In this episode, host Kishma B. Francis dives into the topic of healthy gaming with special guest Dr. Alok Kanojia, a psychiatrist and founder of Healthy Gamer.
Dr. Kanojia, a recovering video game addict, shares his insights on how gaming can become an addiction and offers valuable advice on how parents and teachers can help children develop a balanced relationship with video games. He discusses the impact of gaming on individuals with ADHD and autism and highlights the importance of understanding the underlying reasons behind excessive gaming.
Throughout the conversation, Dr. Kanojia emphasizes the significance of communication between parents and children, the benefits of gaming, and how to foster self-regulation in kids. He also provides a glimpse into his book, "How to Raise a Healthy Gamer," which offers practical steps for parents to manage their child's gaming habits effectively.
Join us for an enlightening discussion on creating a healthy gaming environment and nurturing a positive relationship with technology.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
The views expressed on this program are not necessarily those of WTJX,
its board, staff, or underwriters.
Good day and welcome to Ability Radio. My name is Kishma B. Francis. I am one of your hosts.
Ability Radio is brought to you by the Disability Rights Center of the Virgin
(00:23):
Islands. We have two locations, one on St.
Thomas, USVI, and one on St. Croix.
Today, we're going to be talking about healthy gaming. And I have a special guest with me.
And guests, please introduce yourself before we begin our conversation.
Yeah, so my name is Alok Kanojia. I'm a psychiatrist by training and a recovering
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video game addict myself.
And I started an organization called Healthy Gamer, which is designed to help
people develop a healthy relationship with technology.
This is an important topic because it has been highly requested on our surveys from our parents.
We are a parent training information center, and we try to provide as much information as possible.
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So, Dr. K, do you mind if I call you Dr. K? Not at all. What is healthy gaming?
Yeah, it's a great question. So I think, you know, if we think about games,
games can be used as a source of recreation.
They're supposed to be something that we do for fun. The problem that we're
seeing today is that gaming is so engrossing and so engaging that people start
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using it as a substitute for other things in their life.
So, for example, video games are very good at making us feel like we're progressing.
It gives us trophies. We can always level up a little bit more.
There's more time to spend in the game. And some people will start to have trouble in real life.
So they won't be focusing on school. They won't be focusing on their job.
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They won't be focusing on their relationships, whether they be friendships,
family relationships. And instead, they just spend all of their time in the game.
So healthy gaming is when all of what we're supposed to be doing in life is actually being done.
And then gaming is something that we use for fun after we fulfill all of our
responsibilities. Oh, nice.
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It sounds like unhealthy gaming is like a vicious cycle. Am I correct?
Absolutely. That's something that I struggled with a lot. So one of the things
that we know is that gaming is very good at suppressing the negative emotional circuits in our brain.
So if I'm feeling sad, if I'm feeling depressed, in my case,
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what was happening is I was very, very ashamed that I was falling behind.
And the more ashamed I felt that I wasn't studying, I wasn't getting good grades,
the only thing that could make me feel better was playing video games.
So I would play games for 16 to 20 hours a day to suppress my negative emotions.
And then as I played more games, I would fall further behind,
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which would then increase my shame and increase my need to play video games.
So it is absolutely a vicious cycle. Wow.
Wow. I'm just thinking about my days of playing video game.
I don't think I've ever done 16 hours of video game. I'm a Gen Xer. Sorry.
Yeah, no, that's fine. I mean, that's what separates us addicts from the rest
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of the folks. And, you know, we had Nintendo, Atari, and the game systems, they got too hot.
So you had to get off and go out in the road to play. Okay.
So I just want to talk to you a little bit more because I've seen with my nephews
and my great nephews that they can stay glued to the game for so long.
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What can parents and teachers do to help with this addiction?
Let's just call it an addiction.
Yeah, so I think it's a great, great, great question. So I think the most important
thing for parents to do is sounds a little bit surprising, but it's actually talk to your kid.
So the biggest problem that parents run into is that when you see your nephew
or grand nephew or son spending too much time on the game, the parental instinct
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is to take the game away and get them to stop playing, right?
Because it's clearly not healthy.
This is a very natural parental instinct. The problem is that when you give
into that instinct, you are now fighting against your child.
And one thing that I've learned practicing addiction psychiatry is that you
can never be sober for someone else.
(04:25):
The person who wants to be developed a healthy relationship,
the one who is using the substance, whether it's alcohol or gaming,
has to want to reduce their gaming themselves.
So what we strongly recommend to a lot of parents is talk to your child about
why do you want to play this game?
What is it that the game does for you? What is it that makes life hard for you to live?
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And as parents start to understand what is going on in their child,
two very important things will happen.
The first thing that happens is that you and your child are now on the same page.
Instead of fighting against your child, you understand what their challenges are.
And then the second thing is that once you understand what the challenges
are, you can start to cooperate to fix those things.
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And so, this is something that we really lay out step by step in how to raise a healthy gamer.
But like, you know, a really good example is a lot of times kids will play a
lot of video games because they're bullied at school, because they don't know
how to make friends, because they feel socially awkward.
And so once as a parent, you understand this is what's driving the gaming behavior,
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you can start to work on those problems so that the child needs the video game less.
Oh, I love it. And you said a quote that I love. You can't be sober for someone else.
Yeah, right. And that's the challenge. I love it.
So I'm thinking about individuals that are diagnosed with ADHD.
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How does that relate to individuals that are addicted to video game or gaming?
ADHD is such a vulnerability for a video game addiction. So,
you know, we see this a lot. I would say maybe...
You know, there are about five or six million people in our healthy gaming community.
And I want to say like maybe 20% or 30% of them have ADHD is what my gut check is.
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So, if you think about ADHD, it's a mind that has difficulty focusing.
