May 15, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, we talk to Grace Cooper. Grace shares the unique advantages and challenges she’s faced due to her intersecting identities, along with common misconceptions about neurodiversity.
She highlights the role of supportive allies and offers examples of how they’ve made a difference in her journey.
Grace also discusses moments of feeling misunderstood and how she handled them. We explore ways career spaces can better support individuals with underrepresented identities, and the changes Grace hopes to see in society and business approaches to diversity and inclusion.
A powerful conversation on allyship and creating more inclusive spaces.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Welcome to another episode of our Zing Learning podcast,
a conversation with now today we're diving into a
really powerful conversation about what it's like to navigate
the working world as a black woman with ADHD.
We're looking at that both professionally in the
corporate space, but also as an entrepreneur.
Now our fantastic guest, Grace Cooper shares the
(00:34):
unique challenges and advantages that she has faced
along the way, whilst also helping to break
down some of the biggest misconceptions around neurodiversity.
Now we're going to explore lots of really great
things around supportive allies, all of the things that
have made a difference to her and her journey
in this space, some things that have made her
feel misunderstood but also maybe even unsupported.
(00:56):
And of course, the opposite side where
she's had some really great support.
We'll also discuss how career spaces
can revolve to better support individuals
with different intersecting, underrepresented identities.
And actually, Grace is going to share some
of the things and the changes that she
hopes to see that businesses, but also society
(01:17):
as a whole, can do when we're really
thinking about creating that real intersectional inclusion.
So grab a cup up, kick back and take a listen.
Hello and welcome to the podcast.
We are here today to talk to an absolutely incredible
woman that I have had the opportunity to work with
(01:38):
and collaborate with on various different projects before.
Grace Cooper.
Grace is here to talk to us today
about some of her experiences throughout her career
and some of those intersectional experiences.
Being a black woman and somebody that also has adhd
and what that's been like in the corporate field, working
in employment, but also as an entrepreneur as well.
(01:59):
So I'm not going to introduce Grace, I'm
going to get Grace to introduce herself.
So welcome, Grace.
Hi, thanks for having me.
My name's Grace Cooper.
I would say I am a creative.
I'm currently working as a host for great co
working space in London in Brixton called Impact Brixton.
(02:20):
And when I'm not doing that, I am a virtual assistant.
And I've also set up my own
company for creatives called colourful Creatives.
And it's about getting young people from the
ages of 16 to 25 into the creative
fields who wouldn't normally have access to those
spaces, especially at such a young age.
(02:42):
It could be for work experience or internships.
It's about how I help them get into those spaces. Yeah.
So that's what I do. That's amazing.
And because of your experience throughout your career,
you're really well placed to do that.
And I think also, you know, you're talking
about impact Brixton there and being one of
the hosts here and that's how we met.
(03:05):
And obviously we've been working in impact Brixton
for about three years now, I think.
Yeah, so we're part of the family for
sure and we definitely feel that way.
But I think all of that experience that you have
brought in, it just is such a wonderful thing for
you to now be able to give that back.
That's what I want.
(03:25):
That's what I want to do.
Because I've seen, believe it or not, I am
a lot older than people perceive me to be.
So when they see me, they can't wrap their
mind around whether all the jobs that I've been
in, what I've seen throughout my lives, they're quite
surprised by how much experience I have.
So, yes, it's one of the reasons why
(03:46):
I thought, actually I want to help younger
people navigate the working system because I didn't
have that help when I was younger either.
And I think it's really important for them to have
that sort of support when going into the working field.
So, yeah, want to give back, want
to help out, always have done. I love that.
And I think, yeah, like you say, you definitely.
(04:08):
I think because it's your energy, you've got such a
vibe about you, like, it's just such a beautiful.
You just give people lots of energy when they meet you.
They probably think, oh, she's probably in her twenties, new
rivers have been in her twenties for a while.
You definitely have a lot more energy than me and
(04:28):
my company is called Zing because it's got energy.
You put us to shame.
But no, I think that's really beautiful as well.
And I think that giving back from your own experience
and being able to, that is so, so important.
And I think that is just the
ethos of impact Brixton as well.
That's why so many amazing organisations
(04:51):
work in this fantastic space.
Yeah, absolutely.
I didn't realise that until a few
years ago that that's what we do.
We all want to learn from our experiences
and help the next generation or even just
your, your peers along the way.
We just want support.
Everybody just wants support.
And it's always helpful to have somebody
who has navigated those fields really well.
(05:14):
Definitely in impact Brixton, there's a lot
of those people, so it's great to
have that sort of support around us. I love that.
And you're so right.
Like, I think I definitely struggled in different ways.
We obviously have very different intersecting
identities in lots of different dimensions.
Yeah, but there were some things that I struggled to get
to in my career because I didn't know where to look
(05:36):
and I didn't really have a mentor and a coach until
I was much, much later in my career.
And that was really tough.
And I know there's a lot of
people that have worked really hard.
Like, we have to get to a good point
in our career, especially a lot of women as
well, where they're like, well, I've worked this hard,
you know, why should you have it easy?
But actually, why not create an easier
(05:56):
space for people to come come through?
You know, I've obviously got some
privileges that you don't have.
You will have something that I don't have
as well with regards to privileges, and I
think it's about creating that space for people
that have very underrepresented areas of different aspects.
So creative.
We know there's massive under representation, loads of
different identities in the creative field, so I
(06:18):
love that you're doing that and there's a
couple of other really great organisations around here
that are doing that well.
So that's lovely to be around.
I'm really interested to hear a little bit about your
experience then, because you are a black woman and you
are a black woman that also has ADHD.
So I'm really interested to hear
how that has been for you.
(06:39):
I guess maybe how it's evolved
from when you were in the.
I'm going to use the term corporate.
I know it wasn't super corporate, but I guess,
employment field when you were an employee to how
your experiences evolved now that you're an entrepreneur.
Yeah, I was only recently diagnosed.
I think it was the beginning of last year.
(06:59):
Only because, you know, you're watching videos, you're
hearing people talking about the same things, and
this was languages that you hadn't heard before,
but you could resonate with tremendously.
And it did make me start thinking back
to those times at work where I was
either deemed difficult or, yeah, Moody.
(07:21):
I was thinking back on one of my first roles and
it's now that I look back I realise, oh, I wasn't
moody, I was hyper focused and that person just kept on
interrupting me and I could never get back to work.
And that was so early on
working for a photographer's agency.
And although I left, I think a few years
(07:44):
later, I wish I had stayed with that because
I feel as though once I had figured those
things out, I would have excelled at that role.
As a result.
I've noticed that in my roles, I've only ever
been in those jobs for about three years and
then I leave because it either becomes overwhelming or.
(08:06):
And it's only overwhelming, I've realised, is when
I've put my all into that job.
So as somebody with ADHD, I didn't realise that.
They say it's like a people pleasing thing that
we do where we just want to make people
happy and we want to do the most.
It takes it out of you in
(08:28):
those years that you're doing that.
And then I think coming to the end, you're realising
that, not that nobody appreciates you, you seem to think
that no one's appreciating the work that you're doing.
But I just realised it's just one of
those symptoms of having ADHD, it's the things
that you've got to deal with.
I think in those corporate situations, I feel
like I was just giving way too much
(08:48):
of myself and not getting anything in return.
And as a result, it just results in you
just moving from job to job to job.
And that in itself can be extremely tiring.
And it got to a point now where I realised I
can't keep going back into the corporate world and coming back
out and going back in again because it's not sustainable.
(09:08):
I'm feeling burnout all the time from how
much energy I'm putting into all of it.
So it's been difficult to navigate, but it's also been
a huge eye opener to realise these were the issues
that you were having and it's not anything to do
with you, it's just that you didn't know how to
deal with it in those circumstances.
That makes sense.
Yeah, completely.
(09:29):
And I think that there's something really
interesting about that that you said, if
I'd have known, I would have stayed.
So this was a job that you really liked?
Oh, my gosh.
This was one of my favourite, like,
when I think back at it.
So photography agencies, I was working
with high profile magazine editors and
the most famous photographers out there,
(09:52):
beauty photographers, fashion photographers, stylists.
It was my dream job. I'm a creative.
I loved working in that space.
I loved seeing what these people created and them
having an opinion on how I set up their
portfolios for every job that they went. Went for.
However, because it moved really fast, I had to
(10:16):
keep an eye on so many moving like pieces
that if I got sidetracked, I'd lose it.
And this was years ago, so I was trying to think.
