Canadian Accident Investigations: Interview with TSB Chair Yoan Marier

In aviation, we learn from the past to build a safer future. One of the most effective ways we do that is through accident investigation—identifying contributing factors to reform processes, designs, and policies to prevent similar accidents from happening again.     ALPA president Capt. Jason Ambrosi interviews Transportation Safety Board of Canada Chair Yoan Marier about how the board investigates accidents and incidents and develops recommendations in Canada.  

Episode Transcript

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I'm Jason Ambrosi.
.333333333We're coming to you from the 69th ALPA Air Safety Forum as part of a series of episodes we recorded here featuring industry leaders and experts on safety and security across our industry. 4 00:00:16,243.333333333 --> 00:00:23,383.333333333 Today, we're taking a different approach, turning the microphone around to hear from someone who's been watching our industry from the outside. 5 00:00:24,223.333333333 --> 00:00:25,483.333333333 Joining me today is Elan Head. 6 00:00:26,353.333333333 --> 00:00:31,393.333333333 Senior editor with The Air Current while we pilots live and breathe aviation every day. 7 00:00:31,783.333333333 --> 00:00:44,203.333333333 Elan brings a unique perspective observing the trends, challenges, and transformations shaping our industry through the lens of someone who asks the tough questions and holds our industry accountable. 8 00:00:45,373.333333333 --> 00:00:46,783.333333333 Today we're flipping the script. 9 00:00:46,903.333333333 --> 00:00:52,963.333333333 Instead of defending our positions or explaining our perspectives, we want to understand how our industry looks from the press box. 10 00:00:53,683.333333333 --> 00:01:13,813.333333333 What stories are capturing attention? What emerging issues should we be paying closer attention to? And perhaps most notably, what trends are the media seeing that might not yet be on the pilot's radar? Ilan, welcome to the podcast and before we jump in, tell us about yourself and about your publication, the Air Current. 11 00:01:14,293.333333333 --> 00:01:14,623.333333333 Great. 12 00:01:14,653.333333333 --> 00:01:15,373.333333333 thank you for having. 13 00:01:15,373.333333333 --> 00:01:15,553.333333333 Me. 14 00:01:16,163.333333333 --> 00:01:24,203.333333333 so I occupy a bit of a unique role because even though I am a journalist as my day job, I'm also a pilot. 15 00:01:24,203.333333333 --> 00:01:26,483.333333333 and have worked professionally as a pilot in the past. 16 00:01:27,23.333333333 --> 00:01:38,143.8671875 So I started my career as a newspaper reporter and freelance writer, and at some point I got into travel writing and actually luxury travel writing, which was a nice gig. 17 00:01:38,495.271156478 --> 00:01:43,385.27115648 And when I was on one of those assignments in British Columbia, I went for my first helicopter ride. 18 00:01:43,775.27115648 --> 00:01:45,935.27115648 I thought it was the most amazing thing I'd ever done. 19 00:01:45,935.27115648 --> 00:01:49,505.27115648 So I went home and signed up for lessons and I became a helicopter pilot. 20 00:01:49,655.27115648 --> 00:01:49,805.27115648 Alright. 21 00:01:49,895.27115648 --> 00:01:51,185.27115648 And A flight instructor. 22 00:01:51,185.27115648 --> 00:01:51,760.27115648 And so that was too. 23 00:01:51,780.27115648 --> 00:01:52,320.27115648 That's cool. 24 00:01:52,430.27115648 --> 00:01:52,720.27115648 Yeah. 25 00:01:52,840.27115648 --> 00:01:54,725.27115648 So that was my entry into aviation. 26 00:01:55,412.85270301 --> 00:02:02,312.85270301 and as I was, you know, learning to fly and beginning to work in the industry, like any good freelance writer, I was always looking for stories. 27 00:02:02,372.85270301 --> 00:02:08,843.62093218 And so that's when I started writing about aviation, initially about helicopters specifically, and eventually fell. 28 00:02:08,843.62093218 --> 00:02:10,883.62093218 Into doing that again full-time. 29 00:02:11,483.62093218 --> 00:02:18,293.62093218 so I was the editor of Vertical Magazine, which is a helicopter magazine for many years and had some amazing opportunities there. 