444pm Drop in Sundays Adult Autism Conversation Open to All EP29

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
We speak our words, we listen,we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:19):
Hi there.
Every Sunday a group of autisticpeople get together and drop in.
It's an informal group.
Um, but some of the things thatpeople say deserve a bigger audience,
so they give us permission for usto put them in a an edited reel.
And that's what we are here for today'sedited reel of the conversations

(00:42):
that we have about our own autism.
Cheers, enjoy.
Okay, so that's us recording.
How's it going with you?

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: Yeah, it's not bad. (00:53):
undefined
It's, um, I've been really crab ittoday, but I had a good walk and
went to the park and kicked the ballfor the dog and it kinda helped.

Okay.
What does the word crab it mean?

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com (01:07):
Crab.
It's got a she for, Ithink, grumpy, irritable.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: What a beautiful word. (01:14):
undefined
Crab.
It's

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: so, it's so good. (01:17):
undefined
Eh, crab.
It's like, it makes methink of crab apples.
You know that right.
Sour feeling?

Mm-hmm.
The, the English alternative iscrabby and I think that's the same.
It's from the, the soer apples.
Hi Lucy.
How are we doing?

Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked (01:36):
Sorry, I was just reaching over for my coffee.
I'm fine.
Hello everybody.
Hello, Nicola.

Hello.
Nice

cup of coffee.

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: Talking about the word krabbe (01:44):
undefined
or crabby to describe your mood.
Not your mood, but

my mood.
You wouldn't be wrongactually with that, but yeah.
Yeah.
I've heard krabby before andI've heard crabby before.
Definitely crabby.
That's an English one though, isn't it?

So what's making us all crabby though?

Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked: Rie energy Mine's. (02:02):
undefined
More specific because there's justa lot going on and, uh, I'm, I'm
getting a little anxious aboutstuff, but it is a long story.
I'm just getting fed up with peoplerelying on me to do things that
they should be doing themselves whenI'm not meant to be doing it in the
first place, if you see what I mean.

That feels as though that's really part
of the autistic experience to me.

I didn't realize it was, but I do now.
There it's, it's, it, can youthis like last minute sort of, oh,
help we, nobody's done any work.
You are the autistic one.
Write a piece about this,write a piece about that.
Can you talk about misdiagnosis please?
Can you talk about every, you know,everything is, is being sort of
batted my way and I'm, I'm handlingit all because I can handle it all.

(02:53):
But it's more a case of, hang on a second.
I was only meant to belooking over your shoulder.
Right.
And now.
I'm actually on the stageright in the center.
Everything's attributed to me.
I do hope they buy mea present for my work.

Well, personally, I wouldn't hold out too much hope on that,
but let me say, you are doingsomething for the rest of us anyway.
So thank you for advocating out therewith the people that you are dealing
with who have very little knowledge.

(03:27):
And tolerating all of thatmisunderstanding that they have.
'cause that's a tough gig.

It is.
And I, I do it with, with a kindof a, my heart is in it because
my heart needs to be in it.
And when I'm, when I walk awayand I think, well, at least I've
explained that away this, thistime and this way, this time.
Um, then I, I, I, it gives you alittle buzz, I suppose, but it was,
it's just the very last minute.

(03:53):
Thing at the moment is that there's anawful lot of people doing nothing, and
the person who's volunteering is doingit all because they just don't, they,
they seem to know nothing, but I'm doingit and I'm, I'm doing it and I'm getting
it done, and once this is all over, I'mnot really expecting to buy me a present.
I'd like him them to, but they won't.

(04:14):
But I wouldn't, I'll walk away fromhere knowing that this is one gig that
I really, you know, what's the word?

I feel like you've got like a more valid
reason to be crossed than me.
Like today, I was just crab it becauseI'd collected some stuff from a tree like
the, like a branch and some leaves andsome like cones and I was really enjoying,
like rearranging them and I was thinkingabout all different things I could do,
maybe sketch them, stuff like that.
And because I was so fascinatedwith them, my dog, my puppy got fat.

(04:47):
Well, she's like, come up one.
Fascinated with it as well.
And she had made it her missionto destroy both of the cones.
And it was like she was really waitingto be sneaky when I was out the room
and I just felt so mad about it.
My daughter took her a walkfrom me and I was like, ah,
trying to calm back down again.
But I was really, I was upset aboutit and it's not even her fault.

(05:09):
She's just doing what dogs do.

Yeah, she's just doing what dogs do, like
just having yet another, it's anotherchild, isn't it, basically that you,
you just have to live with the messthat they make behind themselves and
sort of forgive them for it, even ifit's a little bit inconvenient to you.

Yeah.
Like a toddler, a ha toddler.

Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked: Now there's an image. (05:29):
undefined

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I, I, I did get an image. (05:32):
undefined
Then I got this, uh, I, I got thislittle Neanderthal baby with hair coming
dripping down off it to the floor.
This hairy toddler.
Yeah,

I think that's how my dog sees herself.
That's har self-image.
That's what you're gonnasee in your dreams tonight.

Raymond-AutisticRadio.com (05:54):
I dunno, how far into the TV show is that?
There's a hairy child in that.

Yeah, there is.
I think I'm, I've like, I thinkI'm on episode six of series two
at the moment, and yes, it, theshow's gone all over the place.
I put, like, when I recommendedit to my friend, I did say,
I'm really sorry about the cow.

I don't think I know this series.
Actually, I'm not sureof which you're speaking.
Uh, I'm watching adolescents atthe moment on Netflix, which is.
Oh yeah.
A lot.
But really clever.

Raymond-AutisticRadio.com: It's that the chain. (06:32):
undefined
Steven, Steven, I keep what to say?
Steven Moffitt, but what's his name?
Steven Graham.

Yeah.
That's him.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's one shot.
It's a one shot film, so it never breaksa scene and goes into another one.
You're following this camera fluidly.
Around this scene and they interchangecharacters, interchange situations,
but they do it all in one shot andit is incredibly done and really
powerful and just, you can't getyour head around it, but eventually

(07:02):
you forget it's there 'cause it'sso good, you forget it's happening.
But it's, it's it, everythingis, you are doing it all in real
time and it never sort of justbreaks from one scene to another.
Everything is, recommend it,but it's very heavy indeed.

I think kind of avoiding this one at the
moment because, as you say, heavy.
I had a conversation with a friendof mine's son, a neurodivergent,
autistic young man, and it, it wasa little bit about the influence

(07:40):
line of Tate and I felt as though.
There was a possibility that as anautistic guy, he was being pulled
into these kind of misogynisticideas a little bit more than I
was comfortable with, and I didn'treally know what to do about that.

Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked: I'm kind of going with it. (08:00):
undefined
I, I am not that far into it yet, soI've got an overview of what's going
on, but I'm yet to have the sort of,the, the really, we have to wade in
waist deep and really confront stuff,but just at the moment it is more about.
This guttural, awful feeling fromthe parents that something's happened

(08:21):
that they would never have thoughtof their child, ever, and they've
had no idea about it, and they'vebeen completely shut out from this.
So just those reactions alone, it's, it,it's you, you all the way through, you're
sort of holding your breath and just so.
As much as I know it's gonna be veryeffective and a little bit grim.

(08:43):
It's, it's telling a story.
And maybe, you know, and maybe this isone that needs to be told, I, I'm just
gonna keep going and see how we go.
At the moment.
I'm very impressed.

It feels to me that young autistic men,
adolescent autistic men are morelikely to be excluded from their.
From social groups, they'remore likely to be isolated.
They're more likely to be spendingtime entirely on their own within
a kind of one way of thinking.

(09:15):
You know, influences from algorithms,constantly bringing them within one world.
And it's something that thisradicalization of autistic people seems
to be an issue that we all skirt around.
I know there are some people that are.
The autistic young male seemsmuch more vulnerable to this.

(09:39):
At the same time as when I meetsomeone, autistic, young males, they
are the most gentle kind of people.
It it's very polarizing.

It also brings you into, into a world that we
wouldn't have been able to imagine reallybecause of the we, we haven't had this
access to this information overload.
That's everywhere now, and thereare terms that are being used.
Like, for instance, incel and thingslike that, and this, this, this
radicalization, like you say, and atone point this just wasn't available.

(10:14):
There was no cross pollination or likeReddit groups and that sort of thing.
We did everything from what wesaw heard during our own day.
So.
Maybe that's a lot to do with it.
Just the, the, the amount of communicationthat's going on now and the amount of
information and, uh, it, it, it is,it's very difficult to even imagine what

(10:34):
it would be like to be a teenager now.
And it's a little frightening really.

It feels really important to have
good, like community spaces.
I think football can offer likekids, some kids a great deal, but
there's not an awful lot of other.
Species like that, and we end up withquite a lot of disconnected young people.
I was, um, I ended up getting involvedin a high control religion when I

(11:03):
was about 19, and I, I'd imagine it'skind of similar kind of reasonings
that autistic young men would bevulnerable to kinda like far right
ideologies really, and to kind of, uh,belong in that can be so very absent.

When you say high control religion, is
that an alternative word for cult?

It's a cult.
Yeah, it's a cult.
I think it's just like, you know, likethe euphemism you say like for a cult.