People are like thinking, oh, you could have just
used that app or that we didn't have those
apps back then, it was literally write this stuff
down and hope for the best, basically. Yeah.
(10:37):
Because there's always something happening and
they always needed something from me.
It was very hard for me to keep remembering.
And that's another thing I always said when I was
younger, for many years, I've always had a problem with
my short term memory and people didn't believe me.
They just thought it was just okay.
Yeah, some people have great long term memory and
(10:58):
some people don't have great short term memories.
No, my short term memories, absolutely terrible.
And in a world where you need to know what's happening
all the time, it just wasn't working out in that role.
So, yeah, one of my favourite jobs.
Wish I had stayed, but I think there were things
(11:18):
that probably would have helped me along the way had
I known I had adhd, because then people have been
like, oh, maybe you should try doing things this way.
Maybe you should try setting up this procedure
or try doing it a different way.
There was no suggestions.
It was either do it their way or no way, basically.
So it didn't work out very well for
(11:40):
me because I couldn't navigate how they worked.
It was very.
Yeah, it let me down. It.
Yeah, it upset me for many years. It upset me.
Yeah, no, I can hear that now.
I can hear that in your voice that actually this
is a job that you really didn't want to leave.
Yeah, I've definitely had that before where I've had
(12:02):
a job that I've absolutely loved and I didn't
want to leave, but circumstances have made me have
to leave and I'm the same as you.
Like, I don't have any form of neurodiversity, I guess.
I guess we're all neurodivergent
because we're all different.
But I don't have anything specific, but I
definitely connect with that idea that it's really
(12:25):
hard to focus for a lot of people.
And when you do finally focus, if someone breaks that
focus, it's really hard to get back into that and
therefore you feel like you're failing at your job.
You might even have, you might even be really
unlucky and have a boss that says that you're
failing at that job because they don't see what's
actually really happening, then they don't know how to
(12:47):
support you to do your best work.
And I think, like you say, it's definitely much
better now because people talk about it much more.
Women are getting diagnosed a lot more now.
That was never really a thing.
And I'm interested to hear your thoughts
on this as well because, you know,
your experience is very intersectional.
So you working in this job that you loved, and
(13:07):
you going through jobs like you say, relative quick turnover
because of the fact that you probably were too smart
for some of the jobs as well, and you probably
got bored at points because it wasn't stimulating enough, but
then you might be overstimulated.
So it's just a really hard balance.
And if you don't know at that point that you
have ADHD, it's really hard for you to even know
(13:29):
how to support yourself and how to find ways of
working and set up your workspace in a certain way
and your hours in a certain way, hence why running
your own business is normally the best idea.
Yeah, but I'm interested to hear your experience
because obviously you are somebody that has ADHD.
Every single person will have a different experience, of course,
(13:50):
but if you are a man that has ADHD, the
chances are you have been diagnosed much younger, probably when
you were a boy, because the symptoms are much more
aware of what the obvious symptoms are.
And I use obvious with air quotes when
they're little boys, whereas with little girls.
And you've got people pleaser
thing that you said earlier.
I wonder if there's an element
(14:11):
of that that gets missed.
So you've got that element.
So you're a woman with ADHD, which means the chances
of you getting diagnosed, as you were probably having to
push your doctor to do this to get the referral,
then you obviously also are a black woman.
And we also know, especially within healthcare,
(14:31):
how difficult that can be to be
taken seriously for all sorts of things.
There's lots of studies and research about this stuff.
This isn't something that we're just making up.
But I'm interested to hear from your opinion.
Do you think you might have had a different career trajectory
if you were not a black woman that has ADHD?
If you were, say, a white man or
(14:52):
a white woman or something like that? Oh, my God.
Yes, without a doubt.
Straight away I can see.
Although in saying that, I know I have
a very lively and personality and quite engaging
personality, and I know that's like the first
thing everybody obviously latches onto.
(15:14):
But then when you realise you can't
do that all the time, I need.
I need to break away from people all the time.
All the time.
So I'll be happy and energetic, like one
day, and then the next day I probably
just won't have that energy for you.
And that's when the moodiness, quote unquote,
(15:36):
comes in to it, because they feel
as though there's something wrong with you.
Like you've switched as.
Yeah, and as especially as a black woman as well.
You're deemed.
You know, they say it. They say.
I say they.
It has been said about young, about
(15:56):
black women being difficult or moody or.
Yeah, the terms that they've used
to describe the person, it has.
I've oftentimes tried to not be that way or not be
seen that way, and as a result, you push yourself too
(16:18):
far, which then results in the burnout or the.
And I use these terms because we know them now, but
back then, it was literally like, what is wrong with me?
I'm tired. I don't want to do anything.
I want to stay at home.
I don't want to talk to anybody.
We didn't know what those words are.
I know we use it quite fluently now, but it literally
(16:39):
is the only terminology that best describes how you feel when
you're just doing too much to satisfy the needs of other
people and to try and also hide how you're feeling and
how you're coping with everything as well.
I didn't realise I did that until
my cousin spoke to me about it.
(17:00):
She just noticed the difference how I was
at work and home, and she just.
It's not that I put on a show, it's just that
I give everybody everything in that moment, and then when I'm
at home or with family or anything, I oftentimes retreat because
I've just given way too much energy to the outside world
(17:24):
and, yeah, putting on a show, trying not to be deemed
as the difficult black woman at work as well. Yeah.
Trying to do things the way
everybody else wants them done.
When you know better or you think it should be,
you want to try it in a different way.
It's exhausting.
(17:44):
And I don't even think I do
like those top notch, like, jobs.
I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a doctor, I've not.
I don't have to navigate those pathways, but in the
little world that I live in, in the jobs that
I do, even that has tired me out.
And, yeah, we're tired of it.
And, yeah, I do believe that life
(18:06):
probably would have been a bit.
A lot different if I was like
a white male navigating the working world.
Yeah, no one would have called that man Moody if he
was, you know, he's just different from one day to next.
They'd say he was concentrating on something.
Cause he's busy with work or he's got
a lot on his mind at the moment.
(18:28):
Not that, maybe, yeah, this person just needs
to take some time out and needs to
concentrate on this work at this moment.
But especially as women, we feel that we have
to be available to everybody at all the time.
And that in itself is just exhausting.
Very exhausting.
(18:49):
Yeah, it's really interesting because when you were talking
then, all of the words I was thinking and
writing down, you were literally about to say them.
So when you were talking about the stereotypes that
are attached to women, and especially to black women,
the word difficult came up because you're told as
(19:10):
a woman, to just, you know, be there in
the background, make sure you don't make any noise,
just, you know, sit there quietly, etcetera.
And of course, listen, I'm generalising.
This is a really old, traditional thing that was said,
but it's a still very much a hangover that a
lot of us have had to really fight against.
But especially as a black woman, you don't
want to be seen as aggressive or difficult
(19:32):
or any of those stereotypical, ridiculous words that
are attached to black women in general.
And then you were really interesting because you were talking
about masking, because you were talking about, I need to
make sure that I don't come across as moody or
difficult when I know that's not what I'm doing, but
I'm having to mask that part of me because that
(19:55):
is how people are going to see it.
So that's your ADHD connecting really closely to the fact
that you're a woman and also you're a black woman.
So I think that it's.
It's just so interesting, all of those different things.
And like you said, that is exhausting.
And that is what leads to burnout.
It's not overwork, although I guess overwork comes from
that concept of being available all the time and
(20:16):
trying to do the best job and having to
double cheque everything you're doing, because you need to
make sure the way you're coming across to people
isn't going to make them uncomfortable.
That's what you're constantly thinking about.
Oh, my goodness. It's a lot.
Yeah, I've had a lot of.
(20:36):
There's a lot of times where I've argued with
myself whilst talking to somebody about something and I'm
making sure that I'm not making them feel uncomfortable.
I don't know, when I said that to somebody
one day, they were like, that's what you're thinking.
When you're talking to someone, I was like,
yeah, and that's why I'm not concentrating on
what you're talking to me about, because I'm
so hung up about making you feel comfortable
(20:59):
and that's where the exhaustion comes from.
Because we're constantly aware of what and
how we are that we don't.
Yeah, if it was just normal with our friends, it'd
be fine, but we don't want to alienate anybody.
Always thinking about other people.
It's tiring. Oh, my goodness.
It's like a massive responsibility to take
(21:21):
on as one person, to try to
navigate every single other person we're interacting
with, what's going on with them internally. Right.
That's sending your head into a spin.
That's on top of the fact
that you're doing work, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Completing tasks and projects and all of these things.
