm about.
You know, it's a hard one because, I mean,
I grew up in quite a liberal family and,
you know, that weren't really an issue there.
I think when you face out the
outside world, it's a completely different story.
And I think when you having to, you know, fight my
(14:15):
battles in a way that kind of fit it in.
I'll tell you a story. Basically.
I remember, I remember I was working in a well
known fast food chain and I, this guy was kind
of spreading all this gossip around the, you know, and
started ah, you know, you know that Daryl's gay and
da da da and all this kind of stuff.
(14:35):
And I was like, so I thought I
needed, I need to sort this out.
I really need to sort this out.
I need to address it.
So I addressed, I know.
I mean, back then, you, you'd have to, you know,
put yourself or assert yourself in a certain way just
to make sure people didn't take liberties in that way.
And kind of, you know, if it weren't so what I'd
(14:56):
done is I waited until it was on our lunch break.
So I cornered this guy and I just said, tim, look,
I said, I've heard that you've been saying XYz about me.
You don't know me.
I said, don't be chatting.
I'm so sorry.
You know, it all simmered then.
But I shouldn't, I've two things.
One, I shouldn't have had to feel that way.
(15:17):
To feel that I have to be, ah, yeah, I'm the big man.
You know, I'm not saying the big man, but kind
of have a, you know, when you're young used about
reputation and you know, you didn't want, you know.
And obviously things have come a massive, massive
long way, you know, compared to even, you
know, think about the eighties and seventies.
Anyway, what my point is things have, you know,
(15:40):
moved on, but there's still that stigma there, that
slander there, that, that thing of being ah, you
know, you should be ashamed of this.
This is disgusted.
I didn't come from a religious background, but I
just thought to myself, hang on a minute.
This guy don't know me.
The only people that can speak about that
are the people that are close to me.
You know, I mean, that know me.
So why is this random guy out there trying to
(16:03):
make me look bad in some kind of way?
So, but what, going back to what I was
saying, I shouldn't have to feel necessary to even
confront him in an aggressive manner to say, don't
be talking my business like that.
I shouldn't have to do that or I
shouldn't have to feel compelled to do that.
So yeah, so that's how to do it.
Just kind of shut him down, you know?
So I'm just really interested to know,
(16:23):
have you experienced any obstacles as somebody
from a variety of underrepresented backgrounds in
the industry that you're currently working in.
It's a hard one to answer that because
the reason I'm saying it's hard for me
to answer because obviously we're trying.
When you're trying to win a job, you're just
focused on getting that job, getting that proposal out.
Because when you are focused on winning the work,
(16:43):
and I actually think that's a really nice answer
because you're saying you're focused on that.
And then there might be some other things.
So, you know, like under representation.
So there's not people that look at act like you.
You were talking a minute ago about the guy
who met in the sleep clinic and stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I'm.
When it was, I mean, yeah, I mean, like, you know, the guy
that I met in the sleep clinic, he was a white guy.
(17:04):
What I felt growing like, you know, in
working in the industry is, is that there
ain't many people that look like me, so.
But not in a way to be like, you know,
because there's loads of directors out there that are black.
There's loads of, you know, actors
out there that are black.
You know, there's like, they're, you
know, you know, on mixed race.
You know, you know, there.
(17:25):
There is that representation there, but it's.
When do all of those
representations still align with you?
So it's, you know, so there might be, you know, when I.
When I say, do I day align with you?
Are they also accessible?
You know, you might see these people, okay, it might
be someone in America, or it might be someone in,
(17:45):
you know, you know, that you just don't know how
to get in contact with these people or even.
So what my point being is, is that if I'm,
you know, watching tv and I'm not seeing any form
of representation on the tv, that's my first point of
call, of communication, of not seeing that.
But yet are there many people out there saying, I hate.
(18:07):
This is a hard one because I hate using labels like
the gay label, you know, or any label in that sense.
When I say I hate using that, is that I don't. I just.
I'm just living my life.
And if I experience microaggressions within that, sometimes I
have to then read why those microaggressions are existing
and why they are happening in that sense, and
(18:28):
be like, okay, whether I'm, you know, my physical
appearance, you know, you know, it might be intimidating
for some people or it might be off putting
for some people until they know me.
But what I always use.
What I always used to find is that what
I do with myself is I challenge myself.
So I'll go to, you know, whether
it's certain networking environments where other filmmakers
(18:49):
are, whether it's a corporate environment, and
I challenge myself to break that barrier.
So I always say to myself, okay, well, that
person probably will never come and speak to me.
I need to go and speak to them. Do you see what I mean?
Unless you kind of assert yourself in that way.
Sometimes people just.
Sometimes I'm at different events, whether it's
(19:12):
screening, you know, a film festival or,
you know, another environment where, you know,
other filmmakers may be or media people.
And unless you are, unless you.
Unless you take yourself. Sorry.
Unless you go and actually approach them, sometimes
(19:33):
I feel that conversation will never happen.
Do you see what I mean?
And, but then sometimes I'm telling myself,
is it me thinking like that?
Or are they thinking the same thing that I'm thinking?
Is it this? Is it that?
And you stand, then you have to start going,
you know, through, oh, is it because I'm black?
Is it because I'm, you know, I'm quite,
you know, I'm, you know, I'm a bit.
I'm six foot and I'm a broad guy, you know what I mean?
(19:55):
So I'm not like, you know, for some people, that
might be, whether it's a female, whether it's someone that
feels vulnerable or whatever it may be, I'm not.
And again, I hate putting all these things into different
boxes because of the way I just see myself.
Do you know, I mean, and how I assert myself.
Yeah, I think that's really interesting about
that concept of you are having to.
(20:17):
It sounds like you're having to make a lot
more effort in those spaces to try and understand
how other people are feeling and how they're thinking.
And that's quite a lot of work that you have
to do, like additional work that you have to do
in these corporate spaces just to make sure that you're
anticipating how somebody else is going to accept you.
And then if it's not quite matching
(20:37):
your expectations, you're then in your head. Right?
Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm gay?
Is it because I'm this?
Is it because I'm that?
Is it because I'm six foot and abroad, all of
these things that you have to internalise because of, I
think, a lot of lack of representation in general.
But, of course, things have changed.
We know in the filmmaking industry that
(21:00):
there's much better representation on screen.
Now we know behind the scenes we see
a much better representation across the board.
There's still a hell of a lot of work to do.
I think that's what's making a big difference now to
filmmakers that are coming through that are much younger.
You know, if you were 20 years younger and you were
coming through now, how different it would be for you.
(21:21):
And like you say, things are different
in the seventies and eighties and.
And how different it would have been for you then.
So it's just.
I find that quite interesting.
What's great is that, yeah, things have come a long
way, and there is still, I would say, even in
the last few years, really, in terms of productions that
have got, you know, storylines and narratives that are.
That represented black and gay, I think it's like, only
(21:43):
the last few years, really kind of starting to see
that, you know, and obviously, the fact we've got RuPaul's
drag race in the UK on screen, which is great
as well, but I think it's rarely that you get
the same representation is reflected in the cast.
Sorry, in the crew.
So you might.
You might get a great storyline of what they're
(22:04):
outputting, you know, because I remember when there was
this whole tick box thing, it's like some kind
of film industry policy or something like that, that,
you know, your film has to be representative.
This community. I know it. I know it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, and I was like, okay, so there's
like a whole tick box thing that, you know, but
the main thing that I was trying to get across
(22:25):
in my response is saying that it's.
The crew are very, very rarely same
form of representation as that is.
You know, so you might get a script that's a
production that's been greenlit and all of that, but then
as soon as you go behind and you meet the
crew behind the making of that production, it's rarely that
(22:49):
you get a really full, diverse crew.
You're seeing a lot more of it now.
But still, even in the senior roles
within those productions are still not representative.
In the right way.
Yeah, in the right way.
Just not representative. Yeah.
And I think you're so right.
And I think you're right.
There's progression on screen and off screen, but
(23:10):
it's not matching the progression on screen.
You know, the stuff that we're seeing in the
mainstream media and those things is definitely massively increasing,
but we're miles behind with the progression.
Like you say, the second you go to a senior
position and listen, this is not just the filmmaking industry.
This is every single industry.
You know, you've got this extreme, extremely diverse
(23:31):
group of people at those lower levels, those
more entry level roles in an organisation.
