July 9, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, we explore the critical aspects of social impact reporting with a special focus on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI). Joined by Fathma Khalid, an expert in social impact measurement and DEI initiatives, we discuss what social impact work entails, methods for measuring it, and the integral role DEI plays in designing and implementing these projects.
We also address the challenges organisations face in quantifying the impact of their DEI initiatives, key metrics for evaluating success, and future trends that will shape DEI efforts and social impact measurement.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
a conversation with Zing Learning podcast.
We are here today with the absolutely incredible Fathma
Khalid, who is here to talk to us today
about all of the wonderful positive differences we can
make with social value if we're able to start
(00:32):
really measuring them in a really effective way.
I really love this conversation because we get
to talk a lot about the positive difference
we can make, some of the broader challenges
that we're seeing as well, and also how
to start to interrogate your assumptions and beliefs.
So grab a cuppa, kick back and have a listen.
(01:01):
Welcome to this episode.
Today we are talking to the incredibly talented Fathma
Khalid and we are talking about all sorts of
fantastic things around social impact and measurement and what
it really means in the grander scheme of things.
So, Fathma, if it's okay, I'm actually going to
get you to introduce yourself to the listeners. Great.
(01:22):
Well, thank you very much for having me, Zoe.
So my name is Fathma, as you said, and
I founded a consultancy called Social Impact Reporting.
So my personal specialism is
in social impact measurement.
So that effectively means helping different kinds
of organisations to track and report on
the social impact that they are making.
So that could be for a charity that's working
(01:45):
directly with local communities, or it could be for
a larger corporate that has different kind of funding
parts and just trying to understand what social impact
means for them, tracking data against their outcomes and
putting that together into nicely designed reports.
Oh, fantastic.
And thank you so much for being here today, Fathma.
I think it's going to be really useful for
(02:07):
everybody listening because I imagine there's people here that
have never heard of this type of work before.
So do you want to tell us a little bit
about what it is and what it kind of means?
I guess in the grand scheme of
community and those sorts of things.
So to start with, kind of what does social impact mean?
So in general, there isn't necessarily like a very
(02:30):
accepted definition that everybody agrees on, but in general,
it's about having a positive change that affects a
group of stakeholders and that is defined very, very,
relatively depending on who you are and what is
the positive change that you are trying to affect.
There are loads of kind of adjacent terms that exist.
(02:50):
Things like ESG, environmental, social and governance is
used a lot in the corporate space.
In the past we've used terms
like corporate social responsibility a lot.
And then in terms of measurement specifically,
you'll hear terms like monitoring and evaluation,
which is used a lot more in
kind of the development and charity space.
And all of these things are interconnected
(03:12):
and all related to social impact.
But yeah, from like the measurement perspective.
My specialism is in measurement, and measurement
is about tracking to what extent the
social impact change has occurred.
Once you have run a project. Oh, wow. Okay, thank you.
And I think probably some of those
terms some people are familiar with.
I know CSR was definitely a big thing when I
(03:35):
was working in HR and then I saw that evolve
more into ESG over the last however many years.
So that's quite interesting.
How do people measure social impact then?
It is a great question and it very much depends
on what it is that you are trying to track.
I think the kind of overall principles for measuring your
(04:00):
impact are to have a really well defined goals.
So if you're able to really articulate what are the
outcomes and the impacts that you're hoping to see and
at different timeframes, and then from that you can have
a good idea of what the data points would be
that you should try to track to see the extent
to which those are being realised or not.
Because I think traditionally, when we're looking at social
(04:23):
impact work or trying to create positive difference, say,
if you had an impact project that was trying
to educate young people who are looking for work,
traditionally the metrics that you would look at might
include, you know, who showed up to the trainings,
how many hours did they attend, what kind of
things were they looking at?
And while those things are really important, the
metrics that are really meaningful go beyond what
(04:45):
happens when those people leave the room.
So things like how many people were able to secure
interviews as a result of that training, how many people
were able to secure part time or full time work,
how long were they able to stay in those jobs?
So it's basically looking beyond the metrics that are
a little bit more accessible and straightforward, that historically
we've put a lot more emphasis on and trying
(05:07):
to understand the broader change and the other implications
that result from the project that you do.
And it does become more complicated at that
point, but it's definitely a lot more meaningful
when you have access to that data.
Yeah, and actually that's something that we use a
lot in the learning field and the DEI field.
(05:28):
So we notice it a lot more in
organisations, obviously, than other spaces, community spaces and
stuff like that, because you can track it
all the way through someone's career.
I mean, not necessarily that people are doing this
very well in a lot of organisations, but it's
definitely applicable and it definitely can work.
So I think it's really interesting because we obviously
(05:49):
do lots of measuring with our clients and with
the people that we work with and thinking about
how can they look at that social impact of
the work they're doing internally as an organisation, with
their people, with upskilling, maybe with talent velocity and
helping underrepresented groups to become more senior in the
organisation, more specialists, whatever else it might be, and
(06:11):
how that then positively impacts the outside society.
So I think a lot of the work
that you do kind of goes between those
two, right, because you're talking about the projects
you're doing within society, within the community, that
then can influence organisations and also within organisations.
How can that then start to not just help people
(06:31):
in the organisation but also help outside of it?
Absolutely.
And I think it is trying to look at what are
those broader changes that you're hoping to see and what kind
of is the pathway to impact that you would expect to
see as a result of those particular changes.
Once you're able to have that defined quite well, it's a
lot easier to see in terms of data like what are
(06:53):
the things, what are the changes that you'd be looking for
and how can you try to capture some of those insights?
But it's all very interrelated, it's all very interconnected
and it depends so much on how you define
what impact means for you and your organisation.
So it's really interesting but yeah,
unfortunately not a straightforward answer.
Yeah, no, I don't think it is,
otherwise everyone would be doing it. Right.
(07:14):
And I think what you're saying there about that
and organisations and places that have influence on social
impact, when they're looking at those broader positive change
that they're trying to make, you know, they're trying
to think about those KPI's.
Often they need a lot of help to get there and
that's the sort of stuff that we've done with execs and
(07:37):
boards and stuff like that to help them just to even
start to go, what is it that we actually need?
Because often they don't know because they're so detached
from the rest of the organisation or even from
the customer base that they're serving or the community
that they're sitting in, they can be quite detached
from that just from, you know, being in a
much more senior position and even just having that
(07:59):
role in general or because of some of the
ways in which people progress through their career, they
may be from certain types of backgrounds that are
very disconnected from some underrepresented groups as well.
So I think that's quite interesting and it's definitely
something we spend a lot of time on with
execs and with boards and stuff like that.
