March 28, 2024 • 72 mins
**Episode Description:**
In this enlightening episode of Authentic On Air, host Bruce Alexander welcomes Dr. Alondra Rogers, a dedicated social worker, autism consultant, author, and mother, for a profound conversation on neurodiversity, late diagnosis, and the journey of living and parenting within the autistic and ADHD spectrum. Dr. Rogers shares her personal and professional insights into the challenges and beauties of neurodivergence, highlighting the significance of self-awareness, acceptance, and the pursuit of authentic identity in a world that often misunderstands neurodiverse individuals.
**Key Takeaways:**
1. The Importance of Self-Identification: Dr. Rogers' story emphasizes the transformative power of understanding one's neurodivergence and advocating for oneself and one's family.
2. The Role of Professional Support: The discussion underscores the necessity of finding empathetic and knowledgeable support for navigating life as a neurodivergent individual or parent.
3. The Power of Community: Both guests advocate for the value of connecting with others who share similar experiences, reinforcing the importance of community in the journey toward self-acceptance.
**Resources:**
- Dr. Alondra Rogers' Books: "Thriving Together" and "Meeting Myself in the Dark"
- Autistic Self Advocacy Network (ASAN)
- Neuroclastic
- Embrace Autism
**Learn More About Coach Bruce:**
Coach Bruce Alexander specializes in helping individuals, especially parents, embrace their authentic selves and manage the complexities of ADHD and autism in their families. With a focus on personal growth and community support, Bruce offers guidance and resources for navigating neurodiversity with grace and confidence.
Consultation: www.authenticidentitymanagement.com/consultation
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:37 Late Diagnosis and Personal Experiences
06:53 Comparative Diagnosis and Self-Realization
09:18 Challenges in Getting a Diagnosis
13:34 The Complexity of Eye Contact and Masking
22:13 The Importance of Sharing Personal Experiences
26:07 Choosing a Career Path and Authenticity
29:01 The Challenge of Showing Up as Yourself
32:12 The Boundaries and Education of Therapy
37:09 Life Coaching and Holding Space
38:28 The Transformative Power of Therapy
39:28 Managing Emotional Investment in Therapy
42:14 Living a Neurodivergent Lifestyle
45:59 Trusting Your Inner Voice
46:24 The Reversion of Skills in Autism
50:17 Orienting to a New Reality
54:26 Empowerment through Training and ADHD
56:56 Understanding Autism Speaks
59:36 Finding Resources for ADHD and Autism
01:03:05 Curating Social Media Accounts
01:08:25 Respecting Children's Privacy on Social Media
01:10:15 Dr. Alondra Rogers' Work and Consultancy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:31):
Hello and welcome back to Authentic On Airwith Bruce Alexander.
I'm your host, Bruce Alexander, and I amhere today with Dr.
Alondra Rogers.
And I'm going to have Dr.
Rogers tell us exactly who it is or whoshe is and what it is she does.
Thank you so much for being here, Dr.
Rogers.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hi, thanks for having me, Bruce.
You can just call me Alondra.
(00:52):
I am a social worker and an autismconsultant.
I also write books.
I am an autistic and ADHD woman.
I'm late diagnosed and I'm also a mom of anon -speaking autistic girl.
(01:12):
So.
I have that sort of trifecta of positionswhere I'm an autism professional, an
autism and ADHD individual and a parent.
So you are fully steeped in the traditionof neurodiversity.
and I'm interested in all, you know, everyissue that comes up affects me in some
(01:34):
way.
So yeah, I'm interested in all of it.
So talking about late diagnosis, I knowthat's like, it's really a hot topic at
the moment, but everybody's diagnosisstory is different.
Tell us a little bit about yours.
Yeah, well, I feel like it's how far backdo you go, you know?
(01:55):
Like, I first realized that I wasdifferent from other kids pretty much as
soon as I went to school.
And, you know, fast forward throughchildhood and early adulthood, I really
knew nothing about autism.
I knew a little bit more about ADHD.
It just wasn't something that I thought Ineeded to pay attention to.
(02:16):
So I didn't.
And when I met my husband and got married,I always knew, you know, there's something
about him that's different too.
And, you I was interested in mentalhealth, even when I first met him, when I
was, you know, 20 years old, and I justcouldn't figure it out.
(02:39):
So what do you mean there was somethingdifferent about him?
Was he different from you or was hedifferent from everybody?
both.
Yeah, we're different from each other.
And what I recognize now is that I havebetter masking skills than he does.
And that may or may not be due to, youknow, gender norms, or just ability, but
(03:05):
my ability to mask is greater than his.
So, you know, in college and going after
college to look for jobs.
He had such a hard time with socialaspects of everything, not just
socializing, but like going to a jobinterview and knowing how to put on that
(03:26):
mask of a job interview that I you know,everybody does, but everybody does a
little bit different.
And he really did not do thatsuccessfully.
So trying to teach him what I realized Iwas trying to teach him how to mask.
So many, many years go by and when we haveour child, I noticed that there are
(03:55):
differences about her too.
And she had a developmental regression.
So that's less common for autistic kids.
Most kids have delays.
She was on time for all of her earlymilestones until she was about...
just about two, and then she lost skills.
(04:16):
So in trying to figure out what was goingon, I came very quickly to the conclusion
that it was autism, but I didn't reallyknow about autism.
My knowledge was really based onstereotypes, based on what was portrayed
in media.
And so my idea of autism was like littleboys who...
(04:42):
wanted to play by themselves.
Yeah, exactly.
I didn't really know anything.
And that was remarkable to me, because,you know, I had worked in mental health
administration.
And one of the teams that I supported wasthe kids team.
(05:05):
And like, I went to their meetings.
And one of their meetings was a meetingwith families.
And
most of the people there had autistickids.
And, you know, still wasn't really seepingin.
And I remember that.
I think about that a lot when I'm tryingto do advocacy, is that people are not
(05:27):
tuned in.
Just trying to think about where was I?
Yeah, but so my daughter was diagnosed attwo and a half by the time that we asked
for an assessment.
to the time that she was diagnosed, I knewinstantly that that's what was going on
with my husband.
And I called his mom and I started askinghis mom questions about, you what was he
(05:52):
like when he was little, little?
And suddenly, you know, she told me thingsthat she'd never told me before.
Oh, he didn't talk at all until he wasthree.
He didn't say a word.
And then all of a sudden he was speakingin complete sentences.
His very first words were, I want moreKool -Aid, please.
That was the very first thing he eversaid.
(06:12):
And I was like, oh, check box.
And, you know, oh, he would run away fromschool and go home in the middle of the
day.
So, you know, eloping and he ran away atDisneyland, you know, these kinds of
stories.
And some of those stories are similar tomine.
(06:33):
I was an eloper.
We lived in kind of a bad part of...
of town outside LA and I was the like,that was in the 80s.
So like, I don't know how things work nowin California, but the very nice gang
members would bring me home.
(06:55):
I would run to the park and they knew whoI was.
So he'd bring me home to my parents whodidn't even know I was gone.
But yeah, so through the process of mydaughter being assessed and diagnosed,
immediately I was like, okay, he fits thestereotype, but I didn't really know what
the stereotype was.
(07:15):
And it took me probably, I'd say sixmonths longer to be turning that view onto
myself.
And, you know, suddenly the things that Ithought I was and the things I had been
diagnosed with didn't make any senseanymore.
Like, wait a second.
(07:36):
Okay, yeah, I have anxiety.
I've been diagnosed with depression, but Idon't really have stereotypical
depression.
They just didn't know what they werelooking at.
And I think that that happens a lot.
So in your practice, do you see a lot ofthis comparative diagnosis?
(07:56):
You know, people looking at their spousesand their children and it being a mirror
that eventually brings it back to them.
Yeah, and, you know, people who are otherthan male tend to have a different
experience too.
So women, but also people who have genderdiversity, their path to diagnosis is or
(08:21):
self diagnosis, either one is often longerand has more detours on it.
But definitely,
People who are in my position, latediagnosed women tend to have come to that
in a similar way, not exclusively, but alot of parents have their kids diagnosed
(08:46):
and are like, oh, wait a second, that isme too.
And some are having the assessors turn tothem and say, you might wanna get assessed
yourself.
Especially when you start saying thingslike, well, yeah, she does this or he does
that, but I did that too.
You know, it doesn't seem that strange.
(09:09):
And so we, the last time we spoke, we kindof talked about how, whenever you actually
went to diagnose, you had a majorfrustration in getting it done.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
yeah, of course.
So at the time, this will try to make itmeaningful.
At the time, my husband was active dutymilitary.
(09:32):
So our medical team was some of them werealso active duty, some of them were
civilians, but there's just a differentculture in the military community that
I think I would have had a differentexperience if I had gone to a civilian
doctor first, but I didn't have thatopportunity.
(09:54):
My doctor was uniformed.
I think he was a major.
I don't know.
Something like that.
Major?
Yeah.
I don't...
I'm gonna pretend like I know.
And so I told him, it's like, mydaughter's been diagnosed and I now
realize...
(10:15):
that I have all of these unexplainedsymptoms and experiences that make me
think I need to be assessed for autism.
And he looked at his nurse and was like,okay.
And they brought in the clinic's embeddedsocial worker.
I told her the same thing.
And then she went out in the hall andconferred with the doctor.
(10:38):
And they, instead of sending me to apsychologist to get an assessment like I
asked for,
they wanted me to see a therapist first.
So they sent me to a social worker.
And I was like, well, that's great.
You know, I was in social work school atthe time.
So I was doing therapy for soldiers.
(11:00):
And I thought, you know, it's just part ofthe work to also be going to therapy
yourself.
So I was like, this will be great.
I'll go in, I'll tell her I need myassessment, and then we can talk about
other things.
She'll give me my referral.
And the first thing that she said to mewhen I got to that part of my story is,
(11:21):
hey, I think I might be autistic and I'dlike to get assessed, is she said, you
can't be autistic because you're makingeye contact with me.
And, you know, first, that's a hugestereotype.
A lot of autistic people have the abilityto make eye contact.
But the thing about me is that I actuallyhave pretty limited eye contact.
(11:45):
I make eye contact with people that I'mclose to or strangely when I'm very angry,
I'll make eye contact.
But usually, I don't look at people'seyes.
I usually look at their mouths.
And there's, I think two reasons for that.
One, I avoid the discomfort of looking attheir eyes, but I also have auditory
(12:06):
processing issues.
So looking at their mouths helps me hearwhat they're saying.
And so I told her, you know, I understandthat it might look like I'm making eye
contact, but I'm actually looking at yourmouth.
And she argued with me about it.
She's like, no, no, you're looking at myeyes.
I'm looking at your face.
(12:26):
I guess that's close enough.
I did not get a referral from thosepeople.
I had to come back to it when I got a newdoctor.
So to pause on the story right there, thisability to make eye contact from what I've
learned myself is we are predisposed asautistic and ADHD people to certain
(12:50):
things.
We are not necessarily completelyobfuscated from anything.
We might have challenge.
I had a challenge to make eye contactthrough, sometimes it's masking, sometimes
it's through.
like gaining new skills is like I wantedto be able to like control the eye contact
(13:11):
game.
So I learned to get better at it.
I learned to like, you know, part of itwas like not staring at their eyes all the
time, but also like, like you said,looking at their mouth, looking at the
general part of their face, not lookingover here to have a conversation because
like I wanted to be taken seriously inconversation.
So I learned to level up that skill.
Do you think that that is that is oftenlike.
(13:34):
misconstrued as masking because you'relearning to improve how you communicate.
You know, I think it depends.
And like, in autism, kind of the name ofthe game is heterogeneity.
That is just a fancy word for meaningdiversity.
So everybody's brains, there's actuallystudies on brain wiring and
(14:00):
you.
I love this part.
I was gonna bring this back up.
So yeah, I could do this whole thing
this before.
So our brains, let me start over.
Neurotypical people's brains are generallyall very similar.
They function the same and on functionalMRIs where they watch how your brain is
(14:24):
communicating, neurotypical people'sbrains all look the same.
Autistic people's brains all lookdifferent.
from neurotypicals and from each other.
So there's general similarities, butautistic people are not all the same.
We all are different.