When I was younger, possibly in my late teens,
early twenties, going to festivalsand being in alternative spaces, even
being on the streets, there used to bea lot of sans and various different.
Pseudo Buddhist religions and they werecults, and I feel as though they really

(11:58):
targeted me because I somehow was givingout a vulnerability as an autistic person.
I remember being in London oncehitchhiking through, and one of the
guys that gave me the last lift ended uptaking me to a Buddhist center and it.

(12:20):
Luckily I had a, a, an alarm bell goingoff in my head saying, whoa, and I
didn't spend too much time there, butit does seem as though they target us.

I got pulled in by like the, like the questions
and the kind of conversations.
It was like getting to talkabout spirituality in ways
that I just didn't really.
Find in everyday life and stuff as well.
So I do think that there's thatand just that kinda curiosity
can be all lure as well.

(12:53):
But yeah, they quite quicklyhoned in on my vulnerabilities.
Um, and there was a lot of love bombing.
Um, leaving was hard.
The love bombing kicked in stronglyuntil the shunning like kicked in.
Um.
And it is, it's taken, it took mea lot of time to recover from it

(13:14):
and even kind of as I did, I wasstarting to kinda get memories
back of like who I was before that.
And it was quite nice to kind of, yeah,like see it for what it was and not have
it ruin other things for me as much.
But yeah, like I do think thatthere's a lot of predatory groups out

there.
There was an awful lot when, when Iwas, when I was younger and I used to
live in London when I was a teenager.
There was quite a lot of these, there.
There were people that would approachyou on the street and it would be
one of these slow pseudo, sort ofBuddhism related cults, and they,
they really did try to pull you in.
Now, I'm not, I. I'm, I'm what I wouldprobably call an atheist, and I did, I

(13:57):
have no sense of spirituality at all.
I just don't have it.
So I rejected it by quite quickly.
But they do, they, they sort of bring youin, you know, why don't you come this way?
Why don't you come to this place?
We'll give you food and we'll look afteryou and, and there's this, it, it's a.
They, they were trying to drawyou into something and I always
felt very uncomfortable with it.
Always, you know?

(14:17):
No, no, no, no, no.
But yeah, I've, I've, there's beenseveral occasions like that, but it's just
that I just don't have that part of me.
I can't, I don't have any spiritualquestions at all, so I guess
I, I had like an inbuilt wallthat they couldn't get over.

Yeah.
I'd had an, a lot of odd stuff, eh.
Put in my head as a child, which made likemagical thinking, very natural for me.
So what, it was interesting that whathelped me leave was when I, I was studying
at the same time I was at uni and I waslearning about sociology and philosophy

(14:54):
and learning about how jar, what theeffect of jargon on our heads, on our
minds and on like thought stopping.
Our own free thinking if we, there's justlike these jargon terms that come in.
And then I started spotting that andthe way that the group was talking and
it was that pattern that just startedto kinda break the spell for me.
And all the misogyny and thingstoo just became like, like

(15:19):
it, just like the spell broke.
I could see it all.
Um, and it, because I think becauseit sort of predated on my sort
of spiritual connection like thatI kind of had always kinda had.
I did feel really like at the time,like I had been like damned and I
was like leaving like my connectionwith my higher power, whatever.

(15:40):
But what I found with, when I wastraveling afterwards like that, I
went off to New Zealand afterwardsand I found like that I still had that
connection and it helped me to, yeah,it just helped me to sort of see.
For what it was, but it was, it wasweird and it was really weird to kind
of like recover from and like it kind ofadded another layer of stigma onto like

(16:07):
some of the like obviously invisible tome at the time, but ableism and stuff
that I was experiencing and I had justhad this damaged feeling about me.
So yeah, like.
I would say love your, loveyour autistic young people.
'cause otherwise, like the vulnerabilityto love bombing is serious.

I remember, I think it was during my first trip to
New Zealand, being outside a supermarketand having a, one of the cult leaders
collecting money and they had a mini bus,which was actually next to our mini bus.
Um, and because I was an adult and.
I'd experienced this stuff before I saidthe word cult very clearly, very early

(16:53):
on when they tried to have a conversationwith me and the guy went absolutely
spare his reaction to that word cult.
And then me taunting him in the endwith that word cult and speaking
out very loudly around to the peoplehe had managed to collect in his

(17:16):
minibus, saying the word cult.
It almost ended up in a, in afist fight in the, in the car park
when he was aggressively pushingat me because I said word cult.
So I think that word cult is a very.
Powerful word to challenge thesepeople on when they, when they come

(17:40):
to try and involve you in things

like the Rumpelstiltskin story.

I don't know that story, but I'm gonna read the text out.
Do you think that magical thinking is putinto us, or are we maybe born with it and
there's a reply that says both For me?
I think so.
Yeah.
I think it's a lot of variation.
What is the rub?
Pull stilting story?

