How do I get a job taking care of animals?

We are often asked how to start a career in animal care, and today we are giving insight into traditional and non-traditional pathways to working in this amazing field. Spoiler alert: it’s a lot of hard but rewarding work. Brett Long, Senior Director of Birds/Amphibians/Mammals, joins us to share advice and stories from his decades-long career in animal care and husbandry. 

 

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hi, I'm Erin Lundy.
And I'm Madeline Walden and this is
Aquarium of the Podcific
a podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Podcific Southern California's largest aquarium.
Join us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation and more.
Hello Podcific listeners Madeline here in editing today's episode, I realized that we never fully introduced our guest. So here I am post record to do so today on the podcast we have our senior director of birds, amphibians and mammals. His name is Brett Long. Thanks so much for tuning in.

(00:40):
Welcome back to Aquarium of the Podcific My name is Madeline Walden, I'm the aquariums digital content and community manager.
My name is Erin Lundy. I'm also here, dive the aquariums manager of conservation initiatives.
This is a really cool episode today we have our senior director of birds, amphibians and mammals, well, so many things about animal care careers and animal care. But i i We recorded the episode already. So we're recording this intro post. I really liked that the conversation went more into conservation and the idea of conservation and working in the conservation field. So I think we're gonna tricky with the title that it's about how do I get a job in an aquarium? Or how do I get a job in a facility like this. But I think you're gonna learn so much more on top of it. So I'm excited. I'm Erin, how's it interviewing your boss we talk?

(01:29):
Is your boss. Yeah, I'm funny, because I'm in charge. And he's not in this room. But also, I think it has always been he's been a good example of sort of a nonlinear career path. And I think we keep mentioning that in different episodes. Like, Brooke was a dolphin trainer and now takes care of octopus and we have people who worked in advertising. There is no one way to get into it. And certainly there is the very traditional, tried and true I did a couple internships I volunteered somewhere and I work there now. But Brett's career path is very different. And I think it's interesting to hear how just 10 Gentle exposure to being around animal care can lead you to someday be the Senior Director of birth a

(02:07):
career in animal care, which I think is fascinating. And you're absolutely right. There
is really no linear way to get into this. And I think that's true of every field. But if you are interested in learning about what it's like to work in animal care, and how to get into it, we do get a little piece of advice from Brett at the end there. Stick around. So yeah, it's a really cool interview. Thank you for tuning in and listening. And hopefully this answers some of your burning questions about what it's like to work here. Today we have on a very special guest. He is the senior director of birds, amphibians and mammals here. All of our titles are getting progressively longer the longer that we were carrying. I think mine started out as monologist. And now it is several words long.

(02:51):
So many words.
What did you start as
I started off as the burden manual curator, UCOP,
yours hasn't gotten too much to a couple of words. So you're the Senior Director of birds, amphibians and mammals? Can you describe for us sort of what that means? Sure.
I get to work with a large group of people that provide the daily care for most of our birds, amphibians and mammals.

(03:18):
Like you, just
like me, mostly amphibians, sometimes mammals, occasionally a bird here and there. But you didn't start here at the Aquarium, although you certainly are from Southern California. So what Where did your career start in sort of, how did you get into this?
I sort of fell into it. When I moved away from home, and was following my heart and following a girl, I, I stumbled, I stumbled into an opportunity in Santa Cruz, California, and got to start helping out on a project that was looking at physiology and marine mammals. So

(03:57):
when you were studying physiology, if marine mammals What did that look like?
I think studying probably isn't accurate. You know, I was, was the guy that liked to work or like to fix things and had a knack for working on things and so that the team of people that I worked with, most of them had probably grown up thinking that they were going to either study or work with marine mammals. And, and really were there to focus on that. And I was like, hey, that gate needs to be fixed. Or that truck needs to be weighed, whatever that was, and and it was a cool group of people and it made me look at sort of working with animals differently. And and,

(04:48):
and so I formally volunteered on this project and again, my school or my addition to that project, were really facilities and maintenance and yeah, here learn how to take care of animals on the side.
I'm and then a project, we got funded for a project that required people that could build things, fix things, dry boats, in this case, scuba dive to help maintain something. And so I was offered a paid position before a lot of other people that have been there longer, but because I had focused on some different activities and, and then when I got that paid position, I'm like, Oh, now you really have to learn how to take care of because you don't get to just do one thing. So

(05:36):
So you were sort of pushed into animal care, although your true passion was fixing doors.
I think like a lot of people I certainly grew up with every animal that you could imagine at home, whether it be fish, frogs, dog, cat, tortoise, and a tortoise, right, and a tortoise, a very long lived tortoise. And probably was more at aquarium kid, I that was what and started working in a pet store. It's my first sort of when I'm 1516. And it was all about fish and, and to the point where my family let me dedicate a room in the house, I had my own little mini fish from

(06:15):
his private aquarium were
several in the house distributed, and then the parents redid the whole carpet in the house. So you had to take everything out in one day, right? So you can do the carpet. And they're like, just put them all back in one room. So I had my own room. And so I certainly had an interest in animals or a love for being around them. But I don't know that I thought that was going to be what I spent the next 30 years doing. Certainly,

(06:41):
that wasn't the plan or wasn't. And so from there, which was sort of a research facility, and you were doing primarily those types of things, you went on to do animal care at other places.
Yeah, I mean, super lucky. And that I spent about a third of my time in the field getting to work with some cool species out in their normal environments or natural environments. And about two thirds of my time learning how to care for them sort of in a research setting, because we were studying particular aspects of their physiology. I did that for 10 or 12 years and loved it got a passion sort of for science and data and asking and trying to answer maybe very difficult questions, but then realized that even finding the answers to them didn't mean that other people weren't learning that. And so I had an opportunity to move up to Alaska, at the Alaska sealife Center, which was sort of a hybrid, it was a research facility. So I was still doing the things that I was sort of comfort what I was used to. But it started that open that opportunity to have sort of a guest experience or a visitor experience that was broader than just the research lab that I was working at before. And I think that that that in itself started to sort of drive my interest a little how do you get the story out? How do you engage with people? Can you fix things by peer reviewed journals? I don't think that many people read those. But but maybe finding a way to reach them in other ways. And so I was up in Alaska for 12 or 13 years. Similar work different species a lot of time in the field, loved it. And then realize that, that as many people do, I think I had been away from home away from home. For 2728 years, I had an unbelievable support network with my family all those years and realize maybe it was time for me to move a little close, move a little closer and invest a little bit more in them and had this opportunity to accept a position here at the Korean Pacific. Very

