Ep. 58: John Dudley from Nock On Archery

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to Archery Country Podcast. Welcome back, everybody, to Archery Country Podcast. This is your host, Wade as. We are in a completely different studio than you ever heard us at. And, uh, we're located down in Iowa. And we have probably one of the coolest guests, if not the coolest guest we've ever had on our podcast. And I know that all of you already know because on your iPhone or your display in your vehicle, you see exactly what this is labeled. We have the one, the only, from Nock on Archery, mr. John Dudley sitting next to me.

(00:46):
Dude, where did that voice come from?
I tell you, it's a character.
It is. Where the heck have you been for the last several hours, bro?
Um, just learning and shooting my bow.
That's hilarious.
Learning.
That's hilarious. I was like, what in the world? This guy just came out checking to.
See if your headphones were broke. I told you. That's why I like this mic. It's all in the mic.

(01:09):
Yeah, you're, like, in your element right now. Why are you shooting archery, bro? You need to be a freaking radio.
I did this for so long and then COVID hit. I got to stay home and take care of boys.
That's awesome.
We're also down here with my good friend Andy Ehard, who is actually my connection with the mastermind himself. Known, um, Andy for a long, long time. He's also a good friend of yours. You guys do some work together. But the coolest thing about this podcast that I wanted to kind of get out of you is we've had an explosion with PSE.

(01:41):
Boom.
We've had an explosion with the Levitate last year and the Levitate this year. Also, some other bows. Not literally, no. Uh, they've been going off the shelf at a high, high rate. And I know a lot of has to do with you and social media, and we can talk a little bit about new ownership and everything, but what do you see? There's so many podcasts, so I don't want to ever, like a broken record, just have you repeat and repeat and repeat. But as far as your relationship with PSE and allowing you the ability to design and I've learned so much in the last hour and a half when we were building Andy's bow here just from you and things that you put into it, where do you see the future going?

(02:26):
Uh, I don't know. I don't map out that far in advance, to be honest with you. I think, and truthfully, I didn't even really know that I wanted to go down the bow model road. Because to be honest with you, um, if I go back to my first beginning to negotiation with PSE, um, and honestly, that year, my contract publicly, like, all the manufacturers knew that a long term contract was coming due. And if I'm totally honest, um, I didn't want to be singular. I actually asked all the archery manufacturers if they would split my contract equally to where I could represent all companies for certain parts of like, I wanted to be able to talk openly about Matthews. I want to be able to talk openly about, uh, PSE and Hoyt and ones that I'm familiar with. Um, but then PSC actually came forward and they're like, what do you think about having your own model? But we're literally going to be able to give you an engineer, and what you visualize we can bring to life for you. I never wanted my name on a bow if I didn't have part of it. For example, when I was at Hoyt, on the target side, I had a lot more feedback into what was going on. Normally on the hunting side, the engineers there are really dialed. And truthfully, um, I mean, they're all dialed, but, um, on the hunting side, I would normally get a model half a year or nine months ahead of time to literally be able to shoot it and build content with it. It wasn't very often that they said, hey, um, here's the carbon matrix. What do you think of it? Or what should we change? There was really never any of that. Um, so I didn't really want to have a knock on bow that was just our logo put on a preexisting model. Like, I didn't want to be a knock on version of an RX seven.

(04:46):
Right.
Um, because I do design. I do like R and D. This is just my background, which a lot of people, they don't really know, um, they hear it. So I kind of thought that was a very cool idea, because one of the things I was very passionate about was I really wanted to be able to bring forward a really good bow for a budget price just because it coincides with our passion for free education. So I really wanted to bring out a model like that. But I couldn't come out of the gate with the embark, um, because the whole purpose of that was I wanted people to embark on an archery journey. Okay. Um, but I couldn't come out of the gate with, here's Dudley's bow, and it's a $700 bow. But I also couldn't come out with something that was I had two passions. One was to come out with something that people could get into archery and have a really killer intermediate setup. The other passion I had was to make a bow where there was no boundaries on price or material. Okay? But the problem was, neither one of those would have been awesome to show up year one with because obviously there's, like, this shock in the industry of I left Hoyt. Um, and truthfully, I didn't want to leave. Hoyt had first, like, Hoyt had all the time to do whatever. And honestly, I told Hoyt flat out what was offered on the bow model side of things. And I knew it didn't fit. It just doesn't fit their model for PSE. It's perfect because their ability to build custom equipment is like I've had several friends that have worked with me at the other manufacturers I've worked for, and when they see PSE and their ability to make something happen, they're just like, wow, yeah, this is awesome. Because PSE can it's kind of like my white bow everyone's freaking out about.

(07:01):
Which is right here.
Yeah, that was something that they can just do that stuff fast. There's just no way we couldn't make those adjustments at the other places because all those processes weren't internal. Some processes are sourced out. And honestly, um, I know Matthews got to the point where they were doing certain colorations inside and they're dipping started bringing an automated dipper, and then I know Hoyt did after that, too. But, um, just some of that ability to customize or say, hey, let's try this riser with a half inch longer limb tomorrow, they can do it. They can do whatever they want. PSE, uh, is made internally, and that's a full functioning, start to finish Bow manufacturer.

(07:56):
And that speaks hugely to consumers, especially when you start branding it with three little letters.
Yeah, well, the problem with PSE still today is PSE is the most under marketed, high end Bow that there is. We're getting better. And honestly, the company, as the whole company was structured and from a marketing point of view, and where money goes and their pricing structure, and there was just never the proper marketing department marketing carved. And the thing is, if you look at Pete, pete was a Bow hunter that built Bows to be better than what he had last year. So, uh, he was an engineer, he's not a marketing guy. Whereas Matt McPherson marketing, uh, Matt is the master marketer, period. Out of anyone in the industry, matt McPherson is going to outmarket you done. When it comes to a long term play with a product that can coincide with his marketing vision, that's just like, it's going to happen.

(09:12):
So you say that and the company, as things have changed a little bit, you have to be one of their main tools for that. Well, I think what what Bow company wouldn't have that?
Uh, yeah, I think I was a very important tool for PSE because I came to PSE after being trained by Matt McPherson for ten years and then being with Hoyt and that team for a little bit longer than that. So you're talking two decades with Matthews was one. When I was there, I went to Hoyt, and not because of me, but Hoyt slid into number one during that time, too. So I've been with two out of the three big players and been number one at both. An internal part of that to where I'm not just a shooter, quote, unquote. People see me as a shooter or shooter contract. I've always worked directly for one of the top one or two people of the company. It's not like I've been down that chain. I've actually always been up there. When I was at Matthews, I dealt with Matt and Joel. Those were the only two people in front of any of us when I started. There was 20 something of, uh, us there. And then at Hoy, I was directly with Mike Looper and Jeremy and Randy. Walk time with Randy was pretty limited because he was definitely more standoff, um, from an external point of view. But I've been part of some major marketing people, big marketing people. And then obviously, honestly, that's what I love to do is I love to tell the why. That's the one thing that's different from me than I think some of the other people I've mentioned is I document the why from start to finish. So to kind of go back when you were asking about the bows, I couldn't bring out a cheap model, and I couldn't bring out the most expensive bow ever at my first year. First year. So just went with a very bulletproof aluminum, um, bow that had some cool features to it, right? Some cool little ideas to it. Um, but it just shot. I built it on the specs of the most forgiving bows, historically, that I had ever shot. I loved 34, and I loved a seven inch brace, um, just based on the geometry of bows at that time, um, and the size of the cams that fit me. Now, shorter bows, the 32 or the 33 with these bigger EC two cams, they actually fit me better than a 34 for myself when it comes to how I like string angle to fit my face. So the NTN was just a bulletproof aluminum bow that honestly fit in the price range between a Matthews and a Hoyt. Like, strategically, that's just what it had to be, because I knew most of the attention was going to be dudley went to PSE, and then that's going to be the new bow. But I felt like people would look at that first model the same as when they look at a model that another TV celebrity has when they say, well, okay, that's actually just this bow. Model X. Yeah, they put a signature on there, which more power to those people. I remember when Michael Waddell first had a bone collector bow. Like, I remember going up to him at, um, the Altech Innovation Show, and I'm like, dude, you got your freaking name on a bow. Because I look back at when Michael and I were, like, 20 years old, and Nick Munt was Bill Jordan's cameraman. It was like Nick's first assignment. Michael didn't have road trips yet. He had just not been a camera guy. And so we started that type of thing where we had these icons that were just on these platforms that were so far above us. And then to all of a sudden go to the show and this guy knows has his name on a bow. I'm like, I can't believe it, dude. And then Cam did one. And honestly, when Cam did one, a bunch of people reached out and they're like, are you upset about it? And I think Vicky did one, too. And I said, I've never asked. Good for those guys to make that part of their deal. I just had never asked. But when PSC came forward and said that, I thought, well, dude, imagine just if you want to do it, you can do it. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it, because they're still going to bring out their models, too. Um, which has been pretty nice. There's been a few overlaps, unfortunately. Um, but I think the levitate is really what opened everyone's eyes.