30 00:02:18,953.62093218 --> 00:02:36,62.95686968 Uh, about 20 16, 20 17 when, electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft or evals started becoming a thing, I started covering those, uh, natural progression in the vertical lift industry and became really fascinated with the space and with all of the emerging. 31 00:02:36,62.95686968 --> 00:02:39,559.81884884 Technologies that brought together and began to focus on that. 32 00:02:39,979.81884884 --> 00:02:53,169.81884884 and about three and a half years ago, I moved over to the Air Current, which is a subscription aviation publication where we do a lot of really In depth stories, a lot of technical stories, which is fun for me to be able to do some of those deeper dives. 33 00:02:53,449.81884884 --> 00:02:54,709.81884884 but I do still write helicopter. 34 00:02:54,709.81884884 --> 00:02:56,59.81884884 stories for vertical Magazine. 35 00:02:56,59.81884884 --> 00:02:59,349.81884884 So do you get to fly helicopters at all I do not enough. 36 00:02:59,919.81884884 --> 00:03:03,939.81884884 so uh, whenever, Whenever I get the chance, Alright, very all very good. 37 00:03:04,369.81884884 --> 00:03:05,269.81884884 let's jump in. 38 00:03:06,79.81884884 --> 00:03:33,550.20947384 How has your view of aviation changed since you started reporting on it? So, this is interesting because, uh, you know, again, I started reporting on aviation essentially when I started learning how to fly And I think like most new pilots, when I was learning how to fly, I was just so excited about everything and I was like a sponge and I was just soaking up everything that I was exposed to in the flight school and in the larger industry. 39 00:03:34,5.39176551 --> 00:03:40,190.39176551 And, not really examining that critically, just like, yeah, tell me, let me have it. 40 00:03:40,190.39176551 --> 00:03:41,100.39176551 Like, this is great. 41 00:03:41,520.39176551 --> 00:03:47,490.39176551 but because I did start reporting about aviation, fairly early on, I did have exposure to a lot of. 42 00:03:47,490.39176551 --> 00:03:50,280.39176551 Different people in the industry and a lot of different ideas. 43 00:03:50,610.39176551 --> 00:03:55,145.39176551 And I started to more critically examine the industry and how it worked. 44 00:03:55,545.39176551 --> 00:04:03,705.39176551 and especially so as time went on and as is typical in aviation, as more of my friends started dying in airplane And helicopter crashes. 45 00:04:04,45.39176551 --> 00:04:12,655.39176551 then that really led me to, examine some of these, assumptions, that I had, taken for granted earlier in my career and start thinking. 46 00:04:13,30.39176551 --> 00:04:15,790.39176551 More critically about how aviation works as a system. 47 00:04:16,270.39176551 --> 00:04:24,190.39176551 And so in some ways I feel like my reporting career has been systematically unpacking all of the myths I learned in flight school. 48 00:04:24,370.39176551 --> 00:04:33,630.39176551 Especially when it comes to, you know, safety related topics and I think the biggest one of those is that, it's always up to pilots and it's always the pilot's fault. 49 00:04:33,960.39176551 --> 00:04:43,150.39176551 And I think that when you're learning how to fly, there is a rationale for taking that type of approach because, as pilot in command, you need to feel confident. 50 00:04:43,150.39176551 --> 00:04:48,80.39176551 You need to, have the toolkit to be able to handle any situation that comes your way. 51 00:04:48,593.82926551 --> 00:05:00,388.82926551 but when you step back, there's a lot of things in the industry that, you know, pilots are not directly responsible for in terms of, what type of safety equipment is on their aircraft when they get it. 52 00:05:00,398.82926551 --> 00:05:03,618.82926551 and so as I started, seeing the bigger picture. 53 00:05:03,718.82926551 --> 00:05:06,438.82926551 I think that really changed how I thought about. 54 00:05:06,438.82926551 --> 00:05:07,758.82926551 Aviation in general. 