Is that something that you
find yourself getting involved in?
(08:21):
I think it is.
There's definitely a lot of parallels.
So, like, one thing that I've kind of found through my
work is that when you do have an organisation that has
a social project or kind of an impact focus, whether it's
through the main business or, you know, as kind of like
a side thing, often they'll have a general idea of what's
the positive change they're trying to create.
(08:41):
But they don't have the ability to articulate that
in a way, in terms of defining success.
Typically it's like we want to do something
good or we want to work with these
people and often it will be reputational.
But when you try to drill down into, okay, what
does this positive impact look like tangibly on the ground?
A lot of organisations don't have the language to
(09:02):
articulate that or to really explain that, even if
they've been doing that work for years and they
anecdotally know what it looks like.
So I find that really interesting and it's really a
case of kind of like interrogating what their assumptions and
core beliefs are that are maybe implicit to the organisation
and just trying to put that down on paper.
And I feel like there's parallels in terms of the
(09:22):
work that you do as well, and forcing those organisations
to look inwards as well as outwards and trying to,
like, improve their outreach and trying to kind of see
what progress looks like from another person's perspective.
I think there's something really useful in what
you just said there about language as well.
And it's something that keeps coming up every podcast
(09:43):
that we're recording, not surprisingly, because we notice a
lot in the work that we do in Dei.
Michael Reed, who's a linguistic expert, we did a
podcast with him recently and obviously he's all about
language and all about how it can change the
way people perceive things, change the way people even
look at Dei in general.
(10:05):
And then, interestingly, we had another
podcast with one of the best
behavioural scientists that we know, Irfan.
And he was talking about how language has
evolved, but not really in the last 20
years since he's been in place.
So I find it really interesting that
you've picked up on it as well.
It's definitely a theme that's coming through, whether
it's the internal Dei work organisations are doing
(10:26):
or that wider social impact piece.
You can really start to see how important language is in
playing a part, and like you say, learning how to articulate
what it is and what it means to the organisation and
how it might or might not align to the core beliefs
of the individual or the organisation as well.
So that's always a really interesting conversation to have,
(10:46):
I think, with especially those most senior people in
the organisation, because they tend to be the ones
that are living and breathing the values and really
putting out all of those important kind of cultural
pieces from the organisation, but sadly so disconnected sometimes
from the reality of what that's like out in
the wider world.
Yeah, absolutely.
(11:07):
It's very true and it is.
I mean, like, language is just so powerful in terms of
how we communicate and like, a big part of the work
that I do in terms of measurement is about reporting.
So, like, once you have data, once you have an understanding
of, you know, the impact that you are making in terms
of, like, data, in data points, how do you communicate that
(11:30):
externally and how do you make sure that it's like, received
in a way that you want it to be received and
that is tailored for different audiences and it's such a big
part of the whole puzzle, just making sure that you are
able to communicate and present yourselves in a way that's consistent
with your values. Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, listen, that's like
marketing 101 in general, right?
Even if you take any of the social
(11:53):
impact, the human behaviour stuff out of it,
that's basically the minimum of what organisations should
be thinking about in general.
I'm really interested because you've used the word parallel
a couple of times and I definitely see it,
hence why we've had conversations before, hence why I
asked you to come on here.
I think I'm really interested to hear to what
extent Dei plays a role in designing and implementing
(12:17):
social impact projects from your point of view.
A great question.
So I think one of the things that well
designed impact projects will have is a big focus
on stakeholder engagement and that's kind of across all
levels and a lot of the time that will
include, like, community stakeholders, so who are potentially, you
(12:39):
know, the beneficiaries of the project, who will be
engaging, who will be benefiting.
And I think that's where, like, De and I
can have a really big role to play.
Just making sure that your stakeholder engagement is really
context relevant in terms of where you're physically situated
and making sure that you are speaking to the
(13:01):
audiences that are relevant to you, even if they're
perhaps some groups that you might not have engaged
with before as an organisation and trying to be
really conscious of making sure that those stakeholders are
representative of the change that you're trying to make
and the type of organisation that you are and
where you are as well.
(13:21):
That's been a really good example, I guess, of where kind
of diversity and inclusion fits in with impact work and it's
a big risk as well, of trying to do a social
impact project and where a lot of them can fail.
So it's, I think, underappreciated for how
important it is in the impact space. Yeah.
And I think with the, you know, the anti Dei
(13:44):
rhetoric that's happening at the moment because of various things
that are happening in politics and all sorts of things,
and not just in the UK, you know, we feel
things in the UK that are happening in the US,
in this space because there's such a close connection on
some of the challenges we face in systematic barriers.
So I think it's a really valid point, actually,
(14:06):
that we need to think about where it does
get a bit of a bad rap.
And actually a big part of our role in
DeI feels like at the moment is PR.
We're trying to get people to understand,
okay, it's ebbs and flows in Dei.
People get really involved in it when something big
happens in the community space and then it kind
(14:27):
of goes down when budgets get cut and things
are a little bit tighter and then people all
of a sudden really care about it.
So I think our job is to make sure
we keep showing people the positive impact of the
work that we're doing and it can be, of
course, internally with the DEI work we're doing.
And it can also, of course, like you're saying,
be that social impact work and there's no reason
it can't be both of those things.
(14:48):
We've seen it happen with organisations where we have
developed a DEI learning programme for them and actually
that's changed the culture of the organisation.
It's then naturally split out into recruiting
much more representative people from the community
and those sorts of things.
So that's been a really beautiful thing
to be able to see that social
(15:09):
impact, but we definitely see some challenges
with organisations in quantifying the social impact.
So I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts on this because I know this
is something you're really passionate about.
So how do you think some of these organisations,
or not even how, what are some of the
challenges that these organisations are facing and actually, how
(15:30):
might they be able to overcome them?
I think it is just generally difficult to quantify
what are often abstract concepts, you know, so if
you're trying to understand, like increase in well being.
What does that look like in a data point?
So that's kind of where it goes back to
interrogating your assumptions and your beliefs and trying to
(15:52):
force a definition out of your organisation.
So the way that I work is that I'll work
with kind of project leaders or an organization's leadership to
help them to really define what their impact vision is
and then work out what the pathway to impact is.
Using the theory of change framework, which I know we've
spoken about before, and then using that as a starting
(16:16):
point, you can really drill down into each kind of
building block of that impact and trying to understand, if
I was to look for this change in the real
world, what could I expect to see?
Because not every change is necessarily observable.
Like if you're looking at a change in mindset or
attitude or something like that, it's not necessarily a behaviour
(16:37):
point that you can always observe, but there might be
something adjacent to that that you could observe or, you
know, ways of asking questions that are, you know, not
too leading or things like that.