(14:26):
Was that your pinnacle? Is that you've been working on for a long time, or are you a guy that just you have an idea at 02:00 a.m.. M. And you go and write it down and work on it and then get with the engineers?
Well, what happened, honestly, what happened was PSE had a great carbon bow. The was a great bow. There was parts to it I didn't like. Um, I don't like a cable rod that moves in any shape or fashion. I don't like it if I've ever had a failure on one, it's a bow that's had a dog leg or some type of non solidified cable rod. So, for me, that was out. I was actually there, um, three years ago, and one of the engineers came out with a mock, but it had the DFC carbon in it. And he said, shoot this and let me know what you think. And when I shot it, because the one thing my body does understand, and this is something that I definitely have to give Matt McPherson credit for, because Matt's a musician. So Matt understood frequencies. So when a lot of people say some people pull a bow back, and they go, oh, that aims good, or that point is good, or whatever, matt feels bows like a musician would feel an instrument. And as I learned that, I'm seeing that now, because Matt would talk about things in the frequencies. And vibration, essentially, is a frequency. It's different types of frequencies. So when I first shot that DFC carbon, I just said right away, I want a bow with this material. And I just said, Can I have this before you guys use it? And they're like, yeah, if you want to do a carbon bow this year, you do a carbon bow. So then immediately, I went to what I wanted, and I'm like, I want a wider cam. And they're like, well, we got the Evolve cam. What's up?

(16:23):
And I just that's not notorious for PSE.
Yeah. And I said, Dude, I want a wider cam. I said, I want less spacers. I want to widen that stance out. And I said, I feel like that is going to help stabilize the limb lean, so we widen that platform out. Well, the other thing I said, too, is I'm like everything we put on this bow for accessories. And everything that we take out of this Bow compared to the mock I said I had already visualized. My marketing campaign would be to have a Levitate with a QAD rest on it, spot, uh, hog site. And I had a ten inch stabilizer on it with no end weights. And I'm like, if I can pull a box out that is literally built with a site arrest and a stabilizer, and that thing comes out of the box at the same weight as the Hoyt Carbon in the Matthews, I'm like, that's it. And I knew frequency wise, it felt better than anything that was out there. And I also kind of told them the type of cam that I wanted to feel. And the cam design also comes from based on the riser and the limb length, what you have to do in order to get one of the big questions is, well, what do you want the maximum draw to be? Sorry, 32 inch guys and 33 inch guys, because I definitely hear from you guys. But the thing is, if you look at what the model mix number is for numbers of bows sold in 32 or 33 inches versus the number of bows in 27 that you wouldn't hit if you went to that far end, then that means you have to go up on the low end. And so just from a sales point of view, specifically the model mix, there's way more 27s than there are thirty two s and thirty three s. So based on that, I'm like, I think we need a 31 and a half. If there is a legit 32 out there, I think they can short cable it or long string it and put an extra little bit longer loop on there and they'll make it work. So the cam design came, honestly because of the draw spec that we wanted and we were going to widen that stance out. And then once we did it, um, Kevin was just like, dude, this thing is freaking insanely fast. Like, we're having to check something and it is, it's a freaking crazy fast. In my opinion. The Levitate won Bow of the year last year. M, it's the only PSE that I know of to ever do it. And it's a freaking beast, dude. It should be Bow of the Year again. The Mach 34 is awesome, but I think the speed I think the speed could tip the scale based on the axle axle length. If you ask someone, what do you want, axle axle or the speed, right? But they did bring out the easier cam for both models right now, which a lot of people prefer the easier pull and take the speed sacrifice. So maybe they would have taken the longer. But, um, that bow just literally had no frequency, and everything was simplified. Um, I wanted to have a rear stabilizer, uh, mount option. I personally don't like five sight holes. I like two. Um, I've never needed the other ones. I think most site companies have them. And that was kind of the things that Pete clung to, that pete liked that cable rod that you could the dog leg, because he said, well, when dealers get, uh, a bad tear, they just move the cable rod and get it, and they get back.

(20:27):
And I'm just like, well, set them up, right?
Well, in my opinion, you got to move the cams unless the riser the riser design is critical. Like, grip position is critical, um, for left and rights, and it changes, and it doesn't take much, which you can see from shimming a cam how minimal it is. So I always personally, would have rather just broke the bow down, taken the one thin spacer off the right, move it over to the left. You know what I mean? Rather than do a dog leg, um, that you end up having to put more pressure on to get it to work, honestly, you're putting more torque into your system to literally create a false tune. So the cable rod we put on, I told them, uh, I said, I want a cable rod that when it mounts, it cannot move wraps around the riser. And when they were talking about even set screws to, like, I'm like, dude, JB weld that m*** in there. I'm not kidding when I say I don't want it to move. Right? Um, and I think documenting that why behind all that stuff, and showing the generations like, I showed the generations of the NTN, I showed the generations of, um, the embark. And I think, more importantly, I shot the embark for a year, right? And honestly, when I was working on the embark, um, when I was working on the embark, the Unite was actually like, I already had a Unite. I had a unite before the Levitate.

(22:10):
Okay?
Um, and what happened was, the unite originally was supposed to have a universal attachment system for accessories. And then Matthews came out with the integrate on the back for the rest. And then I was like, crap, uh, because the name unite was about uniting the parts on one singular mounting system. So I ended up holding on to the Unite for two years. And then when I went in and felt that carbon that one of the engineers had, and when PSE is like, yeah, if you want to do a carbon this year, it's all you, so just do what you want. And I'm like, take off. Freaking on. Yeah.

(22:55):
Did you have to do anything limb wise?
Did you have to limbs? Honestly, whoever's doing limbs at PSE credit to you guys because, um, I understand limbs, but honestly, I wouldn't even know, uh, what glass they're using. I don't even know if they have two layers of glass in these, man. Yeah, I probably should know that. But honestly, all I told the main thing was, once we have the riser nailed, and then we need to figure out what draw length we needed to go to for the length. Then at that point, I think it's like, okay, this is going to be the limb length, which makes this brace height. And then this cam can go to this length.

(23:41):
Uh, let's just touch on this, just because I see it right on the riser. And this is my Levitate that I'm holding on to. Dead frequency carbon. You touched on a little bit and you said, yeah, can I have this and run? Can you explain that without or can.
You what I can explain is, um, the carbon process with PSE is really unique. It's got a really unique core system. I'm not totally sure how much I can say, but it's got a really unique core system. And then the carbon actually comes on like big sheets, and it's all laser cut out. I don't know how many pieces it is, but it's a ton. It's like 70 pieces or something. They're all stuck onto this to literally a base material. I can refer to it as that, which is more or less, um, the shape of that riser. And then they're all stuck on there. And then it actually goes through a process to where it heats up to a point where the molecules of all the layers of carbon, they actually fuse together from an expansion process. And it literally, like, imagine just taking layers of carbon that's like, uh, with, like, a sticky back and stacking it all on it, and having this thing that looks like a sandwich, and being able to put enough pressure on that freaking thing to where you can't tell it was separate pieces of layers. It creates one solid layer, so there's multiple layers. So one of the layers of that carbon for that bow was a slightly different material other than carbon. So that in between those layers, there's literally a barrier that has a material that kills vibration.

(25:50):
Vibration?
Yeah.
So correct me if I'm wrong, because we've shot aluminum bows ever since we were little mhm.
And then I had a wood riser. One my first one, actually.
Was it your first?
Yeah, like one of, like those old Brownings that had the super big wood handles, but they had compound like they had glass limbs.
Still have it.
I don't think I still well, honestly, all my bows, all of my first bows are in Matt McPherson's bow, his bow museum.