(08:35):
cool. I want to know as someone who has grown up in California, what was the adjustment to living in Alaska, just as a person just in your just in your life. I mean, that's very opposite climates,
Southern California for 19 years, Central California for 15 years. And that Alaska for 12 years. And that central California time really was the adaptation because it's very different very different than Southern California. You got used to cooler I've always been coastal. So there is a

(09:07):
is one trend and it's
coastal. And so certainly Alaska darkness and winter is a thing. It was novel. So I think it was easy to adjust to in that regard. And I loved it. The adjustment back was harder than I really liked it.
We have the excitement of being up there and new. Do everything too much daytime here. It's like when you when you travel your jetlag once you get there, you get over it really quickly. But coming home is the hard

(09:36):
part. It was adjustment but I think in the end I was built for cooler weather so hard, maybe I just added enough. enough weight to keep I was acclimatized.
That's what it is. What was the adjustment like going from primarily working in a research facility and I'm assuming closed doors for the most part, everything behind the scenes and working with animals for sort of a very specific scientific purpose to by going to an institution like the Alaska sealife, center, and then eventually here, which is primarily a public display institution and educational rather than being a research institution, although certainly there is some research being done.

(10:11):
I mean, I, I think there were a lot of a lot of differences, some of it was a lot of the work, it wasn't that you were doing it behind closed doors, because you were hiding some, it was just that behind closed doors, and so you had a lot more control the timing of how you managed, like, you didn't have the additional I was gonna use the word pressures, but I actually think they're good challenges, like you didn't have that obligation to explain to the guest or the visitor or even enlarge staff, like you were just super focused. Which meant that boy, when you, when you task on one or two things, you gotta you feel like you get a lot more done, as opposed to being spread out. And so, I mean, it was a transition. And so for me to, you know, go to a place that had no established show times, no demonstration times are no real, the schedule was your own, you may start time you're in time, didn't matter, and then slowly progressed into facilities that you had other obligations that are appropriate obligations. That then all of a sudden, you're like, wow, I don't have control over this particular function of the day or this. When When, when I might feed this animal or when not so I mean, it was an adjustment. But I think that the value of the, you know, reaching 1.5 million people a year is significant. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think there's trade offs, and you learn to work with that and realize that that's part of what it is, you know, but we're getting to fine tune. And so I often get in this sort of philosophical dilemma between calling things science or research or conservation. And certainly in the first half of my career, I would call participating in undirected research, again, very disciplined, very create the hypothetical question that you're trying to answer to now that I think we're fortunately drifting into this conservation side that it's not necessarily a directed research question, but it's how we interact with our impact our local ecosystem, that type of thing. And so to me, it's, it's not a full arc, and I'm not returning to my roots, I think that I'm getting to like, see it from a different perspective and really focus on some of those sort of overarching goals and did CLP you know, move in that direction. I think they've always been doing it. I think we're just being more purposed on the choices we make. And then sharing that story in a more meaningful way than maybe some zoos and aquariums, including ALP historically did, if that was always the it's cool to do, but people aren't interested in that. And now I think people have an expectation that that's, that's why we exist and which I, I'm happy that expectation exists.

(12:52):
The culture change around zoos and aquariums has been really cool to see over the past, I don't know decade maybe it's I remember growing up going to a zoo and knowing that it was to have a good time and not really expecting to really learn about what that zoo does for local ecosystems or animals. And now, you come into it, and you're like, hey, cool, what are these species on? How are we helping them in some way, shape, or form? And I think that's a really cool change to see. And

(13:17):
I think it's a great change to see. And I had a CFO that I worked for that total respect that wants to ask as as a good CFO, should, what's the return on investment? Like? What's your return on investment in conservation? Like, because it's not $1? thing? Like, you can't say I'm going to put in $5, I'm getting 100 back, right?

(13:37):
If only that were every species with
my answer to him very immediate, and I firmly believe this in 20 years or so will prove whether or not I was true. I'm like, do you want to be a zoo or aquarium in 20 years or not? Because I think the expectation is that these institutions, these nonprofits, for profit doesn't matter. We have an obligation now to be a part of that change to be a part of that effort. And I think those institutions that choose not to participate in that are going to be less attended, which then therefore translates into not not there. And so

(14:15):
it's a long game. I mean, even look to this year, you have a role that is specifically conservation based. Yeah, that hasn't been, I mean, new last year, but
yeah, I guess so. But it's been cool to see that that didn't exist before. And that actually exists because Brett graded that roll because there was value in it. And there is a lot of cultural change around zoos and aquariums in general. And most of the staff that we have here are super excited to get out and participate in local conservation initiatives. And it's really neat to be able to bridge that gap of like what that skill set is because who else besides people who work at rescue centers ever handle Murray State a day

(14:53):
cooler and your first year in this newly envision role? Right. One of the Not for checking the box sake. But literally every paid staff person on our team had the opportunity to participate in an external conservation project. That's huge. I think the team feels that and supports it. Because I mean, they're all right. And we see that even in our recruitment processes now, that's the thing with the feedback, we're getting like, Hey, why do you want to come to LP? Well, we understand you guys actively participate in this as I'm glad that's that's what people are hearing.

