March 15, 2024 • 26 mins
Join Jessi and Erin in a heart-warming episode of Adventures in Parenting, featuring Jennifer Bollerman, the Assistant Director at Patchogue-Medford Library and an Ambassador of Applied Compassion through Stanford University. Listen as they dive into the science of compassion, distinguishing it from empathy, revealing its positive effects on mental and physical health, and its significant role in parenting.
Episode #11, March 2024
For more resources on this topic, check out our topic guide: Adventures in Parenting Episode #11 Resource Guide.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, listeners, welcome to another episode of Adventures in Parenting.
I'm Jessi. And I'm Erin. We're librarians. We're busy moms. And we love podcasts.
Today, we're in Studio E at the Patchogue Medford Library with our guest,
Jennifer Ballerman, who is not only the Assistant Director here at Patchogue
Medford Library, but is also certified as an Ambassador of Applied Compassion
(00:20):
through Stanford University.
Jennifer, thank you. Happy to be here. Jennifer is joining us today to discuss
compassion, what it really means, how to practice it, and how it relates to
just being modern parents.
So Jennifer, I feel like a lot of people either confuse compassion and empathy
or use them interchangeably, but they are really different.
So to get us started, maybe you can explain the defining aspects of the two or the differences.
(00:41):
Sure, I'd be happy to. Yeah, they're often used interchangeably,
but they actually are different concepts.
I guess the quickest way to think of it is empathy is an emotion while compassion is an action.
So empathy is kind of this feeling with and compassion's feeling for.
So they are very different. Empathy does help you get to compassionate action,
but there are neurologically different concepts.
(01:03):
And what I mean by that is they happen in different parts of the brain.
So people experiencing raw empathy might find that it's actually a painful element.
It does take place in a brain region that's associated with pain and negative emotions.
When we're compassionate, a whole different part of our brain lights up,
providing us with different feelings of connection and more positive feelings.
Empathy can be exhausting.
(01:25):
Empathy is incredibly exhausting. And people often just focus on the good parts of empathy.
And it's really, it is a beautiful thing. It's so necessary for relationships, but it is exhausting.
This idea of taking on and feeling what another person is feeling,
as opposed to simply wanting to help, is very different.
So essentially, you don't really even need empathy to get to compassion.
(01:47):
Stanford would say it's a necessary part, that compassion is actually a four-part process.
So if we could, maybe we should just define what compassion is.
Compassion is a willingness to turn to suffering and alleviate it in some capacity.
And we tend to think of suffering as this crazy, you know, the little trifles
or the little troubles of our day don't count.
No, that counts as suffering too. Our daily troubles count.
(02:10):
Suffering is a loaded word. It's a loaded word. I've heard you talk about this
before. And every time you say suffering, I immediately go to like children.
Yeah, with like the big swollen bellies and they're starving.
Like that's where my brain goes. But you're right. It's really just like,
oh, I'm having a bad day. Yeah.
Suffering is basically any moment in time when our experience is other than
what we want it to be. Oh, sure. So like toddlers are constantly suffering.
(02:34):
Their whole life is suffering. Their whole life is suffering.
No wonder they're so dramatic. and they haven't developed any kind of coping
skills yet. So yes, they are suffering in a big way.
They are. So compassion is a four-part process.
First part is noticing, right? So in order to even get to the point of being
compassionate, we have to notice that there's some kind of suffering happening around us.
(02:56):
And the second part is connecting. So this would be like our empathy piece.
It's hard to be compassionate if we don't feel this connection or feel emotionally
moved by, you know, the suffering that we see.
And then the third part is we have to be willing to do something about it.
It's all well and good to notice suffering and feel empathy,
but we have to interpret that we want to do something about this and make a
(03:18):
step forward to help relieve the suffering.
And then finally, when those pieces fall into place, then you actually can do
something compassionate, actually taking action to relieve the suffering.
And that just happens. Like, it's not like we're doing the checking these boxes
in our brain. This is just like the process.
This is the steps in the process. I would think some of it happens below the
(03:40):
level of radar, below our level of awareness.
But then also some of it is very conscious.
So, for example, step three, being willing. You are actually interpreting a
situation in a certain way and deciding whether it's worthy of your time and
attention to take some action to alleviate the person's suffering or your own suffering.
So again, to like bring back the toddler, you're watching your toddler have
(04:00):
a tantrum and that's where you're at step three.
You're like, am I willing right now to alleviate this suffering or am I just
going to let them work it out? Right.
And how might I do that? So, for example, a very extreme example would be you
could make an interpretation like, oh, well, they did this to themselves.
It's their own fault. That is very purposefully making a decision not to be
compassionate in that moment and help alleviate their suffering,
(04:23):
which is very different from interpreting it and deciding, okay,
I'm going to go up to my child, pick them up, tell them, no, no, it's okay.
What are you feeling right now? And trying to comfort them in a way and redirect their energies.
I wonder, Erin and I were talking off mic before just about social media and
how it seems it's not necessarily about parenting, but just the world in general,
(04:43):
how people online seem less compassionate.
And just in going through those four steps, I'm wondering if it's because that
second step about connecting isn't there because it's very easy to see something
online and you're not actually connecting with it or engaging with it.
So you can be so judgmental and there's no compassion there.
Do you think that plays a part?
I think so. So I think, I mean, a big element of not noticing and not connecting is being distracted.
(05:08):
And I think most of us would argue that when we're in the online world and space,
we are not being very careful about our attention and what we're choosing to
focus on. We are very distracted.
Yeah, sometimes that's the point, right? You go online to be distracted from the day to day.
And I will say in the online environment, too, it's very easy to just start comparing.
And comparison is the thief of joy. It is the deep of joy, but it also just,
(05:32):
it really does take away from your connecting with another human being when
you're comparing yourself to them.
It's interesting too, like I'm just thinking going back to parenting about noticing
and being fully present, like that kind of goes into mindfulness and just being
aware of what's really going on with your kid.
So I'm obsessed with Dr. Becky. Do you know her? No. You're good inside.
(05:53):
Not to promote someone else who needs literally no promotion.