So just thinking about what's accessible to you and
trying to just explore the, the options that exist.
And I think just having a starting point is,
is better than floundering with too many unknowns.
(17:00):
So if you're able to just ask a few
questions that maybe are quite rudimentary in the first
instance, it will give you a starting point of
the kind of outcomes that you're looking for.
And hopefully from there you can refine and improve.
And I would say try not to get
overwhelmed or like bogged down in the detail.
Just try to focus on a few key points and
try to look for things that are accessible and not
(17:21):
going to take a huge amount of time and resource
because that's not feasible for a lot of organisations.
Yeah, and I think the word overwhelm
is probably really, really important with this
because I think you're so right.
Like, if people don't know where
to start, they tend not to.
And we see this with more traditional organisations that know
that they've got a lot of work to do in
(17:43):
this space and they really want to do the work,
but they don't know where to start.
So it kind of creates this
decision paralysis around what they're doing.
So they never really quite get started because
they don't really know where to start.
They're also terrified they're going to get things
wrong and they're going to make it worse.
So that's always a big challenge as well.
I'm really interested because you just mentioned the theory of
(18:05):
change framework, which we've talked about, but just for people
listening to this now, could you explain to them, because
I think this is a really good framework for people
to be able to start to think about how they
might be able to apply it. Absolutely.
So it's quite foundational to how I work.
But the theory of change framework, it's one of a
type of logical framework, so there's a few that exist,
(18:26):
but theory of change is the one that I found
that's the easiest to work with and effectively, it helps
you to map, to map out what your impact project
looks like, taking you from what is the problem that
you're trying to solve?
Who are the main stakeholders involved in that
particular issue, and then looking at what are
(18:49):
the potential activities you could do to support
those target beneficiary groups, what are the outputs?
So if you have a project, what
are the direct results of that project?
So that could be like, how many people show up to
your training or how many food parcels have you distributed?
Something like that.
And then beyond the outputs,
(19:10):
you're looking at the outcomes.
Typically there's three outcome levels.
The first level outcome is short term, and
that's typically an internal change to a person.
So that could be a change in
belief, understanding, attitude, perception, something like that.
Second level outcomes are medium terminal and they
are typically seen in a behavioural change.
(19:31):
So that could be, how are those
first level outcomes then translated into behaviour?
So if someone's learned something, how has that changed?
How they're approaching a certain issue or
like their job hunt, for example.
And then third level outcomes are broader, so
they are typically felt like an organisational or
a societal level, but it's effectively the cumulative
(19:53):
effect of those behavioural changes at an individual
level and how they aggregate up.
And the idea is that those three outcome levels
then contribute to your overall big impact vision.
So that could be like one or two kind of statements of
that big kind of blue sky thinking goal that you have.
So once you have all those stages of outcomes
(20:14):
defined, it gives you a better understanding of the
types of change that you would expect to see
at different levels in different timeframes.
And then from that you can try to
define some indicators to try to collect both
qualitative and quantitative data to see the extent
to which those outcomes are being realised.
The framework helps you to understand effectively the impact pathway
(20:36):
and how to get to your big impact vision. I love that.
And it's so, I think, especially when you see
it written down and someone takes you through it.
It's so simple.
It's one of those things that you're like,
why have I not thought about this before?
Because I know you and I did this
work and I was like, actually, it's not.
It's not as much work as I thought it
was going to be and it's not as overwhelming
as I thought it was going to be.
(20:57):
And for somebody who runs a business that
is all about diversity and inclusion, I thought
I kind of knew all of this stuff.
But actually spending that time with you was really
useful, not just for my business, but I was
able to then pass that, that knowledge on to
the organisations that I'm working with as well.
I'm really interested to hear some thoughts from you and I
might put you on the spot a little bit here.
(21:18):
So apologies if I do, but if we could
just say to organisations, say that they are running
their DEI programmes and they also want to have
a bigger social impact as an organisation, what are
the three metrics that we think that organisations could
(21:38):
focus on that are really going to help them?
So rather than having to think about too many things,
what are just three simple metrics for them to just
get started, to start to understand their social value?
Hmm.
I really put you on the spot here.
I think it's so dependent on what
it is that you're trying to achieve.
(21:59):
But I think maybe if I was to try to
pick a couple of metrics from a DEI perspective, I
think if we were to look at things that are
perhaps a little bit beyond the obvious, like demographic type
stats, I'm sure these are things that you've spoken about
and work with your clients about, but if we look
at things like, what's the progression, like of different types
(22:21):
of minorities within that, or underrepresented people within that organisation,
or things like, what is your kind of dispute management
conflict resolution process in your organisation, how is that working?
Do you just receive complaints from a certain demographic
or is it a little bit more mixed?
I'm sure these are things you've
(22:41):
come across before in terms of.
From an impact perspective, it really depends on what
it is that you are trying to do.
From an internal perspective, I guess it would.
The easiest things are output metrics.
So, like, do you have, like, donation schemes in place?
Do you have volunteering days?
So that's kind of, I guess, more employee
(23:01):
centric, not necessarily working with, like, external communities,
and it's a little bit more CSR focused.
But if you were to have more
of an external social impact project.
I think it would really depend on what
your organisation is trying to do and how
you could add value to the community.
And typically that's like the way that I will
start working with any client is just really understanding
(23:23):
what are your organisational priorities and then how could
you leverage the assets that you already have as
an organisation to bring additional support to the community
that you're already engaged with?
And it's about trying to
capture those lowest hanging fruit.
So it's a little bit harder to say from
the social impact perspective because it really depends on
what type of project you're trying to do or
(23:46):
what type of impact you're trying to create.
But you can start with just a couple of
fairly simple metrics and take it from there.
That's really fantastic.
And actually I think that that's really useful because
some of the DEI metrics that a lot of
organisations use, they're very good at demographics in that
(24:06):
kind of knowing who is working in the organisation,
but they really struggle to see it as people
progress, they really struggle to see it, like you
say, with dispute resolution and stuff like that.
So that's a really useful
tip, I think, for organisations.
And then, like you say, those
are some really simple metrics there.
How, you know, who are the volunteer days, how many
(24:26):
are there from an internal point of view, if it
is about representation, how are you working with the local
community that is represented in your organisation?
So there could be some really interesting
ways to use it there as well.
And I think that's a really good thing for people
to think about because it can feel really overwhelming, it
can feel really hard to know where to start.
(24:47):
So I think those are just a few
simple things that people can start with.