The further up you go, the more homogenous people get,
and that's just typically what you see, and that's power
thing, and that's a big part of the work that
we do and a lot of organisations like ours do.
So I think that's quite an interesting point.
And it's definitely something I know you have experienced because
(23:53):
obviously you're a director as well as a producer as
well as an editor as well as all of these.
And you work a lot with the on screen cast
as well as you do, obviously, behind the scenes, you're
seeing these things changing, you're seeing the on screen cast
changing and progressing much quicker to represent the audiences that
we're playing out to, to behind the scenes.
(24:14):
I do know that there's organisations we
work with, a really big media organisation,
which you and I are partnered with.
They're doing a lot of work behind the scenes just
as much as on screen, so that's really amazing.
But, yeah, it's a big old push.
It's not something that's naturally happening.
And I think that's why representation
is so, so, so important. Definitely.
I've got one example, an obstacle, I feel, of events
(24:37):
and artist management and also film events as well.
And I remember having to fill out a form
because if any of the artists that I was
working with are basically music of black origin, and
I think it was called 969 form or something
like that, there was a whole form that the
police released for risk assessments and stuff like that.
(24:57):
And you'd have to put what genre of
music you would actually be putting on because
otherwise you weren't allowed to, etc. Etc.
And I remember in the west end, they got
rid of a lot of music where it's.
Whether it's r and b, dance, all that kind of thing.
And I felt that was a, like, in terms
of when you said about obstacles, I think in
terms of, like, trying to move forward about, you
(25:17):
know, I'm just here represent, you know, filming this
event representing some of these artists and you're saying,
I can't have certain music origin.
It's like, you know, it was just one of things.
There's all these little things that you.
That happen throughout your journey and it's kind of like it
was one of them that's like, okay, well, you know, it
kind of set me back a bit in terms of, you
know, so that's I use that an example and that might
(25:40):
not directly relate of what the question was, but you know,
it was just how you meant to progress just getting on
with the work that you want to do if you're constantly
having to fight these fights. Yeah.
And I think that's a really important point that
a lot of people forget about with the work
that we do is we're not trying to add
to managers and senior leaders and stuff work.
(26:00):
We're trying to create a space where
people can be as productive as possible.
I saw a post from, it's another
filmmaker I know on LinkedIn today.
And it was a really simple post.
It was a picture of him and a few people in his team
and he said, do you know how my team is so diverse?
And they literally put, because I hire
the best people and I love that.
(26:21):
I think that's so true.
And the thing is, if you hire the best
people and you give them the space to do
the best work and you don't question everything they're
doing and try and control everything they're doing, then
naturally you're going to have naturally diverse teams and
they're going to be reaching their potential.
It's a no brainer.
We've seen all the science,
we've seen all the research.
There's lots of studies to show that
(26:42):
this is really beneficial to organisations.
So we're not trying to control the way
leaders and managers are managing their teams.
We're trying to create a way in
which to make it easier for them.
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.
Okay, so I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts just on some allies that you found
throughout your career because I know that you've
(27:04):
got some really amazing people that you work
with and you've collaborated with in the past.
Do you have any stories or any
particular people that have supported you within
your career in an allyship way?
Yeah, I mean, I think.
Let's start from the beginning, Hunter.
I mean, I think having mentors or
(27:29):
mentorships are such an important thing.
And reflecting on this particular question. Yeah, I do.
My cousin's a colorist and he works for a production house
and we, you know, he's gave me working with him.
I mean, we've worked for many years on different
projects over the years and it allowed me to
(27:51):
get an insight into that world and along that,
you know, he's been very supportive on my projects
and, you know, and, you know, developing certain projects.
And also I've got a childhood friend as well,
Michelle, and she's, you know, she's been very, very
supportive in terms of encouraging me with my writing
and my, you know, my directing.
(28:12):
You know, I mean, I've directed many
short films before we, even before me
and her collaborated, but then we collaborated.
And then I think because I've got that connection
from childhood with her having that as an ally
there in terms of, you know, really supporting what
I'm doing, I think it helped unlock my potentials
(28:34):
knowing where I could actually go with this.
Yeah, she's done doing well in her, her world.
She's a comedian and an actor as
well as a producer as well.
And she.
Yeah, she's encouraging me in many ways.
I've also had the opportunity as well,
being mentored under a really, really good
director, amazing director called Kieran Hawks.
(28:55):
He's just done a production called
Red Eye, which is on ITV.
And, yeah, I mean, he's been really, really great,
you know, and just, just introduced me to his
world and allowed me to, you know, go on
set with him and, you know, just kind of.
Yeah, just being there, really in the sense of when
(29:18):
I say being there, meaning that it's just the mentoring.
Mentoring is such a key thing.
And in terms of when you say ally, I mean, you
know, they've, all of these people have helped me in some
way and there's really loads more that I can think of.
No. Is there? No.
Yeah, that's a fair few. Yeah. Yeah.
So, I mean, they're the key, I would say at
(29:39):
the moment, they're the key people that are quite instrumental
in terms of me progressing in my field.
And because they're all actively in the industry, professionally doing this
on a day to day basis, it just allows me to
get real insight of how I can move in the right
direction that I need to move in to.
(30:00):
And I think that having that's invaluable. You know?
But you know, that having.
When I say having, that's invaluable, meaning
that they start, you just, you can't
read this stuff in textbook.
You got to meet the right people.
You've got to align yourself with the right
people, and also you've got to turn up
and be present and be, you know. Yeah.
So I feel quite fortunate in that sense and grateful,
(30:22):
very grateful that, you know, that I do have these
people around me, but it's taken a while to kind
of shape that and making sure that you've got the
right people around you, encouraging in the right way.
I mean, there's loads of other people along the
way, but, you know, again, you've got to be
ready for it as well in yourself.
What I really liked there.
So when you were talking about your cousin Max, I really
(30:44):
loved the way you were describing, the way that he. He.
Yeah, yeah.
That he actually opened that
space up for your learning. And I think that there's
something about those safes spaces.
Again, it's something we talk about
a lot in the learning field.
We talk about it massively in the DEI learning field, but
of course, it goes across every area of our life.
(31:05):
We need safe spaces in our family, within our friendship
groups, at work, in our, you know, in our social
lives and all of that sort of stuff.
So the fact that he's helped to open it up is amazing.
And I love the mentoring as well with
Kieran because that's someone so closely connected to
exactly what you want to do.
And I also know you talk very highly of Michelle
quite a lot, and I know that there's a lot
(31:25):
of work you've done together as well, and she's been
able to bring you in on things.
And I think that there's something about not just
advocating for someone and not just helping people to
build their confidence, but even just going, come on
into this space because it's a massive, massive challenge
in the filmmaking industry, because there's a lot of
nepotism in the industry.
It's not something that people don't know.
(31:47):
Everybody is very aware of, of it.
So actually, there's a lot of other people
that are, I guess, are using nepotism in
the underrepresented space and saying, you know what?
I got in here, so I'm going to help you get
in here, rather than pushing back, saying, I had to work
really hard, so you have to work really hard.
And you see this a lot in the woman space as well.
(32:08):
There's a lot of women that can become very
senior and do some amazing work and have to
smash through loads of ridiculous stereotypes and put up
with a load of harassment and rubbish stuff.
And then some of those women, unfortunately, don't feel
like they want to help other people because they're
thinking, well, I had to work really hard, so.
So do you.
Yeah, but there are, on the flip side,
(32:29):
a lot of women that are doing really
amazing things, constantly opening doors for other women.
And I love that you're having that from lots
of different dimensions of your identity as well.
So you've got lots of different
allies in lots of different spaces.
That's really nice to hear.
On the flip side then, have there been any
instances where you've actually encountered, I guess, lack of
(32:51):
support, maybe a bit of resistance for people that
you've worked with because of any of your identities.
That's a hard one because I say, I say that's a
hard one only because I know that there's maybe been a
lot of pushback on certain things I've read the way, you
know, I present myself or the way I talk.
You know, the main thing that I've found the lack
(33:13):
of support of around is my disability because I think
the reason I'm using that as an example as opposed
to my sexuality and, you know, my ethnic origin is
that's what affects me day in, day out, in a
way that kind of like, you know, and because it's
a hidden thing, I know how it's infecting me.
You know, I'm walking the sh.