Stakeholder engagement. Right.
(21:42):
That's pretty typical in any work
kind of relationship, any career.
But if you're having to put that many
layers on top of it just to be
able to function, that is really exhausting.
So the fact that you are as successful as
you are and you've been able to have all
of these wonderful career experiences is phenomenal.
With all of those layers that you've also had to put
(22:03):
on, that's like three times more work than the average Joe
needs to do to be able to do a good job. And it's fine.
What I've realised is it's fine when you're
like, in your twenties and then you get
to your thirties and you're like, okay, so
it's getting a little bit too tired now.
And I'm now getting to my forties.
And this is where I've realised why young
(22:27):
women or women in their forties are being
diagnosed now is because we're literally tired.
We cannot go any further.
Yeah, it's literally, we're at a point
now where we don't know where.
What to do, where to go, how to.
How to handle it because we've been doing.
It was so easy in our twenties.
In our thirties, it was just, okay, maybe
I can do this for a bit longer.
And in our forties, like, we're done. We can't.
(22:48):
We can't do this anymore.
And I feel like that's also why a lot of it's.
I think there was a study on young black women
in their forties are breaking out of the corporate world
and setting up business, their own businesses, because they can't
deal with what they have to deal with.
In those corporate spaces and they know that they're
(23:10):
not going to go any further than whatever level
they reach, so they might as well break out
and start their own, their own businesses.
Whether that's attached to ADHD as well, I'm not sure,
but it's very much apparent with young black women.
Or can we still call ourselves young when we're in our.
Yeah, we can call it, yeah, it's happening
(23:34):
more with young black women and I guess,
yeah, if more women are now being diagnosed,
you'll probably see that a certain percentage of
those PMN are probably neurodivergent as well.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that there's some.
The diagnosis for a lot of people I speak to,
whether it's autism, ADHD, dyslexia, anything at all, the change
(23:54):
that that does in the person's head in the.
They like, oh, that's why this.
And, oh, that's why that.
And it just makes it so much
easier to manoeuvre through day to day
life because you've got something that connects.
You're not, like you say, being moody or difficult.
You're actually having a brain function that
is different to the majority of people.
(24:16):
And therefore the way that the majority of processes and
systems and stuff are set up, especially in the working
world, of course it's not going to work for you.
So that's why you've had to use all of
that energy and work twice or three times as
hard to get to a good result.
And like you say, you know, I mean,
I know you're a massive perfectionist anyway, so
that added onto it to it as well.
(24:37):
Yeah, that's it.
And it's just a huge, it's just a lot of pressure
for one single person to have on them from society, from
the communities, from the career spaces that they've got.
So it's huge.
It's really huge.
It's, it's a massive undertake, I would say.
It's a massive undertake.
I was trying to think something happened the other
(24:57):
day and someone messaged me and said, every time
I ask if you're okay, you seem to think
that I might be upset with you.
And my response was not anything aggressive, it
was one of, oh, no, I'm fine.
I mean, I'm okay.
(25:17):
Do you need something from me?
Is there something I can do?
Like I'm overcompensating now.
It's like, no, I'm literally just asking
if you're okay, if you're a.
You're actually all right.
And I'm constantly thinking, have
I done something wrong?
Is there a reason why they're asking me that I'm okay?
And as a result, again, overcompensating for
that in that moment with them.
(25:40):
And I sat down for a while and read the
message and I thought this is what I do and
I think it's one of those ADHD traits.
So I just explained to him,
I've always, always been like this.
I don't think it's only now that I've
realised this is, well, people obviously let me
know that that's how I respond to things.
(26:01):
I always think I'm in trouble all the
time because I'm a people pleaser as well,
so I don't want to upset them.
So I explained to him this is how I am.
Please don't take it any other way, whether it's I'm
a people pleaser since I was a child or whether
(26:22):
I just, I'm always just thinking I'm in trouble regardless.
Something I recently read is one of the thoughts.
A lot of people who are divergent always think.
They always think that they're in
trouble or they've done something incorrect.
It's just something that I've had to deal with since
I was a child and please don't take it seriously.
(26:44):
It's just a part of me.
I'm absolutely fine.
I did say there are other ways that
we could probably have those conversations that instead
of asking me if I'm okay, maybe ask.
Maybe say, if you need anything, I'm here, or.
Which allows me to come to them to ask
(27:06):
for anything and it makes it feel like it's
a safe space to now ask them for anything.
And they were like, okay, will
definitely do that moving forward.
I was like, that made me feel a lot better.
Whereas before asking was always, yeah, it made
me feel as I've always done something wrong
or they're, they're not actually asking me what's
wrong, then they're probably asking me what's wrong
(27:26):
because I've done something wrong. Does that make sense?
I don't know.
Like they know something and then they're gonna
tell me afterwards what I've done wrong.
And that's how I've literally walked
through my life, my entire life.
But yeah, that's how I've often felt and that was just
an example that popped into my head because I was happy
with the way that I spoke about it and was able
(27:48):
to realise what it was that I was doing. Amazing.
No, I think that that's really interesting and
I think that there's just so much to
unpack in the experiences that everyone has.
And of course everybody's experience
is going to be different.
Of course it is.
But I do think that the kind of background messages
that we get from our families and school, you know,
(28:11):
especially people that have neurodiversity, the school experience is quite
fundamental in the way that they then feel about themselves
when they go into the working world.
Obviously, schools are much better now because they
understand things a lot more, but there's still
a lot of challenges around that.
So I'm really interested to hear
your thoughts on any misconceptions.
So do you think that there's any really big
(28:33):
misconceptions that you have experienced as you've learned more
about your ADHD, as you've got your diagnosis?
What some of the.
Maybe the silliest things people have said to you.
I was talking to somebody the other day about this
and we went on a huge rant about it.
And because I say I've got ADHD, maybe
(28:55):
I should say adD, not ADHD, because they're
so hung up about hyperactivity part.
And that's how young girls have been overlooked,
because we don't display hyperactive manners, mannerisms.
We're not jumping off the walls, we're not
sitting here and not being able to.
(29:18):
We're not fidgeting.
Well, we are fidgeting, actually, but
we're not wanting to get up.
We're fidgeting in a different way. We'll find ways.
We'll doodle, will probably be clicking our
nails or something, or stimming like something.
I didn't realise.
Me and another friend who I found out
through another friend has ADHD, she used to
bounce her leg a lot and I never. We just.
(29:39):
We found it funny.
I was a doodler.
So all my notebooks have doodles in them.
When you look at my school books and
everything, there's just doodles everywhere and something.
I was talking to someone that was like, so many
people are hung up on the hyperactivity part of it.
It's not that we're hyperactive, it's more
(30:00):
the deficit part, which is more important.
So the reason why we can't concentrate on
one thing is because we're concentrating on everything.
It's not that.
It's the one thing I know.
I can hear the humming of the sound in the background.
I can hear the girl talking
or sniffing, and behind me it's.
(30:20):
I can notice the bird constantly flying by the window.
Our attention's everywhere.
We're just trying to pick it all up.
And if there isn't one thing that we're totally
and utterly engrossed in at that time, that's the
only way that we're going to concentrate.
And that's more the hyper focused part of the ADHD.
(30:40):
So it's not that it's an
attention deficit, it's an attention.
What's the opposite of deficit?
It's an abundance.
It's an abundance, yeah, because I'll
be like, can you hear. Can you hear that?
Do you know what that noise is?
Or I'll be listening to
another conversation that's happening.
But our attention's everywhere, so it's not that
we have an attention deficit, it's just that
(31:01):
we're just not concentrating on that one thing.
I spoke to my sister the other day
and she moved and navigated through her home
so well and got so much things done. Done. I said to.
I asked her, how did she do that?
She was like, what do you mean?
I was like, aren't you thinking about all the many different
things that you have to do in order to get there?
She's like, no, I just got up
(31:23):
and decided to go to the gym.
And then I came home and decided to make bread.
And while I was making bread, I did a wash.
And when I did that wash, I.
And I was like, but weren't you thinking, these are
all the things I have to do today, and that's
what stops you from doing the things, because you're constantly
thinking about all the little things that you have to
(31:43):
do and that's what ties you out.
It's just like, no, I just get on with it.
I was like, that's the difference.
That is definitely a difference.
But in order, like, the misconceptions, I think as well,
when people see us, we seem as though we've got
everything under control until we realise we don't.
Because we're creators.
(32:04):
Because most of the time we can be quite creative.