(14:47):
And so in every single trait or symptom orhowever you categorize it, you're gonna
find a lot of diversity.
So for some people, so my daughter is,she's 12, she's a non -speaking.
She does have a communication method, soI'm able to talk to her and get responses.
(15:08):
So for her, she says that eye contactcauses her physical pain, and that's not
an uncommon statement.
So for her, could she work on that?
If she wanted to, she could.
I would never push her to do that, and Inever have.
(15:29):
And...
I really think that there are truly, youknow, autistic people who cannot work on
that and get better at it without causingthemselves harm.
So I think it's very important that peoplelike teachers and parents know that, that
pushing people to learn skills canbackfire.
(15:52):
If they're not, if that's not a skill theywant to learn, if that's not something
that they can do,
Just expecting that they're going to beable to do it can actually backfire and
cause harm, cause trauma, you know?
And that's another bit of research onautistic people in particular, as well as
(16:13):
ADHD people.
ADHD people is that we're all more proneto experience events as traumatic and
experience more trauma, even despite that.
So...
what would typical people would experienceas trauma, we are exposed to more of those
kinds of experiences.
(16:34):
And I want to say something judgmental,but it's neurotypical people who are
responsible for that.
It's not our fault.
Well, and then, you know, to furtherworsen that situation, neurotypical people
don't have to deal with the dialogue ofthe thing that they just did in their head
constantly running.
So the traumatic thing happens no matterwho was caused by.
(16:58):
Then it's re -traumatized by us relivingit in our heads at least once and
sometimes many, many times over as wecontinue to beat ourselves up and, you
know, and say, I should have done thisinstead of that and guilt ourselves and
shame ourselves.
And so it's like this
this never it's not never ending.
It can be ending.
You can.
This is another thing that with the rightwork and then it all goes back into like
(17:20):
the pain game is like is the pain you'rein worth gaining the skill or is like
would gaining the skill cause more painthan just surviving the way it is because
it all it all goes back to that.
has to be the choice for the individual.
They have to decide because that's thedifference between trauma and growth is
(17:41):
making the decision to do something hardbecause you know you can do it.
But also, you know, autism is a disabilityand it's okay if you can't do some things.
It's okay.
So my daughter makes eye contact veryrarely.
When she does, it's always about asuperior type of connection.
(18:05):
But most of the time she doesn't and it'sokay.
For me, eye contact feels intimate.
So if I am having eye contact with someonethat I don't have a strong relationship
with, I feel really uncomfortable.
(18:27):
So
I can, you know, what I learned to do as achild is to look at someone's face without
looking at their eyes to accommodate, youknow, my grandma telling me you look at me
when I talk to you and my own level ofcomfort.
So that's a compromise that I have madeand that has worked for me.
(18:52):
I would say my husband is in the middle.
He makes eye contact sometimes.
He can if I, you know, ask him to, but atthe same time, you know, I don't need to
ask him to, you know?
(19:13):
Something that is really important forpeople to know is that for an autistic
person, we don't filter information.
the way neurotypical people filterinformation.
So when I look at someone while I amtrying to think or do anything else, I am
(19:38):
now getting so much more information fromyou that it's distracting.
So I like, I notice one of the things thatif I'm trying to mask that I try to...
differently is when I am speaking, Ihardly ever look at the person because I'm
(19:58):
trying to think and I can't think and lookat you at the same time.
So if you know, I'm sure if you watch thislater, you'll watch like every time I
talk, I'm like looking over here becauseI'm trying to think about what I'm saying
versus you know, how are you reacting?
How are you taking it?
(20:18):
Are you understanding me?
Like I can't deal with all of that stuff.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's like all that feedback is alot.
And as a coach for ADHD parents and youknow, I don't coach anybody who's
currently identifies as autistic, butthere's, there's some of that in there.
It's the, the urging for them tounderstand why they're doing what they're
doing.
(20:38):
It's like, if you're masking, are youdoing it for a reason that is worthy of
shrinking yourself?
Because they're, I mean, uh, on my lastepisode, I talked to, uh, a person who
talked about,
her autism, I'm sorry, their autism andhow it is important to go out safely as I
go out softly, come home safe.
(20:59):
It is this idea that there are, there arecertain amounts of things that are worthy
to shrink just a little bit because youget to come home alive.
Like, you know, showing up all the time asyourself does not always equate to safety
for everyone.
I am, I am a large man who is imposing.
(21:20):
I can get away with being fully myselfmost of the time and not feeling
intimidated.
That's not the same for everybody else.
So I choose not to mask to very like,we're hardly any degree.
There are skills that I've decided I wantto have.
It's like, it's not like me trying to makemore eye contact when it feels comfortable
is not me trying to act like a neuro-typical.
(21:42):
It is something that I decided, like, Ifeel like that makes me feel more seen and
valued in a conversation.
So I want to offer that as an option forother people.
If it doesn't feel right in aconversation, I don't try to press that
because it's something that I want to bean exchange.
Like I all want it to be a better exchangebetween other people.
So it's not about me trying to shrink whoI am.
(22:05):
It's me trying to be the best version ofmyself directed towards exchanging with
other people in those spaces.
And I think that, you know, that'sperfectly okay.
My sort of social work perspective onanything is that people get to do what
they want to do so long as it's nothurting anybody else.
(22:27):
And I always want to hold space for peoplewho cannot do that.
You know, that's okay, too.
And I think it's worth mentioning herethat
masking can be, and it's not, you know,just eye contact, it's, you know, masking
(22:51):
in the broad sense, can, can be automatic,can be something that you're not even
aware that you're doing for safety.
And that varies from what your identityis.
But I think it's a common experience for alot of different people.
(23:14):
So I think as a woman, I might mask incertain situations that I might feel
threatened without even thinking about it.
And I think I would be remiss if I didn'tmention that there was recently a shooting
by police of a black autistic 15 year oldboy.
(23:38):
And that should remind all of us that...
there are risks to not masking.
Unfortunately.
and part of that is you know once againbeing aware of being aware of your
capacity and what like what's your whatthe deficiency is between where you exist
(24:01):
and where you Are like what's your placeis in neurotypical society like there is
once I understood that a lot of the thingsthat I was showing up as in neurotypical
society was because I was told sit stillDon't talk when other people are talking
I was told to shrink who I was and I justdid that because that's what you know,
(24:22):
like authority figures were telling methat's who I was supposed to be as I grew
older and that like those urges were stillthere and I was still hearing those same
things.
I was able to do work on myself andrealize that that they're not allowed to
tell me that like that is it's my choiceto decide how much of myself I want to
give to people and if they don't like it,they can they can remove themselves from
(24:43):
my space and.
Then I was able to like understanding thatfirst was a huge component because if I
didn't know where where all of this stuffwas coming from, I didn't know how to make
adjustments to then understand like whatis me, what is actually me?
And then once you understand who you are,then you can start to say, okay, this is
(25:05):
the piece that is that I would like tobring back into myself to then go out into
that society because it's important to doA, B and C.
Like I need to go get a job.
I need to.
make money, I need to be able to, youknow, have a relationship with friends or
whatever.
Once I realized all of that, then it waslike, okay, I don't really I'm going to
(25:25):
work for myself because I don't want totry to show up at a nine to five job and
be unhappy all the time to make dollarsthat didn't really buy happiness.
I remember being 18 years old, graduatedfrom high school, and I was going to
community college and I had to work a full-time job.
(25:46):
And I remember coming home after like weektwo crying, like, I cannot do this my
whole life.
This is misery.
I was like, I definitely am going to go tocollege and do what I want to do.
And I sort of do that.
Well, because my daughter has really highneeds, I have to be really flexible.
(26:16):
So I definitely have that.
So it's mostly worked out.
I thought I would do therapy, but notherapy for me.
Not anymore, yeah.
I actually really do like consultingbecause I do have flexibility and I have a
(26:39):
lot of prominent ADHD features.
Like I like change and I like doingdifferent things.
So I like having different projects comeup and people with different issues than
the last person that I helped.
I enjoy them.
moving through all these different spacesand dealing with ADHD and autistic people
(27:02):
on so many different levels, what do youfeel like the biggest challenge to showing
up as yourself is that you seecomprehensively?
Mm.
I am a natural oversharer.
So when when I was in therapy school, Iwas very observant of boundaries and
(27:27):
rigidity about sharing anything.
And now there is in therapy, you can likedisclose something.
or talk about some experience for yourselfand they call it the use of self.
And I was really nervous about ever doingthat because I didn't feel like I knew I
(27:52):
couldn't predict what the consequenceswould be two or three steps down the road.
So I didn't want to do that.
But I felt inauthentic in that way that Icouldn't do that.
And
So as a consultant, I still struggle withthat, but I believe that part of
(28:20):
connecting as an autistic person is doingthat, is saying, I see you because I know
what that's like.
Here's what it was like for me.
That matters so much.
I think to me as an autistic person, itmatters.
And...
to neurotypical people were always told,don't make it about you.
(28:44):
But that's how autistic people connect isI know that you know, because you just
told me that you had something just likethat happen to you.
So it's really helpful.
Yeah, as a coach, that's that's everythingabout earning the trust of the client is
like, you have to know that I see you.
(29:05):
And if I'm dealing with, you know,exclusively ADHD and autistic people, they
need to know that I've that I've beenthrough it or I've been connected to it to
a degree in which I can explain it back tothem basically, as if I've lived it.
And once they once they've heard enough ofthose stories are able to to stop thinking
I'm judging them while they're sharingtheir truth.
And that is like up to that point.
(29:27):
It's just, you know, us like, you know,kind of tiptoeing on eggshells because
they're like, I can't really open up totell you what I need to tell you until I
see that you really get me.
And I still think it's really important tohave boundaries.
Like I'm not going to share some intimatedetail like, oh, my, I got an argument
with my husband yesterday and I'm going totell you about it.
(29:48):
You know, like that's too personal, but tobe able to tell someone, you know, yeah, I
have a child with high needs and I knowwhat it's like to struggle, to do self
-care.
Like, you know, that's something that Iwant to be able to share in a way that is
meaningful.
(30:09):
So I still struggle with, okay, where'sthe line?
But I always err on the side of caution.
And so as you know, luckily for me being alife coach, that boundary is totally
different.
It's like I like very much my life is anopen book.
It's like this is something I'm strugglingwith because they come to me because I'm
(30:30):
able to struggle with these things openlyand able to have the conversations that
get me out of those situations.
And if they, if they define this personwho never struggles, then I never have the
testimony to offer them with thosestruggles.
And that's, you know, and that's verydifferent.
You've got degrees to offer.
You have got like, you know, years andyears of training.
(30:50):
I've got years and years of experience ofjust living and fucking up.
Like that is like, I'm bringing you all ofmy, you know, all of my testimonies of
just messing things up and they're allyours to read through and share.
And the, I think the, the life coaches whoaren't who I'm not going to say are, they
might be successful, but who aren't doinggood work are the ones who are trying to
(31:12):
do therapy with a life coach experience.
Like you can't do it.
You're not a therapist.
You're not a doctor.
If you are, and if you're trying to do theopposite as a therapist, be careful.
Because that boundary gets very confusingif you're sharing all of your personal
shit and experiences and trying to stickto the formulaic logic that exists in the
(31:36):
therapy world.
It's gonna get really, really dicey.
Yeah, it doesn't work that way.
Therapy does not allow that because thesupreme rule of therapy is that you are
there for that person and the boundary isvery thick.
(31:57):
The boundary between you and me, if you'remy client, is really, really thick because
you don't want to cross any lines.
There's also a power.
differential when you go to aprofessional, whether you realize it or
not, there's a power difference.
(32:17):
So as a therapist, you have to be really,really careful with that power.
So you don't want to...
as you hire a therapist, you are deferringlike you're deferring the like the
entrance into your mind.
Like there's no earning it.
Like soon as you book the appointment, youhave already deferred to let this person
(32:37):
into your mind and start poking around.
So if they then were to shrink thatboundary and to like, I mean, that's how
inappropriate relationships happen in thatworld is because.
really true issue.
Even I mean, you know, everyone thinksabout like, you know, romantic
relationships or sexual relationships asbeing the big problem.
That's a problem, too.
