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"I just think it's a really good idea that you're taking this initiative to speak to different people and encourage dialogue and just makes it so much easier not to speak past each other." 

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" It hasn't turned out exactly how I expected. What I found is that there's a nice group of people who have found behaviorism to explain a lot of things."

 

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Well, we're not here to argue.
We're here to have a conversation.

(00:54):
We're here to have an understandingcreated between behaviorists and people
who have autism as their identity.
So if you're willing to come andadd to that conversation, please
do so here on Autistic Radio.
Thank you.
Spectrum Voices Conversation.

(01:15):
Autism.
ABA, PBS, The Big Conversationis facilitated by Autistic
Association through Autistic Radio.
Today we're speaking againwith Andrew Swartfigure.
Andrew was a pioneer In getting thisconversation going and when I look around

(01:39):
the internet, I see plenty of people whothink that all the discussion between
autistic people and The behavioristcommunity has already happened for them.
It's an a closed case Andrew is willingto reach out and have a full and open

(02:02):
discussion with us as autistic people.
We'll join Andrew today and start withsome of those elephants in the room
that he likes to describe them as.
Hello, Andrew.
Hi, Jules.
How's everyone?
Every time you come here Andrew Youprompt me to say talk about the elephants

(02:29):
Jules Talk about the elephants inthe room and you must be aware that
in the news in the UK at the momentThere's a rather large elephant.
There's a there's an open inquiry intoInto Mental health services in Essex.
The inquiry started as privately andnow it's a very public inquiry and an

(02:50):
expanding scope, already over 2, 000deaths within the mental health services.
You'll be aware of this, Andrew.
And the question coming is, wheredoes behaviorism sit in this?
Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA:

(03:10):
I mean, gosh, that'sa very large question.
, I'll start with some of the work that wedo, which I think, I guess, kind of, Is
the product of this type of thing, whichis incredibly sad and controversial in
so many different ways, we run what'scalled leader reviews, which are the

(03:31):
reviews that happen after somebody withprotected characteristic dies and the idea
is what else could be done differently.
Now, interestingly, that's notreally from a behavioral perspective,
because we have qualified stuff forthe medical profession doing that.
Just looking at the NHSservices in general,

(03:51):
but I think, and as you rightly pointout, that it is the elephant in the
room, and it's the elephant in theroom that speaks to poor services
that don't, don't keep the person atthe centre, that are the product of,
in my opinion, continuing raising ofthresholds for access to services.

(04:14):
An underfunded system that means if youhave a mental health issue you have to
hit crisis before you can access services.
. An underfunded system that isvery difficult to access if you
don't have your own agency, right?
So it's much like everythingelse that's underfunded.

(04:37):
If you are well educated, well positionedsociety, you can push for your to be seen.
You see that in education, you see itin, in mental health services and so on.
As we said, as a thematic analysisreally across all of our conversations,
it's this idea of building back agency,like giving someone back their voice,

(05:01):
advocating for their rights to be heard.
Some don't view, being autistic is.
in the same box as mental health.
Now, it's not, but somepeople think it is.
There are
lots of confounding variables.

(05:22):
It all points to if you are medicalizedto the extent of your symptoms,
your symptoms have to be chronic oracute enough, to, Access services.
In the end, people whodon't get help get worse.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (05:42):
The scope of this inquiry is going to go back
to some quite old fashioned practice.
But ABA has also been sold as analternative in restraint techniques,
and it's been sold as an alternative inrestraint techniques during this time, and

(06:07):
it would appear that restraint techniquesare part of the most controversial part
of deaths that are being looked into.
Are we in a safe community now?

