ABA PBS Behaviourism The Big Autism Conversation Ep18 Niall Conlon BCBA

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AutisticRadio.com (00:03):
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
I'm going to go off cam now, Niall,and I hope you're going to go off

Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:23):
cam too,
because there's no point makinga television programme when we're
going to put it on the radio.

Niall-Conlon-BCBA (00:31):
That makes sense.
Also, when people are off cam,the communication is different.
It makes it a lot easier for us,

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: as autistic people. (00:44):
undefined
As you know, people estimate the amountof information people take in from the
words of a conversation is often lessthan 10 percent and the 90 percent being
the social cues and the body language.
So what we're doing is we're removingthe social cues and the body language

(01:09):
so that we as autistic people have aneasier Communication, something which
means we can focus on the words, listenvery intently to what you're saying,
and, and communicate back to you.
Does that make sense to you, inyour experience of autistic people?

Yes, I think it's, I can definitely see why that would work
for a lot of autistic people, but I thinkit's probably a good format in general.

Thank you.
There's a bit of an end of termatmosphere here at Autistic Radio.
We're coming to the endof one of our series.
The ABA PBS Behaviorism, TheBig Conversation in Autism.
And we've been praised by the autisticcommunity for even trying this.

(02:05):
And we've been praised by the behavioristcommunity in their different forms.
for reaching out.
One of the people who has helpedand enabled this is Niall.
Niall works for a large charity,something like five million pound
turnover, 90 percent of which comes fromthe UK government, and he has helped

(02:32):
us on social media because when hehas seen the posts of these different.
Conversations happening.
He has shared them to his wider networkamongst the professional community.
Hello, Niles.
Can I just say hello to you today, Nile?

Yes, thanks.
Thanks, Jules.
It's lovely to be here today.

Yeah.
Why did you, why did you makeyourself one of the people who was
willing to expand this conversationand put it out amongst your network?

, Niall-Conlon-BCBA (03:08):
I'm in the habit of sharing and promoting things that I
think are valuable, that are interesting.
I've helped to run the ABA IrelandFacebook group close to 10 years now.
About nine and a half thousand members.
I'm always on the lookout forthings that I think would be good

(03:32):
for people in the ABA communityto read or watch or engage with.

Okay, so you just thought we're doing a
generally a good thing and it wasn'tdangerous so you'd be part of it.
Have you then taken the postsfrom LinkedIn and from our
Facebook page and then sharedthem amongst your Facebook group?

Yes.
I will share, encouraging people,, in the direction of the show.

You've listened to our conversations, is there
anything that struck you about them?

I really like the format.
I like the way that it's not like a lotof interviews, that there are spaces
for people to think and to elaborate.
I think that pacing is really useful,especially if you're having conversations

(04:34):
that can be at sometimes typicallycharged or conversations that might
make some people uncomfortable.

What can I achieve in these conversations, Niall?
When I, when I put it out there, Iput out a provocative statement, and
I said, I want to change ABA, butI don't know what I want to change,
because I don't know enough about it.

(05:05):
Advise me.
What do I do as an autistic man who'srealized their autism late in life
and they come across something calledABA or behaviorism and it looks to me
as though it's in conflict with whatI'm encouraged to believe now that my

(05:26):
autism is part of my identity ratherthan being something that I have been
inflicted, that's been inflicted.
On me, that's been caused by somethingthat's been broken in some way.
That's a medical issue.

It's an interesting question to ask . I
think a lot of behavior analystscertified are part of organizations.
You ABA community.
They've found that it can bequite difficult to change ABA.

(06:07):
Somebody coming from the outside,it's difficult to know where to start.
Having these type of conversations, having dialogue in general.
It's a good place to start.
A lot of the time conversations betweenthe behavior analyst community and

(06:32):
the autistic community can involvepeople talking at each other and
people sometimes talking You know,taking on the form of a dialogue.
Really using conversationsas an opportunity.
Constructive.

(06:53):
Conversations people can have, likethe types that you've had during.
This series, I think themore of that, the better.
If you're looking at , ways ofinfluencing behavior, analystic practice.
It would be great if we could seemore autistic people, on school

(07:21):
governing bodies where there areautism schools or SEN schools.
I think that there are.
Also, opportunities, Things like ethicscommittees, human rights committees.
I think The main thing is that everybodyneeds to find an environment where

(07:46):
they can have these conversations wherepeople adopt a level of humbleness.
Humility is kind of really important,especially for the behavior analysts
in these types of conversations.