(32:58):
But there are like, the line of friendshipor like, dual relationships is what they
call them.
But yeah, like, oh, if maybe if you stopbeing my client, we can be friends like,
that's
You can't ever do that.
(33:18):
You can't ever undo the relationship thatyou had first.
So.
That sounds so like...
Does that hurt?
Oh, um...
I would think that it's more concerningfor the client because something when I
(33:42):
did therapy, so just to like be clear, Ihave a non -clinical license right now.
I don't do therapy.
But when I was doing like my internship orwhatever,
you have learned all the rules of therapyand it's very clear to you what those are.
(34:05):
So it did not bother me at all because Ifelt like having those boundaries is like
a duty to your client.
That's the right thing to do thatpreserves their safety and trust.
So it never bothered me.
(34:25):
But one of the ways I think thattherapists and the institution of therapy
fails clients is that we never educateclients on what therapy is, what it looks
like, what is this relationship.
Because, you know, if you've never gone totherapy before, how are you supposed to
(34:47):
know what it's like?
Like, it's just...
A lot of people think that they don't needtherapy because they can just talk to
their friends because that's what it feelslike when they go to therapy sometimes is
you're just sitting there talking aboutyour problems.
But there is actually something else goingon.
But if you never explain that to people,then they don't know.
(35:10):
Well, what's the explanation?
What should the therapy world be tellingpeople?
Well, I think they should be tellingpeople what is this relationship?
So as your therapist, I'm not a friend.
I'm not someone who's going to fix yourlife for you.
What we're gonna do, and it depends,depends on what your goals are.
(35:32):
Some kind of therapy is like, we're gonnaspend years talking about your childhood
and how it affected you and how you canrepair.
Or you might want to do 10 weeks oftherapy to get over your divorce or
something.
(35:52):
You know, it totally depends.
But I just think that it should be talkedabout.
And there's just lots of things thataren't talked about.
I think every time someone starts therapy,the therapist should remind them, I'm a
mandatory reporter.
So if you tell me about anybody,
(36:13):
who is a vulnerable person, a child, yourgrandma, you know, your disabled cousin,
if there's any kind of abuse, and itdoesn't just mean, you know, hitting
someone.
It could be my brother's taking money frommy grandma.
That's a reportable issue, and peopleshould know in advance.
(36:37):
Yeah, it's I never had any desire.
So there's this these worlds that I alwaysthought I would have to go in to do the
work that I was called to do.
I would either have to go into the worldof the church and be a pastor or I would
have to go into therapy or counseling.
I got like, that's where I would have tobe.
So I always push this calling away becauseI didn't want to like have that thick
(36:59):
boundary between people or I didn't wantto have that superstrict dogma to live by.
None of that sounded any kind of good tome.
the when you do life coaching, right?
When you are like completely willing tocreate a space that is where first off, I
have to have my my plate clean.
I have to be willing to be totallyvulnerable and honest.
So whenever you come into my space, I'mable to hold space for you.
(37:23):
Korea and like if my soul is clean and Ican hold up a mirror so you can just see
what you are dealing with and I can justhold space for that and ask the right
questions to deal with what is on yourmind.
and what is blocking you from wherever itis we've decided that you want to get to,
that is literally all I have to do.
And then just keep, hold you responsiblefor the goal that you stated as we move
(37:49):
forward.
It's like you stated this is what youwanted.
Are you sticking to it?
And it is really so powerful how somethingthat simple can get so much done.
It's like just, but it's like, as soon asI'm not being honest, as soon as you're
not being honest, it doesn't work.
Like if you're hiding behind your lies toyourself, if you're not being honest to
(38:10):
the questions you're asking me, there isno transformation.
If I'm coming into it and I've got my ownbaggage I'm carrying into it and I'm
triggered by what you're saying, I am notgonna be able to hold space in the proper
way and it doesn't work.
Like it's so interesting to see all thishappen.
Yeah, and I don't want to therapy istransformational to especially if you have
(38:35):
a therapist that you do connect with.
It's really wonderful and powerful.
I had an experience where I had weeklytherapy for two years and it really did
change my life.
That was before I went to therapy school.
(38:56):
But you know what, it's not for everyone.
There's a high rate of burnout because youhave so much emotional investment.
And I know for me that as a, you know,working 40 hours a week during therapy, I
don't think I could do that.
And part of that is because of my, some ofmy autistic traits like hyper empathy.
(39:20):
I can't not feel what the person isfeeling.
Um...
makes me wanna ask the question again, howwere you okay with that thick boundary
between you and them when you're feelinghyper empathetic for them going through a
struggle?
How did you survive that?
It's it's hard.
(39:42):
The way that I managed it was to reallyuse the tools that I was given in school
to and in my training.
School gives you a lot but also you know,like when I did my internship, I had a
(40:03):
senior social worker that I worked withwho was he was awesome.
He was like,
40 year veteran, had a lot of experiencedoing therapy.
Being able to tune myself, I don't evenknow how to explain this, tune myself
(40:24):
wholly to the other person.
So I would hear my own sort of.
thoughts about what was going on, but itwas in a sense like I'm outside of me and
totally focused on the other person.
That level of emotional effort is notsomething that I could sustain 40 hours a
(40:48):
week.
But I still found myself reallyemotionally invested in my clients.
And my very first...
experience with therapy, I worked withsoldiers who were transitioning out of the
(41:11):
military.
There was a special unit for soldiers thathad been injured or were ill and were
transitioning out of the military, so Idid kind of short -term therapy with them.
And I still remember the very firstpatient I ever saw.
And I so hope that he's doing well becausehe had been through unbelievable things.
(41:39):
And yeah, I was really emotionallyinvested and that is, there's a very fine
line of how much investment you shouldhave.
And I don't know if I would have, youknow, ever got that right.
Because yeah.
(42:01):
I don't know how to completely turn thatoff, but I think I did well while I was
doing it.
But I'm also, I'm very glad to have adifferent model to work on now.
And that's the consulting, right?
(42:22):
So this something that I've I've beenuncovering as I've been doing my work with
my clients is we are like as ADHD andautistic people, we are taught for so long
that everything that like our impulses arewrong are like our inner voice is is
stupid and it's lying and we should notlisten to it.
You know, if like our urge to move iswrong, like everything that we're doing is
(42:46):
just wrong.
My goal has become to help people re likestart to retrust that in that impulsivity,
retrust that inner voice that tells you itwithin a framework, like not to just, you
know, uncaged to beast and let it runwild, but you know, to live by a code like
(43:06):
a standard of living and then to trustyour inner voice.
What did like, what does that make youlike?
What do you think of that?
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, I actually have a little phrase forthat and I call it living a neurodivergent
lifestyle.
So there's a lot of aspects of that, butone aspect of that is listening to your
(43:27):
own needs and being able to understandthem.
So that's really tricky when you'retalking about impulsivity because some
impulses can be dangerous.
You know, people have like...
impulses to do drugs or have risky sexualbehaviors like these can be damaging to
(43:52):
you.
So on the one hand you have to determinewhat's the need behind the impulse.
So if your need behind the impulse issomething you can recognize like I'm low
on dopamine.
then you can make a good choice aboutdoing something a little bit different.
(44:15):
And movement is always a great way toaddress some of those impulses.
Yeah, and what I've found is that a lot ofit is so where we miss, we miss construe
what that inner voice is telling usbecause we've got so much junk in our
(44:35):
head.
Like, and part of my program is liketeaching people how to get the junk out of
your head.
And then like first thing in the morning,you have to do like a meditation and then
a like we use what's called the stack.
It was what's this program where you areable to.
Basically have a conversation withyourself and work through whatever
feelings you are having to start the day.
Then you do some movement.
(44:56):
Then you like you put some love into thepeople that are important to you.
And that allows you to like kind ofweaponize your mind to be able to actually
hear what you're trying to tell yourselfversus having all these distracting
thoughts saying like I need to take careof my body.
You know, like there's you know, all thesethings running through my mind because I
haven't made any peace there.
I'm ignoring my wife.
But as soon as you do all those things tostart your day, all of a sudden,
(45:19):
you're free to actually think about whatis going to drive you forward today.
And it's been pretty powerful.
Yeah, I think that's good advice.
If you take the time to just have somemindfulness, instead of reacting to
(45:43):
everything is taking the time to actuallyconsider where you are and what you want
to do.
Yeah.
So, as we're just gonna start to wrap uphere, but before we get too far close to
the end, you mentioned as like you weregoing through the process of diagnosing
(46:09):
your daughter that she reverted on some ofher skills.
And I didn't wanna go without talkingabout that part.
Like, how did you find that?
How did you find the reversion of yourdaughter in this process?
Yeah, so she had this noticeable change.
(46:29):
And it's less common, but it's notuncommon for autistic kids to have this
similar experience.
Hers was quite dramatic, and that's a bitunusual.
So she developed pretty normally.
Looking back, she had a lot of sensoryissues.
(46:50):
And by the time she was about nine monthsold, I expected that she would get a
diagnosis of sensory processing disorder.
But, you know, she was speaking, shewalked early, like she was walking at nine
months old.
Because I think she had a tremendous driveto move.
She used to cry if she wasn't moving, likeyou had to...
(47:13):
My husband would say she's like a shark.
She can't stop moving.
And before she could do that on her own,we would have to be moving.
So carrying her around, I would wear herin a little whatever, you know, little
carriers.
I couldn't think of it.
And take her everywhere, all around thehouse.
(47:37):
But about...
I'd say about 18 months, I noticedsomething change.
She just stopped talking as much.
And very gradually over months, shestarted losing speech.
She stopped responding to her name.
(47:58):
When I would call her, you know, she usedto look, she stopped doing that.
She started having kind of differentbehaviors than she did before where she
would like,
She had a glow stick, like my husband hadthese like military glow sticks in his kit
and he gave her one one day and she heldonto that glow stick 100 % of the time she
(48:24):
was awake and she'd fall asleep and whenshe woke up she would look for her glow
stick and she didn't play with any othertoys.
You know, it was unusual and...
It was very interesting because herpediatrician, when I came to her and said,
I'm having concerns that she's losingskills and I would like her to have an
(48:46):
autism assessment, the pediatrician said,well, she said hello to me and she waved
and she's looking at me.
So I don't think that that's a problem.
But if you want a referral, you can justcall these people yourself.
So she gave me this little pamphlet.
I called them.
(49:07):
and they made an appointment and like twoweeks later they saw her and they told me
they were absolutely certain that she wasautistic and they fast -tracked.
They called in favors to get her diagnosedquickly.
So at the time we were living in Kansasand the wait list was nine months to get
(49:31):
seen at the one of the two places in thestate that did autism assessments.
And this local county zero to threeprogram was able to get one of the
universities to come out and do six autismassessments for the military because we
lived in a rural community in one day.
(49:52):
So we did get her diagnosed really quicklywithin two months.
So that's a pretty like, I mean, thatcollapses the time for the assessment,
which is nice, but for you, that meansthat that like speeds up your time to
grieve the life that you knew.
How did that affect you?
(50:14):
It was very...
I don't know if I don't think of it asgrief.
I just think of it as like orienting.
I had to reorient myself to what the worldactually was for us.
(50:38):
You know, yeah, I had expectations.
You know, I thought she would...
go to ballet class and read aloud to meand do all these things that were
different.
And in my mind at that time, I thought thefaster we get our diagnosed, the faster
(51:02):
we'll get intervention and things willjust be normal.
Eventually she'll just be pretty much likeI was, like weird, but okay.
Things are different than that too.
You know, I've had to reassess what ismany times and I've never thought of it as
(51:29):
grieving because I'm lucky to have her andI love the way she is.
It is different than pretty much anybodyelse I know.
I mean, the reason why I use the wordgrieving is because we build these lives,
like, you know, these whole lives ofimagination, you know, my kids as well,
(51:52):
with like, based on certain things that wethink that we know.
And then life happens.
And it turns out that that life is notgoing to happen.
That life is, it's dead.
And so for me, like a process of grief,like grief is not a bad thing.
Grief is a necessary action to be able tomove on properly.
to the new life.
(52:14):
And so for me, like I say, grieve thatbecause you seem like you are very like
all in into the life that you are leadingand you're not like, you know, regretful
of any of it.