It's a fairy tale about, uh, it was like a little
Fay kind of man who had, who had, like,he had somebody caught in a riddle
and if they didn't guess his name inthree tries, I think he was gonna keep
their firstborn or something like that.
And they managed to getthe name Rumpelstiltskin.

(18:25):
And that's what made himlose all of his power.
And it just made me think oflike what you were saying about.
Naming the cult, and it was, andits, it could have taken all the,
the, the sort of glamor out of it.

It's one of those brothers grim stories
that's, that we learn as kids.
They taught it at school to us,or we read it or, and it is like
that, you know, it's, it's literallysomebody being trapped in a room.
I think they, they promise thatthey can spin gold or something.
They, like, they, they say thatthis is what's gonna happen if you
Yeah, if you, you stay with me.

(18:58):
And then eventually I think he gives hera couple of days to name him or something
and then, yeah, I remember that very well.
'cause it, I, I found it a little bit.
Jarring because I was, I readit when I was quite young.

Wasn't there A Doctor who episode, you know
the recent stuff where he went backand met Shakespeare and there was this
whole thing about the power of wordsand so saying the true name revealed
something, or someone just getting theseflashbacks to moments in literature
that have used a similar theme.

(19:30):
Even Superman had an enemy who.
If you said it namebackwards, it disappeared.

Well, you know,
it's a drop in of some autisticpeople talking about anything
they like to do with autism, andwe're, we're talking about inso
in cells, fascist ideas and cults.
It's, it's, it's a tough.

(19:57):
Uh, does everybody feelsafe away from this now?
Does in your own lives, do you feel asthough you've got the, the wherewithal
to keep outta it, keep away from it?
How, how do we, you know, how do we passthat down to the younger generation?

Yeah, very much like I, I definitely
learned my lessons when I did do,when these things happen, but.
There's a bit of me, it's like I'mkind of glad that I've had some
of the life experience I've had.
'cause it was really, really interesting.
There was like some things that,there's some stuff that was just
added so much perspective and addeda lot of understanding to my life.

(20:38):
But like now, yeah, I don't,I feel like I can see,
I feel like I can see through that stuffand I've got strong boundaries and I'm
also really not very agreeable, so I'mnot very like, so I quite quickly almost.
The people who would betrying to manipulate me now.

(20:58):
Um, and I, I don't seek, I don'tseek outside myself anymore.
I'm quite content, like on my own, so Idon't have the same vulnerabilities and
I do think I've learned stuff to pass on.

I agree with what Nicholas said about him being on
your own, but I've chosen that and I'veended up in quite a, a personal kinda.
Solitude.
Whereas Nicola's got family andI reflect on these things when I
make my own judgments or, you know,survey my situation, go, eh, my

(21:34):
situation is in everyone's situation.
You know?
And I have to bear that in mind,uh, when I pronounce on anything.
So I just sort reflect on that in thecomparison between people who may be.
Living at a remove from it all.
To get back to Josie's original question,and I missed the first five minutes,

(21:55):
so was that kind of what was beingdiscussed, that there was this nice
little boat to wrap up all these topicsup in to do the in sales fascism and
raising the young, or is that somethingyou've just done in the last 10 minutes?
Jules, to sort of wrap it up,because this is a huge conversation
and it's one of these ones thatI kind, you know, sit out on.

(22:19):
Because there's just too much to,well, for me, there's too much.
I go off on too many tangents with it.
It's very hard to focus.
But we'd reflect on the thing thatthere is a history in America that is
currently culminating in the governmentitself, which relates to all that,
a kinda exploitation online youth.

(22:42):
Their enemies in the Middle Eastas being the people who would
groom people for terrorism.
But there's a kinda homegrown aspectin that as well in their culture.
So they developed an internetand developed a culture
of usage of that internet.
And then you get young males and you get.
Young females who wereabused by those young males.

(23:03):
And this gives a rise to the incel thing.
And there's a whole history here,which is a part of all the players, the
shadowy players behind the government.
So I just thought I'd throwthat in and then I'll sit back
and have an NAR cup of tea.

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: I see that too, Raymond. (23:17):
undefined
I really do.

Raymond-AutisticRadio.com: I see that too, Raymond. (23:21):
undefined
I really do.
So that may answer your question then,or like I think your question was.
Does it reach us?
How far is it from us?
What's its impact on us?
Any of this.
I can remember a time when Ihad friends who said, are you
still on that bloody internet?
You know, it's like to them therewas a, an alternative reality.

(23:42):
You know, there was alife without internet.
They may still be offline.
Some of these people, Idon't see them so much now.
I don't know where they are.
There's very few of them left.