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA: Well, I hope, I mean, the trouble (06:21):
undefined
is, Jules, I don't really, I don'treally know how to answer, what I can
tell you is that there is, an organizationcalled the Restraint Reduction Network,
governance, of best practice, and youwant to see that badge, particularly

(06:46):
around in care homes and so forth.
I don't think it's a statutory need to bepart of the restraint reduction network,
but more, more and more you see it NHS.
Like if you're going to be offeringservices, you have to be a member
of the restraint reduction networkbecause it's becoming a standard.
Yeah, look, for sure, historically, acrossall services there was a tendency over

(07:10):
all disciplines to, to look to restraints.
And there's all sorts oflegislation around it.
So it has to be reasonable,proportionate and absolutely necessary.
It has to be highly governed and so on.
And I think it will exist in some spacesstill because there are times where it's
reasonable, proportionate and absolutelynecessary to keep somebody safe.

(07:31):
I think people's minds immediatelyjump to physical restraint, and you
can learn to do that in a safe manner.
But there are other forms.
So there's chemicalrestraint, , Medication.
. You can drug someone tothe point of compliance.
I don't know enough about that.
So whether that's prevalent ornot, I just know that it's a thing.

(07:54):
And then further tothat, you would then have
liberty.
So there's a certain circumstances requireyou to record deprivation of liberties.
And they're particularlyprevalent in the adult community.
So let's just say an autistic adultwas living in a care home, or an adult

(08:16):
accessing education, it then becomesthis idea around choice and agency
again, which I really do believe is atthe crux of the matter, so deprivation
of liberty could be, so you and I couldwalk out in the rain if we chose to.
Somebody in our home might say,it's raining, you know, and they
said, I don't care, I can't bebothered, I'm just gonna go.
Now, a deprivation of liberty inthat circumstance would be a well

(08:39):
meaning carer saying, no, youhave to wear your coat to go out.
Equally, it could be as an adult, youdecide that you want a certain meal.
And then you decide, and on theway through the door, you say, no,
I want to go to something else.
And then same carersays, no, you chose this.
So we're going there.
And it becomes, you know, this whole kindof circumstance of control or deprivation

(09:00):
of liberty, which in the grand scheme ofthings needs to be noticed and recognized
and understood so that you are continuingto have this focus on agency you aren't.
creating problems for that person throughfrustration or, or even control because
you have a poorly trained member of staff, thinking they're doing the right thing.

(09:23):
Now, all of these thingscould go to constitute a bit
of a drip drip effect, right?
, having all these very small deprivationof liberty experiences, one day, you might
say, well, enough is enough, you know,your, your behavior might demonstrate
total frustration in one way or another.
Now the really difficult thing thenis, of course, that explosion of

(09:44):
frustration then gets recorded.
And then that same person in that samecare home gets a label of aggressive, or
disruptive, or destructive, or some, somephrases used as things like non compliant.
And now you're in this world of,well, hang on, this behavior has
been created by somebody else.

(10:06):
Now that person has to carry allthose labels and further deprivations
and further risk assessments.
And you begin to see how thisthing starts to snowball.
And then maybe it manifests in thistype of inquiry, like, are there 2,
000 unnecessary deaths on the basis ofa drip, drip, drip water torture type

(10:26):
effect, an explosion that has been causedby the environments in which they exist.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (10:34):
When we look at this inquiry, all of the
individuals, there's going to bedifferent factors involved, but in the
media, in the social media sphere, the,
the responsibility, And blame is goingto be put on to the techniques that have

(11:04):
been espoused by the behaviorist group.
The circumstance is going to be usedas a way to discredit behaviorism.
And what will the response beof the behaviorist community

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (11:28):
Yeah, well, If it's directly pointed at
Behaviorism, I think there's gonnahave to be some kind of response,
and we need to be ready to make it.
There was a recent article where, Itwas decided not to draw attention to it,
and that was the article that we spoketo last time from the Telegraph in the
sense of not giving it NG publicity.
I don't know of any overt behavioristinvolvement in that sector,

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:50):
do you see what we're hearing here?
We brought up an elephant in the roomwith you last time, and the elephant in
the room was that there was a Telegrapharticle that purported to say that
a program which included behavioristprinciples had been used to reduce A