So like, it seems like you did grievethat, but that's just me on the outside,
not having that much information.
I mean, I processed the change.
I did.
(52:35):
But that's an ongoing process too, becauseI have had expectations change all along
the way.
Yeah, pretty much frequently.
And I am
comfortable with that if I know, this isso funny, I'm comfortable with the changes
(53:03):
if I know what to expect next.
That makes me feel safe as long as I havesome kind of control, which of course is
just silly because I have no control.
But the way that I...
hope with that is like, okay, what's thenext thing I need to do?
(53:27):
How I help her and
I've been really lucky to be able to do alot to help her, especially with
communication, because she has absolutelyno language.
She occasionally says yes.
But that's it.
(53:47):
So having communication means everything.
So yeah, once...
Once we get over kind of that initiallike, okay, things are not going to be the
way that I thought they were, then youmake a new picture in your mind of what
it's going to be.
And then you adapt when it's not like thateither.
(54:11):
Do you feel like you're the combination ofyour training in the fields that you've
been trained in and your ADHD allows foryou to adapt that picture faster?
I absolutely do.
Yes.
it's like you said, as long as I'm okaywith the change ADHD, as long as I know
what's gonna happen next and because ofyour, but you also have the training to
(54:34):
understand what is likely to happen next.
And that is, so that's actually theperfect mix of things happening.
empowered by my training to managewhatever happens.
That has come in handy in lots ofdifferent experiences in my life.
(54:57):
I definitely feel like I have a handle onit.
I also feel like this is terrible, but Ialso feel like when I go to...
providers, my daughter's providers, andthey know that I have doctorate that they
treat me differently.
Oh, that's not terrible.
(55:17):
I mean, yes, it's terrible for them.
It's great for you, though.
Obviously.
Yes.
fair that they don't treat every parentlike that.
I mean, but then you have to be balanced.
The fact that you're a woman and then, youknow, they take you less seriously because
you're a woman.
So maybe you get treated like a regularperson just because you have a doctor.
one of the things that I actually make aneffort to do is to make sure that all of
(55:40):
her providers are women.
And that's part of the reason is thatthere's an equality there that I don't
have to deal with when it's a maleprovider.
Because that is, you know, one more thingto have to deal with.
(56:01):
And I do...
I absolutely love her providers.
Like I said, we were in the military, sowe had a lot of different ones for her
first eight years.
And the last four years when my husbandhas been out, it has been so nice.
I just get no pushback.
(56:25):
Well, speaking of like providers resourceson last week's episode, Autism Speaks came
up and I was okay.
That face was something that was new tome.
Like I did not, I did not know like I forone being on the spectrum of something
that is also new to me.
So I had no, no correlation to AutismSpeaks, but I was told and I, you are
(56:50):
somebody who's knowledgeable in this.
I want to just, you know, to counter checkit.
that there's no there's no autistic peopleon the board whatsoever.
And that is very much it is about curingautism versus giving resources to help
autistic people exist as they are.
me give you a little bit of nuance.
So first, Autism Speaks is the biggestautism charity in the world.
(57:16):
They are incredibly unpopular withautistic people.
They're pretty popular with parents ofautistic kids.
The reason that they are unpopular withautistic people is...
most of their history.
So they were created by some grandparentsof a child who was autistic in the 90s and
(57:42):
their goal was to cure autism.
So that was their mission for most oftheir existence and a lot of their PR
really painted autism as a tragedy andautistic people as a burden without, I
mean not directly meaning to do that, butthat was the result.
(58:02):
And at one point they did have a couple ofautistic people on their board and those
people resigned.
And I think that they do have a couple ofautistic people that I don't think they're
on their board of directors, but there area couple of autistic people that do work
with them now.
But their history has done a lot of harmand they've really tried to adapt to the
(58:31):
interpretation that
most people have had of them, mostautistic people, they have tried to make
some changes, but their budget is stillreflective of their values and they don't
really provide any help for autisticadults or children.
They mainly are devoting money to researchand cause causation.
(58:55):
They're still invested in curing whetheror not they say they are.
So I would say, you know what, they createa lot of resources and some of them are
okay.
Some of them I don't particularly like.
I never recommend them because they're amixed bag.
(59:21):
I hope.
you recommend?
If you were looking for resources for ADHDand autism, what are the resources that
you suggest to your clients, to whomever?
Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on, youknow, what are they looking for?
What do they need?
I mean, there are some really bigorganizations that have all kinds of
(59:44):
resources, like especially for ADHD, likeChad is a huge organization that has all
kinds of resources, has been aroundforever.
So they have tons of articles oneverything.
For autistic people,
I would say, you know, what is it thatthey're looking for?
There are organizations that are devotedto different kind of aspects of autism or
(01:00:11):
like there's the Autism Self AdvocacyNetwork, which is focused on autistic
adults.
There's the Autistic Women, I think, Non-Binary Network.
I'm not sure if their name is reflectiveof...
you know, gender inclusion.
There's the yellow ladybugs, which is forautistic girls, or they probably also are
(01:00:39):
gender inclusive.
You know, it depends on on what you'relooking for.
It's kind of hard to say.
This show is primarily for parents, likeadult parents who have ADHD or autism,
which means that if they have children,there's a likelihood that they are
(01:00:59):
probably parenting it as well.
But I'm trying to focus more on being aresource for and helping provide resources
for the parents themselves for ADHD andautism.
Yeah.
Well, I would say that anotherorganization that I want to mention is
neuroclastic.
(01:01:20):
Neuroclastic has tons of articles onvarious subjects.
And is it called embrace autism?
They also have lots of scientificallyfocused information that is endlessly
useful, but broadly,
(01:01:42):
if you're looking for resources, youshould consider the sources.
So I definitely think that following onsocial media, you know, other parents or
organizations that reflect your values andyour needs.
So yeah, if you're an autistic parent andyou want to find other autistic parents,
(01:02:06):
yeah, look, look for them, take a look atwhat they're sharing.
and don't be afraid to unfollow accountsthat aren't reflecting your values.
In the autism community, there's so manycreators.
(01:02:27):
Some of them just share kind of humorouscontent.
Some of them use their children ascontent.
And I'm not a big fan of that, actually.
Um, and then, you know, there's peoplelike me who are professionals and autistic
(01:02:47):
and parent.
Um, so I think casting a wide net and justfollowing a bunch of accounts and
unfollowing ones when you think, gosh,that's not really for me.
That's okay too.
And I think that's really important thatyou mention that because a lot of people
feel like once they start followingsomebody and feel some sort of loyalty to
(01:03:09):
like, you know, to the accounts, like,well, I didn't like that one, but I'm,
they provided me so much or whatever.
It's like you, it's okay to just no longeralign with what somebody is posting
because social media is a world of likeconstant evolution and people are trying
to like attract new people all the time.
So they might pivot any point and stopmaking the content that you brought you
(01:03:30):
there.
It's okay to back away for your own, likeyour own mental health.
It's important.
It's actually important to do it, to saylike, this is not something I want to see
on a daily basis.
I don't want to be guilted or ashamed or,you know, fear might feed.
Yeah, for me, I, not too long ago, I juststarted unfollowing accounts that featured
(01:03:52):
their young children without anyprotection of their privacy.
Because I'm uncomfortable with that.
And there's an account that I really like.
His name is Shaden.
I can't remember what the name of like theaccount is, but he is.
(01:04:13):
Um, you know, he's an older child.
He's like 12 or 13, and this is somethinghe does with his mom.
He presents himself and he talks abouttopics that are important to him.
That's the kind of content that I thinkis, is awesome.
He is a self advocate and he is sharinghis experience.
(01:04:34):
He's not being, you know, he's not aproduct that is being created by the
parent and saying, you know, whatever.
whatever the parent wants to say.
And there are a lot of great parentcontent creators that also are protective
of their children's identities.
You know, they don't show their names,they, you know, hide their faces or, you
(01:04:57):
know, cover it up or something.
I really do respect that.
I respect the desire as a parent to sharewith other parents, like what you have
learned.
And I do that.
I don't share.
images of my daughter because she can tellme that she doesn't want me to.
(01:05:18):
So I know that her privacy is important toher.
And that's part of the reason I think thatI don't really enjoy accounts that follow
around autistic kids, especially if theydon't have communication, like they can't
really consent or, you know, not.
(01:05:39):
Yeah, I mean, and of course, to me, itmakes sense that it would not feel good to
you.
Like for like very similar to me is like Idon't it took me a while to understand the
the downside of sharing my kids on socialmedia.
I didn't like do it a whole lot, but Iwasn't actively not doing it.
And now, like so if I use a picture of myfamily as like a thumbnail for a YouTube
(01:06:03):
video or something, everybody's face getsblurred out except for mine.
It's like, yes, my family exists, but toyou, they're just an idea.
It's like, I will share the idea of myfamily.
You don't need to know exactly who theyare.
You just need to know that I have a familyand sometimes I feel like I'm failing
them.
And that is, you know, that's part of myplatform is like, I mess up sometimes, but
I constantly keep showing up and trying.
(01:06:26):
And, but that was not how it always was.
And it's, it's okay to make those mistakesand realize like, oh crap, I've been
oversharing, but at some point you have totake responsibility.
of the fact that you were putting tons ofphotos of your children out there to be
used, however, and then in the case thatyou were speaking of, you're putting
entire stories and narratives aboutchildren out there that they don't get a
(01:06:50):
say of.
And at some point they might be made awareof that and completely disagree.
Like over my shoulder, Mike, one of mykids was like, why didn't you blow our
faces out?
And I was like, because you're not oldenough to make the decision yet.
That's okay.
And whenever you are, you can have yourown social media.
I don't want to share that.
Yeah, my thoughts about the, especiallyabout non -speaking kids is a lot of
(01:07:15):
parents will be like, they don't evenknow.
They won't.
And I'm like, no, if you don't have acommunication, you do not know that.
My child has such eagle eyes.
She can look at my phone upside down from,you know, eight feet away and know what I
am doing.
She, she.
than that, even if they didn't know, youdo.
(01:07:37):
Your responsibility is to protect them, toprotect their stories, to do what is best
for them and sharing their story withouttheir consent is not what's best for them.
And if they can't consent, then don'tfucking share it.
That's my opinion.
Yeah, no, I am of the same opinion.
And I think that you have to reallyconsider like, what's the value of that,
(01:08:08):
of sharing something personal about yourkid.
And I always think about my own mom.
Like if social media had been around,like, oh my God.
we would have been humiliated children.
Have you watched the America's FunniestHome Videos recently?
Like I started rewatching it with my kidsand it's still funny, but so much of it is
(01:08:31):
like shaming children and like, you know,it's just like all of a sudden you realize
how jacked up the 90s were.
I was like, oh my God, like, you know,it's like, people would just get hurt like
tragically and it's like, I got it onvideo.
And it's like, it's okay.
and go, oh my god, do they have to go tothe hospital after this?
It's like nobody cares as long as it'srecorded like we might win some money for
(01:08:54):
this and like i'm talking to my my oldestdaughter and she's like That wasn't funny.
That was really uncomfortable and I waslike I was like what humor was has changed
drastically in the last 15 years it wasokay to shame people to maim people to do
whatever to get a laugh and Everybody wasin on the joke.
(01:09:16):
Everybody was okay with it and now in like
This is the landscape has shifted so muchto where like if there is a person in the
center of this joke being hurt, it's allof a sudden we realize it's not funny and
it's just realizing how much of thecontent over the last 20, 30 years was
(01:09:36):
built based upon that.
Like I'm gonna go back, try to share anold movie with my kids.
I was like, this is so cringy becausethat's what it was based off of is like.
making laughs off of the backs of otherpeople and it was like oh man I got to
reassess sharing some of this stuff afterwe watch it first but that you know I
(01:09:59):
think that's a pretty good place to stopbut I want to make sure you give time to
share your like what you like you knowtalk about your consulting you know your
Instagram profile anything that you'd liketo share to the audience
Okay.
Yeah, I am the author of three books, twoof them are on self care and community
(01:10:20):
care for parents of children withdisabilities.
And both of those are called ThrivingTogether.
And I also have written a third bookcalled Meeting Myself in the Dark, which
is a shadow work journal with prompts fornerd virgin people.