55 00:05:07,963.82926551 --> 00:05:08,263.82926551 Wow. 56 00:05:08,263.82926551 --> 00:05:09,353.82926551 That's, that's good to hear. 57 00:05:09,353.82926551 --> 00:05:19,533.82926551 Right? Everybody likes to point the finger at the pilot right away, so I know my members will be happy to hear that, that, there are people out there that say, Hey, let's wait a minute and look at all the facts that are involved. 58 00:05:19,573.82926551 --> 00:05:29,333.82926551 is that the biggest misconception that public has about our industry, or is there something else that you would say the public has about the aviation industry? So I think that is, definitely part of it. 59 00:05:29,333.82926551 --> 00:05:40,583.82926551 I think this myth around pilots and that focus on blaming the pilot does bleed over into a lot of the mainstream media and mainstream reporting and to the public perception of pilots. 60 00:05:40,683.82926551 --> 00:05:43,743.82926551 just because that stereotype is so entrenched in the industry. 61 00:05:43,743.82926551 --> 00:05:46,953.82926551 So, you know, certainly I think that is a big misconception. 62 00:05:47,363.82926551 --> 00:05:51,473.82926551 I think also the general public just has no idea how incredibly. 63 00:05:51,473.82926551 --> 00:06:04,153.82926551 Complex the industry is, and there's so much nuance to how the system functions and how it operates, that you just have no idea about unless you know you are really exposed to it constantly and study it. 64 00:06:04,513.82926551 --> 00:06:06,983.82926551 So I think, that's a big misconception. 65 00:06:06,983.82926551 --> 00:06:18,353.82926551 And then also the public doesn't really understand the regulatory framework that allows for different types of operations as well from, you know, the part 1 21 or part 1 35 Or part 91. 66 00:06:18,403.82926551 --> 00:06:19,243.82926551 so I think there's a lot. 67 00:06:19,243.82926551 --> 00:06:20,383.82926551 Of confusion around that. 68 00:06:20,388.82926551 --> 00:06:20,628.82926551 Yeah. 69 00:06:20,698.82926551 --> 00:06:24,713.82926551 and I'll say at ALPA, that's been our mission, right? Is schedule with safety. 70 00:06:24,713.82926551 --> 00:06:32,123.82926551 That, that we want the traveling public or the shipping public to feel like when they get on an airplane, it's safe. 71 00:06:32,273.82926551 --> 00:06:33,263.82926551 It's gonna be safe. 72 00:06:33,263.82926551 --> 00:06:34,613.82926551 And they know it's gonna be safe. 73 00:06:34,643.82926551 --> 00:06:37,283.82926551 'cause of the hard work the pilots do, the regulators do and everything. 74 00:06:37,283.82926551 --> 00:06:39,203.82926551 But that is hard work behind the scenes. 75 00:06:39,233.82926551 --> 00:06:45,733.82926551 'cause they don't know all the nuance and all the hard work that goes into keeping it as the safest mode of transportation in the world. 76 00:06:47,443.82926551 --> 00:06:58,414.49332801 So what's the most un under-reported story right now in aviation? So I think there's a lot of under-reported stories hiding within the over-reported stories. 77 00:06:58,694.49332801 --> 00:07:03,824.49332801 and, you know, just continuing this, uh, theme of blaming the pilot or blaming the individual. 78 00:07:04,44.49332801 --> 00:07:06,84.49332801 I know that we at the air current were very. 79 00:07:06,84.49332801 --> 00:07:16,649.57145301 dismayed by some of the mainstream coverage around like the DCA crash, and the focus on the actions of, the individual helicopter pilots or the individual controller. 80 00:07:16,904.57145301 --> 00:07:25,944.57145301 And I think, you know, part of that is again, some kind of preconceived ideas about, who's ultimately responsible, how safety works. 81 00:07:26,284.57145301 --> 00:07:30,304.57145301 and I think part of it too is that it's just easier to tell. 82 00:07:30,604.57145301 --> 00:07:35,84.57145301 Stories about people than it is to tell very abstract stories about, system. 83 00:07:35,84.57145301 --> 00:07:38,284.57145301 safety and Some of these more difficult concepts to wrestle with. 84 00:07:38,314.57145301 --> 00:07:48,414.57145301 So I think, that's an example of a story that has been told a lot and yet I think the real story of some of those systemic issues has not really been reported yet. 85 00:07:48,414.57145301 --> 00:07:51,613.89436968 And that's something that we're working on the year current as well, for sure. 86 00:07:51,713.89436968 --> 00:07:57,773.89436968 but I also wanna give a shout out to my colleague Will, Guisbond, who has been doing some terrific reporting. 