They think that we have a lot of ideas.
It's not that we have a lot
of ideas, we just have different ideas. To yours.
We think slightly differently to how you guys think.
Like, I'll think one thing and I'll notice that seven
people in that group will think the same way.
And that's when I start thinking,
is there something wrong with me?
(32:24):
Am I the one who is wrong?
Because I'm thinking slightly differently.
And it's been at times where I've realised, especially
when at work, everyone will agree on this one
thing and I'm like, that's like nine people, and
I just don't think that way.
There's no way I'm going to think this way, there's no
way I'm going to come up with ideas that way.
(32:44):
And it's only like later down the line when I
feel confident enough to tell them about my ideas.
I've obviously been scared before because everybody thinks that
one way and I've realised I'm thinking a totally
different way when it comes to ideas about things.
And, yeah, it's only when you get a little bit
more confident you realise, maybe I should talk about this.
And when you do, it's very much celebrated and
(33:08):
embraced, but because you're seeing that everybody else is
thinking the same way, you kind of think maybe
the way that you're thinking is wrong, so you
don't share that information right at all.
So that can be a detriment to
yourself if you're not the way.
But that's because I also know that growing
(33:29):
up, I didn't feel as though I was
able to share the different way that.
I think it was just easier to go with the crowd.
I have noticed now, especially with younger
people, they're more confident in sharing that,
but that's because they've been allowed to.
(33:50):
They've been put in spaces where
they're allowed to do that.
But I think growing up, especially in the corporate
world, it's much easier to just go with the.
What's the word?
Go with the majority and keep your weird way
of thinking to yourself because it won't be accepted.
Yeah.
(34:10):
And do you know what, the way you're talking there
is just like some of the words you just used.
So you said, what's.
What's wrong with me?
Is there something wrong with me?
Because I think differently to the
other nine people in the room.
You know, you just said the word weird there and
they're all words that, no doubt at school, maybe early
on in your career, those words would have been attached
(34:31):
to you verbally by teachers or by other pupils, and
then by people at work and.
Or they might have even just inferred it.
So I think that there's something really interesting in
that, because, of course, you're carrying that inside.
You're already having to mask who you are in so
many different ways to make sure that you're being accepted
into that, fold into that norm in the corporate world,
(34:53):
and then you're trying not to rock the boat.
Also, again, to not be a difficult black woman, to
not be moody and all of those things it's just.
It's a lot for one brain to take on
top of trying to actually do the bloody job.
It is a lot, and I'm starting to get
a sense of it because I'm really fortunate.
(35:14):
I've got a lot of people around me that have
ADHD and I think it is a creative thing.
I have a lot of friends that are creative
and those sorts of things, and I've definitely noticed
a lot of similarities in what you've said there
and their experiences with work as well.
I'm really interested to hear about the career spaces that
you've been in and do you think that there's a
(35:36):
way, you know, if not everybody can go out and
set up their own organisation, if people are working in,
in their own employment and those sorts of things.
Is there a way that these spaces,
these employers, these managers, whatever, can better
support individuals that have ADHD or a
variety of intersecting identities attached to that?
(35:58):
There are things.
I know there's been a lot of people who have
spoken to their workplaces about coming out as neurodivergent.
I actually really like that term.
Just coined a new word.
Yay, neurodivergent.
(36:19):
But I know there's a lot of workplaces
who are saying that they're neurodivergent friendly, but
I don't think they actually understand what that
entails because it's different for different people.
I'll give you an example.
And it's only been coming out more and more.
So I knew my whole life I've been a night owl.
(36:41):
I hate waking up in the morning.
I absolutely hate it.
My natural body clock, I wake up at nine.
And also I don't like crowds.
I really hate being in crowds
and I hated morning commutes.
And so I would always try and wait for the last
(37:02):
train to get into work because I knew it'd be the
emptiest, but it meant that I was always late.
So eventually my boss noticed it and then she
said, listen, you're great at what you do, however,
you come in late all the time.
And I explained to her what the problem was
and she said, okay, do you want to see
(37:22):
if you can start at 930 instead?
And I went, yeah, that would be great.
And from then on, I was always coming in
ten minutes early because I caught the right train.
I wasn't anxious from being on the train with so
many people and it resulted in me getting in early.
So this is before being diagnosed as neurodivergent,
(37:44):
because I feel like all my issues, quote,
unquote were brought to the surface when I
was working in that work, in that space.
But I realised her seeing that something wasn't working for
me and then just talking about it resulted in a
much better working dynamic because we realised this isn't working,
(38:08):
so we should try something else now.
If you're neurodivergent and you know these things, at
least that's something that you can go to your
bosses with and explain to them, listen, maybe it's
something like, I actually need headphones to work.
It'd be really great if I could have headphones.
I've worn headphones my entire life, in all
my jobs and all my bosses have hated
(38:29):
it and I never understood why, but I
worked fantastically with headphones or music on.
And if it was just something that, again, workspaces
could provide for people just listening, I think, yeah,
as I said, they can't do anything.
They need to listen to the individual person and just
ask them what it is that they would need need
(38:49):
in order to make this a successful working environment.
I think that's all they need to do and
be open to these suggestions because they'll probably see
that person's workflow just improve massively because they've put
these steps or these things in place for them. Yeah.
There's not a one size fits all solution.
(39:10):
It's more about talking to that person and sharing that
within the company and seeing what you can do.
Some of it doesn't make any of the biggest difference.
Me coming in 20 minutes late, or technically
ten minutes late, it didn't mean anything really.
You just needed to move around a few meetings.
That's literally it.
And it meant I focused better because I
wasn't so stressed out about getting into work.
(39:31):
But it didn't make a difference to them,
but it made a huge difference to me.
So just doing things like that and speaking
to your employees, it's going to make the
biggest difference to all of them. Again. Yeah.
It's not a one size fits all solution.
Speak to an individual.
That's what they need.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you.
And there's a book I always recommend
(39:54):
to organisations that are trying to support
people with various different hidden disabilities.
And I know neurodiversity is
sometimes locked together with disability.
It's a big conversation. It's not one we're going to be
able to have right now, but the
book is called hidden Disabilities and conditions.
And the theme by. I think it's a.
An author called Ted Smith.
(40:15):
And the theme throughout the book is exactly what
you've just said, yeah, these are some experiences of
some people with chronic illnesses, with neurodiversity, with this,
this all the sort of things that aren't super
obvious when you meet somebody.
So actually, there's stories from
people that I really like.
(40:35):
It's very personal, but they give a load of
things, like you just did, then, you know, you
just give, like, three or four different examples of
things that employers can do, which is fantastic.
And like you say, some of them cost no money, some
of them make no changes, and they're actually really easy.
And it completely changes the performance of the
person, the enjoyment and the purpose of that
person doing that work as well, and that
connection and loyalty to the organisation.
(40:57):
Yeah, but actually, it's going to be
different for you to Bob over here.
And I think that's why I recommend
that book, because it's exactly that.
It highlights each chapter, highlights a
different condition and a different disability.
But what it does is it shows
that actually, this is a reminder.
Don't forget, these are some examples, but
it's not going to work for everyone.
(41:17):
Just talk to people, just learn, just get
to know what it is that they need.
And I think opening up that dialogue and having a
manager like you had is a really, really good way
of feeling like you've got some allyship in your workspace
rather than you all the work and all the change
to fit in with a really rigid structure of the
way a corporate world or a particular organisation is working.
(41:41):
So I love that you've shared those
and I think that's a really fantastic
way to wrap up our conversation today.
So I just want to say thank you so much. Thank you.
I know we have lots of really great conversations around
the office, but I just really wanted to get you
here talking about this because I just find it fascinating.
And I think there's lots of people listening to this
(42:02):
that don't understand the concept of intersectional experiences, but also
even just the concept of somebody that has ADHD, you
know, what can that experience be like?
And what are the really simple things we
can do as employers and as managers that
could make a world of difference?
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Thank you for highlighting this.
(42:24):
Thank you for highlighting this.
Thank you so, so much for
spending this time with me today.
I really, really enjoyed it and
can't wait to have another conversation.
Thanks for joining us. Absolutely. Thank you.
Bye bye.
What an amazing episode.
I just absolutely loved how open Grace was
(42:46):
there and really shared some really valuable insights
into her experiences, whether it's navigating the world
as a black woman with somebody that has
ADHD all those things collectively.
Now, of course, Grace shared some really powerful
stories, some really great practical advice, and of
course a really great fresh perspective on what
(43:06):
we can do to be better allies. And listen.