(33:35):
I'm in that, you know, I'm in
the body of who's got the narcolepsy.
So I know how it affects me.
But then there's been so many different
environments where I feel like I've.
Why have I been just not being
accepted or supported in the right way?
Because they don't recognise it. Do you see what I mean?
(33:55):
Because I present myself in a certain way,
I'll, you know, because I'm not in a
wheelchair and I don't walk around with.
And, you know, and it's
not that obvious and recognised.
And also as well, whether people recognise this as
a disability or not, it is a disability.
So it's the fact that, you know, you're kind
(34:16):
of like, oh, no, well, you know, that didn't
make sense, what you said there, or the way
you wrote that, or, you know, if you're not.
If you don't conform in a certain way to
society and the way things need to be appear.
That's why when things like, you know, AI came out.
Chat GC that's amazing for someone who's
got disability, because it allows you to,
(34:37):
you know, meticulously go through things.
The amount of stuff that I have to get people to read,
you know, to proofread for me before I can actually send it
out, you know, I have to go through a process.
I suppose everyone else does go through a
process, but my process is like, actually, I'm
just missing the basics here sometimes.
(34:58):
But in terms of the lack of support, I think it's more.
Yeah, just people not taking the time
to recognise these things, you know, that.
To recognise that, you know, this person might need
a little extra support here or, you know, a
little bit more understanding of what they're going through.
The industry moves at such a fast pace and if
(35:18):
you're not part of that pace, you're not included.
And therefore the amount of work.
Yeah, no, that's spot on.
What is hard work?
Yeah.
The amount of extra work that an
individual with a disability has to take.
I myself, people don't see that process.
(35:39):
People don't see that struggle that you deal with
to even be, to even have a chance, you
know, I mean, to even, you know.
So therefore when you do get to.
And don't be wrong, I suppose every industry has
a standard that you have to adhere to.
That's the stats that, you
know, that goes without saying.
But I think when you get to that
(35:59):
standard sometimes is that your other talents don't
get recognised if you're not hitting that thing.
So therefore, you know, especially in the media world,
I think sometimes that, you know, there's so many
creative individuals out there that will, you know, just
don't get looking because they can't either talk the
talk or, you know, or even have that environment
(36:19):
where they can be like, okay, you know, all
the stuff I know as well.
I mean, you know, I, even though I
did go to a performance college, outside of
that, the production process, it's all self taught.
I've had to sit down and learn this stuff.
And really, like I said, I've written loads of
short films and directed some short films as well.
But you still have to go through that process as well.
(36:41):
But the thing is, it's a team effort so you've
got to make sure you're on the right team for
you, for yourself to be able to shine because what
you'd end up doing, I remember like even just short
film like that was recently in festival last year and
I remember we was actually doing a take, you know,
I'm the director, remember that?
You know, so I'm like I can't, I can't have
(37:03):
my disability affect that, you know, it just can't happen.
And I'm telling my.
And I'm fighting and people don't realise, you know, that
why, you know, the little mechanisms I have to do
to make sure that I'm on my game, you know,
and, you know, little, you know, and you know, whether
I'm drinking a lot of coffee where from, you know,
(37:23):
sometimes I find myself, I push my, I have to
push my nail into my finger to make sure I'm
conscious because otherwise if I drift, I can't do, I
mean, this, you know, you can't have that, you.
So it's yeah, but then there's loads of.
There's loads of positive sides of them having
a condition like narcolepsy because I'm always in
(37:44):
and out of a dreamlike state.
It allows me to visualise things as if
they were happening in the real world.
You know, I always say to people, I lead them,
you know, a double reality because, you know, my narcolepsy,
well, it's almost like an endless tv series.
You know, if I get a brief or if I'm writing
a brief for a client or if I'm writing a piece
(38:04):
for any script that I'm working on, I can put my.
Not even put myself, I can drift
into that space and really feel that
what's happening is actually happening for real.
So I think there's positives in many different things,
you know, things like autism and stuff, like there's
so many disabilities where there's a positive side to
having that disability and it also makes you individual.
(38:26):
I mean, so it makes you unique in what you
do, but still, there's still that, you know, you know,
you've got to be part of society, you've got to
be on form, you've got to be there.
Yeah, yeah.
It's really interesting that you're talking about some of
the techniques that you've had to develop to fit
(38:46):
within society's norms and to make sure you can
function in a way that everybody is expecting somebody
to function, because obviously you and I have had
conversations before and I can see when.
I can see the difference now when
you're about to kind of lose consciousness.
So that's obviously we've got a really good
relationship, but I'm able to say to you,
(39:07):
should we have this conversation later?
And then you're like, yeah, thank you.
And then you'll go away. Yeah.
And you'll be able to deal with it.
But, you know, that's such a small thing
for people to be able to do that.
It's not a big, massive thing for organisations to
spend loads of money and change loads of policies,
which is what I think a lot of organisations
think, especially when it comes to disability.
(39:28):
A lot of the time, like you say, it's making
sure you're on the right team and that you do
connect and that you do share these things with each
other, because actually, if you're in a safe and a
space that you can tell people this about yourself and
you know that there's not going to be any judgement,
then actually they can do something as simple as keep
an eye on when you're changing and you're starting to
(39:48):
drift and actually go, do you know what?
This conversation isn't that important right now.
Let's chat a bit.
Nice and easy, right?
It's not a difficult thing to do.
I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts just as we finish off.
Just your thoughts on just one thing or a couple
of things that organisations could do to help build better
representation and just to be able to support their people
(40:11):
a lot better when they're coming into work.
Whether it's to do with disability, whether it's to.
With race, class, any of those sorts of things,
I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts.
So I'm going to go into one now.
Like, you know, over the years there's
been many great people in different organisations.
They got human side to them as well
as obviously really good at their job.
And I think recognising great talent within an organisation
(40:36):
to help foster or, you know, the culture of
that organisation to help it grow, I think there's
so many people that have been let go of
different, over the years, different people I work with
and that's been let go from certain businesses and
that, and I'm just like, well, you know, they
offered something and I think organisations don't recognise some
talents that they've got already there.
(40:57):
And I think mentorship programmes
are such, so important. So important.
I mean, the first time I had a mentor, when I was.
I was actually school when I had a mentor and
they were a screenwriter and a guy called Troy and
he was amazing in terms of like, you know, the
support that he, you know, and that.
And that's the first time I even heard the word mentor.
Mentorship or mentoring, I didn't even know what
(41:18):
it meant, you know, when I was.
And I was like, this is what it is.
So I was quite fortunate in that sense.
But then, you know, there was a whole
load of students that got overlooked, didn't have
that opportunity to have a mentor.
But I think in terms of answering
your question of individuals and organisations is
building in those mentorship programme structures.
(41:40):
You know, I think it's so important that
that happens because, like I said, it allows
you to just identify and foster great talent.
And I think, you know, within mentorship programmes
as well, it's great that, you know, if
that person, you've got to allow that person
to make some mistakes, obviously there's about.
I mean, I think we spoke about this
before about, you know, you know, as an
(42:01):
employee yourself, kind of the limitations that.
Okay, how many mistakes you allow someone
to make before they have to change.
You know, how much do you tolerate as
a business for someone to make mistakes?
But I think if you've got a mentorship programme, you're
aware of those barriers or it allows an element of
some people to make some mistakes, but also it allows
(42:25):
you to recognise amazing talent at the same time.
And then that way, as an organisation, you can
make that call whether you should be even be
the organisation to have this person in your business
or whether you should be putting them onto another
programme or, you know, you know, you help them
on the stepping stone where they need to go.
But I think, you know, that the challenges
and that people that are facing in, whether
(42:47):
it's in marginalised communities, you know, those challenges
there, having the opportunity to even just excel
and be the best person you can be.
I think organisations need to understand mentorship
programmes as such a key thing.
And I think a lot of organisations don't
because they're too busy running their business.
They're running their business, but they don't realise
(43:09):
then if I have a mentorship programme that
helps foster this talent, that also helps increase
culture, the organization's outlook, you know, I think
as well, I mean, it's.
What a lot of organisations suffer is not
suffer with, sorry, what organisations struggle with is
connecting with certain communities and outreaching to certain
(43:30):
communities and they say, oh, we want these
voices in our business, we want these voices.