(12:12):
pair of twins, autistic presentationto such a low level that they would
no longer be diagnosed as autistic.
And we asked you what the UK BehaviouristSociety would have as a reaction.
We asked why the UK BehaviouristSociety had not put out any

(12:37):
kind of statement to say,
We are not part of fixing children,and we are not part of curing autism,
even if we've been associated with it.
And now you're telling me whenyou come back to say, well, a
decision's been made, Jules.
A decision's been made, and the decisionis to keep our heads down, and not

(13:00):
further associate ourselves with it.
Now, I understand that, but Ialso call it a missed opportunity.
If the behaviorist professionalswant to be taken seriously in their
quest to change the perception ofbehaviorism and get cooperation from

(13:23):
the autistic community, it's these verysmall actions that need to be taken.
And I don't see that as anorganization that's doing that.
I see that as a, not a brave organization.
I see that as hiding,hiding in corporate world.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA: Well, I mean, you can posit that. (13:42):
undefined
It's your, it's yourright to put that forward.
I, I would agree, but demonstrably thatthere was no statement made about it.
The decision not to bring undueattention to it was, wasn't taken

(14:02):
from a cynical point of view.
It may be interpreted that way, but itcertainly wasn't from that position.
In that we bring it up, saysomething about it, then.
Keeps that story live.
Now, people may view that as a mistake,but that's, again, part of being a
newer organization and trying to findtheir footing . But equally, if you

(14:24):
do look towards what is published viathe Society, it does fly in the face
entirely of what was being promoted,if you like, in that Telegraph article.
So no, the facts of the matterare that there wasn't a public
statement made about it.
Decision internally, as I understandit, was not to Draw attention to it

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (14:44):
it's fair enough as a new, young organization,
you're picking your opportunities.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (14:50):
Yeah.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (14:50):
And, and,

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (14:50):
you

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (14:50):
know, I think
Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA:
people should expect to see thatchange over time it's become quite
clear that running from a, frombeing a set of volunteers, it's
going to need proper funding.
It's going to need to have people in post

Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group (15:09):
the sense of someone concerned digging to find
an adaptation that prevents it arisingbecause someone's concern knows about it.
It's not the same thing as masspublicity, casual impression.
There's a scenario we had a fewminutes ago with the carer and the
listening to what folks want as you goalong, not getting into that spiral.

(15:32):
Is that listening element reflected in
these unbehavioral, the ethical codes of

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (15:39):
society?
Of the UK society, yes, it will be.
Right, that's good.

Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group (15:45):
And then it, then it's a, that's a care difference
with the, the mental health settingsworking on the assumption that they know
best, which I'm certainly aware froma local present case, they still do.
When you've got an overlap of mentalhealth issue in the same person, it could

(16:07):
get the two standards sort of ripplingwaves into each other in the same pool.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (16:12):
We are often the go to organization
to try and get people to understandwhat person centeredness means.
What person led means,
a lot of the services that we providestart with the strength of agency
that a person is experiencing, levelsof frustration when they don't have

(16:33):
it, and then how we help the networkrecognize that this person needs their
agency, whether or not that's reflecteduniversally in all care settings,
I think, you know, It's clear thatit's not, in so much as we're the
ones that have it to bring it up tothe front and center of everything.

(16:55):
My worry is with this type of inquiryis that it, it looks only to systems
and not to the attitudes within them.
We end up not really knowingmuch more than the summary being.
The care in that area was subpar formental health, which is evident from

(17:19):
the increased numbers of deaths.
I hope the presentationisn't one that's circular.
I hope it's one that represents , anactionable set of circumstances,
which shifts the paradigm towardsthe build back of agency, because
without it, I think people are,

(17:40):
I would suggest at the very best.
having their mental health issuesamplified by people's lack of
understanding of what it meansto be able to make choices and
recover from a mental health issue.
Not to mix up
somebody who's autistic with mentalhealth, who don't conflate the two,
they're entirely different things.