And often when we're talking about those more internal
employee related ones, that demographic data, some organisations find
really hard to get that data, so people don't
want to tell them that information.
And actually I say to these organisations that.
(25:07):
But that's actually data in itself.
The fact that your people don't feel
comfortable enough to share aspects of their
identity with you is your baseline.
So there's actually some safety work that
you need to do with people.
So a, they know what you're doing with that data and that
you're going to use it for something positive and b, that it's
going to be a safe space for them to be able to
(25:27):
share that data with you in the first place.
So actually I think any data is
going to be really, really useful.
So like you said, just starting with something is
a really really good way to get going.
And I think besides numbers then.
So what other types of evidence do you
think is important for assessing social impact work
of the DEI work organisations are doing?
(25:50):
So when I look at measuring social impact projects, I
will always have a mixture of quantitative and qualitative data
to try to understand how, how those, like how the
success of that project is being realised.
And both are really helpful because quantitative metrics
(26:13):
can be really useful in understanding kind of
the scale and the reach of the work,
whereas qualitative metrics, they can really be helpful
in understanding the depth and kind of the
richness of how that project has gone.
And often in terms of social impact projects, especially
(26:33):
if it's a new project, there can be lots
of learnings where you wouldn't necessarily know which questions
to ask to understand how to improve the next
time you do the same project.
So having more open ended qualitative
questions can be really, really helpful.
So even just very broad things in terms
(26:53):
of general, like how could we improve questions?
Or things like how did you benefit?
Or how would you have expected to benefit?
Often if you can do pre and post surveys or
interviews that can give really good comparative data for you
to gain a much like deeper insight of how that
change has affected that particular beneficiary group, again, the exact
(27:17):
questions you would ask would we depend on what it
is that you're trying to do with that project?
But yeah, I suppose, like from it, from a de
and I perspective, it would really be trying to, as
you've said, like defining that baseline and then understanding what
the change has been from that baseline.
So just kind of like using the data that
you already have accessible to you and trying to
add to that and see where kind of the
(27:38):
lowest tagging fruit are and making those changes and
seeing where the next areas for growth would be.
I love that.
And it's really interesting because when you were talking
then about the pre and post feedback or surveys
or whatever it's going to be, it's really interesting
because we do a lot of that in the
learning field and we definitely translate that over to
(27:59):
the DEI learning field quite easily as well.
But what we found over the years with DEI learning
is often people will score and scale themselves much higher
in areas, then they'll come to the DEI learning, they'll
realise they didn't know what they didn't know, and then
they'll actually score themselves sometimes lower.
So that in itself can be really useful as long
(28:21):
as we set the expectations for the employers so they
know that that is the case, but I think the
way you're using them probably is an even better way
to use it because that's the way people are feeling
about things and their expectations of those things and whether
or not it matched the actual project itself.
So that can be really useful as well.
(28:43):
But it's just something that came to mind then.
It's just something we find quite often when we do a
bit more of a scaling data collection in that way.
I guess that's another example as well of where
like the importance of language and understanding kind of
comes into play, because that's something that we see
as well in terms of people responding to questions
(29:03):
but not necessarily knowing what they don't know and
that kind of affecting how they respond and what
their perception is of a particular issue.
And then once they go through a particular
programme, then their understanding and perception will change
and therefore their responses will change.
So that is very interesting.
There isn't necessarily a clear cut way in
(29:24):
terms of how to deal with that.
I think that is one of those things that you iterate
and you improve as you go through and you get better
at knowing how to ask the questions in a way that
they can be answered a little bit more uniformly.
Very, very interesting to see how
those data points come back.
And I think your point around having both, I'm
going to try say this wrong now, but having
(29:45):
both quantitative and qualitative data is really, really important
because they paint the picture together and that's basically
what you're trying to do with this, right?
You're trying to establish what is it and in
your case, what is the biggest social impact piece
that we're going to get from this?
Before and after, of course.
And for us it's similar, but it's very much
based around the organisational point in the middle.
(30:07):
That's really interesting.
And just before we finish off, I'm really interested to
hear your thoughts on looking forward and how you think
data is going to continue to evolve and continue to
shape the DEI efforts and how we can make a
much bigger social impact in the work that we're doing.
There are abs and flows in terms of
(30:28):
how much attention like organisations pay to this
type of stuff, as you have mentioned earlier.
But I do think there is becoming a broader
appreciation of kind of more meaningful data points.
So looking beyond the simple kind of output metrics,
demographic metrics, so I am hopeful that more organisations
(30:50):
are able to leverage the things that they already
have and are able to invest a little bit
more time and effort into trying to track things
that are a little bit more meaningful in terms
of the future for organisations that are trying to
improve their DNI or their social impact tracking.
I would say to start with the heat of the
data that you already do have, whatever is already accessible
(31:12):
to you, because it's often the case as well that
organisations will have data that they're not necessarily using to
the, to the best of ability that they could, and
then trying to see where the existing gaps are and
what the lowest hanging fruit is.
Because the intention isn't with De and I or
with social impact to make your life difficult.
You know, like it is about trying to
(31:33):
just improve things from where you are.
And you can only really do that
if you know where you are now.
So just have a good understanding of where you do
sit and have, I guess, a little bit of openness
to learning and then trying to develop it from there
and tapping into resources for help and organisations where you
(31:55):
need them, and then trying to focus on kind of
deeper metrics like, you know, things like retention or sense
of belonging or, you know, having a review of like
the types of work and leave policies and all of
that kind of stuff when the time is right. I love that.
So layering up the data rather than trying to do
everything right now, use what you've got, there's definitely going
to be something useful that you can use to get
(32:17):
started, just to benchmark exactly where you are and then
slowly layer it up so then you've got much more
data to work with and much easier pictures to paint,
basically, exactly from what you've got there.
I love that.
Thank you so, so much.
I could talk to you about this for days
and I think we have talked to each other
about this lots before, but I really, really appreciate
(32:37):
you spending some time with us today.
I know that there's been some really
useful things that people can take away.
I'm hoping that some of the senior leaders
listening to this are able to understand that
data doesn't need to feel overwhelming.
Actually, just starting, just doing something is going to
be really useful in the work that we're doing.
Thank you very much, Zoe, it's been lovely
(32:59):
speaking with you and yeah, looking forward to
hearing the next episodes of your podcast.
Lovely, thanks, Fathma, speak to you soon. Thanks.
Well, we hope that you liked that episode.
What a fantastic amount of
(33:20):
information there from Fathma.
I loved the way she was talking about some
of those different positive differences that we can make.
Also just explaining that theory of change framework, because I
think it's such a great simple way for us to
start to think about how we can start to measure
the work that we're doing, whether we're in an organisation.