But because they don't invest in that and they're not
focused on that, then, you know, on paper they might
be going, okay, we're going to do this, we're going
to do that, we're going to do this. But.
But are you really doing it or
are you just ticking a box?
You know, and I think you're right, I
think the intention is definitely there a lot.
(43:54):
Some organisations, not so much, and I was talking
about this with somebody recently, which is there's sometimes
when you get approached by an organisation to work
for them and you realise they're just ticking boxes
and we realise there's no point working with them
because if they're not interested in truly doing something
with it, nothing's going to happen with it.
It's going to be a waste of our time,
waste of their time and damage to our reputation.
(44:15):
But I do think a lot of organisations do
have good intentions, but their impact doesn't match because
they want those quick wins and that's the challenge.
When you're working on culture, when you're working
with humans, we don't change our behaviours quickly.
We don't kind of all fall and step into line like
you would expect in the army and stuff like that.
(44:35):
Everybody has their own creative mind, their own logical
mind, their own way of working, their own personal
lives, all of that sort of stuff.
So I think that you're spot on with
the mentorship programmes because that's something that companies
have to be really patient with.
Because it takes time for
mentorship programmes to work.
You can normally see a difference in somebody quite quickly,
(44:56):
but actually, for it to really land as a cultural
piece of work, it does take time and I think
that is how a lot of organisations are falling.
So I think that's a really, really interesting
one for you to pick up there.
And I want to thank you so much for spending the
time with me today because I got to learn more about
you and I felt like I knew lots about you already.
(45:17):
And I think there's people listening to this,
whether or not they're in the film making
industry, I think they're going to be able
to take away something really useful.
And I love that you've been able to really
connect that community aspect with what organisations are missing,
because it sounds spot on to me.
It's definitely my experience of working across the
world with lots of different organisations, for sure.
(45:39):
So thank you so much for taking the time to me today.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for
joining us in today's conversation.
What a fantastic guest I love to have.
He was able to share some really powerful insights
into what it's really like to navigate this type
(46:00):
of industry, especially the media industry in general.
As somebody that's from various different underrepresented backgrounds, and
I think some of the things he said about
the importance of allies and the changes that still
need to be made to make it even more
inclusive, really helpful as well.
We hope this episode has given you a
freshen perspective on the challenges and also the
(46:22):
opportunities that we can make within the industry.
And listen, if you enjoyed this, don't forget to
follow us on LinkedIn and share with other people.
Until next time. We'll see you soon.
Hello and welcome to another episode of
our Zing Learning podcast and conversation with.
Today we are joined by filmmaker Daryl McCollin,
who will share some fantastic aspects about his
journey in the media industry and also some
really great insights into what it's like to
be from an underrepresented background in this space.
(00:44):
Now we're going to hear how he got his start,
the obstacles he's faced as a black gay man who
also has a disability, and also how allies have, or
sometimes haven't supported him along the way.
He'll also dive into the progress that he's
actually seen in the industry as well.
Plus, we'll get an opportunity to get some
(01:04):
really great ideas and suggestions and tips from
him and his experience to help people in
the industry to be way more inclusive.
Let's get started.
So grab a cuppa, kick back and take a listen.
So, hello and welcome to this episode.
Today we have an absolutely fantastic guest with us.
(01:26):
We have Daryl Dyer with us who is
an absolute superstar in the filmmaking industry.
And we're really excited to have him
here talking about loads of different aspects
of intersectionality, but also how that is
represented in the filmmaking industry as well.
So I'm not going to introduce Daryl.
I'm going to get Daryl to introduce himself.
Daryl, tell us a little bit about who you are and
(01:47):
your career and all of those sorts of wonderful things.
Hi, I'm Daryl Dyer.
I'm a filmmaker, director, and I
got into the film industry. I was.
Just had a love and a fascination for
it since a young age, you know, I've
always had, you know, loved watching films.
This is vhs back in the day, showing my age.
I just loved the medium
(02:08):
of storytelling through visual communication.
And from that, I decided to.
Oh, I didn't actually decide.
I just kind of fell into it.
I went to do my GCSE's.
I chose drama, doing my GCSE's and
found that I was natural for it.
My teacher was so encouraging and really kind of, you know, spurred
me on to do it and I just had love for it.
(02:28):
And then what I'd done is, whilst I was
studying my GCSE's, I went on to this.
I think it's like a summer, like a summer
workshop or something like that you can go to.
And then when I went there, it's a great organisation.
I don't know if they still exist. I think they do.
It's called second wave.
And I went there in the summer and I
was doing that on, I think, like weekends.
And, you know, actually, when I
(02:50):
was doing that, through the.
Through the whole summer holidays.
And whilst I was there, I got into
a lead role and I was like, ah.
And then at the end of the workshop, we performed it.
It was at the Albany Theatre in Deptford.
And it was just a great response and great reception.
I remember having this buzz when I was on stage and,
yeah, going from that, I then went to carry on.
(03:12):
I just wanted to carry on this
bug of, you know, drama and acting.
And my mate of mine had an old video
camera and we used to put, like, little action
sequences together and little drama pieces together and act
them out and edit, try and edit them all
on a video, eight VR tape, which is completely
different now because the digital world we're in.
And then from there, I went on to get into Brit school.
(03:35):
Brit school performed arts college when I was about 16.
And then from.
Whilst I was there, you know, I met some
great teachers and, you know, great people as well.
A lot of them actually, that still actually
doing work in industry now, which is great
to see and inspirational as well.
And whilst I was there, I got into,
I think they auditioned about 800 kids.
(03:57):
They went around the country, up and
down the country looking for it.
And it was a production called Storm Damage.
And it was written by Lenny James.
And one of the lead roles in it was Adrian Lester.
And I just remember, well, it was just a roller
coaster back then, do you know what I mean?
To get into a production like that.
And that was like the first experience I've had of
being on a film set outside of doing theatre.
(04:19):
I just remember whilst I was sitting there, I
was like, okay, I'm enjoying this, but I kind
of constantly was watching what the director was doing.
I was watching what behind the scenes was doing.
I remember sitting down and, you know, interviewing the
location manager and finding out what their role was
and, you know, finding out who does this.
And I just found this.
(04:40):
I just had this crazy kind of, like, discovery of that.
I really want to know what's going on behind the
scenes as well as being in front of the camera.
That bug there was like, okay, well, I'm studying now.
I need to carry on, finish what I'm doing at
Brit school, finish my course there, graduate there, and then
find out what my next journey is from that.
And then from there, I went on to
(05:01):
audition to try and get an agent.
At the time, it was quite difficult and challenging.
It was one of those worlds where
I didn't know what I was doing.
I was just doing, you know what I mean?
I was just, you know, and to not have the same kind of.
Just not have the right people
around me, I suppose, I think.
But at that age, you just kind of don't
really know where to position yourself, you know, how
(05:23):
to, you know, get on with it.
I remember I went to a few.
I remember when I actually got the role in storm
damaged, and I was actually going for an audition to
try and get an agent, and it was like in
the casting extras thing that I was trying to get.
And, you know, and I was like, oh, no.
I got into this film and I
was like, okay, well, what next?
Obviously, an agent that just deals with essays,
(05:44):
they call them now supported supporting artists.
So what I've done from there is I, when I got the infamous,
when I got the call, I was a stake about it, etc. Etc.
Got to the rap part, you know,
met loads of great people there.
And I remember wanting to, I found
(06:04):
out about, actually, they were doing a
production of the Stephen Lawrence case.
They were talking about, oh, why don't
you go and audition for that?
And I was like, well, how can I?
I didn't know how to go about it.
It was just an opportunity.
It was like, they would love you
to go and audition for it. Go and do it.
I just didn't know how to assert myself then, really,
to try and explore these opportunities that were there.
(06:26):
And I remember the reason I couldn't take the
opportunity was because the issues I had whilst I
was at Brit school, there was always this friction
of me going on set filming storm damage.
So there weren't, the support weren't
really there to kind of.
I thought it weren't there.
And I remember having a conversation with one
of my tutors and saying to them, look,
(06:46):
I want to go and do this thing.
And they said, well, you're going to miss
out on doing key parts of your education.
But I'm just like, well, ain't this education
that I'm doing supposed to be part of
the journey that I'm already on?
Because that's what I'm professionally I'm going
to be doing when I graduate. When I graduate.
So why don't you support him in that?
And it completely threw me off.