And if you really think about when the happiest times in your life are,
it's usually when you're focusing.
So even if you think about something like your wedding day, on your wedding
day, you're thinking about getting married. Like that's what makes it so enjoyable.
If we think about, let's say, getting lost in a good book or walking along the
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beach and looking at the sunset, when you're walking along the beach and looking
at a sunset, your mind is fully focused in the moment.
It feels really good as a human being to be like very into something and have your mind be focused.
Now, the challenge with kids with ADHD is if you look at things like school,
school is not designed for children with ADHD.
So, their mind wanders a lot. They don't do as well.
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They get in trouble. and then as an alternative they
have something like a video game and the video game is full
of flashing colors it's full of loud sounds it's
full of little trophies that you get that keep you
engaged because people with ADHD don't have trouble focusing on a video game
and that's how they're designed, so what that results in is a child kind of has
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two options either I can do very poorly in the real world be incredibly distracted
get in trouble at school or i can focus on this video
game, which makes focusing really easy, is enjoyable,
gives my brain a spurt of dopamine.
And so, it's really a real problem that ADHD is a vulnerability for all of the
things that video games do.
(07:47):
Wow. You said a mouthful.
Yeah. I love it. I love it because another parent, we were having a conversation
and a parent asked about how ADHD would relate to depression in children.
And I think when you just talked about how focusing and they have the game in
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and they're allowed to focus, can you expand on that a little bit more with the depression?
Absolutely. So, this is another really fascinating research.
So, if you look at people who have ADHD and depression, what you find is 3% of
people with depression will grow up to have ADHD.
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3%. 70% of people with ADHD will grow up to have depression.
So, this is what something that we're really discovering, which is that growing
up with ADHD is a severe risk factor for depression.
So, what tends to happen is imagine you're like an eight-year-old kid and you're
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in school and you know that your job in school is to study, is to pay attention,
but your brain isn't capable of that.
And kids are very good at estimating intelligence. So, you know that you're as
smart as your friends, but for some reason, your grades are not as good and
you don't really understand why that is.
Everyone tells you to try to focus better, apply yourself more.
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I kind of got this. I'm probably on the ADHD spectrum. And my teachers always
told me, oh, he would do so much better if he has so much potential.
If he applied himself, he would do so much better.
So, what happens when you grow up with ADHD is that you start to fail at a lot of things in life.
You have difficulty even in relationships.
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So, there are some studies that show that by the second grade,
a child with ADHD will get invited to zero birthday parties.
And the reason for that is that when you're on the playground,
you cut in line because you don't know how to wait for your turn.
You're very impulsive. So, kids actually don't like other children with ADHD.
So, there are social consequences, academic performance consequences.
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And then that comes with a lot of shame. People sort of start to feel like they're broken.
And as they grow up feeling they're broken, that's what leads to depression later in life. Oh, wow.
Wow. Oh, gosh. Okay.
Sounds bleak, doesn't it? Good news is that all this stuff can be fixed.
Okay, that's the silver lining. I just want the silver lining.
(10:20):
Yeah, no. So, I think it's really important to remember that,
you know, just because problems are severe.
We have to remember that good diagnosis precedes good treatment.
My experience as a psychiatrist has been that once you understand what a problem
is, it can seem really severe.
But once you understand what's wrong, then you can really go about fixing it.
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And for a lot of the people that I work with, a lot of the parents that I work
with, they struggle with gaming addiction because they are there.
You know, they struggle with their children's gaming addiction because they
don't understand why their children are playing. And once you get to that root
cause, then you can, it becomes so much easier to make a change.
So, education is important.
(11:02):
Critical. Okay. I love that. Education is important.
Is there anything else parents can do to us?
Absolutely. So, I think a big thing that parents can do is to be,
I know it sounds kind of weird, but sort of like nonjudgmental towards gaming.
So, spend time with your child, right?
So, if your child is playing a video game, sit down with them,
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watch them play the video game, ask them questions about the video game,
really try to understand what is it about this?
Like, how are you able to spend eight hours a day doing this? Help me understand.
And the cool thing is simply by becoming a part of their world,
you will sort of form an alliance.
And once your child understands that you understand gaming, they're much more likely to listen to you.
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And it's kind of weird, right? Because as parents, we tend to be pretty involved with our kids' lives.
When they're playing with other kids at the playground, we're kind of paying
attention to who they're playing with.
We know when they go over to someone's house for a play date,
we're the ones that arrange it. You know, their friends will come over to our
place and we're kind of watching.
OK, is this a good friend? Is this a bad friend? Is a good influence or bad influence?
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The really weird thing about gaming is it's the one part of your child's life
where as a parent, we're usually quite absent.
So that needs to be addressed. Wow. Wow.
Wow. So it's basically you're creating a new relationship, but around gaming.
Or you're strengthening the relationship, not creating a new relationship.
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Absolutely. So you don't want to give your child the impression that you're 100% anti-gaming.
What you really want to do is understand the gaming, understand why they want to play.
And then when you talk to them about setting limits, you'll be coming from a
much more informed perspective.
Okay. I love it. I love it. I love it because I've been noticing a lot of parents
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don't converse with their children as much as they should.
And I think this would be a really good conversation piece around the video game.
So question for you, we talk about healthy gaming.
Is it very any is gaming beneficial? There are some studies that show that gaming can be helpful.
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So two of my favorite studies, one is done by the United States Department of
Defense, looking at soldiers who play video games versus soldiers who don't.
And in 2015, the USDOD found that soldiers who play video games have a 20% higher
something called fluid IQ.
So this is a problem solving intelligence that actually gets boosted through playing video games.
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The second study is really fascinating, actually comes from surgeons.
And so surgeons who play video games are 20 percent or sorry,
have one third of the errors that surgeons who don't play video games make in
terms of like surgical expertise.