(18:02):
I worry about lack of sophistication.
I think is my summary though.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (18:07):
We're here to have a conversation between , an
autistic group and a senior memberof an association, a society that
looks after the interests of.
So, in one conversation, we bring forwarda relatively trivial article of the

(18:29):
Telegraph, which says that in America,ABA is a cure for some children's autism.
And we feed back to say, if some kindof statement was made to slightly
disassociate the, the British sideof behaviorism from this, then that

(18:52):
would send out a clear message tothe autistic community that things
are changing or have changed.
And now I bring up something thatis an ongoing inquiry into mental
health services and I'm sayingfrom the autistic community, I

(19:14):
think this conversation is going tocome back to this again and again.
And in this circumstance, surelythere must be some kind of response
from the UK Society for BehaviourAnalysts at an early stage.
. Because if you don't, there will bea large amount of criticism in social

(19:40):
media, et cetera, to just say the reasonthese people died was because of ABA.
It was ABA restraint, you know,you've got this coming right at
you as an elephant in the room.
I understand you're saying volunteerslast time decided, let's not do this.
Make more of a fuss.
This isn't the this isn't the time tostick our head above the parapet How

(20:04):
do we as an autistic group ask you toas a behaviorist group to look at this?
Inquiry and make comment on this inquiry.
Well

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (20:18):
I'm really sure how to answer that question At the
moment, we're not geared up , to do , whatyou want us to do, or what you perceive to
be the right thing to do for the society.
On a personal level, I tend to agree.
I think at this stage, I don'tknow that ABA is going to have

(20:42):
any, be anywhere near this interms of this, in terms of inquiry.
Now people might decide to bring it in.
We may have to respondto that if that's true.
I think that's the point.
I think people might decideto bring it in, Andy.
And if they decide to bring it in,then I think that would probably
be a different circumstance.
In a world where you might bedesigning a strategy for your Maybe

(21:07):
your media strategy or comms strategy.
One might be paying attention tothese types of things and say, Do you
know what, we should make a statementon person led, person centered, the
importance of agency and so forth.
At this point in time, there isn't thecapacity in the organization to do it.
And people may argue that wouldn't be itsrole right now, because our role right

(21:30):
now is to represent behavior analystsas opposed to the mental health sector.
But I, I, I also understand where you'recoming from, because what one could
do is start to weed yourself into thefabric of this scenario and say, we
don't know what's happened here, butthe standards ought to have been, etc.

(21:52):
It's a tricky one, because what we'refinding is, is that we're, we're trying
to come on stream and alongside somevery complex and high profile things
that are also occurring at the sametime, whilst not being entirely ready.
To comment on these things.
So it's purpose right now is toregulate slash not even regulate really.

(22:14):
We haven't necessarily got themechanisms for that, but certainly to
certify and then therefore maintaincertification of people against the
relative codes of practice and standards.
It's not necessarily geared up to.
Be able to make timely comments againstthings that are appearing in the press

(22:36):
It will change

Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group: so it's about readiness. (22:38):
undefined

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (22:41):
It's about readiness for the society,
on the one hand, you've got variouscolleagues saying, this is what we do,
this is the perspectives that we have,
and at the same time, the expectationthat a society that is supposed to
be certifying behavior analysts andmaintaining the standards, isn't them

(23:02):
responding to big deals in the press.
, yes, it's about readiness, but there isan element of catch up and being ready.
Well, I know you're right.
It's about readiness,readiness and purpose.
Maybe at this point in time,

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (23:15):
I wholeheartedly feel for you.
What you're doing is somethingquite big, quite brave.
You're organizing a volunteergroup of behaviorists to regulate
the profession in some way.
And gradually that regulation becomesmore and more strict and more and more.

(23:36):
fit for purpose.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA: Yeah, exactly. (23:37):
undefined
The amount of work that went intobecoming registered was huge to become
PSA accredited and so forth , everythingtakes much longer whilst it's a
small organization in terms of itsadministration, but it's wholly necessary.