And all those are available on on Amazon.
(01:10:42):
and you can find my social media profiles.
I am on Instagram and threads which is thecool Twitter and my handle is just dr.
Alondra Rogers and the name of myconsultancy is Divergent Autism Services
(01:11:03):
so you can also find my website where Iblog occasionally.
Yeah that's it!
And if you wanna, if you just wanna sendme all of that stuff in the email, I'll
post it all in the show description sopeople can find you.
This has been a great conversation.
I really truly enjoyed it.
To my audience, this has been Dr.
(01:11:25):
Alondra Rogers, and I hope that you gainedsomething from this conversation.
And I'm Coach Bruce, and if you arelooking to really find that inner voice we
were talking about earlier and learn totrust the impulse that you have.
Feel free to go to my website,AuthenticIdentityManagement .com, set up a
consultation at forward slashconsultation.
That is AuthenticIdentityManagement .comforward slash consultation.
(01:11:48):
And we can set up a free conversation andwe can give you a few strategies on how
you can start living your life on purposeand stop being, stop being at the whims of
what all is happening to you in your life.
This has been a great conversation.
Hang out with me for a minute and we willwrap this up.
Thank you everybody for listening.
(01:12:08):
I will see you again next week.
(01:12:30):
Mmm.
Hello and welcome back to Authentic On Airwith Bruce Alexander.
I'm your host, Bruce Alexander, and I amhere today with Dr.
Alondra Rogers.
And I'm going to have Dr.
Rogers tell us exactly who it is or whoshe is and what it is she does.
Thank you so much for being here, Dr.
Rogers.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hi, thanks for having me, Bruce.
You can just call me Alondra.
(00:52):
I am a social worker and an autismconsultant.
I also write books.
I am an autistic and ADHD woman.
I'm late diagnosed and I'm also a mom of anon -speaking autistic girl.
(01:12):
So.
I have that sort of trifecta of positionswhere I'm an autism professional, an
autism and ADHD individual and a parent.
So you are fully steeped in the traditionof neurodiversity.
and I'm interested in all, you know, everyissue that comes up affects me in some
(01:34):
way.
So yeah, I'm interested in all of it.
So talking about late diagnosis, I knowthat's like, it's really a hot topic at
the moment, but everybody's diagnosisstory is different.
Tell us a little bit about yours.
Yeah, well, I feel like it's how far backdo you go, you know?
(01:55):
Like, I first realized that I wasdifferent from other kids pretty much as
soon as I went to school.
And, you know, fast forward throughchildhood and early adulthood, I really
knew nothing about autism.
I knew a little bit more about ADHD.
It just wasn't something that I thought Ineeded to pay attention to.
(02:16):
So I didn't.
And when I met my husband and got married,I always knew, you know, there's something
about him that's different too.
And, you I was interested in mentalhealth, even when I first met him, when I
was, you know, 20 years old, and I justcouldn't figure it out.
(02:39):
So what do you mean there was somethingdifferent about him?
Was he different from you or was hedifferent from everybody?
both.
Yeah, we're different from each other.
And what I recognize now is that I havebetter masking skills than he does.
And that may or may not be due to, youknow, gender norms, or just ability, but
(03:05):
my ability to mask is greater than his.
So, you know, in college and going after
college to look for jobs.
He had such a hard time with socialaspects of everything, not just
socializing, but like going to a jobinterview and knowing how to put on that
(03:26):
mask of a job interview that I you know,everybody does, but everybody does a
little bit different.
And he really did not do thatsuccessfully.
So trying to teach him what I realized Iwas trying to teach him how to mask.
So many, many years go by and when we haveour child, I noticed that there are
(03:55):
differences about her too.
And she had a developmental regression.
So that's less common for autistic kids.
Most kids have delays.
She was on time for all of her earlymilestones until she was about...
just about two, and then she lost skills.
(04:16):
So in trying to figure out what was goingon, I came very quickly to the conclusion
that it was autism, but I didn't reallyknow about autism.
My knowledge was really based onstereotypes, based on what was portrayed
in media.
And so my idea of autism was like littleboys who...
(04:42):
wanted to play by themselves.
Yeah, exactly.
I didn't really know anything.
And that was remarkable to me, because,you know, I had worked in mental health
administration.
And one of the teams that I supported wasthe kids team.
(05:05):
And like, I went to their meetings.
And one of their meetings was a meetingwith families.
And
most of the people there had autistickids.
And, you know, still wasn't really seepingin.
And I remember that.
I think about that a lot when I'm tryingto do advocacy, is that people are not
(05:27):
tuned in.
Just trying to think about where was I?
Yeah, but so my daughter was diagnosed attwo and a half by the time that we asked
for an assessment.
to the time that she was diagnosed, I knewinstantly that that's what was going on
with my husband.
And I called his mom and I started askinghis mom questions about, you what was he
(05:52):
like when he was little, little?
And suddenly, you know, she told me thingsthat she'd never told me before.
Oh, he didn't talk at all until he wasthree.
He didn't say a word.
And then all of a sudden he was speakingin complete sentences.
His very first words were, I want moreKool -Aid, please.
That was the very first thing he eversaid.
(06:12):
And I was like, oh, check box.
And, you know, oh, he would run away fromschool and go home in the middle of the
day.
So, you know, eloping and he ran away atDisneyland, you know, these kinds of
stories.
And some of those stories are similar tomine.
(06:33):
I was an eloper.
We lived in kind of a bad part of...
of town outside LA and I was the like,that was in the 80s.
So like, I don't know how things work nowin California, but the very nice gang
members would bring me home.
(06:55):
I would run to the park and they knew whoI was.
So he'd bring me home to my parents whodidn't even know I was gone.
But yeah, so through the process of mydaughter being assessed and diagnosed,
immediately I was like, okay, he fits thestereotype, but I didn't really know what
the stereotype was.
(07:15):
And it took me probably, I'd say sixmonths longer to be turning that view onto
myself.
And, you know, suddenly the things that Ithought I was and the things I had been
diagnosed with didn't make any senseanymore.
Like, wait a second.
(07:36):
Okay, yeah, I have anxiety.
I've been diagnosed with depression, but Idon't really have stereotypical
depression.
They just didn't know what they werelooking at.
And I think that that happens a lot.
So in your practice, do you see a lot ofthis comparative diagnosis?
(07:56):
You know, people looking at their spousesand their children and it being a mirror
that eventually brings it back to them.
Yeah, and, you know, people who are otherthan male tend to have a different
experience too.
So women, but also people who have genderdiversity, their path to diagnosis is or
(08:21):
self diagnosis, either one is often longerand has more detours on it.
But definitely,
People who are in my position, latediagnosed women tend to have come to that
in a similar way, not exclusively, but alot of parents have their kids diagnosed
(08:46):
and are like, oh, wait a second, that isme too.
And some are having the assessors turn tothem and say, you might wanna get assessed
yourself.
Especially when you start saying thingslike, well, yeah, she does this or he does
that, but I did that too.
You know, it doesn't seem that strange.
(09:09):
And so we, the last time we spoke, we kindof talked about how, whenever you actually
went to diagnose, you had a majorfrustration in getting it done.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
yeah, of course.
So at the time, this will try to make itmeaningful.
At the time, my husband was active dutymilitary.
(09:32):
So our medical team was some of them werealso active duty, some of them were
civilians, but there's just a differentculture in the military community that
I think I would have had a differentexperience if I had gone to a civilian
doctor first, but I didn't have thatopportunity.
(09:54):
My doctor was uniformed.
I think he was a major.
I don't know.
Something like that.
Major?
Yeah.
I don't...
I'm gonna pretend like I know.
And so I told him, it's like, mydaughter's been diagnosed and I now
realize...
(10:15):
that I have all of these unexplainedsymptoms and experiences that make me
think I need to be assessed for autism.
And he looked at his nurse and was like,okay.
And they brought in the clinic's embeddedsocial worker.
I told her the same thing.
And then she went out in the hall andconferred with the doctor.
(10:38):
And they, instead of sending me to apsychologist to get an assessment like I
asked for,
they wanted me to see a therapist first.
So they sent me to a social worker.
And I was like, well, that's great.
You know, I was in social work school atthe time.
So I was doing therapy for soldiers.
(11:00):
And I thought, you know, it's just part ofthe work to also be going to therapy
yourself.
So I was like, this will be great.
I'll go in, I'll tell her I need myassessment, and then we can talk about
other things.
She'll give me my referral.
And the first thing that she said to mewhen I got to that part of my story is,
(11:21):
hey, I think I might be autistic and I'dlike to get assessed, is she said, you
can't be autistic because you're makingeye contact with me.
And, you know, first, that's a hugestereotype.
A lot of autistic people have the abilityto make eye contact.
But the thing about me is that I actuallyhave pretty limited eye contact.
(11:45):
I make eye contact with people that I'mclose to or strangely when I'm very angry,
I'll make eye contact.
But usually, I don't look at people'seyes.
I usually look at their mouths.
And there's, I think two reasons for that.
One, I avoid the discomfort of looking attheir eyes, but I also have auditory
(12:06):
processing issues.
So looking at their mouths helps me hearwhat they're saying.
And so I told her, you know, I understandthat it might look like I'm making eye
contact, but I'm actually looking at yourmouth.
And she argued with me about it.
She's like, no, no, you're looking at myeyes.
I'm looking at your face.
(12:26):
I guess that's close enough.
I did not get a referral from thosepeople.
I had to come back to it when I got a newdoctor.
So to pause on the story right there, thisability to make eye contact from what I've
learned myself is we are predisposed asautistic and ADHD people to certain
(12:50):
things.
We are not necessarily completelyobfuscated from anything.
We might have challenge.
I had a challenge to make eye contactthrough, sometimes it's masking, sometimes
it's through.
like gaining new skills is like I wantedto be able to like control the eye contact
(13:11):
game.
So I learned to get better at it.
I learned to like, you know, part of itwas like not staring at their eyes all the
time, but also like, like you said,looking at their mouth, looking at the
general part of their face, not lookingover here to have a conversation because
like I wanted to be taken seriously inconversation.
So I learned to level up that skill.
Do you think that that is that is oftenlike.
(13:34):
misconstrued as masking because you'relearning to improve how you communicate.
You know, I think it depends.
And like, in autism, kind of the name ofthe game is heterogeneity.
That is just a fancy word for meaningdiversity.
So everybody's brains, there's actuallystudies on brain wiring and
(14:00):
you.
I love this part.
I was gonna bring this back up.
So yeah, I could do this whole thing
this before.
So our brains, let me start over.
Neurotypical people's brains are generallyall very similar.
They function the same and on functionalMRIs where they watch how your brain is
(14:24):
communicating, neurotypical people'sbrains all look the same.
Autistic people's brains all lookdifferent.
from neurotypicals and from each other.
So there's general similarities, butautistic people are not all the same.
We all are different.
(14:47):
And so in every single trait or symptom orhowever you categorize it, you're gonna
find a lot of diversity.
So for some people, so my daughter is,she's 12, she's a non -speaking.
She does have a communication method, soI'm able to talk to her and get responses.
(15:08):
So for her, she says that eye contactcauses her physical pain, and that's not
an uncommon statement.
So for her, could she work on that?
If she wanted to, she could.
I would never push her to do that, and Inever have.
(15:29):
And...
I really think that there are truly, youknow, autistic people who cannot work on
that and get better at it without causingthemselves harm.
So I think it's very important that peoplelike teachers and parents know that, that
pushing people to learn skills canbackfire.
(15:52):
If they're not, if that's not a skill theywant to learn, if that's not something
that they can do,
Just expecting that they're going to beable to do it can actually backfire and
cause harm, cause trauma, you know?
And that's another bit of research onautistic people in particular, as well as
(16:13):
ADHD people.
ADHD people is that we're all more proneto experience events as traumatic and
experience more trauma, even despite that.
So...
what would typical people would experienceas trauma, we are exposed to more of those
kinds of experiences.
(16:34):
And I want to say something judgmental,but it's neurotypical people who are
responsible for that.
It's not our fault.
Well, and then, you know, to furtherworsen that situation, neurotypical people
don't have to deal with the dialogue ofthe thing that they just did in their head
constantly running.