It's all about being aware in the sit in the moment and you're not really looking
at the behavior You're kind of looking at like the big picture and then you
are more compassionate because you're actually noticing What's going on with
your kid? You're not just looking at the surface and like.
Well, we're taught to pay attention more to the big moments at an early age
(06:13):
to shrug the little things off like,
oh, that's not worth getting so upset about or that's not really a problem or,
you know, you're kind of taught to hide a lot of feelings that maybe aren't
so insignificant when you really take the time to look at them.
When you consider that this person is, you know, seven and that this is a big deal to them.
But anyway, so to get back to the actual expert in the room,
we talked a little bit about compassion, but so how does it actually apply to parenting?
(06:36):
How can we take these elements and be better parents?
I think for me, most of us would say fundamentally important in our parenting,
I have a son, I'm a mom as well, is that we want them to be well-adjusted,
happy, caring human human beings.
And compassion is fundamental to that. And we don't tend to think of it that way.
But compassion, the science of compassion, it's all tied to a higher level of
(07:01):
happiness for human beings.
It's basically a fundamental to our health and wellness as an individual and as a society.
But we tend to not really think of it that way. But it's true.
No, compassion is seen as a weakness. It is.
It's seen that way. But the science tells us otherwise, how it really plays out.
So just a a few examples, like connecting with others in a meaningful way helps
(07:21):
us enjoy just better mental and physical health.
It's also been tied to speeding up recovery to diseases.
So it's just really a fundamental part of being human. Can you just really quickly,
because listeners, I've heard Jennifer do this before.
I work closely with Jennifer and I've heard her do her compassion talk.
And she mentioned during one of her workshops about the truth behind the quote,
survival of the fittest, which is what kind of leads us to have this mindset
(07:44):
that, you know, know, compassion is weak.
Like you need to pull yourself up and be fit and all these things.
So what is the truth of that? Because I think this is mind blowing.
I hope I know I'm putting you on the spot.
Yes, we tend to throw around. Oh, well, you know, Darwin said it's all about
survival of the fittest.
Darwin did not actually say survival of the fittest. That was paraphrased by
a contemporary of Darwin's named Herbert Spencer.
(08:06):
And he did that after reading on the origin of species.
Darwin stated specifically in that communities, which included the greatest
number of the most sympathetic members would flourish best and rear the greatest number of offspring.
So Darwin even knew back then that compassion was a natural and automatic response
that has ensured our survival.
So it's a very different message in how the biology played out, according to Darwin.
(08:30):
However you want to think about it, it's better for us as a society,
but the science of this shows it's so much about the happiness of the child, too.
That, for example, They know that giving and volunteering creates positive changes
in the brain and that people who do this are happier.
It really ignites the pleasure centers in our brain. We get dopamine hits, things of that sort.
Things like simply witnessing someone be kind to another person creates what
(08:54):
they call in social psychology a sense of moral elation within us.
That all these kinds of things are reinforced in our biology.
I once heard a debate about whether if you should want your kids to be happy
or you should want your kids to be good.
And essentially it came down to you really should want them to be good because
happiness is so fleeting. You could get happiness from anything.
(09:16):
But it seems that those two things, from what you just said,
essentially go hand in hand.
If you focus on the compassion and doing good, then you will essentially be happy.
If you're not going for those quick fixes, you're really focusing on the action
of compassion and doing good. Yeah.
And I just mentioned a few studies that talk about the biology of it,
just like that our brain and going back to Darwin, that now they know just there
(09:40):
are things as our species does to encourage us to get along well with others,
to be kind and compassionate to each other.
Our biology is reinforcing for us to do and act this way because that is really
our best for our survival.
How do we teach this to our children practically one of the most important things
you can do for your children is to be Self-compassionate let your child know
(10:03):
that it's okay to find things hard and that everyone makes mistakes It's okay
to feel sad angry disappointed frustrated,
but that it's not okay to say mean things about yourself It can help to ask
your child what they might say to a friend in the same situation I think it.
Starts by giving them your undivided attention.
(10:23):
And I think we tend to think we do that a lot more than we do in reality,
because life is busy. Life gets in the way. You have other demands.
So much of it is modeling, actually how to listen to people,
how to take turns and have a conversation.
Can we coach them to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and try and figure
out why they did something?
Why do you think so-and-so thought that? Or why do you think they said that?
(10:46):
Things like that really go far in helping them develop their empathy skills
and then get their way to like a compassionate action.
Also critical thinking, too. If you're not initially just jumping to the conclusion,
but you're trying to figure it out. Yeah. I think that would be helpful.
Seems like common sense, modeling kindness, patience, trying not to be judgmental.
But these are so difficult.
(11:07):
You know, everyone thinks that they, oh, well, of course I'm modeling kindness
to my kid. And then, well, that's the thing. Not modeling.
Kindness now is almost like a buzzword. I had a colleague at Stanford who worked in a Washington, D.C.
Public school system, and she said that the children don't have a vocabulary for kindness anymore.
That if you ask them, what does kind mean, being kind mean, they have a very
(11:30):
difficult time actually defining it.
So I think that goes to show you where the level of work is for parenting,
that they're not picking up a lot of these things where it's not being reinforced by society.
So how do we as parents wanting to raise healthy, happy human beings,
how do we do this on a day-to-day basis?
When you're starting with, well, what does kindness mean? And I think so much
(11:52):
is for parenting for us as parents is just what do we choose to focus on?
What are we choosing to talk about with our children on the day-to-day?
Are we asking them to take care of somebody else in our family, in the community?
Do we say, oh, you know, so-and-so looks sad? Or do we say things like that?
Do we point stuff out like that?
(12:12):
Or are we just giving them the phone again? Compassion actually doesn't take
very much time. I think people think, oh, it takes all this time.
It's sort of little adjustments to how you operate and just choosing to be with
one thing at a time and not trying to do too much, but making an intention to
focus on these things that you think that we think are important for our children.
And they really, really are.
(12:33):
I mean, one of the greatest benefits of compassion for our kids is that people
who practice compassion, they generally have less anxiety and depression. depression.
And I mean, this is just such a crazy large problem right now with our adolescents.
