February 21, 2025 • 17 mins
My experience with working a job vs. following my calling and how this relates to autism. As a late diagnosed autistic, I now feel that my original job choice was actually a form of masking that interfered with my ability to engage in my true calling. In this episode, I talk a bit about how that happened and why I think it's so important for autistic people to embrace their special interests, honor their true selves and follow their unique calling
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Episode 5 Transcript:(If your podcast provider cuts off the transcript, you can read the full transcript by viewing this episode at AutisticPOV.com.)
0:06 Welcome to Autistic POV. My name is Barbara Graver and I started this podcast to share a bit of my journey as a late diagnosed autistic. Hi everybody, this is Barbara Graver. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Autistic POV. Today we're going to be talking about work versus calling. 0:31 In other words, a job versus what you were born to do. And the reason I wanted to do this, well, two reasons. The first was that when I did our last episode, the Autistic Reading Roundup, I talked about several books that I'd read, science fiction books, several memoirs. And these were all books written by autistic authors. 0:54 And all of these authors or their characters struggled to find what it is that they were meant to do. And I think that's a struggle that is pretty much universal, certainly not confined to the neurodiverse. But in all the memoirs I read, autistic people had a lot of trouble with work. They had trouble fitting in at work. 1:16 They had trouble finding the right place to work. They had trouble dealing with colleagues. And I certainly have experienced that too all my life. So I think work is a big issue for a lot of autistic people. Certainly has been for me. 1:30 And I think the key to all that is the kind of work that we choose to do. That's my theory. So a job, it's the even exchange. You give a certain amount of yourself and you get compensated. And what you're giving may not be who you are. It may not move you. 1:51 You may not feel passionate about it. You might not enjoy giving it, but you do it to get the compensation. And sometimes this is okay. This can be okay. I've had jobs where it was okay. But I think a calling, on the other hand, is something you would do even if nobody paid you. 2:08 You would still show up because you love it, because you're not just making an exchange. You're sharing something of yourself that you need to share, that you feel called to share, that you want to share, and that you love to share. And I think this is huge. Particularly for me, 2:27 my special interest was always had to do with, I guess you would say communication, which is a little ironic because I'm very bad at face-to-face communication. But I loved communicating through story. I would draw a series of pictures that told stories. I would stay awake all night pretending and constructing these elaborate worlds in my mind and characters. 2:54 And I would escape into that all the time. And I loved it. I would write the stories down. I would illustrate them. I would make little books. I just loved it. And I always had social problems. But when I was younger, 3:08 I was kind of able to fit in with the neighborhood kids because I grew up in the 60s and 70s. So That was when playing pretend was a big deal because we didn't have a lot of the stuff that kids have now. Like we had to create our own worlds. And I was always really good at that. 3:26 I was the idea person when we would. want to create a pretend scenario, I was the one who did it and did it well and had the ideas and kind of kept things going. And so that was an outlet for me. It was a way I could interact with other kids for a time. 3:45 IMark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
welcome to Artistic POV my name is
Barbara Graver and I started this
podcast to share a bit of my journey as
a late diagnosed
autistic hi everybody this is Barbara
Graver thank you for joining me on this
episode of autistic
POV today we're going to be talking
(00:28):
about work versus calling in other words
a job versus what you were born to
do and the reason I wanted to do this
well two reasons the first was that when
I did our last episode The autistic
reading Roundup I talked about several
books that I'd read science fiction
(00:49):
books several Memoirs and these were all
books certain by artistic authors and
all of these authors or their characters
struggled to find what it is that they
Were Meant to do and I think that's a
struggle that is is pretty much
Universal certainly not confined to the
neuro diverse but in all the Memoirs I
(01:10):
read autistic people had a lot of
trouble with work they had trouble
fitting in at work they had trouble
finding the right place to work they had
trouble dealing with colleagues and and
I certainly have experienced that too
all my life so I think work is a big
issue for a lot of autistic people
certainly has been for me and I think
(01:31):
the key to all that is the kind of work
that we choose to do that's my theory so
a job it's the even exchange you give a
certain amount of yourself and you get
compensated and what you're giving may
not be who you are it may not move you
you may not feel passionate about it you
(01:53):