So it seems that, you know, there is some benefit to hand eye coordination.
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There is some benefit to problem solving capabilities. So there are some benefits to gaming. Nice.
So what about gaming benefits for individuals on the autism spectrum?
Yeah, so autism spectrum is
another great example of how two things can blend in a very unhealthy way.
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So we know that people on the autism spectrum are more likely to get addicted to video games.
We also know that people on the autism spectrum who play a lot of video games
will have worsening of their autism symptoms.
So people who play video games, especially massively multiplayer online RPGs,
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are more likely to have temper tantrums and meltdowns if they're on the autism spectrum.
So video games can actually like exacerbate some of the symptoms of autism.
The problem is that, once again, people on the autism spectrum have a choice
between regular life and the video game life.
And if we look at some of the deficits in autism, a very common deficit,
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for example, is like difficulty reading social cues, paying attention to facial
expressions, nonverbal communication.
These are all things that people with autism frequently struggle with.
And so the real world is full of people giving you nonverbal cues.
Is this person, do they cross their arms?
Are they smiling at me? Do they like me? Do they not like me?
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And that socialization can be very difficult for people on the autism spectrum.
Compare that to a video game where everyone is just texting to each other, right?
So you can read, there's no facial expressions involved. There's no body language involved.
The rules in the video game are very, very clear.
This is where you start. This is where you end. Whereas the real world is so nebulous. lists.
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So oftentimes people on the autism spectrum are very attracted to video games
because everything is super clear and super concrete. Very interesting.
How much gaming is too much gaming?
That's such a great question. And the one that's the question that I get the
most often from parents.
And so I'll bounce that back to you. So how much, let's say drinking is too much drinking, right?
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This is where I know it sounds kind of crazy, but we all get caught up in,
okay, is two hours a day too much? Is one hour a day too much?
I don't really think about it like that. I think about it in a different way.
It doesn't matter whether it's one hour, 10 hours, or 100 hours a week.
What matters is, are you doing everything that you're supposed to be doing in life?
So I've worked with people who will play video games for 40 or 50 hours a week,
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but they They are commercial real estate developers who are happily married.
So they're doing everything that they're supposed to be doing in life.
Their physical health is good. Their mental health is good.
Their relationships are good.
They just prefer to spend all of their free time playing video games.
That's actually totally fine. And I've met other people who will play video
games for 10 to 20 hours a week, but are doing so as a form of avoidance.
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And so that can be a problem. So I don't really focus on a particular hourly
amount. What I really think about is that the healthy amount of gaming is the
gaming that is done after all of your responsibilities are taken care of.
So how can I get how can parent get a child to be interested in something else besides gaming?
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That's a beautiful question. So the cool thing is that they are already interested
in things besides gaming.
We just need to uncover it. And I know that sounds kind of weird,
but let me give you an example.
So the way that video games work is that they activate certain parts of our
brain that have historically and evolutionarily been activated by real life things.
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I don't know if that kind of makes sense, but like, you know,
we all like having friends. We We all like forming bonds and forming connections.
So there's a part of our brain that is very social. Now what video games have
done is you can have friends online.
You can have an avatar online. You can dress up your avatar.
So all of these things like we like to dress in particular clothing,
fashion has been very important for human beings for thousands of years.
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So what video games basically do is create an artificial world that activates our brain.
But what we find when I work with these gamers and I work with parents and we
help them sort of get better.
What we sort of find is that if you figure out why they're playing the game,
you can actually find similar activities in the real world.
So I worked with one gamer who really liked being competitive.
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So they really like challenging themselves and winning in the video game.
That's why they get addicted to that particular game.
So then the only issue is let's find something that engages that competitive
spirit in the real world.
And with the right support, they sort of signed up for a martial arts class.
Their parents were really supportive. They sort of made that decision with their
parents instead of the parents making the decision for them.
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And then they started going to martial arts class for six hours a week.
And that's six hours that they're no longer gaming.
So I think oftentimes once we understand why they're gaming,
we can figure out what that need is and then find replacements in the real world. That's awesome.
So let's talk about your book, How to Raise a Healthy Gamer,
End Power Struggles, Break break bad screen habits, and transform your relationship with your kids.
(19:19):
Talk about it, Dr. K. Yeah, so, you know, this is a book.
It's interesting because I am a recovering gaming addict myself,
and I've worked with hundreds of gamers.
So my main area of expertise is actually working not with the parents, but with the kids.
And as we started growing incredibly rapidly, parents started reaching out to
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us and saying, hey, I have a kid who has a problem.
Can you help me? So, four years ago, we started helping parents.
We developed this program that has a couple of really important steps,
and we've done research studies on this.
We've presented our findings at places like the American Psychiatric Association on our programs.
So the data is really good. And so what we basically break it down into is that
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if you're having trouble with your child who's playing video games,
the first thing that we want you to do is understand as a parent.
So as a parent, you need to know what the game is doing to your child's brain.
What it's doing to their mind, how it's affecting them.
And once you're armed with that knowledge, we move on to step two,
which is really confusing for a lot of parents. But we recommend that you just
talk to your child for at least one month without setting any limits.
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So what we need to do as a parent, the most effective parenting is when we understand
our kids. So then we move to the understanding phase.
And then during that, you'll oftentimes build an alliance with your child because
now it's no longer you fighting against your child.
Then what y'all do is you pick some goal that your child cares about.
Like, hey, I don't have many friends at school.
And then y'all work together to solve their problem. So it's not like parents
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saying, hey, this is a problem.
This needs to be fixed. Your child is working with you. And then we sort of
go into a lot of detail around how to set boundaries and how to enforce boundaries.
A lot of scientific studies show that parents will make a lot of mistakes when
they think they're doing the right thing. So we sort of equip parents with that information.