(15:33):
I think you're so right, the expectation from the general audience has shifted, even in my, I just hit eight years here, and going years years,
like, that's like a second grader.
It feels like a secondary. But just from the public's understanding of essence, and their expectations of us two are very different. I think, you know, we are a public facility, we are sometimes seen as an entertainment facility. But it's really kind of just literally lack of a better word just to hook people and bring them in. Look, we have I've said this before, we have cute animals, we have exciting things to do. But when you leave here, you leave with so much more than just that. So I think both of you are very valuable

(16:15):
for me, and that in the animal care industry, or, you know, oftentimes the species that I worked with were considered these megafauna that just naturally people are attracted to whether it be the dolphin, the sea lion, the sea otter, I think the fun I'm having now is that we, again, we have been utilized those projects to solicit interest, or hey, come see this. And then like, Hey, look at all these other things we're doing and the amount of frog enthusiast that have been created, or that we see now. And I, my family, it's like, can you not? Can you can you stop talking about? Never. My family,

(16:57):
my family came to visit and they're like, that's enough. You can't stop No, but
from people are so passionate. And they think that thing facilities like ours, that I think you have facilities like ours, that are uplifting frog stories and amphibian stories in general, we're really reaching an audience that truly cares. And you do a good job of explaining that, you know, frogs are really such a indicator of our planet. And so in 41%

(17:23):
of amphibian species are threatened with extinction. So get a little fun.
He just knows that so far.
It's a really sad.
So I think there's this, again, we're sort of packaging these conservation programs now. But in a very appropriate way. I was super excited this morning, I'm okay, I got mail. It's actually for me, not something I opened up in it. And it was these T shirts that our team here has made that are supporting our white abalone work that I can't get on my on my Hey, now an abalone guy. Yeah, I'm not really I'm just part of it. The side advertising,

(17:58):
advertising. And I think a lot of people are very curious as to know how to get into animal care, they, you know, they see the things that are highlighted on social media, they see people training a sea lion. And the question we get asked all the time is how do I do that? You don't want to do that, please, can I do that? And certainly there are really great aspects of the job. And there are downsides to the job as well. But most of our listeners, and a lot of our audience want to know how to get into this field. And so what did you study? What would you recommend people study? And sort of? What does that what could that look like?

(18:35):
I always think that I'm not the right example.
Which is why you're the perfect example, actually. And
I think it's changed a lot. I shouldn't even say, I think I know it's changed how you get into the field, what certifications or degrees, you need to have changed and altered. And, for me, I surprised a lot of people. Because of the type of work that I did, I did never finish my undergraduate work. Some of that is my personality and the way my brain works, I'm more of a hands on person and probably struggle a little bit more with sort of like classroom learning, you know, but at the same time, the first job in the industry, I was working at the Marine Lab at the University for the professors, and I would go up and sit in the front row tried to be a good student. And they will be lecturing about the work that we were doing, which was really cool, because you're a part of it. And then as a joke, and I teased him to this day, 30 years later, they'd go Brett, what are you doing here, you should be working. And I'm like, Okay, I gotta go to work. And so, so I was like, I was fortunate. And then I think my willingness to maybe do the jobs that not everybody wanted to do, helped me in that capacity that I got to do some and I get to do some really cool things. I think Think that historically in our industry, it really has been get in. It's based on volunteerism and internship. And that's changing, and it needs to change because I in a positive way I still volunteering is phenomenal. Love it. I love that aspect of the staff that work with us. I do it in my personal life like that. That's a but but I do think that it's a little, not unfair, wrong word on equitable to mandate volunteerism, to get into a job, when there are many people that would love to volunteer, but they have obligations that keep them from doing that they can't quite make that work. And so I think that historically, in our industry, that's how we started, right? Everybody started easy to volunteer, they did one or two internships, and then we're now recognizing that that pathway, in itself probably presents some barriers to people. So how do you open this up? I think that my recommendation to people is you almost just need to be a known person. So I think certainly being passionate. I do think that in general, completing a college degree, still helps I do, again, institutions are trending away from that as a requirement. They'll often say that or an equivalent experience. But I think that's where you can make the connection sometimes, yes, certainly, if you're getting to high school students, as opposed to college students, or if you're getting to, you know, a younger group, it's, Hey, learn to invest in your community, invest in aid and working around your local aquarium as a kid become involved. That helps, I think that are in on the bird, amphibian mammal team, our hiring practices have changed over the last several years. And to me, again, very positive, but I think it's going to take a little time for us to be able to unequivocally say this is what but I mean, here at this facility, it's about how we connect to the guests. And I'm, I find it a lot easier to teach people how to care for animals that I do to teach people how to care about interacting with the guests and the team to you know, and the team. And so what we're looking for people right now that are team players, and interested in building up the team, and then we can teach you how to take care of the animals and teach you other stuff. And so I, in when I talk to my colleagues that are in similar roles and positions, I'd like to say that, hey, we're at the forefront of this. And we're, I think a lot of people are starting to realize that sort of, like, again, it's about the team. I mean, I started your ask, What do I do, I didn't say that I take care of animals, I said I I work with a large team of people that were tasked with this and, and that's the, that's the ticket, like getting people that want to invest. Even our conservation stories are not our stories, our investment. I mean, in order for us to get 100% participation of staff out there than those that aren't out there, you have to work hard. Right. And so if you're not willing to, you're investing in each other all the time, because Alex gets to go and participate in some marine mammal rehabilitation work? Well, it's not that Alex's work didn't get done back here on this day, you know, like to allocate it. And so I think that, that getting, you know, really coming in as a, I believe in the team, I believe in the community, I believe in that, that that sets people apart for me now, when I'm going through those sort of hiring processes and looking. And you gotta you gotta want to work. Yeah. It's and that's, that's almost a bad word nowadays work as a four letter word, right? Like, or it can be, and there needs to be balance. And I don't model that well. But I think I'm better at not expecting, you know, like, yeah, not better at other people. I'm getting better at not expecting, of course, you know, but but but to a certain quality that you got to want to work.

(24:07):
It's been interesting to see sort of how the team dynamic has changed over time. But I think it goes back to sort of what you said that exposure is really the number one key to getting into this field. And whether that's being someone who is known to a facility, like even our regular visitors, I get to know like, there are aquarium members that I see all the time, and I actually have conversations with them. And it is much easier to pick out that name from a resume than it is to not so just talk to people at the aquariums where you work, get to know them. But if you have the opportunity to find a way to integrate into it. I think the other part that people don't always realize is that there's a high chance it's not for you, as fun as it can be. That's like 2% of our job is what you see on social media and Madeline's on a wonderful job of highlighting what the reality of it can look like. But certainly you see someone having fun. I

(24:59):
see I think the
opposite I agree with what you're saying is that this isn't cut out for everybody. But equally important. I don't think it has to be someone's lifetime choice. Right. And so I think we've had to change, almost modify our definition of success, or how do you qualify? Good retention? Well, I, again, if I have a person that put in all for four years, and after four years was like, Hey, man, what an experience, and this is what I've learned about myself. And I'm going to deviate into this other pathway. I don't look at that as a failure. Right. And I certainly used to we were taught to look that oh, you lost a person. Oh, you don't? I'm like, actually, you know what, like, because this is it, I would change. Maybe there's a few things I might change about my pathway. But I don't regret many of those things. And I love the things that I've experienced, but it is not. I mean, it's it's cold, it's wet. It's fishy, stinky, stinky, smelly. not glamorous. We're told