might not enjoy giving it but you do it
to get the compensation and sometimes
this is okay this can be okay I've had
jobs where it was okay but I think a
calling on the other hand is something
you would do even if nobody paid you you
would still show up because you love it
because you're not just making an
exchange you're sharing something of
(02:16):
yourself that you need to share that you
feel called to share that you want to
share and that you love to share and I
think this is huge particularly for me
my special interest was always had to do
with I guess you would say communication
which is a little ironic because I'm
very bad at face- tof face
communication but I loved I love
(02:39):
communicating through story I would draw
series of pictures that told stories I
would stay awake on like pretending and
constructing these elaborate worlds in
my mind and characters and I would
Escape into that all the time and I
loved it it I would write the stories
(03:01):
down I would illustrate them I would
make little books I just loved it and I
always had social problems but when I
was younger I was kind of able to fit in
with the neighborhood kids because I
grew up in the 60s and 70s so that was
when playing pretend was a big deal
because we didn't have a lot of the
stuff that kids have now like we had to
create our own worlds and I was always
(03:25):
really good at that I was the idea
person when we would want to create a
pretend
scenario I was the one who who did it
and did it well and had the ideas and
kind of kept things going and so that
was an outlet for me it was a way I
could interact with other kids for a
time I mean obviously as I got older
(03:47):
that no longer worked but the point is
story was always huge to me I love to
read I love to watch TV I Lov media I
Lov to draw I was very creative and it
all kind of revolved around the idea of
story but as I got older I began to look
at more and more look at other people
(04:09):
and how other people were living and how
other people were acting and as I
experienced more and more social
setbacks and social
troubles I decided to model myself more
and more after other people in grade
school I even I changed my handwriting I
went from WR I have still have two
complete completely different kinds of
(04:30):
handwriting because there was a girl who
was very popular and I would actually
copied her handwriting I started to
write like her because I wanted to be
like her and I fell into this m this
it's my dog shaking her collar I I began
to mask I began to want to behave like
other people because that was safer than
(04:52):
behaving like me because I didn't want
to Target on my back I don't want to be
different even if it meant not being
creative even if it meant not doing the
things I loved I wanted to be like other
people I wanted to blend in so I worked
really really hard at that all through
high school I worked super hard at it in
college and it was stressful and and
I'll talk more about masking and the
(05:14):
toll it took on me maybe in another
episode but I think picking a career
became part of the facade for me I
wanted to do something that was normal
quote and acceptable and I wanted to be
just like everybody else and it's kind
of sad when you think about it that you
have people who maybe could be an author
(05:36):
or playwright or artist and they don't
want to do any of that stuff because
they don't want to be outlier they want
to be like everybody else and that was
where I was at so I went away to school
the first time I majored in experimental
psychology and I did have an interest in
experimental psychology and I still do
but College was not for me I found
(05:57):
College very difficult I left school I
came back a few years later and at that
point I had a child and I wanted to be
practical but more than that I wanted to
be ordinary that was my goal and it's so
sad to think now that there are a lot of
us who could be extraordinary and still
what what a lot of people still want
(06:19):
most is to be just average and it's sad
but average does not put a put a Target
on your back an exceptional does and I
want to be average and I'm not not
saying anything against the career I
chose because I've known people who when
I decide to be a nurse and I've known
(06:40):
people who have gone into nursing who
are exemplary nurses they're
extraordinary nurses they're so good at
it and they're so gifted at caring for
people and they're so intelligent and
they do a great job and and I'm not
putting that down but I didn't choose
nursing for those reasons I chose
nursing because it was what everybody
else was doing doing and I want to be
(07:01):
like everybody else so even
though I didn't have a great aptitude
for science I mean I could get through
science but my real aptitude was for
English when I took my SATs my English
score was practically double what my
math scores were and part of that was
(07:23):
because I didn't go to school but also
part of it was because that was my
natural aptitude was always for English
I always tested really really high on
things like that and that was my special
interest and yet I chose to major in
nursing because I wanted to be just an
average girl with an average family
(07:46):
and I got my nursing license and I went
to work and I raised a family and I
tried to do things the way other people
did things and and it just imploded it
definitely imploded but I think what