And so it kind of it's a start to finish program that also includes a lot of
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things like sample dialogue.
So like, what should you say? How should you ask questions?
And these are all evidence based approaches. There have been tons of scientific
studies that show that this is effective.
And so our program involves understanding what's going on, building an alliance
with your kid, developing the right goals, and then setting and enforcing healthy boundaries.
And once we do those four things, and in that order, we tend to see complete
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turnarounds in so many children.
So how can parents find out more about your program?
Yeah, so they can find How to Raise a Healthy Gamer anywhere that books are
sold. The book is out now.
And, you know, it was it was like number one on certain lists and things like
that for addictions and psychology and things like that. So, you can find it
anywhere that books are sold.
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OK, and do you have a website? I know you do, but I just wanted to toot your horn.
They can also go to healthygamer.gg/parents.
So, we have a parent section of the website where they can find more resources.
And then we also have a YouTube channel where you can see me doing interviews
with parents as well as with kids who are addicted to video games.
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So, you can sort of hear, you know, real live conversations about these various
topics with the people involved.
And it's important when you see someone being interviewed, you know,
you can pick up little nuggets or you can say, well, OK, I can relate to that.
So, parents do check it out. check out the YouTube channel also do you have any
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recommendations for a parent who is struggling.
With their child and their child's game and addiction?
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think one pitfall that a lot of parents fall into is
that they see that their child is having a problem, and they want to fix it 100%.
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And so oftentimes what parents will do is instead of focusing on small progress
over a long period of time, you see your child struggling and you want to fix it right away.
So, battling an addiction is something that can sometimes be a lifelong process.
Thankfully, it's not that way most of the time. But we tend to find that a parent
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really needs to slow down.
So, we recommend, you know, it usually takes anywhere between three months on
the earliest side or two years on the later side to really conquer this problem. So slow down.
The other big mistake that a lot of parents make is they don't take care of themselves.
So, when you as a parent are exhausted, when you're frustrated.
You're not going to be bringing the right energy to your parent-child relationship.
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And as the parent gets more exhausted and frustrated, the child is going to
retreat into the video game themselves.
So, I know it sounds kind of weird, but like my best advice for parents is go
slower, do a little bit less and take care of yourself.
And you will see the changes in your child. It's not an overnight process.
It's not. It really isn't. Right. What we recommend is build, letting your
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child build their own habits, right?
Building healthy habits with your child so you don't have to constantly be policing them.
That's the big mistake that a lot of parents make is they try to do the work
for their kid instead of building the right habits with your child so
that they self-regulate.
Self-regulation. I love it.
So, explain a little bit more about self-regulate because I don't,
(24:25):
I think a lot of parents don't understand that concept.
Yeah. So, if we think about it this way, so let's say your kid is playing too
many video games and then you as a parent come home and you say no more video
games and then you institute some punishment to get them to stop.
Now, if we really think about this, what it requires for your child to stop
is you punishing them. They're not actually learning anything.
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They're not building a good habit. All they're learning is that when mom or
dad is around, then I can't play video games.
But the moment that they disappear, I'm free to play video games.
Your child is not being taught to be independent.
So instead, what we recommend, and this is why we have this slow approach,
is to have your children learn self-regulation.
(25:08):
So, I'll give you like a really simple example that I do with my kids.
I have a six-year-old and an eight-year-old. We play video games together.
I have a bunch of video game systems in my house, and this is what I do with them.
Saturday morning rolls around, and of course, what do they want to do?
They want to play a video game. They want to watch TV.
And I'll even say, okay, fine, we can do that.
So, we'll do that for half an hour, and I'll say, do you guys want to play more?
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Do you want to play less? They, of course, want to play more.
So at the one-hour mark, I'll then ask them, hey, how much fun are you having?
And if you're a parent who has children who play video games,
you know exactly what I'm talking about.
At the very beginning, they're having fun, but then an hour in,
two hours in, they're not even having fun.
They're getting angry, they're getting moody, they're getting cranky,
but they don't want to stop.
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So then what I'll do is I'll force them to stop at the one-hour mark,
and then we'll go outside, and we'll go to the playground.
And after 30 minutes at the playground, I will ask them, hey,
was it a good idea that we stopped?
Did you actually, do you, are you having fun now, now or do you wish you were
back at home playing a video game?
Do you want to go home now, or do you want to stay at the playground?
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And the kids will be like, no, we're not ready to go home yet.
So, there's a big aspect of sitting with your kids and inviting them to pay attention
and understand the impact of screens and video games on their mind.
We as parents don't usually do this, right? So we don't really like spend a
(26:33):
lot of time asking them to think about, are you having as much fun on hour two as hour one?
What we tend to do as parents is we say, that's enough. You're no longer having fun.
I'm going to take it away from you. But what we really want to do is develop
that capacity for self-regulation by encouraging our children to be more aware
of the impact of video games on their brain, on their body.
(26:57):
And once children start to learn these lessons themselves, they will start to self-regulate.
Dr. K, we have about one minute left.
I know that it can feel very, very overwhelming as a parent to deal with video
games. they have invaded every corner of our lives, as well as cell phones and
social media and things like that.
And so a lot of parents are hopeless. But the good news is that we see really good outcomes.
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If you really understand what the problem is and approach it in sort of an evidence-based
way, we see that a lot of parents will have a healthier relationship with their
children, and their children will really learn to self-regulate and be more
independent. So don't lose hope.
That's awesome. Thank you, Dr. K. And Ability Radio has been brought to you
by the Disability Rights Center of the Virgin Islands, St.
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Thomas, St. Croix, two locations.
You can find us on www.drcvi.org. Thank you once again, Dr. K. 417un 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:59,530 The views expressed on this program are not necessarily those of WTJX's board, staff, or underwriters.