Maybe the time aspect of it is because we're all thinking that compassion is
reserved for the big suffering.
You know what I mean? So maybe that's where the time, like, I don't have enough time to take that on.
(12:58):
I think we tend to make a lot of assumptions with our children and we do a lot of judging.
And I think just being mindful of that and trying to replace some of our assumptions
and and judging with just curiosity and asking our children like, oh, really?
Why would you say that? Why do you think that? It's just teach yourself not
to assume or go right into a judging mode, to just be able to pause and respond
(13:21):
instead of react and just ask.
That's key to making a really good case.
I also find like when you step back and you ask the question instead of just
assuming, it also alleviates your suffering because then you understand the situation better.
Like I remember one time my daughter, when she was younger, would try on a dress
and she was like, I look fat. And she was like three.
(13:41):
So I like immediately from the other room, I was like, oh, I was like,
oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.
And I just kind of like took a minute and I was like, well, what do you mean
by that? You know, where'd you hear that?
And she's like, oh, no, like the dress shape makes me look like a square.
I look like a fat square. Like, so she wasn't coming from it from the perspective of an adult at all.
And so, like, I got myself all worked up when really when I just asked the question, she answered it.
(14:02):
And I was like, oh, OK, like, I don't have to we don't have to have this conversation right now.
So I could see how even if you think like, I don't have the time to figure out
why this kid is saying this right now, like you essentially are doing yourself
a favor by understanding it better. Right.
Ultimate, you will have less stress in the long run. Right.
Worrying that, what have I done? We tend to beat ourselves up.
What have I done that my child is thinking that they're fat? Yes, exactly.
(14:25):
My three-year-old. It's crazy. crazy.
One of the most interesting studies I've read recently was a Dutch study.
They studied like 900 families and they it was trying to figure out what about
mindful parenting was so beneficial to children.
And they came down to it. We all came down to self-compassion,
that children who had self-compassionate parents did better, were happier.
(14:49):
You know, all those things we've been talking about.
And it's just really interesting that it really did come down to self-compassion.
It's all about modeling.
Kids, you can say one thing, but they will do what they have seen you do time and time again.
I think one of the easiest tips is try to bring back dinner time where you're
not watching TV, you don't have phones out, where you're fully present and focusing
on each other, really listening and modeling how to have a conversation.
(15:13):
Instead of defaulting to asking about grades, aim for something different.
So perhaps ask them, how are you feeling today?
What was the best part of your day? What was the hardest?
Specifically ask them how someone in their class or their friend is doing.
So how is X doing today? Were you kind today?
Try to share with them some of the things that you did today that were kind.
(15:35):
Questions such as these help nurture the empathy, caring, and compassion that exists inside them.
What are we talking about? 15, 20 minutes, half hour, if you're really talking, a day.
And using that time to model compassion for your children, how to make a connection
with another human being, how to not judge another human being too quickly,
how to ask more probing questions to deepen the bond.
(15:58):
To me, that's very doable and a very realistic goal for people to do.
Like, you know, even just to say five nights a week, we're going to have dinner.
Even if you have older children and your week is a mess, maybe it's Saturday,
Sunday we do it. Just to be realistic, this is what we can achieve.
You're right. I feel like it's an attainable goal. But I also feel like for
our generation of parents, this idea, not that we didn't have dinnertime without
(16:21):
phones when I was a kid, but like my parents weren't really asking me probing questions.
You know, like the relationship between parents and children now is so different
that we're even thinking that we should be doing these things.
So I think having this conversation with you is so important because a lot of
us just weren't brought up with these skills.
You know, it wasn't my truth. It was like, how was your day?
Good? Great. Great. It was a different kind of love. Yeah.
(16:43):
Yeah. I will say, though, it's important to recognize if you're going to have
these conversations with your children, you want a real connection.
You're going to get real answers from them. Can you handle it?
Can you handle it? Yeah. That they might tell you they're not happy today.
Yes. And can you accept that? OK, that's normal.
You know, we tend to want to alleviate our children's pain as quickly as possible
(17:03):
instead of having a wider perspective on it, that they will feel sad sometimes.
They're They're going to have a hard day sometimes.
And that's a crucial element. It's crucial for them to learn how to cope with
their emotions and how to ultimately be a more compassionate human being.
If they don't have those experiences or you're constantly trying to move them
off them too quickly and they don't have time to sit with them and learn from
(17:25):
them, it's going to be much harder for them to be more compassionate to another.
And not even compassionate, like capable at dealing with life.
Just things are not always going to go their way. And, you know,
if they can learn how to be more self-compassionate and handle those things
better and accept that these emotions are going to happen, but it doesn't mean
I'm a failure. It just means I'm having a bad day.
(17:46):
That's a really important tool. And I don't think, again, I don't want to speak
for an entire generation of millennials, but like I wasn't really taught that,
you know, it was kind of like, oh, I'll figure it out at some point.
Yeah. I had a son who was very like a lot of questions.
Yeah. And some of those meals, yeah, you were like, oh.
Is this going to ever end? You know, it is OK to tell them mommy's tired today. Right.
(18:10):
That's OK. Sometimes. Yeah. There's a lot of research coming out.
Kids don't want their parents to be perfect. They don't need you to be perfect.
They actually need you. They need to know that nobody's perfect.
It's so important for them for their success in life overall to know that not
everyone's perfect and that's OK. So it's okay for mom, dad to say,
I'm sorry, or oops, I made a mistake on that one.
(18:32):
Or, you know, when you make mistakes, and you will, and I know we want to get
to talk about self-compassion, is to be okay.
Like, oh, you know, I'm sorry. I was so upset and I lost my temper.
It's not shameful to go there. I made a mistake because they learn then that
they can make mistakes and that it's okay.
It's okay. You just own up to it and you try to be better. Yeah.
What about compassion fatigue?
(18:53):
Danford would say that compassion fatigue is a misnomer and that the actual
correct term is empathic distress.
Empathy and compassion are different parts of the brain. Compassion is actually
rejuvenating, whereas empathy can be draining. So the better term is empathic distress.
And it is a legit concern. It sounds more mystical, empathic distress. I guess.