really is the main way that it was
damaging for me was that I was so
(08:10):
sensitive and being in the hospital and
being
around uh being around people who were
being brutalized by the modern medicine
was extraordinarily traumatic for me I
had a lot of trouble coping with it and
I did it but I just was hanging on like
by the skin of my teeth the whole time
and it was was just really awful for me
(08:33):
it was really hard and sometimes I think
I did a good job and sometimes I did a
mediocre job but it was not where my
giftsslide and I think that's true of a lot
of people I think a lot of us we want
identity a specific identity and we want
to keep our heads down and so we pick
something safe and it there's no true
(08:56):
safety in that I don't think there's any
true safety in that I think I think
ultimately that situation can become at
least emotionally unsafe for a lot of
people and that's that's what happened
to me and when things other stresses in
my life began to pile up I got to the
point where I couldn't do it anymore and
I I talked a little bit about this in
the last podcast too but my point is
(09:20):
this was a form of masking for me to be
a nurse was a mask I actually envisioned
myself not as somebody helping people or
making a difference but as as a typical
girl in a white uniform fitting in that
was that was where I wanted to be and
that's what I did until I couldn't until
I couldn't do it
(09:41):
anymore and it was always hard for me uh
I never really fit in with the other
nurses and I never really felt I always
felt like I was struggling just to just
to do a good job and I was somewhat
successful I got promoted everywhere I
(10:02):
worked I was in administration and super
supervisory positions and I wrote
policies and I I could was always good
at solving problems so people like that
administrators like the person who sees
the problem and writes the policy they
like that person and so I always was
getting promoted and and that was fine
that was fine but I never really fit in
(10:24):
I was never happy I was very stressed I
was just always always terrified of
making a mistake I would wake up in the
middle of the night worrying and I did
like people I like the patience I likeed
helping people I did like that but it
just wasn't who I was and I think that
is an issue I think that's something
(10:45):
everybody's susceptible to certainly
everybody everybody has a work identity
and a home identity everybody likes the
idea of having a certain Persona I mean
there are people who are doctors or
lawyers or bartenders that they love
that persona like it makes them happy
and there's nothing wrong with that but
I think that if you're autistic you have
(11:08):
to be very careful about what you ask
yourself to do and what you expose
yourself too and and I never really was
when I was in school I would get up in
the morning to go to clinical and I
would just feel like I did when I was in
grade school I would feel so stressed
and like sick and shaky and
(11:29):
depressed and everything would seem so
dark and awful and I just I didn't I
wasn't diagnosed and I thought everybody
feels like this everybody feels like
this and I'm the baby that can't push
myself through this so I was at a big
disadvantage in a lot of ways but I pick
picked the wrong thing and I kind of
(11:51):
paid for it because I spent a lot of
years I spent about 13 years I guess in
nursing and that was kind of all for
nothing because I'm not doing that now
and I'm not going back to it and so my
education and a lot of my work
experience was just kind of wasted and
Not only was it wasted but it took up
time that I could have spent doing what
(12:12):
I really wanted to do what I really love
and what I'm doing now which is
writing and that the time I spent doing
the wrong thing the job took away from
the important thing the calling and I
I'm lucky I feel I'm lucky to have
realized that I feel I'm lucky to now at
this point in my life be writing
(12:34):
full-time and able to do that and and
I'm really grateful for that but I do
think that masking had a lot to do with
why I kind of went wrong and writing and
fulltime even though it's my calling is
not 100% Problem free there are issues I
(12:55):
think related to autism that have to do
even with pursuing you're calling and
and I might talk a little bit more about
that in the next
episode but I I do I'm writing fiction
fulltime now I'm blogging I'm doing the
podcast I'm thinking of writing Memoir
I'm writing writing writing I love to
write I could write 16 hours a day
(13:19):
probably I try not to but I
could
and that's pretty much what I wanted to
say about uh m asking and working and
the calling I think it's really
important for anyone who is autistic to
try to find work that is as closely
(13:41):
aligned to their calling as
possible obviously getting a job as a
artist or a novelist is not really a
thing and it's hard to do and it's
competitive and there's a lot of
challenges inherent in that
but there are a lot of careers that are
adjacent that can be very fulfilling to
(14:05):
people and I think it depends what your
love is your special interest might be
highly highly practical if you have a
very practical special interest if your
special interest is has to do with
technology in any form you're probably a
little bit ahead of the curb as far as
working if your special interest tends