(26:17):
Okay.
Every bow that I own, because I couldn't afford the down payment to buy my first home. I, um, was like, 20 years old or 21. And I think it was like, 10% down. And he had asked me, like, we were in his bow lab, and he said something about how things were going. And I said, really good. I'm trying to move out of my apartment, so I'm not throwing, like, rent money away. And I said, I'm trying to, uh, get, like, a home. And I told him I found, like, this starter home for, like, 48 grand or something. It was it was 48 grand with closing costs. My first house was 51 grand. And I needed 10% down. I needed $5,000. I didn't have it. So Matt said, do you have anything you want to sell? And I said, the only thing I have to my name is every bow I've ever owned. And so Matt said, bring them all in. And Matt bought every one of my bows, uh, up until my first matthews um, whatever it was, it was like a feather light or something sweet. It was a signature, actually.

(27:31):
So the reason I was asking that, okay, your wood bow is your first, but an aluminum, aluminum, aluminum forever. All through target world and even into your hunting aspect. And now forever. Carbon, correct me if I'm wrong, is stronger when it's bonded than aluminum. Man, it's kind of a loaded question.

(27:51):
We've been told this, but I've seen carbon stuff that's way harder than aluminum. I've certainly seen.
So the reason I'm asking this is because when you dive in for the listeners out there, the bow dudes and gals that go in a little bit further and they understand what riser flex is. Mhm to me as a bow technician, and getting into the carbon world and shooting carbon bows mixed with aluminum tuning issues sometimes are a lot easier. Does it have any correlation?

(28:23):
Yeah, I think so. With aluminum. Um, I always think back to the very first time I went to high country archery and I toured it. I, um, was like, 18 years old. I went and toured high country, um, because I was a high country shooter for the first shop I worked at. Um, and I remember going and seeing all these risers. And at that time, the risers were all cut out of, like they're cut out of kind of like a forge, I guess. So it would resemble, like, if you look down the back of your riser, just imagine that contour of your riser, of your cut out, your sight, uh, cut out, and then your rest cut out. And then where it goes, your grip goes down. So it literally looked like that, but it was a four x eight sheet of it. And then what they do is every six inches, they cut it, and then that piece becomes a riser that's then machined out. So they're literally cutting, like, stamps out of this sheet of plywood, right? You're like, ripping two x fours out of a sheet of plywood wood. And I remember this thing there was like they had three pallets stacked on top of each other. And all the ones on the top were like, pretty straight, and the ones in the middle were kind of bowed. And then the ones at the bottom, the bottom risers were like, bent to the ground between the pallets. And I remember looking there and I'm like, I don't want to be the guy that gets those bows right there. So with aluminum, I think, um, there's definitely variations, um, in kind of that material. And I don't know how aluminum, once it's recycled, how it's processed, but I've certainly seen aluminum that have risers that have broke, where it's clearly a hot and cold joint of an aluminum when it's being reprocessed. So sometimes there's like, hot and cold spots like that where aluminum can just shear and pop, um, and just virtually crack in half. The other thing is probably how hot that thing gets. Like if someone's running one in a machine where maybe, uh, the coolant and the flush that's like, flushing chips off of it and it's also cooling that part. Like, let's say that, uh, thing's not pointed in the right spot. Or maybe it doesn't have good flow. Or as bits start to wear in a CNC machine, they start to get a little bit of wobble in them and stuff. So there's always tolerances. And there's always tolerances. We don't have to say who it's with, but I showed you a rest that's out there. That's a very popular rest. And I'm like, dude, have you ever noticed this? And you're like, no, but with this look of like and then you said, do you want to change it out? And I go, well, no. And you said, what would cause that? Well, that's a perfect example. It's aluminum rest. So you might find one that's tight as heck. And then all of sudden, a you get one where it's a little bit loose. Sometimes you see that, um, with limb pockets, all of a sudden one like your limb pocket to your limb seems like there's more space than others. That is kind of the downside. Um, but carbon is not easy either. It's not easy. But I do know one thing, um, I'm not worried about, like, riser flex on a carbon riser versus I've seen some people just bend risers like a.

(32:16):
Taco shell and you've shot millions of bows. I don't know if that's an astronomical number or not, but that was pretty high.
If you said arrows, I might have been like, probably.
So the cool thing that I experienced and I want listeners to know, like, John and myself, we're not long lasting friends. We met each other today at 10:00, and you built Andy's bow. And we got a chance to see everything. And the very cool thing and again, I'm not bushing my bubble or pimping out anything. Like, I know how to build a bow. I work in a. Pro shop.

(32:50):
Yeah, you work in a great shop.
We go through things, and it's not all about numbers. It's about quality and getting it just in the hour, 25 minutes. The few things, the one thing I respect about you, and you do it on your YouTube videos and you do it on your podcasts and all of your learning sessions is you explain, like you said earlier, the why mhm, this is why this works this way. This is why this has a flaw. And most of your, if not all of your equipment that you have, part of it's not you just sticking your name on it. It's you taking a product and saying, okay, I like A, B and C, but I want De and F included in that. If we can meld those together, then we got something. And that's why your systems work. Granted, you're an ace when it comes to shooting, and 120 yards is no problem, but there's a build behind that's helping you get there.

(33:44):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
So, last year's, Levitate, we've seen all the videos, we've seen all the kills. Everything's awesome. We could put a stick and a piece of yarn in your hand and you'd be successful. But last year's cam versus the EC Two cam.
Yes.
The need for that or why, where did that come from?
Um, the hard thing about that question, and you could almost throw the S Two cam in there as well. Okay, all three of those cams will be the best cam someone's ever pulled. Or one to where it feels a little bit aggressive. Or there'll be people that are like, this freaking cam is awesome. This thing I love the speed, and this one pulls like a round wheel and I don't like it. I mean, there's very different opinions. So, um, the EC Two cam, I asked them to call it the easy cam, because that would really describe it. Like, you wouldn't have to say, well, what's the difference between the easy cam? I mean, it's an easy cam. However, in saying that when you have a modular cam system, there's always going to be one, uh, or possibly two draw lengths that work, but they're not dialed, okay? Because you're literally trying to take this huge curve and make it feel good for everybody. Now, back when Matthews only sold cams in every draw length, dude, Matt, I would build bows and bows and bows and bows a day just for cam generations. It, uh, would be nothing for him to do 100 different versions of a 27 inch because he wanted a perfectly flat knock travel at every draw length, and he wanted to try to get as much speed as he could out of every draw length. Well, from a dealer's point of view, or a consumer who wants to be like, do I want a 27 and a half? Actually, I think I might try a 27, or, hey, I went to my first coach, and he told me I need to change my drawing two inches. Well, you got to buy an $80 cam. So with the modular cams, you don't have that issue. But what you do have is you're going to have a draw length that doesn't feel as good as the other ones. And so, for me, on the EC Two cam, which is the new one, the worst feeling slot of that entire cam from A to what, G or something?

(36:32):
Well, you can go all the way.
To L. Oh, that's right. That one's like the whole alphabet. The worst feeling one of all for me is the A slot, which is what I have to be in for my draw length. It's the max. What I don't like, I don't like short valleys, and I don't like when the poundage hits right at the very end. And with that one, as you're totally maxing that out, that's what happens. You feel really smooth and almost too smooth until you have to get the seven pounds at the last inch or something. Um, which a lot of people like. That like Andrew right here, Andy's, like, when he pulled it back, he's like, oh, that is so smooth. And I'm like, do you like how it feels like right at the end? He's like, what are you talking about? But I also am very methodical when I draw, so I'm like feeling all that. Um, I don't like to bang into the stop. I really try to feel the poundage the whole way, and I'm really trying to feel my mind muscle connection as I'm doing that. Whereas if I feel like I would just grab a big old fistful of that sucker, right? Like, when I have to build that bow on the right up there is like, 110 pounds. Yeah. So that one I don't pull back like I do the other ones. Like that one, I got to get a fistful, a string, and rip that sucker back. So when I'm feeling every part of that cam cycle on most situations, um, I like when it's a little smoother back there, right? And honestly, what was really interesting was when we did the EC two cam, the one thing that just kept coming up with me and Kevin was that in the two longest slots, it actually felt so much better than um anything? That the last two slots on the old EC two cams. The end of that cam feels like the middle of the old cam.

(38:47):
Right.
So he was like, Dude, feel this. And he was right. So I actually shoot my Levitate at 31, even for hunting, where normally I would go to a 30 and a half when I hunt. But I just love that B position.
Is, like, just it's different for me. So all of us Botex, we're all different draw lengths at the shop, right? We go from 30 and a half down to 28, which is awesome.

(39:14):
Customers. That's great.
When I put this Levitate, I just set it to my draw length. One a half inch longer than what I should record, but that's just what feels good. And I'm in slot C mhm, and it feels like butter. But when I grab we tune one on Monday and we built it. And he was on letter J.