I remember missing a key part of the technical process in
(07:08):
the filmmaking, which is where you have to do ADR, where
you have to go and, you know, when you're on.
I just explained to listeners what ADR is, is that
when you're in an environment, might be a public environment
or a place where there's not clear audio recordings or
there might be an issue with the audio recordings.
Before it gets to the sound mix, you have to go
through a process of ADR which allows you to do pickups
(07:32):
of the voice and making sure that you come across clearer
so it's easier or better for the post production process.
So, yeah, no, and then from that,
I just kind of just stopped.
I kind of stopped it for a while,
stopped the whole acting world for a while.
And then I got myself into working in retail,
then I got myself into management in retail.
(07:54):
And I remember when I was there, they were actually
doing, I think it was a few, about a year
later, they were actually doing the promo for storm damage
and they were all outside my shop in Brixton.
I was like, ah, so why come
she didn't ask me to cut that?
Anyway, then out there, whilst I was working in
management, there I was always knew that I needed
to become self employed because of my disability.
(08:15):
And from the challenges I had facing,
you know, the issue that I had
been disabled, it was a hidden disability.
So I had a lot of challenges there
where I couldn't progress to the next stage.
I remember having the opportunity to excel and, you know,
join head office and all that, because I was great
(08:35):
at my job, I was really great at my job
and I used to get poached from different stores to
go to different branches and that, because I used to
boost their sales amazingly, all that kind of stuff.
I remember one time actually, I was actually going
to quit my job because I couldn't afford to
get the rent paid or something like that.
So they gave me an extra top up in
my salary to make sure it covered my rent
because they didn't want me to leave the company.
(08:56):
So whilst I was there, you know, like
I said, I struggled with this whole full
time shift work as well as being there.
But then, remember, this was when the disability
discrimination act came in in 1999 and it
was still quite a new thing.
I'm not making excuses, but it sounds like I am.
This act comes in, but yet the human
resources department didn't want to recognise it.
(09:18):
They did. It's not.
They didn't want to recognise it, it's just the
way that they treated me, saying, oh, well, why
can so and so getting to work on time?
Why can so and so do this?
And kept on comparing me to other people and
I remember, I almost feel like I was going
to have a nervous breakdown because I'm like, hang
on a minute, I'm trying to get into work
on time and I remember, actually, I'll tell you
(09:39):
a couple of them scenarios I remember going into.
I used to work in
central London, Floral street, actually.
There used to be a lot of fashion brands there
in menswear, and there used to be this little underpass
that everyone used to take shortcuts to get in.
So I took the shortcut to get in
to not basically the top of the wall.
It's like a kind of. I can explain it.
It's like a tight underpass next to this pub.
(10:01):
People most probably know it, like, you know
where I'm talking about, but knocked me clothesline,
mean, completely knocked me to the floor.
Do you know what I mean?
I was dressed in a suit, fell completely to the floor, nearly
passed out, and the next thing I know, I've got the head
office coming in saying to me, oh, why can so and so
get in on time and you can't get in on time?
And I constantly, constantly face this.
That's just one example of many.
(10:23):
And I just said, I just knew that
I needed to find a way out.
I needed to find a way of, you know,
when I say a way out, meaning that, you
know, still be independent, you know, earn an income.
But the only route I could
think of being self employed.
I remember when I was in hospital and I was being.
I had a load of electrodes attached to
(10:43):
my head and I'd go through this whole.
I was in this, like,
sleep clinic to monitor everything.
And I remember meeting this photographer.
He worked for Pinewood Studios, and he said,
look, mate, he said, like, if I.
If he weren't self employed, you know,
and he had narcolepsy as well.
So that was the kind of first time when I felt
I was understood, do you know what I mean, in terms
(11:05):
of meeting other people that have the same condition?
Because, I mean, back then it
was like quite a rare condition.
I mean, it still is now, but it's more recognised.
And, you know, most people know what narcolepsy is, but
at the time, no one really knew what it was. No one.
So, you know, so to hear that from.
And also the fact he was working in the
(11:26):
industry, you know, that's really interesting because it sounds
like that chance meeting in that sleep clinic when
you were there to understand your narcolepsy more, but
obviously helping with research and things like that, just
to really get answers on your own disability.
That chance meeting has had a massive impact on
your career because you were like, oh, okay.
(11:46):
It's not just me that has a disability that wants
to work or is working in the filmmaking industry.
There are other people like me.
So I think that that's such a beautiful chance meeting
and very serendipitous or however you want to word it.
And I think that there's moments
like that in everyone's career, right?
There's people that you meet that change the trajectory
(12:07):
of your career, even if it is just that
you see somebody like yourself in that space.
So I love that you got to have that.
I think that's really amazing.
I'm really interested to hear about
your experience from an intersectional level.
So I know you very well.
We've collaborated on projects before.
I've seen your films and your talent and
(12:27):
all of the amazing stuff that you've done.
But people listening won't really
understand your journey because.
Yeah, okay, so you've talked about your disability, that
you have narcolepsy, but actually you're also a black
man and you're also a gay black man and
you're also a gay black man that has a
disability and you're also a gay black man with
a disability that's come from a working class background.
(12:48):
So you've got quite a lot of intersecting
identities that are very underrepresented in your industry.
So I'm really interested to hear any of the obstacles
that you have faced and those sorts of things.
I know that you talked to me before
about not recognising and not having the networks
(13:09):
around you and that's been quite difficult.
But have you got any examples you can
share or anything about your experience as an
underrepresented, multi layered person in this industry?
I mean, I grew up in an estate and, you
know, it was because I don't walk around, you know,
being the stereotype, the visual stereotype that people.
(13:30):
That people see, unless you really know me, because
I'm quite expressive, it was always kind of one
of the things that I just didn't really.
I told my friends about my sexuality, I told my
family from a very young age, but then anything outside
of that, I just didn't want to bring any issues
or anything like that to anyone around me.
You know, I didn't want it to make it
(13:51):
a thing, you know, I didn't want it to
be my main identity of what I'm about.
You know, it's a hard one because, I mean,
I grew up in quite a liberal family and,
you know, that weren't really an issue there.
I think when you face out the
outside world, it's a completely different story.
And I think when you having to, you know, fight my
(14:15):
battles in a way that kind of fit it in.
I'll tell you a story. Basically.
I remember, I remember I was working in a well
known fast food chain and I, this guy was kind
of spreading all this gossip around the, you know, and
started ah, you know, you know that Daryl's gay and
da da da and all this kind of stuff.
(14:35):
And I was like, so I thought I
needed, I need to sort this out.
I really need to sort this out.
I need to address it.
So I addressed, I know.
I mean, back then, you, you'd have to, you know,
put yourself or assert yourself in a certain way just
to make sure people didn't take liberties in that way.
And kind of, you know, if it weren't so what I'd
(14:56):
done is I waited until it was on our lunch break.
So I cornered this guy and I just said, tim, look,
I said, I've heard that you've been saying XYz about me.
You don't know me.
I said, don't be chatting.
I'm so sorry.
You know, it all simmered then.
But I shouldn't, I've two things.
One, I shouldn't have had to feel that way.
(15:17):
To feel that I have to be, ah, yeah, I'm the big man.
You know, I'm not saying the big man, but kind
of have a, you know, when you're young used about
reputation and you know, you didn't want, you know.
And obviously things have come a massive, massive
long way, you know, compared to even, you
know, think about the eighties and seventies.
Anyway, what my point is things have, you know,
(15:40):
moved on, but there's still that stigma there, that
slander there, that, that thing of being ah, you
know, you should be ashamed of this.
This is disgusted.
I didn't come from a religious background, but I
just thought to myself, hang on a minute.
This guy don't know me.
The only people that can speak about that
are the people that are close to me.
You know, I mean, that know me.
So why is this random guy out there trying to
(16:03):
make me look bad in some kind of way?
So, but what, going back to what I was
saying, I shouldn't have to feel necessary to even
confront him in an aggressive manner to say, don't
be talking my business like that.
I shouldn't have to do that or I
shouldn't have to feel compelled to do that.
So yeah, so that's how to do it.
Just kind of shut him down, you know?
So I'm just really interested to know,
(16:23):
have you experienced any obstacles as somebody
from a variety of underrepresented backgrounds in
the industry that you're currently working in.