(25:59):
by many guests how bad it smelled like, you're just walking. It smells terrible. You're like, okay, sorry to
bleach your fish.
Yeah, it's not as glamorous as it looks when you can't smell us.
And if it's not something that maybe you're not interested in, there's so many other roles and facilities like this, like social media, like science, communication, so many other things that you can do, or you can be around amazing people like you. And you know, only touch fish if you really feel like it that day. And

(26:32):
I I like what you just said bad luck. And I think again, when I look at the team dynamic and where people sell me in a interview, is also when they value those other experiences in this place. Like we are one very large team and not any one of our departments can can can survive in isolation. And I And that needs in, in the animal care field, I don't think that's always been the sentiment of those that are doing the animal care. I think that's changing. I'm happy that's changing. There's a little bit of a culture shift. Yeah, not referencing. This is, yeah, 30 years of watching people,

(27:15):
nonprofits in general, it has to, it has to work as a full team, because we're all here for the same reason. That's for the animals.
So in your experience over the past couple decades, how has Animal Care changed? What does that look like? How is it different than when you started? And has it improved? Hopefully?
I mean, I think it's, yes, it has improved. And I think we can demonstrate that very empirically, like from a data driven standpoint and a feel about it, right. And that's the part that I think that this pendulum is swinging back. Because in my generation of coming up in animal care early on, there was this, like, Hey, we're scientists, we're not feely people like, like, don't have to morphism and you can't tell what an animal feels like. And you. And now I think we're allowing that sort of back in to like, cause feeling or your your gut? Or how does, how does this make you feel, I think contributes. And, and so, you know, we used to call it animal care. And animal care to me now is, you know, the needs of the animal and the environmental parameters, the nutrition that they need. That's animal care, like, yeah, you clean things here, your protocols for them, yes. Now we're looking at it this broader, like, is this animal thriving in that environment. And in how we define what thriving is, there's some variances in that. But so I think we look at it different than we're looking at it at a much same time, a broader lens, but then a very focused effort to ensure that, that that our animals that are in our care, acting like like they're, they're supposed to, they're supposed lack of a better term. And so I feel like that's very positive. And and very different than how we evaluated our animal care programs maybe 1520 25 years ago. So we we've improved and then that's been a hard, not a hard sell, but a hard transition, because I think we certainly I was brought up in a system that we were very proud of our animal care should have been very clean. Very spotless, I would eat off that floor and that food maybe. But um, but I think that we now realize that there's these other components, we have to be looking at social structures and this type of thing. And I think that most modern zoos and aquariums are not even trending there in that direction. And, and we need to keep going that way, which is why I think it's better now. But I don't think we could be where we were if we didn't have the experiences we had. Yeah. Don't learn, you know, like,

(29:54):
it does feel like the approach is a little bit more holistic now than when I started even I Started 10 years ago cheese, and you know, started working around animals, it was very much like sanitize everything, you know, there are animals for which that is not an appropriate way to handle things, there are animals that need a microbiome around them frogs exist in their own muck in their own sense, you know, like, and that's healthy for them, you don't want to frog in a completely sanitized environment. And it's the same for a lot of species actually. And I think that has been a really cool change to see is that people will approach Animal Care and now animal welfare and they look at the animal, they looked at their environment, they look at all of these things that we maybe didn't consider before. Oh, is the glare a little bit too bright in here for this animal on try to see things from their perspective. And I think taking the human perspective out of it, and then looking at it through their lens has changed it, you and

(30:46):
I, several of us, but you and I specifically had this opportunity to last several months that when we were building out this new exhibit, frog frog is trying to stay away from facing change. There we go.
Good marketing.

(31:07):
But even that process, in Aaron Usopp go or unfortunately got to experience my free flow of brain coming out going wow, the way that we're looking at these environments are so different. And, and there is a it was unintended initially, and then it was very intentful. That was from a welfare perspective. And like we're creating, and we don't I mean, I think it's all been positive feedback, which is lovely. But people like boy, they're really hard to find sometimes, it's part of the experience of being because we now know that providing that bioactive environment that provides both shelter and lighting parameters that that's what these animals need. And we're willing to tell that story. Recognizing that there might be a day the guest box and they might not see their favorite prop. But

(31:55):
but just come find me an appointment. Special.
I will say again, that exhibit is so beautiful. You guys did an amazing job up there. It's It's unreal up there if you haven't visited the aquarium yet. Frogs facing a changing world. Right? Yep. You got it nailed. It opened. almost a month. almost a month? A couple weeks? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really spectacular. So you have to go and see it.

(32:20):
It was a special experience. There was a lot, a lot of cool team activity going on their broader team. It's been fun. Space
has been transformed. It's really cool to see us focus on amphibians so much, where, you know, mammals have their area, the efficient invert sides have their area. And I feel like amphibians are kind of this new getting their money and new guy on the block.

(32:44):
Yeah. I mean, amphibians are basically marine mammals, they spend part of their time in the water part of their time on land, and they eat a lot. Basically, I don't think my job changed that much over the last couple of years. But yeah, it's definitely it's definitely been interesting to sort of watch that transition. And I have a question for you that Madeline is also going to ask me, but how do you sort of decide from your position what conservation the aquarium participates in, or at least our team participates in, we are

(33:12):
trying to be more mindful of that process. And, and not following trends are not trying to predict where things are going this much is, you know, like, I think, my mind I look at sort of ecosystem impact, community impact. And I, I'm trying to make myself love Southern California. Yeah, and right, like, I mean, cuz I've lived in some phenomenal places, that it's so easy to be a conservationist, when you're out in the middle, you know, but it only 700,000 People live in your state, let alone 15 million in in a 50 mile perimeter, you know, and, and so I think that Aquarian Pacific is geographically, location, location, location, like we are in a phenomenal location. And and we have the opportunity to go geographically, a lot of places it fit within sort of our mission parameters. But there there is so much going on in the Southern California ecosystem, that I think that we were looking too far for a while, and now we're trying to look at because I guess I don't think the aquarium can solve it. I don't think any one entity can solve it, it's going to take a community and this network of places. And so certainly right now, I think that, you know, no project is our project, or a partner or a partner all projects and, and I love that that's what we're looking because I think that partners are going to create more effective change than than any single institution or single entity. And how does that how do you then expand that into, you know, community participation or guest participation or how that is and so and I mean, certainly, you You do have to put your mission hat on and go, Hey, is this about Pacific Ocean related activities and make sure that we started trying to stay as true to that as possible or create that kind of you know, but I don't know if that answered your question. Does.