I mean, just as an aside, obviously
I was a person without internetfor a very long part of my life.
So all the influence I had was, youknow, what I could see every day.
My, my, my father loaded me with cynicismas a child, you know, there's nothing
magic I. Uh, there's nothing that, thatnone of this is, is gonna help you.

(24:15):
You, you know, religion is,is all a lie and all this.
So, and I guess it was, it was,that was sort of loaded into me
in the same way maybe the othermagical thinking would be loaded.
So he really set me up.
With my thinking, and therewas no outside influence.
There was no internet, there was nothing.

(24:36):
It was just me and myfamily and that was it.
So all my ideas now are loaded withmy dad's cynicism, and I can hear him
sometimes when I think about these things.
I. And so he still kind of guided meeven though he's, he's three, four years
gone now and, and, you know, and, and amillion miles away from when I was a kid.

(24:57):
But he's still there and he still guidesme because his thinking was my thinking
and he did load me with a, a sense thatthere is nothing out there but, but
reality and you just gotta get through it.

Can I ask you, when you were following
bands who I imagine and assume youloved quite a great deal, did you
feel you were in magical world?

Yeah.
Magical.
Possibly.
Yeah, definitely.
Sort of like a, an an altar world,like something different from
what I had to be every day becausemy thinking was such and such.
It, it was a space where Icould kind of celebrate a thing
and, and enjoy that thing.
And, and I did have a magic spark to me.

(25:42):
I, I guess because my thinking hasalways been quite stayed and, and,
you know, unbelieving and such.
That when I, when I was going to thesethings, and I still do there, there's,
it's like a, an altered version of mewhere I can leave a lot of the stuff that
troubles me day to day behind and justfocus on the, I guess, magic of being

(26:04):
in a place where you can feel like that.

I think that's what I mean by the innate
magical thinking or reality.
We're all born with that.
Things like religion and faith canexploit in us 'cause it's a need.
And if the given reality, the structuredreality out there that is offered to
you doesn't appeal or is painful, youwill look for an alternative reality.

(26:30):
And of course, that's wherethe exploitation can come in.
If you're really needy andquite vulnerable, it's very
difficult at a young age.
Get your act together and be kindaall knowing about these grownups who
might influence you in various ways.
Instinct is handy.
But yeah, I thought I would askyou about that because you know, it

(26:51):
seems to me like a magical universe.

It is, and it's, it's, and the fact that I'm still
very allied to it and still pushingall these years to find these spaces
where I can find my, my little alterego that has no sort of, I, I'm, I'm
not judging myself or worrying aboutwhat I look like, so I. Finding a space
where I can truly kind of just let go.

(27:17):
It's almost like there's a personalitytrapped inside my personality that just
needs venting once in a while and givena, a bit of a space to get out there
and kick out and be as disruptive.
And, you know, maybe I. A little whenI go to gigs, a little out there and a
little bit unhinged, but it, it's, it'sa good place for that to be, which is

(27:37):
probably why I chose music, not religion.
'cause it's, it, you know, you buya ticket, you go in and you go home.
I don't really want the, thefull actually being immersed
in something for a long time.
I wanna enjoy it, come home, havethe buzz, feel it, and then go back
to my, my oldy thinking because it,that's what I feel keeps me safe.

Music's a universal common language
and nobody really owns it.
And it's also a bit Marmite too,which means you can get into things
that can keep other people at bay.

That is true.
Sorry.
That's very true.
I was thinking about Japanesenoise music for a while there,

Lucy.
I've seen Mepo live.
I had to actually leave the building.

What, why did you feel you had to leave?
Was it really intense foryou, or what was the feeling?

Raymond-AutisticRadio.com: I wanted to retain my. (28:28):
undefined

Oh yeah, yeah.
No, that's fair enough.
That's basic.
I've lost some of my hearing.
I've got, I, I have apermanent whistle in my ears.
So just show goes to show, doesn't it?
I should have got out these spaces.
But you do see that I've been, when Iwas working in the music industry for
a very short while, there's a lot ofpeople who just found it way too intense.
Uh, I used to work in a venueand you'd see people walking out.

(28:52):
Of, of halfway through something and justsaying, I, I just can't do this anymore.
I've got to get out of here.
Not because it's particularly bad, butit's particularly loud or particularly,
you know, alarming in some way.
But I used to quite enjoy thewalkouts and having a conversation
with them about what, what itwas that drew them back outside.
I

just went into another room in a bar and it
was better because it was reduced.
It was like, you know, like whenyou're at an all night dance thing
and you go into the side room, soit kinda gets that mushy sound.
And I could then get into the overtones.
It was brilliant, but there was anotheractor saw at the same venue and the
base tones were so intense that Icould feel my trousers rippling.