Even if you're not in the field of diversity,
(33:42):
equity and inclusion, I think there's something really useful
to take away from there as well. Thanks for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.
Hello and welcome to another episode of
a conversation with Zing Learning podcast.
We are here today with the absolutely incredible Fathma
Khalid, who is here to talk to us today
about all of the wonderful positive differences we can
make with social value if we're able to start
(00:32):
really measuring them in a really effective way.
I really love this conversation because we get
to talk a lot about the positive difference
we can make, some of the broader challenges
that we're seeing as well, and also how
to start to interrogate your assumptions and beliefs.
So grab a cuppa, kick back and have a listen.
(01:01):
Welcome to this episode.
Today we are talking to the incredibly talented Fathma
Khalid and we are talking about all sorts of
fantastic things around social impact and measurement and what
it really means in the grander scheme of things.
So, Fathma, if it's okay, I'm actually going to
get you to introduce yourself to the listeners. Great.
(01:22):
Well, thank you very much for having me, Zoe.
So my name is Fathma, as you said, and
I founded a consultancy called Social Impact Reporting.
So my personal specialism is
in social impact measurement.
So that effectively means helping different kinds
of organisations to track and report on
the social impact that they are making.
So that could be for a charity that's working
(01:45):
directly with local communities, or it could be for
a larger corporate that has different kind of funding
parts and just trying to understand what social impact
means for them, tracking data against their outcomes and
putting that together into nicely designed reports.
Oh, fantastic.
And thank you so much for being here today, Fathma.
I think it's going to be really useful for
(02:07):
everybody listening because I imagine there's people here that
have never heard of this type of work before.
So do you want to tell us a little bit
about what it is and what it kind of means?
I guess in the grand scheme of
community and those sorts of things.
So to start with, kind of what does social impact mean?
So in general, there isn't necessarily like a very
(02:30):
accepted definition that everybody agrees on, but in general,
it's about having a positive change that affects a
group of stakeholders and that is defined very, very,
relatively depending on who you are and what is
the positive change that you are trying to affect.
There are loads of kind of adjacent terms that exist.
(02:50):
Things like ESG, environmental, social and governance is
used a lot in the corporate space.
In the past we've used terms
like corporate social responsibility a lot.
And then in terms of measurement specifically,
you'll hear terms like monitoring and evaluation,
which is used a lot more in
kind of the development and charity space.
And all of these things are interconnected
(03:12):
and all related to social impact.
But yeah, from like the measurement perspective.
My specialism is in measurement, and measurement
is about tracking to what extent the
social impact change has occurred.
Once you have run a project. Oh, wow. Okay, thank you.
And I think probably some of those
terms some people are familiar with.
I know CSR was definitely a big thing when I
(03:35):
was working in HR and then I saw that evolve
more into ESG over the last however many years.
So that's quite interesting.
How do people measure social impact then?
It is a great question and it very much depends
on what it is that you are trying to track.
I think the kind of overall principles for measuring your
(04:00):
impact are to have a really well defined goals.
So if you're able to really articulate what are the
outcomes and the impacts that you're hoping to see and
at different timeframes, and then from that you can have
a good idea of what the data points would be
that you should try to track to see the extent
to which those are being realised or not.
Because I think traditionally, when we're looking at social
(04:23):
impact work or trying to create positive difference, say,
if you had an impact project that was trying
to educate young people who are looking for work,
traditionally the metrics that you would look at might
include, you know, who showed up to the trainings,
how many hours did they attend, what kind of
things were they looking at?
And while those things are really important, the
metrics that are really meaningful go beyond what
(04:45):
happens when those people leave the room.
So things like how many people were able to secure
interviews as a result of that training, how many people
were able to secure part time or full time work,
how long were they able to stay in those jobs?
So it's basically looking beyond the metrics that are
a little bit more accessible and straightforward, that historically
we've put a lot more emphasis on and trying
(05:07):
to understand the broader change and the other implications
that result from the project that you do.
And it does become more complicated at that
point, but it's definitely a lot more meaningful
when you have access to that data.
Yeah, and actually that's something that we use a
lot in the learning field and the DEI field.
(05:28):
So we notice it a lot more in
organisations, obviously, than other spaces, community spaces and
stuff like that, because you can track it
all the way through someone's career.
I mean, not necessarily that people are doing this
very well in a lot of organisations, but it's
definitely applicable and it definitely can work.
So I think it's really interesting because we obviously
(05:49):
do lots of measuring with our clients and with
the people that we work with and thinking about
how can they look at that social impact of
the work they're doing internally as an organisation, with
their people, with upskilling, maybe with talent velocity and
helping underrepresented groups to become more senior in the
organisation, more specialists, whatever else it might be, and
(06:11):
how that then positively impacts the outside society.
So I think a lot of the work
that you do kind of goes between those
two, right, because you're talking about the projects
you're doing within society, within the community, that
then can influence organisations and also within organisations.
How can that then start to not just help people
(06:31):
in the organisation but also help outside of it?
Absolutely.
And I think it is trying to look at what are
those broader changes that you're hoping to see and what kind
of is the pathway to impact that you would expect to
see as a result of those particular changes.
Once you're able to have that defined quite well, it's a
lot easier to see in terms of data like what are
(06:53):
the things, what are the changes that you'd be looking for
and how can you try to capture some of those insights?
But it's all very interrelated, it's all very interconnected
and it depends so much on how you define
what impact means for you and your organisation.
So it's really interesting but yeah,
unfortunately not a straightforward answer.
Yeah, no, I don't think it is,
otherwise everyone would be doing it. Right.
(07:14):
And I think what you're saying there about that
and organisations and places that have influence on social
impact, when they're looking at those broader positive change
that they're trying to make, you know, they're trying
to think about those KPI's.
Often they need a lot of help to get there and
that's the sort of stuff that we've done with execs and
(07:37):
boards and stuff like that to help them just to even
start to go, what is it that we actually need?
Because often they don't know because they're so detached
from the rest of the organisation or even from
the customer base that they're serving or the community
that they're sitting in, they can be quite detached
from that just from, you know, being in a
much more senior position and even just having that
(07:59):
role in general or because of some of the
ways in which people progress through their career, they
may be from certain types of backgrounds that are
very disconnected from some underrepresented groups as well.
So I think that's quite interesting and it's definitely
something we spend a lot of time on with
execs and with boards and stuff like that.
Is that something that you
find yourself getting involved in?
(08:21):
I think it is.
There's definitely a lot of parallels.