Yeah, I'm not gonna let you get away with that.
I don't think This is justdown to ABAs having humility.
In fact, I think the wordhumility is, is, is something
we need to, to move away from.
Maybe what you mean is that you feel yourcommunity hasn't embraced this well enough

(08:27):
and they should, but I would also say thatI don't see the autistic community having
embraced the dialogue with you at all.
This is not a blame game.

This is a failure, but
we can fix this,

and we can get a dialogue going, and we can get
it in this kind of forum going where wefeel that we're okay to speak with you.
I don't want you totake the blame for this.
I

guess, when I talk about humility, Especially with regard
to behavior analysts communicatingwith the wider autistic community.
I'm conscious that we have asa group sometimes taken on very

(09:21):
much the role of the expert.
Where it's very easy forus to sometimes point to.
Okay, well there's, thisis the definition of.
Autism, for example, and I see a lot ofkind of people will sometimes be quite

(09:42):
dismissive of things like self diagnosis.
There will be some behavioranalysts who will make the point
that some of the concerns thatare raised by the autism community
do not have a good evidence base.

(10:05):
And I think adopting that type of expertand data driven persona can sometimes
be a barrier to making people feellike they can speak to you as an equal.

Okay, so I suppose what you're saying is that
there's a hierarchy going on here.
Somebody wants to be the prisonofficer and the prison guard rather
than the prisoner in the experiment.
So to justify their position, they takeon this idea of expertise in autism.

(10:56):
I find the idea of expert in autisma ludicrous proposition because
autism is So new, so ill defined,so, so much of a dynamic concept that
for any single person, autisticor not, to describe themselves

(11:18):
as expert makes no sense to me.
Somebody who's good at inquiring orsomebody who's gained expertise in
various parts, but to be an expertin autism is ridiculous, surely.

Yeah, 100 percent I'd agree.
I mean, I don't think I would everdescribe myself as an expert in autism.
I'm not an expert in autism.
I'm an expert in behavioranalysis to a certain extent.
I'm good
at understanding the generalreasons why people do what they do.

(11:57):
I'm good at using that knowledge to.
design bespoke interventions, but thatdoesn't make me an expert in autism.
I think that you're right, theautism is far too broad an area for

(12:19):
anybody to realistically be able tosay that they're an expert in it.

There's got to be something that drives you in your career

that's more than.
Just paying the mortgage.
What is it in your workin the Jigsaw Trust that

pushes you to feel that you are creating a
difference or making something duringyour lifetime that will be of value?

That's a really interesting question, Jules.
Let's say I started a career in behaviouranalysis, it was partly that I reflected
on my personal priorities in life.
I knew that I wanted to do somethingthat was fairly pro social.

(13:18):
I wanted to make the world a littlebit better by the end of my lifetime.
And I wanted to do something, intellectually stimulating.
Like that was what I felt I neededto sustain a career in any area.
It's got to be something thatthere's challenges there and that

(13:42):
you can seek to overcome them.
I've worked in.
ABA and PBS for about 15 years.
At this stage I primarily focuson changing the systems around
training people in ABA and PBS.

(14:06):
So I definitely found it really rewarding.
working with autistic people, with peoplewith learning disabilities, helping them
to develop skills and achieve their goals.
But I've started to, I got to apoint where I started to find it
more rewarding, helping people,other people to do that as well.

(14:32):
So from my work with my supervisees,
Helping somebody to gain that typeof skill set that I was previously
using and helping them to be ableto help more people, to be able to
do things help them to be able to

(14:54):
follow their own paths.
That I found really rewarding.
With my current employer, a lot of mytime is spent working on training systems.

How much time in your career have you actually
spent with autistic people, Niall?
Because what you're describing here isyou're becoming a trainer to the trainer.
It sounds quite quickly that you've gotquite a long way away from, you know,
personal involvement with autistic people.
Mm

hmm.
, all of my time would have beenspent working with autistic people.
The last 5 years or so, I've probablyspent the least amount of time directly
working with any, any types of clients.

What do you think I'm trying to get at?
Rather than you giving me the, you know,the actual number of hours and percentage
of time, what, what am I asking when I'masking you how much of your time is spent
with autistic people in your present job?

Well, I'm guessing you're getting at the
idea that how much time do I spendlistening to autistic people?
And how, to what extent do Iactually know autistic people on
a personal basis, or atleast that would be my guess.

Why am I asking this, do you think?
I'm going to ask you tospeculate, Niall, for a second.
Speculate a reason why I mighthave asked that question.

