Monarch Butterflies

From milkweed munching caterpillars to stunning orange-winged travelers, learn why monarch butterflies are important and how you can help support these iconic pollinators in your own backyard. Animal Care Specialist Heather Cameron and Conservation Volunteer Coordinator Dawn Nygren- Burkert are here to teach us all about butterfly royalty.

Episode resources:

• ⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠
• Follow ⁠⁠@podcific⁠⁠ on Instagram!
• Email us at [e-mail]
• ⁠Learn more about the North American Monarch Monitoring Project

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hi, I'm Aaron Lundy. And I'm Madeline Walton, and
this is Aquarium. Of the pod civic.
A podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific,
Southern Californias largest aquarium.
Join us as we learned alongside the experts in animal care,
conservation and more. Welcome back to Aquarium of the
Pacific. We are actually going to be
going into one of our conservation initiatives that we

(00:28):
participate in through the Aquarium of the Pacific.
It is our participation in the Monarch SAFE program.
So SAFE stands for Saving Animals from Extinction, which
is quite an honorable acronym. Very honorable.
And is administrated through theAssociation of Zoos and
Aquariums, which is something that the aquarium is also part
of. So we get to be part of some

(00:49):
really cool programs, and today we get to talk to two very cool
people who do a lot of the legwork for our participation in
the Monarch Safe program. Their names are Don Nygren
Burgert and Heather Cameron. Both of them are wonderful
people. Don primarily is over our
community science components andHeather primarily helps to

(01:10):
facilitate our participation in taking care of our butterfly and
pollinator gardens here on site.But both of them actually work
together and do a lot for this program and also help with
community engagement as well, which is an incredibly important
part of the Monarch Safe program.
What we might not know about monarch butterflies is that
butterflies are insects and therefore they are

(01:32):
invertebrates. And invertebrates are one of the
broadest taxa. And unfortunately, there are a
lot of invertebrates that are not doing that well right now.
That is such a broad statement. That's like saying animals with
a backbone are or are not doing well because vertebrates are
sort of the inverse of that. And there's a ton of
invertebrates. That's most species on this

(01:54):
planet. Unfortunately, I think they get
overlooked mostly because they're tiny.
A lot of them are so small. Some of them are less
charismatic than our vertebrate counterparts, and so I think it
is harder to convince someone toprotect an insect than it is to
convince them to protect a bird or a mammal or a frog.
In some frogs. And so we really want to touch

(02:16):
on a very charismatic invertebrate to kind of
highlight how important it is todo this type of work for a lot
of different species and protecting monarch butterflies.
What we're going to hear is thatit is so much more about
protecting an ecosystem and protecting the environment in
general because they interact with us and the environment in
so many different ways. And so if we do a little bit

(02:39):
more responsible stuff in the way that we interact with the
world, we might not just be helping monarch butterflies, but
we might be helping a variety ofdifferent species, and some of
those species might be overlooked invertebrates like
things like monarch butterflies,like honey bees.
I think people know that honey bees are not doing the best
these days. And it is also critically
important that we protect our pollinator species that provide
a lot of economic, economic advantages to us, but also

(03:03):
they're cute and they're important and they maintain the
balance. So that being said, during the
last 50 years of the Endangered Species Act existing in the
United States, we have unfortunately observed the
decline of many different species of invertebrates.
But the good side is that the Endangered Species Act actually
works to provide protections forcertain species.

(03:24):
And so there are over 350 listedinvertebrate species.
That might sound like a bad thing, but I'm actually fairly
confident that there are more than 350 invertebrate species
that need help. But it is so wonderful to see so
much representation for a otherwise somewhat overlook
taxon existing and the Endangered Species Act, and that

(03:45):
at a federal level we are working to protect even these
most vulnerable of our neighbors.
Wonderfully put, Aaron. Thank you.
You're welcome. If you enjoy this episode, we
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(04:06):
Whoa. Podsific specific podsific, of
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(04:29):
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Please contact us. We love feedback.
We love. Hearing from you.
From you. We want to know what you want to
learn more about and there are like 13,000 animals at this
aquarium we could talk about we.Got so many we got 13,000

(04:52):
episodes your way. 13,000 episodes in the next season so
be ready. We don't.
[e-mail], And with that, we will get
into our episode. Let's do it.
Welcome back to Aquarium of the Pod Civic.

(05:14):
Today we have on Don Nygren Berkert and Heather Cameron.
So today we're gonna talk all about monarchs and our monarch
monitoring project. Aaron, I know you have a lot of
questions, but before we get into it, can we learn a little
bit about you 2, how you got started here at the aquarium?
Let's start with Don. Sure.
My name is Don. I'm the conservation volunteer
coordinator here at the Aquariumof the Pacific.

(05:36):
So I get to do a lot of fun things typically off site, such
as wetland restorations, community science projects like
sea turtle monitoring, and of course the Monarch monitoring
project. Yeah, your job is really cool.
I get to see a little bit like sneak peeks here and there of
the things that you're doing. And we've gotten to go out in

(05:57):
the St. Gabriel and help with monitoring
some sea turtles that that are strangely in the San Gabriel
River and try to say a little bit more about them.
And community science plays a huge role in a lot of these
different conservation projects because we don't have enough
people to understand what animals are doing all the time
unless the community is involvedalso.
And it's incredibly important. So I think having a volunteer

(06:19):
coordinator position that also helps kind of monitor all of
these different projects is really beneficial for us.
And Monarchs is just one component of that.
But Monarchs is what we're talking about today.
Heather, what are you doing? I'm an animal care specialist.
I've been here for almost 4 years now.
It's exciting. I know I'm a local, so I've been
coming to the aquarium for a very long time.
But yeah, so an animal care specialist involves working with

(06:41):
the birds, mammals and amphibians.
And this is one of the projects that I get to be a part of as
long as or as well as the mountain yellow egg frog project
and things like that. So different conservation
things. And that's my passion.
So I'm really happy to be a partof another one and getting to
work with people like you guys. How did you come to the
monitoring project? We actually had, when I first

(07:04):
started, we had like a plant force.
We had a plant team and it was also plant.
Force that sounds so cool. Like wore.
Green capes, no, but we were trying to take care of all the
plants inside of our exhibits because we didn't necessarily
have a horticulture force at that point.
So we were learning a lot about the plants.
And then the butterfly garden and the pollinator garden were

(07:25):
two of the places that also and needed our help.
And that Rob, our safety manager, who is also part of
this project, he kind of recruited us to learn about it,
help plant and take care of thatgarden.
And then we were kind of able todivvy up which ACS is our animal
care specialists were able to take care of what plants.
And I ended up being able to work with this project, which is

(07:47):
really cool. So being able to help with
endangered species is pretty dope if you don't.
That is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that it's cool that we have two different sides of the
coin sort of represented in here.
I think Don does a lot of the community science component of
it and then you get to do a lot of the hands on work in the
pollinator garden itself. And so we get to hear about this
project from two different sides.
We're so lucky. We are pretty lucky.