87 00:07:58,163.89436968 --> 00:07:59,573.89436968 Around FAA funding. 88 00:07:59,623.89436968 --> 00:08:08,338.89436968 at the conference here in the labor panel, like we heard that one risk to aviation right now is this looming risk of a government shutdown. 89 00:08:08,504.49332801 --> 00:08:22,584.49332801 And so I think what Will has done really a good job of is explain, what is the problem with a stop and start funding for the FAA and how does it affect safety? And I would love to see more people pick up that story and run with it. 90 00:08:22,864.49332801 --> 00:08:28,294.49332801 So that the public and lawmakers understand the consequences of this Stop and start funding. 91 00:08:28,544.42822384 --> 00:08:31,324.42822384 I'm glad that more folks are bringing light to that threat. 92 00:08:31,324.42822384 --> 00:08:31,834.42822384 Of course. 93 00:08:33,214.42822384 --> 00:08:44,649.42822384 Are there any emerging issues that you're tracking that pilots should be maybe more aware of that you we're not paying attention to? So I will say that I learned about one of these issues on my panel this morning. 94 00:08:44,649.42822384 --> 00:08:46,359.42822384 So I moderated a panel on. 95 00:08:46,359.42822384 --> 00:08:52,989.42822384 integrating New entrants into the aerospace system and I really learned a lot about commercial space operations. 96 00:08:53,259.42822384 --> 00:08:58,89.42822384 So that is something that as a helicopter pilot, I hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to. 97 00:08:58,89.42822384 --> 00:08:58,689.42822384 in the past. 98 00:08:58,794.42822384 --> 00:09:00,819.42822384 more time close to the ground, don't we? Yeah. 99 00:09:00,869.42822384 --> 00:09:03,649.42822384 but obviously this is something that ALPA is tracking. 100 00:09:03,649.42822384 --> 00:09:10,949.42822384 And I'm starting to appreciate how it is, a major concern, for airline operations and for the traveling public. 101 00:09:10,949.42822384 --> 00:09:13,349.42822384 And it's certainly something that I'm gonna be tracking more. 102 00:09:13,349.42822384 --> 00:09:14,369.42822384 closely Going forward. 103 00:09:14,747.32822384 --> 00:09:15,24.42822384 Forward. 104 00:09:15,29.42822384 --> 00:09:15,239.42822384 Yeah. 105 00:09:15,239.42822384 --> 00:09:21,112.76155718 It used to be, uh, not that long ago, there was only one launch every what month or two, three, that kind of thing. 106 00:09:21,112.76155718 --> 00:09:23,822.76155718 And now we're getting to the point where they're gonna be far more frequent. 107 00:09:23,822.76155718 --> 00:09:29,162.76155718 I'm glad our team is on it and that, that it's now getting more awareness in the media and the general public. 108 00:09:31,472.76155718 --> 00:09:33,902.76155718 We've talked in the past about reduced crew operations. 109 00:09:34,112.76155718 --> 00:09:37,482.76155718 it's being driven in large part by future technologies. 110 00:09:37,602.76155718 --> 00:10:01,437.76155718 Are there any emerging technologies today that you see having a real, impact on our industry? So one area of technology that I think is really interesting and where we haven't necessarily seen the impact yet, but I think we're poised to see an impact is in the development of flight controls for these eval aircraft and highly. 111 00:10:01,437.76155718 --> 00:10:02,577.76155718 Automated aircraft. 112 00:10:02,967.76155718 --> 00:10:08,407.76155718 And this is, a really fascinating issue to me and something that I've been covering and tracking closely. 113 00:10:08,837.76155718 --> 00:10:16,647.76155718 but the interesting thing about VTOLs is, have all these different designs that are enabled by distributed electric propulsion. 114 00:10:16,677.76155718 --> 00:10:25,77.76155718 And you have, propellers all over the place and so many of them that it's, just not possible for any pilot to control them manually. 115 00:10:25,437.76155718 --> 00:10:32,367.76155718 So you need these fly-by-wire systems and they need to be highly automated and in many cases, highly augmented. 