These are the small changes in our organisations that
we can do that can really support and all
of that understanding to make a bigger impact.
So if you you enjoyed this conversation, make sure
that you follow us on LinkedIn and also feel
free to share this podcast episode with other people.
Until next time, see you soon.
Welcome to another episode of our Zing Learning podcast,
a conversation with now today we're diving into a
really powerful conversation about what it's like to navigate
the working world as a black woman with ADHD.
We're looking at that both professionally in the
corporate space, but also as an entrepreneur.
Now our fantastic guest, Grace Cooper shares the
(00:34):
unique challenges and advantages that she has faced
along the way, whilst also helping to break
down some of the biggest misconceptions around neurodiversity.
Now we're going to explore lots of really great
things around supportive allies, all of the things that
have made a difference to her and her journey
in this space, some things that have made her
feel misunderstood but also maybe even unsupported.
(00:56):
And of course, the opposite side where
she's had some really great support.
We'll also discuss how career spaces
can revolve to better support individuals
with different intersecting, underrepresented identities.
And actually, Grace is going to share some
of the things and the changes that she
hopes to see that businesses, but also society
(01:17):
as a whole, can do when we're really
thinking about creating that real intersectional inclusion.
So grab a cup up, kick back and take a listen.
Hello and welcome to the podcast.
We are here today to talk to an absolutely incredible
woman that I have had the opportunity to work with
(01:38):
and collaborate with on various different projects before.
Grace Cooper.
Grace is here to talk to us today
about some of her experiences throughout her career
and some of those intersectional experiences.
Being a black woman and somebody that also has adhd
and what that's been like in the corporate field, working
in employment, but also as an entrepreneur as well.
(01:59):
So I'm not going to introduce Grace, I'm
going to get Grace to introduce herself.
So welcome, Grace.
Hi, thanks for having me.
My name's Grace Cooper.
I would say I am a creative.
I'm currently working as a host for great co
working space in London in Brixton called Impact Brixton.
(02:20):
And when I'm not doing that, I am a virtual assistant.
And I've also set up my own
company for creatives called colourful Creatives.
And it's about getting young people from the
ages of 16 to 25 into the creative
fields who wouldn't normally have access to those
spaces, especially at such a young age.
(02:42):
It could be for work experience or internships.
It's about how I help them get into those spaces. Yeah.
So that's what I do. That's amazing.
And because of your experience throughout your career,
you're really well placed to do that.
And I think also, you know, you're talking
about impact Brixton there and being one of
the hosts here and that's how we met.
(03:05):
And obviously we've been working in impact Brixton
for about three years now, I think.
Yeah, so we're part of the family for
sure and we definitely feel that way.
But I think all of that experience that you have
brought in, it just is such a wonderful thing for
you to now be able to give that back.
That's what I want.
(03:25):
That's what I want to do.
Because I've seen, believe it or not, I am
a lot older than people perceive me to be.
So when they see me, they can't wrap their
mind around whether all the jobs that I've been
in, what I've seen throughout my lives, they're quite
surprised by how much experience I have.
So, yes, it's one of the reasons why
(03:46):
I thought, actually I want to help younger
people navigate the working system because I didn't
have that help when I was younger either.
And I think it's really important for them to have
that sort of support when going into the working field.
So, yeah, want to give back, want
to help out, always have done. I love that.
And I think, yeah, like you say, you definitely.
(04:08):
I think because it's your energy, you've got such a
vibe about you, like, it's just such a beautiful.
You just give people lots of energy when they meet you.
They probably think, oh, she's probably in her twenties, new
rivers have been in her twenties for a while.
You definitely have a lot more energy than me and
(04:28):
my company is called Zing because it's got energy.
You put us to shame.
But no, I think that's really beautiful as well.
And I think that giving back from your own experience
and being able to, that is so, so important.
And I think that is just the
ethos of impact Brixton as well.
That's why so many amazing organisations
(04:51):
work in this fantastic space.
Yeah, absolutely.
I didn't realise that until a few
years ago that that's what we do.
We all want to learn from our experiences
and help the next generation or even just
your, your peers along the way.
We just want support.
Everybody just wants support.
And it's always helpful to have somebody
who has navigated those fields really well.
(05:14):
Definitely in impact Brixton, there's a lot
of those people, so it's great to
have that sort of support around us. I love that.
And you're so right.
Like, I think I definitely struggled in different ways.
We obviously have very different intersecting
identities in lots of different dimensions.
Yeah, but there were some things that I struggled to get
to in my career because I didn't know where to look
(05:36):
and I didn't really have a mentor and a coach until
I was much, much later in my career.
And that was really tough.
And I know there's a lot of
people that have worked really hard.
Like, we have to get to a good point
in our career, especially a lot of women as
well, where they're like, well, I've worked this hard,
you know, why should you have it easy?
But actually, why not create an easier
(05:56):
space for people to come come through?
You know, I've obviously got some
privileges that you don't have.
You will have something that I don't have
as well with regards to privileges, and I
think it's about creating that space for people
that have very underrepresented areas of different aspects.
So creative.
We know there's massive under representation, loads of
different identities in the creative field, so I
(06:18):
love that you're doing that and there's a
couple of other really great organisations around here
that are doing that well.
So that's lovely to be around.
I'm really interested to hear a little bit about your
experience then, because you are a black woman and you
are a black woman that also has ADHD.
So I'm really interested to hear
how that has been for you.
(06:39):
I guess maybe how it's evolved
from when you were in the.
I'm going to use the term corporate.
I know it wasn't super corporate, but I guess,
employment field when you were an employee to how
your experiences evolved now that you're an entrepreneur.
Yeah, I was only recently diagnosed.
I think it was the beginning of last year.
(06:59):
Only because, you know, you're watching videos, you're
hearing people talking about the same things, and
this was languages that you hadn't heard before,
but you could resonate with tremendously.
And it did make me start thinking back
to those times at work where I was
either deemed difficult or, yeah, Moody.
(07:21):
I was thinking back on one of my first roles and
it's now that I look back I realise, oh, I wasn't
moody, I was hyper focused and that person just kept on
interrupting me and I could never get back to work.
And that was so early on
working for a photographer's agency.
And although I left, I think a few years
(07:44):
later, I wish I had stayed with that because
I feel as though once I had figured those
things out, I would have excelled at that role.
As a result.
I've noticed that in my roles, I've only ever
been in those jobs for about three years and
then I leave because it either becomes overwhelming or.
(08:06):
And it's only overwhelming, I've realised, is when
I've put my all into that job.
So as somebody with ADHD, I didn't realise that.
They say it's like a people pleasing thing that
we do where we just want to make people
happy and we want to do the most.
It takes it out of you in
(08:28):
those years that you're doing that.
And then I think coming to the end, you're realising
that, not that nobody appreciates you, you seem to think
that no one's appreciating the work that you're doing.
But I just realised it's just one of
those symptoms of having ADHD, it's the things
that you've got to deal with.
I think in those corporate situations, I feel
like I was just giving way too much
(08:48):
of myself and not getting anything in return.
And as a result, it just results in you
just moving from job to job to job.
And that in itself can be extremely tiring.
And it got to a point now where I realised I
can't keep going back into the corporate world and coming back
out and going back in again because it's not sustainable.
(09:08):
I'm feeling burnout all the time from how
much energy I'm putting into all of it.
So it's been difficult to navigate, but it's also been
a huge eye opener to realise these were the issues
that you were having and it's not anything to do
with you, it's just that you didn't know how to
deal with it in those circumstances.
That makes sense.
Yeah, completely.
(09:29):
And I think that there's something really
interesting about that that you said, if
I'd have known, I would have stayed.
So this was a job that you really liked?
Oh, my gosh.
This was one of my favourite, like,
when I think back at it.
So photography agencies, I was working
with high profile magazine editors and
the most famous photographers out there,
(09:52):
beauty photographers, fashion photographers, stylists.
It was my dream job. I'm a creative.
I loved working in that space.
I loved seeing what these people created and them
having an opinion on how I set up their
portfolios for every job that they went. Went for.
However, because it moved really fast, I had to
(10:16):
keep an eye on so many moving like pieces
that if I got sidetracked, I'd lose it.
And this was years ago, so I was trying to think.
People are like thinking, oh, you could have just
used that app or that we didn't have those
apps back then, it was literally write this stuff
down and hope for the best, basically. Yeah.
(10:37):
Because there's always something happening and
they always needed something from me.
It was very hard for me to keep remembering.