Okay.
Well, if I were to speculate, Iwould guess you're asking because the
extent to which somebody has directexperience of interacting with autistic
people probably prepares them to trainother people about autism and how to

(17:02):
respectfully treat autistic people.
I
think that's part of it now.
I think it's a bit wider.
I think it sounds to me, and correct meif I'm wrong, that your experience of

working alongside autistic people is
currently almost entirely where theautistic person is put in a category
of requiring some kind of help.
So, there's an immediate inequality there.

(17:45):
Which makes

it quite difficult for you to
involve yourself withthat autistic person in

a

way that
sees them as a peer.
Is that a difficulty for you?
I guess it depends oncertain circumstances, Jule.
It's not that we shouldn't.
When you ask whether it's easy or not.

(18:17):
It's a very good question.
So, if I'm working alongside colleagueswho are autistic, it's quite clearly
very easy to see those people as peers,because those are the roles that we're in.
If I'm in a situation where theautistic person is my student, my

(18:42):
client, whatever term is kind of used,the person that's we're supporting.
It is probably more difficult tosee them as a peer, not impossible.
And yes, one of the things that wegenerally aspire to do is to collaborate,

(19:05):
to have a partnership working, toplace the person who is receiving
some type of support at the center.
Of decision making, but it's very easyfor people who are providing services.
To focus on.

(19:30):
Everybody else, the, theteam around the person.
It's very easy for them to focus onthe people who need to get things done.
Um, whereas.
I think that it can be quite difficultin practice sometimes to make the

(19:53):
person centered planning aspect,make that be more than just a meeting
once or twice a year, to make surethat you're checking back with that
person all of the time, basicallyevery time a new decision is made.
And that's something that youmight do with other members of

(20:15):
the team around that person.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: You mentioned that (20:19):
undefined

you have autistic colleagues.
And when I look at the Jigsaw Trust,

it had a total expenditure of 5, 179,
000 during the 2023, um, tax year.
And almost all of thatmoney is spent on wages.
Because that's how you provide services.

(20:49):
You

send people out.
What percentage of that 5

million income was spent on the wages of
autistic people in your organization,do you think, as a guess?

I'm afraid I wouldn't have access to that kind of information.
Wages is, takes up almostentirely all of our budget.
And those, that, that funding thatwe receive is quite specified,

(21:26):
it's specified for specific roles.
It tends to be basedon things like ratios.
So, I can't say, I don't know.
Specifically, what roles,
what roles are held or what kindof percentage of budgets are held.

(21:47):
Are taken up by autistic people.
But I think 1 of the things.
That's a lot of organizations that are.
direct service providers.
So whether that's in education oradult social care, I think there is

(22:08):
a need for having the flexibilityto use that government funding
to be able to getgreater input and greater
support from the wider kind of autisticcommunity and One of the areas that

(22:31):
I think is potentially would be quitevaluable to get more autistic people
into would be independent advocate roles.
Because I know that there are, that's oneof the areas that a lot of organizations

(22:51):
that provide direct support often feellike there's a greater need for people
to come into those advocacy roles.

Can you explain what that is?
What is an independent advocacy role?
Is it paid and, you know, can anautistic person make a career in
being an independent advocate toenable and help your organization
to carry out its mission?

Yeah.
So independent advocatesare often brought in to.
advocate for somebody who's receiving somesort of education or social care support.
A lot of the time they're brought inwhere there's difficulties understanding
the desires or kind of preferencesor there's disagreement over what

(23:47):
the desires and preferences are ofsomebody who is receiving that support.
The idea is that that person comes in.
Without an agenda with certain experiencesthat and training that would help them.
Identify what thosepreferences and interests are.

(24:08):
In a dispassionate way, those roles, . Aregenerally paid, , the situations where
I've seen that being carried out isgenerally in situations where there is
some level of ambiguity or disagreement.
Whereas I think it's somethingthat I would like to see

(24:31):
being part of normal practice.

So I'm not saying that you have the,
the power to make this happen.
I'm getting an indication from you.
that you would support the idea of paidpositions for autistic people who have
some kind of training to then act as

a advocate.
between an autistic

person that is receiving support and the
people who wish to give that support.
Is that correct?

There are Specific training courses that are out there
provided by other people with regard
to independence advocacy wewill sometimes in situations.
We'll ask the local authority Tobring in an independent advocate.
Or maybe the local authority might requestit or a parent might request it, but it's

(25:31):
usually in extraordinary circumstances.
So, whereas I think it's a, a.
Role that I would like to see 1st of all.
Become a standard part of the educationand social care planning process,
especially around any decisions relatedto things like deprivations of liberty.

