June 11, 2025 • 49 mins
Dr Virginia Bovell OBE- Dr Colette Ryan PhD
IMH-E, DIR-C Expert Expert DIR Training LeaderBoth professionals have a wealth of experience in education and the establishment of schools for the Autistic and Neurodivergent populations.
In this conversation ABA and floortime are looked at. We hear a great deal that affirms the versions of identity that are the basis of the Neurodiversity paradigm.
Autistic Radio encourages professionals to explore common ground with each other and the Autistic advocacy movements.
AUTISTIC RADIO.com IS ALSO Live Broadcasting
Listen and comment in a LIVE Podcast Recording
5.55 PM GMT Every Sunday
1PM EST in USA 10AM PST
Autistic Conversation - Our Autism
We Speak - Our words - We Listen
Listen Live from these pages and text comments to us for our responses
https://www.facebook.com/AutisticRadioCom/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/autistic-network-radio-podcasts-blogs-8b098a270/
Live Raw Authentic Autistic Unscripted Unedited Actually Autistic
Listen to podcasts Link HERE ...
https://autisticradio.podbean.com/
Contact us: https://www.autisticradio.com/ https://www.facebook.com/AutisticRadioCom/ https://linktr.ee/autisticradio Link Us - Network Us - Share Us Autistic Autism Radio News@AutisticRadio.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
We speak our words, we listen,we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:18):
Hello again.
It's lovely to know that somany of you are finding autistic
radio all around the world.
I'm very aware that we have a largecontingent of people listening to us
in North America whilst we come from.
(00:46):
Is country specific, but there'sa universality about the human
experience, and I want to speak todaywith two very valuable contributors to
research in autism and the practicalimplications of how autistic people are
(01:12):
in.
Colette Ryan, who currently is in Japan,establishing a school that is based on
principals closer to floor time than a BA.And we also have Dr. Virginia Bogle, who
(01:37):
has a long history of establishing first.
School based on a B, a principles.
And then she has, as the world hasprogressed, and as neurodiversity
has moved into a movement, shehas modified some of her original
thoughts, but without rejectingthe science of behaviorism because.
(02:09):
That in some way.
Correct.
As an introduction for you.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Yes. (02:14):
undefined
Thank you so much, Jules.
That is absolutely , where I find myself.
I think one caveat though is that Ithink when some advocates of behavior
analysis talk about their work as a. It'sas if there's an exclusivity around it.
(02:38):
I would also embrace othersciences, neurological science,
technical science, medical science.
Sometimes the disciplines competeand I think we have to talk
about science in its broad sense.
Behavioral science is just one way and a
(03:00):
ethical.
Human behavior, but we haveto look at all sorts of other
scientific contributors as well.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:11):
And Dr. Collette, when I introduced you, could you flesh
it out a little bit for the listeners
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (03:18):
I am living in, in Tokyo right now, which I absolutely love.
My work here is to floor time, which is a.
Bring it to Japan, bring it tothe school that's being developed
here, bringing it to parents toschools to provide an alternative
(03:43):
to more compliance-based education.
Compliance-based interventionthat's been used here.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:53):
So to both you, I'm give you some feedback from listening.
So to both of you, I'm gonna giveyou some feedback from our listeners.
You have cooperated with us on a number ofoccasions, both separately and together.
The perception is that you guys areopen to ideas in, in ways that other
(04:19):
people in the field of autism don't.
How much influence are you managingto gain over conventional thought
in the professions around autism?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:41):
Well, first I'm gonna take that wonderful compliment that you
just gave, Virginia and I, I thoroughlyenjoy the times, Virginia and I.
I hope that I am open to listeningto other people's points of view.
(05:04):
My goal is to be able to, to determinewhat is needed, what does an individual
need, and if they need floor time,then we'll provide floor time.
But if that individual also needs somevisuals, bring in the teach model.
(05:26):
Let's bring in some of.
If the individual also needs a littlebit of self-regulation work, we
can bring in self reg, we can bringin the powerfully you approach.
So I, I think my goal is to determinewhat an individual needs and, and
support them and finding those things.
(05:48):
And if it means I need to be open-mindedto other approaches, then that's
what that individual needs from me.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I feel very similarly. (05:55):
undefined
There's always this intriguing factthat we've come from different inverted
comma brands, but actually it'salways so lovely talking with Colette
because there is so much overlap.
The individual need iswhat it's all about.
(06:17):
There is of course a sideline issue ofwho decides what the individual needs.
When it's an infant or a young child,parents and teachers are deemed
to be the sort of custodians ofunderstanding what someone needs.
And as they mature and get older,they acquire agency and are more
able to state or indicate whatthey believe their needs are.
(06:42):
So that in itself is, is anarea of potential debate.
Flexibility.
I mean, certainly the questionof how much we've managed to
influence others in our field.
I have noticed an enormous, enormouschange in the field of behavior analysis
(07:06):
in the UK in the just about 30 years.
Things that were seen to beroutine back in, for example, 1997
(07:26):
now are just not routine at all.
They're totally disregarded.
The neurodiversity movement in theUK has, as far as I can tell, being
embraced and certainly all communication.
Technology,
(07:49):
books, et cetera.
All these additional toolsand aids have been adopted.
People are working in a multidisciplinaryway to address sensory issues.
I do believe that the whole field isbecoming more openminded and humble.
(08:09):
And reflecting on what, if anything,a behavioral approach can offer an
individual at at one particular time.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (08:19):
I love what you said about who determines what an
individual needs and, and I thinkas a mentalist I look at development
to think about what the individualneeds, but as a floor timer.
I also look at what, what theindividual is really interested in.
(08:47):
They, I may think developmentallythey're ready to move on to a higher
capacity of development, but in thatindividual's mind, they're really
enjoying just working on engagement.
They're really loving this.
(09:07):
So I think you're right that we haveto figure out, not who decides, but
where that decision would come from.
What are the, what are the thingsthat we need in order to determine
what goes next for an individual?
So I really love that you brought that up.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Thank you. (09:25):
undefined
Thank you for our sharedview on what's important.
And I in turn.
One of the many things I've learned fromneurodivergent people is how crucial
the field of being interested is thetropic approach that some have written
(09:49):
about this idea of being passionatelyinterested in things, which is perhaps
a unique thing that really applieswhether someone is intellectually very.