to be more creative you're going to have
(14:27):
to be more creative to find that thing
that you could either do part-time or
that thing that you could do full-time
that might be adjacent but I do think
it's possible and I I think the main
point of it all is not finding the right
job I think the main point of it is
honoring who you really are and I think
(14:49):
if I had to say one thing that really
tripped me up it was not honoring who I
was and that's what masking is and
that's why masking is so so
detrimental it's just such a soul
crushing terrible thing to
mask
and I just wanted to share a little bit
(15:10):
of my
experience and in hopes that this would
kind of resonate with someone
else and that if you have a special
interest if you're especially if you're
a younger person like going into the
workforce for the first time look at
your aptitudes and look at your special
interest and look at what makes you
happy and try to find something if you
(15:33):
can that's close to that like try as
hard as you
can and I know for me it was very
important for me to have a secure job
and to take care of my child and to be a
productive person but being yourself is
really that is why you're here I think
and to do what brings you Joy and brings
(15:55):
other people Joy hopefully and if you're
like he pays the bills but that to me if
I had it to all do over that would be
the last thing on my list I have to say
that honestly so as far as my writing um
I do have issues around writing that are
autism related I have issues with
(16:17):
plotting I have issues with multiple
issues with storytelling that makes it
difficult for me and I'm going to talk
about some of that a little bit more in
the next episode but this is is it for
today kind of all over the place I hope
it was
helpful and uh I will see you next time
and until then this is Barbara Graver of
(16:41):
autistic POV and thank you very much for
listening
welcome to Artistic POV my name is
Barbara Graver and I started this
podcast to share a bit of my journey as
a late diagnosed
autistic hi everybody this is Barbara
Graver thank you for joining me on this
episode of autistic
POV today we're going to be talking
(00:28):
about work versus calling in other words
a job versus what you were born to
do and the reason I wanted to do this
well two reasons the first was that when
I did our last episode The autistic
reading Roundup I talked about several
books that I'd read science fiction
(00:49):
books several Memoirs and these were all
books certain by artistic authors and
all of these authors or their characters
struggled to find what it is that they
Were Meant to do and I think that's a
struggle that is is pretty much
Universal certainly not confined to the
neuro diverse but in all the Memoirs I
(01:10):
read autistic people had a lot of
trouble with work they had trouble
fitting in at work they had trouble
finding the right place to work they had
trouble dealing with colleagues and and
I certainly have experienced that too
all my life so I think work is a big
issue for a lot of autistic people
certainly has been for me and I think
(01:31):
the key to all that is the kind of work
that we choose to do that's my theory so
a job it's the even exchange you give a
certain amount of yourself and you get
compensated and what you're giving may
not be who you are it may not move you
you may not feel passionate about it you
(01:53):
might not enjoy giving it but you do it
to get the compensation and sometimes
this is okay this can be okay I've had
jobs where it was okay but I think a
calling on the other hand is something
you would do even if nobody paid you you
would still show up because you love it
because you're not just making an
exchange you're sharing something of
(02:16):
yourself that you need to share that you
feel called to share that you want to
share and that you love to share and I
think this is huge particularly for me
my special interest was always had to do
with I guess you would say communication
which is a little ironic because I'm
very bad at face- tof face
communication but I loved I love
(02:39):
communicating through story I would draw
series of pictures that told stories I
would stay awake on like pretending and
constructing these elaborate worlds in
my mind and characters and I would
Escape into that all the time and I
loved it it I would write the stories
(03:01):
down I would illustrate them I would
make little books I just loved it and I
always had social problems but when I
was younger I was kind of able to fit in
with the neighborhood kids because I
grew up in the 60s and 70s so that was
when playing pretend was a big deal
because we didn't have a lot of the
stuff that kids have now like we had to
create our own worlds and I was always
(03:25):
really good at that I was the idea
person when we would want to create a
pretend
scenario I was the one who who did it
and did it well and had the ideas and
kind of kept things going and so that
was an outlet for me it was a way I
could interact with other kids for a
time I mean obviously as I got older
(03:47):
that no longer worked but the point is
story was always huge to me I love to
read I love to watch TV I Lov media I
Lov to draw I was very creative and it
all kind of revolved around the idea of
story but as I got older I began to look
at more and more look at other people
(04:09):
and how other people were living and how