116 00:10:33,362.76155718 --> 00:10:39,682.76155718 with that as a basis, there's really a blank sheet for designers to come up with. 117 00:10:39,682.76155718 --> 00:10:45,952.76155718 how are we going to control this aircraft? And so because of that, you've seen a lot of experimentation in this space. 118 00:10:46,282.76155718 --> 00:10:55,107.76155718 So some of these evals and development, they have, a single control stick and everything is integrated into that single in scepter. 119 00:10:55,287.76155718 --> 00:11:01,707.76155718 And Then you have some e VTOLs that have unified flight controls similar to what you see on the F 35. 120 00:11:02,247.76155718 --> 00:11:08,787.76155718 So there's just a tremendous variety of flight control designs out there and a lot of experimentation. 121 00:11:08,937.76155718 --> 00:11:13,527.76155718 And the industry hasn't really converged on what is the best way to control these aircraft. 122 00:11:13,922.76155718 --> 00:11:23,112.76155718 And what's interesting about that is it starts to blur the boundaries of what aircraft are in terms of categories. 123 00:11:23,382.76155718 --> 00:11:31,42.76155718 And A lot of pilot training and qualification to date has been based on this fact that, most airplanes fly like airplanes. 124 00:11:31,312.76155718 --> 00:11:33,502.76155718 Most helicopters fly like helicopters. 125 00:11:33,502.76155718 --> 00:11:34,732.76155718 Never the twain shall meet. 126 00:11:35,242.76155718 --> 00:11:48,502.76155718 And when you start, decoupling flight control from, how the aircraft flies, then that raises all kinds of interesting questions around pilot certification and how useful. 127 00:11:48,502.76155718 --> 00:11:51,472.76155718 is This concept of aircraft categories to begin with. 128 00:11:51,802.76155718 --> 00:12:03,667.76155718 So I think that's something that is really poised to, to disrupt the industry because you're starting to see people developing these new flight control schemes, not just for eVTOLs, but also for conventional aircraft. 129 00:12:03,667.76155718 --> 00:12:11,587.76155718 So there's companies out there like skyrise that are developing these systems and installing them in helicopters, but they could also be installed in airplanes. 130 00:12:11,947.76155718 --> 00:12:16,817.76155718 So just a question of how are aircraft going to be flown in the future is quite interesting to me. 131 00:12:17,227.76155718 --> 00:12:17,707.76155718 Yeah, it is. 132 00:12:17,757.76155718 --> 00:12:32,427.76155718 But on the opposite side of that, are there any technologies on the horizon that, that as a pilot yourself, give you pause or concern or should as an airline passenger? So there are certainly a lot of technologies that I'm skeptical of. 133 00:12:32,877.76155718 --> 00:12:41,957.76155718 And So I think Some of that came across, yesterday I, moderated a panel on AI and aviation and, we talked a lot about artificial intelligence and. 134 00:12:41,957.76155718 --> 00:12:57,942.76155718 Specifically machine learning and how difficult it is to, guarantee that technology or that machine learning model is going to give you an accurate result, which, may not matter in some cases when you're searching for a pizza recipe. 135 00:12:58,182.76155718 --> 00:13:00,702.76155718 but It may matter a whole lot on aircraft. 136 00:13:00,942.76155718 --> 00:13:07,622.76155718 And so, while I think that there's some, half baked and not ready for primetime technologies out there. 137 00:13:07,892.76155718 --> 00:13:12,212.76155718 I have to say that I actually have a lot of faith in our certification system. 138 00:13:12,262.76155718 --> 00:13:16,732.76155718 you know, aircraft certification is not perfect and mistakes slip through. 139 00:13:17,212.76155718 --> 00:13:27,102.76155718 But I think in general our industry has a lot of guardrails to prevent the premature adoption of some of these technologies, that other industries don't. 140 00:13:27,462.76155718 --> 00:13:31,32.76155718 So personally, I'm grateful for that, and I think that's something that we should fight. 141 00:13:31,92.76155718 --> 00:13:32,545.17522994 To preserve those standards. 