So, like, one thing that I've kind of found through my
work is that when you do have an organisation that has
a social project or kind of an impact focus, whether it's
through the main business or, you know, as kind of like
a side thing, often they'll have a general idea of what's
the positive change they're trying to create.
(08:41):
But they don't have the ability to articulate that
in a way, in terms of defining success.
Typically it's like we want to do something
good or we want to work with these
people and often it will be reputational.
But when you try to drill down into, okay, what
does this positive impact look like tangibly on the ground?
A lot of organisations don't have the language to
(09:02):
articulate that or to really explain that, even if
they've been doing that work for years and they
anecdotally know what it looks like.
So I find that really interesting and it's really a
case of kind of like interrogating what their assumptions and
core beliefs are that are maybe implicit to the organisation
and just trying to put that down on paper.
And I feel like there's parallels in terms of the
(09:22):
work that you do as well, and forcing those organisations
to look inwards as well as outwards and trying to,
like, improve their outreach and trying to kind of see
what progress looks like from another person's perspective.
I think there's something really useful in what
you just said there about language as well.
And it's something that keeps coming up every podcast
(09:43):
that we're recording, not surprisingly, because we notice a
lot in the work that we do in Dei.
Michael Reed, who's a linguistic expert, we did a
podcast with him recently and obviously he's all about
language and all about how it can change the
way people perceive things, change the way people even
look at Dei in general.
(10:05):
And then, interestingly, we had another
podcast with one of the best
behavioural scientists that we know, Irfan.
And he was talking about how language has
evolved, but not really in the last 20
years since he's been in place.
So I find it really interesting that
you've picked up on it as well.
It's definitely a theme that's coming through, whether
it's the internal Dei work organisations are doing
(10:26):
or that wider social impact piece.
You can really start to see how important language is in
playing a part, and like you say, learning how to articulate
what it is and what it means to the organisation and
how it might or might not align to the core beliefs
of the individual or the organisation as well.
So that's always a really interesting conversation to have,
(10:46):
I think, with especially those most senior people in
the organisation, because they tend to be the ones
that are living and breathing the values and really
putting out all of those important kind of cultural
pieces from the organisation, but sadly so disconnected sometimes
from the reality of what that's like out in
the wider world.
Yeah, absolutely.
(11:07):
It's very true and it is.
I mean, like, language is just so powerful in terms of
how we communicate and like, a big part of the work
that I do in terms of measurement is about reporting.
So, like, once you have data, once you have an understanding
of, you know, the impact that you are making in terms
of, like, data, in data points, how do you communicate that
(11:30):
externally and how do you make sure that it's like, received
in a way that you want it to be received and
that is tailored for different audiences and it's such a big
part of the whole puzzle, just making sure that you are
able to communicate and present yourselves in a way that's consistent
with your values. Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, listen, that's like
marketing 101 in general, right?
Even if you take any of the social
(11:53):
impact, the human behaviour stuff out of it,
that's basically the minimum of what organisations should
be thinking about in general.
I'm really interested because you've used the word parallel
a couple of times and I definitely see it,
hence why we've had conversations before, hence why I
asked you to come on here.
I think I'm really interested to hear to what
extent Dei plays a role in designing and implementing
(12:17):
social impact projects from your point of view.
A great question.
So I think one of the things that well
designed impact projects will have is a big focus
on stakeholder engagement and that's kind of across all
levels and a lot of the time that will
include, like, community stakeholders, so who are potentially, you
(12:39):
know, the beneficiaries of the project, who will be
engaging, who will be benefiting.
And I think that's where, like, De and I
can have a really big role to play.
Just making sure that your stakeholder engagement is really
context relevant in terms of where you're physically situated
and making sure that you are speaking to the
(13:01):
audiences that are relevant to you, even if they're
perhaps some groups that you might not have engaged
with before as an organisation and trying to be
really conscious of making sure that those stakeholders are
representative of the change that you're trying to make
and the type of organisation that you are and
where you are as well.
(13:21):
That's been a really good example, I guess, of where kind
of diversity and inclusion fits in with impact work and it's
a big risk as well, of trying to do a social
impact project and where a lot of them can fail.
So it's, I think, underappreciated for how
important it is in the impact space. Yeah.
And I think with the, you know, the anti Dei
(13:44):
rhetoric that's happening at the moment because of various things
that are happening in politics and all sorts of things,
and not just in the UK, you know, we feel
things in the UK that are happening in the US,
in this space because there's such a close connection on
some of the challenges we face in systematic barriers.
So I think it's a really valid point, actually,
(14:06):
that we need to think about where it does
get a bit of a bad rap.
And actually a big part of our role in
DeI feels like at the moment is PR.
We're trying to get people to understand,
okay, it's ebbs and flows in Dei.
People get really involved in it when something big
happens in the community space and then it kind
(14:27):
of goes down when budgets get cut and things
are a little bit tighter and then people all
of a sudden really care about it.
So I think our job is to make sure
we keep showing people the positive impact of the
work that we're doing and it can be, of
course, internally with the DEI work we're doing.
And it can also, of course, like you're saying,
be that social impact work and there's no reason
it can't be both of those things.
(14:48):
We've seen it happen with organisations where we have
developed a DEI learning programme for them and actually
that's changed the culture of the organisation.
It's then naturally split out into recruiting
much more representative people from the community
and those sorts of things.
So that's been a really beautiful thing
to be able to see that social
(15:09):
impact, but we definitely see some challenges
with organisations in quantifying the social impact.
So I'm really interested to hear your
thoughts on this because I know this
is something you're really passionate about.
So how do you think some of these organisations,
or not even how, what are some of the
challenges that these organisations are facing and actually, how
(15:30):
might they be able to overcome them?
I think it is just generally difficult to quantify
what are often abstract concepts, you know, so if
you're trying to understand, like increase in well being.
What does that look like in a data point?
So that's kind of where it goes back to
interrogating your assumptions and your beliefs and trying to
(15:52):
force a definition out of your organisation.
So the way that I work is that I'll work
with kind of project leaders or an organization's leadership to
help them to really define what their impact vision is
and then work out what the pathway to impact is.
Using the theory of change framework, which I know we've
spoken about before, and then using that as a starting
(16:16):
point, you can really drill down into each kind of
building block of that impact and trying to understand, if
I was to look for this change in the real
world, what could I expect to see?
Because not every change is necessarily observable.
Like if you're looking at a change in mindset or
attitude or something like that, it's not necessarily a behaviour
(16:37):
point that you can always observe, but there might be
something adjacent to that that you could observe or, you
know, ways of asking questions that are, you know, not
too leading or things like that.
So just thinking about what's accessible to you and
trying to just explore the, the options that exist.