I have some extra sensory powers. But it's definitely some people have a tendency
(19:19):
to take on the emotions of others.
And that's something certain people have to learn how to cope with.
Just tell me how to cope with it, Jennifer.
Forget some people. Just tell me. Well, listeners, just mute for the next 30
seconds. And this is just for me.
Self-compassion and self-awareness are key. In this, whether you struggle with
(19:41):
empathic distress or you have different struggles with being a parent,
you really have to be kinder to yourself.
And we were saying before that self-compassion is just so essential to parenting.
Parenting is a really difficult job. We tend to do nothing but be really,
really hard on ourselves and constantly point out to ourselves that we're falling
(20:01):
short. And this is very counterproductive.
Research has shown that a parent's level of self-compassion is directly tied
to an an adolescent's level of well-being.
You know, when parents model kindness and non-judgment towards themselves,
adolescents imitate this, which thus will really reduce their anxiety and depression.
So if they're constantly looking at mom or dad beating themselves up,
(20:22):
not being kind to themselves, their stress goes up. And they start to do that to themselves.
Outwardly, right? Because I feel like I'm pretty good at masking it.
I'll just lay in bed at night and beat myself up in my own head.
You could tell yourself that, but I don't know.
I would I'm not hiding it as well as me. I don't know.
It's most likely that it's coming out in little ways, whether a little bit of
(20:45):
irritation, lack of patience, things of that sort.
But, you know, and I just want to back up a little bit, you know,
there's a flow to compassion.
So, for example, we give compassion like to our children and others in our community,
for example, right? But then we have also this element of receiving compassion.
And you might be good at one, but not as good at the other. And that's not uncommon.
And then there's also inner compassion. That's the self-compassion piece that
(21:07):
we're talking about, which is giving compassion to ourselves when we are in
pain and suffering. And again, we're not talking about pain and suffering as
this grandiose, horrible life event.
We're just talking about every day, the pain, everyday pain and suffering of
being human in this world.
So it's important to just think of it, I think, that there's three different
ways of compassion that we might be really, some might be easier for us than others.
(21:32):
I will say that self-compassion, particularly in the United States,
we tend to have a really averse reaction to it.
In my experience, when you say the word and everyone's almost like uniformly goes, yuck.
Is it kind of in the same bucket as like self-care now? Like everybody's like, oh, self-care.
And you're like, I don't have time for a massage today when really that's not
(21:53):
what it is. Self-care is important, but self-compassion and self-care are not the same thing.
If we look at self-compassion, self-compassion is made up of like three different parts.
So the first part is like what we would call a kindness.
What is your inner talk like to yourself? Research shows we tend to be very
critical of ourselves and that if people listen to what we were saying to ourselves
in our head, we would be talking to ourselves like in a way we wouldn't even
(22:16):
talk to like our worst enemy.
That we're just crazy mean to ourselves.
But I feel like it's frame of reference. It's the constant comparison that I'm not doing enough.
Well, that's it. You know, it's the internal monologue of like,
I'm never doing enough or I'm doing too much.
I think we're also taught we feel like we're going to lose our edge if we're nice to ourselves, too.
Yeah. So I think there's I think it comes from various places.
(22:39):
But the thing you need to know is that if you're self-critical,
it's just going to make you feel inadequate and insecure, which is going to make you less patient.
And you're just going to end up taking out frustrations on people closest.
So ultimately, it's counterproductive. This is like annoying to me.
Because like, I really feel like I've done so much work to be so much kinder to myself.
(23:00):
But what you're saying is like, all these outward signs are kind of proving
that like the work is not done. You know what I mean? The work is never done.
I mean, that's the thing with compassion.
If you, being compassionate is fundamental to being human. So it's part of like, it's constant.
It's not a one and done. It's a way of operating. It's a way of existing. It's never done.
(23:22):
You know, you might as well just get the Britney Spears song in your head. Oops, I did it again.
Because it's just kind of how it is. That's just being realistic about being
human and just the nature of existence.
You know, so self-kindness is a key part of self-compassion.
The other parts are common humanity.
That to remind, we talk a lot, just we keep saying it over and over again.
(23:44):
It's to be human, to be human.
This is this idea of common humanity. It reminds us that we're not alone in the world.
Our lot is to suffer. This is part of our existence.
We all make mistakes. We all have our weaknesses and our failures.
This is a normal part of everyone's life. And it's a certain level of comfort
in remembering this because we tend to look at everyone's perfect online life as one example.
(24:10):
Example and the other part is just is mindfulness so
those those three main keys of self-compassion and
mindfulness again it's not a relaxation technique it's not
nothing like that it's a word that sort of has taken on all these different
meanings but mindfulness is simply the ability to keep your attention on what
your present moment experience without getting too caught up in your thoughts
(24:32):
in your head and your judgment and it's a fundamental part of self-compassion
but all of these three elements.
Can you just break them down again? Self-being kind to yourself,
recognizing your common humanity, and mindfulness, that ability to keep your
attention on your present moment experience.
Without getting caught up with everything that's going on in your mind.
(24:55):
That is really key to what we're talking about. That's it. The answer to everything.
You heard it here. I guess we have no more questions. She just basically told
us how to solve every problem.
So essentially, if you want your kids to be compassionate, good,
helpful human beings, it really has to start with you. It has to start with you.
(25:19):
And it starts with learning to be nice to yourself.
And your children will learn that by watching you do it.
And it is very, in our modern world, with comparison online,
it's very easy for them to get, pick up habits of not being very nice to themselves
and being overly self-critical.
And I think that's part of the reason we see this, you know,
(25:40):
crazy high anxiety and depression levels in teens, especially.
Thankfully, Jennifer has put together a very nice list of resources and references.
We will have them on our resource guide that will be available online at our.
Music.
Website, adventuresinparentingpml.podbean.com, along with our other resource guides.
So thank you again to Jennifer for joining us today. Thank you so much,
(26:02):
Jennifer. Thanks for letting us derail you.
How lucky are we to work for Jennifer? Yes, seriously.
This is our boss, folks, so can you imagine how great the culture is here?
But if you liked our podcast today, please let your friends and family know and us.