(08:09):
Monarch butterflies are endangered.
Question mark. Can I even back it up a little
bit? Monarch butterflies are insects.
What are they? They are insects, they are
invertebrates, and monarch butterflies, if you don't know
what they are, are the bright orange butterflies that you
often see flying around, especially if you live here in
California. Although growing up in Hawaii, I
saw them all the time there too,which is really cool.

(08:30):
And actually, I believe there's two different species of
monarchs that live in the UnitedStates, right, Don?
There are, there is what we consider the western population,
which is everything West of the Rockies.
So what we would see in California, and then we also
have the eastern population, so everything east of the Rockies.
And that typically is going to be the population of butterflies

(08:51):
that when they migrate in the fall, they're going down to the
fur forests in Mexico. Very cool.
And when we talk about them as being endangered, I know that
for the western population of monarchs, we are down about 95%
of the historic population to just the 5% that we have now.
Why should we care about monarchbutterflies in the first place?

(09:12):
That is the question, isn't it? Well, they're a pollinator
species, and so pollinating really makes the world go round.
That's true. And they face a lot of different
things, but they are very important to the food chain in
that sense. And not only are butterflies
pollinator species, but they're pollinator species and that
helps with native plants. There's a lot of invasive plants

(09:35):
that are around the world and especially in California, they
out compete all the native plants.
And so if butterflies are drawn to the really nice native
plants, they're able to spread different things like that and
help kind of the ecosystem in that way as well, especially for
California. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, for sure. I think also too, like you, you
ask on any one of our monarch monitoring volunteers and

(09:55):
everyone has like their particular personal story with a
monarch butterfly. Like for some, you know, they
represent cultural ties. For some, you know, it, it can
represent a particular family member or something like that.
So I think there's, you know, there's the nature aspect of it
and then there's also that cultural aspect of it as well.

(10:16):
Yeah, that's pretty cool. And I mean, pollinators are so
important in general for really making the world go round, like
you said, and for our agriculture as well.
People will hire hives of bees to come and pollinate their
farms for them because we don't have enough pollinators in the
world right now. And so finding ways to create
avenues for these animals to survive and survive is really
beneficial. And not only that, but you're

(10:38):
right. I have stories for my childhood
of playing with the monarch caterpillars that were very
stinky and I did not realize stinky, stinky, so stinky.
They really so very stinky. What do they smell like?
I stink. The stinkiest bug you can think
that's stinkier than a stink. Yeah.
And they're cute. I mean, they're, they're stripy
guys. They look like they're wearing

(10:58):
pajamas. If you've never seen them,
they're yellow, black and white striped, Right.
And they have almost like littleBunny ears for antennas.
They're super cute animals, but I think everyone has some.
Yes, very stinky. There was a time where I stepped
on one when I was a little kid. And I'm sorry, I know they're an
endangered species now. I promise.
I was in 3rd grade and there wasa milkweed tree or a crown
flower tree outside of my science classroom.
And I would always go and play with the caterpillars.

(11:19):
And so I have a personal connection to butterflies, and I
know that probably most people listening have a story or
something from their childhood and a reason that monarchs are
important to them and they're beautiful.
And on top of that, they're gorgeous.
Yeah, that helps too. Cool.
Well, monarchs are clearly very important.
Why are monarchs important here in California?
Or why is the work that we're doing here in Long Beach

(11:40):
important for monarchs? That's a great question,
especially in California. So when we talk about
overwintering, that is when the monarchs will come to their
specific very niche kind of microclimate where they can wait
out the winter and survive through the winter.
So here on the West Coast, they come to the coast to do that.

(12:03):
It's not like down in Mexico forthe eastern population that they
are in a very concentrated area where they overwinter.
And so it's very protected here in California.
It's all along our coast. So it's really critical for us
to kind of all work together because those butterflies could
be on public lands, they could be on private land, they could

(12:25):
be on golf courses, they could be on military bases.
And so for us to all work together to ensure that we're
having, you know, that there aretrees for them to overwinter in,
that there are pesticide free habitats for them, that they
have the host plants like the milkweed for when they're in
their level of stage, that's really important for us to

(12:48):
concentrate on here in California.
So effectively the eastern monarchs, we can protect a
smaller area in Mexico in order for those animals to overwinter.
But functionally the western monarchs are the ones that kind
of spread all out. So we have more responsibility
to create these corridors and allow these animals to migrate.
That's very interesting and doeskind of feel like we have more

(13:09):
of a community responsibility toprotect these animals much more
than not, that we shouldn't protect more habitat.
But it is nice that the eastern population at least has a
identified site where they wouldgo to overwinter.
What does it look like when monarchs are overwintering?
Do they have specific trees thatthey prefer to sleep in?
Hang out in? Yeah, it was kind of like when I

(13:30):
was looking it up and refreshing.
They go back to like the same nooks and crannies of the same
tree, which is really, really cool.
Yeah. I wonder how Like no.
I instinct geniuses. But question mark, is it the
same generation after generationor is it the same individual?
That is the great question. So that is also what I learned.

(13:50):
So there are different generations within the monarch,
Western monarch population. So the 1st through the 3rd are
the ones that last about two to five weeks and those ones are
the ones that are we're producing and after they do
their job, they die off. That 4th generation is the
generation that goes through that nine month migration and

(14:12):
they do the overwintering and things like that.
And so in specific areas, like Don was saying along the coast,
they're going to find those specific areas that they know to
go to mysteriously. Yeah.
That is so odd to think that there are also multiple
generations of the exact same species that display different

(14:33):
behavior. Is it?
Do we know what influences that type of behavior?
Is it environmental cues? Is it something genetic within
them? Yeah, there are some
environmental cues and this kindof goes into rearing practices,
which is not legal anymore in the state of California, but
with with best practices for thestates that are able to.