(29:32):
It was, that was a greatnight, to be honest.
The arches in Glasgowgreat venue closed down.
Now

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: that's a brilliant phrase. (29:39):
undefined
Phrase.
I could feel my trousers rippling.
Normally, it would take like someserious substances to get there.
With

wavy trousers.
I used to de deliberately go and stickmy head in the bass bin sort of thing.
You know, you have the big bass speaker.
I used to like being next to that becauseof that, that it just reverberation
through your body was just like crazy.
And I, you know, uh, once, as I say,I've got permanent wh in my ears
from years and years of doing that.

(30:13):
But it is an experience like no other.
And you go there and you'relike, well, I've got tonight.
So.
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm nottoo worried about noise.
I like it.
It blocks stuff

out.
You're the second person I know who'sdone that to their ears because for
the, with the same behavior, just thesame, like, this is just worth it.
It's too good.

Well, head banging itself is just bizarre behavior.
When you think about.
There was something thatwas discussed recently.
I've been reading about John Harris'snew book, the Music Journalist, and about
his autistic child and how they bondedover the Beatles and Sergeant Pepper and
certain songs like, uh, it's brilliant.
I'll, I'll give you some links later.
And what was the pointI was going to make?

(30:55):
See if I go off on these.
Be tangents.
I can't get back.
What did I start saying?
And I.

It's interesting what you were saying, Lisa, about your,
your, your dad telling you there wasno magic and that kinda be your view
because I was told that by atheist parentsand I was just like, I'll show you.
And I do think, like encouragedmy, my magical thinking.
So yeah, I think we can be paradoxical.

I was, I, I went to, to reli religious
schools, so it was all there.
My mum was quite religious, butDad sort of overruled her a lot of
the time and shouted a bit louder.
And he was, you know, this was atime where people used to knock on
your door a Sunday morning and befrom something like the Jehovah's
Witnesses or something like that.

(31:44):
And my dad would treatthem in particularly.
I thought funny, uh, way at the time.
But now look, I look back andit's kind of cruel, you know?
He would, he, he deliberately baitedthem because he found that fun.
That's just my dad.
That's just the way he was.
But, you know, so, so I was going intoschool every day and being taught a
lot of Bible stuff and then, yeah, butI was really taking my cues from my

(32:06):
dad and I wasn't listening to my mom.
But maybe it's just because that's,I, I've got my dad's way of thinking.
Maybe that's what I've inherited.
I dunno.
But that's how it felt.

I read that little bit of text.
I remembered the point he was sayingin his book that rock musicians being
quite gifted technically, you know,with music were kinda useless at basic
day-to-day functioning and people ofteninterpreted it as being out their heads
or you know, out control or something.
But he was relating it after hisexperience with his child and other things

(32:40):
he'd been thinking about to be in you.
Neurodivergence or autism perhaps, but hewasn't wanting to draw that conclusion.
But when you think about it,sometimes the point he was making
was like, these people needed roadmanagers to do the basics for them.
Now that could be seen as indulgenceas well, yeah, I've got enough

(33:02):
money in fame to pay people.
He'd be my my funs and do things for me.
But a lot of them just couldn't getoutta bed in the morning or get their
clothes together or wash or anything.
So they needed organizing.
And yet we're skilled andable to produce this music.
So it was just a weirdthing I was thinking about.
You know, I.

You are absolutely right, Raymond.
I've known an awful lot of musicians inmy time, and I, I, I, I knew and worked
with somebody when I was doing stuff withbands that he was a road manager and he
was doing everything I. Everything, youknow, it was, he was, he was sorted out.
Whether, whether they're gonna eatthat night or you know, how we're gonna

(33:46):
do the sleep arrangements or it, it,it was never came down to the people
who were actually making the music.
And I knew some reallybrilliant musicians.
I've known a lot of really.
Brilliant musicians, but half ofthem, you know, they dunno which
way is up from what I remember.
And they just need that.
Somebody who's kind of planted in areally real world, the road manager

(34:06):
that I knew, he was very straight.
You would never think it ofhim, you know, that he'd be into
the stuff that we were into.
But he was actually the thing that,the gel that held it all together, that
we wouldn't be in a place if it wasn'tfor him sorting it out beforehand.

I love that we thing, I read once in the the
article about Chris Packham and abouthow he's very friendly with Vic Reeves
or Jim Moyer and how they have intense,lengthy phone calls at half two,
half three in the morning where theydiscuss swapping rare throbbing gristle
singles with each other, you know?
And you think like, oh, thisstuff's all going in the background

(34:43):
to these media personalities.

Yeah, I don't think Jim's come out as neurodivergent.
I want to mention something in thetext there because people might search
for this, how The Beatles helped myautistic son find his voice Guardian.
A search for that will takepeople to an interesting article.