(25:56):
And secondly, I thinkit's the type of role.
Where it would be really beneficialto get more autistic people involved
and into those roles because.
Of the perspective thatthey can provide when.
Uh, these types of situations emergefor autistic students or autistic adults

(26:19):
receiving some additional support.

That's something that you're trying to do.
open a bit more than you have beenin the past for those people to
be involved in your processes.
It's not something you wantto make intrinsically part of
your organization necessarily.

Well, a key part of the independent advocates
role is that they're independent.
So that if they're employed either bythe local authority or by, let's say, a
school or a social care provider, There isa degree of kind of bias involved there.

(27:00):
So, I think that it's the type of rolethat's actually better kept independent
from the provider organizations.
But that said, I would, if I was giventhe opportunity to redesign those systems,
independent advocates would be a keypart of the decision making team around.

(27:24):
any of the plans that are put inplace like EHCPs or care plans.
I think that's a role that I wouldlike to see being used more widely.
I'm a bit disappointed in that, Niall.
I think I'm disappointed because theopenness to having another organization

creating themselves and then becoming some kind
of independent advocate that you will,on a piecemeal basis, employer with a
contract here and a contract there anda few weeks there or a few days there.
That, that's just so far away fromthe, uh, the inclusion of autistic

(28:15):
people in, in autism services.
You've got a business that's set up asa charity, the Jigsaw Trust, that runs
a school, runs training organizations.
Almost all of its moneycomes from the government.
You would think that that governmentmoney would have some kind of strings
attached to it that would mean that thepeople who receive services in, as you

(28:43):
have said, there are no experts on autism.
So it's all a very, you know, wideranging and open conversation, autism.

I'm not receiving the feeling that there is a genuine

thirst for more involvement from us.
I still feel as though what you're doinghere is trying to keep it at arm's length.
Please convince me otherwise, Niall.

I can understand why you would say that that is disappointing.
With regard to the funding,as you've mentioned, is that
there are strings attached.
I know that for a lot of providerorganizations anything extra
is something whoever is fundingit is going to object to.

(29:38):
There's chronic underfundingwithin the sector.
And people are already fundraisingto effectively supplement
their normal day to day costs.
So while I think it's really desirable,something that we need to do in the

(30:02):
future, I can definitely see the barriersto kind of getting towards that goal.

Okay, so you've just described having a
meaningful input from the autisticcommunity by being at the heart of
your organization as a, as an extra.
Something that is desirable, but atthe moment with your funding, you're

(30:31):
keeping your funding to your chest tomake sure all your basic services happen.
and involvement of autistic people inthe way that I've tried to describe,
possibly not very well, is, is an add on.
And the add on is always an add on.
It's been an add on for decades now.
When we get a little bit of extra money,Jules, we will come and talk to autistic

(30:54):
people and we will train some of them.
We'll bring them into your organizationand we'll, but it's all fluff, isn't it?

With regard to my organization, these aren't
decisions I'd be involved in.
There's also potentially thingscoming up that I wouldn't be aware of.
I'll only talk in generalabout my experience with, like,
service provider organizations.
I can't really speak on behalf

of them.
You're right.
You're right now.
You're right now.
That will all be in there.
Okay.
Do not worry.
I'm not going to hang you out todry as somebody who's speaking
on behalf of your organization.

So yeah, I just want to make that bit clear.

Well, look, doesn't that just emphasize
something though, you know?

Yeah.

You've been put on the spot to answer a question
that you don't know the answer to.
Neurodiversity committees andthings like that to draw on

kind of expertise of neurodivergent people.
All of these things are kind ofrelatively recent, I don't know if they're
something that's, , you know, comingdown the line because my role in the
organization is slightly, , separate froma lot of the rest of the organization.

Okay, we're going to come to you
very specifically in a minute.
Yeah.
Just to put a commentto what you said there,
the first thing organizations do
When they say that they want toinvolve autistic people is that they
set up communication frameworks likecommittees and forums and steering

(32:29):
groups all of which have a disablingeffect on the meaningful input of
autistic people because of the waythey're set up in their neurotypical
communication styles.
So whilst I hear you saying a desirein yourself as a professional that

(32:54):
you hope organizations generallywill include autistic people.
I would say that the way that they tryto do them right from the beginning makes
it difficult for us to do the thing thatyou want us to do, which is to give you
the skinny on it, to give you the insideinfo, to give you the track, you know,

(33:14):
and unless you're willing to communicate.
With the autistic as a group, you know,in a way that we can communicate like
the audio model here at autistic radio,we're not going to get very far, are we?