We would love to hear from you with your thoughts on upcoming topics you want
to learn about or just general feedback.
You can email us at podcast at P-M-L-I-B dot org.
(26:26):
Awesome. Check out our website for all of our upcoming events here at the library.
And yeah, stop by, see us, talk to us.
Music.
Hey, listeners, welcome to another episode of Adventures in Parenting.
I'm Jessi. And I'm Erin. We're librarians. We're busy moms. And we love podcasts.
Today, we're in Studio E at the Patchogue Medford Library with our guest,
Jennifer Ballerman, who is not only the Assistant Director here at Patchogue
Medford Library, but is also certified as an Ambassador of Applied Compassion
(00:20):
through Stanford University.
Jennifer, thank you. Happy to be here. Jennifer is joining us today to discuss
compassion, what it really means, how to practice it, and how it relates to
just being modern parents.
So Jennifer, I feel like a lot of people either confuse compassion and empathy
or use them interchangeably, but they are really different.
So to get us started, maybe you can explain the defining aspects of the two or the differences.
(00:41):
Sure, I'd be happy to. Yeah, they're often used interchangeably,
but they actually are different concepts.
I guess the quickest way to think of it is empathy is an emotion while compassion is an action.
So empathy is kind of this feeling with and compassion's feeling for.
So they are very different. Empathy does help you get to compassionate action,
but there are neurologically different concepts.
(01:03):
And what I mean by that is they happen in different parts of the brain.
So people experiencing raw empathy might find that it's actually a painful element.
It does take place in a brain region that's associated with pain and negative emotions.
When we're compassionate, a whole different part of our brain lights up,
providing us with different feelings of connection and more positive feelings.
Empathy can be exhausting.
(01:25):
Empathy is incredibly exhausting. And people often just focus on the good parts of empathy.
And it's really, it is a beautiful thing. It's so necessary for relationships, but it is exhausting.
This idea of taking on and feeling what another person is feeling,
as opposed to simply wanting to help, is very different.
So essentially, you don't really even need empathy to get to compassion.
(01:47):
Stanford would say it's a necessary part, that compassion is actually a four-part process.
So if we could, maybe we should just define what compassion is.
Compassion is a willingness to turn to suffering and alleviate it in some capacity.
And we tend to think of suffering as this crazy, you know, the little trifles
or the little troubles of our day don't count.
No, that counts as suffering too. Our daily troubles count.
(02:10):
Suffering is a loaded word. It's a loaded word. I've heard you talk about this
before. And every time you say suffering, I immediately go to like children.
Yeah, with like the big swollen bellies and they're starving.
Like that's where my brain goes. But you're right. It's really just like,
oh, I'm having a bad day. Yeah.
Suffering is basically any moment in time when our experience is other than
what we want it to be. Oh, sure. So like toddlers are constantly suffering.
(02:34):
Their whole life is suffering. Their whole life is suffering.
No wonder they're so dramatic. and they haven't developed any kind of coping
skills yet. So yes, they are suffering in a big way.
They are. So compassion is a four-part process.
First part is noticing, right? So in order to even get to the point of being
compassionate, we have to notice that there's some kind of suffering happening around us.
(02:56):
And the second part is connecting. So this would be like our empathy piece.
It's hard to be compassionate if we don't feel this connection or feel emotionally
moved by, you know, the suffering that we see.
And then the third part is we have to be willing to do something about it.
It's all well and good to notice suffering and feel empathy,
but we have to interpret that we want to do something about this and make a
(03:18):
step forward to help relieve the suffering.
And then finally, when those pieces fall into place, then you actually can do
something compassionate, actually taking action to relieve the suffering.
And that just happens. Like, it's not like we're doing the checking these boxes
in our brain. This is just like the process.
This is the steps in the process. I would think some of it happens below the
(03:40):
level of radar, below our level of awareness.
But then also some of it is very conscious.
So, for example, step three, being willing. You are actually interpreting a
situation in a certain way and deciding whether it's worthy of your time and
attention to take some action to alleviate the person's suffering or your own suffering.
So again, to like bring back the toddler, you're watching your toddler have
(04:00):
a tantrum and that's where you're at step three.
You're like, am I willing right now to alleviate this suffering or am I just
going to let them work it out? Right.
And how might I do that? So, for example, a very extreme example would be you
could make an interpretation like, oh, well, they did this to themselves.
It's their own fault. That is very purposefully making a decision not to be
compassionate in that moment and help alleviate their suffering,
(04:23):
which is very different from interpreting it and deciding, okay,
I'm going to go up to my child, pick them up, tell them, no, no, it's okay.
What are you feeling right now? And trying to comfort them in a way and redirect their energies.
I wonder, Erin and I were talking off mic before just about social media and
how it seems it's not necessarily about parenting, but just the world in general,
(04:43):
how people online seem less compassionate.
And just in going through those four steps, I'm wondering if it's because that
second step about connecting isn't there because it's very easy to see something
online and you're not actually connecting with it or engaging with it.
So you can be so judgmental and there's no compassion there.
Do you think that plays a part?
I think so. So I think, I mean, a big element of not noticing and not connecting is being distracted.
(05:08):
And I think most of us would argue that when we're in the online world and space,
we are not being very careful about our attention and what we're choosing to
focus on. We are very distracted.
Yeah, sometimes that's the point, right? You go online to be distracted from the day to day.
And I will say in the online environment, too, it's very easy to just start comparing.
And comparison is the thief of joy. It is the deep of joy, but it also just,
(05:32):
it really does take away from your connecting with another human being when
you're comparing yourself to them.
It's interesting too, like I'm just thinking going back to parenting about noticing
and being fully present, like that kind of goes into mindfulness and just being
aware of what's really going on with your kid.
So I'm obsessed with Dr. Becky. Do you know her? No. You're good inside.
(05:53):
Not to promote someone else who needs literally no promotion.
It's all about being aware in the sit in the moment and you're not really looking
at the behavior You're kind of looking at like the big picture and then you
are more compassionate because you're actually noticing What's going on with
your kid? You're not just looking at the surface and like.