Or very bright actually struggleswith learning like my son.
The, the capacity to be passionatelyinterested is a wonderful thing, and I
(10:14):
think if one doesn't work with someone'sinterests, one is likely not to be able
to engage in, in any of Reciproc exchange.
For the individual to be motivated tolearn if they're not being engaged.
(10:35):
I do however, recognize that noteveryone adheres to the idea of
mono tropism, and I, I wouldn'twant to do a whole session on it.
I, I just refer to it interms of the literature.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (10:58):
Who gets to decide if someone's interest is
worthwhile or not is something thatI've been reflecting on because there's
something here in Japan, there's a,there's this, it's called fandom.
You know, there's, there's people whoare passionately interested in anime or
(11:20):
just have these.
That that is not a good thing.
You know, being interested in trains,being interested in clocks, being who's,
who gets to decide if that interest isworthwhile or not, is something that I've
been reflecting on quite a bit lately.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:43):
There's a third wheel to this conversation, and that's
the community which I try represent.
The concept of mono tropism issomething that has been embraced by
(12:05):
both conventional thought and alsosome of the advocates in the world of
autism from an autistic perspective.
But when I speak to a number of autisticpeople I find actually that a majority of
autistic people reject mono tropism andsee it as a, a slur on their identity.
(12:32):
They see it as a method of dismissingus and a way of going back to old
and inflexibility.
Mono tropism it's not a done dealas far as the community goes.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (12:51):
I'm just thinking about using that as a label for someone
and it, it has a, a negative connotation.
We have given it a negative connotationfor describing someone who has a.
(13:13):
, I totally agree with you, Jules.
I, I don't think it's an important thing.
I don't think it's an appropriatething to label an individual, as
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I'm really interested to hear that (13:23):
undefined
it's being interpreted in this way.
All I can say is I personallyview it very positively.
Possibly stimming when I see my sonabsolutely fascinated as he currently
(13:46):
is with a rubber toy snake, and hewiggles it around in a particular way
and he's obviously not just gettinga sensory feedback, but he's seeing.
That he finds really fascinating, andI don't see that as a negative at all.
(14:08):
I actually love the fact that he, hesees it in that way, in a way that
probably, I, I don't, it, it doesalso lead me to, to reflect, sadly, on
how the language that been using for.
(14:32):
Intentionally positively andcan then mutate into an insult.
I'm thinking of the term mentalretardation, which initially was seen to
be used as a sort of neutral descriptorand then became very much a pejorative
(14:53):
thing in, in other fields I'm thinking of.
Is now changing tointellectual disability.
There's, there's so many ways inwhich a word mutates because the
wider society sees something as,as a slur when it's initially
(15:14):
coined in a, in a more neutral way.
And I, I'm just wondering if, ifMonetarism Monoism has suffered
the same fate as, as other
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (15:25):
labels.
I, I absolutely believe that it has,if you, if you think about describing
someone as having a narrowed interest ormaybe one or two narrowed interests that
don't allow them to have other interestsor get interested in other things
(15:46):
around them, I think that's a rathernegative way to interpret their behavior.
So I do think that it's, it hasdeveloped a negative connotation.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:00):
I like what you're saying there, Virginia, because
language is continuously developing andthere's always gonna be overlaps and
there's always gonna be sensitivitiesaround language, and there's always
gonna be language that is appropriatein one context, maybe a textbook on a
public.
(16:23):
The concept of Monoism has developed intoa label, a label of narrow-mindedness
effectively, but it's a concept that isembraced locally here in Scotland by a
particular group who advocate the son ofthe original professional who coined the.
(16:52):
Tried to have it out there asa concept in a positive manner.
I haven't yet managed to get a proponentof mono tropism to come and fully explain
so that we can move beyond the label.
And I, I hope in the futurethere will be somebody who can
(17:17):
speaken.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Both you and I Colette have (17:18):
undefined
set up schools which are linkedwith, you could say brands or
particular educational approaches.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: And I'm very ambivalent really (17:30):
undefined
about the value of that.
I think on the one hand, it's veryimportant to have approaches that
are open to evaluation and rigorous.
Rigorous monitoring, I suppose, andhigh standards, and often evaluations
(17:53):
require very consistent approach.
Otherwise, you never know if anoutcome links to the educational
approach or to completely other things,
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:02):
right?
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: On the other hand, sticking to (18:03):
undefined
a particular model is very muchagainst what you I both talked
about already, which is the need to.
Bring in new influences according tothe unique individual in front of us.
So I think there are pros andcons of nailing our colors to a
(18:27):
particular approach and, and likewise,researchers, some have said we
definitely need manuals if we're doingan evaluation trial and have said.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:43):
That as a floor timer, I, we have the flexibility
in our model to be able to bringin ideas that that maybe aren't
strict floor time approaches.
And just to describe a littlebit about the school started.
(19:13):
But it also has elements ofReggio Amelia in it, so it's
not strictly just floor time.
It's also, again, it, we're using visuals.
So it's, it's bringing insome of the teach model.
We're doing a lot with sensoryneeds, so we're bringing in, we have
(19:35):
several occupational therapists thatwork with us, so we're bringing in
what is needed for our students.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: That's very interesting to hear, and I (19:43):
undefined
suppose my supplementary question would bewhether the sort of, if I may say hardcore
floor time proponents would ever say,well, you are diluting it or you are, you
are just moving over to being eclectic.
(20:03):
I know when in the early days ofsetting up Treehouse, eclecticism
was a dirty word, you know?
Oh, the eclectic people, they,they're just a bit of this and that,
and they're working on guesswork.
Whereas the behavioral science allowsus to look at data and evidence
and, and base what we do on, on.
(20:33):
How, how can we be the best ofeclectic without losing maybe
some of the rigor that made usbelieve in, in the model in the
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:43):
first place.
And I think it's different for afloor timer than it would be for
someone doing more of a behavioralapproach, because as floor timer.
I don't believe that we, by bringingin, again, teach model sensory
(21:08):
integration, the different approachesthat we bring in as needed, I don't
think we're diluting the model.
However, if someone wanted tobring a BA into a floor time
classroom, then I would say.
(21:29):
You're dilu the floor time,because the, the floor time is very
different than the a, BA approach.
It it based on two different sciences,behaviorism or developmentalism.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Could I come back on that? (21:44):
undefined
Because I would not want anyoneto think that contemporary A,
b, A is anything like what I.