other people were acting and as I
experienced more and more social
setbacks and social
troubles I decided to model myself more
and more after other people in grade
school I even I changed my handwriting I
went from WR I have still have two
complete completely different kinds of
(04:30):
handwriting because there was a girl who
was very popular and I would actually
copied her handwriting I started to
write like her because I wanted to be
like her and I fell into this m this
it's my dog shaking her collar I I began
to mask I began to want to behave like
other people because that was safer than
(04:52):
behaving like me because I didn't want
to Target on my back I don't want to be
different even if it meant not being
creative even if it meant not doing the
things I loved I wanted to be like other
people I wanted to blend in so I worked
really really hard at that all through
high school I worked super hard at it in
college and it was stressful and and
I'll talk more about masking and the
(05:14):
toll it took on me maybe in another
episode but I think picking a career
became part of the facade for me I
wanted to do something that was normal
quote and acceptable and I wanted to be
just like everybody else and it's kind
of sad when you think about it that you
have people who maybe could be an author
(05:36):
or playwright or artist and they don't
want to do any of that stuff because
they don't want to be outlier they want
to be like everybody else and that was
where I was at so I went away to school
the first time I majored in experimental
psychology and I did have an interest in
experimental psychology and I still do
but College was not for me I found
(05:57):
College very difficult I left school I
came back a few years later and at that
point I had a child and I wanted to be
practical but more than that I wanted to
be ordinary that was my goal and it's so
sad to think now that there are a lot of
us who could be extraordinary and still
what what a lot of people still want
(06:19):
most is to be just average and it's sad
but average does not put a put a Target
on your back an exceptional does and I
want to be average and I'm not not
saying anything against the career I
chose because I've known people who when
I decide to be a nurse and I've known
(06:40):
people who have gone into nursing who
are exemplary nurses they're
extraordinary nurses they're so good at
it and they're so gifted at caring for
people and they're so intelligent and
they do a great job and and I'm not
putting that down but I didn't choose
nursing for those reasons I chose
nursing because it was what everybody
else was doing doing and I want to be
(07:01):
like everybody else so even
though I didn't have a great aptitude
for science I mean I could get through
science but my real aptitude was for
English when I took my SATs my English
score was practically double what my
math scores were and part of that was
(07:23):
because I didn't go to school but also
part of it was because that was my
natural aptitude was always for English
I always tested really really high on
things like that and that was my special
interest and yet I chose to major in
nursing because I wanted to be just an
average girl with an average family
(07:46):
and I got my nursing license and I went
to work and I raised a family and I
tried to do things the way other people
did things and and it just imploded it
definitely imploded but I think what
really is the main way that it was
damaging for me was that I was so
(08:10):
sensitive and being in the hospital and
being
around uh being around people who were
being brutalized by the modern medicine
was extraordinarily traumatic for me I
had a lot of trouble coping with it and
I did it but I just was hanging on like
by the skin of my teeth the whole time
and it was was just really awful for me
(08:33):
it was really hard and sometimes I think
I did a good job and sometimes I did a
mediocre job but it was not where my
giftsslide and I think that's true of a lot
of people I think a lot of us we want
identity a specific identity and we want
to keep our heads down and so we pick
something safe and it there's no true
(08:56):
safety in that I don't think there's any
true safety in that I think I think
ultimately that situation can become at
least emotionally unsafe for a lot of
people and that's that's what happened
to me and when things other stresses in
my life began to pile up I got to the
point where I couldn't do it anymore and
I I talked a little bit about this in
the last podcast too but my point is
(09:20):
this was a form of masking for me to be
a nurse was a mask I actually envisioned
myself not as somebody helping people or
making a difference but as as a typical
girl in a white uniform fitting in that
was that was where I wanted to be and
that's what I did until I couldn't until
I couldn't do it
(09:41):
anymore and it was always hard for me uh
I never really fit in with the other
nurses and I never really felt I always
felt like I was struggling just to just
to do a good job and I was somewhat
successful I got promoted everywhere I
(10:02):
worked I was in administration and super
supervisory positions and I wrote
policies and I I could was always good
at solving problems so people like that
administrators like the person who sees
the problem and writes the policy they
like that person and so I always was