(14:55):
And please look up your state's laws.
But in the states that are able to, it's said that sometimes
rearing caterpillars indoors canactually throw off those
environmental cues. So they need those signals like
temperature to know when it's time to start migrating or
sunlight that's thought that that can actually kind of

(15:18):
trigger when they're supposed tostart making their way over.
So those environmental cues might guide them to where they
need to go. And that might start as early as
that, like that Caterpillar stage.
And so things that we do, even if you think I'm just bringing
this Caterpillar inside because it's a cold day, might throw off
its entire life trajectory because it's hormones are
different. That's crazy to think about.

(15:40):
You've changed his whole life just by bringing them inside.
And that's obviously I think people have different
experiences rearing monarchs. And in California, like Don
said, it is not legal anymore torear a monarch at any life
stage. And that is primarily due to a
lot of wildlife protections and the potential that that has to
disrupt that animal's life history and potentially
introduce disease into the wildlife, the population, which

(16:01):
we can talk about in a little. Bit legal without a permit.
Yes. And there are some facilities
that do captive rearing that have a permit here in California
or there are facilities that do it elsewhere where you do not
require one. And there are some potential
downsides to that as well which we can talk about.
But I do also want to recognize that I know for a lot of people,
the experience of seeing something go through all of

(16:22):
those life stages is incredibly life changing for sure.
And I think we've all seen a Caterpillar go into a chrysalis
and then emerge as a butterfly, and at least at some point in
our lives have observed that cycle, whether it be inside or
outside. And I understand the impact that
that has on people. And so although it is illegal in
California to do that inside, you can encourage that behavior

(16:45):
in your backyard by planting pollinator plants if appropriate
and not using pesticides and doing things that are Monarch
happy practices that you can have in your yard.
Which we'll learn more about in a little bit.
Too, Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about
why captive rearing, other than throwing off environmental cues,
are there other issues with thatthat potentially make it so that
that's not best practice? Yeah, for captive.

(17:07):
So monarchs didn't really evolveto have high concentrations in a
singular space. They kind of compete with each
other for milkweed and things like that.
One Caterpillar can actually eatan entire milkweed plant.
Really good for him. The whole plant.

(17:28):
Love to hear it. So when you put them in close
quarters like that, it's very easy for diseases to spread.
There is a parasite called OE and that protozoan parasite can
transfer really easily from monarch to monarch.
That actually if there is a monarch butterfly that lands on

(17:48):
a milkweed plant, it can depositthe parasite onto the milkweed
plant. So then the next time another
butterfly lands on it, it can you'll pick it up, pick that up
and then it can give that to theoffspring and it can cause
things like wing deformation. And so they're not typically as
strong of Flyers or they're not able to survive.

(18:10):
And so growing them in close quarters like that can just
easily spread. Increase the prevalence of that
type of parasite. I know that it is only found in
like the royal butterfly, so to speak.
So the monarchs, the Queens? They're gunning for the throne
as they are. Only royalty gets infected by

(18:32):
this parasites. That's interesting.
Are they? Are those butterflies all fairly
closely related the like royal butterfly they must be Great
question. Is this specific parasite has
kind of gone after interesting that group?
And it's a parasite that it's not fatal to that animal, but it
can. It says it was like
debilitating, affecting their fitness and their migratory

(18:54):
success. So it's.
A double whammy. It's just the ability.
It just. Yeah, I think you're like.
That right, not the best. Are there any other diseases
that they're prone to? I didn't read anything specific
other than. This is kind of the strongest.
This is the most and. This is human impact for
pesticides and things like that.There are like flies and things
that can lay their eggs in the larvae, but not so much disease.

(19:19):
Can you tell us a little bit about the monarch butterfly and
their relationship with a plant called milkweed and what is sort
of the importance of that plant to the species?
Because I feel like a lot of this revolves around milkweed.
Yeah, yeah. So the milkweed is going to be
the only plant that the monarch butterfly Caterpillar can eat.
So that is its host plant. It needs that plant to

(19:40):
eventually metamorphose, go intohis chrysalis, that beautiful
butterfly. But what's really cool is that
there's different host plants for different for different
butterflies. So the Willow tree is for the
swallow tails, the buckwheat is for the El Segundo Blues, which
is pretty cool. And so now we know, like those
plants are very important. There are native California
milkweed plants. There's a bunch of different

(20:01):
milk, There's a hundred different species of milkweed.
But here we have like narrow leaf, like Wooly is what I saw
the show we yeah, which is really cute.
But what we have in our butterfly garden right now is
the narrow leaf milkweed. And so milkweed is actually very
toxic and it's very beneficial for a bunch of different types
of pollinators as well. Bees and.
Walks if anything else. He said yes, yeah, but that is

(20:24):
very important for that Caterpillar to be eating that
like she said they can eat 1 plant, which is amazing.
That's crazy. How big of a plant?
They get they get pretty tall, they get up to a few feet and so
but yeah, so they're very toxic.It has like, so if I ate it, it
might cause, it has different enzymes and enzymes in it and it
could cause a bunch of differentthings and it could be fatal

(20:45):
with a huge consumption. But these animals?
You ate an entire. I ate an entire plant.
I don't do that. Size of a Caterpillar I.
Have it right here. I was going to look at it.
There we go. OK, so the milkweed toxin and
it's a Milky SAP and it has cardio glycosides and
cardinaloids. A cardinaloids.

(21:07):
Yeah, it it sounds very serious.Yeah, right.
You. Don't know what that is.
Does know that and so cardinaloids?
Cardinaloids and so toxic if if consumed in large quantities but
the cardinaloids they can hit like your liver and stuff like
that not fun so and mess you up.What part of the plant are they
eating? Are they eating all of it, or
are they eating the leaves? The leaves specifically.

(21:29):
They're in the leaves and then once they become butterflies
they can get nectar from the flowers, which is also
important. And when they are butterflies,
they can get nectar from almost any flower.
Or is it specifically milkweed? No any flower, and so that's
important too. So for when they are in their

(21:49):
larval stage of the caterpillars, they do need the
milkweed. That's that's their host plant
that they need to survive. But when they become
butterflies, that's when they need nectar plants.
And so if people don't want to plant milkweed because they've
got, you know, small children orpets and they don't want the
toxic plant in their yard, you can also help by planting native

(22:13):
nectar plants. Native is best one because
they're, you know, water friendly.
You, don't you? Yeah, especially in California,
native tends to mean we're usingless water because the plants
here have evolved to do OK. It's also really nice when you
don't, you can just kind of set those plants and forget them.
They don't need a ton of meat here because they're from here.