Well, we're taught to pay attention more to the big moments at an early age
(06:13):
to shrug the little things off like,
oh, that's not worth getting so upset about or that's not really a problem or,
you know, you're kind of taught to hide a lot of feelings that maybe aren't
so insignificant when you really take the time to look at them.
When you consider that this person is, you know, seven and that this is a big deal to them.
But anyway, so to get back to the actual expert in the room,
we talked a little bit about compassion, but so how does it actually apply to parenting?
(06:36):
How can we take these elements and be better parents?
I think for me, most of us would say fundamentally important in our parenting,
I have a son, I'm a mom as well, is that we want them to be well-adjusted,
happy, caring human human beings.
And compassion is fundamental to that. And we don't tend to think of it that way.
But compassion, the science of compassion, it's all tied to a higher level of
(07:01):
happiness for human beings.
It's basically a fundamental to our health and wellness as an individual and as a society.
But we tend to not really think of it that way. But it's true.
No, compassion is seen as a weakness. It is.
It's seen that way. But the science tells us otherwise, how it really plays out.
So just a a few examples, like connecting with others in a meaningful way helps
(07:21):
us enjoy just better mental and physical health.
It's also been tied to speeding up recovery to diseases.
So it's just really a fundamental part of being human. Can you just really quickly,
because listeners, I've heard Jennifer do this before.
I work closely with Jennifer and I've heard her do her compassion talk.
And she mentioned during one of her workshops about the truth behind the quote,
survival of the fittest, which is what kind of leads us to have this mindset
(07:44):
that, you know, know, compassion is weak.
Like you need to pull yourself up and be fit and all these things.
So what is the truth of that? Because I think this is mind blowing.
I hope I know I'm putting you on the spot.
Yes, we tend to throw around. Oh, well, you know, Darwin said it's all about
survival of the fittest.
Darwin did not actually say survival of the fittest. That was paraphrased by
a contemporary of Darwin's named Herbert Spencer.
(08:06):
And he did that after reading on the origin of species.
Darwin stated specifically in that communities, which included the greatest
number of the most sympathetic members would flourish best and rear the greatest number of offspring.
So Darwin even knew back then that compassion was a natural and automatic response
that has ensured our survival.
So it's a very different message in how the biology played out, according to Darwin.
(08:30):
However you want to think about it, it's better for us as a society,
but the science of this shows it's so much about the happiness of the child, too.
That, for example, They know that giving and volunteering creates positive changes
in the brain and that people who do this are happier.
It really ignites the pleasure centers in our brain. We get dopamine hits, things of that sort.
Things like simply witnessing someone be kind to another person creates what
(08:54):
they call in social psychology a sense of moral elation within us.
That all these kinds of things are reinforced in our biology.
I once heard a debate about whether if you should want your kids to be happy
or you should want your kids to be good.
And essentially it came down to you really should want them to be good because
happiness is so fleeting. You could get happiness from anything.
(09:16):
But it seems that those two things, from what you just said,
essentially go hand in hand.
If you focus on the compassion and doing good, then you will essentially be happy.
If you're not going for those quick fixes, you're really focusing on the action
of compassion and doing good. Yeah.
And I just mentioned a few studies that talk about the biology of it,
just like that our brain and going back to Darwin, that now they know just there
(09:40):
are things as our species does to encourage us to get along well with others,
to be kind and compassionate to each other.
Our biology is reinforcing for us to do and act this way because that is really
our best for our survival.
How do we teach this to our children practically one of the most important things
you can do for your children is to be Self-compassionate let your child know
(10:03):
that it's okay to find things hard and that everyone makes mistakes It's okay
to feel sad angry disappointed frustrated,
but that it's not okay to say mean things about yourself It can help to ask
your child what they might say to a friend in the same situation I think it.
Starts by giving them your undivided attention.
(10:23):
And I think we tend to think we do that a lot more than we do in reality,
because life is busy. Life gets in the way. You have other demands.
So much of it is modeling, actually how to listen to people,
how to take turns and have a conversation.
Can we coach them to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and try and figure
out why they did something?
Why do you think so-and-so thought that? Or why do you think they said that?
(10:46):
Things like that really go far in helping them develop their empathy skills
and then get their way to like a compassionate action.
Also critical thinking, too. If you're not initially just jumping to the conclusion,
but you're trying to figure it out. Yeah. I think that would be helpful.
Seems like common sense, modeling kindness, patience, trying not to be judgmental.
But these are so difficult.
(11:07):
You know, everyone thinks that they, oh, well, of course I'm modeling kindness
to my kid. And then, well, that's the thing. Not modeling.
Kindness now is almost like a buzzword. I had a colleague at Stanford who worked in a Washington, D.C.
Public school system, and she said that the children don't have a vocabulary for kindness anymore.
That if you ask them, what does kind mean, being kind mean, they have a very
(11:30):
difficult time actually defining it.
So I think that goes to show you where the level of work is for parenting,
that they're not picking up a lot of these things where it's not being reinforced by society.
So how do we as parents wanting to raise healthy, happy human beings,
how do we do this on a day-to-day basis?
When you're starting with, well, what does kindness mean? And I think so much
(11:52):
is for parenting for us as parents is just what do we choose to focus on?
What are we choosing to talk about with our children on the day-to-day?
Are we asking them to take care of somebody else in our family, in the community?
Do we say, oh, you know, so-and-so looks sad? Or do we say things like that?
Do we point stuff out like that?
(12:12):
Or are we just giving them the phone again? Compassion actually doesn't take
very much time. I think people think, oh, it takes all this time.
It's sort of little adjustments to how you operate and just choosing to be with
one thing at a time and not trying to do too much, but making an intention to
focus on these things that you think that we think are important for our children.
And they really, really are.
(12:33):
I mean, one of the greatest benefits of compassion for our kids is that people
who practice compassion, they generally have less anxiety and depression. depression.
And I mean, this is just such a crazy large problem right now with our adolescents.
Maybe the time aspect of it is because we're all thinking that compassion is
reserved for the big suffering.
You know what I mean? So maybe that's where the time, like, I don't have enough time to take that on.
(12:58):
I think we tend to make a lot of assumptions with our children and we do a lot of judging.