So the traumatic thing happens no matterwho was caused by.
(16:58):
Then it's re -traumatized by us relivingit in our heads at least once and
sometimes many, many times over as wecontinue to beat ourselves up and, you
know, and say, I should have done thisinstead of that and guilt ourselves and
shame ourselves.
And so it's like this
this never it's not never ending.
It can be ending.
You can.
This is another thing that with the rightwork and then it all goes back into like
(17:20):
the pain game is like is the pain you'rein worth gaining the skill or is like
would gaining the skill cause more painthan just surviving the way it is because
it all it all goes back to that.
has to be the choice for the individual.
They have to decide because that's thedifference between trauma and growth is
(17:41):
making the decision to do something hardbecause you know you can do it.
But also, you know, autism is a disabilityand it's okay if you can't do some things.
It's okay.
So my daughter makes eye contact veryrarely.
When she does, it's always about asuperior type of connection.
(18:05):
But most of the time she doesn't and it'sokay.
For me, eye contact feels intimate.
So if I am having eye contact with someonethat I don't have a strong relationship
with, I feel really uncomfortable.
(18:27):
So
I can, you know, what I learned to do as achild is to look at someone's face without
looking at their eyes to accommodate, youknow, my grandma telling me you look at me
when I talk to you and my own level ofcomfort.
So that's a compromise that I have madeand that has worked for me.
(18:52):
I would say my husband is in the middle.
He makes eye contact sometimes.
He can if I, you know, ask him to, but atthe same time, you know, I don't need to
ask him to, you know?
(19:13):
Something that is really important forpeople to know is that for an autistic
person, we don't filter information.
the way neurotypical people filterinformation.
So when I look at someone while I amtrying to think or do anything else, I am
(19:38):
now getting so much more information fromyou that it's distracting.
So I like, I notice one of the things thatif I'm trying to mask that I try to...
differently is when I am speaking, Ihardly ever look at the person because I'm
(19:58):
trying to think and I can't think and lookat you at the same time.
So if you know, I'm sure if you watch thislater, you'll watch like every time I
talk, I'm like looking over here becauseI'm trying to think about what I'm saying
versus you know, how are you reacting?
How are you taking it?
(20:18):
Are you understanding me?
Like I can't deal with all of that stuff.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's like all that feedback is alot.
And as a coach for ADHD parents and youknow, I don't coach anybody who's
currently identifies as autistic, butthere's, there's some of that in there.
It's the, the urging for them tounderstand why they're doing what they're
doing.
(20:38):
It's like, if you're masking, are youdoing it for a reason that is worthy of
shrinking yourself?
Because they're, I mean, uh, on my lastepisode, I talked to, uh, a person who
talked about,
her autism, I'm sorry, their autism andhow it is important to go out safely as I
go out softly, come home safe.
(20:59):
It is this idea that there are, there arecertain amounts of things that are worthy
to shrink just a little bit because youget to come home alive.
Like, you know, showing up all the time asyourself does not always equate to safety
for everyone.
I am, I am a large man who is imposing.
(21:20):
I can get away with being fully myselfmost of the time and not feeling
intimidated.
That's not the same for everybody else.
So I choose not to mask to very like,we're hardly any degree.
There are skills that I've decided I wantto have.
It's like, it's not like me trying to makemore eye contact when it feels comfortable
is not me trying to act like a neuro-typical.
(21:42):
It is something that I decided, like, Ifeel like that makes me feel more seen and
valued in a conversation.
So I want to offer that as an option forother people.
If it doesn't feel right in aconversation, I don't try to press that
because it's something that I want to bean exchange.
Like I all want it to be a better exchangebetween other people.
So it's not about me trying to shrink whoI am.
(22:05):
It's me trying to be the best version ofmyself directed towards exchanging with
other people in those spaces.
And I think that, you know, that'sperfectly okay.
My sort of social work perspective onanything is that people get to do what
they want to do so long as it's nothurting anybody else.
(22:27):
And I always want to hold space for peoplewho cannot do that.
You know, that's okay, too.
And I think it's worth mentioning herethat
masking can be, and it's not, you know,just eye contact, it's, you know, masking
(22:51):
in the broad sense, can, can be automatic,can be something that you're not even
aware that you're doing for safety.
And that varies from what your identityis.
But I think it's a common experience for alot of different people.
(23:14):
So I think as a woman, I might mask incertain situations that I might feel
threatened without even thinking about it.
And I think I would be remiss if I didn'tmention that there was recently a shooting
by police of a black autistic 15 year oldboy.
(23:38):
And that should remind all of us that...
there are risks to not masking.
Unfortunately.
and part of that is you know once againbeing aware of being aware of your
capacity and what like what's your whatthe deficiency is between where you exist
(24:01):
and where you Are like what's your placeis in neurotypical society like there is
once I understood that a lot of the thingsthat I was showing up as in neurotypical
society was because I was told sit stillDon't talk when other people are talking
I was told to shrink who I was and I justdid that because that's what you know,
(24:22):
like authority figures were telling methat's who I was supposed to be as I grew
older and that like those urges were stillthere and I was still hearing those same
things.
I was able to do work on myself andrealize that that they're not allowed to
tell me that like that is it's my choiceto decide how much of myself I want to
give to people and if they don't like it,they can they can remove themselves from
(24:43):
my space and.
Then I was able to like understanding thatfirst was a huge component because if I
didn't know where where all of this stuffwas coming from, I didn't know how to make
adjustments to then understand like whatis me, what is actually me?
And then once you understand who you are,then you can start to say, okay, this is
(25:05):
the piece that is that I would like tobring back into myself to then go out into
that society because it's important to doA, B and C.
Like I need to go get a job.
I need to.
make money, I need to be able to, youknow, have a relationship with friends or
whatever.
Once I realized all of that, then it waslike, okay, I don't really I'm going to
(25:25):
work for myself because I don't want totry to show up at a nine to five job and
be unhappy all the time to make dollarsthat didn't really buy happiness.
I remember being 18 years old, graduatedfrom high school, and I was going to
community college and I had to work a full-time job.
(25:46):
And I remember coming home after like weektwo crying, like, I cannot do this my
whole life.
This is misery.
I was like, I definitely am going to go tocollege and do what I want to do.
And I sort of do that.
Well, because my daughter has really highneeds, I have to be really flexible.
(26:16):
So I definitely have that.
So it's mostly worked out.
I thought I would do therapy, but notherapy for me.
Not anymore, yeah.
I actually really do like consultingbecause I do have flexibility and I have a
(26:39):
lot of prominent ADHD features.
Like I like change and I like doingdifferent things.
So I like having different projects comeup and people with different issues than
the last person that I helped.
I enjoy them.
moving through all these different spacesand dealing with ADHD and autistic people
(27:02):
on so many different levels, what do youfeel like the biggest challenge to showing
up as yourself is that you seecomprehensively?
Mm.
I am a natural oversharer.
So when when I was in therapy school, Iwas very observant of boundaries and
(27:27):
rigidity about sharing anything.
And now there is in therapy, you can likedisclose something.
or talk about some experience for yourselfand they call it the use of self.
And I was really nervous about ever doingthat because I didn't feel like I knew I
(27:52):
couldn't predict what the consequenceswould be two or three steps down the road.
So I didn't want to do that.
But I felt inauthentic in that way that Icouldn't do that.
And
So as a consultant, I still struggle withthat, but I believe that part of
(28:20):
connecting as an autistic person is doingthat, is saying, I see you because I know
what that's like.
Here's what it was like for me.
That matters so much.
I think to me as an autistic person, itmatters.
And...
to neurotypical people were always told,don't make it about you.
(28:44):
But that's how autistic people connect isI know that you know, because you just
told me that you had something just likethat happen to you.
So it's really helpful.
Yeah, as a coach, that's that's everythingabout earning the trust of the client is
like, you have to know that I see you.
(29:05):
And if I'm dealing with, you know,exclusively ADHD and autistic people, they
need to know that I've that I've beenthrough it or I've been connected to it to
a degree in which I can explain it back tothem basically, as if I've lived it.
And once they once they've heard enough ofthose stories are able to to stop thinking
I'm judging them while they're sharingtheir truth.
And that is like up to that point.
(29:27):
It's just, you know, us like, you know,kind of tiptoeing on eggshells because
they're like, I can't really open up totell you what I need to tell you until I
see that you really get me.
And I still think it's really important tohave boundaries.
Like I'm not going to share some intimatedetail like, oh, my, I got an argument
with my husband yesterday and I'm going totell you about it.
(29:48):
You know, like that's too personal, but tobe able to tell someone, you know, yeah, I
have a child with high needs and I knowwhat it's like to struggle, to do self
-care.
Like, you know, that's something that Iwant to be able to share in a way that is
meaningful.
(30:09):
So I still struggle with, okay, where'sthe line?
But I always err on the side of caution.
And so as you know, luckily for me being alife coach, that boundary is totally
different.
It's like I like very much my life is anopen book.
It's like this is something I'm strugglingwith because they come to me because I'm
(30:30):
able to struggle with these things openlyand able to have the conversations that
get me out of those situations.
And if they, if they define this personwho never struggles, then I never have the
testimony to offer them with thosestruggles.
And that's, you know, and that's verydifferent.
You've got degrees to offer.
You have got like, you know, years andyears of training.
(30:50):
I've got years and years of experience ofjust living and fucking up.
Like that is like, I'm bringing you all ofmy, you know, all of my testimonies of
just messing things up and they're allyours to read through and share.
And the, I think the, the life coaches whoaren't who I'm not going to say are, they
might be successful, but who aren't doinggood work are the ones who are trying to
(31:12):
do therapy with a life coach experience.
Like you can't do it.
You're not a therapist.
You're not a doctor.
If you are, and if you're trying to do theopposite as a therapist, be careful.
Because that boundary gets very confusingif you're sharing all of your personal
shit and experiences and trying to stickto the formulaic logic that exists in the
(31:36):
therapy world.
It's gonna get really, really dicey.
Yeah, it doesn't work that way.
Therapy does not allow that because thesupreme rule of therapy is that you are
there for that person and the boundary isvery thick.
(31:57):
The boundary between you and me, if you'remy client, is really, really thick because
you don't want to cross any lines.
There's also a power.
differential when you go to aprofessional, whether you realize it or
not, there's a power difference.
(32:17):
So as a therapist, you have to be really,really careful with that power.
So you don't want to...
as you hire a therapist, you are deferringlike you're deferring the like the
entrance into your mind.
Like there's no earning it.
Like soon as you book the appointment, youhave already deferred to let this person
(32:37):
into your mind and start poking around.
So if they then were to shrink thatboundary and to like, I mean, that's how
inappropriate relationships happen in thatworld is because.
really true issue.
Even I mean, you know, everyone thinksabout like, you know, romantic
relationships or sexual relationships asbeing the big problem.
That's a problem, too.
(32:58):
But there are like, the line of friendshipor like, dual relationships is what they
call them.
But yeah, like, oh, if maybe if you stopbeing my client, we can be friends like,
that's
You can't ever do that.
(33:18):
You can't ever undo the relationship thatyou had first.
So.
That sounds so like...
Does that hurt?
Oh, um...
I would think that it's more concerningfor the client because something when I
(33:42):
did therapy, so just to like be clear, Ihave a non -clinical license right now.
I don't do therapy.
But when I was doing like my internship orwhatever,
you have learned all the rules of therapyand it's very clear to you what those are.
(34:05):
So it did not bother me at all because Ifelt like having those boundaries is like
a duty to your client.
That's the right thing to do thatpreserves their safety and trust.
So it never bothered me.
(34:25):
But one of the ways I think thattherapists and the institution of therapy
fails clients is that we never educateclients on what therapy is, what it looks
like, what is this relationship.
Because, you know, if you've never gone totherapy before, how are you supposed to
(34:47):
know what it's like?
Like, it's just...
A lot of people think that they don't needtherapy because they can just talk to
their friends because that's what it feelslike when they go to therapy sometimes is
you're just sitting there talking aboutyour problems.
But there is actually something else goingon.
But if you never explain that to people,then they don't know.
(35:10):
Well, what's the explanation?