(39:35):
So you're at a 30 and a.
Half in that 30.
Uh, wait, do you have an EC two?
This is EC 229 and a half.
Yeah, dude, right there. That thing feels better than any cam out there.
I draw his boat back and I'm like, okay, did I do something wrong? And then I grab mine, I'm like, okay, that's home. And then unfortunately, but fortunately, I don't have to shoot the A and B. But, uh, I understand what you're saying about that. And also the cool thing about PSE and the Cams that you have is the 90, 85, 80% let off.

(40:13):
Oh, yeah, they've got the best back end, they have a great let off, and they have a really good feeling back wall. Like, ah, I said it's the most underrated high end bow on the market. They really are. They really are.

(40:37):
Um, and you know the cool thing about the pro shop, all you have to do is let them shoot it.
Yeah.
It's not a big, huge sales push. It's not a jam it down your throat.
Just here, shoot it. There's been several bows through the years. Um, that, that's been the case. Like when I was at Matthews, the MQ one and then the switchback were two. That just stand out in my mind of because I think the switchback year, we actually sent one bow to every dealer and we put on the not for sale on the limbs. Because we're like, if someone can shoot this one time, it's just like, they're going to look around like, how slow is this thing? And then you're going to be like, no, that's shooting 300ft a second. Back then it was like three, five, or 310. So, um, that was one, then the other one was the carbon matrix. Here we are a decade later, hoyt comes in with the carbon matrix and people are like, what in the freak is that? And then you shot it and you're like, oh, d***.

(41:45):
I actually bought a bow that said Demo. It had the white lettering on the limbs.
You could buy them after twelve months. Yeah, that was actually the rule. Um, and then for me, I think the Levitate was like that too, where at one shot it was just like, whoa, that's different. When you have those types of years, it's pretty freaking awesome. And that's a cool thing about shops. Like, you were telling me, um, at your guys'shop, um, was it Russ, did you say? Who is your owner that pulls the bows apart? Sorry.

(42:28):
Oh, Jake.
Oh, Jake.
Jake.
Um, so you were saying when new bows will come in, jake will get that bow, but he'll fully break it down, make it into a skeleton, and then rebuild it so he kind of understands what actually is different about it. Um, that's such a cool protocol to do, because, um, a lot. Like, um, when you came here and I grabbed, um, a knock on QAD rest, right? And I just said, do you know why our rests are different out of the package? And you're like, uh, no. Why? And I'm like, okay, rs all have this shim block put on them, and the launcher arms are all shifted to this screw setting. And I said, and then when you put it on the riser like this, and we tightened it down, dude, it's like center shot.

(43:19):
And I said, Home.
And I said so if you were a shop owner, m and your employee had to unpackage every QAD to then put a spacer in it. And then the longer screw remember the washer if you don't drop it. And then remove the smallest screws on the planet to hold the launcher arm on, remove those, shift it over, and then as a protocol, I always put purple loctite on those when I put them back in. So, I mean, there's like, ten minutes every rest that, uh, your technician is spending to just assemble it correctly out of the package to work on these new bows that have thicker risers. So ours are all mandatorily assembled that way, because I want to take them out of my package like I did for Andrews. We really didn't even have to move it. I mean, that was pretty lucky, but yeah, we didn't even have to move it. And it's like, right on. And then for me, it's the details of before I ever worked at bow companies, I worked for an archery shop, and then I owned my own shop.

(44:30):
Really?
Yeah. I literally opened my own shop when the guy that I worked for said, if you're not going to charge people for your coaching and their time here, if you're coaching them, then he said, you should open your own. I told him if I spend more time with them and make them better, they will always come back. If they leave here and they're no good, they won't like it. They're not going to buy another one. And he just said, kid, that's a great idea. You should do that when you have your own store. He's like, maybe you should open one. And I just thought, hey, yeah, uh, we've got a freaking horse barn out there. I'll do it. And that's what I did. Started ten ring archery in Helenville, Wisconsin. When I was doing those jobs, I didn't like taking a freaking golden key TM hunter out of the package and have to sit there and fight that crooked a** little launcher, trying to get it tight without it spinning out on you. I didn't want to do any of that, right? Honestly, the best freaking thing about the Whisker Biscuit is because any person assembling a bow can have that thing going so much faster. And the bottom line is, from the consumer's point of view, you don't want that guy spending ten more minutes on your bow. You want ten minutes of his time in the range showing you how to shoot. So, like, you know, that's why, like, hey, I'm, um for me, if I can have products for a shop like Levitates, you're not having to shim that thing. You take a Levitate, you take one of our rest out of the package, and you assemble the spot hog exactly how our directions are written. You're freaking shooting a dynamite setup that's freaking bulletproof, and you can do it d*** fast. Set it up, and then you've got more time with that customer. Especially when they come in and they're like, uh, dude, I'm going on a hunt, like, Saturday with my buddies, right? I don't know. They told me I need a bow. What do I got to do? It's like, you don't want them having to assemble, take the rest apart, put a block in it, put it back together.

(46:54):
So that kind of just steers us right down a simple path that I can ask a question because we are a pro shop interviewing you. We're having a podcast. Thank you, too, and thank you for the opportunity. How important is it? There's pro shops spread all over the world. But in north america, how important is it in your mind telling consumers out there because they have to go to a pro shop to get your bow or the levitate, and to get a pro shop where, one, they're friendly enough, knowledgeable enough, but yet have the inventory so that you can try different things? Like, earlier, I asked you this question off air just to kind of preload the question. You said, like, a pro shop is the lifeblood of what we do. Yeah, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

(47:46):
He said, Can I ask you, like, a question about pro shops? I'm like, Bro, what are you talking about? They're the lifeblood of keeping this whole thing going. Listen, my dream would be that every town or within every 30 miles, any human could find an archery shop. And when they went in that shop, that shop was, like, presentable to people that are non hunters. It, um, had dudes behind the counter that the owner paid to listen to all the good podcasts, to watch videos like mine and others and have those guys totally in tune with what the heck is going on. Probably more so throughout the industry than even myself, because I'm very singular in the directions that I have to look. A lot of times I'll be at a shop and I'll be like, oh, dude, that's freaking cool. I didn't know they did that because I'm not seeing all these other companies all the time. So if a person had that every 30 miles, I would love that. And honestly, every shop that is out there, every one of you have the tools, all the tools that shops like yours. Archery country. I mean, you guys are archery country. Archery Country, Texas. They're a freaking great shop. They let every one of their employees listen to it. Like if knock on podcast comes out, take time, go listen to it. I mean, new video comes out, watch it. Every shop has the ability to give their honestly, their customers that privilege of being up to date and stock product. I mean, that's another one when people ask me, hey, can you refer me to a shop? There's been a lot of shops I've gone into that have nothing on their walls. So I'm supposed to send someone in there. I'm going to find a shop like you guys that freaking put the money out. You've stretched the money out and you've got everything for them to look at on the wall. Well, that's dude, I'm going to be like, hey, you can go 30 minutes and see nothing or I'm going to send you 5 hours. And these guys are a legit shop. And there's ones in our industry where you just know their name, right? You do. Um, and the sad thing is every shop has that ability, but not everybody does. But on the flip side of that, there's also some areas. There's some small towns that have some freaking wringers dude. There's some what we would refer to as basement bandits. Back when we were really trying to find dealers that were storefront brick and mortar dealers. Nowadays, there's some freaking aces in the hole. And yeah, they might have to call a Lancaster and order all your stuff or something. But that's what's awesome is maybe that's the only place this guy has 30 miles away. But if he wants to get into archery, he can go to that kid. That kid is like building freaking setups based off everything. He's watched the main freaking horseman of our industry putting content out there, right? He's watched everything they've done. And he's freaking better than that shop that has an old owner. I've built those forever. I don't need to be told what's going on now. Well, sorry you're getting passed. And those are the shops when people say, well, how come you didn't recommend this? I'm like, well, man, you got to have product. You got to have up to date knowledge behind your counter. You got to have shooters, people that shoot. And you have to have the passion for customer service. If you got those things, uh, if you've got those four things, send me a letter and show me who you are. I will put your name on our website and be like, this is a legit freaking dealer. And we've talked about that. We've talked about actually doing something where I can post certified knock on approved people. Because I can tell you, dude, when you came in with your stuff, my brain processes a set up like that when you watch The Terminator and you see him scan people. I'm slow at talking, and I'm slow at a lot of things I do, but I have this stupid ability to find something wrong with things. And whether it's four leaf clovers, I can find those on a full pace walk.