And that's another thing I always said when I was
younger, for many years, I've always had a problem with
my short term memory and people didn't believe me.
They just thought it was just okay.
Yeah, some people have great long term memory and
(10:58):
some people don't have great short term memories.
No, my short term memories, absolutely terrible.
And in a world where you need to know what's happening
all the time, it just wasn't working out in that role.
So, yeah, one of my favourite jobs.
Wish I had stayed, but I think there were things
(11:18):
that probably would have helped me along the way had
I known I had adhd, because then people have been
like, oh, maybe you should try doing things this way.
Maybe you should try setting up this procedure
or try doing it a different way.
There was no suggestions.
It was either do it their way or no way, basically.
So it didn't work out very well for
(11:40):
me because I couldn't navigate how they worked.
It was very.
Yeah, it let me down. It.
Yeah, it upset me for many years. It upset me.
Yeah, no, I can hear that now.
I can hear that in your voice that actually this
is a job that you really didn't want to leave.
Yeah, I've definitely had that before where I've had
(12:02):
a job that I've absolutely loved and I didn't
want to leave, but circumstances have made me have
to leave and I'm the same as you.
Like, I don't have any form of neurodiversity, I guess.
I guess we're all neurodivergent
because we're all different.
But I don't have anything specific, but I
definitely connect with that idea that it's really
(12:25):
hard to focus for a lot of people.
And when you do finally focus, if someone breaks that
focus, it's really hard to get back into that and
therefore you feel like you're failing at your job.
You might even have, you might even be really
unlucky and have a boss that says that you're
failing at that job because they don't see what's
actually really happening, then they don't know how to
(12:47):
support you to do your best work.
And I think, like you say, it's definitely much
better now because people talk about it much more.
Women are getting diagnosed a lot more now.
That was never really a thing.
And I'm interested to hear your thoughts
on this as well because, you know,
your experience is very intersectional.
So you working in this job that you loved, and
(13:07):
you going through jobs like you say, relative quick turnover
because of the fact that you probably were too smart
for some of the jobs as well, and you probably
got bored at points because it wasn't stimulating enough, but
then you might be overstimulated.
So it's just a really hard balance.
And if you don't know at that point that you
have ADHD, it's really hard for you to even know
(13:29):
how to support yourself and how to find ways of
working and set up your workspace in a certain way
and your hours in a certain way, hence why running
your own business is normally the best idea.
Yeah, but I'm interested to hear your experience
because obviously you are somebody that has ADHD.
Every single person will have a different experience, of course,
(13:50):
but if you are a man that has ADHD, the
chances are you have been diagnosed much younger, probably when
you were a boy, because the symptoms are much more
aware of what the obvious symptoms are.
And I use obvious with air quotes when
they're little boys, whereas with little girls.
And you've got people pleaser
thing that you said earlier.
I wonder if there's an element
(14:11):
of that that gets missed.
So you've got that element.
So you're a woman with ADHD, which means the chances
of you getting diagnosed, as you were probably having to
push your doctor to do this to get the referral,
then you obviously also are a black woman.
And we also know, especially within healthcare,
(14:31):
how difficult that can be to be
taken seriously for all sorts of things.
There's lots of studies and research about this stuff.
This isn't something that we're just making up.
But I'm interested to hear from your opinion.
Do you think you might have had a different career trajectory
if you were not a black woman that has ADHD?
If you were, say, a white man or
(14:52):
a white woman or something like that? Oh, my God.
Yes, without a doubt.
Straight away I can see.
Although in saying that, I know I have
a very lively and personality and quite engaging
personality, and I know that's like the first
thing everybody obviously latches onto.
(15:14):
But then when you realise you can't
do that all the time, I need.
I need to break away from people all the time.
All the time.
So I'll be happy and energetic, like one
day, and then the next day I probably
just won't have that energy for you.
And that's when the moodiness, quote unquote,
(15:36):
comes in to it, because they feel
as though there's something wrong with you.
Like you've switched as.
Yeah, and as especially as a black woman as well.
You're deemed.
You know, they say it. They say.
I say they.
It has been said about young, about
(15:56):
black women being difficult or moody or.
Yeah, the terms that they've used
to describe the person, it has.
I've oftentimes tried to not be that way or not be
seen that way, and as a result, you push yourself too
(16:18):
far, which then results in the burnout or the.
And I use these terms because we know them now, but
back then, it was literally like, what is wrong with me?
I'm tired. I don't want to do anything.
I want to stay at home.
I don't want to talk to anybody.
We didn't know what those words are.
I know we use it quite fluently now, but it literally
(16:39):
is the only terminology that best describes how you feel when
you're just doing too much to satisfy the needs of other
people and to try and also hide how you're feeling and
how you're coping with everything as well.
I didn't realise I did that until
my cousin spoke to me about it.
(17:00):
She just noticed the difference how I was
at work and home, and she just.
It's not that I put on a show, it's just that
I give everybody everything in that moment, and then when I'm
at home or with family or anything, I oftentimes retreat because
I've just given way too much energy to the outside world
(17:24):
and, yeah, putting on a show, trying not to be deemed
as the difficult black woman at work as well. Yeah.
Trying to do things the way
everybody else wants them done.
When you know better or you think it should be,
you want to try it in a different way.
It's exhausting.
(17:44):
And I don't even think I do
like those top notch, like, jobs.
I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a doctor, I've not.
I don't have to navigate those pathways, but in the
little world that I live in, in the jobs that
I do, even that has tired me out.
And, yeah, we're tired of it.
And, yeah, I do believe that life
(18:06):
probably would have been a bit.
A lot different if I was like
a white male navigating the working world.
Yeah, no one would have called that man Moody if he
was, you know, he's just different from one day to next.
They'd say he was concentrating on something.
Cause he's busy with work or he's got
a lot on his mind at the moment.
(18:28):
Not that, maybe, yeah, this person just needs
to take some time out and needs to
concentrate on this work at this moment.
But especially as women, we feel that we have
to be available to everybody at all the time.
And that in itself is just exhausting.
Very exhausting.
(18:49):
Yeah, it's really interesting because when you were talking
then, all of the words I was thinking and
writing down, you were literally about to say them.
So when you were talking about the stereotypes that
are attached to women, and especially to black women,
the word difficult came up because you're told as
(19:10):
a woman, to just, you know, be there in
the background, make sure you don't make any noise,
just, you know, sit there quietly, etcetera.
And of course, listen, I'm generalising.
This is a really old, traditional thing that was said,
but it's a still very much a hangover that a
lot of us have had to really fight against.
But especially as a black woman, you don't
want to be seen as aggressive or difficult
(19:32):
or any of those stereotypical, ridiculous words that
are attached to black women in general.
And then you were really interesting because you were talking
about masking, because you were talking about, I need to
make sure that I don't come across as moody or
difficult when I know that's not what I'm doing, but
I'm having to mask that part of me because that
(19:55):
is how people are going to see it.
So that's your ADHD connecting really closely to the fact
that you're a woman and also you're a black woman.
So I think that it's.
It's just so interesting, all of those different things.
And like you said, that is exhausting.
And that is what leads to burnout.
It's not overwork, although I guess overwork comes from
that concept of being available all the time and
(20:16):
trying to do the best job and having to
double cheque everything you're doing, because you need to
make sure the way you're coming across to people
isn't going to make them uncomfortable.
That's what you're constantly thinking about.
Oh, my goodness. It's a lot.
Yeah, I've had a lot of.
(20:36):
There's a lot of times where I've argued with
myself whilst talking to somebody about something and I'm
making sure that I'm not making them feel uncomfortable.
I don't know, when I said that to somebody
one day, they were like, that's what you're thinking.
When you're talking to someone, I was like,
yeah, and that's why I'm not concentrating on
what you're talking to me about, because I'm
so hung up about making you feel comfortable
(20:59):
and that's where the exhaustion comes from.
Because we're constantly aware of what and
how we are that we don't.
Yeah, if it was just normal with our friends, it'd
be fine, but we don't want to alienate anybody.
Always thinking about other people.
It's tiring. Oh, my goodness.
It's like a massive responsibility to take
(21:21):
on as one person, to try to
navigate every single other person we're interacting
with, what's going on with them internally. Right.
That's sending your head into a spin.
That's on top of the fact
that you're doing work, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Completing tasks and projects and all of these things.
Stakeholder engagement. Right.
(21:42):
That's pretty typical in any work
kind of relationship, any career.
But if you're having to put that many
layers on top of it just to be
able to function, that is really exhausting.