What should the therapy world be tellingpeople?
Well, I think they should be tellingpeople what is this relationship?
So as your therapist, I'm not a friend.
I'm not someone who's going to fix yourlife for you.
What we're gonna do, and it depends,depends on what your goals are.
(35:32):
Some kind of therapy is like, we're gonnaspend years talking about your childhood
and how it affected you and how you canrepair.
Or you might want to do 10 weeks oftherapy to get over your divorce or
something.
(35:52):
You know, it totally depends.
But I just think that it should be talkedabout.
And there's just lots of things thataren't talked about.
I think every time someone starts therapy,the therapist should remind them, I'm a
mandatory reporter.
So if you tell me about anybody,
(36:13):
who is a vulnerable person, a child, yourgrandma, you know, your disabled cousin,
if there's any kind of abuse, and itdoesn't just mean, you know, hitting
someone.
It could be my brother's taking money frommy grandma.
That's a reportable issue, and peopleshould know in advance.
(36:37):
Yeah, it's I never had any desire.
So there's this these worlds that I alwaysthought I would have to go in to do the
work that I was called to do.
I would either have to go into the worldof the church and be a pastor or I would
have to go into therapy or counseling.
I got like, that's where I would have tobe.
So I always push this calling away becauseI didn't want to like have that thick
(36:59):
boundary between people or I didn't wantto have that superstrict dogma to live by.
None of that sounded any kind of good tome.
the when you do life coaching, right?
When you are like completely willing tocreate a space that is where first off, I
have to have my my plate clean.
I have to be willing to be totallyvulnerable and honest.
So whenever you come into my space, I'mable to hold space for you.
(37:23):
Korea and like if my soul is clean and Ican hold up a mirror so you can just see
what you are dealing with and I can justhold space for that and ask the right
questions to deal with what is on yourmind.
and what is blocking you from wherever itis we've decided that you want to get to,
that is literally all I have to do.
And then just keep, hold you responsiblefor the goal that you stated as we move
(37:49):
forward.
It's like you stated this is what youwanted.
Are you sticking to it?
And it is really so powerful how somethingthat simple can get so much done.
It's like just, but it's like, as soon asI'm not being honest, as soon as you're
not being honest, it doesn't work.
Like if you're hiding behind your lies toyourself, if you're not being honest to
(38:10):
the questions you're asking me, there isno transformation.
If I'm coming into it and I've got my ownbaggage I'm carrying into it and I'm
triggered by what you're saying, I am notgonna be able to hold space in the proper
way and it doesn't work.
Like it's so interesting to see all thishappen.
Yeah, and I don't want to therapy istransformational to especially if you have
(38:35):
a therapist that you do connect with.
It's really wonderful and powerful.
I had an experience where I had weeklytherapy for two years and it really did
change my life.
That was before I went to therapy school.
(38:56):
But you know what, it's not for everyone.
There's a high rate of burnout because youhave so much emotional investment.
And I know for me that as a, you know,working 40 hours a week during therapy, I
don't think I could do that.
And part of that is because of my, some ofmy autistic traits like hyper empathy.
(39:20):
I can't not feel what the person isfeeling.
Um...
makes me wanna ask the question again, howwere you okay with that thick boundary
between you and them when you're feelinghyper empathetic for them going through a
struggle?
How did you survive that?
It's it's hard.
(39:42):
The way that I managed it was to reallyuse the tools that I was given in school
to and in my training.
School gives you a lot but also you know,like when I did my internship, I had a
(40:03):
senior social worker that I worked withwho was he was awesome.
He was like,
40 year veteran, had a lot of experiencedoing therapy.
Being able to tune myself, I don't evenknow how to explain this, tune myself
(40:24):
wholly to the other person.
So I would hear my own sort of.
thoughts about what was going on, but itwas in a sense like I'm outside of me and
totally focused on the other person.
That level of emotional effort is notsomething that I could sustain 40 hours a
(40:48):
week.
But I still found myself reallyemotionally invested in my clients.
And my very first...
experience with therapy, I worked withsoldiers who were transitioning out of the
(41:11):
military.
There was a special unit for soldiers thathad been injured or were ill and were
transitioning out of the military, so Idid kind of short -term therapy with them.
And I still remember the very firstpatient I ever saw.
And I so hope that he's doing well becausehe had been through unbelievable things.
(41:39):
And yeah, I was really emotionallyinvested and that is, there's a very fine
line of how much investment you shouldhave.
And I don't know if I would have, youknow, ever got that right.
Because yeah.
(42:01):
I don't know how to completely turn thatoff, but I think I did well while I was
doing it.
But I'm also, I'm very glad to have adifferent model to work on now.
And that's the consulting, right?
(42:22):
So this something that I've I've beenuncovering as I've been doing my work with
my clients is we are like as ADHD andautistic people, we are taught for so long
that everything that like our impulses arewrong are like our inner voice is is
stupid and it's lying and we should notlisten to it.
You know, if like our urge to move iswrong, like everything that we're doing is
(42:46):
just wrong.
My goal has become to help people re likestart to retrust that in that impulsivity,
retrust that inner voice that tells you itwithin a framework, like not to just, you
know, uncaged to beast and let it runwild, but you know, to live by a code like
(43:06):
a standard of living and then to trustyour inner voice.
What did like, what does that make youlike?
What do you think of that?
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, I actually have a little phrase forthat and I call it living a neurodivergent
lifestyle.
So there's a lot of aspects of that, butone aspect of that is listening to your
(43:27):
own needs and being able to understandthem.
So that's really tricky when you'retalking about impulsivity because some
impulses can be dangerous.
You know, people have like...
impulses to do drugs or have risky sexualbehaviors like these can be damaging to
(43:52):
you.
So on the one hand you have to determinewhat's the need behind the impulse.
So if your need behind the impulse issomething you can recognize like I'm low
on dopamine.
then you can make a good choice aboutdoing something a little bit different.
(44:15):
And movement is always a great way toaddress some of those impulses.
Yeah, and what I've found is that a lot ofit is so where we miss, we miss construe
what that inner voice is telling usbecause we've got so much junk in our
(44:35):
head.
Like, and part of my program is liketeaching people how to get the junk out of
your head.
And then like first thing in the morning,you have to do like a meditation and then
a like we use what's called the stack.
It was what's this program where you areable to.
Basically have a conversation withyourself and work through whatever
feelings you are having to start the day.
Then you do some movement.
(44:56):
Then you like you put some love into thepeople that are important to you.
And that allows you to like kind ofweaponize your mind to be able to actually
hear what you're trying to tell yourselfversus having all these distracting
thoughts saying like I need to take careof my body.
You know, like there's you know, all thesethings running through my mind because I
haven't made any peace there.
I'm ignoring my wife.
But as soon as you do all those things tostart your day, all of a sudden,
(45:19):
you're free to actually think about whatis going to drive you forward today.
And it's been pretty powerful.
Yeah, I think that's good advice.
If you take the time to just have somemindfulness, instead of reacting to
(45:43):
everything is taking the time to actuallyconsider where you are and what you want
to do.
Yeah.
So, as we're just gonna start to wrap uphere, but before we get too far close to
the end, you mentioned as like you weregoing through the process of diagnosing
(46:09):
your daughter that she reverted on some ofher skills.
And I didn't wanna go without talkingabout that part.
Like, how did you find that?
How did you find the reversion of yourdaughter in this process?
Yeah, so she had this noticeable change.
(46:29):
And it's less common, but it's notuncommon for autistic kids to have this
similar experience.
Hers was quite dramatic, and that's a bitunusual.
So she developed pretty normally.
Looking back, she had a lot of sensoryissues.
(46:50):
And by the time she was about nine monthsold, I expected that she would get a
diagnosis of sensory processing disorder.
But, you know, she was speaking, shewalked early, like she was walking at nine
months old.
Because I think she had a tremendous driveto move.
She used to cry if she wasn't moving, likeyou had to...
(47:13):
My husband would say she's like a shark.
She can't stop moving.
And before she could do that on her own,we would have to be moving.
So carrying her around, I would wear herin a little whatever, you know, little
carriers.
I couldn't think of it.
And take her everywhere, all around thehouse.
(47:37):
But about...
I'd say about 18 months, I noticedsomething change.
She just stopped talking as much.
And very gradually over months, shestarted losing speech.
She stopped responding to her name.
(47:58):
When I would call her, you know, she usedto look, she stopped doing that.
She started having kind of differentbehaviors than she did before where she
would like,
She had a glow stick, like my husband hadthese like military glow sticks in his kit
and he gave her one one day and she heldonto that glow stick 100 % of the time she
(48:24):
was awake and she'd fall asleep and whenshe woke up she would look for her glow
stick and she didn't play with any othertoys.
You know, it was unusual and...
It was very interesting because herpediatrician, when I came to her and said,
I'm having concerns that she's losingskills and I would like her to have an
(48:46):
autism assessment, the pediatrician said,well, she said hello to me and she waved
and she's looking at me.
So I don't think that that's a problem.
But if you want a referral, you can justcall these people yourself.
So she gave me this little pamphlet.
I called them.
(49:07):
and they made an appointment and like twoweeks later they saw her and they told me
they were absolutely certain that she wasautistic and they fast -tracked.
They called in favors to get her diagnosedquickly.
So at the time we were living in Kansasand the wait list was nine months to get
(49:31):
seen at the one of the two places in thestate that did autism assessments.
And this local county zero to threeprogram was able to get one of the
universities to come out and do six autismassessments for the military because we
lived in a rural community in one day.
(49:52):
So we did get her diagnosed really quicklywithin two months.
So that's a pretty like, I mean, thatcollapses the time for the assessment,
which is nice, but for you, that meansthat that like speeds up your time to
grieve the life that you knew.
How did that affect you?
(50:14):
It was very...
I don't know if I don't think of it asgrief.
I just think of it as like orienting.
I had to reorient myself to what the worldactually was for us.
(50:38):
You know, yeah, I had expectations.
You know, I thought she would...
go to ballet class and read aloud to meand do all these things that were
different.
And in my mind at that time, I thought thefaster we get our diagnosed, the faster
(51:02):
we'll get intervention and things willjust be normal.
Eventually she'll just be pretty much likeI was, like weird, but okay.
Things are different than that too.
You know, I've had to reassess what ismany times and I've never thought of it as
(51:29):
grieving because I'm lucky to have her andI love the way she is.
It is different than pretty much anybodyelse I know.
I mean, the reason why I use the wordgrieving is because we build these lives,
like, you know, these whole lives ofimagination, you know, my kids as well,
(51:52):
with like, based on certain things that wethink that we know.
And then life happens.
And it turns out that that life is notgoing to happen.
That life is, it's dead.
And so for me, like a process of grief,like grief is not a bad thing.
Grief is a necessary action to be able tomove on properly.
to the new life.
(52:14):
And so for me, like I say, grieve thatbecause you seem like you are very like
all in into the life that you are leadingand you're not like, you know, regretful
of any of it.
So like, it seems like you did grievethat, but that's just me on the outside,
not having that much information.
I mean, I processed the change.
I did.
(52:35):
But that's an ongoing process too, becauseI have had expectations change all along
the way.
Yeah, pretty much frequently.
And I am
comfortable with that if I know, this isso funny, I'm comfortable with the changes
(53:03):
if I know what to expect next.
That makes me feel safe as long as I havesome kind of control, which of course is
just silly because I have no control.
But the way that I...
hope with that is like, okay, what's thenext thing I need to do?
(53:27):
How I help her and
I've been really lucky to be able to do alot to help her, especially with
communication, because she has absolutelyno language.
She occasionally says yes.
But that's it.
(53:47):
So having communication means everything.
So yeah, once...
Once we get over kind of that initiallike, okay, things are not going to be the
way that I thought they were, then youmake a new picture in your mind of what
it's going to be.
And then you adapt when it's not like thateither.
(54:11):
Do you feel like you're the combination ofyour training in the fields that you've
been trained in and your ADHD allows foryou to adapt that picture faster?
I absolutely do.
Yes.
it's like you said, as long as I'm okaywith the change ADHD, as long as I know
what's gonna happen next and because ofyour, but you also have the training to
(54:34):
understand what is likely to happen next.