And I think just having a starting point is,
is better than floundering with too many unknowns.
(17:00):
So if you're able to just ask a few
questions that maybe are quite rudimentary in the first
instance, it will give you a starting point of
the kind of outcomes that you're looking for.
And hopefully from there you can refine and improve.
And I would say try not to get
overwhelmed or like bogged down in the detail.
Just try to focus on a few key points and
try to look for things that are accessible and not
(17:21):
going to take a huge amount of time and resource
because that's not feasible for a lot of organisations.
Yeah, and I think the word overwhelm
is probably really, really important with this
because I think you're so right.
Like, if people don't know where
to start, they tend not to.
And we see this with more traditional organisations that know
that they've got a lot of work to do in
(17:43):
this space and they really want to do the work,
but they don't know where to start.
So it kind of creates this
decision paralysis around what they're doing.
So they never really quite get started because
they don't really know where to start.
They're also terrified they're going to get things
wrong and they're going to make it worse.
So that's always a big challenge as well.
I'm really interested because you just mentioned the theory of
(18:05):
change framework, which we've talked about, but just for people
listening to this now, could you explain to them, because
I think this is a really good framework for people
to be able to start to think about how they
might be able to apply it. Absolutely.
So it's quite foundational to how I work.
But the theory of change framework, it's one of a
type of logical framework, so there's a few that exist,
(18:26):
but theory of change is the one that I found
that's the easiest to work with and effectively, it helps
you to map, to map out what your impact project
looks like, taking you from what is the problem that
you're trying to solve?
Who are the main stakeholders involved in that
particular issue, and then looking at what are
(18:49):
the potential activities you could do to support
those target beneficiary groups, what are the outputs?
So if you have a project, what
are the direct results of that project?
So that could be like, how many people show up to
your training or how many food parcels have you distributed?
Something like that.
And then beyond the outputs,
(19:10):
you're looking at the outcomes.
Typically there's three outcome levels.
The first level outcome is short term, and
that's typically an internal change to a person.
So that could be a change in
belief, understanding, attitude, perception, something like that.
Second level outcomes are medium terminal and they
are typically seen in a behavioural change.
(19:31):
So that could be, how are those
first level outcomes then translated into behaviour?
So if someone's learned something, how has that changed?
How they're approaching a certain issue or
like their job hunt, for example.
And then third level outcomes are broader, so
they are typically felt like an organisational or
a societal level, but it's effectively the cumulative
(19:53):
effect of those behavioural changes at an individual
level and how they aggregate up.
And the idea is that those three outcome levels
then contribute to your overall big impact vision.
So that could be like one or two kind of statements of
that big kind of blue sky thinking goal that you have.
So once you have all those stages of outcomes
(20:14):
defined, it gives you a better understanding of the
types of change that you would expect to see
at different levels in different timeframes.
And then from that you can try to
define some indicators to try to collect both
qualitative and quantitative data to see the extent
to which those outcomes are being realised.
The framework helps you to understand effectively the impact pathway
(20:36):
and how to get to your big impact vision. I love that.
And it's so, I think, especially when you see
it written down and someone takes you through it.
It's so simple.
It's one of those things that you're like,
why have I not thought about this before?
Because I know you and I did this
work and I was like, actually, it's not.
It's not as much work as I thought it
was going to be and it's not as overwhelming
as I thought it was going to be.
(20:57):
And for somebody who runs a business that
is all about diversity and inclusion, I thought
I kind of knew all of this stuff.
But actually spending that time with you was really
useful, not just for my business, but I was
able to then pass that, that knowledge on to
the organisations that I'm working with as well.
I'm really interested to hear some thoughts from you and I
might put you on the spot a little bit here.
(21:18):
So apologies if I do, but if we could
just say to organisations, say that they are running
their DEI programmes and they also want to have
a bigger social impact as an organisation, what are
the three metrics that we think that organisations could
(21:38):
focus on that are really going to help them?
So rather than having to think about too many things,
what are just three simple metrics for them to just
get started, to start to understand their social value?
Hmm.
I really put you on the spot here.
I think it's so dependent on what
it is that you're trying to achieve.
(21:59):
But I think maybe if I was to try to
pick a couple of metrics from a DEI perspective, I
think if we were to look at things that are
perhaps a little bit beyond the obvious, like demographic type
stats, I'm sure these are things that you've spoken about
and work with your clients about, but if we look
at things like, what's the progression, like of different types
(22:21):
of minorities within that, or underrepresented people within that organisation,
or things like, what is your kind of dispute management
conflict resolution process in your organisation, how is that working?
Do you just receive complaints from a certain demographic
or is it a little bit more mixed?
I'm sure these are things you've
(22:41):
come across before in terms of.
From an impact perspective, it really depends on what
it is that you are trying to do.
From an internal perspective, I guess it would.
The easiest things are output metrics.
So, like, do you have, like, donation schemes in place?
Do you have volunteering days?
So that's kind of, I guess, more employee
(23:01):
centric, not necessarily working with, like, external communities,
and it's a little bit more CSR focused.
But if you were to have more
of an external social impact project.
I think it would really depend on what
your organisation is trying to do and how
you could add value to the community.
And typically that's like the way that I will
start working with any client is just really understanding
(23:23):
what are your organisational priorities and then how could
you leverage the assets that you already have as
an organisation to bring additional support to the community
that you're already engaged with?
And it's about trying to
capture those lowest hanging fruit.
So it's a little bit harder to say from
the social impact perspective because it really depends on
what type of project you're trying to do or
(23:46):
what type of impact you're trying to create.
But you can start with just a couple of
fairly simple metrics and take it from there.
That's really fantastic.
And actually I think that that's really useful because
some of the DEI metrics that a lot of
organisations use, they're very good at demographics in that
(24:06):
kind of knowing who is working in the organisation,
but they really struggle to see it as people
progress, they really struggle to see it, like you
say, with dispute resolution and stuff like that.
So that's a really useful
tip, I think, for organisations.
And then, like you say, those
are some really simple metrics there.
How, you know, who are the volunteer days, how many
(24:26):
are there from an internal point of view, if it
is about representation, how are you working with the local
community that is represented in your organisation?
So there could be some really interesting
ways to use it there as well.
And I think that's a really good thing for people
to think about because it can feel really overwhelming, it
can feel really hard to know where to start.
(24:47):
So I think those are just a few
simple things that people can start with.
And often when we're talking about those more internal
employee related ones, that demographic data, some organisations find
really hard to get that data, so people don't
want to tell them that information.
And actually I say to these organisations that.
(25:07):
But that's actually data in itself.