(35:16):
I have a question? So going from somewhere like Alaska, where you're so connected to nature, and you see everything, right there, versus working in Southern California and conservation efforts, do you find it disheartening, sometimes seeing the cause? Of a lot of the issues that animals face?
Art departments? I mean, because none of us don't even remotely promote that. I think that I have the, the reasons why and that, and as much as I've been academic, adjacent, I am not an academic. But I mean, people are the problem, right? Like you're

(35:53):
faced with it. So
I mean, I think that the reverse of that, to me was, what I recognized and living to Alaska, is that Alaska is pristine, not because the people are conservationists or environmentalist fewer. They just they're not there. And so you come back here, and you're like, how do you affect that change? You just hit it, like, trying to get our communities to be more respectful of those environments? And I think it's part of the reason why become a little more interested in these smaller, maybe smaller in scope projects, but not you know, like, how do you get someone that I mean, our monarch butterfly programs, that we're looking at community gardens and investing in those, like, that's how you do it, right, you got to get these people to be passionate and want to be involved and make it about a 20. By 30 square foot plot of land in the middle of suburban, or downtown Long Beach, people are gonna connect to that. And so I do think that that leads to harm. So it can be tough, but I in my head, right or wrong? Because I don't know that I'm right. Alaska was beautiful, because there were no people in it. Or not enough people to muster, you know, like, yeah,

(37:09):
coming from Hawaii, and moving to a place. I know, you lived on the East Coast, two very different locations, to racialist.
Um, I think it's, I mean, it's similar, it's definitely that people contribute the most to sort of the environmental damage, unfortunately, that we see. And it's, I don't think it's ever intended to be damaging. And I think that's where it's hard is people aren't trying to ruin things, people aren't trying to do any sort of damage they want to help. They just don't necessarily know that they don't know how, or, or what can they do exactly. And I don't necessarily think that the way that our society and our economy and everything is set up is made for people to be able to help and I think we are seeing a shift. And we are seeing people start to prioritize that and actually put economic value on environmental things, which is really, really cool to see like blue carbon initiatives. And there's talk about, you know, giving biodiversity credits, if an ecosystem is biodiverse, generally, that means it's healthy, and that's worth money to someone that is really cool to see those changes becoming a thing. But I think a large part of the issue is that people are just not given the tools or the access or the time, and it just really isn't set up for us to be a part of our ecosystem, we still consider ourselves people who are separate from the environment, and we are not part of the ecosystem, therefore, why does it matter what's happening? And I don't think people necessarily recognize that we are very much animals still living within an ecosystem center. And

(38:38):
because I think sometimes I can certainly take a darker people in general. But I think you're right, a majority of the people out there, there is no intent to cause damage. They want to help, you know, the, and I need to remind myself that they're not intending to do this. And then how can we find a way to help them understand that lesson that impact

(39:02):
or to help them help give them a platform to do that, or make those things more worthwhile or worth money so that people can do that for a living. And I think that's the disconnect. And that's what's a little bit difficult about it. So it's a multifaceted issue. Hawaii is beautiful. But again, even Allahu where I grew up is significantly more developed and significantly more impacted than the outer islands because there are so many more people. And so I think it's going to take a lot of time. I think it's going to take a cultural change, and hopefully, we can undo some of the damage that we've done before. It's a little bit too late, but it is this stuff out there.

(39:38):
You told the story on our friends podcast, the Pelican is podcasts. The story was about a ecosystem here in California, that over the course of your career has changed significantly. Elkhorn slew. Yeah. And I think that's a really great story you talk about you know, you're seeing the impacts in real time. I'm

(40:00):
in positive impacts, which, which is the cool part, to me the cool part of the story because I do think that a lot of the stories we tell, we don't intentionally make them doom and gloom or we're often telling the hard part of the story or this is the impact or the population has dwindled to this or that type of thing. And so for me, this one, you know, again, it goes right back to some of my first opportunities to work in this field. And I was based out of Santa Cruz, California working for several professors at the university and one of those professors was studying harbor seal populations in this particular body of water called Elkhorn slew, which is right estuarine system feeds, it feeds into Monterey Bay. And, and I, wow, what a fun project. I mean, you're feeling like a young cowboy out there, getting in it. And collecting samples from these animals to learn more about them and do all that kind of stuff. But of course, we're collecting blood samples, hair samples, fecal samples, urine samples, you name it,

(41:03):
how did you collect a fecal sample from a wild otter?
Well, I was the guy that had to hold the seal. So I started, I started No, those samples were collected, we would do a short term capture, and hold, hold the seal and then you could use a catheter to collect a sample. It's very interesting. I've never worked off the beach when they left. Didn't know which seal it was. Sometimes it was important to know which seals as opposed to

(41:33):
like this are important. Do you want to work
so we always had to choose I was because of at that time, probably my size more than anything, but I always got the by the end, which I was very happy with because I'm like you guys can deal with the back end. I'm going to take the by the end, you know, and so I spent more time facing front. But so this Elkhorn fluid, it functionally is an agricultural area that in the 1980s was agricultural sludge. I mean, literally, you would go through this muck this mud that when you stepped in it, you could smell like the sulfur egg smell because it was just in our in our anaerobic sludge. We used to tease like we didn't know what we were gonna catch later, because you're like, This can't be good. And we weren't there for the slew we were there because the seals utilize the saloon. We were studying the seals. And you know, 25 years later. Now we're getting to participate in a project. That's not looking at seals. It's looking at sea otters and sea otters impact on their ecosystems and Elkhorn slew happens to be a location that it's been demonstrated that by the otter population recovering in that slew of whether that recovery was because rehab animals were going into their and reestablishing or whether it was the population was growing on their own. It's an entirely different ecosystem. Now you put that keystone predator back in that eats the herbivores, then the beneficial algae start growing back, which it's amazing. So like, I grew up there now. And I was just up there last November, and I'm like, Man, I spent 10 years of my life in this slew where it was just brown and sludge, and now it's eel grass, and like the this otter population of 100 plus animals and it, it's amazing. And so like, you're a part of that you're a part of the reason it looks that way. Maybe I certainly but that part for me means we can change this. I didn't anticipate in my career that I was going to see the the positive impact. It was just the continual erosion, or mental decline, like all these things, and I think we can make that difference. And we have. And so doom and gloom and we need to be aware because there's some tipping points that we're going to be hard time coming back from but it can't be done.