(22:36):
This is where they survive. And so hopefully having those
native nectar plants to fuel them as they go on their long
migration, yeah. If you lived here in California,
what are some species of really good nectar plants that people
could plant that are maybe easily available for people?
We have some cool ones in the butterfly garden and our, so we
have two of them. We have butterfly garden and a

(22:57):
pollinator garden, but they're essentially the same, but
there's different areas different, but they function the
same. So we have some lilac verbena
out there, some California buckwheat, some white sage.
We don't have any poppies, but that's a good one.
That's a California, and that's the California State flower.
Beautiful. Some yellow Yarrow.
We have monkey flower out there and we also have some willows

(23:17):
for the swallow tails. So it's kind of cool that you
can have and there's lists you can go out there and there are
lists of different native species that you can plant that
are for nectar and then the milkweed for the caterpillars.
That's pretty cool. So we do a lot of kind of
maintaining both a pollinator garden and the butterfly garden.
What is the difference between the two?

(23:39):
The butterfly garden is going tohave the milkweed.
That's that's the difference. Yeah.
And we're doing something a little bit different this year.
And we put the milkweed in wine barrels so that we can easily
remove those milkweed plants when the time comes.
So the point is, is that you don't want your butterflies to
stay in an overwintering spot when they're supposed to be

(23:59):
migrating. And so that 4th generation, and
you want to make sure that you are taking out the milkweed or
clipping it back at a certain time.
And so they overwinter from November until maybe March a
little bit. And then at that point, you
don't need the milkweed anymore after that.
Is that right? Yeah.
So we're trying it where it's not in the ground.

(24:21):
It's not going to disrupt the rest of the pollinator plants
that we have and the nectarine plants.
We can just remove those wine barrels.
And then the pollinator or that butterfly garden is still a
pollinator garden after that. So we're hoping that works out
this. And specifically, the reason
that even with the native milkweed is worth removing it is
we live in a beautiful temperateclimate.

(24:43):
And so even though normally those milkweed plants would die
back in that fall, not because of the beautiful weather, they
continue growing. And so we're doing our best
practices to to do what would benatural for their cycle.
The plants don't know it's November.
Sometimes here they don't. Is that primarily just because
we're so southern that our plants just kind of persist

(25:05):
during the winter? Yeah, we just have mild weather.
And so, OK, well, the frost thatwould, you know, kill another
milkweed plant further up the coast, maybe just just still
living here. That's pretty.
So if we have milkweed that kindof persist through the winter,
that might inadvertently encourage the monarchs that are
supposed to be migrating to stayand then lay their next

(25:27):
generation there and then potentially shorten that
generation and throw off all thethings that they're supposed to
be doing. I'm guessing that then impacts
who's overwintering upstate and then what numbers we're getting
when we're counting them, and then also their general Natural
History and their behavior. Do you think?
And this question might be difficult.
I don't know if there's an answer this question, do

(25:47):
monarchs that have sort of fallen out of that life cycle,
are they just kind of gone from the population or is there a
chance that they can be reintegrated back into the
breeding population once the migrating animals have returned
to Southern California? I think it's interesting and the
science with monarchs is ever evolving seems.
Complicated. Yes.
And so This is why we have the Monarch Monitoring Project.

(26:10):
The information is constantly changing and and we are, you
know, as a group doing our best to keep up with that, to educate
each other, the staff, the public.
And so they think that there might actually be a resident
population here in California and scientists are looking at
that. So that's something that we are
very interested in and would love to to learn more about in

(26:32):
the future. So possible.
Yeah. Seems like they have a lot going
on with the different life stages and it does feel like
almost anything can throw that off.
And it feels like such a delicate balance that we have to
maintain in order for these animals to survive and persist.
If you are living coastally, that is when it's most important

(26:52):
to remove your milkweed, right? It's like within a mile of the
coast. And Santa Barbara also has an
overwintering site and there arekind of different rules for
different counting different counties.
So the general rule is if you'rewithin a mile of the coast,
remove the milkweed and then Santa Barbara, it's within 5
miles of the coast. OK, interesting.

(27:13):
So when they are then migrating up the coast or migrating around
and are here on our West Coast, where are some places where
people might be able to go see monarchs and what time of year?
Because I feel like ecotourism is a really big draw for people.
And also, who doesn't want to see a bunch of butterflies kind
of having their nice winter timein a tree?
Well, after you said that they go in that one area in Mexico,

(27:34):
now I'm trying to go and go see that.
Really, really big popular in that concert.
I think we actually do need to go for the podcast.
We need some content of this. It's all science.
Some photos. But here in on our coast in
California, we have Pismo State Beach, and that one is supposed
to have one of the largest overwintering population type of
concentration because we don't have that much concentration.

(27:56):
But right there they hit a lot, could be 20,000 to 200,000.
Wow, I know. Isn't that really cool?
Yeah, and there's also the Natural Bridges State Beach in
Santa Cruz, there's Pacific Grove and Goletta Monarch
Butterfly Grove. And so Yep, Santa Barbara all up
there and everything. And there's also a bunch of
maybe sub places too, and peoplein different areas that have

(28:19):
specific overwintering sites in that they are able to monitor
those overwintering sites. So it's kind of cool.
I wonder how they know to go back Dude every time.
And recently, so in the past, they have had a Thanksgiving
count and then the winter count,which is like they announced
that one in in January. They have started also a
Halloween count. So try and catch those early

(28:43):
early birds, so to speak. They love holidays.
Yes they do. When you're saying count, you
mean physically go out and countwho is counting?
So that's a really fun thing. You can actually go and become
certified and volunteer. Anyones counting.
You can go and get certified anddo the Western monarch count.

(29:07):
And here on the California coast, the way that our
butterfly populations are distributed in their
overwintering sites, they do physically count every single
butterfly. Whereas down in Mexico, what
they do is they just kind of estimate the hectares that
they're taking up, down and then.
They just kind of multiply that by the rough density of the
monarchs. Exactly.