So the fact that you are as successful as
you are and you've been able to have all
of these wonderful career experiences is phenomenal.
With all of those layers that you've also had to put
(22:03):
on, that's like three times more work than the average Joe
needs to do to be able to do a good job. And it's fine.
What I've realised is it's fine when you're
like, in your twenties and then you get
to your thirties and you're like, okay, so
it's getting a little bit too tired now.
And I'm now getting to my forties.
And this is where I've realised why young
(22:27):
women or women in their forties are being
diagnosed now is because we're literally tired.
We cannot go any further.
Yeah, it's literally, we're at a point
now where we don't know where.
What to do, where to go, how to.
How to handle it because we've been doing.
It was so easy in our twenties.
In our thirties, it was just, okay, maybe
I can do this for a bit longer.
And in our forties, like, we're done. We can't.
(22:48):
We can't do this anymore.
And I feel like that's also why a lot of it's.
I think there was a study on young black women
in their forties are breaking out of the corporate world
and setting up business, their own businesses, because they can't
deal with what they have to deal with.
In those corporate spaces and they know that they're
(23:10):
not going to go any further than whatever level
they reach, so they might as well break out
and start their own, their own businesses.
Whether that's attached to ADHD as well, I'm not sure,
but it's very much apparent with young black women.
Or can we still call ourselves young when we're in our.
Yeah, we can call it, yeah, it's happening
(23:34):
more with young black women and I guess,
yeah, if more women are now being diagnosed,
you'll probably see that a certain percentage of
those PMN are probably neurodivergent as well.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that there's some.
The diagnosis for a lot of people I speak to,
whether it's autism, ADHD, dyslexia, anything at all, the change
(23:54):
that that does in the person's head in the.
They like, oh, that's why this.
And, oh, that's why that.
And it just makes it so much
easier to manoeuvre through day to day
life because you've got something that connects.
You're not, like you say, being moody or difficult.
You're actually having a brain function that
is different to the majority of people.
(24:16):
And therefore the way that the majority of processes and
systems and stuff are set up, especially in the working
world, of course it's not going to work for you.
So that's why you've had to use all of
that energy and work twice or three times as
hard to get to a good result.
And like you say, you know, I mean,
I know you're a massive perfectionist anyway, so
that added onto it to it as well.
(24:37):
Yeah, that's it.
And it's just a huge, it's just a lot of pressure
for one single person to have on them from society, from
the communities, from the career spaces that they've got.
So it's huge.
It's really huge.
It's, it's a massive undertake, I would say.
It's a massive undertake.
I was trying to think something happened the other
(24:57):
day and someone messaged me and said, every time
I ask if you're okay, you seem to think
that I might be upset with you.
And my response was not anything aggressive, it
was one of, oh, no, I'm fine.
I mean, I'm okay.
(25:17):
Do you need something from me?
Is there something I can do?
Like I'm overcompensating now.
It's like, no, I'm literally just asking
if you're okay, if you're a.
You're actually all right.
And I'm constantly thinking, have
I done something wrong?
Is there a reason why they're asking me that I'm okay?
And as a result, again, overcompensating for
that in that moment with them.
(25:40):
And I sat down for a while and read the
message and I thought this is what I do and
I think it's one of those ADHD traits.
So I just explained to him,
I've always, always been like this.
I don't think it's only now that I've
realised this is, well, people obviously let me
know that that's how I respond to things.
(26:01):
I always think I'm in trouble all the
time because I'm a people pleaser as well,
so I don't want to upset them.
So I explained to him this is how I am.
Please don't take it any other way, whether it's I'm
a people pleaser since I was a child or whether
(26:22):
I just, I'm always just thinking I'm in trouble regardless.
Something I recently read is one of the thoughts.
A lot of people who are divergent always think.
They always think that they're in
trouble or they've done something incorrect.
It's just something that I've had to deal with since
I was a child and please don't take it seriously.
(26:44):
It's just a part of me.
I'm absolutely fine.
I did say there are other ways that
we could probably have those conversations that instead
of asking me if I'm okay, maybe ask.
Maybe say, if you need anything, I'm here, or.
Which allows me to come to them to ask
(27:06):
for anything and it makes it feel like it's
a safe space to now ask them for anything.
And they were like, okay, will
definitely do that moving forward.
I was like, that made me feel a lot better.
Whereas before asking was always, yeah, it made
me feel as I've always done something wrong
or they're, they're not actually asking me what's
wrong, then they're probably asking me what's wrong
(27:26):
because I've done something wrong. Does that make sense?
I don't know.
Like they know something and then they're gonna
tell me afterwards what I've done wrong.
And that's how I've literally walked
through my life, my entire life.
But yeah, that's how I've often felt and that was just
an example that popped into my head because I was happy
with the way that I spoke about it and was able
(27:48):
to realise what it was that I was doing. Amazing.
No, I think that that's really interesting and
I think that there's just so much to
unpack in the experiences that everyone has.
And of course everybody's experience
is going to be different.
Of course it is.
But I do think that the kind of background messages
that we get from our families and school, you know,
(28:11):
especially people that have neurodiversity, the school experience is quite
fundamental in the way that they then feel about themselves
when they go into the working world.
Obviously, schools are much better now because they
understand things a lot more, but there's still
a lot of challenges around that.
So I'm really interested to hear
your thoughts on any misconceptions.
So do you think that there's any really big
(28:33):
misconceptions that you have experienced as you've learned more
about your ADHD, as you've got your diagnosis?
What some of the.
Maybe the silliest things people have said to you.
I was talking to somebody the other day about this
and we went on a huge rant about it.
And because I say I've got ADHD, maybe
(28:55):
I should say adD, not ADHD, because they're
so hung up about hyperactivity part.
And that's how young girls have been overlooked,
because we don't display hyperactive manners, mannerisms.
We're not jumping off the walls, we're not
sitting here and not being able to.
(29:18):
We're not fidgeting.
Well, we are fidgeting, actually, but
we're not wanting to get up.
We're fidgeting in a different way. We'll find ways.
We'll doodle, will probably be clicking our
nails or something, or stimming like something.
I didn't realise.
Me and another friend who I found out
through another friend has ADHD, she used to
bounce her leg a lot and I never. We just.
(29:39):
We found it funny.
I was a doodler.
So all my notebooks have doodles in them.
When you look at my school books and
everything, there's just doodles everywhere and something.
I was talking to someone that was like, so many
people are hung up on the hyperactivity part of it.
It's not that we're hyperactive, it's more
(30:00):
the deficit part, which is more important.
So the reason why we can't concentrate on
one thing is because we're concentrating on everything.
It's not that.
It's the one thing I know.
I can hear the humming of the sound in the background.
I can hear the girl talking
or sniffing, and behind me it's.
(30:20):
I can notice the bird constantly flying by the window.
Our attention's everywhere.
We're just trying to pick it all up.
And if there isn't one thing that we're totally
and utterly engrossed in at that time, that's the
only way that we're going to concentrate.
And that's more the hyper focused part of the ADHD.
(30:40):
So it's not that it's an
attention deficit, it's an attention.
What's the opposite of deficit?
It's an abundance.
It's an abundance, yeah, because I'll
be like, can you hear. Can you hear that?
Do you know what that noise is?
Or I'll be listening to
another conversation that's happening.
But our attention's everywhere, so it's not that
we have an attention deficit, it's just that
(31:01):
we're just not concentrating on that one thing.
I spoke to my sister the other day
and she moved and navigated through her home
so well and got so much things done. Done. I said to.
I asked her, how did she do that?
She was like, what do you mean?
I was like, aren't you thinking about all the many different
things that you have to do in order to get there?
She's like, no, I just got up
(31:23):
and decided to go to the gym.
And then I came home and decided to make bread.
And while I was making bread, I did a wash.
And when I did that wash, I.
And I was like, but weren't you thinking, these are
all the things I have to do today, and that's
what stops you from doing the things, because you're constantly
thinking about all the little things that you have to
(31:43):
do and that's what ties you out.
It's just like, no, I just get on with it.
I was like, that's the difference.
That is definitely a difference.
But in order, like, the misconceptions, I think as well,
when people see us, we seem as though we've got
everything under control until we realise we don't.
Because we're creators.
(32:04):
Because most of the time we can be quite creative.
They think that we have a lot of ideas.
It's not that we have a lot
of ideas, we just have different ideas. To yours.
We think slightly differently to how you guys think.
Like, I'll think one thing and I'll notice that seven
people in that group will think the same way.
And that's when I start thinking,
is there something wrong with me?