Music.
The views expressed on this program are not necessarily those of WTJX,
its board, staff, or underwriters.
Good day and welcome to Ability Radio. My name is Kishma B. Francis. I am one of your hosts.
Ability Radio is brought to you by the Disability Rights Center of the Virgin
(00:23):
Islands. We have two locations, one on St.
Thomas, USVI, and one on St. Croix.
Today, we're going to be talking about healthy gaming. And I have a special guest with me.
And guests, please introduce yourself before we begin our conversation.
Yeah, so my name is Alok Kanojia. I'm a psychiatrist by training and a recovering
(00:46):
video game addict myself.
And I started an organization called Healthy Gamer, which is designed to help
people develop a healthy relationship with technology.
This is an important topic because it has been highly requested on our surveys from our parents.
We are a parent training information center, and we try to provide as much information as possible.
(01:10):
So, Dr. K, do you mind if I call you Dr. K? Not at all. What is healthy gaming?
Yeah, it's a great question. So I think, you know, if we think about games,
games can be used as a source of recreation.
They're supposed to be something that we do for fun. The problem that we're
seeing today is that gaming is so engrossing and so engaging that people start
(01:32):
using it as a substitute for other things in their life.
So, for example, video games are very good at making us feel like we're progressing.
It gives us trophies. We can always level up a little bit more.
There's more time to spend in the game. And some people will start to have trouble in real life.
So they won't be focusing on school. They won't be focusing on their job.
(01:55):
They won't be focusing on their relationships, whether they be friendships,
family relationships. And instead, they just spend all of their time in the game.
So healthy gaming is when all of what we're supposed to be doing in life is actually being done.
And then gaming is something that we use for fun after we fulfill all of our
responsibilities. Oh, nice.
(02:16):
It sounds like unhealthy gaming is like a vicious cycle. Am I correct?
Absolutely. That's something that I struggled with a lot. So one of the things
that we know is that gaming is very good at suppressing the negative emotional circuits in our brain.
So if I'm feeling sad, if I'm feeling depressed, in my case,
(02:36):
what was happening is I was very, very ashamed that I was falling behind.
And the more ashamed I felt that I wasn't studying, I wasn't getting good grades,
the only thing that could make me feel better was playing video games.
So I would play games for 16 to 20 hours a day to suppress my negative emotions.
And then as I played more games, I would fall further behind,
(02:58):
which would then increase my shame and increase my need to play video games.
So it is absolutely a vicious cycle. Wow.
Wow. I'm just thinking about my days of playing video game.
I don't think I've ever done 16 hours of video game. I'm a Gen Xer. Sorry.
Yeah, no, that's fine. I mean, that's what separates us addicts from the rest
(03:19):
of the folks. And, you know, we had Nintendo, Atari, and the game systems, they got too hot.
So you had to get off and go out in the road to play. Okay.
So I just want to talk to you a little bit more because I've seen with my nephews
and my great nephews that they can stay glued to the game for so long.
(03:41):
What can parents and teachers do to help with this addiction?
Let's just call it an addiction.
Yeah, so I think it's a great, great, great question. So I think the most important
thing for parents to do is sounds a little bit surprising, but it's actually talk to your kid.
So the biggest problem that parents run into is that when you see your nephew
or grand nephew or son spending too much time on the game, the parental instinct
(04:04):
is to take the game away and get them to stop playing, right?
Because it's clearly not healthy.
This is a very natural parental instinct. The problem is that when you give
into that instinct, you are now fighting against your child.
And one thing that I've learned practicing addiction psychiatry is that you
can never be sober for someone else.
(04:25):
The person who wants to be developed a healthy relationship,
the one who is using the substance, whether it's alcohol or gaming,
has to want to reduce their gaming themselves.
So what we strongly recommend to a lot of parents is talk to your child about
why do you want to play this game?
What is it that the game does for you? What is it that makes life hard for you to live?
(04:47):
And as parents start to understand what is going on in their child,
two very important things will happen.
The first thing that happens is that you and your child are now on the same page.
Instead of fighting against your child, you understand what their challenges are.
And then the second thing is that once you understand what the challenges
are, you can start to cooperate to fix those things.
(05:09):
And so, this is something that we really lay out step by step in how to raise a healthy gamer.
But like, you know, a really good example is a lot of times kids will play a
lot of video games because they're bullied at school, because they don't know
how to make friends, because they feel socially awkward.
And so once as a parent, you understand this is what's driving the gaming behavior,
(05:29):
you can start to work on those problems so that the child needs the video game less.
Oh, I love it. And you said a quote that I love. You can't be sober for someone else.
Yeah, right. And that's the challenge. I love it.
So I'm thinking about individuals that are diagnosed with ADHD.
(05:52):
How does that relate to individuals that are addicted to video game or gaming?
ADHD is such a vulnerability for a video game addiction. So,
you know, we see this a lot. I would say maybe...
You know, there are about five or six million people in our healthy gaming community.
And I want to say like maybe 20% or 30% of them have ADHD is what my gut check is.
(06:18):
So, if you think about ADHD, it's a mind that has difficulty focusing.
And if you really think about when the happiest times in your life are,
it's usually when you're focusing.
So even if you think about something like your wedding day, on your wedding
day, you're thinking about getting married. Like that's what makes it so enjoyable.
If we think about, let's say, getting lost in a good book or walking along the
(06:42):
beach and looking at the sunset, when you're walking along the beach and looking
at a sunset, your mind is fully focused in the moment.
It feels really good as a human being to be like very into something and have your mind be focused.
Now, the challenge with kids with ADHD is if you look at things like school,
school is not designed for children with ADHD.
So, their mind wanders a lot. They don't do as well.