142 00:13:32,595.17522994 --> 00:13:33,615.17522994 yeah, I'd echo that. 143 00:13:33,645.17522994 --> 00:13:38,115.17522994 I hear regularly, oh, our in industry is painfully slow at adopting new stuff. 144 00:13:38,635.17522994 --> 00:13:40,875.17522994 we're also the safest mode of transportation in the world. 145 00:13:40,875.17522994 --> 00:13:48,735.17522994 So there's being slow and deliberate is intentional so that we get it right and we don't rush into something that we wish we hadn't done later. 146 00:13:49,20.17522994 --> 00:14:14,265.17522994 And I think, going back to this idea that there's different levels of risk, acceptable risk, and different types of operations, that does create the opportunity to experiment with some of these new technologies and like those lower risk operations or even un crewed operations and test it out there first before we slowly, start working up the safety continuum, which is a foundational principle of certification for the FAA. 147 00:14:14,680.17522994 --> 00:14:15,670.17522994 Uh, absolutely. 148 00:14:16,180.17522994 --> 00:14:18,760.17522994 You're a pilot, you cover pilot related stories. 149 00:14:19,596.8418966 --> 00:14:33,905.17522994 What do you wish more people understood about what pilots do? So I think that the general public maybe has a bit of a split viewpoint on how they think about pilots. 150 00:14:33,905.17522994 --> 00:14:37,565.17522994 And in one sense, they think of pilots as you know. 151 00:14:37,595.17522994 --> 00:14:43,270.17522994 Super human beings, who, do heroic things and aren't we? of course. 152 00:14:44,40.17522994 --> 00:14:47,970.17522994 but, and then a lot of times in the same breath they'll, dismiss pilots. 153 00:14:47,970.17522994 --> 00:14:52,670.17522994 as like just bus drivers and try to explain to you, they don't even fly the plane these days. 154 00:14:52,670.17522994 --> 00:14:53,840.17522994 It's all on autopilot. 155 00:14:53,840.17522994 --> 00:14:59,260.17522994 And so there's this kind of, I dunno, schizophrenic view of what it is a pilot. 156 00:14:59,680.17522994 --> 00:15:02,655.17522994 And I think I'd like more people to appreciate. 157 00:15:02,965.17522994 --> 00:15:10,135.17522994 the professionalism of being a pilot and what it means to be a professional, which is, a generally normal person. 158 00:15:10,135.17522994 --> 00:15:13,705.17522994 I'm not gonna say that pilots are completely normal, but, they. 159 00:15:13,980.17522994 --> 00:15:14,460.17522994 oh, I'll take it, I'll take it. 160 00:15:14,735.17522994 --> 00:15:33,575.17522994 Basically normal, puts just a ton of time and effort into learning very difficult skills and increasing their knowledge and their ability to react to events and that professionalism and the dedication To being able to do something difficult in a very disciplined way. 161 00:15:33,815.17522994 --> 00:15:38,195.17522994 I think that's something that a lot of people don't understand about what it means to be a pilot. 162 00:15:38,655.17522994 --> 00:15:38,955.17522994 Yeah. 163 00:15:38,955.17522994 --> 00:15:39,255.17522994 Yeah. 164 00:15:39,305.17522994 --> 00:15:40,320.17522994 I couldn't have said that better. 165 00:15:40,420.17522994 --> 00:15:52,728.17002161 All right, so looking forward, what story or issue are you most eager to follow or, see in the coming year? The great thing about my job is that there are so many interesting stories. 166 00:15:52,728.17002161 --> 00:15:57,888.17002161 I never run out of things to write about, and I have, a to-do list of stories. 167 00:15:57,888.17002161 --> 00:16:06,868.17002161 that's, about 30, 30 stories long, which I'll get to most of them eventually, since I've been covering the e Vito industry for a long time now. 168 00:16:06,918.17002161 --> 00:16:10,608.17002161 certainly I would love to see one of those aircraft actually certified. 169 00:16:10,908.17002161 --> 00:16:16,398.17002161 I don't think it's gonna happen in the coming year, so, we'll, we'll put that one off for a future year. 170 00:16:16,428.17002161 --> 00:16:16,458.17002161 Okay. 171 00:16:16,808.86012577 --> 00:16:16,838.86012577 I. 172 00:16:17,48.11793827 --> 00:16:30,437.84450077 one thing that I've become increasingly interested in is the crossover of a lot of this emerging technology, and especially a lot of the emerging commercial autonomy technology into the military space. 