Also my, my perception of contemporarya BA, certainly in the UK is that
(22:06):
it is very multidisciplinary.
It, it, it isn't impositional and it'sdevelopmentally informed throughout,
in a way that sort of crude early.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (22:29):
And I.
(23:13):
A child I.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (23:25):
Modern A BA has moved away and you are very much
speaking in the context of the uk.
And my experience as an autistic manlooking out into the world is very
different from that because what I seearound the world is that the kind of
(23:50):
values and opinions that you express.
Are an emerging minority, but it looks tome as though the expansion of a BA, not
just within a North America, but into allthe other continents around the world,
is happening in a very old fashioned
(24:17):
When India recently or when.
Non-government organizations, thewhole way that a BA was put across
there was training children to fitinto society to ensure that the
children of the middle classes wouldbe successful in the the capitalist.
(24:53):
Whilst there's a growing number of peoplewho are moving to this model that you
espouse, the reality worldwide is that theincrease in traditional A BA is bigger.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (25:08):
And Jules, I would, I would agree with that.
I'm seeing many individuals.
Than what Virginia is beautifullydescribing and would be lovely
if it was happening everywhere.
(25:28):
Unfortunately, it's not.
And as a floor timer, I want tobe able to look at how, how can
I support an individual to bethe very best person the best?
Wanna be not what societytells them they need to be.
(25:51):
And, and that means that compliancebased learning is not something
that I, I'm willing to include inthe floor time school that, that
we're having here in, in Tokyo.
And I.
(26:13):
And, and I would love if there weremore a, BA people who were thinking
the way that you're, I have to wonderthough, that if the a, b, a people are
starting to think more like floor timers.
Maybe they wanna come and befloor timers too, but, but if we
could think about how we can getVirginia's message further around.
(26:38):
Strict behavioral model.
You know, 20 to 40 hours a week of aBA is not necessary for little ones.
We have research that's showing usthat this is not necessary, so we
need to, to support others to hearhow Virginia and her colleagues
are embracing a different type of,
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: oh, thank you. (27:00):
undefined
We need all the support we can get.
I think, I mean, I do agree that.
The, the progression, the progressivemove within UK A BA is, is at possible
odds with how it's developing elsewhere.
I, I've said in, in my book thatit dawns on me that how things
(27:24):
are funded has part to play in.
The, the public sector, thelocal authority or the, or the,
the National Authority deem anintervention worthy of funding.
(27:45):
It's much less often than, thanit seems to be elsewhere in the
world to do with private insurancefunding or indeed, as you said.
And, and the, the public sectorethos for funding and intervention
is, is much more holistic.
(28:06):
It's about meeting needs, including, wellbased on how best for an individual to
thrive in, in whatever way is right for.
How will they get a good job in the futureor how will they fit Instream society?
My caveat though, would be around.
(28:32):
Fitting into mainstream society,we, we do not want individuals to be
deprived of access to communicationsuch that they become very distressed
and possibly destructive in theirbehaviors to others and to themselves.
So there are obviously areas where.
(28:52):
We want people to be feeling good aboutthemselves, not so distressed that they
have to resort to injury and so on.
So, but I would talk about beingcooperative rather than compliant.
I, I'm very proud of how myson, he's incredibly cooperative
and I don't think it's because.
(29:15):
But because he's learned that other peoplecan enable him to access what he needs
and to help him have a really good lifewhen his physical health problems allow.
So again, we come back to language.
I think compliance is ahorrible, horrible world.
You know, it might be true ifyou're working in the armed,
(29:38):
forget.
To, to thrive in, in the world.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (29:48):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
And I, and I think that as, as afloor timer and having what, what
amounts to probably a minusculeamount of sensory information,
sensory based understanding that I.
(30:12):
How can we support an individual to,as you say, be, be in that social
interaction, be feel good in thosesocial interactions while supporting
others, supporting that co co-partner?
Could we have them understandand attune to that individual
(30:34):
sensory needs, and would thatmake their ability to be social?
Easier.
And what that's gonna mean then isthat we need to support the predictably
developing world to understand individualsat a deeper level and to be willing to
(30:55):
attune to what they their partner needs.
And that's, I know, that's my wish.
That's my hope.
And I'm.
Able to attune, but I think that's noted.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: What you are saying is absolutely (31:13):
undefined
right for all that we're encouragingindividuals to be able to tolerate
things that are often barely tolerable.
There's a lot of wider societal workto be done to influence the social
and sensory environment that we all.
(31:37):
Recognizing that working on an individualfeels can seem quite pathologizing
if, if we're not also trying tochange the wider environment in which
young people have to grow up in.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (31:54):
Absolutely.
Virginia.
Well said.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (31:57):
I'd.
Present at the UK Society forBehavioral Analyst Conference.
Why Autistic Radio is soon topresent at the National PBS
Conference, the in Newcastle.
(32:19):
We as an autistic group, which tomodify the things that are out there
to support us, whatever their brand.
It doesn't feel possiblein the rest of the world.
(32:40):
So for the listeners in the rest ofthe world asking why we cooperate
with practitioners of behaviorismhere, it's because the scenario
here is developing differently.
And if.
(33:04):
Then it's possible that thatmight have a spread using the
neurodiversity paradigm further afield.
So if you are in the United States,or Canada or Australia and you are
thinking, what on earth is jus doinghere, please take that into consideration
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (33:25):
with.
Different in the UK than it'sin, say the US or in Australia
or in Japan or in the Ukraine.
Anywhere around the world.
(33:45):
How do we have, do we have differentunderstandings of neurodiversity?
I think that's such an interesting
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: question and. (33:53):
undefined
When I look back when my son wasdiagnosed, things are so different
already, and sometimes change feelsvery, very slow and disheartening.
(34:14):
But actually when I think that in 30years the language and understanding
around autism and interventionshas absolutely transformed, you
know, neurodiversity wasn't a.
It wasn't even a word, letalone a concept 30 years ago.
(34:36):
I think we're all stillevolving, aren't we?
And one of the things I was reflectingon before today's discussion was an idea
of autism's, plural, which is what someresearchers are now saying because breadth
of experience and personalities and needs.
(34:59):
And experiences of people allwho come under the neurodivergent
umbrella is so broad.