Yeah, I
think that there is a need to kind ofadapt a lot of the processes that service
provider organizations often use whenit comes to involving autistic people.
. I will say that I'msomewhat encouraged by.

(33:54):
More provider organizations.
Having people with direct experience.
Involving those people inthings like recruitment.
In terms of some of thekind of policy developments.
I'm sure that the processesare far from ideal.

(34:18):
But I am seeing.
More and more organizations
have people.
Enrolls where they are making.
And I, an impact, even ifit's just at the level of.
What type of people get hired or what's.
What's going, what should, providingadvice and training to people in terms of

(34:43):
how best to support either autistic peopleor people with learning disabilities.
So I am seeing thathappening more and more.
It's might not be good enough, but it's.
At least progress from where things would
have been.
Let's say 5, 10, 20 years ago.

Okay, would the phrase glacially slow be helpful?

I think glacial, glacially slow probably reflects how
changes, change happens in general withineducation and social care in particular.
You, you hope, sometimes you geta little bit of a speeding up.
Okay.

(35:30):
After certain scandals, so afterthings like Winterbourne View, there
was the transforming care agenda,and there were genuinely some
significant improvements in the sector.
But it still wasn't good enough.
Yeah, we're still off.
We're still far off

(35:52):
we're still some way off whatI would regard as good enough.

I, I feel for you because the way you've come across
is that you're one of the people who,who wants to change things, who wants
to move forward, who wants to progressABA and PBS and all these different
terms that go with behaviorism.
But against the backgroundof your profession, you're a

(36:18):
tiny proportion, aren't you?

I guess it depends on which prof profession we're talking about.
, I probably know maybe a 100,let's say, behavior analysts.
I think that the sentimentsthat I've been expressing.
And the sentiments that you've hadfrom people like Alan or Andy or

(36:44):
Teresa, those are pretty widely held.
Beliefs., If you're talking moregenerally about, shall we say.
The social care sector.
Or the education sector for broadeningprofessional to mean that I.

(37:04):
My impression is thatthere is a lot of inertia.
when it comes to change and there'snot a full understanding of the
extent of change that needs to happen.
And it's not always obvious to, let'ssay, the ABA or PBS professionals

(37:27):
how they can fix that system,how they can change that system.
You have to work within the constraints.

We have a very short time before the end
of this conversation here now, and
I want to take up just that last point,and I want to say, there is a way around
this, and there is a fast track, thereis a way of avoiding all the glacial
slowness of going through the statusquo systems that are already created.

(37:58):
And the fast track is to go around theproblem, and to use co production and co
creation in a meaningful way with APOs,Autistic People's Organizations, and

(38:19):
small groups of professionals who arearranging themselves to be those partners.
And that, to me, is the future.
It's not me going to tryto get legislation changed.
It's not me coming to one of yourforums and then finding that I'm finding

(38:44):
it difficult to communicate there.
It's partnerships where organizations likeyourself that are very well funded spend
money on services from autistic people'sorganizations and then you will see how
they do things differently and learn fromthem straight away, straight across That

(39:09):
gets around all this glacial slowness.
Would you agree with that?
Or am I on the barking up the wrong tree?

I think you're describing something that can
facilitate change, but that won'tnecessarily in and of itself.
Change some of the issues.
, for example, social care support,not being good enough, referring

(39:40):
to the fact that.
Some level of deprivation ofliberty is often built into.
Commissioning arrangements,, somebody might.
have a risk assessment that says theyneed two people to support them in the
community, but they're only commissionedto have one person from after 8pm.

(40:02):
So if they want to go out tothe pub or they want to go
to a gig, they can't do that.
, A deprivation of that person'sliberty that's not That's
built into the funding model.

, Jules-AutisticRadio.com (40:17):
ho, ho, ho, ho.
In that funding model, if you wereusing an APO, you could use the
APO organization to provide some ofthose services directly and probably
cheaper than the organizationsthat you're creating at the moment.
I think this is simple economics.
APOs are cheaper.

I'm aware of, for example, the Stay Up Late campaign,
, getting gig buddies and volunteerssometimes to come along to do that.
But the ones funding it, it'squite common for them just not
to provide any funding for that.
So you're depending onsomebody volunteering to do it.

Hold on, hold on, no, you're being funded the organization
that's being funded then employsAPOs to do some of the work for them.
The funding is there, it's just you're notspending it on the right people, surely?