(44:00):
There's optimism. Yeah. Good. What's your favorite part of your job?
I think it's gonna sound a little corny. I mean, at this point. It really is watching the team like materialise. That's the struggle to write like, in certainly that but to step back and and see how the team is just coming together and, and again, most recent experience watching the development of the frog gallery because again, I it was it was that team and working crazy hours, everybody was everybody was tired, but we were supposed to be tired. You can't not be tired, working the way we were working. But every one of them I had to be like go home.

(44:47):
It was so reinforced, right? Like,
no, no, you you need to and that. It's been a while since I've experienced that. And and that was cool. In the notes, so I mean, in the end, the animals are cool. And I have done some things that no one ever else is gonna get to do and with animals, which is awesome, but it man, it's team of people in the end

(45:13):
inspired me to say something reinforcing, I think it's really funny that you use that word because it's something that you're doing in your training, tell we reinforce our animals, great, I think it's cool, if there's something here that is reinforcing your optimism, your love to work your love for your role.
That's funny how much animal training is the same as people? You know, like, I think people think that they are very different and very separate from the animals that we work with. And the training things are the same. My favorite animal training thing that is somewhat controversial, but is a thing is an LRS, which is a least reinforcing stimulus or scenario, depending who you ask, where it's like, effectively, just three to five seconds of a neutral response. And I have often found myself using that on people if they are doing something that is maybe like me, I don't necessarily agree with that. If you stare at someone for five seconds, after they do something sort of undesirable, they often will be like, you know,

(46:11):
Animal Care is is leaking into your life and human care, psychology, very interesting parallels to real life and aquarium life. I guess it's really for you guys to
there's a handful of people who transition from animal care to child care and working with kids, because effectively those are very similar. No, not offensive to children's
marine mammal. behavioral management originated with child psychology. It was all BF Skinner. And you know, I mean, like, it's cool. Yeah, that was all child psychology, in the 50s. And 60s is what led towards the principles that you predominantly use to shape behavior. And most animals, I shouldn't say marine mammals, but it's funny how now we're applying it back. Yeah.

(46:54):
Actually, it is for people again.
It's really cool. Okay, we have some questions for social media. And the first one is, did you always want to pursue a career in animal care? No, no.
What did you want to do? Yeah,
I thought I was going to be a doctor, like a human doctor, like if you ask my family from when I was like four or five years old. So that's what I said it to the point where when I was in my, you know, junior senior year of high school, I was like, looking at at college programs from that sort of pre med lens. And I realized, my first year and or not year, my first quarter in college, that all went out. School and that was not going to be but but I mean, ya know, I never thought this is what I was going to do. But there's

(47:40):
always been some sort of care that you've been interested in, which I think is fascinating.
Yeah, I haven't I haven't thought about from that perspective, but very interesting.
What's the most interesting animal you've worked with so far? I
changes. I don't have a, what's the
rarest animal that you've worked with? Let's start there, and then work our way back.
I guess I mean, from a marine mammal perspective, probably a Guadalupe first seal. From a listing status standpoint. No, that's not true. Cooking with Lucas. There's only 300 of those Cook

(48:13):
Inlet belugas. So for those belugas, that's a distinct populations. And so for that population population
that are critically endangered. Yes, that would mean, on your definition of rare right? There were only 300 of them. And I worked with one.

(48:33):
We had someone who previously volunteered to go on to intern at the Alaska sealife center, and then send us pictures of Brett that were just like weirdly posted around the aquarium famous, or the Alaska sealife center that were like on the wall. And it was like a protocol or something. And it was like a picture of him and waiters like feeding a walrus. This is like what is

(48:55):
cool. Yeah, no, I mean, that part's been good. I've been super lucky. Like, maybe not lucky. Fortunate. That's a better word in that I've gotten to work with most of the species both in sort of our collection environment, and both out in the field. Which is just amazing. And so I mean, I I highly value those experiences and but you know, individual animals. Certainly there are some that resonate and I don't know whether that fades over time, or whether it hurts a little when you lose them. So maybe you don't invest quite the same way when you I'm trying to figure that out. We just participated in the meeting today that was sort of quality of life and end of life, animal processes with animal welfare, and it makes you think, and it's like, hey, name your animals, and I recognize that my animals are some of the ones that earlier in my career, and I know I'm equally invested in the ones that are present in my life right now. But I wonder whether you develop that little like, I'm never gonna let that get attached quite the same way.

(49:55):
I'm gonna I certainly think so. I it was weird seeing animals that I was at Ah two from when I started here not appear on that screen because the people who worked with them have all either gone on to do something else. And the animal that I think has impacted me the most in my career is a sea otter that has unfortunately passed away. So it is weird how much I still think about that singular animal that I worked with, and how much I can think that individual changed the entire trajectory of my life. And I don't know that maybe this is gonna happen later in your career when you are more involved or more invested. But I can specifically name several things that I probably would not have ever done, if not for the existence of that creature, which is cool, but also just such a weird, weird thought process. And she has never probably thought of me. And that is the other hard part about loving animals is they don't love you. Yeah, they know you, they know they might like yella.

(50:49):
That must be I mean, you guys are so passionate. So there is an element of having a deep passion. And maybe it does come from a singular animal, or even as a kid, a pet that just trying to attach yourself to, you know, the idea of animal care in general. And I think that's
what the aquarium hopes to achieve to is to allow people that opportunity in that intersection. Yeah. Because I could tell you that I probably cared a little less about California sea lions until I saw them. And I was like, Dad's really cool. Like, I want to be around that, and I want to do something. And then we sneak in the frog. And we're like, hey, love this. Also, while you're at it, and it works, it truly does work.