(52:35):
They just stick out.
But when I looked at your set of them, like, this is freaking cool. And I showed you the one thing on where you tied the cable. I kind of asked you about that. To me, it was interesting. It was different. So I liked seeing it. And I was looking at your peep. Um, both of those are like, I want to ask the why to them. But then I also said, okay, that's cool. Here's why I do it the way that I do it.

(53:06):
M. And that's something I asked Andy on the way down. We've known each other forever. I'm like, I don't want to walk in there and be the starstruck, dude. And he's like, no, he's completely honest. In the first five minutes we talked, you didn't put me down. You didn't say, like, dude, that is not right.

(53:26):
You didn't give me a chance.
Well, we're still here for a little while.
We haven't shot yet.
We haven't shot, um, but no, I appreciate that. But the cool thing is there's reasonings for certain things, and then the explanation is there. Yeah, I just listened to a podcast. I think it was the Pros and.

(53:47):
Projectiles, uh.
That you did.
Who is it with?
Gentleman from Oregon. You guys talked about turkey hunting?
Oh, me and Mike. Mike Slinkard from Hex.
And the thing about the whole arrow aspect came up and heavy FOC. And that pertaining there's so much out there that is good, and then there's something that it's great. And then there's a lot that's just s*** about arrows and how to build your arrows. Having that knowledge at your fingertips, and then having quality companies like Easton in The House and Victory and some other that we'll name but or, uh, won't name. You can build an arrow to match your bow. You have to yeah. Have to, um, get the full experience.

(54:38):
Yeah. So I always tell people I build bows and I tune arrows. Um, there's so many options on arrows because the arrow really has to be perfectly fitted. Like in golf clubs. You know how if you really get a pair of good clubs, the shaft, the smallest details of the shaft is incredible for what your golf game does. Right. And then how that shaft even affects your head angle on your club and stuff. An arrow is the same thing. You can have an arrow that's one spine apart, but, like, two totally different beasts. Um, and so with Easton, they have so many options because they understand that, and I think they've become such a monster, they can be that finite, which is, in my opinion, what sets Easton apart. Uh, there's some great arrows out there, and there's some new companies that make a great product, but they don't have the diversity that Easton does. And Easton understands that. And when you look at, like, Olympic medals, m, and honestly, we need to look at target archery for the capabilities of a bow. Here's the problem with hunters. The problem right now is hunters are trying to take a lot of information from people trying to have something new and different with arrows. So there's these super hard helicals are coming back. Um, left helicals coming back. Listen, none of this is new, and none of this has ever won a medal, right? So the arrows that are behind you are all arrows that have won medals. And those arrows and honestly, I'm not even much of a medal winner, but I can tell you right now, you look at, like, Dave Cousins, m, that dude, Dave is not out shooting a three degree helical. I mean, call me dude if you are. I want to ask why, but we found out that there's literally diminishing return the faster you start spinning something. Yeah, it corrects. Faster. Um, but we all grew up shooting 30, 50, 70, 90 meters. That was our tournaments. And then medals were won at 70 meters. Well, all that's been brought so far in now it's 50 meters. So, I mean, listen, at 50 meters, yes, that thing can still be accurate, but once it's spinning for a longer distance, starts to slow down faster, and starts to lose accuracy. So that's why the sonic arrows that we do, um, it's a slightly lower offset than I have on the others, because that's just an awesome long range projectile. I want it to be a crossover arrow, whereas and honestly, through testing, I've just found that that four fletch and the two and a half degree for a right, it stabilizes, it keeps a broad head on, and I just go off how they group, like, we can talk about how they fly off a string. We can talk about how a bear shaft flies through a piece of paper. And a lot of times, yes, these things have similarities in the end. Like, I can have a bow that shoots a bullet hole, and I also could have a bow that has a perfect French tune and it shoots a bullet hole. I can have a bow that has a perfect French tune and it shoots a bear shaft perfectly. But I've also had bows that outshot any of that. That had a maybe one had a high left tear coming out, and that's just how it was. But after freaking ten yards, that thing just I had bows that could just shoot X's at 90 meters X's through my shooting machine. And I would just sit there and shoot tons through the shooting machine and then go and move, uh, the clamp, like, literally, what would be equal to a half a degree reflex? Another three. Shoot them down there. These were all things that I did, and I think now, I think a lot of the old timers did it, too, because they could have had six fletch, they could have had high profile, they could have had 300 grains on the front of their arrow. But honestly, when it comes down to what is like the most dead accurate, ridiculous shooting projectile down range, most of the time, it was a low profile vein at one and a half degrees with 125 grains in the point of it. And that's what it was. Dude, how many 3D shoots do you professional 3D shoots have been won with, like, I don't know, an average of 110 grains in the front of the arrow?

(01:00:06):
Probably quite a few.
Yeah. There was just never h*** when I was in 3D. Everyone was trying to get 280ft a second. There were people shooting. Cool. 30s. I've got them. They're 30 grain points. We shot 30 grain points in 20, 312s in the pro class. Really? Uh, yeah, because some the bows were dead slow. Like, the bows were 290ft a second. IBO.

(01:00:35):
Right?
IBO. So you're out there having to shoot d*** near five grains per pound at one time to get speeds like that. Yeah.
So you brought up the target archery look to the target archers where metals are won.
Yeah.

(01:00:55):
Speaking of releases, there's not very many medals, uh, that are won with a true fire smoke finger style, you know what I mean?
There's a few index finger shooters that have their time on the tournament podiums, but normally we get them shoot off by the next year. But listen, when they're on, like, get out of the way, they're going to freaking they are going to do something you don't think humanly possible and it shouldn't be. Yeah, but then, um, I don't know, just kind of let them cook a little bit and bring them back the next year.

(01:01:36):
Normally they and I bring that up because of the releases that you work with, and you've instilled this program. We talk about, Andy has a good friend, and they can even talk about me. At some point in my career, I was ready to quit because I didn't have the learning or knowledge to work through a release. I could go spend three grand on a bow, and I have pimped out arrows in the sight and everything was perfect. But I didn't know how to execute my release to finish my shot sequence, to again, have an end result. That was the anticipation of the whole beginning anyways.

(01:02:13):
Yeah.
And there's a lot of people out there that will spend the money on the equipment minus the release they think just a release is a release. And then they don't pay $0.05 for the knowledge on how to work or shoot everything. And we probably see it a lot more on our end than you. But you've been traveling with the TAC and you see a plethora of things out there. But I think as archery as a whole, not just target archery, but archery as a whole, hunters that are going to these events, they're seeing things. It's opening the eyes and they can see instant success. They can relive their archery career and boost it to where, okay, now I'm lethal. Again, just a little bit of knowledge.

(01:02:57):
Listen, you don't want any part of the tax shooters. I'm just going to tell you because someone might show up with one of those old school setups on day one or year one, but they're leaving with, uh, a Movable site with a 100 yard mark on it by the end of the freaking thing.

(01:03:19):
Right?
Like, they're walking out of there with a target site. They're already looking at different arrows, they're already buying different veins, and these people come. I mean, uh, it's just weird for me that a twelve year old will come up and you'll be like, hey, buddy, you want to maybe take a few little pokes at this? At 100, they're like, I got it. And then just drop a bomb in there and they look like me, but like 150 pounds lighter. And I'm just like, oh my God, this kid doesn't even have braces yet and he looks perfect. And they're just dropping bombs. Archery is going to just become a game of perfection very soon, within the next decade. It's very cool. At the time when I came up, I couldn't even imagine the ones that were before me. Like ragsdale, right? Or J bars, like people like that. Um, when I came up, we were still really learning secrets and we were still playing with types. Um, I showed you the very first true ball handheld release right in there. And all the hundreds, if not 1000, that I've done with Jerry. Um, we never knew. What if we put our D loop underneath until you went to a freaking tournament and tried it. Or like, I'm going to put my D loop above. Or it's just like all this weird stuff Omer would show up with. He shot a revenger backwards. He would draw it laid the other way. Dude, he'd flip the head around.

(01:05:18):
Really?
Yeah. So it was like the most weird looking claw hand you've ever seen when he'd hold it at full draw. But he came and won a tournament that way. So then everybody flipped the heads on their releases and I mean, there were people punching themselves in the face the next tournament. And then he had already changed and went back to something else. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I remember when he showed up with like. Little one inch veins, and everyone's just like, what the heck? And then he had some of those light freaking points that flight Mate was making on kind of the side. We were learning all these things. The archery books were just more on recurves, and they just weren't like compound archery was just making it was kind of like all of a sudden having a wheel, and then someone's got a bike, and then someone puts a motor on a bike, and then now there's freaking four wheelers. There's two wheelers, there's semi truck. That was compound archery.