(23:59):
What we're going to expect to seepeople to be able to demonstrate
to be considered certified.
It's going to change over time.
So the first courses for being a UKBehaviour Analyst are manifesting now.
The change in supervision criteriais manifesting now, whereas before

(24:23):
we were reliant on foreign systems.
The UK society exists becausethe foreign system was always
at odds with the British system.
Which is not medicalmodel, it's a social model.
Not medical model.
It didn't start that way.
A lot of the Language in the 90s and soforth early 2000s was around recovery and

(24:47):
Symptoms that's changed massively overthe last 20 years or so and now we're
catching up with the regulatory aspect.
To be a UK Behaviour Analystwill be the standard here now.
It won't be possible to be qualifiedinternationally in any way, and it
certainly won't have any bearingfor new Behaviour Analysts.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:08):
My inquiry has given you the opportunity to describe
the situation, and I think that'sa reasonable thing for you to do.
If you're describing an organizationthat is that young, but has also achieved
a certain level by the accreditation,and then you look into the future to

(25:35):
deal with those two elephants I'vejust tried to describe, the, the future
organization you hope will have a betterway of dealing with the two situations,
a public inquiry into a number of deaths,which, like it or not, will be associated
with behaviorism by some people.
And.

(25:56):
, piece in a newspaper that fliesin the face of what you as
behavior analyst believes to beappropriate for this country.
Both of those things you're goingto have to deal with in the future.
You don't feel preparedfor them at the moment.
Well, and everything in between, Giles.
Yeah.
Here's the difference.

(26:16):
Yeah.
Okay.
But here's the thing.
Here's the thing, right?
This at this stage in your, in yourdevelopment as an organization,
you have the opportunity tobe able to elegantly address.
These kinds of elephants in the future,and the way you can do that is by

(26:38):
incorporating your autistic people,the autistic people who are already
in the behaviorist community, and somepeople like us from outside as well.
Get them right into the core ofyour organization right now for the
next stage, and I don't, I don'tbelieve you're quite doing that.

(26:59):
I don't, I think you might want that.
I don't think, I don't feel thatyour organization is making the right
decision if they don't really fullybring those autistic people in right now.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (27:11):
Well, we definitely have autistic members,
if you like, autistic board members,but also, you know, autistic people
in the academic and the behavioristcommunity, that's for sure.
The co opted aspects of bringingpeople in from outside into steering
groups or what have you is a kindof a next phase of development.

(27:34):
We, I think it's fair to say thatwe are an organization right now
that is establishing to serve thepurposes of behavioural analysts
in the UK because it needs that.
Certainly.
Working with autistic people,children and adults is.

(27:57):
A very large part of what people inthe society do at the moment, there's
a consumer based committee, but
maybe I'll say and,
they are consumers of behavior analysis.
The next phase is those that aren't,but also need to be part of the

(28:18):
conversation and that is definitely astrategic aim to move forward, but it's
about getting ducks in a row, right?
So we need to, our societyneeds to be what it is.
first and then ready for expansionbecause the practice already exists.
It's not happening yet in termsof its constitution, but certainly

(28:39):
in terms of the activities , it'strying to understand , how to have
the conversations, and my frame ofreference has been slightly kind of,
I guess, my own, like, this idea oftalking to the autistic community
or finding people that are willingto talk to behavior analysts
has been a very, long, road.

(29:02):
And so we're constantly learning.
I think the key message in the courseis to understand that people aren't shut
down, but we are trying to open the doorsand be able to be reachable, accessible,
and have that be a unilateral position.
As things progress, I think I wouldexpect to see it to be different.
That is my expectation in any case.

(29:23):
I

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (29:23):
think you'll find it interesting to listen to a podcast
that we have in production at the moment.
I'm still editing it.
We made the recording just on Sunday, andit was with Alan Tennyson, the chair of
the Irish Society for Behavioural Health.