(51:27):
And I think that's, you're mentioned in the frog. That's the part that's interesting in my own head is that I can't pick one. Like, I mean, over the span of the career, like it's, I am blown away by my enthusiasm by the mountain legged frog project. I mean, and they get, I think some of it, I can go, hey, those, they're technically from the mountains that I grew up in as a kid. So I have my own little connection point right there. But I am equally passionate about that project that I was about a marine mammal project that I worked on, and I am happy that I can rekindle that passion. And still feel it in 30 years, which, I don't know how like that. But I

(52:13):
also think that passion is contagious though. Because learning from Aaron about these animals and seeing how passionate she is. And then seeing that passion literally spread through the team. And seeing how unlike now you guys walk past the exhibit, and you're like, look at them. And like you know, to the untrained eye, you're like that's a fraud. But I'm like, Oh, they are so can you know it is contagious. So come to the aquarium. They're

(52:37):
all doing stuff. That's the coolest part like not to be defensive over the front, but that you walk by and they are doing things.
What people need to see is the wrestling matches. With the smoky Jungle Frog.
Yeah, that was pretty cool to see. We had a night event the other day where our spunky jungle frogs were all males, they are fine. They are not hurting each other. But they can be a little bit territorial. And part of the way that they express that is that they will wrestle wrestle. And

(53:01):
it looks I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty morning, and I'm I'm like this is cool.
I mean, people are watching it, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, and they you know, they can see that they come away totally fine. One is the winner and sits on the High Rock and the other one is download, but like, it's just cool to watch this, like little community of animals doing whatever it is they would

(53:23):
be doing would be doing in
wrestling, what's the most challenging animal that you've worked with? And why
I think that in general, birds can be more challenging. Like, because I don't think they they don't show. They're complicated, complicated and, and they hide it really well. And then by the time you see it, you're like, oh, like you know it, whereas I think that a lot of other terrestrial species. It's like, they're not, they're not hard, you know? And so I think it depends the challenge. You know, can

(53:55):
you have pets at home, if you care professionally for animals? How does it impact your ability to be a pet owner, or how you interact with your
price? I think the challenge for me, I, in my adult life have not been like the primary owner or primary. I'm most most of the pets that I've lived with and around and some of it was I believed that I couldn't provide for them in the manner in which, you know, like, I really respect people that are pet owners that leave work at an appropriate time. So they actually go in and you know, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. And I wasn't, I was always so like, all work must be done that I didn't ever, like become the primary person because I was concerned that I couldn't provide for them in the manner in which I believe they should provide for and so I mean I so right now I do not have pets at home But back to the reinforcement talk, I was heavily reinforced for not having pets. In particular, when I lived in Alaska, because part of our response network, we were the only rehabilitation facility for marine mammals in Alaska. And so any marine mammal that stranded that the federal government had interest in either sampling or helping to try to recover, you had to respond to we that we could respond to him. And when when 90% of your team either has a dog was in a relationship and had children to take care of war, or had a dog, they'd be like, Brett, can you get on a plane, I might go back to the car, let's go, you know, like, so I mean, I think there's a little, but then you learn to you invest in other ways, you become a really good dog sitter.

(55:44):
I do think that like, even for me, I have a dog, and he is a very good dog. But the things that I prioritize my dog are so different than what I think I used to. And when I was a kid, I remember when I had a dog, I was like, I'm gonna teach him every trick. And so my dogs knew a ton of different behaviors, they could sit, they could bark, they could do a spin, and downward dog basically does nothing. But the trade off was that I had trained him to just be okay with everything. And so I can open his mouth all the way stick my hand down his throat, if he swallowed something weird, I can trim his nails, and he can do the stuff that kind of matters to take care of him. And so I think it changed my perspective on sort of like how to prioritize taking care of an animal and desensitizing them to different things. Rather than just thinking that a trained animal is one that knew a lot of different behaviors, it definitely it has changed my perspective on pet ownership in the same way and I have frogs at home, but I have four tiny dark frogs in an enclosure that is I could fit inside

(56:37):
it. So I do think it changes how you look at things and how you want to give your animals everything that you would be able to give them at a well resource facility like we have, like, Okay, how do I replicate this in my house. However big my apartment I
was recently, I had a small stint of time, maybe not that small, but that I sort of a reptile enthusiast. Also, when I was younger, and Savannah monitors, I am like, monitor lizards are this thing for me. And I consider it so I went on the adoption page, some of them was and whereas 15 years ago, I would take it in a second. And then I'm like, I need to look up what this animal needs. And I'm like, this animal needs 130 degrees. On in this spot, it needs this environmental parameter. Here I go, it says the minimum specs are a four by eight blank by five, I might I am not putting a four, I can tell I have to convert the whole second room into Savannah monitor home. So I did in that particular guard, I think I'm more guarded in that. I believe that I have an understanding of what is needed. And I recognize that my lifestyle and schedule probably can't do that. It's fat in particular, in a single, like you're the primary person as opposed to a partnership or a family that has you can spread that out that kind of stuff. A responsible

(57:59):
way to care for a pet is to put all those needs first and realize or desires to want the pet in the beacon. So you can have pets if you want.
But once you've seen how it looks, sometimes you don't want
to join the animal care industry have pets at home? Yeah, don't. And I'm not implying that they're not caring for them in a meaningful and appropriate way. It was just

(58:26):
our last question from social media and probably the most difficult to answer because this time, we sort of circled it, but we didn't really mention, what is your best advice for someone who wants to pursue a career in animal care, or potentially change their career to be in animal care? It's not an easy question. But as someone who hires for careers in animal care, I feel like people would really respect the perspective.