It's a hard one to answer that because
the reason I'm saying it's hard for me
to answer because obviously we're trying.
When you're trying to win a job, you're just
focused on getting that job, getting that proposal out.
Because when you are focused on winning the work,
(16:43):
and I actually think that's a really nice answer
because you're saying you're focused on that.
And then there might be some other things.
So, you know, like under representation.
So there's not people that look at act like you.
You were talking a minute ago about the guy
who met in the sleep clinic and stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I'm.
When it was, I mean, yeah, I mean, like, you know, the guy
that I met in the sleep clinic, he was a white guy.
(17:04):
What I felt growing like, you know, in
working in the industry is, is that there
ain't many people that look like me, so.
But not in a way to be like, you know,
because there's loads of directors out there that are black.
There's loads of, you know, actors
out there that are black.
You know, there's like, they're, you
know, you know, on mixed race.
You know, you know, there.
(17:25):
There is that representation there, but it's.
When do all of those
representations still align with you?
So it's, you know, so there might be, you know, when I.
When I say, do I day align with you?
Are they also accessible?
You know, you might see these people, okay, it might
be someone in America, or it might be someone in,
(17:45):
you know, you know, that you just don't know how
to get in contact with these people or even.
So what my point being is, is that if I'm,
you know, watching tv and I'm not seeing any form
of representation on the tv, that's my first point of
call, of communication, of not seeing that.
But yet are there many people out there saying, I hate.
(18:07):
This is a hard one because I hate using labels like
the gay label, you know, or any label in that sense.
When I say I hate using that, is that I don't. I just.
I'm just living my life.
And if I experience microaggressions within that, sometimes I
have to then read why those microaggressions are existing
and why they are happening in that sense, and
(18:28):
be like, okay, whether I'm, you know, my physical
appearance, you know, you know, it might be intimidating
for some people or it might be off putting
for some people until they know me.
But what I always use.
What I always used to find is that what
I do with myself is I challenge myself.
So I'll go to, you know, whether
it's certain networking environments where other filmmakers
(18:49):
are, whether it's a corporate environment, and
I challenge myself to break that barrier.
So I always say to myself, okay, well, that
person probably will never come and speak to me.
I need to go and speak to them. Do you see what I mean?
Unless you kind of assert yourself in that way.
Sometimes people just.
Sometimes I'm at different events, whether it's
(19:12):
screening, you know, a film festival or,
you know, another environment where, you know,
other filmmakers may be or media people.
And unless you are, unless you.
Unless you take yourself. Sorry.
Unless you go and actually approach them, sometimes
(19:33):
I feel that conversation will never happen.
Do you see what I mean?
And, but then sometimes I'm telling myself,
is it me thinking like that?
Or are they thinking the same thing that I'm thinking?
Is it this? Is it that?
And you stand, then you have to start going,
you know, through, oh, is it because I'm black?
Is it because I'm, you know, I'm quite,
you know, I'm, you know, I'm a bit.
I'm six foot and I'm a broad guy, you know what I mean?
(19:55):
So I'm not like, you know, for some people, that
might be, whether it's a female, whether it's someone that
feels vulnerable or whatever it may be, I'm not.
And again, I hate putting all these things into different
boxes because of the way I just see myself.
Do you know, I mean, and how I assert myself.
Yeah, I think that's really interesting about
that concept of you are having to.
(20:17):
It sounds like you're having to make a lot
more effort in those spaces to try and understand
how other people are feeling and how they're thinking.
And that's quite a lot of work that you have
to do, like additional work that you have to do
in these corporate spaces just to make sure that you're
anticipating how somebody else is going to accept you.
And then if it's not quite matching
(20:37):
your expectations, you're then in your head. Right?
Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm gay?
Is it because I'm this?
Is it because I'm that?
Is it because I'm six foot and abroad, all of
these things that you have to internalise because of, I
think, a lot of lack of representation in general.
But, of course, things have changed.
We know in the filmmaking industry that
(21:00):
there's much better representation on screen.
Now we know behind the scenes we see
a much better representation across the board.
There's still a hell of a lot of work to do.
I think that's what's making a big difference now to
filmmakers that are coming through that are much younger.
You know, if you were 20 years younger and you were
coming through now, how different it would be for you.
(21:21):
And like you say, things are different
in the seventies and eighties and.
And how different it would have been for you then.
So it's just.
I find that quite interesting.
What's great is that, yeah, things have come a long
way, and there is still, I would say, even in
the last few years, really, in terms of productions that
have got, you know, storylines and narratives that are.
That represented black and gay, I think it's like, only
(21:43):
the last few years, really kind of starting to see
that, you know, and obviously, the fact we've got RuPaul's
drag race in the UK on screen, which is great
as well, but I think it's rarely that you get
the same representation is reflected in the cast.
Sorry, in the crew.
So you might.
You might get a great storyline of what they're
(22:04):
outputting, you know, because I remember when there was
this whole tick box thing, it's like some kind
of film industry policy or something like that, that,
you know, your film has to be representative.
This community. I know it. I know it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, and I was like, okay, so there's
like a whole tick box thing that, you know, but
the main thing that I was trying to get across
(22:25):
in my response is saying that it's.
The crew are very, very rarely same
form of representation as that is.
You know, so you might get a script that's a
production that's been greenlit and all of that, but then
as soon as you go behind and you meet the
crew behind the making of that production, it's rarely that
(22:49):
you get a really full, diverse crew.
You're seeing a lot more of it now.
But still, even in the senior roles
within those productions are still not representative.
In the right way.
Yeah, in the right way.
Just not representative. Yeah.
And I think you're so right.
And I think you're right.
There's progression on screen and off screen, but
(23:10):
it's not matching the progression on screen.
You know, the stuff that we're seeing in the
mainstream media and those things is definitely massively increasing,
but we're miles behind with the progression.
Like you say, the second you go to a senior
position and listen, this is not just the filmmaking industry.
This is every single industry.
You know, you've got this extreme, extremely diverse
(23:31):
group of people at those lower levels, those
more entry level roles in an organisation.
The further up you go, the more homogenous people get,
and that's just typically what you see, and that's power
thing, and that's a big part of the work that
we do and a lot of organisations like ours do.
So I think that's quite an interesting point.
And it's definitely something I know you have experienced because
(23:53):
obviously you're a director as well as a producer as
well as an editor as well as all of these.
And you work a lot with the on screen cast
as well as you do, obviously, behind the scenes, you're
seeing these things changing, you're seeing the on screen cast
changing and progressing much quicker to represent the audiences that
we're playing out to, to behind the scenes.
(24:14):
I do know that there's organisations we
work with, a really big media organisation,
which you and I are partnered with.
They're doing a lot of work behind the scenes just
as much as on screen, so that's really amazing.
But, yeah, it's a big old push.
It's not something that's naturally happening.
And I think that's why representation
is so, so, so important. Definitely.
I've got one example, an obstacle, I feel, of events
(24:37):
and artist management and also film events as well.
And I remember having to fill out a form
because if any of the artists that I was
working with are basically music of black origin, and
I think it was called 969 form or something
like that, there was a whole form that the
police released for risk assessments and stuff like that.
(24:57):
And you'd have to put what genre of
music you would actually be putting on because
otherwise you weren't allowed to, etc. Etc.
And I remember in the west end, they got
rid of a lot of music where it's.
Whether it's r and b, dance, all that kind of thing.
And I felt that was a, like, in terms
of when you said about obstacles, I think in
terms of, like, trying to move forward about, you
(25:17):
know, I'm just here represent, you know, filming this
event representing some of these artists and you're saying,
I can't have certain music origin.
It's like, you know, it was just one of things.
There's all these little things that you.
That happen throughout your journey and it's kind of like it
was one of them that's like, okay, well, you know, it
kind of set me back a bit in terms of, you
know, so that's I use that an example and that might
(25:40):
not directly relate of what the question was, but you know,
it was just how you meant to progress just getting on
with the work that you want to do if you're constantly
having to fight these fights. Yeah.
And I think that's a really important point that
a lot of people forget about with the work
that we do is we're not trying to add
to managers and senior leaders and stuff work.
(26:00):
We're trying to create a space where
people can be as productive as possible.
I saw a post from, it's another
filmmaker I know on LinkedIn today.
And it was a really simple post.
It was a picture of him and a few people in his team
and he said, do you know how my team is so diverse?