And I think just being mindful of that and trying to replace some of our assumptions
and and judging with just curiosity and asking our children like, oh, really?
Why would you say that? Why do you think that? It's just teach yourself not
to assume or go right into a judging mode, to just be able to pause and respond
(13:21):
instead of react and just ask.
That's key to making a really good case.
I also find like when you step back and you ask the question instead of just
assuming, it also alleviates your suffering because then you understand the situation better.
Like I remember one time my daughter, when she was younger, would try on a dress
and she was like, I look fat. And she was like three.
(13:41):
So I like immediately from the other room, I was like, oh, I was like,
oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.
And I just kind of like took a minute and I was like, well, what do you mean
by that? You know, where'd you hear that?
And she's like, oh, no, like the dress shape makes me look like a square.
I look like a fat square. Like, so she wasn't coming from it from the perspective of an adult at all.
And so, like, I got myself all worked up when really when I just asked the question, she answered it.
(14:02):
And I was like, oh, OK, like, I don't have to we don't have to have this conversation right now.
So I could see how even if you think like, I don't have the time to figure out
why this kid is saying this right now, like you essentially are doing yourself
a favor by understanding it better. Right.
Ultimate, you will have less stress in the long run. Right.
Worrying that, what have I done? We tend to beat ourselves up.
What have I done that my child is thinking that they're fat? Yes, exactly.
(14:25):
My three-year-old. It's crazy. crazy.
One of the most interesting studies I've read recently was a Dutch study.
They studied like 900 families and they it was trying to figure out what about
mindful parenting was so beneficial to children.
And they came down to it. We all came down to self-compassion,
that children who had self-compassionate parents did better, were happier.
(14:49):
You know, all those things we've been talking about.
And it's just really interesting that it really did come down to self-compassion.
It's all about modeling.
Kids, you can say one thing, but they will do what they have seen you do time and time again.
I think one of the easiest tips is try to bring back dinner time where you're
not watching TV, you don't have phones out, where you're fully present and focusing
on each other, really listening and modeling how to have a conversation.
(15:13):
Instead of defaulting to asking about grades, aim for something different.
So perhaps ask them, how are you feeling today?
What was the best part of your day? What was the hardest?
Specifically ask them how someone in their class or their friend is doing.
So how is X doing today? Were you kind today?
Try to share with them some of the things that you did today that were kind.
(15:35):
Questions such as these help nurture the empathy, caring, and compassion that exists inside them.
What are we talking about? 15, 20 minutes, half hour, if you're really talking, a day.
And using that time to model compassion for your children, how to make a connection
with another human being, how to not judge another human being too quickly,
how to ask more probing questions to deepen the bond.
(15:58):
To me, that's very doable and a very realistic goal for people to do.
Like, you know, even just to say five nights a week, we're going to have dinner.
Even if you have older children and your week is a mess, maybe it's Saturday,
Sunday we do it. Just to be realistic, this is what we can achieve.
You're right. I feel like it's an attainable goal. But I also feel like for
our generation of parents, this idea, not that we didn't have dinnertime without
(16:21):
phones when I was a kid, but like my parents weren't really asking me probing questions.
You know, like the relationship between parents and children now is so different
that we're even thinking that we should be doing these things.
So I think having this conversation with you is so important because a lot of
us just weren't brought up with these skills.
You know, it wasn't my truth. It was like, how was your day?
Good? Great. Great. It was a different kind of love. Yeah.
(16:43):
Yeah. I will say, though, it's important to recognize if you're going to have
these conversations with your children, you want a real connection.
You're going to get real answers from them. Can you handle it?
Can you handle it? Yeah. That they might tell you they're not happy today.
Yes. And can you accept that? OK, that's normal.
You know, we tend to want to alleviate our children's pain as quickly as possible
(17:03):
instead of having a wider perspective on it, that they will feel sad sometimes.
They're They're going to have a hard day sometimes.
And that's a crucial element. It's crucial for them to learn how to cope with
their emotions and how to ultimately be a more compassionate human being.
If they don't have those experiences or you're constantly trying to move them
off them too quickly and they don't have time to sit with them and learn from
(17:25):
them, it's going to be much harder for them to be more compassionate to another.
And not even compassionate, like capable at dealing with life.
Just things are not always going to go their way. And, you know,
if they can learn how to be more self-compassionate and handle those things
better and accept that these emotions are going to happen, but it doesn't mean
I'm a failure. It just means I'm having a bad day.
(17:46):
That's a really important tool. And I don't think, again, I don't want to speak
for an entire generation of millennials, but like I wasn't really taught that,
you know, it was kind of like, oh, I'll figure it out at some point.
Yeah. I had a son who was very like a lot of questions.
Yeah. And some of those meals, yeah, you were like, oh.
Is this going to ever end? You know, it is OK to tell them mommy's tired today. Right.
(18:10):
That's OK. Sometimes. Yeah. There's a lot of research coming out.
Kids don't want their parents to be perfect. They don't need you to be perfect.
They actually need you. They need to know that nobody's perfect.
It's so important for them for their success in life overall to know that not
everyone's perfect and that's OK. So it's okay for mom, dad to say,
I'm sorry, or oops, I made a mistake on that one.
(18:32):
Or, you know, when you make mistakes, and you will, and I know we want to get
to talk about self-compassion, is to be okay.
Like, oh, you know, I'm sorry. I was so upset and I lost my temper.
It's not shameful to go there. I made a mistake because they learn then that
they can make mistakes and that it's okay.
It's okay. You just own up to it and you try to be better. Yeah.
What about compassion fatigue?
(18:53):
Danford would say that compassion fatigue is a misnomer and that the actual
correct term is empathic distress.
Empathy and compassion are different parts of the brain. Compassion is actually
rejuvenating, whereas empathy can be draining. So the better term is empathic distress.
And it is a legit concern. It sounds more mystical, empathic distress. I guess.
I have some extra sensory powers. But it's definitely some people have a tendency
(19:19):
to take on the emotions of others.
And that's something certain people have to learn how to cope with.
Just tell me how to cope with it, Jennifer.
Forget some people. Just tell me. Well, listeners, just mute for the next 30
seconds. And this is just for me.