The fact that your people don't feel
comfortable enough to share aspects of their
identity with you is your baseline.
So there's actually some safety work that
you need to do with people.
So a, they know what you're doing with that data and that
you're going to use it for something positive and b, that it's
going to be a safe space for them to be able to
(25:27):
share that data with you in the first place.
So actually I think any data is
going to be really, really useful.
So like you said, just starting with something is
a really really good way to get going.
And I think besides numbers then.
So what other types of evidence do you
think is important for assessing social impact work
of the DEI work organisations are doing?
(25:50):
So when I look at measuring social impact projects, I
will always have a mixture of quantitative and qualitative data
to try to understand how, how those, like how the
success of that project is being realised.
And both are really helpful because quantitative metrics
(26:13):
can be really useful in understanding kind of
the scale and the reach of the work,
whereas qualitative metrics, they can really be helpful
in understanding the depth and kind of the
richness of how that project has gone.
And often in terms of social impact projects, especially
(26:33):
if it's a new project, there can be lots
of learnings where you wouldn't necessarily know which questions
to ask to understand how to improve the next
time you do the same project.
So having more open ended qualitative
questions can be really, really helpful.
So even just very broad things in terms
(26:53):
of general, like how could we improve questions?
Or things like how did you benefit?
Or how would you have expected to benefit?
Often if you can do pre and post surveys or
interviews that can give really good comparative data for you
to gain a much like deeper insight of how that
change has affected that particular beneficiary group, again, the exact
(27:17):
questions you would ask would we depend on what it
is that you're trying to do with that project?
But yeah, I suppose, like from it, from a de
and I perspective, it would really be trying to, as
you've said, like defining that baseline and then understanding what
the change has been from that baseline.
So just kind of like using the data that
you already have accessible to you and trying to
add to that and see where kind of the
(27:38):
lowest tagging fruit are and making those changes and
seeing where the next areas for growth would be.
I love that.
And it's really interesting because when you were talking
then about the pre and post feedback or surveys
or whatever it's going to be, it's really interesting
because we do a lot of that in the
learning field and we definitely translate that over to
(27:59):
the DEI learning field quite easily as well.
But what we found over the years with DEI learning
is often people will score and scale themselves much higher
in areas, then they'll come to the DEI learning, they'll
realise they didn't know what they didn't know, and then
they'll actually score themselves sometimes lower.
So that in itself can be really useful as long
(28:21):
as we set the expectations for the employers so they
know that that is the case, but I think the
way you're using them probably is an even better way
to use it because that's the way people are feeling
about things and their expectations of those things and whether
or not it matched the actual project itself.
So that can be really useful as well.
(28:43):
But it's just something that came to mind then.
It's just something we find quite often when we do a
bit more of a scaling data collection in that way.
I guess that's another example as well of where
like the importance of language and understanding kind of
comes into play, because that's something that we see
as well in terms of people responding to questions
(29:03):
but not necessarily knowing what they don't know and
that kind of affecting how they respond and what
their perception is of a particular issue.
And then once they go through a particular
programme, then their understanding and perception will change
and therefore their responses will change.
So that is very interesting.
There isn't necessarily a clear cut way in
(29:24):
terms of how to deal with that.
I think that is one of those things that you iterate
and you improve as you go through and you get better
at knowing how to ask the questions in a way that
they can be answered a little bit more uniformly.
Very, very interesting to see how
those data points come back.
And I think your point around having both, I'm
going to try say this wrong now, but having
(29:45):
both quantitative and qualitative data is really, really important
because they paint the picture together and that's basically
what you're trying to do with this, right?
You're trying to establish what is it and in
your case, what is the biggest social impact piece
that we're going to get from this?
Before and after, of course.
And for us it's similar, but it's very much
based around the organisational point in the middle.
(30:07):
That's really interesting.
And just before we finish off, I'm really interested to
hear your thoughts on looking forward and how you think
data is going to continue to evolve and continue to
shape the DEI efforts and how we can make a
much bigger social impact in the work that we're doing.
There are abs and flows in terms of
(30:28):
how much attention like organisations pay to this
type of stuff, as you have mentioned earlier.
But I do think there is becoming a broader
appreciation of kind of more meaningful data points.
So looking beyond the simple kind of output metrics,
demographic metrics, so I am hopeful that more organisations
(30:50):
are able to leverage the things that they already
have and are able to invest a little bit
more time and effort into trying to track things
that are a little bit more meaningful in terms
of the future for organisations that are trying to
improve their DNI or their social impact tracking.
I would say to start with the heat of the
data that you already do have, whatever is already accessible
(31:12):
to you, because it's often the case as well that
organisations will have data that they're not necessarily using to
the, to the best of ability that they could, and
then trying to see where the existing gaps are and
what the lowest hanging fruit is.
Because the intention isn't with De and I or
with social impact to make your life difficult.
You know, like it is about trying to
(31:33):
just improve things from where you are.
And you can only really do that
if you know where you are now.
So just have a good understanding of where you do
sit and have, I guess, a little bit of openness
to learning and then trying to develop it from there
and tapping into resources for help and organisations where you
(31:55):
need them, and then trying to focus on kind of
deeper metrics like, you know, things like retention or sense
of belonging or, you know, having a review of like
the types of work and leave policies and all of
that kind of stuff when the time is right. I love that.
So layering up the data rather than trying to do
everything right now, use what you've got, there's definitely going
to be something useful that you can use to get
(32:17):
started, just to benchmark exactly where you are and then
slowly layer it up so then you've got much more
data to work with and much easier pictures to paint,
basically, exactly from what you've got there.
I love that.
Thank you so, so much.
I could talk to you about this for days
and I think we have talked to each other
about this lots before, but I really, really appreciate
(32:37):
you spending some time with us today.
I know that there's been some really
useful things that people can take away.
I'm hoping that some of the senior leaders
listening to this are able to understand that
data doesn't need to feel overwhelming.
Actually, just starting, just doing something is going to
be really useful in the work that we're doing.
Thank you very much, Zoe, it's been lovely
(32:59):
speaking with you and yeah, looking forward to
hearing the next episodes of your podcast.
Lovely, thanks, Fathma, speak to you soon. Thanks.
Well, we hope that you liked that episode.
What a fantastic amount of
(33:20):
information there from Fathma.
I loved the way she was talking about some
of those different positive differences that we can make.
Also just explaining that theory of change framework, because I
think it's such a great simple way for us to
start to think about how we can start to measure
the work that we're doing, whether we're in an organisation.
Even if you're not in the field of diversity,
(33:42):
equity and inclusion, I think there's something really useful
to take away from there as well. Thanks for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.
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