And they literally put, because I hire
the best people and I love that.
(26:21):
I think that's so true.
And the thing is, if you hire the best
people and you give them the space to do
the best work and you don't question everything they're
doing and try and control everything they're doing, then
naturally you're going to have naturally diverse teams and
they're going to be reaching their potential.
It's a no brainer.
We've seen all the science,
we've seen all the research.
There's lots of studies to show that
(26:42):
this is really beneficial to organisations.
So we're not trying to control the way
leaders and managers are managing their teams.
We're trying to create a way in
which to make it easier for them.
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.
Okay, so I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts just on some allies that you found
throughout your career because I know that you've
(27:04):
got some really amazing people that you work
with and you've collaborated with in the past.
Do you have any stories or any
particular people that have supported you within
your career in an allyship way?
Yeah, I mean, I think.
Let's start from the beginning, Hunter.
I mean, I think having mentors or
(27:29):
mentorships are such an important thing.
And reflecting on this particular question. Yeah, I do.
My cousin's a colorist and he works for a production house
and we, you know, he's gave me working with him.
I mean, we've worked for many years on different
projects over the years and it allowed me to
(27:51):
get an insight into that world and along that,
you know, he's been very supportive on my projects
and, you know, and, you know, developing certain projects.
And also I've got a childhood friend as well,
Michelle, and she's, you know, she's been very, very
supportive in terms of encouraging me with my writing
and my, you know, my directing.
(28:12):
You know, I mean, I've directed many
short films before we, even before me
and her collaborated, but then we collaborated.
And then I think because I've got that connection
from childhood with her having that as an ally
there in terms of, you know, really supporting what
I'm doing, I think it helped unlock my potentials
(28:34):
knowing where I could actually go with this.
Yeah, she's done doing well in her, her world.
She's a comedian and an actor as
well as a producer as well.
And she.
Yeah, she's encouraging me in many ways.
I've also had the opportunity as well,
being mentored under a really, really good
director, amazing director called Kieran Hawks.
(28:55):
He's just done a production called
Red Eye, which is on ITV.
And, yeah, I mean, he's been really, really great,
you know, and just, just introduced me to his
world and allowed me to, you know, go on
set with him and, you know, just kind of.
Yeah, just being there, really in the sense of when
(29:18):
I say being there, meaning that it's just the mentoring.
Mentoring is such a key thing.
And in terms of when you say ally, I mean, you
know, they've, all of these people have helped me in some
way and there's really loads more that I can think of.
No. Is there? No.
Yeah, that's a fair few. Yeah. Yeah.
So, I mean, they're the key, I would say at
(29:39):
the moment, they're the key people that are quite instrumental
in terms of me progressing in my field.
And because they're all actively in the industry, professionally doing this
on a day to day basis, it just allows me to
get real insight of how I can move in the right
direction that I need to move in to.
(30:00):
And I think that having that's invaluable. You know?
But you know, that having.
When I say having, that's invaluable, meaning
that they start, you just, you can't
read this stuff in textbook.
You got to meet the right people.
You've got to align yourself with the right
people, and also you've got to turn up
and be present and be, you know. Yeah.
So I feel quite fortunate in that sense and grateful,
(30:22):
very grateful that, you know, that I do have these
people around me, but it's taken a while to kind
of shape that and making sure that you've got the
right people around you, encouraging in the right way.
I mean, there's loads of other people along the
way, but, you know, again, you've got to be
ready for it as well in yourself.
What I really liked there.
So when you were talking about your cousin Max, I really
(30:44):
loved the way you were describing, the way that he. He.
Yeah, yeah.
That he actually opened that
space up for your learning. And I think that there's
something about those safes spaces.
Again, it's something we talk about
a lot in the learning field.
We talk about it massively in the DEI learning field, but
of course, it goes across every area of our life.
(31:05):
We need safe spaces in our family, within our friendship
groups, at work, in our, you know, in our social
lives and all of that sort of stuff.
So the fact that he's helped to open it up is amazing.
And I love the mentoring as well with
Kieran because that's someone so closely connected to
exactly what you want to do.
And I also know you talk very highly of Michelle
quite a lot, and I know that there's a lot
(31:25):
of work you've done together as well, and she's been
able to bring you in on things.
And I think that there's something about not just
advocating for someone and not just helping people to
build their confidence, but even just going, come on
into this space because it's a massive, massive challenge
in the filmmaking industry, because there's a lot of
nepotism in the industry.
It's not something that people don't know.
(31:47):
Everybody is very aware of, of it.
So actually, there's a lot of other people
that are, I guess, are using nepotism in
the underrepresented space and saying, you know what?
I got in here, so I'm going to help you get
in here, rather than pushing back, saying, I had to work
really hard, so you have to work really hard.
And you see this a lot in the woman space as well.
(32:08):
There's a lot of women that can become very
senior and do some amazing work and have to
smash through loads of ridiculous stereotypes and put up
with a load of harassment and rubbish stuff.
And then some of those women, unfortunately, don't feel
like they want to help other people because they're
thinking, well, I had to work really hard, so.
So do you.
Yeah, but there are, on the flip side,
(32:29):
a lot of women that are doing really
amazing things, constantly opening doors for other women.
And I love that you're having that from lots
of different dimensions of your identity as well.
So you've got lots of different
allies in lots of different spaces.
That's really nice to hear.
On the flip side then, have there been any
instances where you've actually encountered, I guess, lack of
(32:51):
support, maybe a bit of resistance for people that
you've worked with because of any of your identities.
That's a hard one because I say, I say that's a
hard one only because I know that there's maybe been a
lot of pushback on certain things I've read the way, you
know, I present myself or the way I talk.
You know, the main thing that I've found the lack
(33:13):
of support of around is my disability because I think
the reason I'm using that as an example as opposed
to my sexuality and, you know, my ethnic origin is
that's what affects me day in, day out, in a
way that kind of like, you know, and because it's
a hidden thing, I know how it's infecting me.
You know, I'm walking the sh.
(33:35):
I'm in that, you know, I'm in
the body of who's got the narcolepsy.
So I know how it affects me.
But then there's been so many different
environments where I feel like I've.
Why have I been just not being
accepted or supported in the right way?
Because they don't recognise it. Do you see what I mean?
(33:55):
Because I present myself in a certain way,
I'll, you know, because I'm not in a
wheelchair and I don't walk around with.
And, you know, and it's
not that obvious and recognised.
And also as well, whether people recognise this as
a disability or not, it is a disability.
So it's the fact that, you know, you're kind
(34:16):
of like, oh, no, well, you know, that didn't
make sense, what you said there, or the way
you wrote that, or, you know, if you're not.
If you don't conform in a certain way to
society and the way things need to be appear.
That's why when things like, you know, AI came out.
Chat GC that's amazing for someone who's
got disability, because it allows you to,
(34:37):
you know, meticulously go through things.
The amount of stuff that I have to get people to read,
you know, to proofread for me before I can actually send it
out, you know, I have to go through a process.
I suppose everyone else does go through a
process, but my process is like, actually, I'm
just missing the basics here sometimes.
(34:58):
But in terms of the lack of support, I think it's more.
Yeah, just people not taking the time
to recognise these things, you know, that.
To recognise that, you know, this person might need
a little extra support here or, you know, a
little bit more understanding of what they're going through.
The industry moves at such a fast pace and if
(35:18):
you're not part of that pace, you're not included.
And therefore the amount of work.
Yeah, no, that's spot on.
What is hard work?
Yeah.
The amount of extra work that an
individual with a disability has to take.
I myself, people don't see that process.
(35:39):
People don't see that struggle that you deal with
to even be, to even have a chance, you
know, I mean, to even, you know.
So therefore when you do get to.
And don't be wrong, I suppose every industry has
a standard that you have to adhere to.
That's the stats that, you
know, that goes without saying.
But I think when you get to that
(35:59):
standard sometimes is that your other talents don't
get recognised if you're not hitting that thing.
So therefore, you know, especially in the media world,
I think sometimes that, you know, there's so many
creative individuals out there that will, you know, just
don't get looking because they can't either talk the
talk or, you know, or even have that environment
(36:19):
where they can be like, okay, you know, all
the stuff I know as well.
I mean, you know, I, even though I
did go to a performance college, outside of
that, the production process, it's all self taught.
I've had to sit down and learn this stuff.