(01:06:29):
When I got in, right?
It was the time where next thing, when someone hits 300ft a second, holy crap. It was like, what the heck is this? And honestly, I remember I bought a PSEG force because it was 300ft a second. It was, like, first thing, and it was just I mean, it was the worst thing to experience ever. When you shot it, it was like a five inch brace height. All the risers were super short. It was all limb, and they were pretty much vertical. So you just had this thing just like a tuning fork just buzzing in your hand. So, um, it was cool to come up in that era. Now all the free information we've put out there alone, I don't hide back anything. Knock on archery is about growing the sport of archery. That's what I want to give back. I want to retire from archery, giving everything I've learned back. And honestly, when I come up with new subjects, it's just because someone reminded me. It's not because I'm learning something. And that's why the tax for me, I'm so passionate about it because I interact with every single person that shoots our range. Um, I'm there and then I'm in the village, and so I literally get to talk to thousands of people, and that's when I get ideas. So for me, when people are like, sorry to take some of your time, I'm like, tell me. You could be the next person that gives me the ability to help everybody else in our community.

(01:08:19):
Exactly.
So that's why when people are like, how do you do it all day and not turn off? Because, yeah, dude, I'm worn out. Like, I smoked physically and at night, mentally, I can't turn it off. I have to take something to go to sleep. Um, at the tax, because I'm just like, on, but no different than that person's coming up to me. And that's literally whether if it's the 15th hour of the day, that's the ten minutes they got. Well, in that ten minutes, this person could give me another tool to help everyone else. So I'm like, what you got, dude?

(01:09:01):
Where are you from? And there's not anybody look at my setup.
Can you look at my setup? I've tried everything, but how come I can't get this right? I'm like, oh, dude, here's what it is. And then I go to my phone, I'm like, all right, there's a new one. And honestly, I got asked the question in Montana. Um, well, I posted a video two days ago, the six to nine drill, and the amount of people that are very seasoned archers that have texted me, and they're like, dude, I can't freaking believe how good I shot last night. When I started thinking about that, they're like, how have I never not known this? Uh, and that's the thing. High level target archers, they have to learn it. I was never told it, but listen, honestly, I grew up shooting with, in my opinion, the all time greatest archer, dave Cousins. M dave is still doing it at a level that's insane. He's kept up, and he was doing it pretty d*** close to that level when no one told him how. And honestly, Dave was the first person that him and I opened up to each other, and he would know that I was on the trail of figuring something out. Like, when I figured out X ten S, he knew it because he saw me shooting. And he looked over and he goes, you figured them out, didn't you? And I go, yes. And he pretty much just said, don't you dare talk about it. And then, honestly, um, when we competed against each other in the very first, uh, field trials or field tournament, um, I was ranging the unmarked round the way everybody else thinks you have to do it, but it's not, like, super accurate. And that method because you're drawing back and you're framing. At that time, everyone was framing with their bubbles. There's just a different process to draw back and line up on the target. And then you'd have to let your bow down, then you'd have to set your sight and go right. Um, well, there was another method that had to do with the position of your magnification, the size of your dot and where the dot would perfectly align, and then, uh, adjusting your sight length to where your dot would perfectly align on the dead center at 40 meters. And then, mathematically, every single ring was 5 meters as a system. So, like, uh, Dave and I could range out to 100 meters within a yard. And when I figured that out for the second time, um, because I could tell just how he was framing, like, when he'd draw back and he was pointing at the target, I could tell something was different. So I just started paying attention. Paying attention. And then I think the next time he saw me, my sight length was different. So he kind of, like, looked at me. And then, honestly, there was one small part of the puzzle that I didn't know. And I think he knew I was going to get there. Plus, honestly, he knew I was on his team, and he wanted us to kick a** where we were going. Um, and he just goes, you have to divide by five. And I just said, oh, yeah, once that happened. And honestly, um, he was the first person to where I was actually able to train with. I've always liked training with people that are better than me. Um, and Dave was certainly better than me. So we would shoot together, we would train together. And then once I traveled internationally and I met, like, Chris White or when I met Clint Freeman, I would train. And I would fly these people into tournaments early to just to shoot with me, because one, I would watch them, but two, it was also a way of kind of acclimating around them to where I didn't feel nervous shooting with them. Like day one of the tournament, uh, because by then we had shot together for quite a while. And when you get to a certain level during my time, there was probably ten guys that could win on any given day if the same round was shot. Well, h***, now there's probably 50, right?

(01:14:11):
Mhm.
There'S probably 50 that would be like that. And the amount of people that totally could shoot perfection, there's probably ten of them that could shoot perfection almost any day on a given day. That certainly wasn't the case when we were around, right? Uh, it's like someone would maybe do that every now and then, but now there's a lot of people that are capable of that. But the one that's going to stand out for a small blip of time is going to be the one that didn't just meet this chick that he needs staying there until two in the morning every day. Or didn't. Just have a baby or didn't, um, just have to start their new job and they don't have vacation, or they moved from the country into the city, and now they don't have a place to practice. When I was out there, I could shoot 50 meters in the backyards every night. Those small little things are the only thing that change the faces of who's our best at the time. When that person who is the best at the time all of a sudden has one thing come up in his life where now, uh, he just had his first kid. Then just the timeline changes. A new shark comes up, starts feeding.

(01:15:41):
Because they're all there waiting.
Yeah, all they're waiting.
Do you ever get the itch to go back and compete? Like, is it past? Is it every day?
Freaking 18 to 27 years old of myself would kick the s*** out of me. Yeah, I know. Right now. There was ten years of my life that would beat the s*** out of me right now without thinking about it. And like I said, there's 100 of those guys now. M. So you're either all in or you're not even in, right? I told someone's like, well, dude, just come shoot. I go, Dude, I'll give you $250 for the entry, because that's all I'm going to do. I'm going to go donate it. Because in the end, I can tell you that I'll get ready and I'm going to shoot for the next month. The reality is I'll probably have two real training days in the next three weeks because I'm going to walk out there and start practicing. And the freaking pool guy calls or I'm going to go out there, and then Andy calls and says, hey, we need pictures of this for this next patent or whatever. There's no way I could do it. And so it would just be like, if you want to see me shoot, come to attack. Yeah, you know, if people want to shoot, see me shoot. Come to attack. Challenge me. Listen, uh, some people challenge me. Some people just want me to shoot. Or honestly, I don't even shoot unless someone asks. But yeah, I feel like I'm shooting way better than I think a 47 year old person should shoot. But I honestly felt that way at, like, 46 and 45. 44. I, um, feel like for archers, the older you get, the better for me. Just because my don't give a s*** factor is just, uh, at a way different level. Like, if someone's like, what happens if that kid beats you? I'm like, dude, I've shot thousands of competitions. I have won, uh, a couple of handfuls. That's just another day in the park for me, man. There's some really good people. And the crazy thing about archery and honestly, the reason another question I get asked, why didn't you ever try out for the Olympics? Or why didn't you ever go for Olympic recurve? There's no way I want to base four years of my life on ten minutes of weather that I can affect. Um, and at my draw length and at my stature, when the wind is blowing, I am blowing all over the place. I'm a huge frame. That's why if I go outside and it's just gusting wind, dude, I'll turn around and come in and shoot at, like, five yards because I just don't want to have to deal with wind at my size. So, uh, there's no way I wanted to train for four years of my life to then go to the Games. And, uh, I remember seeing some of them, and it's like sideways sheets of rain. I'm just like, dude, you'd just be out there, um, just flinging arrows open super long arrows that are ballistically inferior to the short guys.

(01:19:13):
Anyway, I got one more question, and then we'll get back to our day. Because this is one of your only days that you probably have off.
I gave you the whole day.
So the hunting aspect, I hate the word professional hunter.
Yeah. Um, I agree.
I respect guys like yourself. And you brought up Michael Waddell. And there's becoming some really good, strong, um, mentors. You do the greatest job of teaching on that. But hunting you're such a huge standalone for that when it comes. So you're at every TAC, and you're running a business, and you're busy every day and still have time for personal life. Is hunting your getaway or is it a job?