I, I think it's an open question asto where we're all headed, but I think
what's really, really important and,and I'm very grateful to Autistic
(35:20):
radio, is that these conversationshappen respectfully listening.
Humbly admitting where we havemade mistakes in the past.
I'm talking very much about myself and thelanguage I might have used 25 years ago,
and I just have to sort of hope that theneurodiversity movement, such as it is,
(35:44):
will go on teaching the rest of the world.
Many things about how.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (35:57):
What I see at the moment is a reverse happening.
What I see at the moment is autisticpeople, neurodiversity being brought
into the culture wars as we now callthem, and that's very risky for us.
All part of that can actually bewhat you described taking autism and.
(36:26):
Autistic people is reverting to functionallabel, and I wanna clearly say that as
a 60-year-old autistic man, my naturalempathy is towards autistic people,
across what people describe as a spectrum.
(36:48):
My.
Requiring particular supports will bethere with him as much as it is with
some kind of boy genius who has beenpicked out for his computer skills.
And the neurodiversity paradigmstarts from one basis, and that
(37:13):
is that autistic people share in.
As soon as you get into classifyingautistic people, it works against us as
a community because we as a community aretrying to include those who communicate
(37:33):
in different ways and have differentexperiences of their lives that other
people see as intellectual disability
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: In. (37:47):
undefined
My only caveat would becontext is everything.
Absolute solidarity and commonalityof interest regardless of the
person who's a boy genius or the theperson who needs lots of support.
(38:08):
I think where distinctionscome into play are only when.
Gets their needs met and, and then it'sjust a sort of common sense, almost
doesn't need to be said thing that theboy genius will be reading textbooks
(38:30):
and maybe going to lectures, whereassomebody like my son will be taught
in a very different way and may neverbe able to read words individual.
It's very different from trying toseparate out a community who are
(38:51):
united in, in their interests and in
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (38:56):
their neurology.
I'm doing, I, I'm wondering aboutthe label piece that we seem to have
gotten the, onto the subject of, of.
Will be.
(39:17):
And with our understanding ofneurodiversity being we're all
different, are labels somethingthat we need or we'll need once
we get more people to understand?
Neurodiversity?
Such a good question, and I believe,
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: again, context is all. (39:35):
undefined
Ideally, none of us would label.
One another at all, would we?
'cause there is an impliedoversimplification, there's
an implied judgment.
I sadly think in a world of scarceresources where people need support, it's
(39:56):
often a, a diagnostic label that will.
A personal assistant or getsa free pass to travel and,
and at the moment, I, Ican't see way around it.
(40:17):
I also think about the autistic peopleI know for whom acquiring a diagnosis
as being very liberating and I would.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (40:37):
So the, the use of the label.
So having the label is somethingthat supports identity, it supports
a sense of self for that individual.
But for me, as a floor timer, thatlabel of autism or down syndrome,
(40:59):
or kabuki syndrome, whateverthe individuals or diagnosis is.
That doesn't tell me much.
It gives it a label, but I'm goingto look deeper to see what that
individual's profile is, how theyneed me to be in order for them to be
(41:22):
comfortable in an interaction with me.
And that doesn't come from a label.
It comes from being with
understanding of.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (41:34):
I would like to add something here before you speak
here, Virginia, when we talk aboutlabels and diagnoses, the policy of
autistic association and autisticradio is that you do not need a label
and that you do not need a diagnosis.
(41:55):
I no longer call myself.
Late identification or late identifiedautistic in the same way as I do not
call myself a SD Autistic Spectrumdisorder, I call myself autistic social
(42:16):
difference, acquiring the knowledge,an identity, and identification is.
Some people will find a label or adiagnosis, an extra Philip to that
strength in their own understanding, butthis is entirely unnecessary and so many
(42:40):
of the neurodivergent people that I knowin business in my community are not.
Neuro diversity themselves andapply it to themselves, and they're
welcome within autistic communities.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I think what you are suggesting, tell (43:00):
undefined
me if I'm wrong, is that it shouldbe up to an individual to choose
how they describe their themselves,their sense of themselves, and.
(43:23):
Maybe don't have the language or thefunctioning to have that choice in order
to live the life where they can thrive,they may need to have to access services,
support systems, reasonable adjustments,and society as it is now requires a needs.
(43:52):
Often it's the label.
Sadly, that is a shorthand to that.
They're not gonna getthe services without.
It really is what I'm saying.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (44:04):
True that for some individuals, that label
allows them to access what isneeded for them to be successful or.
That identity, if that individualis accepting that identity for
(44:28):
themselves, that's that's howthey're visualizing themselves.
But it doesn't give me theinformation that I need in order
to be with that person in a waythat feels comfortable to them.
It's just a label.
And so we need to digdeeper than those labels.
(44:48):
We need to find out how thatindividual likes their world to be.
And just having that labeldoesn't tell us a hundred
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: percent agree with you. (44:57):
undefined
When I think of my son or theautistic people I know, the label
has become utterly irrelevant.
It's them who they, what sense?
Humor is all sort.
It's a starting point in somecontext is what I would say.
(45:19):
And it can help some neurotypical peopleto make the reasonable adjustments
for other people's differences.
And it might be an explanation thatleads to greater understanding,
but it is a starting point onlyand at the end of the All of Us
to build a relationshipwith another human being.
(45:42):
We, we go with who they are, don't we?
As we gradually get to know themrather than how we describe them.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (45:49):
Absolutely.
And if we can in our, in our questfor neurodiversity understanding,
if we can also support theunderstanding of attunement and how
to be another person comfortable.
We've got a world where.
More people don't need that label inorder to understand an individual.
(46:15):
They can just attune towhat that individual needs.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: So there we are listeners. (46:18):
undefined
We've heard some different viewpoints.
Put forward to stimulateyour own thoughts.
Join us again where Dr. Colletteand Virginia will expand on.
(46:39):
And if you wish to contact news atautistic radio, do com to either put
your voice out there or to steer theconversation in different direction.
Please feel free to do so.
Thank you.
Our conversations here on autisticradio are personal and informal.
(46:59):
Please don't imply if somebodymentions an organization, they're
not representing that organization.
It's all personal comments.
They speak with theirown words for themselves.
Autistic radio is about us.
It's for us, and it's from us.
(47:22):
Autistic Radio is about you.
It's for you, and it can be from you.