getting promoted and and that was fine
that was fine but I never really fit in
(10:24):
I was never happy I was very stressed I
was just always always terrified of
making a mistake I would wake up in the
middle of the night worrying and I did
like people I like the patience I likeed
helping people I did like that but it
just wasn't who I was and I think that
is an issue I think that's something
(10:45):
everybody's susceptible to certainly
everybody everybody has a work identity
and a home identity everybody likes the
idea of having a certain Persona I mean
there are people who are doctors or
lawyers or bartenders that they love
that persona like it makes them happy
and there's nothing wrong with that but
I think that if you're autistic you have
(11:08):
to be very careful about what you ask
yourself to do and what you expose
yourself too and and I never really was
when I was in school I would get up in
the morning to go to clinical and I
would just feel like I did when I was in
grade school I would feel so stressed
and like sick and shaky and
(11:29):
depressed and everything would seem so
dark and awful and I just I didn't I
wasn't diagnosed and I thought everybody
feels like this everybody feels like
this and I'm the baby that can't push
myself through this so I was at a big
disadvantage in a lot of ways but I pick
picked the wrong thing and I kind of
(11:51):
paid for it because I spent a lot of
years I spent about 13 years I guess in
nursing and that was kind of all for
nothing because I'm not doing that now
and I'm not going back to it and so my
education and a lot of my work
experience was just kind of wasted and
Not only was it wasted but it took up
time that I could have spent doing what
(12:12):
I really wanted to do what I really love
and what I'm doing now which is
writing and that the time I spent doing
the wrong thing the job took away from
the important thing the calling and I
I'm lucky I feel I'm lucky to have
realized that I feel I'm lucky to now at
this point in my life be writing
(12:34):
full-time and able to do that and and
I'm really grateful for that but I do
think that masking had a lot to do with
why I kind of went wrong and writing and
fulltime even though it's my calling is
not 100% Problem free there are issues I
(12:55):
think related to autism that have to do
even with pursuing you're calling and
and I might talk a little bit more about
that in the next
episode but I I do I'm writing fiction
fulltime now I'm blogging I'm doing the
podcast I'm thinking of writing Memoir
I'm writing writing writing I love to
write I could write 16 hours a day
(13:19):
probably I try not to but I
could
and that's pretty much what I wanted to
say about uh m asking and working and
the calling I think it's really
important for anyone who is autistic to
try to find work that is as closely
(13:41):
aligned to their calling as
possible obviously getting a job as a
artist or a novelist is not really a
thing and it's hard to do and it's
competitive and there's a lot of
challenges inherent in that
but there are a lot of careers that are
adjacent that can be very fulfilling to
(14:05):
people and I think it depends what your
love is your special interest might be
highly highly practical if you have a
very practical special interest if your
special interest is has to do with
technology in any form you're probably a
little bit ahead of the curb as far as
working if your special interest tends
to be more creative you're going to have
(14:27):
to be more creative to find that thing
that you could either do part-time or
that thing that you could do full-time
that might be adjacent but I do think
it's possible and I I think the main
point of it all is not finding the right
job I think the main point of it is
honoring who you really are and I think
(14:49):
if I had to say one thing that really
tripped me up it was not honoring who I
was and that's what masking is and
that's why masking is so so
detrimental it's just such a soul
crushing terrible thing to
mask
and I just wanted to share a little bit
(15:10):
of my
experience and in hopes that this would
kind of resonate with someone
else and that if you have a special
interest if you're especially if you're
a younger person like going into the
workforce for the first time look at
your aptitudes and look at your special
interest and look at what makes you
happy and try to find something if you
(15:33):
can that's close to that like try as
hard as you
can and I know for me it was very
important for me to have a secure job
and to take care of my child and to be a
productive person but being yourself is
really that is why you're here I think
and to do what brings you Joy and brings
(15:55):
other people Joy hopefully and if you're
like he pays the bills but that to me if
I had it to all do over that would be
the last thing on my list I have to say
that honestly so as far as my writing um
I do have issues around writing that are
autism related I have issues with
(16:17):
plotting I have issues with multiple
issues with storytelling that makes it
difficult for me and I'm going to talk
about some of that a little bit more in
the next episode but this is is it for
today kind of all over the place I hope
it was
helpful and uh I will see you next time
and until then this is Barbara Graver of
(16:41):
autistic POV and thank you very much for
listening
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