(07:04):
They get in trouble. and then as an alternative they
have something like a video game and the video game is full
of flashing colors it's full of loud sounds it's
full of little trophies that you get that keep you
engaged because people with ADHD don't have trouble focusing on a video game
and that's how they're designed, so what that results in is a child kind of has
(07:25):
two options either I can do very poorly in the real world be incredibly distracted
get in trouble at school or i can focus on this video
game, which makes focusing really easy, is enjoyable,
gives my brain a spurt of dopamine.
And so, it's really a real problem that ADHD is a vulnerability for all of the
things that video games do.
(07:47):
Wow. You said a mouthful.
Yeah. I love it. I love it because another parent, we were having a conversation
and a parent asked about how ADHD would relate to depression in children.
And I think when you just talked about how focusing and they have the game in
(08:08):
and they're allowed to focus, can you expand on that a little bit more with the depression?
Absolutely. So, this is another really fascinating research.
So, if you look at people who have ADHD and depression, what you find is 3% of
people with depression will grow up to have ADHD.
(08:29):
3%. 70% of people with ADHD will grow up to have depression.
So, this is what something that we're really discovering, which is that growing
up with ADHD is a severe risk factor for depression.
So, what tends to happen is imagine you're like an eight-year-old kid and you're
(08:50):
in school and you know that your job in school is to study, is to pay attention,
but your brain isn't capable of that.
And kids are very good at estimating intelligence. So, you know that you're as
smart as your friends, but for some reason, your grades are not as good and
you don't really understand why that is.
Everyone tells you to try to focus better, apply yourself more.
(09:13):
I kind of got this. I'm probably on the ADHD spectrum. And my teachers always
told me, oh, he would do so much better if he has so much potential.
If he applied himself, he would do so much better.
So, what happens when you grow up with ADHD is that you start to fail at a lot of things in life.
You have difficulty even in relationships.
(09:34):
So, there are some studies that show that by the second grade,
a child with ADHD will get invited to zero birthday parties.
And the reason for that is that when you're on the playground,
you cut in line because you don't know how to wait for your turn.
You're very impulsive. So, kids actually don't like other children with ADHD.
So, there are social consequences, academic performance consequences.
(09:57):
And then that comes with a lot of shame. People sort of start to feel like they're broken.
And as they grow up feeling they're broken, that's what leads to depression later in life. Oh, wow.
Wow. Oh, gosh. Okay.
Sounds bleak, doesn't it? Good news is that all this stuff can be fixed.
Okay, that's the silver lining. I just want the silver lining.
(10:20):
Yeah, no. So, I think it's really important to remember that,
you know, just because problems are severe.
We have to remember that good diagnosis precedes good treatment.
My experience as a psychiatrist has been that once you understand what a problem
is, it can seem really severe.
But once you understand what's wrong, then you can really go about fixing it.
(10:42):
And for a lot of the people that I work with, a lot of the parents that I work
with, they struggle with gaming addiction because they are there.
You know, they struggle with their children's gaming addiction because they
don't understand why their children are playing. And once you get to that root
cause, then you can, it becomes so much easier to make a change.
So, education is important.
(11:02):
Critical. Okay. I love that. Education is important.
Is there anything else parents can do to us?
Absolutely. So, I think a big thing that parents can do is to be,
I know it sounds kind of weird, but sort of like nonjudgmental towards gaming.
So, spend time with your child, right?
So, if your child is playing a video game, sit down with them,
(11:23):
watch them play the video game, ask them questions about the video game,
really try to understand what is it about this?
Like, how are you able to spend eight hours a day doing this? Help me understand.
And the cool thing is simply by becoming a part of their world,
you will sort of form an alliance.
And once your child understands that you understand gaming, they're much more likely to listen to you.
(11:46):
And it's kind of weird, right? Because as parents, we tend to be pretty involved with our kids' lives.
When they're playing with other kids at the playground, we're kind of paying
attention to who they're playing with.
We know when they go over to someone's house for a play date,
we're the ones that arrange it. You know, their friends will come over to our
place and we're kind of watching.
OK, is this a good friend? Is this a bad friend? Is a good influence or bad influence?
(12:07):
The really weird thing about gaming is it's the one part of your child's life
where as a parent, we're usually quite absent.
So that needs to be addressed. Wow. Wow.
Wow. So it's basically you're creating a new relationship, but around gaming.
Or you're strengthening the relationship, not creating a new relationship.
(12:27):
Absolutely. So you don't want to give your child the impression that you're 100% anti-gaming.
What you really want to do is understand the gaming, understand why they want to play.
And then when you talk to them about setting limits, you'll be coming from a
much more informed perspective.
Okay. I love it. I love it. I love it because I've been noticing a lot of parents
(12:51):
don't converse with their children as much as they should.
And I think this would be a really good conversation piece around the video game.
So question for you, we talk about healthy gaming.
Is it very any is gaming beneficial? There are some studies that show that gaming can be helpful.
(13:16):
So two of my favorite studies, one is done by the United States Department of
Defense, looking at soldiers who play video games versus soldiers who don't.
And in 2015, the USDOD found that soldiers who play video games have a 20% higher
something called fluid IQ.
So this is a problem solving intelligence that actually gets boosted through playing video games.
(13:42):
The second study is really fascinating, actually comes from surgeons.
And so surgeons who play video games are 20 percent or sorry,
have one third of the errors that surgeons who don't play video games make in
terms of like surgical expertise.
So it seems that, you know, there is some benefit to hand eye coordination.
(14:02):
There is some benefit to problem solving capabilities. So there are some benefits to gaming. Nice.
So what about gaming benefits for individuals on the autism spectrum?
Yeah, so autism spectrum is
another great example of how two things can blend in a very unhealthy way.
(14:24):
So we know that people on the autism spectrum are more likely to get addicted to video games.