Self-compassion and self-awareness are key. In this, whether you struggle with
(19:41):
empathic distress or you have different struggles with being a parent,
you really have to be kinder to yourself.
And we were saying before that self-compassion is just so essential to parenting.
Parenting is a really difficult job. We tend to do nothing but be really,
really hard on ourselves and constantly point out to ourselves that we're falling
(20:01):
short. And this is very counterproductive.
Research has shown that a parent's level of self-compassion is directly tied
to an an adolescent's level of well-being.
You know, when parents model kindness and non-judgment towards themselves,
adolescents imitate this, which thus will really reduce their anxiety and depression.
So if they're constantly looking at mom or dad beating themselves up,
(20:22):
not being kind to themselves, their stress goes up. And they start to do that to themselves.
Outwardly, right? Because I feel like I'm pretty good at masking it.
I'll just lay in bed at night and beat myself up in my own head.
You could tell yourself that, but I don't know.
I would I'm not hiding it as well as me. I don't know.
It's most likely that it's coming out in little ways, whether a little bit of
(20:45):
irritation, lack of patience, things of that sort.
But, you know, and I just want to back up a little bit, you know,
there's a flow to compassion.
So, for example, we give compassion like to our children and others in our community,
for example, right? But then we have also this element of receiving compassion.
And you might be good at one, but not as good at the other. And that's not uncommon.
And then there's also inner compassion. That's the self-compassion piece that
(21:07):
we're talking about, which is giving compassion to ourselves when we are in
pain and suffering. And again, we're not talking about pain and suffering as
this grandiose, horrible life event.
We're just talking about every day, the pain, everyday pain and suffering of
being human in this world.
So it's important to just think of it, I think, that there's three different
ways of compassion that we might be really, some might be easier for us than others.
(21:32):
I will say that self-compassion, particularly in the United States,
we tend to have a really averse reaction to it.
In my experience, when you say the word and everyone's almost like uniformly goes, yuck.
Is it kind of in the same bucket as like self-care now? Like everybody's like, oh, self-care.
And you're like, I don't have time for a massage today when really that's not
(21:53):
what it is. Self-care is important, but self-compassion and self-care are not the same thing.
If we look at self-compassion, self-compassion is made up of like three different parts.
So the first part is like what we would call a kindness.
What is your inner talk like to yourself? Research shows we tend to be very
critical of ourselves and that if people listen to what we were saying to ourselves
in our head, we would be talking to ourselves like in a way we wouldn't even
(22:16):
talk to like our worst enemy.
That we're just crazy mean to ourselves.
But I feel like it's frame of reference. It's the constant comparison that I'm not doing enough.
Well, that's it. You know, it's the internal monologue of like,
I'm never doing enough or I'm doing too much.
I think we're also taught we feel like we're going to lose our edge if we're nice to ourselves, too.
Yeah. So I think there's I think it comes from various places.
(22:39):
But the thing you need to know is that if you're self-critical,
it's just going to make you feel inadequate and insecure, which is going to make you less patient.
And you're just going to end up taking out frustrations on people closest.
So ultimately, it's counterproductive. This is like annoying to me.
Because like, I really feel like I've done so much work to be so much kinder to myself.
(23:00):
But what you're saying is like, all these outward signs are kind of proving
that like the work is not done. You know what I mean? The work is never done.
I mean, that's the thing with compassion.
If you, being compassionate is fundamental to being human. So it's part of like, it's constant.
It's not a one and done. It's a way of operating. It's a way of existing. It's never done.
(23:22):
You know, you might as well just get the Britney Spears song in your head. Oops, I did it again.
Because it's just kind of how it is. That's just being realistic about being
human and just the nature of existence.
You know, so self-kindness is a key part of self-compassion.
The other parts are common humanity.
That to remind, we talk a lot, just we keep saying it over and over again.
(23:44):
It's to be human, to be human.
This is this idea of common humanity. It reminds us that we're not alone in the world.
Our lot is to suffer. This is part of our existence.
We all make mistakes. We all have our weaknesses and our failures.
This is a normal part of everyone's life. And it's a certain level of comfort
in remembering this because we tend to look at everyone's perfect online life as one example.
(24:10):
Example and the other part is just is mindfulness so
those those three main keys of self-compassion and
mindfulness again it's not a relaxation technique it's not
nothing like that it's a word that sort of has taken on all these different
meanings but mindfulness is simply the ability to keep your attention on what
your present moment experience without getting too caught up in your thoughts
(24:32):
in your head and your judgment and it's a fundamental part of self-compassion
but all of these three elements.
Can you just break them down again? Self-being kind to yourself,
recognizing your common humanity, and mindfulness, that ability to keep your
attention on your present moment experience.
Without getting caught up with everything that's going on in your mind.
(24:55):
That is really key to what we're talking about. That's it. The answer to everything.
You heard it here. I guess we have no more questions. She just basically told
us how to solve every problem.
So essentially, if you want your kids to be compassionate, good,
helpful human beings, it really has to start with you. It has to start with you.
(25:19):
And it starts with learning to be nice to yourself.
And your children will learn that by watching you do it.
And it is very, in our modern world, with comparison online,
it's very easy for them to get, pick up habits of not being very nice to themselves
and being overly self-critical.
And I think that's part of the reason we see this, you know,
(25:40):
crazy high anxiety and depression levels in teens, especially.
Thankfully, Jennifer has put together a very nice list of resources and references.
We will have them on our resource guide that will be available online at our.
Music.
Website, adventuresinparentingpml.podbean.com, along with our other resource guides.
So thank you again to Jennifer for joining us today. Thank you so much,
(26:02):
Jennifer. Thanks for letting us derail you.
How lucky are we to work for Jennifer? Yes, seriously.
This is our boss, folks, so can you imagine how great the culture is here?
But if you liked our podcast today, please let your friends and family know and us.
We would love to hear from you with your thoughts on upcoming topics you want
to learn about or just general feedback.
You can email us at podcast at P-M-L-I-B dot org.
(26:26):
Awesome. Check out our website for all of our upcoming events here at the library.
And yeah, stop by, see us, talk to us.
Music.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.