There's also a podcast that can be watched, which is
more if you, you're more into hearingpeople, the author talk about this.
But the first half of it is himtalking about his career in music
journalism and you know, hislikes and preferences in music.
The second half was really, reallyinspiring about, yeah, just going through
it with real old figures in the musicjournalism business in the UK about

(35:32):
these aspects that may have not beennoticed over the past 50, 60 years of the
history of rock in the UK or the world.
To bring it back to the previousconversation, this is one of
these things that the youth kindaidentify with and respond to.

(35:52):
You know, I'm not gonna say it's just amale thing, you know, it's not old males
can have a certain attitude towards music,I think, but again, that's a stereotype.
Leave it.
Right?
So these, these formative years wherethe major influence hap happened to
you and the words can be put into youand these experiences and concepts.

(36:12):
You're supposed to live by, Ithink is an important phase.
And I think that's kinda like at theheart or maybe the core of, you know,
what Lucy was talking about with this newTV show with Stephen Graham adolescence,
I believe it's called, and the generaldiscussion about vulnerable youth in this
modern era with our technology, which Iwon't dam, you know, it's handy stuff,

(36:37):
you know, we've gotta live with it anyway.
We're in the machine.
We've got to coexistwith the machine somehow.
Focusing on that is going be tricky.
I

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: wanted to share some good news. (36:46):
undefined
So my son had been having a bit of ahard time in the Youth Foot, the youth
football team that he's part of, andI knew it was kind of autism, really.
It's stuff and the communicationbetween him and the coaches and then.
I was trying to help, but like, Ifeel honestly like the blind, the

(37:07):
blinds an awful lot of the time.
Um, I do what I can, but Ireally struggle with like.
I really, I've been really struggling withwhere people can't, couldn't understand
autism and were just seeing like a badattitude, which was so far off the mark.
Um, and I couldn't, I didn'tknow how to bridge that.

(37:28):
Um, but I, um, the, I was sopleased because I'd spoken to like
the coaches and let them know thatthings were, were tough and I didn't
really have particularly high hopes.
But, um.
One of the coaches went off and dida course that the Scott, Scottish
Youth Football got four coaches tohelp them understand autism and auto.

(37:48):
It's made such a difference,like a huge difference.
And like when I found out they didthat, because they hadn't, they
didn't tell us before they, they'dgone, but she let us know after.
And it was, I just feltreally like, it was funny.
Like I felt, I did actually feel really,really grateful and I know that like
kids are meant to be like a comedy, so.

(38:10):
It's kind of meant to be what'shappened, but I genuinely felt so
touched and moved by it as well.
And like yesterday, like he'd beenasking her to help him with some stuff,
like, can you help me with my gloves?
Things like that.
And then he'd asked her, would youfill my my water bottle for me?
And I'd nipped over.
I said, I can go if youwant to stay with the boys.
And she said, no, he's startingto ask me to do stuff for

(38:30):
him and I'm happy to do it.
And I just had this like, if youwanna help do things for my son.
Please go ahead.
Thank you so much.
It was really nice and it felt like oneof the things that helped with my son, see
it was like at one point I really sort ofseen that she was taken like some of the
the is meltdown, like personally and likefeeling rejected as a person and stuff.

(38:55):
And so like I was saying, I think thatI think she wants us to like her, I
think she wants to be liked and therewas something in that just kinda helped
him to sort of soften a wee bit as well.
Um, but yeah, like it's turnedaround and he's a lot, he's a
lot happier and I'm thrilled.
So yeah.
Just so you know, peopleare out there trying.
It's great.

Nicola.
That's beautiful.
I'm really glad for your sonand I'm really glad for that
team because it will spread.
I had a, a lovely positivestory just today on the tube.
There was a American family.
And it was quite clear to me that at leastone of their kids was neurodivergent.

(39:36):
They were sitting next to my wife and shewas having this lovely conversation as he
was stemming talking about birds with him.
And it was because mywife's neurodivergent.
It felt safe to him and didn'tfeel that his real interest and.

(39:58):
In birds birding and having hisbinoculars in this foreign town.
And I had a conversation with thefather and after he'd said that his
son was on the spectrum, and I said,well, I, I'm an autistic man as well
and I'm trying to think of one phraseI can tell you that might be helpful.

(40:22):
And I said, I'm 59 years oldand I've had a good life.
And he beamed and was really happyto hear that he said, you've done it.
That that's, that's the, that'sa lovely way of looking forward
to the positive future for my son

Nicola-AutisticRadio.com: to exist and to be happy. (40:42):
undefined
That's all it is gonna taketo inspire other people.
That's not too hard, eh,

thank you.
We have to affirm the positive andit's such a negative experience
at times, the way it's portrayedand the way you're supposed to.
And engage with the conversation.
You know, there's not a lot of theconversation that's affirmative
and positive and absolutelyout there militant almost.