(29:28):
So we're counting 200,000 butterflies per site,
potentially up to if we're on a really good year.
I hope so, because this last year's what was that?
What was it? It was under 10,000 total, which
is the second lowest number since they've started counting.
What was the first lowest? 2020.

(29:48):
That's interesting. I remember you had given a lunch
and learn lecture on what the 2020 butterfly count was and
sort of some of the details surrounding that.
So what happened in 2020 and what happened this past year
that the monarch butterfly populations are so impacted?
There are a few different thoughts and I think that goes
hand in hand with what you said about like there's a delicate

(30:12):
kind of balance here in the butterfly ecosystem.
So it was pointed out that in 2020, if anyone remembers, I
know there was a lot going on that year.
There were a lot of fires that happened kind of in that general
area where they overwinter. And so there's thought that that
could have had an impact. And then this past year, our

(30:33):
volunteers noticed and it's beendiscussed, we had a really wet
spring and it was pretty cold. And then the monarchs, for us,
it seems that the monarchs we'restarting to get back kind of
late. And so when they went off on
their migration, we had a reallywarm fall.

(30:53):
And so I think it looked like everything just got kind of
pushed back. And so because of that warm
fall, they, the queues to get back to overwinter were a little
late. And then there was, you know,
that cold storm, that cold snap.And so by the time that they
were coming back, they were caught in the middle of that

(31:15):
cold storm. And so they, I don't think they
were able to survive that. So the primary purpose of them
migrating and moving from spot to spot is to survive colder
temperatures and then find food where it's most available.
Exactly. And if those seasonal queues are
thrown off, they might not make it because your body is like,
don't go yet, we're probably fine.

(31:36):
So I'm assuming that with all that being said, climate change
is likely a huge component of why monarch butterflies are
potentially not doing as well these days.
As we've seen increased fires, increased rain, we've had plenty
of examples of more extreme weather patterns.
Whether or not it is just warming, I think it is a little
bit of everything that's happening right now.

(31:57):
And given how many different sensitive cues monarchs rely on,
that's probably throwing bring them off a little bit, isn't?
It yes. Bummer.
Can we probably unfortunately safely expect that due to the
wildfires this year in California, we'll see that
impacted later this year? It's definitely a possibility,
especially if that I think that there was at least one Grove

(32:19):
where they overwintered in Topanga Canyon and the fire
burned through there as we all know.
So that's possible that that is now an overwintering site that's
no longer available to them. That is a bummer.
Climate change and just sort of more extreme weather patterns in
general have had a lot of negative impacts on sensitive

(32:39):
species that we have here. Mountain yellow legged frogs
included and I have to always throw my frog in.
Every episode find the Easter egg and every episode Frog frog
frog. Here it is.
But what I was going to say is that's not the only contributing
factor to why their populations are declining.
And my understanding is that there is a couple others
including like habitat degradation and potentially

(33:01):
pesticide use that might be impacting them too.
Can you talk about pesticides specifically?
Yeah, there is, you know, one inparticular.
It's a systemic pesticide. And So what that means is once
the plant is sprayed, it has it's been taken up by the plant.
And so even, you know, if there wasn't a coating on the outside,

(33:21):
if the monarchs were to eat the leaves of a milkweed plant that
had been sprayed by these neonicotinoids, it's possible
that that could inadvertently kill a monarch butterfly.
And so when they're going through these, you know,
agricultural areas or even, you know, if it's say it's like a

(33:44):
golf course that had been sprayed with like pesticides or,
or, you know, weed killing things, pesticides, pesticides,
those ones. Weed killers.
Fertilizers, things like that. It's possible that that can also
upset the delicate balance. So even if they are otherwise
like unhealthy milkweed and doing all the things that

(34:04):
they're supposed to and they land for just a second, drink
nectar out of a flower that had inadvertently been sprayed or
advertently been sprayed with the systemic pesticide that
could be enough to kill a monarch.
And so it really isn't about protecting specific critical
habitat. It's about protecting the
entire, what they call a corridor of where these animals
go, all the food that they're eating along the way, and

(34:26):
finding places for them to rest that are safe for them.
That's a lot. It is.
It is a lot. It makes me wonder how anything
survives. I think it's so difficult,
especially. Monarch butterflies at this
point, I just, there's so many factors working against them.
Is there anything that is currently being recommended to
use instead of pesticides? If you're using a garden and

(34:47):
obviously people have pests in the garden.
And I know that you can't be blamed for not wanting pests to
eat your vegetables or your crops or your flowers or
whatever it is that you have growing.
What can potentially people do instead of spraying these
systemic pesticides or adding them to the soil that could have
the same effect but less toxic for animals that we don't want

(35:07):
to kill? I know there's they recommend so
like this is just for weeds. So you know, hand pulling kind
of sucks, but I don't know, maybe put on a nice podcast like
the Aquarium of the Pacific. And so shamely, and because
that's what, you know, Rob and Don and I have to do when we go
out there and we go wedding and so kind of spend some time, make

(35:30):
sure you do it early in the morning so it's not too hot,
things like that. So hand wedding and then using
organic herbicides to try and get the weeds out of there and
making a concoction of vinegar, soap and salt and spraying it on
there. You can like clean your counters
with that. That's like a really good, you
know, alternative to different types of really harsh chemicals.
But that's one of the things that can help.

(35:52):
Just spraying off the leaves gently with water can get aphids
off. Those little they're.
Kind of cute little white guys, but they're not cute.
They do bad. They're just.
Eating, but yeah, doing aphids. They're trying to live, but we
don't want them. Not on those plants.
But so I'll just like, I'll justspray them off the plants and do
my best. And then you just have to be,
you know? Pretty on it, yeah.

(36:12):
So we're maintaining a really nice organic butterfly garden
out there too. We try and that's cool.
Also I have seen the monarchs onthe the caterpillars on a
milkweed plant. They don't care about the aphids
at all, they will just use theirlittle antennas to brush them
out of the way of. The way interesting it doesn't
affect their ability to eat them.