We have every single Sunday dropin four, four 4:00 PM every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together,us talking community.
(47:48):
Every Sunday, Harry leads a fivefive 5:00 PM a discussion around
the Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry and.
(48:09):
The bigger picture, advocate, use us.
Speak to the world, your project,your idea, your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
(48:33):
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withautism professionals challenging
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
(48:55):
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
We need a favor to encourage us.
We need you to share us.
(49:17):
When you share us.
You give autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
When you repost on LinkedIn and Facebookand anywhere else, you are advocating
for everybody in the autistic community.
(49:40):
So pick the things that you arehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you from all of us.
We speak our words, we listen,we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:18):
Hello again.
It's lovely to know that somany of you are finding autistic
radio all around the world.
I'm very aware that we have a largecontingent of people listening to us
in North America whilst we come from.
(00:46):
Is country specific, but there'sa universality about the human
experience, and I want to speak todaywith two very valuable contributors to
research in autism and the practicalimplications of how autistic people are
(01:12):
in.
Colette Ryan, who currently is in Japan,establishing a school that is based on
principals closer to floor time than a BA.And we also have Dr. Virginia Bogle, who
(01:37):
has a long history of establishing first.
School based on a B, a principles.
And then she has, as the world hasprogressed, and as neurodiversity
has moved into a movement, shehas modified some of her original
thoughts, but without rejectingthe science of behaviorism because.
(02:09):
That in some way.
Correct.
As an introduction for you.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Yes. (02:14):
undefined
Thank you so much, Jules.
That is absolutely , where I find myself.
I think one caveat though is that Ithink when some advocates of behavior
analysis talk about their work as a. It'sas if there's an exclusivity around it.
(02:38):
I would also embrace othersciences, neurological science,
technical science, medical science.
Sometimes the disciplines competeand I think we have to talk
about science in its broad sense.
Behavioral science is just one way and a
(03:00):
ethical.
Human behavior, but we haveto look at all sorts of other
scientific contributors as well.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:11):
And Dr. Collette, when I introduced you, could you flesh
it out a little bit for the listeners
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (03:18):
I am living in, in Tokyo right now, which I absolutely love.
My work here is to floor time, which is a.
Bring it to Japan, bring it tothe school that's being developed
here, bringing it to parents toschools to provide an alternative
(03:43):
to more compliance-based education.
Compliance-based interventionthat's been used here.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:53):
So to both you, I'm give you some feedback from listening.
So to both of you, I'm gonna giveyou some feedback from our listeners.
You have cooperated with us on a number ofoccasions, both separately and together.
The perception is that you guys areopen to ideas in, in ways that other
(04:19):
people in the field of autism don't.
How much influence are you managingto gain over conventional thought
in the professions around autism?
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (04:41):
Well, first I'm gonna take that wonderful compliment that you
just gave, Virginia and I, I thoroughlyenjoy the times, Virginia and I.
I hope that I am open to listeningto other people's points of view.
(05:04):
My goal is to be able to, to determinewhat is needed, what does an individual
need, and if they need floor time,then we'll provide floor time.
But if that individual also needs somevisuals, bring in the teach model.
(05:26):
Let's bring in some of.
If the individual also needs a littlebit of self-regulation work, we
can bring in self reg, we can bringin the powerfully you approach.
So I, I think my goal is to determinewhat an individual needs and, and
support them and finding those things.
(05:48):
And if it means I need to be open-mindedto other approaches, then that's
what that individual needs from me.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I feel very similarly. (05:55):
undefined
There's always this intriguing factthat we've come from different inverted
comma brands, but actually it'salways so lovely talking with Colette
because there is so much overlap.
The individual need iswhat it's all about.
(06:17):
There is of course a sideline issue ofwho decides what the individual needs.
When it's an infant or a young child,parents and teachers are deemed
to be the sort of custodians ofunderstanding what someone needs.
And as they mature and get older,they acquire agency and are more
able to state or indicate whatthey believe their needs are.
(06:42):
So that in itself is, is anarea of potential debate.
Flexibility.
I mean, certainly the questionof how much we've managed to
influence others in our field.
I have noticed an enormous, enormouschange in the field of behavior analysis
(07:06):
in the UK in the just about 30 years.
Things that were seen to beroutine back in, for example, 1997
(07:26):
now are just not routine at all.
They're totally disregarded.
The neurodiversity movement in theUK has, as far as I can tell, being
embraced and certainly all communication.
Technology,
(07:49):
books, et cetera.
All these additional toolsand aids have been adopted.
People are working in a multidisciplinaryway to address sensory issues.
I do believe that the whole field isbecoming more openminded and humble.
(08:09):
And reflecting on what, if anything,a behavioral approach can offer an
individual at at one particular time.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (08:19):
I love what you said about who determines what an
individual needs and, and I thinkas a mentalist I look at development
to think about what the individualneeds, but as a floor timer.
I also look at what, what theindividual is really interested in.
(08:47):
They, I may think developmentallythey're ready to move on to a higher
capacity of development, but in thatindividual's mind, they're really
enjoying just working on engagement.
They're really loving this.
(09:07):
So I think you're right that we haveto figure out, not who decides, but
where that decision would come from.
What are the, what are the thingsthat we need in order to determine
what goes next for an individual?
So I really love that you brought that up.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Thank you. (09:25):
undefined
Thank you for our sharedview on what's important.
And I in turn.
One of the many things I've learned fromneurodivergent people is how crucial
the field of being interested is thetropic approach that some have written
(09:49):
about this idea of being passionatelyinterested in things, which is perhaps
a unique thing that really applieswhether someone is intellectually very.
Or very bright actually struggleswith learning like my son.
The, the capacity to be passionatelyinterested is a wonderful thing, and I
(10:14):
think if one doesn't work with someone'sinterests, one is likely not to be able
to engage in, in any of Reciproc exchange.
For the individual to be motivated tolearn if they're not being engaged.
(10:35):
I do however, recognize that noteveryone adheres to the idea of
mono tropism, and I, I wouldn'twant to do a whole session on it.
I, I just refer to it interms of the literature.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (10:58):
Who gets to decide if someone's interest is
worthwhile or not is something thatI've been reflecting on because there's
something here in Japan, there's a,there's this, it's called fandom.
You know, there's, there's people whoare passionately interested in anime or
(11:20):
just have these.