(58:56):
All right, I think that, again, it's too different, like for the person that has a career or is in an industry that's not animal care, and is interested in getting into it. That's where I would say volunteer somewhere first, like usually literally your spare time. So I think my answer is a little different for those that that already have an established career. And I think for the person starting out or that has grown up and then always wanted to work I really do hesitate to say you must go volunteer whose I think again, that sets up this weird precedent this weird precedent but but I think that it's about being known like so like I look here at the Aquarium as an example. But the hand we have this what I consider a very cool, incredible program that our volunteer means that are kids while they're in high school are having an opportunity to come in and and participate in various programs. I can't tell you how many people that I brought in for an interview because I met them or I interviewed people that colleagues had come and said, Hey, I know this person has a typical background, I'm not asking you to give them a job, but we at least like, let them in the room. And then you're like, wow, look at this, you know, and we've got some really cool team members because of that. And so I think that finding a way to be involved in your community, I think that getting involved in not any aspect of animal care but working at your local SPCA, the Humane Society, four H club, like any of these things, like I value that I look at that now. And if someone says I came up to four h, or they lived in some agricultural community, and how to take care of the livestock are my main on what work is.

(01:00:42):
There's probably some people who are like, well, I don't even apply for that, because I don't live anywhere close to walk, right, where I would work with marine animals up close, but there is still so much value in the experience. And
I still have a ton to learn about animals that we care for, that I care for. But I'm more I again, I would rather hire someone that hasn't no experience with the species we work with, but has a demonstrated passion or willingness to, you know, in our world here, like it becomes we found this like, for, in my opinion, for us to do our jobs appropriately. We also have to be extremely comfortable interfacing with and interacting with our guests.

(01:01:24):
That's been one of the biggest probably growing points of my career is like I didn't necessarily want to work with people. I mean, I wasn't opposed to it. But I was not a good public speaker. I did not work, you know, on to think but I kind of was forced is probably too strong a word, but like, thrust into this, Hey, you are now the center of attention. Everyone wants to know, what do you know about sea lions? And what do you know about frogs. And like, half of that came from actually Madeline doing tick tock lives and tic TOCs, where I just had to speak on the things that we knew. And they became popular and they were entertaining. But they're also educational. And I, I almost feel like that was a large like turning point for me where I'm like, Oh, my job is actually to tell people these stories. And not, it is taking care of animals, but much more. So the impact that I'm going to have comes from telling the stories of the animals and telling people why they're important, but also entertaining them so that they keep wanting to learn a little bit more about the animals. And so I think that's the birth of this podcast, it's everything everything is to tell stories and to talk to people so

(01:02:27):
and you're so great at it, I think that's where that's where a lot of our success has come from, from social media is is videos where you're showcasing your passion for the animals and speaking about them when all of our staff here they can speak on things in such an accessible way. And that's always my goal with our social media presence is to present them in an accessible way where me a person with no marine background or science background can listen or watch and be entertained and want to learn more

(01:02:52):
and not feel like there's a weird barrier of I have to understand these things before I can
listen, participate in this in this world. And it's not the case, I think you do a really good job of that. Okay, thanks. Um, what I want to end on is your vision for the future of animal care. Do you see where do you see it going? Where would you like it to go? Whether it's specific to the aquarium in general, or just the the growing set of animal husbandry, animal care in the future,

(01:03:19):
I feel like, and I like that, we're almost going back towards this blending of art and science, this holistic approach, but validate that by science by science, you know, and that's, for me, that's what feels good. Because certainly the first half of my career, again, I was not the scientist, but I was was the person that had to collect the data in a very, like, rigorous manner, and you learned a lot and you can talk a lot about the physiology and a lot about this, but bringing that back that and this just, again, creating environments that our animals thrive in and defining thriving by acting like and exhibiting behaviors you'd see in those animals in their natural environment. And I think that zoos and aquariums are beyond trending that way that that is the modern zoo and aquarium. Any zoo or aquarium that's been around for more than 20 years, they're gonna have areas that they're going to focus on and work on, you know, but but it's just, I want to see this holistic comfort with artistic thought processes, but backed up by validated science

(01:04:40):
and data and I think that's what welfare is really approaching and I think it's a really cool relative new development in animal care is looking at welfare. So we'll talk about welfare someday that'll be a whole episode in and of itself if we want it to be okay. But All right, well, thank you for thank you learn teaching, teaching me how to get

(01:05:07):
finally hired.
This has been an extended job interview 10 years? I do, I think people really appreciate it. And really genuinely the question everyone wants to know is how do I do what you do? And I think it's a good summary of you can do it. Are you sure you want?
And I think that like the philosophical or ethical dilemma I have now almost goes back. Are you sure you want to know like, and

(01:05:31):
not in a mean way
job doesn't end when you clock out? I know, I know, as much as as much as you'd like it to, maybe you would want it to, but you're constantly thinking about these animals. Because there's such a connection. There is such a love a passion for that, which I think is very admirable. But that you do, yeah, something that you do have to consider if it is the right job for your career.

(01:05:54):
One time, I got laid off from a position or the grant ran out, and my job was like going in for about nine months, I was working on a boat as a deckhand and running the boat loved it. I love that kind of work anyways. But it was the only time in my adult life that nine months that I had a job that when you got the boat back to shore, you plugged into shore power. That's it. It was done. Done. Right. Yeah. And I and I never experienced that before that, and I haven't experienced since. And that nine months, the first five, six months, man, it was lovely. And then I had like, so I mean, for me. What reinforces me is not having something that the light shut off, and then I don't have that. But I don't think that reinforces everybody. Nor should it. Nor should I expect everybody to have to be reinforced by that. But the reality of it is, I don't think you can stay in this field for a long time. If your expectation is that that you work seven and a half hours, you shut off switch and

(01:06:56):
you didn't care about the boat when you plugged it back in. He's dreaming. Better for that. But really
clean 20 some odd years ago, right? Yeah, still very distinct in my memory of that, that feeling like literally plugged into shore power and you're like, you know, like it first empty in that four or five months afterwards. It was refreshing like to do that. But then I, there's

(01:07:22):
a part of you, there's a part of you. The reason that you've been in this industry for so long is there's a part of you that needs that maybe or the part of you that enjoys that, right? Both
need enjoy.
Definitely, it's an it's a very niche job to have for the long haul. And if you're in it, you're in it. And I think that people should pursue a career in it. If it's something that they know that they want and they're passionate about, but maybe just getting exposed

(01:07:45):
to add or get in it. Have a blast. And if you lose that, get out and take what you learned. Don't don't stay in just that. You know, like,
That's good advice for any career, train your
coworkers at your next job. Just works great for me and my last job doesn't seem like it's working. Well. Thank you again.

(01:08:08):
Thank you, Brad. That was wonderful.