173 00:16:30,827.84450077 --> 00:16:34,577.84450077 So earlier this year I was in Ukraine writing about Ukraine's. 174 00:16:34,577.84450077 --> 00:17:01,132.8445008 drone industry and it's fascinating and scary to see how that conflict is, driving the weaponization of these small DJI drones that, You know, were previously used to shoot weddings and so I think that there's going to be a lot of interesting convergence of all this technology that's being developed in the commercial world and really terrifying. 175 00:17:01,132.8445008 --> 00:17:02,482.8445008 Military uses for it. 176 00:17:02,752.8445008 --> 00:17:04,582.8445008 So that's something I'll definitely be tracking. 177 00:17:04,922.8445008 --> 00:17:09,362.8445008 Yeah, I know that's, that raises a concern for many of us, so look forward to your reporting on that. 178 00:17:10,196.1778341 --> 00:17:24,875.1231466 maybe before we're done, what would you want our pilot listeners to know about how their industries proceed from the outside? picking up on some of the things we've discussed, again, I think a lot of people just have no idea of how incredibly complex this. 179 00:17:24,875.1231466 --> 00:17:33,545.1231466 Industry is, and they're not going to understand how complex the industry is unless someone really explains that to them. 180 00:17:33,829.8366883 --> 00:17:42,249.8366883 And I think most people, are smart and willing to take that information in and understand it, if it's presented to them. 181 00:17:42,569.2767924 --> 00:17:52,659.2767924 And so I think, something to keep in mind is that we should be willing to go the extra mile to, explain to the public these difficult concepts. 182 00:17:52,659.2767924 --> 00:17:56,619.2767924 Or the complexity of our operations and why it matters. 183 00:17:56,949.2767924 --> 00:18:04,659.2767924 And, I think it's worth putting in the effort to, explain that in a way that people understand why it's important. 184 00:18:05,44.2767924 --> 00:18:06,34.2767924 I couldn't agree more. 185 00:18:06,454.2767924 --> 00:18:15,294.2767924 You mentioned this a little earlier in our discussion that, something about the autopilot and Members of the public to think, oh, all they do is just turn on the autopilot. 186 00:18:16,14.2767924 --> 00:18:27,214.2767924 There is so much more to this profession, and I think that it's essential on my members, to take the time to point that out, that it's not about the sunny day, flying and there's still a lot. 187 00:18:27,844.2767924 --> 00:18:30,124.2767924 A heck of a lot of work to do, even on a sunny day. 188 00:18:30,514.2767924 --> 00:18:40,194.2767924 But when you have rough times and maintenance irregularities or, passenger issues, you're helping the flight attendants deal with a unruly passengers, whatever the situation is. 189 00:18:40,194.2767924 --> 00:18:45,677.6101258 This is a, this is one heck of a, stressful and consuming profession that no one should underplay. 190 00:18:45,687.6101258 --> 00:18:47,97.6101258 that frustrates the heck out of me. 191 00:18:47,127.6101258 --> 00:18:49,452.6101258 So I appreciate your comments on that and. 192 00:18:49,662.6101258 --> 00:19:08,912.6101258 that general theme came up in our AI panel discussion and I think, with this, growing enthusiasm and hype for ai, a lot of people are now thinking, we're probably not that far away from an AI pilot and our AI co-pilot and AI can fly the plane, just as well as a pilot. 193 00:19:08,912.6101258 --> 00:19:09,212.6101258 can. 194 00:19:09,212.6101258 --> 00:19:16,887.6101258 And I think it was Amply discussed and demonstrated yesterday that's just not the case and it's not going to be the case for quite a long time. 195 00:19:16,887.6101258 --> 00:19:19,957.6101258 I, yeah, there's no, I said this in my opening remarks. 196 00:19:19,957.6101258 --> 00:19:28,207.6101258 I'll, I'm sure I'll say it again, on my upcoming panel here, but, there is no replacement for the human pilot. 197 00:19:28,357.6101258 --> 00:19:29,167.6101258 It just isn't there. 