That that is not a good thing.
You know, being interested in trains,being interested in clocks, being who's,
who gets to decide if that interest isworthwhile or not, is something that I've
been reflecting on quite a bit lately.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (11:43):
There's a third wheel to this conversation, and that's
the community which I try represent.
The concept of mono tropism issomething that has been embraced by
(12:05):
both conventional thought and alsosome of the advocates in the world of
autism from an autistic perspective.
But when I speak to a number of autisticpeople I find actually that a majority of
autistic people reject mono tropism andsee it as a, a slur on their identity.
(12:32):
They see it as a method of dismissingus and a way of going back to old
and inflexibility.
Mono tropism it's not a done dealas far as the community goes.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (12:51):
I'm just thinking about using that as a label for someone
and it, it has a, a negative connotation.
We have given it a negative connotationfor describing someone who has a.
(13:13):
, I totally agree with you, Jules.
I, I don't think it's an important thing.
I don't think it's an appropriatething to label an individual, as
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I'm really interested to hear that (13:23):
undefined
it's being interpreted in this way.
All I can say is I personallyview it very positively.
Possibly stimming when I see my sonabsolutely fascinated as he currently
(13:46):
is with a rubber toy snake, and hewiggles it around in a particular way
and he's obviously not just gettinga sensory feedback, but he's seeing.
That he finds really fascinating, andI don't see that as a negative at all.
(14:08):
I actually love the fact that he, hesees it in that way, in a way that
probably, I, I don't, it, it doesalso lead me to, to reflect, sadly, on
how the language that been using for.
(14:32):
Intentionally positively andcan then mutate into an insult.
I'm thinking of the term mentalretardation, which initially was seen to
be used as a sort of neutral descriptorand then became very much a pejorative
(14:53):
thing in, in other fields I'm thinking of.
Is now changing tointellectual disability.
There's, there's so many ways inwhich a word mutates because the
wider society sees something as,as a slur when it's initially
(15:14):
coined in a, in a more neutral way.
And I, I'm just wondering if, ifMonetarism Monoism has suffered
the same fate as, as other
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (15:25):
labels.
I, I absolutely believe that it has,if you, if you think about describing
someone as having a narrowed interest ormaybe one or two narrowed interests that
don't allow them to have other interestsor get interested in other things
(15:46):
around them, I think that's a rathernegative way to interpret their behavior.
So I do think that it's, it hasdeveloped a negative connotation.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:00):
I like what you're saying there, Virginia, because
language is continuously developing andthere's always gonna be overlaps and
there's always gonna be sensitivitiesaround language, and there's always
gonna be language that is appropriatein one context, maybe a textbook on a
public.
(16:23):
The concept of Monoism has developed intoa label, a label of narrow-mindedness
effectively, but it's a concept that isembraced locally here in Scotland by a
particular group who advocate the son ofthe original professional who coined the.
(16:52):
Tried to have it out there asa concept in a positive manner.
I haven't yet managed to get a proponentof mono tropism to come and fully explain
so that we can move beyond the label.
And I, I hope in the futurethere will be somebody who can
(17:17):
speaken.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Both you and I Colette have (17:18):
undefined
set up schools which are linkedwith, you could say brands or
particular educational approaches.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: And I'm very ambivalent really (17:30):
undefined
about the value of that.
I think on the one hand, it's veryimportant to have approaches that
are open to evaluation and rigorous.
Rigorous monitoring, I suppose, andhigh standards, and often evaluations
(17:53):
require very consistent approach.
Otherwise, you never know if anoutcome links to the educational
approach or to completely other things,
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:02):
right?
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: On the other hand, sticking to (18:03):
undefined
a particular model is very muchagainst what you I both talked
about already, which is the need to.
Bring in new influences according tothe unique individual in front of us.
So I think there are pros andcons of nailing our colors to a
(18:27):
particular approach and, and likewise,researchers, some have said we
definitely need manuals if we're doingan evaluation trial and have said.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (18:43):
That as a floor timer, I, we have the flexibility
in our model to be able to bringin ideas that that maybe aren't
strict floor time approaches.
And just to describe a littlebit about the school started.
(19:13):
But it also has elements ofReggio Amelia in it, so it's
not strictly just floor time.
It's also, again, it, we're using visuals.
So it's, it's bringing insome of the teach model.
We're doing a lot with sensoryneeds, so we're bringing in, we have
(19:35):
several occupational therapists thatwork with us, so we're bringing in
what is needed for our students.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: That's very interesting to hear, and I (19:43):
undefined
suppose my supplementary question would bewhether the sort of, if I may say hardcore
floor time proponents would ever say,well, you are diluting it or you are, you
are just moving over to being eclectic.
(20:03):
I know when in the early days ofsetting up Treehouse, eclecticism
was a dirty word, you know?
Oh, the eclectic people, they,they're just a bit of this and that,
and they're working on guesswork.
Whereas the behavioral science allowsus to look at data and evidence
and, and base what we do on, on.
(20:33):
How, how can we be the best ofeclectic without losing maybe
some of the rigor that made usbelieve in, in the model in the
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (20:43):
first place.
And I think it's different for afloor timer than it would be for
someone doing more of a behavioralapproach, because as floor timer.
I don't believe that we, by bringingin, again, teach model sensory
(21:08):
integration, the different approachesthat we bring in as needed, I don't
think we're diluting the model.
However, if someone wanted tobring a BA into a floor time
classroom, then I would say.
(21:29):
You're dilu the floor time,because the, the floor time is very
different than the a, BA approach.
It it based on two different sciences,behaviorism or developmentalism.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: Could I come back on that? (21:44):
undefined
Because I would not want anyoneto think that contemporary A,
b, A is anything like what I.
Also my, my perception of contemporarya BA, certainly in the UK is that
(22:06):
it is very multidisciplinary.
It, it, it isn't impositional and it'sdevelopmentally informed throughout,
in a way that sort of crude early.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (22:29):
And I.
(23:13):
A child I.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (23:25):
Modern A BA has moved away and you are very much
speaking in the context of the uk.
And my experience as an autistic manlooking out into the world is very
different from that because what I seearound the world is that the kind of
(23:50):
values and opinions that you express.
Are an emerging minority, but it looks tome as though the expansion of a BA, not
just within a North America, but into allthe other continents around the world,
is happening in a very old fashioned
(24:17):
When India recently or when.