(41:09):
I, I keep wanting to say there'snothing wrong, but there are things
that are wrong, you know, but it'sabout being positive about it.
But then there's also thingswithin the body and the mind that
make you a bit drained, so youhave to respect these things.
Yeah, when I suggested double empathy,it's just a word that came into my mind.
I, I've looked it up now and that's notwhat meant, actually meant the opposite.

(41:31):
Is there some way that somebody can,like when I, I'm not, what to say
that, you know, as the teacher maybeautistic, I'm, I'm not saying when
somebody can empathize or maybe evenlearn to empathize, you know, because I
think there's hope for emerging older.

The point about double empathy, Damon Milton, is that
in the past, autistic children werecriticized because they did not appear
to empathize with the group, with the,with the group that they're not part of.
With the 90 odd percent of averageJoes, they didn't look as though

(42:16):
they were empathizing with them.
And then he describes well.
The two different neurotypes empathizevery closely with each other.
It's just that when you cross into theother side, you have less empathy with
the group of which you are not part.
So if empathy is understanding somebodyfrom the inside, because you are

(42:40):
similar, if you've got two similargroups, they empathize with each other.
So the slur on autistic peoplethat we are not empathetic.
Was debunked in a way to say weempathize more with each other because
we find sameness in each other.

And I think I remember same once relating
to this very subject that sometimes inautistic communities, I can't relate.
Amen to that.

Yeah, we'd mentioned the resident alien,
uh, that's on Netflix as well.
It's about an alien who'staken on a human body.
So they're kind of having to navigate, um,everything including like having emotions.
So it's quite, quite, it's very,I find the humor really spot on.
It's like tickles me quite a lot.

Yeah.
The humor sometimes quite near the bone.
In fact, he makes reference to sometimeslike about being dark and being gross.
I'm assuming there's, we are supposedto take it that there are parallels
here to the neurodivergent experience.
Yeah,

that's what

Lucy-Dawson-Autie-Unmasked: I was taken from it. (43:45):
undefined
Definitely.
I know what you're talking aboutnow because I actually watched
this when it first came out,and that was some years ago.
But I loved it.
I thought it was really, it wasjust, it was just wonderful sort
of alien outside view of things.
And the humor was, it's justhe, he just says, what, what he.
It comes out of his mouth andhe's not really sure what he's
saying a lot, a lot of the time.

(44:06):
And he is, there's this naivety tohim that I really liked, but at the
same time, you know, he's this otherbeing and this other out there thing.
Yeah, that was great.
I'd forgotten all about it.
I'd have to revisit it.

Raymond-AutisticRadio.com: The gloriously inappropriate. (44:16):
undefined
I was wondering, Nicola, did youget an email I sent you about a firm
Brady conversation on Friday night?

I did.
I thought that sounded great.
I was wishing it was online becauseI'm not very good at, well, I just, I,
I don't get out very much, but I washoping it'll be streamed at some point.
'cause it sounds brilliant.
Like, I think especially 'causeshe's like speaking to a poet.
I thought it'd be a really, a good talk.

Now you make me wish I'd explained myself a bit more
in the email that it, it was a free event.
You could watch it online.
It was streamed.
I.

Usually for these events, you can
see the recording afterwards.
Is that possible?

I'm hoping so, but I might have
to navigate that bloody event.
Barite website.
Again,

going back to Resident Alien, I
think I'm gonna dip into that.
It reminds me of Morgan Mindy, whichis obviously a children's program
where the alien was looking at thingsfrom the outside point of view and
it felt then that there was a lotof neurodivergence being alluded to.

Yeah, there's loads of clever references.
Even the theme music sometimes I think, ohGod, is that six feet under or steam tune?
They've just played there.
Like they had the mash theme tune atthe end of one episode the other night.
And uh, when I first started watchingit, I really thought, is this the
same people who made I zombie?
I don't know if any of you have seen that.

This conversation has rattled along and it's been great,
Well, it's 5.
44 now, so our drop in hour is finished,and thank you to all the people who
have texted, and also to the peoplewho have put their voices to this,
that are going to allow us to put someof those words out into the podcast.
If you join us here at the 444, your voiceisn't recorded, your text isn't recorded,

(46:09):
but the people here have given permission,so that it's an example for others.
See you again.
Always.
Reliably.
Sunday.
444pm.
Cheers guys.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}444pm Drop in Sundays Adult Autism Conversation Open to All EP29

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

444pm Drop in Sundays Adult Autism Conversation Open to All EP29

24/7 News: The Latest