And really, like I said, I've written loads of
short films and directed some short films as well.
But you still have to go through that process as well.
(36:41):
But the thing is, it's a team effort so you've
got to make sure you're on the right team for
you, for yourself to be able to shine because what
you'd end up doing, I remember like even just short
film like that was recently in festival last year and
I remember we was actually doing a take, you know,
I'm the director, remember that?
You know, so I'm like I can't, I can't have
(37:03):
my disability affect that, you know, it just can't happen.
And I'm telling my.
And I'm fighting and people don't realise, you know, that
why, you know, the little mechanisms I have to do
to make sure that I'm on my game, you know,
and, you know, little, you know, and you know, whether
I'm drinking a lot of coffee where from, you know,
(37:23):
sometimes I find myself, I push my, I have to
push my nail into my finger to make sure I'm
conscious because otherwise if I drift, I can't do, I
mean, this, you know, you can't have that, you.
So it's yeah, but then there's loads of.
There's loads of positive sides of them having
a condition like narcolepsy because I'm always in
(37:44):
and out of a dreamlike state.
It allows me to visualise things as if
they were happening in the real world.
You know, I always say to people, I lead them,
you know, a double reality because, you know, my narcolepsy,
well, it's almost like an endless tv series.
You know, if I get a brief or if I'm writing
a brief for a client or if I'm writing a piece
(38:04):
for any script that I'm working on, I can put my.
Not even put myself, I can drift
into that space and really feel that
what's happening is actually happening for real.
So I think there's positives in many different things,
you know, things like autism and stuff, like there's
so many disabilities where there's a positive side to
having that disability and it also makes you individual.
(38:26):
I mean, so it makes you unique in what you
do, but still, there's still that, you know, you know,
you've got to be part of society, you've got to
be on form, you've got to be there.
Yeah, yeah.
It's really interesting that you're talking about some of
the techniques that you've had to develop to fit
(38:46):
within society's norms and to make sure you can
function in a way that everybody is expecting somebody
to function, because obviously you and I have had
conversations before and I can see when.
I can see the difference now when
you're about to kind of lose consciousness.
So that's obviously we've got a really good
relationship, but I'm able to say to you,
(39:07):
should we have this conversation later?
And then you're like, yeah, thank you.
And then you'll go away. Yeah.
And you'll be able to deal with it.
But, you know, that's such a small thing
for people to be able to do that.
It's not a big, massive thing for organisations to
spend loads of money and change loads of policies,
which is what I think a lot of organisations
think, especially when it comes to disability.
(39:28):
A lot of the time, like you say, it's making
sure you're on the right team and that you do
connect and that you do share these things with each
other, because actually, if you're in a safe and a
space that you can tell people this about yourself and
you know that there's not going to be any judgement,
then actually they can do something as simple as keep
an eye on when you're changing and you're starting to
(39:48):
drift and actually go, do you know what?
This conversation isn't that important right now.
Let's chat a bit.
Nice and easy, right?
It's not a difficult thing to do.
I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts just as we finish off.
Just your thoughts on just one thing or a couple
of things that organisations could do to help build better
representation and just to be able to support their people
(40:11):
a lot better when they're coming into work.
Whether it's to do with disability, whether it's to.
With race, class, any of those sorts of things,
I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts.
So I'm going to go into one now.
Like, you know, over the years there's
been many great people in different organisations.
They got human side to them as well
as obviously really good at their job.
And I think recognising great talent within an organisation
(40:36):
to help foster or, you know, the culture of
that organisation to help it grow, I think there's
so many people that have been let go of
different, over the years, different people I work with
and that's been let go from certain businesses and
that, and I'm just like, well, you know, they
offered something and I think organisations don't recognise some
talents that they've got already there.
(40:57):
And I think mentorship programmes
are such, so important. So important.
I mean, the first time I had a mentor, when I was.
I was actually school when I had a mentor and
they were a screenwriter and a guy called Troy and
he was amazing in terms of like, you know, the
support that he, you know, and that.
And that's the first time I even heard the word mentor.
Mentorship or mentoring, I didn't even know what
(41:18):
it meant, you know, when I was.
And I was like, this is what it is.
So I was quite fortunate in that sense.
But then, you know, there was a whole
load of students that got overlooked, didn't have
that opportunity to have a mentor.
But I think in terms of answering
your question of individuals and organisations is
building in those mentorship programme structures.
(41:40):
You know, I think it's so important that
that happens because, like I said, it allows
you to just identify and foster great talent.
And I think, you know, within mentorship programmes
as well, it's great that, you know, if
that person, you've got to allow that person
to make some mistakes, obviously there's about.
I mean, I think we spoke about this
before about, you know, you know, as an
(42:01):
employee yourself, kind of the limitations that.
Okay, how many mistakes you allow someone
to make before they have to change.
You know, how much do you tolerate as
a business for someone to make mistakes?
But I think if you've got a mentorship programme, you're
aware of those barriers or it allows an element of
some people to make some mistakes, but also it allows
(42:25):
you to recognise amazing talent at the same time.
And then that way, as an organisation, you can
make that call whether you should be even be
the organisation to have this person in your business
or whether you should be putting them onto another
programme or, you know, you know, you help them
on the stepping stone where they need to go.
But I think, you know, that the challenges
and that people that are facing in, whether
(42:47):
it's in marginalised communities, you know, those challenges
there, having the opportunity to even just excel
and be the best person you can be.
I think organisations need to understand mentorship
programmes as such a key thing.
And I think a lot of organisations don't
because they're too busy running their business.
They're running their business, but they don't realise
(43:09):
then if I have a mentorship programme that
helps foster this talent, that also helps increase
culture, the organization's outlook, you know, I think
as well, I mean, it's.
What a lot of organisations suffer is not
suffer with, sorry, what organisations struggle with is
connecting with certain communities and outreaching to certain
(43:30):
communities and they say, oh, we want these
voices in our business, we want these voices.
But because they don't invest in that and they're not
focused on that, then, you know, on paper they might
be going, okay, we're going to do this, we're going
to do that, we're going to do this. But.
But are you really doing it or
are you just ticking a box?
You know, and I think you're right, I
think the intention is definitely there a lot.
(43:54):
Some organisations, not so much, and I was talking
about this with somebody recently, which is there's sometimes
when you get approached by an organisation to work
for them and you realise they're just ticking boxes
and we realise there's no point working with them
because if they're not interested in truly doing something
with it, nothing's going to happen with it.
It's going to be a waste of our time,
waste of their time and damage to our reputation.
(44:15):
But I do think a lot of organisations do
have good intentions, but their impact doesn't match because
they want those quick wins and that's the challenge.
When you're working on culture, when you're working
with humans, we don't change our behaviours quickly.
We don't kind of all fall and step into line like
you would expect in the army and stuff like that.
(44:35):
Everybody has their own creative mind, their own logical
mind, their own way of working, their own personal
lives, all of that sort of stuff.
So I think that you're spot on with
the mentorship programmes because that's something that companies
have to be really patient with.
Because it takes time for
mentorship programmes to work.
You can normally see a difference in somebody quite quickly,
(44:56):
but actually, for it to really land as a cultural
piece of work, it does take time and I think
that is how a lot of organisations are falling.
So I think that's a really, really interesting
one for you to pick up there.
And I want to thank you so much for spending the
time with me today because I got to learn more about
you and I felt like I knew lots about you already.
(45:17):
And I think there's people listening to this,
whether or not they're in the film making
industry, I think they're going to be able
to take away something really useful.
And I love that you've been able to really
connect that community aspect with what organisations are missing,
because it sounds spot on to me.
It's definitely my experience of working across the
world with lots of different organisations, for sure.
(45:39):
So thank you so much for taking the time to me today.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for
joining us in today's conversation.
What a fantastic guest I love to have.
He was able to share some really powerful insights
into what it's really like to navigate this type
(46:00):
of industry, especially the media industry in general.
As somebody that's from various different underrepresented backgrounds, and
I think some of the things he said about
the importance of allies and the changes that still
need to be made to make it even more
inclusive, really helpful as well.
We hope this episode has given you a
freshen perspective on the challenges and also the
(46:22):
opportunities that we can make within the industry.
And listen, if you enjoyed this, don't forget to
follow us on LinkedIn and share with other people.
Until next time. We'll see you soon.
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