And that is, so that's actually theperfect mix of things happening.
empowered by my training to managewhatever happens.
That has come in handy in lots ofdifferent experiences in my life.
(54:57):
I definitely feel like I have a handle onit.
I also feel like this is terrible, but Ialso feel like when I go to...
providers, my daughter's providers, andthey know that I have doctorate that they
treat me differently.
Oh, that's not terrible.
(55:17):
I mean, yes, it's terrible for them.
It's great for you, though.
Obviously.
Yes.
fair that they don't treat every parentlike that.
I mean, but then you have to be balanced.
The fact that you're a woman and then, youknow, they take you less seriously because
you're a woman.
So maybe you get treated like a regularperson just because you have a doctor.
one of the things that I actually make aneffort to do is to make sure that all of
(55:40):
her providers are women.
And that's part of the reason is thatthere's an equality there that I don't
have to deal with when it's a maleprovider.
Because that is, you know, one more thingto have to deal with.
(56:01):
And I do...
I absolutely love her providers.
Like I said, we were in the military, sowe had a lot of different ones for her
first eight years.
And the last four years when my husbandhas been out, it has been so nice.
I just get no pushback.
(56:25):
Well, speaking of like providers resourceson last week's episode, Autism Speaks came
up and I was okay.
That face was something that was new tome.
Like I did not, I did not know like I forone being on the spectrum of something
that is also new to me.
So I had no, no correlation to AutismSpeaks, but I was told and I, you are
(56:50):
somebody who's knowledgeable in this.
I want to just, you know, to counter checkit.
that there's no there's no autistic peopleon the board whatsoever.
And that is very much it is about curingautism versus giving resources to help
autistic people exist as they are.
me give you a little bit of nuance.
So first, Autism Speaks is the biggestautism charity in the world.
(57:16):
They are incredibly unpopular withautistic people.
They're pretty popular with parents ofautistic kids.
The reason that they are unpopular withautistic people is...
most of their history.
So they were created by some grandparentsof a child who was autistic in the 90s and
(57:42):
their goal was to cure autism.
So that was their mission for most oftheir existence and a lot of their PR
really painted autism as a tragedy andautistic people as a burden without, I
mean not directly meaning to do that, butthat was the result.
(58:02):
And at one point they did have a couple ofautistic people on their board and those
people resigned.
And I think that they do have a couple ofautistic people that I don't think they're
on their board of directors, but there area couple of autistic people that do work
with them now.
But their history has done a lot of harmand they've really tried to adapt to the
(58:31):
interpretation that
most people have had of them, mostautistic people, they have tried to make
some changes, but their budget is stillreflective of their values and they don't
really provide any help for autisticadults or children.
They mainly are devoting money to researchand cause causation.
(58:55):
They're still invested in curing whetheror not they say they are.
So I would say, you know what, they createa lot of resources and some of them are
okay.
Some of them I don't particularly like.
I never recommend them because they're amixed bag.
(59:21):
I hope.
you recommend?
If you were looking for resources for ADHDand autism, what are the resources that
you suggest to your clients, to whomever?
Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on, youknow, what are they looking for?
What do they need?
I mean, there are some really bigorganizations that have all kinds of
(59:44):
resources, like especially for ADHD, likeChad is a huge organization that has all
kinds of resources, has been aroundforever.
So they have tons of articles oneverything.
For autistic people,
I would say, you know, what is it thatthey're looking for?
There are organizations that are devotedto different kind of aspects of autism or
(01:00:11):
like there's the Autism Self AdvocacyNetwork, which is focused on autistic
adults.
There's the Autistic Women, I think, Non-Binary Network.
I'm not sure if their name is reflectiveof...
you know, gender inclusion.
There's the yellow ladybugs, which is forautistic girls, or they probably also are
(01:00:39):
gender inclusive.
You know, it depends on on what you'relooking for.
It's kind of hard to say.
This show is primarily for parents, likeadult parents who have ADHD or autism,
which means that if they have children,there's a likelihood that they are
(01:00:59):
probably parenting it as well.
But I'm trying to focus more on being aresource for and helping provide resources
for the parents themselves for ADHD andautism.
Yeah.
Well, I would say that anotherorganization that I want to mention is
neuroclastic.
(01:01:20):
Neuroclastic has tons of articles onvarious subjects.
And is it called embrace autism?
They also have lots of scientificallyfocused information that is endlessly
useful, but broadly,
(01:01:42):
if you're looking for resources, youshould consider the sources.
So I definitely think that following onsocial media, you know, other parents or
organizations that reflect your values andyour needs.
So yeah, if you're an autistic parent andyou want to find other autistic parents,
(01:02:06):
yeah, look, look for them, take a look atwhat they're sharing.
and don't be afraid to unfollow accountsthat aren't reflecting your values.
In the autism community, there's so manycreators.
(01:02:27):
Some of them just share kind of humorouscontent.
Some of them use their children ascontent.
And I'm not a big fan of that, actually.
Um, and then, you know, there's peoplelike me who are professionals and autistic
(01:02:47):
and parent.
Um, so I think casting a wide net and justfollowing a bunch of accounts and
unfollowing ones when you think, gosh,that's not really for me.
That's okay too.
And I think that's really important thatyou mention that because a lot of people
feel like once they start followingsomebody and feel some sort of loyalty to
(01:03:09):
like, you know, to the accounts, like,well, I didn't like that one, but I'm,
they provided me so much or whatever.
It's like you, it's okay to just no longeralign with what somebody is posting
because social media is a world of likeconstant evolution and people are trying
to like attract new people all the time.
So they might pivot any point and stopmaking the content that you brought you
(01:03:30):
there.
It's okay to back away for your own, likeyour own mental health.
It's important.
It's actually important to do it, to saylike, this is not something I want to see
on a daily basis.
I don't want to be guilted or ashamed or,you know, fear might feed.
Yeah, for me, I, not too long ago, I juststarted unfollowing accounts that featured
(01:03:52):
their young children without anyprotection of their privacy.
Because I'm uncomfortable with that.
And there's an account that I really like.
His name is Shaden.
I can't remember what the name of like theaccount is, but he is.
(01:04:13):
Um, you know, he's an older child.
He's like 12 or 13, and this is somethinghe does with his mom.
He presents himself and he talks abouttopics that are important to him.
That's the kind of content that I thinkis, is awesome.
He is a self advocate and he is sharinghis experience.
(01:04:34):
He's not being, you know, he's not aproduct that is being created by the
parent and saying, you know, whatever.
whatever the parent wants to say.
And there are a lot of great parentcontent creators that also are protective
of their children's identities.
You know, they don't show their names,they, you know, hide their faces or, you
(01:04:57):
know, cover it up or something.
I really do respect that.
I respect the desire as a parent to sharewith other parents, like what you have
learned.
And I do that.
I don't share.
images of my daughter because she can tellme that she doesn't want me to.
(01:05:18):
So I know that her privacy is important toher.
And that's part of the reason I think thatI don't really enjoy accounts that follow
around autistic kids, especially if theydon't have communication, like they can't
really consent or, you know, not.
(01:05:39):
Yeah, I mean, and of course, to me, itmakes sense that it would not feel good to
you.
Like for like very similar to me is like Idon't it took me a while to understand the
the downside of sharing my kids on socialmedia.
I didn't like do it a whole lot, but Iwasn't actively not doing it.
And now, like so if I use a picture of myfamily as like a thumbnail for a YouTube
(01:06:03):
video or something, everybody's face getsblurred out except for mine.
It's like, yes, my family exists, but toyou, they're just an idea.
It's like, I will share the idea of myfamily.
You don't need to know exactly who theyare.
You just need to know that I have a familyand sometimes I feel like I'm failing
them.
And that is, you know, that's part of myplatform is like, I mess up sometimes, but
I constantly keep showing up and trying.
(01:06:26):
And, but that was not how it always was.
And it's, it's okay to make those mistakesand realize like, oh crap, I've been
oversharing, but at some point you have totake responsibility.
of the fact that you were putting tons ofphotos of your children out there to be
used, however, and then in the case thatyou were speaking of, you're putting
entire stories and narratives aboutchildren out there that they don't get a
(01:06:50):
say of.
And at some point they might be made awareof that and completely disagree.
Like over my shoulder, Mike, one of mykids was like, why didn't you blow our
faces out?
And I was like, because you're not oldenough to make the decision yet.
That's okay.
And whenever you are, you can have yourown social media.
I don't want to share that.
Yeah, my thoughts about the, especiallyabout non -speaking kids is a lot of
(01:07:15):
parents will be like, they don't evenknow.
They won't.
And I'm like, no, if you don't have acommunication, you do not know that.
My child has such eagle eyes.
She can look at my phone upside down from,you know, eight feet away and know what I
am doing.
She, she.
than that, even if they didn't know, youdo.
(01:07:37):
Your responsibility is to protect them, toprotect their stories, to do what is best
for them and sharing their story withouttheir consent is not what's best for them.
And if they can't consent, then don'tfucking share it.
That's my opinion.
Yeah, no, I am of the same opinion.
And I think that you have to reallyconsider like, what's the value of that,
(01:08:08):
of sharing something personal about yourkid.
And I always think about my own mom.
Like if social media had been around,like, oh my God.
we would have been humiliated children.
Have you watched the America's FunniestHome Videos recently?
Like I started rewatching it with my kidsand it's still funny, but so much of it is
(01:08:31):
like shaming children and like, you know,it's just like all of a sudden you realize
how jacked up the 90s were.
I was like, oh my God, like, you know,it's like, people would just get hurt like
tragically and it's like, I got it onvideo.
And it's like, it's okay.
and go, oh my god, do they have to go tothe hospital after this?
It's like nobody cares as long as it'srecorded like we might win some money for
(01:08:54):
this and like i'm talking to my my oldestdaughter and she's like That wasn't funny.
That was really uncomfortable and I waslike I was like what humor was has changed
drastically in the last 15 years it wasokay to shame people to maim people to do
whatever to get a laugh and Everybody wasin on the joke.
(01:09:16):
Everybody was okay with it and now in like
This is the landscape has shifted so muchto where like if there is a person in the
center of this joke being hurt, it's allof a sudden we realize it's not funny and
it's just realizing how much of thecontent over the last 20, 30 years was
(01:09:36):
built based upon that.
Like I'm gonna go back, try to share anold movie with my kids.
I was like, this is so cringy becausethat's what it was based off of is like.
making laughs off of the backs of otherpeople and it was like oh man I got to
reassess sharing some of this stuff afterwe watch it first but that you know I
(01:09:59):
think that's a pretty good place to stopbut I want to make sure you give time to
share your like what you like you knowtalk about your consulting you know your
Instagram profile anything that you'd liketo share to the audience
Okay.
Yeah, I am the author of three books, twoof them are on self care and community
(01:10:20):
care for parents of children withdisabilities.
And both of those are called ThrivingTogether.
And I also have written a third bookcalled Meeting Myself in the Dark, which
is a shadow work journal with prompts fornerd virgin people.
And all those are available on on Amazon.
(01:10:42):
and you can find my social media profiles.
I am on Instagram and threads which is thecool Twitter and my handle is just dr.
Alondra Rogers and the name of myconsultancy is Divergent Autism Services
(01:11:03):
so you can also find my website where Iblog occasionally.
Yeah that's it!
And if you wanna, if you just wanna sendme all of that stuff in the email, I'll
post it all in the show description sopeople can find you.
This has been a great conversation.
I really truly enjoyed it.
To my audience, this has been Dr.
(01:11:25):
Alondra Rogers, and I hope that you gainedsomething from this conversation.
And I'm Coach Bruce, and if you arelooking to really find that inner voice we
were talking about earlier and learn totrust the impulse that you have.
Feel free to go to my website,AuthenticIdentityManagement .com, set up a
consultation at forward slashconsultation.
That is AuthenticIdentityManagement .comforward slash consultation.
(01:11:48):
And we can set up a free conversation andwe can give you a few strategies on how
you can start living your life on purposeand stop being, stop being at the whims of
what all is happening to you in your life.
This has been a great conversation.
Hang out with me for a minute and we willwrap this up.
Thank you everybody for listening.
(01:12:08):
I will see you again next week.
(01:12:30):
Mmm.
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