198 00:19:29,417.6101258 --> 00:19:35,117.6101258 there may be some things that, there may be some industries out there where you can replace with people, but yeah. 199 00:19:35,657.6101258 --> 00:19:42,77.6101258 Two, well-trained, rested, qualified pilots on the flight deck at all time are absolutely essential because of the way we work together. 200 00:19:42,77.6101258 --> 00:19:46,887.6101258 The way we communicate, the, think about the Alaska 1282 situation. 201 00:19:46,967.6101258 --> 00:19:50,307.6101258 that outcome would've been very different if we would've had, one person in some. 202 00:19:50,877.6101258 --> 00:20:00,277.6101258 AI bot or whatever, I don't even know what it's called, quite frankly, you would know way more than I would, but, look, I'll go down swinging that there, that we bring an invaluable, feature to what we do. 203 00:20:01,22.3497091 --> 00:20:01,352.3497091 Yeah. 204 00:20:01,352.3497091 --> 00:20:10,2.3497091 And I, would not rule out the possibility of technological advancements at some point in the future that, does realize the sci-fi vision. 205 00:20:10,282.3497091 --> 00:20:15,202.3497091 but I can say very confidently based on my understanding of the technology that exists today. 206 00:20:15,502.3497091 --> 00:20:18,282.3497091 We're a long way from that, a really long way away from that. 207 00:20:18,282.3497091 --> 00:20:19,902.3497091 And I will, stand by that. 208 00:20:19,902.3497091 --> 00:20:27,772.3497091 But anyway, I, again, anything else you'd like to let our listeners know? You've got 80,000 pilots, listening right now and it's just cool that we turn to Todd. 209 00:20:27,772.3497091 --> 00:20:30,712.3497091 You'd normally are asking me questions, so this time I'm asking you questions. 210 00:20:30,712.3497091 --> 00:20:36,77.3497091 Anything else you'd want them to hear? Oh, I will say that I've had, just a really awesome time. 211 00:20:36,137.3497091 --> 00:20:37,637.3497091 At the Safety Forum this year. 212 00:20:37,667.3497091 --> 00:20:39,857.3497091 appreciate the opportunity to participate. 213 00:20:39,857.3497091 --> 00:20:47,177.3497091 I've had lots of great productive conversations, and that's gonna lead to a lot more reporting in the months to come. 214 00:20:47,177.3497091 --> 00:20:48,617.3497091 So stay tuned for that. 215 00:20:48,677.3497091 --> 00:20:52,152.3497091 But, yeah, appreciate the opportunity to be here and always happy to help. 216 00:20:52,202.3497091 --> 00:20:52,742.3497091 anytime. 217 00:20:52,742.3497091 --> 00:20:53,642.3497091 Anytime you need. 218 00:20:54,39.0163758 --> 00:20:56,175.6830424 thank you for joining us today, Elan. 219 00:20:56,507.3497091 --> 00:21:02,897.3497091 For this interview and at ALPA's Air Safety Forum, the work you at the air current are doing really matters. 220 00:21:03,227.3497091 --> 00:21:07,397.3497091 Keeping the industry informed and asking the questions that need to be asked. 221 00:21:07,847.3497091 --> 00:21:12,422.3497091 We appreciate having reporters like you who dig deep and keep everyone honest. 222 00:21:13,187.3497091 --> 00:21:17,867.3497091 Thanks for joining us today and I hope we can continue this dialogue and future stories. 223 00:21:19,22.3497091 --> 00:21:22,352.3497091 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Airline Pilot podcast. 224 00:21:22,772.3497091 --> 00:21:26,852.3497091 If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe so that you don't miss any episodes. 225 00:21:27,452.3497091 --> 00:21:30,572.3497091 And if you enjoyed this episode, let your fellow crew members know about the show. 226 00:21:31,742.3497091 --> 00:21:41,252.3497091 If you have any questions or topics that you'd like us to cover, reach out to podcast at ALPA dot org to listen and subscribe to the Airline Pilot podcast, or learn more about ALPA. 227 00:21:41,582.3497091 --> 00:21:46,642.3497091 Check us out online at ALPA dot org or find us on all major podcast platforms. 228 00:21:47,47.3497091 --> 00:21:53,707.3497091 Until next time, this is the Airline Pilot podcast production copyright ALPA 2025, all rights reserved. 229 00:21:53,707.3497091 --> 00:21:55,567.3497091 Thanks, and have a safe flight.