Non-government organizations, thewhole way that a BA was put across
there was training children to fitinto society to ensure that the
children of the middle classes wouldbe successful in the the capitalist.
(24:53):
Whilst there's a growing number of peoplewho are moving to this model that you
espouse, the reality worldwide is that theincrease in traditional A BA is bigger.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (25:08):
And Jules, I would, I would agree with that.
I'm seeing many individuals.
Than what Virginia is beautifullydescribing and would be lovely
if it was happening everywhere.
(25:28):
Unfortunately, it's not.
And as a floor timer, I want tobe able to look at how, how can
I support an individual to bethe very best person the best?
Wanna be not what societytells them they need to be.
(25:51):
And, and that means that compliancebased learning is not something
that I, I'm willing to include inthe floor time school that, that
we're having here in, in Tokyo.
And I.
(26:13):
And, and I would love if there weremore a, BA people who were thinking
the way that you're, I have to wonderthough, that if the a, b, a people are
starting to think more like floor timers.
Maybe they wanna come and befloor timers too, but, but if we
could think about how we can getVirginia's message further around.
(26:38):
Strict behavioral model.
You know, 20 to 40 hours a week of aBA is not necessary for little ones.
We have research that's showing usthat this is not necessary, so we
need to, to support others to hearhow Virginia and her colleagues
are embracing a different type of,
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: oh, thank you. (27:00):
undefined
We need all the support we can get.
I think, I mean, I do agree that.
The, the progression, the progressivemove within UK A BA is, is at possible
odds with how it's developing elsewhere.
I, I've said in, in my book thatit dawns on me that how things
(27:24):
are funded has part to play in.
The, the public sector, thelocal authority or the, or the,
the National Authority deem anintervention worthy of funding.
(27:45):
It's much less often than, thanit seems to be elsewhere in the
world to do with private insurancefunding or indeed, as you said.
And, and the, the public sectorethos for funding and intervention
is, is much more holistic.
(28:06):
It's about meeting needs, including, wellbased on how best for an individual to
thrive in, in whatever way is right for.
How will they get a good job in the futureor how will they fit Instream society?
My caveat though, would be around.
(28:32):
Fitting into mainstream society,we, we do not want individuals to be
deprived of access to communicationsuch that they become very distressed
and possibly destructive in theirbehaviors to others and to themselves.
So there are obviously areas where.
(28:52):
We want people to be feeling good aboutthemselves, not so distressed that they
have to resort to injury and so on.
So, but I would talk about beingcooperative rather than compliant.
I, I'm very proud of how myson, he's incredibly cooperative
and I don't think it's because.
(29:15):
But because he's learned that other peoplecan enable him to access what he needs
and to help him have a really good lifewhen his physical health problems allow.
So again, we come back to language.
I think compliance is ahorrible, horrible world.
You know, it might be true ifyou're working in the armed,
(29:38):
forget.
To, to thrive in, in the world.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (29:48):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
And I, and I think that as, as afloor timer and having what, what
amounts to probably a minusculeamount of sensory information,
sensory based understanding that I.
(30:12):
How can we support an individual to,as you say, be, be in that social
interaction, be feel good in thosesocial interactions while supporting
others, supporting that co co-partner?
Could we have them understandand attune to that individual
(30:34):
sensory needs, and would thatmake their ability to be social?
Easier.
And what that's gonna mean then isthat we need to support the predictably
developing world to understand individualsat a deeper level and to be willing to
(30:55):
attune to what they their partner needs.
And that's, I know, that's my wish.
That's my hope.
And I'm.
Able to attune, but I think that's noted.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: What you are saying is absolutely (31:13):
undefined
right for all that we're encouragingindividuals to be able to tolerate
things that are often barely tolerable.
There's a lot of wider societal workto be done to influence the social
and sensory environment that we all.
(31:37):
Recognizing that working on an individualfeels can seem quite pathologizing
if, if we're not also trying tochange the wider environment in which
young people have to grow up in.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (31:54):
Absolutely.
Virginia.
Well said.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (31:57):
I'd.
Present at the UK Society forBehavioral Analyst Conference.
Why Autistic Radio is soon topresent at the National PBS
Conference, the in Newcastle.
(32:19):
We as an autistic group, which tomodify the things that are out there
to support us, whatever their brand.
It doesn't feel possiblein the rest of the world.
(32:40):
So for the listeners in the rest ofthe world asking why we cooperate
with practitioners of behaviorismhere, it's because the scenario
here is developing differently.
And if.
(33:04):
Then it's possible that thatmight have a spread using the
neurodiversity paradigm further afield.
So if you are in the United States,or Canada or Australia and you are
thinking, what on earth is jus doinghere, please take that into consideration
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (33:25):
with.
Different in the UK than it'sin, say the US or in Australia
or in Japan or in the Ukraine.
Anywhere around the world.
(33:45):
How do we have, do we have differentunderstandings of neurodiversity?
I think that's such an interesting
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: question and. (33:53):
undefined
When I look back when my son wasdiagnosed, things are so different
already, and sometimes change feelsvery, very slow and disheartening.
(34:14):
But actually when I think that in 30years the language and understanding
around autism and interventionshas absolutely transformed, you
know, neurodiversity wasn't a.
It wasn't even a word, letalone a concept 30 years ago.
(34:36):
I think we're all stillevolving, aren't we?
And one of the things I was reflectingon before today's discussion was an idea
of autism's, plural, which is what someresearchers are now saying because breadth
of experience and personalities and needs.
(34:59):
And experiences of people allwho come under the neurodivergent
umbrella is so broad.
I, I think it's an open question asto where we're all headed, but I think
what's really, really important and,and I'm very grateful to Autistic
(35:20):
radio, is that these conversationshappen respectfully listening.
Humbly admitting where we havemade mistakes in the past.
I'm talking very much about myself and thelanguage I might have used 25 years ago,
and I just have to sort of hope that theneurodiversity movement, such as it is,
(35:44):
will go on teaching the rest of the world.
Many things about how.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (35:57):
What I see at the moment is a reverse happening.
What I see at the moment is autisticpeople, neurodiversity being brought
into the culture wars as we now callthem, and that's very risky for us.
All part of that can actually bewhat you described taking autism and.