We also know that people on the autism spectrum who play a lot of video games
will have worsening of their autism symptoms.
So people who play video games, especially massively multiplayer online RPGs,
(14:46):
are more likely to have temper tantrums and meltdowns if they're on the autism spectrum.
So video games can actually like exacerbate some of the symptoms of autism.
The problem is that, once again, people on the autism spectrum have a choice
between regular life and the video game life.
And if we look at some of the deficits in autism, a very common deficit,
(15:08):
for example, is like difficulty reading social cues, paying attention to facial
expressions, nonverbal communication.
These are all things that people with autism frequently struggle with.
And so the real world is full of people giving you nonverbal cues.
Is this person, do they cross their arms?
Are they smiling at me? Do they like me? Do they not like me?
(15:28):
And that socialization can be very difficult for people on the autism spectrum.
Compare that to a video game where everyone is just texting to each other, right?
So you can read, there's no facial expressions involved. There's no body language involved.
The rules in the video game are very, very clear.
This is where you start. This is where you end. Whereas the real world is so nebulous. lists.
(15:50):
So oftentimes people on the autism spectrum are very attracted to video games
because everything is super clear and super concrete. Very interesting.
How much gaming is too much gaming?
That's such a great question. And the one that's the question that I get the
most often from parents.
And so I'll bounce that back to you. So how much, let's say drinking is too much drinking, right?
(16:16):
This is where I know it sounds kind of crazy, but we all get caught up in,
okay, is two hours a day too much? Is one hour a day too much?
I don't really think about it like that. I think about it in a different way.
It doesn't matter whether it's one hour, 10 hours, or 100 hours a week.
What matters is, are you doing everything that you're supposed to be doing in life?
So I've worked with people who will play video games for 40 or 50 hours a week,
(16:39):
but they They are commercial real estate developers who are happily married.
So they're doing everything that they're supposed to be doing in life.
Their physical health is good. Their mental health is good.
Their relationships are good.
They just prefer to spend all of their free time playing video games.
That's actually totally fine. And I've met other people who will play video
games for 10 to 20 hours a week, but are doing so as a form of avoidance.
(17:01):
And so that can be a problem. So I don't really focus on a particular hourly
amount. What I really think about is that the healthy amount of gaming is the
gaming that is done after all of your responsibilities are taken care of.
So how can I get how can parent get a child to be interested in something else besides gaming?
(17:23):
That's a beautiful question. So the cool thing is that they are already interested
in things besides gaming.
We just need to uncover it. And I know that sounds kind of weird,
but let me give you an example.
So the way that video games work is that they activate certain parts of our
brain that have historically and evolutionarily been activated by real life things.
(17:45):
I don't know if that kind of makes sense, but like, you know,
we all like having friends. We We all like forming bonds and forming connections.
So there's a part of our brain that is very social. Now what video games have
done is you can have friends online.
You can have an avatar online. You can dress up your avatar.
So all of these things like we like to dress in particular clothing,
fashion has been very important for human beings for thousands of years.
(18:07):
So what video games basically do is create an artificial world that activates our brain.
But what we find when I work with these gamers and I work with parents and we
help them sort of get better.
What we sort of find is that if you figure out why they're playing the game,
you can actually find similar activities in the real world.
So I worked with one gamer who really liked being competitive.
(18:31):
So they really like challenging themselves and winning in the video game.
That's why they get addicted to that particular game.
So then the only issue is let's find something that engages that competitive
spirit in the real world.
And with the right support, they sort of signed up for a martial arts class.
Their parents were really supportive. They sort of made that decision with their
parents instead of the parents making the decision for them.
(18:53):
And then they started going to martial arts class for six hours a week.
And that's six hours that they're no longer gaming.
So I think oftentimes once we understand why they're gaming,
we can figure out what that need is and then find replacements in the real world. That's awesome.
So let's talk about your book, How to Raise a Healthy Gamer,
End Power Struggles, Break break bad screen habits, and transform your relationship with your kids.
(19:19):
Talk about it, Dr. K. Yeah, so, you know, this is a book.
It's interesting because I am a recovering gaming addict myself,
and I've worked with hundreds of gamers.
So my main area of expertise is actually working not with the parents, but with the kids.
And as we started growing incredibly rapidly, parents started reaching out to
(19:40):
us and saying, hey, I have a kid who has a problem.
Can you help me? So, four years ago, we started helping parents.
We developed this program that has a couple of really important steps,
and we've done research studies on this.
We've presented our findings at places like the American Psychiatric Association on our programs.
So the data is really good. And so what we basically break it down into is that
(20:00):
if you're having trouble with your child who's playing video games,
the first thing that we want you to do is understand as a parent.
So as a parent, you need to know what the game is doing to your child's brain.
What it's doing to their mind, how it's affecting them.
And once you're armed with that knowledge, we move on to step two,
which is really confusing for a lot of parents. But we recommend that you just
talk to your child for at least one month without setting any limits.
(20:24):
So what we need to do as a parent, the most effective parenting is when we understand
our kids. So then we move to the understanding phase.
And then during that, you'll oftentimes build an alliance with your child because
now it's no longer you fighting against your child.
Then what y'all do is you pick some goal that your child cares about.
Like, hey, I don't have many friends at school.
And then y'all work together to solve their problem. So it's not like parents
(20:47):
saying, hey, this is a problem.
This needs to be fixed. Your child is working with you. And then we sort of
go into a lot of detail around how to set boundaries and how to enforce boundaries.
A lot of scientific studies show that parents will make a lot of mistakes when
they think they're doing the right thing. So we sort of equip parents with that information.
And so it kind of it's a start to finish program that also includes a lot of
(21:08):
things like sample dialogue.
So like, what should you say? How should you ask questions?
And these are all evidence based approaches. There have been tons of scientific
studies that show that this is effective.