(36:32):
Yeah. And honestly, if you're going to
a nursery to pick up like a milkweed plant, aphids on a
milkweed plant is a good sign because that means that likely
they haven't sprayed it with pesticides and so it is healthy.
Yeah. So maybe, maybe a good thing to
to look out for. Actually, it's crazy to.
Think that someone would sell milkweed that had been sprayed

(36:53):
with a pesticide? Because to me, the main reason
anyone's ever buying milkweed isto encourage monarchs in their
backyard. And so then to have had it
sprayed with a pesticide or treated with a systemic
pesticide, you're like, what wasthe point?
Look for aphids. That's how we know.
We want them. Until they're here, then you
want to spray them off of the hose.
Or you could even take a little toothbrush and like, knock them

(37:14):
off of the plant. We've had volunteers do that
too. Nice.
We love. That What did you do today?
I knocked aphids off of a plant with.
A toothbrush, it's important. It's a good day.
They did important. Conservation.
So you said our volunteers also go out and maintain the
butterfly garden. What component of both our
monarch work on site and also off site is run by volunteers or
do volunteers contribute to in ameaningful way and sort of what

(37:37):
do they get to do? Yeah, our volunteers do
everything from we meet every other week virtually to discuss
all things monarch. So habitats, biology, we go
over, you know, at the end of the year what the counts are
looking like. We do education and outreach.
We recently went to the City of Long Beach's Monarch Day of

(38:00):
Action. That was a lot of fun.
There was a planting that happened and we were out there
with members of the Teen ClimateCouncil making seed balls so
that people could take those home and create monarch habitats
of their own. And yeah, we're really excited
to be able to be on site and help out in the butterfly and
monarch pollinator gardens. And so getting our hands dirty

(38:22):
and wedding and really taking pride here on our on site
habitats. We also have do have a couple of
off site gardens as well that are maintained by our
volunteers. And so that's been really
exciting to create more of that corridor.
It's not just here on site. It's yeah, it's really exciting
to extend that corridor, have plantings on site, off site in

(38:45):
our neighborhoods. And so I think it also just
brings that connection for all of us.
I'll be walking my dog in my neighborhood in Long Beach and
I've seen monarch weigh station signs and they're like there's
native plants here. Don't don't step on them.
Like, please take care of them and then don't let your dog go
to the bathroom on them. And I'm like, all right, Barry,
we can't do that. It's really cool to see.

(39:05):
I really like that. You can certify your own habitat
if you have one. You can certify it as a Monarch
weigh station. Does that do anything for this
is not an official, is it like atax break associated with that?
Like do you get a benefit from certifying your habitat as that
or is it more just this somewhatofficial designation so that you

(39:26):
can say this is what this is? I think it's more of an official
designation. There are a few different cute
sign and things. Yeah you get the sign.
Pretty sure you have to pay for it though.
You can pay for a cute. Sign Yeah, we actually have one
here on site. Yeah, we do, yeah.
It is a cool sign I've seen. It's cool.
Yeah. I love our pollinator garden.
It's nice. I feel like it's a very, not

(39:48):
very visited part of the aquarium because people don't
see it as an animal exhibit in its own right.
And so they just see plants and like, OK, there's plants over
there. But if you were to go out by
where our watershed classroom isand where our watershed area is,
there is an entire station that talks about the California
watershed. And just behind that we have
quite a robust garden. And if you were to go and enjoy

(40:10):
it, it is actually open. The public can access most of it
and see most of it. And we also have pollinator
plants that are planted around the aquarium as well.
And I. I believe that makes up a large
component of our contribution tothe Monarch Safe program, which
is saving animals from extinction.
And we are one of many Aza institutions that are a part of
the safe and it sounds like community engagement is a huge

(40:31):
component also of what we do through our SAFE.
What sort of is your experience working within that safe
framework, and do you get to kind of talk to people from
other zoos and aquariums about monarchs and things like that?
Yeah, we are actually a part of a program called Party for the
Planet with the Association of Zoos and Aquariums and a lot of

(40:53):
other institutions are really focusing on monarch habitats.
And it's been really exciting tosee whether that is, you know,
doing plantings on site or concentrating on, on educating
others to create monarch habitats in their own backyards.
And so it's been really awesome.Also what we get to do a lot of

(41:14):
is that community science aspect.
So we get to if there are any monarch sightings, we will post
those on community science apps like I Naturalist or Journey N
Monarch Milkweed mapper, things like that.
And so that really helps contribute to the science of
monarch butterflies and it helpsto give an idea of, you know,

(41:37):
where, where are they in their migration journey, What is their
population looking like and things like that.
That's really cool. I like the collaboration between
so many different institutions, and I know zoos and Aquarius
seem like they're mostly focusedon individual animals and having
animals that live on site and our ambassadors for their
species. But also zoos and aquaria do so
much for conservation and care so broadly about conserving not

(42:01):
just the animals, but also the ecosystems in which they live.
I was going to ask, is it primarily the Western monarchs
that are covered by that, or is it all species of monarch?
We're both species of monarchs that we have in North America
that are part of the monarch safe.
It's all over the place. It's all all over North America,
Mexico, all the way up to Canada.
That's cool. They're the whole range of of

(42:22):
the monarchs migration. Nice.
I feel like I asked a ton of questions about monarchs.
I feel like I learned a lot about monarchs and I was
wondering if people were listening to this podcast and
they wanted to get involved in community science and especially
as it relates to monarchs, what would you recommend?
E-mail me. We can find information.

(42:42):
Find me online e-mail. Me.
Especially if you're local to Long Beach, although you don't
need to be. It is, like I said, a virtual
program, although we are adding in more of those on site like
gardening and horticulture components, which has been
really exciting for us to be able to, to gather in person
again, the Monarch monitoring project was born during the

(43:07):
pandemic and so that that's kindof how we started virtually and
we've kept it going that way. But as we grow more outreach
events are happening, more gardening events are happening.
So we're gathering in person more often.
But if you're, you know, not in California, I encourage you to
find plantings that are happening near you or find your

(43:28):
local Association of Zune Aquarium institution and see
what programs they have going on.
There's a lot of ways to get involved.
It sounds like monarchs are everywhere.
Need help everywhere. That's pretty cool.
Well, social media was very interested in monarchs and so we
interested. Some really good questions.
I'll let Madeline lead it up. There was a lot of questions and

(43:50):
we touched on it a little bit about tropical versus native
milkweed. Is it true that tropical is
technically bad for the caterpillars or can you talk
about the differences between those two types?
So no plant technically is bad. However, when we talk about the
different habitats, tropical milkweeds are going to be good

(44:11):
in tropical habitats. So a place like, you know, more
Hawaii rather than California. In California we have like we
said, those narrow leaf milkweed, showy milkweed, woolly
milkweed. Those are going to be the
species that are best suited forour area.
And so the reason that tropical milkweed might not be great for

(44:33):
here is because it grows really easily.
It's a beautiful plant, has beautiful flowers, and that's
why a lot of people like to plant it.
However, it doesn't die back over the winter like our native
varieties should. And so because of that, it's
more likely that those parasitesOE are going to live on it.