(01:20:00):
No, it's my getaway. And truthfully, it started to feel like a job. Um, not this past season, but the season before that. And it was a really hard thing because I wanted to grow archery so bad that every person that had a platform that was asking me to build them a bow or take them on a hunt, I was not turning it down because, uh, there was just such a boom during that whole COVID span where it was like I don't know, I think I did, like, 50 celebrity builds for the NTN, and then it was like, 100 the next year. Honestly, there's some people that I deal with that are very high profile, and they're like, they're not going to be seen. I'm not going to brag about or anything, uh, but they're people that I know is good for archery. And then I start going on those hunts, and then I'm on the hunt. I'm honestly saying, like, hey, I want to hunt with you on the first day. And then they make some small mistake and they move at the wrong time. And then I'll just can I come out with you in the morning? Because I'm, like, wanting to see them get their first animal. Well, next thing you know, it's like, there's one day left, and I'm like, hey, I got to go out on my like, I got to go try to get something. And then I end up kind of, like, shooting more on a rush. Uh, I felt like most of my personal season felt like the last day of your hunt. It's like, okay, last full day of the hunt, I got to get something. And then also it's just, um I don't want to call it babysitting, but there's, like, a switch that goes off in me when it's, like, kill time to where, like, my intensity. If there's ever an chance where, like, I'm gonna do something really dumb, it would be like that moment between I could take a shot and kill this thing right now, or you just screwed it up. I could fly off the handle in that little particular moment because I'm just so hyper focused. Um, so I had to just tell people, like, hey, you guys can do this on your own. You got it. You went to a spot. You know what an elk hunt is like, you know what a freaking DIY hunt is the first place I went with Andy Stump, we went up to Alberta. And you have to have an outfitter as a non resident to get a tag. Um, but when you're a bow hunter, you're also not like it's not like you're holding the hand of a guide. Like, at least the ones that I'm with, they let you hunt, right? Um, all these different people. Um, and I wish I could hunt with Andy more, truthfully. But I was just hunting for everyone else. And then I actually need to hunt for the content for all of you, too, because some of the people I'm hunting with, I can't put on camera, right? So I'm, like, giving all of my time to this person and then I'm trying to rush through mine so that I'm not leaving everyone. That's a knock on nation person hanging. You know what I mean?

(01:23:47):
Right.
Um, and so, I don't know, I kind of got to the point where I just told everyone, like, you can do it. Book a hunt here's where you can go here. Hey, you two guys. You guys should do something together. I'll get your equipment ready. You make sure you're ready and go hunt. Have fun. So I just took the training wheels off of probably 80% of my falls for the two or three years prior. I just took all those training wheels off and just, like, went to Alberta with two of my closest buddies. And, um, actually an outfitter that I just love. The family, like, red wheel outfitters. Well, it's just a family of teas. They all have tease as a name at the low ones. They're like family. And I went right to that. I went to that. Didn't stay in the lodge, stayed out in the camper, uh, with my buddies. And then I came back and went to New Mexico with one friend. And we just got to freaking shoot during the day and have a singular conversation with a person. No, like clicks and clicks and this team and that team and these guys a show and that guy's a show and that guy's a show. And their media team. It was just like, me and my one buddy, he introduced me to a freaking beer that I'm just like, why have I never had a speckled speckled in M? So it was just like and honestly, I was like, Keto. Um, and he told me, he said if I shoot a bull or if I shoot this bull, um, he said, I don't know. We made a bet on, like, if someone had a kill. He asked if I would eat fried, um, chicken and waffles with him. And he said, and have a speckled hen. And I'm like, that sounds like the weirdest combination, dude. But I go, Yep. I said, if we draw blood, I'll break Keto. And so sure. S***, dude. Shot something in the morning. So that night there was like this whole, like we had the waffles, the chicken, uh, the speckled hen.

(01:26:08):
Did your body relapse?
Dude, I felt like Anthony Ketus, like, freaking hitting the crack pipe on another go round, dude. I was just like, what is this? Yeah, because I think we did like a sriracha, honey, uh, butter to go on that and d***, son. Yeah.

(01:26:30):
So we see that aspect, uh, of your life sometimes on your videos and you're cooking. And we got blessed with the opportunity today. So the way that this for the people that are listening to this, the way it laid out is we come down here, we built Andy's bow. I got the knock on school. Uh, I guess you could say I learned a few things. We shot our bows a little bit. And then all of a sudden we get called in for lunch. And you'd slipped away in steaks and a nice cheese platter and everything. Has that become because you've lost a ton of weight, you look phenomenal. The health, obviously, is number one priority. But is food like a new area? Has it always been you know what's.

(01:27:12):
Funny is, um, I always cooked like venison and wild game and stuff. Um, but it was just like meat. It was just meat. Um, the difference came. So, uh, a guy called me from Traeger and he called me and he got my number from somebody. And he said, I want to send you a Traeger grill. And I just said, I just got a Weber grill for Father's Day, dude, like the day before this call, right? I go, I just got a Weber grill. And he's like, well, I mean, I'm going to send it to you. And I just said, Dude, I'm good. And he goes, it's going to change your life for a wild game. He's like, if you just cook two things on it for me. And I just said, tell you what, I'll buy the grill. And I said, uh, if I don't like it, I'll sell it. And he goes, how about this? He goes, I'll sell you the grill right now. And he said, and I'm going to charge your card in two days unless you call me M. And I go, all right, whatever. And listen, dude, I'm telling you right now, the only thing that would make me call him is the fact that it was that good. Because I was just going to I mean, there's a couple of things in my bowcase, in the garage out there that people come up to me at events and they show me, like, their idea. And they'll want to give it to me. But I always say, listen, I know what it's like. Let me buy it. And then I'll try it and I'll tell you what I think. So I just said, dude, send me the grill. Yeah, okay, whatever. I'll put this thing at a campsite or something. And man, I cooked. And I came in. And this is the other thing about me. I have partnerships and relationships with my partners. I don't sell out to products I don't like. I really don't. Um, so I wanted to experience that brand as a consumer. So when that grill came, I opened it up, I got the instructions out. And I'm like, if I represent this company, what is someone going to experience? So I open it up and it's like, step one, grab a six pack. I was like, what the h***? And I go, this is freaking and I started flipping through the things. And the further your progress as your grill is building, it shows you how many beers should be out of your six pack. And I'm like, this is freaking cool. So I built the grill and then I did the startup cycle or whatever did the burn off. And then I literally went in with the book, the cookbook that came with the grill. And I walked in, I gave it to Harry, and I said, pick anything in that book you want me to cook. And he picked, um, I think the first thing he picked was like, ribs. So I'm like, all right. So I just literally read this simple instruction, went and bought ribs. And I wasn't a rib cooker and literally freaking did it. And the family was just like, what the h*** was that? Where did that come from? And so then I gave him the thing the next day and asked him, uh, what he wanted. The first day, I think, was beef ribs. And then he did, ah, I think the next one was like pulled pork b*** or something. And so I freaking did a pulled pork b*** and just changed the thing. And then I thought, um, you know what? I'm going to try this. The others were so good. But I'm like, I'm going to try this with Wild game. So I took, um, it was either a whitetail or an elk back strap out. And I freaking cooked that thing, like whole, like just a full roast and then sliced it. But I did it, like, exactly how it said. And holy crap, sharon and Harry just cleared their plates. They didn't know that it was Wild Game.

(01:31:36):
Really?
Yeah. They were just like, holy. They go, what are we eating tonight? And I go, steak. And they're like, is it off the traeger? And I go, yeah. And so, um, I got the grill on a Friday. So Sunday night I call Tyler and he picks up the phone and he goes, well, I lost $10. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, I bet the Under Armour guys, you would have called me by Saturday. And I'm like, dude, I should have called you Saturday. I really wanted to. I'm like, but I had to try the elk on Sunday. And I said, but yeah, man, this thing's freaking a game changer. So what I tell people is one of the partners I'm most thankful for, um, as a person is Traeger. Because everyone in our industry and everything in our industry is designed to kill something. Dude, we were never showed how to cook it. Honestly, Traeger came along and Traeger totally changed what we're finding as recipes and stuff for wild game cooking. I mean, Babe Winkleman did it. If you couldn't watch Babe or Babe's Wife, then you maybe didn't learn any outdoor cooking. But Traeger gave the outdoor industry the tool it needed to make their kills taste better. And honestly, Traeger, I think, and yeti bridge the gap between non hunters and people with an open mind that are looking for sustainable food source. They are the two that made that water not as rough, because it's like, okay, this company is showing how to cook amazing wild game. This company is showing how people are literally hunting for food, because yeti the yeti stories were just, I think, uh, such an important thing for the industry during that time. Their short films were great. And then, honestly, then Traeger came in and started doing it. Then companies like Sica started, and then obviously Renella and then Meteor, um, do such a great job of showing that bridge. But having the companies to bridge the gap was also important.