(32:24):
Am I the one who is wrong?
Because I'm thinking slightly differently.
And it's been at times where I've realised, especially
when at work, everyone will agree on this one
thing and I'm like, that's like nine people, and
I just don't think that way.
There's no way I'm going to think this way, there's no
way I'm going to come up with ideas that way.
(32:44):
And it's only like later down the line when I
feel confident enough to tell them about my ideas.
I've obviously been scared before because everybody thinks that
one way and I've realised I'm thinking a totally
different way when it comes to ideas about things.
And, yeah, it's only when you get a little bit
more confident you realise, maybe I should talk about this.
And when you do, it's very much celebrated and
(33:08):
embraced, but because you're seeing that everybody else is
thinking the same way, you kind of think maybe
the way that you're thinking is wrong, so you
don't share that information right at all.
So that can be a detriment to
yourself if you're not the way.
But that's because I also know that growing
(33:29):
up, I didn't feel as though I was
able to share the different way that.
I think it was just easier to go with the crowd.
I have noticed now, especially with younger
people, they're more confident in sharing that,
but that's because they've been allowed to.
(33:50):
They've been put in spaces where
they're allowed to do that.
But I think growing up, especially in the corporate
world, it's much easier to just go with the.
What's the word?
Go with the majority and keep your weird way
of thinking to yourself because it won't be accepted.
Yeah.
(34:10):
And do you know what, the way you're talking there
is just like some of the words you just used.
So you said, what's.
What's wrong with me?
Is there something wrong with me?
Because I think differently to the
other nine people in the room.
You know, you just said the word weird there and
they're all words that, no doubt at school, maybe early
on in your career, those words would have been attached
(34:31):
to you verbally by teachers or by other pupils, and
then by people at work and.
Or they might have even just inferred it.
So I think that there's something really interesting in
that, because, of course, you're carrying that inside.
You're already having to mask who you are in so
many different ways to make sure that you're being accepted
into that, fold into that norm in the corporate world,
(34:53):
and then you're trying not to rock the boat.
Also, again, to not be a difficult black woman, to
not be moody and all of those things it's just.
It's a lot for one brain to take on
top of trying to actually do the bloody job.
It is a lot, and I'm starting to get
a sense of it because I'm really fortunate.
(35:14):
I've got a lot of people around me that have
ADHD and I think it is a creative thing.
I have a lot of friends that are creative
and those sorts of things, and I've definitely noticed
a lot of similarities in what you've said there
and their experiences with work as well.
I'm really interested to hear about the career spaces that
you've been in and do you think that there's a
(35:36):
way, you know, if not everybody can go out and
set up their own organisation, if people are working in,
in their own employment and those sorts of things.
Is there a way that these spaces,
these employers, these managers, whatever, can better
support individuals that have ADHD or a
variety of intersecting identities attached to that?
(35:58):
There are things.
I know there's been a lot of people who have
spoken to their workplaces about coming out as neurodivergent.
I actually really like that term.
Just coined a new word.
Yay, neurodivergent.
(36:19):
But I know there's a lot of workplaces
who are saying that they're neurodivergent friendly, but
I don't think they actually understand what that
entails because it's different for different people.
I'll give you an example.
And it's only been coming out more and more.
So I knew my whole life I've been a night owl.
(36:41):
I hate waking up in the morning.
I absolutely hate it.
My natural body clock, I wake up at nine.
And also I don't like crowds.
I really hate being in crowds
and I hated morning commutes.
And so I would always try and wait for the last
(37:02):
train to get into work because I knew it'd be the
emptiest, but it meant that I was always late.
So eventually my boss noticed it and then she
said, listen, you're great at what you do, however,
you come in late all the time.
And I explained to her what the problem was
and she said, okay, do you want to see
(37:22):
if you can start at 930 instead?
And I went, yeah, that would be great.
And from then on, I was always coming in
ten minutes early because I caught the right train.
I wasn't anxious from being on the train with so
many people and it resulted in me getting in early.
So this is before being diagnosed as neurodivergent,
(37:44):
because I feel like all my issues, quote,
unquote were brought to the surface when I
was working in that work, in that space.
But I realised her seeing that something wasn't working for
me and then just talking about it resulted in a
much better working dynamic because we realised this isn't working,
(38:08):
so we should try something else now.
If you're neurodivergent and you know these things, at
least that's something that you can go to your
bosses with and explain to them, listen, maybe it's
something like, I actually need headphones to work.
It'd be really great if I could have headphones.
I've worn headphones my entire life, in all
my jobs and all my bosses have hated
(38:29):
it and I never understood why, but I
worked fantastically with headphones or music on.
And if it was just something that, again, workspaces
could provide for people just listening, I think, yeah,
as I said, they can't do anything.
They need to listen to the individual person and just
ask them what it is that they would need need
(38:49):
in order to make this a successful working environment.
I think that's all they need to do and
be open to these suggestions because they'll probably see
that person's workflow just improve massively because they've put
these steps or these things in place for them. Yeah.
There's not a one size fits all solution.
(39:10):
It's more about talking to that person and sharing that
within the company and seeing what you can do.
Some of it doesn't make any of the biggest difference.
Me coming in 20 minutes late, or technically
ten minutes late, it didn't mean anything really.
You just needed to move around a few meetings.
That's literally it.
And it meant I focused better because I
wasn't so stressed out about getting into work.
(39:31):
But it didn't make a difference to them,
but it made a huge difference to me.
So just doing things like that and speaking
to your employees, it's going to make the
biggest difference to all of them. Again. Yeah.
It's not a one size fits all solution.
Speak to an individual.
That's what they need.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you.
And there's a book I always recommend
(39:54):
to organisations that are trying to support
people with various different hidden disabilities.
And I know neurodiversity is
sometimes locked together with disability.
It's a big conversation. It's not one we're going to be
able to have right now, but the
book is called hidden Disabilities and conditions.
And the theme by. I think it's a.
An author called Ted Smith.
(40:15):
And the theme throughout the book is exactly what
you've just said, yeah, these are some experiences of
some people with chronic illnesses, with neurodiversity, with this,
this all the sort of things that aren't super
obvious when you meet somebody.
So actually, there's stories from
people that I really like.
(40:35):
It's very personal, but they give a load of
things, like you just did, then, you know, you
just give, like, three or four different examples of
things that employers can do, which is fantastic.
And like you say, some of them cost no money, some
of them make no changes, and they're actually really easy.
And it completely changes the performance of the
person, the enjoyment and the purpose of that
person doing that work as well, and that
connection and loyalty to the organisation.
(40:57):
Yeah, but actually, it's going to be
different for you to Bob over here.
And I think that's why I recommend
that book, because it's exactly that.
It highlights each chapter, highlights a
different condition and a different disability.
But what it does is it shows
that actually, this is a reminder.
Don't forget, these are some examples, but
it's not going to work for everyone.
(41:17):
Just talk to people, just learn, just get
to know what it is that they need.
And I think opening up that dialogue and having a
manager like you had is a really, really good way
of feeling like you've got some allyship in your workspace
rather than you all the work and all the change
to fit in with a really rigid structure of the
way a corporate world or a particular organisation is working.
(41:41):
So I love that you've shared those
and I think that's a really fantastic
way to wrap up our conversation today.
So I just want to say thank you so much. Thank you.
I know we have lots of really great conversations around
the office, but I just really wanted to get you
here talking about this because I just find it fascinating.
And I think there's lots of people listening to this
(42:02):
that don't understand the concept of intersectional experiences, but also
even just the concept of somebody that has ADHD, you
know, what can that experience be like?
And what are the really simple things we
can do as employers and as managers that
could make a world of difference?
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Thank you for highlighting this.
(42:24):
Thank you for highlighting this.
Thank you so, so much for
spending this time with me today.
I really, really enjoyed it and
can't wait to have another conversation.
Thanks for joining us. Absolutely. Thank you.
Bye bye.
What an amazing episode.
I just absolutely loved how open Grace was
(42:46):
there and really shared some really valuable insights
into her experiences, whether it's navigating the world
as a black woman with somebody that has
ADHD all those things collectively.
Now, of course, Grace shared some really powerful
stories, some really great practical advice, and of
course a really great fresh perspective on what
(43:06):
we can do to be better allies. And listen.
These are the small changes in our organisations that
we can do that can really support and all
of that understanding to make a bigger impact.
So if you you enjoyed this conversation, make sure
that you follow us on LinkedIn and also feel
free to share this podcast episode with other people.
Until next time, see you soon.
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