(44:53):
And so if people do have tropical, it is best practice to
cut those back that November through February or March
timeline. Can have it, but you have to be
on top of cutting it back. That's interesting.
Is it hard to acquire native milkweed?
Is that why? We've found that it's been

(45:14):
tricky to start from seed. It's not impossible, but because
they kind of rely on those environmental cues, they're some
of our volunteers have kind of experimented with like best ways
to grow them. Some plants need, like, a cold
shock as if it had gone through a winter period and then a
warmer. So some people have experimented

(45:35):
with, you know, putting the seeds on a warming mat or
putting the seeds in the refrigerator for, like, a day to
see if that jump starts anything.
But there are nurseries where you can buy native milk weeds
and those plants can actually bestarted.
So you can get them already started, which is a little
easier. It's.
Easier. Very.
Cool. I do have to say, Don gave me a

(45:57):
milkweed and I got really sad when it died and then I realized
it's supposed to happen and thenit came back and I was like, but
I'm doing it really a moment where I was like I killed it and
then I realized because it was native, it is meant to go
through that seasonal change andit was normal.
So if your milkweed dies and it is a native milkweed to

(46:17):
California, it's OK. Give it a couple of months,
it'll it'll be back. But it was very heartbreaking.
And then I was like, oh, it's back.
It's fine it. Wasn't exactly what it's
supposed to be doing, did it? Just look like a couple of
sticks. Yeah, it got really short and
then it had no leaves and then Iwas like for sure.
And I thought for sure I forgot to water it or something and I
was like, it doesn't need a ton of water.
Like it seems like it's doing fine, it's back.

(46:37):
So I think it just needed a a couple beats and I just needed
to not worry about it. For this nature, yeah.
I should have. So it's less about the tropical
milkweed actually not being suitable for them and much more
about parasites being present onthat.
Planet the parasites and also encouraging them to get to like
we talked that earlier to get totheir to their overwinter.

(46:59):
Keep going, guys, Keep going. That's interesting that they
would potentially choose to settle there and just kind of
hang out if they had the option.And sometimes maybe animals, if
we are introducing things that are variable to the habitat,
maybe we don't give them that option because it's throwing
them off a little bit. The next question we have, I
think that this person meant chrysalis, but I also understand

(47:21):
the confusion. Do you know, Well, first and
foremost, they asked what are their cocoons made out of?
But I would love to talk about the difference between a
chrysalis and a cocoon. Do you know the differences?
Cocoons are spun so they're things like moths.
Moths. Silkworms, yeah, so they'll spin
their cocoon. As opposed to the monarchs which

(47:45):
have their chrysalis, those are actually under their skin.
Has anyone actually seen a videoof what it looks like when they
you? Say it's under their skin.
It's under their skin, so. Know how I feel about that?
When when the monarch is ready to go into their chrysalis, it
will hang upside down in AJ and then it'll start wiggling its
outer skin off. It's very cool to see actually

(48:08):
does skin. Fall or does it get like it'll
up into? Know it.
It'll start twisting until the skin falls off.
So you'll see the skin on the ground afterward.
You should, yes, a little stripy.
I've never seen a little stripy piece of Caterpillar skin on the
ground. It makes me wonder if I'm not
watching closely enough. So to go look for him.
So they will then just kind of harden into a chrysalis.

(48:31):
Yes, which is made of. Chitin woo.
Chitin is a structural sugar andis what most crispy bug parts
are made out of. That sounds gross, but you
don't. The exoskeleton, yeah.
Skeleton. Yeah, that's kind of like, yeah,
that's kind. Of it can be crunchy.
So it makes sense that that would be what that's made out
of. So that exists under the skin.

(48:51):
Then they shed their skin off, which is horrifying.
And then they turn, they harden,and then they become a green
little chrysalis. And that is what they're
chrysalis is made out of. Cocoons are separate, and
cocoons are made out of things that are either collected from
the environment or spun like so interesting, fascinating.
We're all learning today. And what causes the green color?

(49:13):
This is gross. That is the monarch itself.
It's just green in there. So it's not that Crystalis are,
yeah, right, Chrysalis that is green.
It's the monarch itself is greenbecause it wailed off those
stripes. No more shapes.
And you can actually, as the monarch butterfly is ready to

(49:35):
emerge from the chrysalis in thehours before then, you'll
actually see the colors change inside so that the chrysalis
itself is transparent. And you can see it's starting to
get darker. And you can see like the spots
underneath. It's very cool to see.
So the coloration happens withinhours of being ready to emerge.

(49:56):
I feel like it gets a little darker brown so when it gets.
Darker and then. And then in one day, it's just
clear and you're like, there's abutterfly in there.
And then there's not. And then there's not.
But it turns out it was clear the whole time and the green is
just the dissolved Organism restructuring itself.
OK, so wait, so that's what happens.
It dissolves itself and then restructures.
Is that the process? It goes from a goopy little

(50:17):
Caterpillar with no skin to a butterfly.
That seems amazing, I know, but.If you look at each chrysalis
too, they all have similar structure to them.
Like the there it is structured goop, in there the.
Goop is structured. Is it?
It's organized chaos. Actually, yeah.

(50:38):
Is it important for the chrysalis to remain oriented in
a certain direction? Like does it if you turned it,
would that impact its development or would it die?
Well if you turned it, it's likely that the hold fast, but I
know that that's not the word. But I'm at the aquarium, so.
The piece that Hank that's hanging.
The piece that's hanging, I I think that that would.

(51:01):
What if I turned it upside down and I like pinched so like it
was hanging. Don't touch.
It. I'm actually California illegal
so I won't, but in theory I wonder if developmentally it's
important for it to be oriented in a certain way or if it falls,
does it stop developing because it bended sideways like I don't?
It's. Interesting.
I wonder if the formation to theJ shape 2 is ideal for?