(29:43):
And
it came around to theconcept of seat at the table,
and he was able to agree with me whenI made a quite a strong paraphrasing
statement that his organization wasinviting us in to have a conversation.

(30:06):
A seat at the table and to changethe structure of the way things
happen and to have a meaningfulinput with equity and communication.
I put all of those things in and hisanswer was to have an equal place at
the table is his goal, not to justhave us at with a seat at the table,

(30:34):
but to have us equally represented.
Now that.
That's a bold statement.
Do you think my closest organization,the UK Society for Behavioural Analysts,
will come anywhere close to it?
Well, it

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA: depends what it means. (30:53):
undefined
Like, yes is the top answer, becauseas an, well, we are an inclusive
society, but I suppose there's two waysto answer the question, isn't there?
If you're a behavioural analyst,you're a behavioural analyst, right?
That's just fact.

(31:15):
So it doesn't matter whetheryou're autistic or anything else.
Absolutely an equal seat atthe table, in the sense of the
Society for Behaviour Analysts.
In terms of everything else, youknow, bringing people in to have
Equal opportunities, equal equityin communication, opportunities for

(31:38):
influence, advice, helping societyunderstand the community that it serves.
Absolutely.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (31:43):
What are going to be the pushbacks?
The pushbacks?
You know,
every,
every behavior analystcomes onto the show.
Yeah.
And they say, We want reform, wewant future, we want inclusion
with autistic people, we have theseideals, we share these ideals.

(32:05):
There has to be some underlying pushbackthat's happening, otherwise there
would be more integration by now, no?
I don't know that it's

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (32:14):
pushback, , there's no pushback for autistic
involvement with the UK society at all.
And certainly no pushback,as I said before, in terms
of, if you're a behaviour you
know?
So that, you know, we have academicsand autistic academics and behavioural
analysts and practitioners inthe context of the society.
The, the resistance, I suppose, the flowisn't quite there yet because it's not.

(32:39):
It's current position, I think, isto make sure the field is regulated
from a set of standards and ethics.
It's moving rompily.
World in which the whole thingused to be very much underpinned
by an academic drive., and it's nowbecoming more practice led and , we
now have to think about the peoplethat were serving and helping.

(33:02):
So it will come.
It just can't all come at once.
But there's no respect to doing it otherthan time to establish it time to do it.

Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group (33:13):
There's some regulation and standards
emphasis, communication on, on
that, and there's, there's a goodcommunication experience for folks who
bring up a particular cold face levelcase of, either poorly trained or more
likely have got the training, justdon't care, um, shortcuts with the,

(33:36):
the agency that we were talking aboutearlier to get, get them specifically
regulated against us having been beenwrong in those particular cases and not
just on to abstract papers and ideal.
They're good experience happening nowfor the folks who raise those things.
Yeah,

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (33:54):
yes, that, that's, I mean, obviously
I can't go into specifics, butthere have been a number of.
investigations that have had tohappen in the context of the society.
, there
hasn't been that many.
. But yes, those things havehappened and the access, the
equity is there for that, for sure.
So if anyone, anyone wanted to approachand say, we've seen this, we do know

(34:18):
this is happening, here's, you know,due process would occur, We gather
evidence, we make judgements, there'sa panel for that, but see above I
suppose, because if you're the, some ofthe same people that might be on that
panel of investigation, if that's theright word, or inquiry into what's been
brought up, some of those people mightalso be in another, another kind of set

(34:43):
of responsibilities in this society.
So you begin to see there's any.
Really a handful of people.
If you were to approach on an equitablebasis to say, I saw somebody, in the
community who was restraining a child,I approached them and they said, , don't
worry, this kid's autistic and I'm abehavioural analyst, I'd expect somebody

(35:03):
to go up towards the society with that.