And so our program involves understanding what's going on, building an alliance
with your kid, developing the right goals, and then setting and enforcing healthy boundaries.
And once we do those four things, and in that order, we tend to see complete
(21:30):
turnarounds in so many children.
So how can parents find out more about your program?
Yeah, so they can find How to Raise a Healthy Gamer anywhere that books are
sold. The book is out now.
And, you know, it was it was like number one on certain lists and things like
that for addictions and psychology and things like that. So, you can find it
anywhere that books are sold.
(21:50):
OK, and do you have a website? I know you do, but I just wanted to toot your horn.
They can also go to healthygamer.gg/parents.
So, we have a parent section of the website where they can find more resources.
And then we also have a YouTube channel where you can see me doing interviews
with parents as well as with kids who are addicted to video games.
(22:12):
So, you can sort of hear, you know, real live conversations about these various
topics with the people involved.
And it's important when you see someone being interviewed, you know,
you can pick up little nuggets or you can say, well, OK, I can relate to that.
So, parents do check it out. check out the YouTube channel also do you have any
(22:32):
recommendations for a parent who is struggling.
With their child and their child's game and addiction?
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think one pitfall that a lot of parents fall into is
that they see that their child is having a problem, and they want to fix it 100%.
(22:53):
And so oftentimes what parents will do is instead of focusing on small progress
over a long period of time, you see your child struggling and you want to fix it right away.
So, battling an addiction is something that can sometimes be a lifelong process.
Thankfully, it's not that way most of the time. But we tend to find that a parent
(23:14):
really needs to slow down.
So, we recommend, you know, it usually takes anywhere between three months on
the earliest side or two years on the later side to really conquer this problem. So slow down.
The other big mistake that a lot of parents make is they don't take care of themselves.
So, when you as a parent are exhausted, when you're frustrated.
You're not going to be bringing the right energy to your parent-child relationship.
(23:38):
And as the parent gets more exhausted and frustrated, the child is going to
retreat into the video game themselves.
So, I know it sounds kind of weird, but like my best advice for parents is go
slower, do a little bit less and take care of yourself.
And you will see the changes in your child. It's not an overnight process.
It's not. It really isn't. Right. What we recommend is build, letting your
(24:01):
child build their own habits, right?
Building healthy habits with your child so you don't have to constantly be policing them.
That's the big mistake that a lot of parents make is they try to do the work
for their kid instead of building the right habits with your child so
that they self-regulate.
Self-regulation. I love it.
So, explain a little bit more about self-regulate because I don't,
(24:25):
I think a lot of parents don't understand that concept.
Yeah. So, if we think about it this way, so let's say your kid is playing too
many video games and then you as a parent come home and you say no more video
games and then you institute some punishment to get them to stop.
Now, if we really think about this, what it requires for your child to stop
is you punishing them. They're not actually learning anything.
(24:48):
They're not building a good habit. All they're learning is that when mom or
dad is around, then I can't play video games.
But the moment that they disappear, I'm free to play video games.
Your child is not being taught to be independent.
So instead, what we recommend, and this is why we have this slow approach,
is to have your children learn self-regulation.
(25:08):
So, I'll give you like a really simple example that I do with my kids.
I have a six-year-old and an eight-year-old. We play video games together.
I have a bunch of video game systems in my house, and this is what I do with them.
Saturday morning rolls around, and of course, what do they want to do?
They want to play a video game. They want to watch TV.
And I'll even say, okay, fine, we can do that.
So, we'll do that for half an hour, and I'll say, do you guys want to play more?
(25:32):
Do you want to play less? They, of course, want to play more.
So at the one-hour mark, I'll then ask them, hey, how much fun are you having?
And if you're a parent who has children who play video games,
you know exactly what I'm talking about.
At the very beginning, they're having fun, but then an hour in,
two hours in, they're not even having fun.
They're getting angry, they're getting moody, they're getting cranky,
but they don't want to stop.
(25:52):
So then what I'll do is I'll force them to stop at the one-hour mark,
and then we'll go outside, and we'll go to the playground.
And after 30 minutes at the playground, I will ask them, hey,
was it a good idea that we stopped?
Did you actually, do you, are you having fun now, now or do you wish you were
back at home playing a video game?
Do you want to go home now, or do you want to stay at the playground?
(26:13):
And the kids will be like, no, we're not ready to go home yet.
So, there's a big aspect of sitting with your kids and inviting them to pay attention
and understand the impact of screens and video games on their mind.
We as parents don't usually do this, right? So we don't really like spend a
(26:33):
lot of time asking them to think about, are you having as much fun on hour two as hour one?
What we tend to do as parents is we say, that's enough. You're no longer having fun.
I'm going to take it away from you. But what we really want to do is develop
that capacity for self-regulation by encouraging our children to be more aware
of the impact of video games on their brain, on their body.
(26:57):
And once children start to learn these lessons themselves, they will start to self-regulate.
Dr. K, we have about one minute left.
I know that it can feel very, very overwhelming as a parent to deal with video
games. they have invaded every corner of our lives, as well as cell phones and
social media and things like that.
And so a lot of parents are hopeless. But the good news is that we see really good outcomes.
(27:20):
If you really understand what the problem is and approach it in sort of an evidence-based
way, we see that a lot of parents will have a healthier relationship with their
children, and their children will really learn to self-regulate and be more
independent. So don't lose hope.
That's awesome. Thank you, Dr. K. And Ability Radio has been brought to you
by the Disability Rights Center of the Virgin Islands, St.
(27:43):
Thomas, St. Croix, two locations.
You can find us on www.drcvi.org. Thank you once again, Dr. K. 417un 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:59,530 The views expressed on this program are not necessarily those of WTJX's board, staff, or underwriters.
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