(51:22):
J shape is such a funny phrase. I don't know.
Why? But I wonder if it's like
attempting to get a certain angle of sun, a certain angle of
shade. Wonder why they go where they go
Now we're just wondering. I know wondering.
Podcast. Wondering Podcast.
Why do they do? Anything.
Yeah. Why do they do that?
Questions. And like, what are they up to

(51:43):
and who's in there and where is their brain and what's going on?
Who's in charge of this? And I don't understand.
So when a monarch butterfly emerges from its chrysalis,
that's called eclosion and they hang upside down to expand their
dry wings and dry their wings. So the butterfly emerges head

(52:03):
first from the bottom of the chrysalis.
So that's that may be important.Yeah, that's kind of where their
head was when they hung upside down the first time.
Exactly. Their head stays in the same
zone. That's so weird.
Eclosion E That sounds like a cool band.
Explosion, explosion. An explosion of butterflies,
Eclosion. So another question we had had

(52:25):
was at what point does the chrysalis change color?
But most technically the chrysalis has never changed
color the entire process. They were just green inside the
whole time. And then they became a
butterfly. Butterfly.
That's. Crazy.
Is there a difference between male and female?
Or is there a visual difference between male and female?
Morphism. Yes there is.

(52:48):
And if a monarch butterfly opensits wings and you see 2 black
dots on the bottom wings near its thorax, those are going to
be males. Males also typically have
thinner black lines on the wing patterns and the females will
have those thick black. Lines.

(53:09):
Do we know is there any? Is there any thought of why they
are orange and black? Yeah.
Any reason? Yeah.
So they have scales on their wings.
And also one, you shouldn't touch the butterflies because
it's illegal. But if you do touch their wings,
like it can ruin their flight because those scales are, you
know, in a very particular place.
But it's how the light reflects off of their scales.

(53:32):
So they have a an orange hue. Yeah.
Is that to blend in? With so it is appetism.
Hyposemitism. Gosh.
Darn, and I know that about frogs too.
But not for butterflies. Much like.
Frogs, much like frogs, they have warning colors.
So because they ate the milkweed, they're toxic.

(53:53):
Oh wow. So they harness those toxins and
they it's a warning color for other animals to know that, hey,
I'm toxic, don't eat me or else you're going to get sick.
Yeah, so me and I'm being real sick.
Fascinating. That's so cool.
So the milkweed toxin persists all the way into the butterfly
stage, and that's what allows them to remain toxic.
They're not lying. That bright orange color says

(54:14):
don't eat me does. Anything prey on them naturally
or there are some. Species of birds that have
evolved to be able to eat them gotta.
Be quick. Yeah, I did look up whatever.
I remember. Cardin, I looked him up.
Cardin, what was it? Cardinoids.
OK, it's not. Cardinaloid.

(54:36):
Cardinaloids. So whatever the cardinaloids
that are present in them can actually stop essentially like
your potassium, sodium ion channels.
And so it can cause cardiac arrest and it can kill you.
I think you would have to eat a lot of milkweed or butterflies
in order to have that impact, but it's effectively not very
good for you, and I imagine for an animal that would normally be

(54:56):
eating butterflies, things couldbe fairly fairly detrimental to
them. But interesting that something's
evolved to be able to handle thetoxin.
Yeah, and also the toxin's called cardenoloids, which is my
new favorite word for an entire day.
Got so many good words. Yeah, cool.
And we talked about it, I think where people can see.
Monarchs in Socal, yeah. People want to know where they

(55:18):
can see them. Right here at the aquarium of
the. We sure hope so, yeah.
That's the goal. Yeah.
Well, I think that's the majority of the.
Questions about it? Yeah.
For both of you, my last question, how would you
encourage people to take care ofmonarchs in their day-to-day
lives, or what is something you want people to know about these
animals that they might not already know?

(55:40):
Well, if you're able to plant native, if you have the
capacity, I have an apartment with a balcony, so it's not like
I have a yard that I can plant things, but you can always put
planters on your balcony, thingslike that.
Native pollinator species of plants, those are really
important that can feed the monarchs on their way to their
migration. If you have a yard and you have

(56:00):
the capacity to the milkweed, that's really cool too.
And then, like you said, you'll educate yourself and maybe your
family at that time if they wantto watch the process and the
metamorphosis of a butterfly. That's really cool for kids to
see. And yeah, not using pesticides,
trying to find different types of organic ways to protect your
plants. If we do have a wet winter, all

(56:21):
that runoff from the pesticides doesn't just affect the
butterflies and all those plants, but it runs off into all
of our oceans and everything like that, so.
It's all connected. If we can be more responsible
with the choices that we make, but also have fun with it.
I would love to have a monarch weigh stations at some point in
my life when I own a home. So that's kind of cool and and
people can be a part of those programs and then make friends,

(56:43):
be a part of your community and do things like that.
I think counting butterflies sounds pretty fun too.
You can make a game out of that.I don't know, it sounds really
awesome. Yeah, they're signing up right
now. Right now.
Yes. To add on to that, the the
community science, if if you're not able for whatever reason to
create a habitat, I think that there's still plenty of ways
that you can contribute and be involved with those community

(57:06):
science apps. Yeah, find your community, get
together, educate each other, educate the public.
Also, something that just recently came up is how light
pollution can affect because of those environmental cues that
can throw off monarch migration.And so something as simple as
turning off your lights at nightcan really help not only, you

(57:27):
know, creatures like butterflies, but like sea
turtles and other migratory species, birds, things like
that. So that's that's another easy
way that you can help out a myriad of wildlife in your
backyard. That's awesome.
Well, it's good to know that one, taking care of butterflies
is all of our responsibility, but also that that doesn't have

(57:47):
to be hard. And that can be making small
changes that improve sort of ourcommunity and also our ecosystem
and allow for these animals to do the things that they're
supposed to be doing. Thank you both for being on and
allowing me to grill you about butterflies.
I feel like I got really intenseall of a sudden.
I was like, tell me everything about it.
Need to know but. It's a really good program and

(58:09):
I'm really happy that we get to be part of a program that does
so much for the species and alsothat there are so many people
across this country and honestlyacross the world that are doing
what they can to help monarchs so.
Hopefully we get to see more butterflies soon that that makes
my day every time I get to see abutterfly.
So that's the ultimate prize. More butterflies.
More butterflies? OK.
Thank you guys so much. We appreciate it.

(58:30):
That was so much fun. Aquarium of the Pacific is
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(58:52):
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