(01:34:12):
Absolutely. The aspect of archery as a whole, the growth, the continued growth. Have we reached a peak yet?
No. Um, and really, what a lot of people can't quite believe, i, um, think when they see knock on I don't know, it's just an energy. It's an energy, and it's a whole new crowd. And so none of my target crowd from back when I competed, or just that side of target archery, when they see that what's happening? Attack, they're like, what the heck is going on? I didn't fight for our own pie. We built a new one. We m baked a new pie, and it was giving free education to anyone that wanted to apply time to become an archer. And there is a lot of people, especially during COVID that had never shot a bow or anything and ordered one through the mail and watched the school a knock and literally learned to shoot, learned to build a bow, did it. And now they're at tax shooting, 100 yard bigfoots, and they're like, dude, I had never even shot a bow until I was stuck in my yard and built this entire thing. And I can see it, um, when they walk up, I'm like, yes, everything on that is something I've taught. And then they come up, they're like, what do you think of my bow? Dude, built this from everything you showed me. It's the most rewarding thing. But the pie that I've started to bake with the new archers, and granted, listen, the biggest ingredient that came into that was Joe Rogan. Like, Joe Rogan putting my passion in front of millions of people brought people saying, like, hey, I was thinking about trying archery. And so, um, people like Rogan, honestly, companies like Black Rifle coffee coming in, jocko, Andy Stump, putting me in front of the entire military crowd, and then, honestly, that completely like, igniting a bigger passion in me is trying to come up with something that's good for the people from our military services that really need it. I feel like I could make another planet just out of the military community alone if I didn't have this going on. And I think once that happens, then I think another pie is just bigger. Right now. We're all, like, fighting for the same one. Then the reality is, I think if people get good at archery faster and understand it more, the reality is there's not one pie on the table. There's a whole buffet. And it's like, hey, manufacturers, what is your passion? Do you like military and veterans? Do you like women and kids? Do you like people who only want to hunt to provide? These are all just different planets or different pies that we have the ability to grow archery and grow hunting? Both. But I think in that case, for the military, 100%, that is a rescue for PTSD. For so many. The amount of stories I hear every tack is the amount of stories I hear from people that had literally guns in their mouths and then heard a podcast with Rogan or saw one of my videos on YouTube while they were, like, in their last day doing scrubing through YouTube and then stumbled on archery and went into a shop, got set up, went home, watched the YouTube and learned how to shoot from us. These stories are just, like, life changing, dude. And the thing is, there's so many different pies, and as an industry, probably the hardest thing is going to be making sure at times we're all pointing our lights in the same direction to be together and not, uh that's the one thing that I really don't like right now. I do not like tradbo versus compound bow. I do not like private land versus public land. I do not like outfitter versus DIY hunts. These are all divisions, compound bow versus crossbow. Listen, we're all hunters. In the end, we're hunters. And if we freaking want to keep this thing because listen, my wife is European. I built my career traveling the world, doing archery, like, every single place ever. And we are really fortunate to have the rights we have here.

(01:39:41):
Absolutely.
I don't think people realize how limited that is. It's like we have it going on over here. And listen, you look at what's happening to mainstream cancel culture, you think hunting can't become the next thing. This is very fragile, and we all need to be together. That's the only way that the pie keeps growing is if we actually have something to bake.

(01:40:21):
Yeah, exactly. I think you hit it right on the head. As far as a total, um, for example, right now, Minnesota, it's passed legislation, but it's going into regulation. That the entire archery season. Anybody can shoot a crossbow. And it, uh, erupted. This volcano of that's not true. Archery. As a pro shop, we're very careful to say what line. You can have your beliefs, but you put your game face on. When you put your jersey on, you walk in the shop and, for example, we, uh, put out a video. And I said, my twelve year old son is a string bean who can't draw but 30 pounds, and I don't feel it's lethal. So do I take the last three years of his hunting career and his throat in the garbage because he can't shoot a bow? Or do I allow him to use a crossbow where it's legal and be successful, and a put meat on the table to where he gutted his first deer and learn that, yes, it's not a vertical bow, but it's still an aspect of honey and family and archery and a total aspect of it.

(01:41:32):
Yeah, there are certain subjects that are just tough ones. Dude, my shoulder don't feel like I'm going to be able to pull a bow much longer. I mean, if I'm honest with you, I'm either going to have to shoot something with my feet or shoot a crossbow with my lips or something. I don't know. But yeah, I definitely think you're right. There's applications for everybody. Um, I just talked about this same subject with, um, another company that I work with because, one, I use it, but I really think this is an important element to hunting is land trust. And so people are already getting confused with what they are. They're not, like, buying public land and leasing it out to people. They're not doing that. What they do is they're an airbnb of private property. That's what they are. So, listen, here's a perfect example of why this system is awesome, okay? Our neighbor two doors down, um, she just inherited the family trust of acreage or their family farm can't be sold. Her and her sister just like, got this and they can't sell it. And they're like, how do we pay $10,000 a year for taxes? We're not even going to do anything with it. It's just going to keep getting handed down through the family. So this is a perfect example of they actually offer their land for whatever the calendar dates are that they choose. They offer their land for this much per day to be able to just go there and do a DIY hunt. Well, dude, this is an awesome service because, one, they're not having to sell to a developer. Uh, and that land is now honestly not getting a lot of pressure. Especially if you, like, book it. Right? It's not getting a lot of pressure. These are people sometimes that don't even use the property. It's an investment piece they bought or whatever. So it's not like hunters are getting screwed out of land that they used to hunt for free. Yeah, in some cases. But hey, listen, I bought my own farm because I just got tired of every place I had permission either getting leased out from under me or someone else, um, coming on the property. Or he's like, hey, I just let everybody go, right? So I got tired of that. I got tired of booking a day's vacation off work and going out there. And then someone else is like 100 yards down from me, even if it's on a private farm. So the reality is if you want better hunting or if you want better hunting and you want less pressure, you're going to have to pay something for it. Whether it's sweat, working it off for a farmer, whether it's someone you know and nurturing that relationship to make sure they're still getting you permission to go, there's always a cost one way or another. So I think those types of divides too are just kind of stupid because, listen, I'm definitely going to fight for public land. I'm going to fight for it. But if I work harder, then I'm going to know, yeah, it's nice to not hunt land where I'm running into people, right? So I'm willing to work harder through the year to pay more, to be able to have a better hunt. So for me, it's always gone to the hunt. When I left the US team, it was because I refused to shoot in September. I refused to do the World final in September. And they just said, well, if you're saying you won't go to it, you can't be on the team. And I'm like, I will not compete in September. I'm going to try to win every single one until then. If I won all four and I have to go, well, guess what? I am not going to go. I'm just telling you, even if I've won four in a row, I'm not going to go in September. I'm taking this freaking New Mexico tag and I'm going to slay something.

(01:46:01):
Love it. Speaking of slay something, so we got just a little bit left here down in a dojo that's the editing team.
Sizzling bacon or something.
We're, uh, going to cut it short, then we're going to enjoy ourself and shoot a little bit and let you get back to it. But John, I surely appreciate you sitting down the invitation to come down here. There's some cool things coming out in, uh, the future for those of you that are listening. Like, again, you can visit all of this stuff on YouTube and podcast and you can become a better shooter and incorporate a pro shop to help you guide you in the certain situations for a bow purchase, arrows. Questions that you may not be able to get a hold of. The knock on nation team. That there's everything's out there. You can find everything but a, ah, pro shop, like archery country that you're listening to. We can be there to answer the small questions. And if you don't have time or you don't have a press or money to do it. We can be your source.

(01:47:02):
Well, honestly, that's the best option. If you have a good shop like yours, go there. Like, go there. Someone the other day asked me, they're like they said something like, how long did it take you to fletch these arrows? And I go, I didn't fletch them. And he goes, who fletches them? I'm like, Dude, we have guys at work that fletch all day. And I'm like, they are way better than me at it. So when you have access to a shop with guys like you that are doing ten bows a day, go there. Uh, the techniques of archery are diminishing skill. It's perishable. When guys are doing it every single day, their knife is way sharper. So, yeah, if you have the ability to go to a shop like Archery Country, go, you're fortunate. You're lucky.

(01:48:00):
Absolutely. I appreciate it. For all of you listening, make sure that you subscribe leave us a comment on this. We appreciate you listening. On behalf of everybody at Archery Country, we will see you on down the road.
Thank you for listening to Archery Country podcast.

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Ep. 58: John Dudley from Nock On Archery

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