Maurice-ELAS-Autistic-Group: No, I could see there's, there's (35:05):
undefined
structures to unwind without,
but if you've got that far, you'redoing better than the autism services
scene is, because there's certainly notthis level of problem solving there.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (35:20):
There have been investigations, there have
been a handful over time, but they takea long time to do them comprehensively.
There have been examples of paperspublished that the Society have
kicked back , with the authorsprivately, that were UK based.

(35:40):
Is there an equity of ability for peopleto come to a society to make complaints
or make inquiries or to raise concerns?
Yes, there is.
It's an open forum in that sense.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Well, thank you Andy. (35:52):
undefined
We have, as usual,learned something today.
We have learned that the prioritiesat the moment for the UK Society for
Behaviour Analysts are more to do withthe relationship of enforcing standards.
We've heard that the concentration at themoment for the UK Society for Behaviour

(36:15):
Analysts is rightly so, concerned withgetting its own house in order and
ensuring that the people who practicebehaviour analysts do so according
to the standards of the organisation.
And we've Fulfilled ourbrief here with you, Andy.
We've, we've tried to bring up elephantsin the room and try to see where

(36:37):
that leads us with a conversation.
And what we've heard from you is thatunder the pressure that you are, you
are still saying that the Benefit toyou as a society of autistic people,
whether they're behavior analysts orwhether they come from outside, being
part of that growing organization,being part of the development

(36:59):
organization is key and crucial to you.
And then you've heard from us thatwe're impatient, and you've heard from
us that we want to be constructivein our little part, our little corner
of things we're impatient with, yeah?
Yeah,

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (37:16):
How long things take is a source of frustration.
And yeah, for sure, to be up, if wecould turn a switch and be up and running
into the impact and magnitude of thesociety we want it to become overnight,
that we're 100 percent would flip it.
All the things , we've been discussinginclusion of everybody all the time, , but

(37:38):
it's certainly not a finished articleby any stretch, but the priorities
have been to make sure that we at leastright now get the standards right,

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (37:48):
the other thing that's come across is that
behaviorism isn't just autism.
That you can't have halfyour board who are autistic
because there are other issues.
And there are other applicationsfor behaviorism in our society.

(38:09):
So there's always going to be a limit.
However, we're just speaking with you.
We're just speaking with a handfulof very progressive behaviorists.
People who want to talk from anethical basis and want all these
things to be embedded at the beginning.
What we're not seeing is thepeople on the ground coming

(38:34):
forward and speaking with us yet.
Sure.
Sure.
And that, that is where allthe actual work happens.
That's where the reaction fromthe autistic community comes
back at you as the, the society.
We really need to be speakingto more practitioners.

(38:54):
Can you facilitate that for us?

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (38:56):
Uh, yeah, I'll do everything I can to do it.
It's, uh, it's an agenda itemfor me when I meet with people.
I promote it.
I try to make sure peopleunderstand that it's
a safe space, so I'll continue to do that.
And I'd like to

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (39:09):
put Raymond in the text point of view people use text
here as well as voice and he pointsout that the flip of being impatient
for change is also is is the attendingto make it happen so as well as being
an impatient we are attending and here

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA (39:30):
ready okay.
I need any help so i mean i'll come backto the elephants in the room are important
because i help set the agenda it's nevergoing to be the phrase you use a while
back, do something about a sort of warmand cuddly conversation all the time.
And that's good.
It's a, it's how we grow wonderful.

(39:51):
Well, Welcome today andwelcome back in the future.
Thank you so much.
PBS,

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (39:59):
ABA, Autism, The Big Conversation continues here
on Autistic Radio and Andy willjoin us together again and we will
put him under more pressure so thatwe get some understanding going.

Andrew-Swartfigure-UKSBA-BCBA: Thank you, Andy. (40:11):
undefined
You're welcome.
See you again next time.
Cheers, mate.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (40:15):
Autistic radio is personal and it's informal,
which means that those takingpart speak only for themselves.
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
We shouldn't take anyimplication from that.
It's also the case that people'sopinions change over time.

(40:41):
So, while this recording isthere forever, people change.