(36:26):
Autistic people is reverting to functionallabel, and I wanna clearly say that as
a 60-year-old autistic man, my naturalempathy is towards autistic people,
across what people describe as a spectrum.
(36:48):
My.
Requiring particular supports will bethere with him as much as it is with
some kind of boy genius who has beenpicked out for his computer skills.
And the neurodiversity paradigmstarts from one basis, and that
(37:13):
is that autistic people share in.
As soon as you get into classifyingautistic people, it works against us as
a community because we as a community aretrying to include those who communicate
(37:33):
in different ways and have differentexperiences of their lives that other
people see as intellectual disability
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: In. (37:47):
undefined
My only caveat would becontext is everything.
Absolute solidarity and commonalityof interest regardless of the
person who's a boy genius or the theperson who needs lots of support.
(38:08):
I think where distinctionscome into play are only when.
Gets their needs met and, and then it'sjust a sort of common sense, almost
doesn't need to be said thing that theboy genius will be reading textbooks
(38:30):
and maybe going to lectures, whereassomebody like my son will be taught
in a very different way and may neverbe able to read words individual.
It's very different from trying toseparate out a community who are
(38:51):
united in, in their interests and in
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (38:56):
their neurology.
I'm doing, I, I'm wondering aboutthe label piece that we seem to have
gotten the, onto the subject of, of.
Will be.
(39:17):
And with our understanding ofneurodiversity being we're all
different, are labels somethingthat we need or we'll need once
we get more people to understand?
Neurodiversity?
Such a good question, and I believe,
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: again, context is all. (39:35):
undefined
Ideally, none of us would label.
One another at all, would we?
'cause there is an impliedoversimplification, there's
an implied judgment.
I sadly think in a world of scarceresources where people need support, it's
(39:56):
often a, a diagnostic label that will.
A personal assistant or getsa free pass to travel and,
and at the moment, I, Ican't see way around it.
(40:17):
I also think about the autistic peopleI know for whom acquiring a diagnosis
as being very liberating and I would.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (40:37):
So the, the use of the label.
So having the label is somethingthat supports identity, it supports
a sense of self for that individual.
But for me, as a floor timer, thatlabel of autism or down syndrome,
(40:59):
or kabuki syndrome, whateverthe individuals or diagnosis is.
That doesn't tell me much.
It gives it a label, but I'm goingto look deeper to see what that
individual's profile is, how theyneed me to be in order for them to be
(41:22):
comfortable in an interaction with me.
And that doesn't come from a label.
It comes from being with
understanding of.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (41:34):
I would like to add something here before you speak
here, Virginia, when we talk aboutlabels and diagnoses, the policy of
autistic association and autisticradio is that you do not need a label
and that you do not need a diagnosis.
(41:55):
I no longer call myself.
Late identification or late identifiedautistic in the same way as I do not
call myself a SD Autistic Spectrumdisorder, I call myself autistic social
(42:16):
difference, acquiring the knowledge,an identity, and identification is.
Some people will find a label or adiagnosis, an extra Philip to that
strength in their own understanding, butthis is entirely unnecessary and so many
(42:40):
of the neurodivergent people that I knowin business in my community are not.
Neuro diversity themselves andapply it to themselves, and they're
welcome within autistic communities.
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: I think what you are suggesting, tell (43:00):
undefined
me if I'm wrong, is that it shouldbe up to an individual to choose
how they describe their themselves,their sense of themselves, and.
(43:23):
Maybe don't have the language or thefunctioning to have that choice in order
to live the life where they can thrive,they may need to have to access services,
support systems, reasonable adjustments,and society as it is now requires a needs.
(43:52):
Often it's the label.
Sadly, that is a shorthand to that.
They're not gonna getthe services without.
It really is what I'm saying.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (44:04):
True that for some individuals, that label
allows them to access what isneeded for them to be successful or.
That identity, if that individualis accepting that identity for
(44:28):
themselves, that's that's howthey're visualizing themselves.
But it doesn't give me theinformation that I need in order
to be with that person in a waythat feels comfortable to them.
It's just a label.
And so we need to digdeeper than those labels.
(44:48):
We need to find out how thatindividual likes their world to be.
And just having that labeldoesn't tell us a hundred
Dr-Virginia-Bovell-Phd-Parent-ABA-Pioneer: percent agree with you. (44:57):
undefined
When I think of my son or theautistic people I know, the label
has become utterly irrelevant.
It's them who they, what sense?
Humor is all sort.
It's a starting point in somecontext is what I would say.
(45:19):
And it can help some neurotypical peopleto make the reasonable adjustments
for other people's differences.
And it might be an explanation thatleads to greater understanding,
but it is a starting point onlyand at the end of the All of Us
to build a relationshipwith another human being.
(45:42):
We, we go with who they are, don't we?
As we gradually get to know themrather than how we describe them.
Dr-Colette-Ryan-PhD (45:49):
Absolutely.
And if we can in our, in our questfor neurodiversity understanding,
if we can also support theunderstanding of attunement and how
to be another person comfortable.
We've got a world where.
More people don't need that label inorder to understand an individual.
(46:15):
They can just attune towhat that individual needs.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: So there we are listeners. (46:18):
undefined
We've heard some different viewpoints.
Put forward to stimulateyour own thoughts.
Join us again where Dr. Colletteand Virginia will expand on.
(46:39):
And if you wish to contact news atautistic radio, do com to either put
your voice out there or to steer theconversation in different direction.
Please feel free to do so.
Thank you.
Our conversations here on autisticradio are personal and informal.
(46:59):
Please don't imply if somebodymentions an organization, they're
not representing that organization.
It's all personal comments.
They speak with theirown words for themselves.
Autistic radio is about us.
It's for us, and it's from us.
(47:22):
Autistic Radio is about you.
It's for you, and it can be from you.
We have every single Sunday dropin four, four 4:00 PM every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together,us talking community.
(47:48):
Every Sunday, Harry leads a fivefive 5:00 PM a discussion around
the Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry and.
(48:09):
The bigger picture, advocate, use us.
Speak to the world, your project,your idea, your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
(48:33):
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withautism professionals challenging
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
(48:55):
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
We need a favor to encourage us.
We need you to share us.
(49:17):
When you share us.
You give autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
When you repost on LinkedIn and Facebookand anywhere else, you are advocating
for everybody in the autistic community.
(49:40):
So pick the things that you arehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you from all of us.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.