If a provider organization is to,
wants to bring that person out.
They're not actually, they don't actuallyreceive the funding required for that.
So, either the providerfunds that themselves.
You know, as 1 offs, itcan't be done systematically.
Or the fact that person isbasically in a situation where

(41:39):
they cannot leave their home.
eight o'clock or nine o'clock becauseof the way the support is commissioned.

I've simplified it perhaps too much.
So, an authority spends moneywith an organisation to provide
a service to somebody in need.
And that organization then has the choiceof how they provide that service and need.
And they can choose to use anAPO organization or an autistic

(42:11):
person even that they employdirectly to provide those services.
There's no extra here.

Yeah, the kind of commissioning arrangements that
I've come across tend to be basedon hourly commissioning models.
, where I've worked for organizations wherethey have provided support outside of
what was agreed with the local authority.
But you can't basically do thaton a permanent basis without

(42:41):
running up on significant losses.

Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Still not understanding. (42:45):
undefined
All I'm saying is, why can't thatperson who you use to provide
the service be somebody who isan autistic person or an APO
organization that uses a subcontractor.
Why does it have to bea non autistic person?

(43:06):
Because that's how it looks at the moment.
Hmm.
It's obviously complicated now, and inthe end, I don't think I quite understand.

Or I may Be missing something.
, the general point about partneringwith kind of autistic organizations and
building up long term organiz buildingup long term relationships with them.
It's something that provider organizationsneed to do more of, but I think it's

(43:39):
really important that those are longerterm relationships so that It's not
really kind of a patchwork of, okay,we're just going to involve you for
this period of time, but it needs tobe a case where you can partnership
with a number of those organizations toreally work on more strategic elements

(44:04):
and not just figuring out a particularproblem that we're having this week.

Niall.
I'm going to take up the offer ofRaymond and the text, and he says
maybe it's okay to leave a hangingquestion for further discussions.
And I think he's right.
This bit, this last bit, this inclusionof autistic people as workers, as, I
don't know, lived experience, in invertedcommas, experts, this is an open question

(44:37):
and something we are in a confusionright now in this conversation and that's
part of what Autistic Radio is doing.
We're having conversations and sometimeswe can't get to a nice, neat ending to it.
So yeah, further discussions onhow autistic people themselves are
used in some kind of equality basisneeds to be looked at in the future.

(45:03):
Now, is that a reasonablething for me to finish at?
I

think it's a reasonable thing to finish on.
I think that I guess one of the thingsthat I've always found in terms of
my more recent work, like designingcourses and delivering training and
things like that is I end up sometimesdiscussing kind of concepts related to
neurodiversity, human rights, theimportance of censoring autistic voices.

(45:30):
And I'm also conscious of thefact that I'm designing and
delivering some of these things.
I might be basing it on guidelinesthat have been co produced.
So it might be.
educating myself by going outand listening to talks given
by autistic self advocates.

(45:51):
But I'm conscious of the fact that whenI'm developing these, these trainings
that are related to autism and learningdisability, they're not being co produced.
And I think that's something that Iwould like to do more of in the future.
I think that it's something that alot of people in similar positions

(46:14):
to me are trying to do more of.
It's just one of those areas whereI think there's a lot of room for
kind of partnership in the future,well, and also in the present.
Well,

Niall, we didn't get to a solution, and we're not
expecting to get to a solution in ourconversations here on Autistic Radio.
We're certainly trying to open up.
ways of communicating with each other,especially with the behaviorist community.
So thank you for joining us here today.
Please continue to share our conversationsso that more and more people in your

(46:57):
profession engage with us and maybewe can have another conversation
I've got a great idea for a bit ofco production with you, and I'll
speak to you about it offline, Niall.
Is that okay?

Yeah, that sounds great, and thanks Jules, Harry, Raymond,
and everybody for having me today.

Cool.
Join us again.
ABA, Autism, Behaviourism, PBS,The Big Autism Conversation.
With luck, the organisations out therewill be co producing a second series.
But, for now We're very close to the endof the first series and I hope you'll
find the other episodes out there havevery different voices from both the

(47:38):
autistic and the behaviorist community.
So, look on our websiteand find all those links.
Autistic radio is personal and it'sinformal, which means that those
taking part speak only for themselves.
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a

(47:59):
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
We shouldn't take any implication from
that.

AutisticRadio.com (48:07):
It's also the case that people's opinions change over time.
So while this recording Is there forever?
People change.

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